Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Ollie Leader joined by Maxwell Harrison, the newly elected reform UK county councillor for Sheppey and Harry Rayner, the Conservative county councillor for Malling West.
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00:00Hello and welcome to the
00:29Kent Politics Show, live here on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:36I'm Oli Leder, I'm not sure about you, but I'm still reeling from one of the most unprecedented
00:41results in Kent's political history, with the Reform UK taking Kent County Council and sweeping
00:48aside the Conservative Party who have been in control for 28 years. And while all eyes have
00:56been on the Vatican this week, last night it was white smoke above County Hall for a very different
01:02conclave, as the 57 new Reform councillors selected their leader. With tough financial choices and
01:11devolutions still on the horizon, will the new cohorts be able to keep the faith? To make
01:17sense of it all, I'm joined by Maxwell Harrison, the newly elected Reform County councillor for
01:22Shepi, last time we had you on the sofa, you were just a humble branch of Reform chairman,
01:30now you are being elected to Kent County Council. I'm just kind of curious, why do you think it's
01:36been such a meteoric rise for Reform here in the county? I think people have had enough of two
01:43political parties whom have not listened to the people of Kent, whilst our services have worsened,
01:50people found themselves without pennies and pounds in their pockets. It was a total rejection. It's
01:55the first time in modern British political history wherein the Conservative Party and the Labour Party
01:59were beaten, not only in just an amount of councillors, but also the national vote share. I've been saying for
02:05a long time, Oli, that something really is happening out there. And on 1st of May 2025, we saw a glimpse
02:11of it. We saw that actually there is a political revolt out there against a political establishment that
02:16has absolutely betrayed the British people. I promise you, this is just the very beginning.
02:21And talking of the beginning, this week has been new beginnings for the leader of Kent County Council,
02:28who was elected last night by the Reform councillor group. So let's hear a little bit about
02:36what she has to say for the future of KCC.
02:41What you have to understand is we'll be looking at the entire structure of this council and we will
02:46be looking for areas where we can save money. That could be in contracts that have been negotiated
02:51and we may need to go in and renegotiate those contracts. But this is going to be a work in
02:55progress. Don't expect me to come out and give you solutions.
02:59It felt like the first day of school. Big smiles from all 57 Reform UK councillors as they arrived
03:20at County Hall for the first time. They've taken control of KCC, an authority that's almost always
03:27been run by the Conservatives. But with the title of England's biggest local authority,
03:33they now face some of the country's biggest challenges. Before tackling those, a group leader
03:39needed. At a closed door meeting last night, six candidates battled for the top job. Reform
03:46councillors electing Lyndon Kempkaren. And we're not about just taking money away from services. What
03:52you have to understand is we'll be looking at the entire structure of this council and we will be
03:56looking for areas where we can save money. That could be in contracts that have been negotiated
04:02and we may need to go in and renegotiate those contracts. But this is going to be a work in
04:06progress. Don't expect me to come out and give you solutions straight away. I can't do that. This is my
04:12first day in a brand new job. And like anybody, first day in a brand new job, you wouldn't expect
04:17them to have all the answers. Born and raised in Kent, can Karen spend most of her career as a BBC
04:22journalist. Now the microphone is on her and she's promised to take inspiration from the United
04:28States by introducing a version of Doge to cut wasteful spending. So they need to explain a bit
04:34more about what they mean by this and whether actually it's a cover for making large cuts to
04:40public services. During the election, there was a radio hustings between the party leaders and then
04:46acting leader reforms that they were going to increase council tax by a smaller amount than
04:52the Conservatives were going to by about 2% less. But that would involve finding tens of millions of
04:58pounds of further cuts. Last week, party figurehead Nigel Farage pledged to end working from home for
05:06KCC staff. Now the question is, will Kim Karen follow through on that promise, even if it sparks
05:12backlash from the unions? Well, you know, unions will be unions and reform will be reform. Reform
05:19are in charge of this council. You have to understand that we want a massive majority. We have absolute
05:24ultimate control. There is an opposition, but I'm not sure, you know, they're going to actually be able
05:29to change anything we want to get through. So reform are in charge and reform will be doing what we want
05:33to do. The council chamber sits quietly today, but in the coming weeks, debate is expected.
05:39For now, Kim Karen is keeping her cards close to her chest, but she has confirmed the Ukrainian
05:46flag will be coming down. I think the fact that they're here and they've come here legally and
05:52they've made their lives in Britain, some of them, some of them have gone back home to Ukraine,
05:56others may stay for a long time. That's absolutely marvellous. They're amazing people,
06:00the Ukrainians. They've contributed amazingly to our society. That's great. A flag doesn't change any
06:05of that. Our next task is to appoint a cabinet for the remaining 56 councillors,
06:10a decision expected as early as next week. Gabriel Morris, County Hall.
06:18And as if by magic, we're joined by Harry Rayner, the Mauling West Conservative County
06:25councillor. Thank you for joining us during that package. I want to get your sense of what you make
06:31of the new reform leaders. It's the first reform leader that has not been from your party in 28
06:38years. What should they be bearing in mind going forward? Well, it's not the first reform leader
06:44because actually what you're referring to is the first KCC leader. Yes, you're absolutely right.
06:50And funnily enough, I actually remember well the joint leadership of Labour and Liberal in the mid-1990s,
06:56from 93 to 97. So I'm well aware and recall the circumstances there. Yes, it's, I have to say,
07:04a complete washout for the Conservatives to go from 57 down to 5 is a real drubbing at the hands
07:12of the electorate. And I recognise that. I'm kind of wondering why do you think your party
07:17suffered such heavy losses in the local elections? Because you have been the predominant party here
07:25in Kent's for decades now. Do you think that this is an existential threat for your party?
07:31Well, it's potentially it is, of course. But the real fact of the matter is, as I see it,
07:36that it's a real national trend right across the board. It wasn't just Kent that went. Although I
07:43have to say, in my view, that Kent suffered as a result of it being the only county in the south-east
07:48that was put forward for election. All the others joined Angela Rona and Jim McMahon's
07:55exceptions and were allowed not to go ahead with their elections as a result of local government
08:04reform and the morality arrangements. Do you think that benefited you, your party, this move towards
08:12devolution, that some places like Kent's have been left behind compared to that first wave? Do you
08:18think that benefited your party? No, I think so. And the fact that, you know, Starmer cancelled
08:23elections for five and a half million people, I think that spurred voters, particularly non-voters,
08:27to go out for reform. You know, reform is the alternative in British politics and particularly
08:31in Kent politics. And you're on the point that, you know, the Conservatives, you know, nationally,
08:36of course, they've gotten absolutely drubbing. But in Kent, actually, a large extent. You look at
08:39other county councils where they probably held on to 12 to 20. Kent was an absolute drubbing.
08:44And that's also because you look at what conservatism means. And unfortunately, you know,
08:49when you speak to voters nowadays in, you know, across Kent, the fact that immigration is so high,
08:54the fact that taxes have skyrocketed, the fact that in Kent County Council, council tax has gone up
08:5925% in five years and already 14,000 potholes have been, you know, registered. The quality,
09:05what we've had in KCC hasn't been up to scratch. That's why reform has now come in.
09:09And hopefully, it's on us now to ensure that people get the sort of services that they deserve.
09:14I'm wondering about that, because Roger Gough, the former leader of KCC,
09:18says more on the issue of national government impacting the failures during the COVID years,
09:24impacting here on Kent. There have been decisions that have been unpopular by the Conservative
09:29administration. We think of mill mead and seashells, the family hubs that face closure.
09:34We think of funding decisions around certain things.
09:36If you look at seashells and mill mead, I mean, the position we're there really was that the funding
09:42could only be given to the extent that the national government permitted the criteria.
09:49So, in other words, they so drew the criteria that the funding was extremely limited.
09:57It's a technical argument. I don't want to get into too much of that.
10:00But there's no question that there have been local issues, but I also say that reform will face those very much as well.
10:10The sort of thing that I have in mind, for example, is they have got to consider what they are going to do
10:15when the officers come along and say, we need to cut the number of the tips, for example, the household waste recycling centres.
10:27They come along and say, we need to cut the number of libraries from 99 down to significant numbers.
10:33If you want to reduce the council tax, you're going to have to reduce the sort of numbers on those items which are not statutory and those are amongst them.
10:47So, there are some hard decisions to be taken by reform on the funding as well come the future.
10:55Yeah, but that's why we're going to bring in an element of dogeness.
10:59I mean, if you talk about seashells, the fact that it got reduced by 84%, that's a willful political decision.
11:05And on Sheppie, where I represent, the fact that you've got children who have been allocated school placements two and a half hours away.
11:11I've seen the transcripts. I've seen the meetings. The Tories simply didn't fight hard enough.
11:16That's why they collapsed by 51% in Sheppie.
11:19So, we've got a lot of work. We've got a lot of work to do.
11:21I've got to come in here because we do have a break, but we'll be discussing a lot of these financial issues afterwards because I'm sure we heard from Lyndon.
11:28There is a lot of ideas about auditing the finances.
11:31Whether or not it's going to work, we'll find out after the break.
11:35And as well as, are we celebrating VE Day in the right way?
11:41Are we remembering the county's history? We're discussing all of that and more in a few minutes' time.
15:23And Harry Rayner, the Conservative County Councillor for Morling West.
15:26Thank you both for still joining me here in the studio.
15:30And let's delve into the financial issues facing Kent County Council.
15:34It's something that you knew firsthand, Harry, during your role in Cabinet.
15:39It's something that your partner had to learn about in the coming weeks and months.
15:45Perhaps this is a pretty good point here.
15:46Harry, what are some of the challenges that reform are going to find here?
15:50Because there's a lot of ring-fenced funding.
15:53There's lots of areas where they're not going to find a savings potentially that they're saying they are.
15:58Absolutely.
15:58And not only will they not find the savings, I fear.
16:01I mean, one wishes them all the best in their endeavours.
16:04Because, you know, we want Kent County Council to succeed overall.
16:10But the situation is, in particular, adult services.
16:13Adult services has, over recent years, significantly overrun its budget annually.
16:20And it's really difficult to get on top of it because it's a statutory obligation.
16:27It isn't something that you can easily control.
16:31The funding is made by younger social workers.
16:35And it's really difficult to control.
16:37And in particular because you've got a really large cohort of baby boomers.
16:44And I'm one of them.
16:45Of that age group that were born immediately after the Second World War, who are now becoming of an age that they require the services of Kent Adult Services.
16:57And in those circumstances, it's very difficult to control the costs.
17:02So, I think, Red's a good question of how are you going to get more blood from the stone in this case?
17:08We heard earlier from Lyndon that it's about auditing, about renegotiating contracts.
17:14But how is that actually going to save money when the money that might be saved will be pittance compared to the cost of adult social care and SEND spending?
17:24No, of course.
17:24And, you know, that's why Lyndon's absolutely right.
17:26Let's open the books and let's see the situation.
17:29But the books are already open.
17:30Yeah, no.
17:30The books are public to everyone.
17:31Yeah.
17:31But what we're going to do is find out what's going on in the contracts.
17:34People, you know, when I was knocking on door knocking in Sheppie and other places across Kent, people don't feel like they've got value for money, good value for money for what's going on.
17:41We've not made massive claims that we're going to get a chance on cut things.
17:44We're not going to do that.
17:45What we are going to do is ensure that KCC is as effective and efficient as possible.
17:49That's why we're going to have thorough investigations.
17:51We're not rushing into this.
17:53We're going to take our time, a methodical process, to ensure that we know exactly where the money is going, making sure it's going towards common sense, things that actually will make a real difference in people's lives.
18:03And then we'll see what we can do from there.
18:05It's going to be tough.
18:05No one is saying it's not going to be easy.
18:08But that's why, you know, Kent rejected the Tories.
18:10They don't want career politicians.
18:11You know, I didn't get into politics, you know, because I have an ego.
18:14I want to be prime minister.
18:15I got into politics because I had a health condition and I was completely left behind.
18:18We are new.
18:19We are newly elected people.
18:21Give us time.
18:22Allow us to grow within these roles.
18:23And from there, you'll see an actual change from people listening to what the residents want.
18:28It will be interesting to see because those are fine words, but actually I fear that they will be shattered upon the budget book.
18:38Let's be perfectly frank.
18:40The budget is known to anyone who wants to look at it.
18:42If you can read a set of local authority accounts, it's there on the KCC website.
18:47Auditors love it.
18:48You can look back on the Governance and Audit Committee, which is again held on the website.
18:53Every single one of them is webcast.
18:56At virtually every Governance and Audit Committee, the auditors are there.
19:02The chief auditor is there more frequently than the more juniors, but they are there and every year they are making a report.
19:12And often they are making supplementary reports during the year to the Governance and Audit Committee, to KCC's management.
19:19The facts are known, and in fact, the auditors have said that KCC is one of the best-run county councils over recent years.
19:30There have been blips, and I mentioned earlier Adult Social Services is one budget that needs to get greater control.
19:40But for the most part, the auditors have given a clean bill of health to KCC.
19:47Max, I want to put you in here, but I've also got to ask.
19:50We heard there that there are auditors already doing what you're saying you're going to be doing.
19:56What will your auditors be, how will they even be different?
19:59And also, with the re-tendering of contracts, how are you going to keep the costs down with that as well?
20:04Because isn't re-tendering also potentially a costly process too?
20:08Well, just before that, it's an interesting point made by Harry, because, of course, in 28 years, you've run Kent County Council into a debt of £740 million.
20:16Every single day, we're paying an interest daily payment of £84,000.
20:21It's all well and good saying your auditors think you're excellent.
20:23Unfortunately, the people of Kent last week or the week before said they completely disagreed.
20:28Yes, it's going to be difficult.
20:30We're not saying there's going to be tens of millions of pounds lying around.
20:32But what we have to make sure is that if there are contracts which are available to change and we can change them, we will change them.
20:39That's the point of bringing people who have actually had proper backgrounds, proper business-run mindsets to come in and make the real change that we need.
20:47No one's saying it's going to be easy.
20:48But as Lyndon said, we will find every penny and pound that we can and we will make sure it goes back directly into the people of Kent's pockets.
20:55Let's talk about the capital expenditure situation and the debt situation.
21:00Most of the debt to which we've referred, the net debt, was actually incurred many years ago when the government actually insisted that the local authorities took on the debt.
21:13They came up with a regime for repayment which was actually abolished in the early 2000s.
21:20And Kent has fought, KCC has fought, to get the situation rectified.
21:28But having said that, you know, over the last seven years, the debt has been repaid annually.
21:35The net debt has been reducing year in, year out to bring it to sort of...
21:40And also, if you compare it, it's only about 40% of the total turnover of KCC of about $2 billion.
21:50And that's not unreasonable, given the size.
21:54However, I entirely agree debt should be reduced further.
21:58I worked hard to make sure that it would be.
22:02And had I been in the position of a cabinet member for finance, that would be certainly one of my priorities.
22:09It's a big issue going forward.
22:11It's not the only issue.
22:12We actually caught up with the leader of your party, Harrison, last week to discuss what things might be slightly different about reform here in the UK.
22:22This is Nigel Farage, the leader of Reform UK.
22:24If you think you can work from home, under us, you might find yourself having quite a short, sharp conversation.
22:34And if you're working in DEI or climate change for the county, then perhaps alternative employment is where you should be looking.
22:40We want to slim down the size of local government to get it back to the basics
22:44and to make sure that council taxpayers start to get better value for money.
22:50So job cuts are on the way, yeah?
22:52Well, there may well be job cuts in areas like DEI.
22:54How many do you think?
22:55In areas, hey, we haven't looked at the books yet.
22:58I think what's interesting about that is that typically hiring and firing are not the jobs of councillors.
23:07Under the KCC constitution, a councillor couldn't fire anyone, regardless of their role.
23:13And from my understanding, there's not even a DEI officer within KCC.
23:19Correct.
23:20So why is your leader of your party being so disingenuous with voters?
23:26Well, the point is people don't want ideologies coming into Kane County Council.
23:30They want to ensure there's actual common sense.
23:32If people are working from home, and when I was at KCC yesterday speaking to officials within the county council itself,
23:40it's clear that a lot of people are working from home.
23:43We know that the productivity rates are better in the office compared to when you're at home.
23:47People want to feel like KCC is effective and efficient, and frankly, the services that we've had thus far simply isn't the case.
23:55So if working from home is so bad, why is your party putting up jobs for southeast campaign managers that require working from home?
24:03Surely if productivity is worse, why is your party engaging in working from home practices?
24:07It's totally and utterly erroneous.
24:09All those positions are on the ground.
24:11They help people run the campaigns.
24:12We know that the Tories don't know how to run a campaign.
24:14That's why they couldn't get any activists out before the election.
24:18We have got people helping on the ground to make sure that we are fighting fit, getting the data, ensuring that we're getting leaflets out.
24:24So they're not working from home.
24:25These aren't people in their bed lounging with a cup of tea.
24:28These are people actively going out and speaking to voters.
24:30That's making an impact already.
24:32That's why we won 57 seats, and that's why we're going to win the next general election.
24:36I'm wondering, Harry, what do you make of all of what Nigel Fry said there?
24:40Because there's lots of big words, and as you're an experienced councillor, you've been a county councillor since 2017,
24:45so you know how Kent County Council operates, the rules, the ins and outs that people potentially may not at home realise.
24:53What do you make of what he said?
24:54Well, I mean, I'll go even further.
24:56Never mind since 2017.
24:57I was first elected to Tunbridge and Mauling Borough Council in 1985, so I've been a councillor for pretty well continuously for 40 years,
25:06at all levels, at parish, at borough and at county.
25:10And I have to say to you, with the best will in the world, that's disingenuous of what Nigel Farage said there.
25:16It's outside the control of members, and frankly, the position of staff is taken by full-time officers,
25:30with the exception of one or two of the senior officers where, through personnel committee,
25:35you would expect senior finance officers, senior chief executive and so on, there is a degree of control there.
25:43But certainly, with regard to deciding whether people have got it in their contract,
25:50that they can work from home in their employment contract, then it's a question of renegotiating.
25:56It's not a question of just dismissing the situation overnight.
26:00Interesting. You know, I heard yesterday, I don't say it's actual fact,
26:05but my understanding is 22 social workers have left since reform was addressed.
26:11Now, 22 social workers working for KCC means that actually you're going to have to pay agency staff to replace them.
26:19And just at this point, because we're about to lead the programme now,
26:24Harrison, just in a sentence, do you want to respond to anything Harry said there?
26:28What's disingenuous is the Tories coming out saying that we're happy to fight the election
26:31when we know they did everything to thwart the elections in Kent.
26:34They tried to stop it. That's why we've come in.
26:37That's why we won. That's why Lyndon Kim Caron will lead us to ensure that people in Kent
26:41have got the best value for money. It's utter nonsense.
26:44I'm sure you'll both agree to disagree on that point.
26:46No time for VE Day, I'm afraid. Catch Kent tonight later for more on that.
26:49Take care.
26:50Yeah, bye.
27:11Bye.
27:12Bye.
27:12Bye.
27:15Bye.
27:15Bye.
27:16Bye.
27:19Bye.
27:19Bye.