The opium poppy flower continues to influence history and the opium wars are cyclic, says celebrated author Amitav Ghosh. In an exclusive interview with Rashmi Vasudeva, Ghosh speaks about the history, climate change, politics and the deep connections that run within these.
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00:00 You know for most Indians, China just exists as a great blankness.
00:05 In terms of tea, we think of tea as Indian, don't we?
00:10 The relationship between India and China has been so much mediated through plants.
00:14 Tea in the first instance and then opium, you know.
00:18 It's a sort of modern way of thinking that places humans absolutely at the centre of everything, you know.
00:26 Where all history is just about humans and in fact what the story of opium shows us is exactly the opposite.
00:33 You know how frail humans are, how fragile a human society is and how easily it can be undone.
00:40 Hello everyone.
00:48 Celebrated author, essayist and anthropologist Amitav Ghosh's new work 'Smoke and Ashes' was released last week.
00:55 We are delighted to have Mr. Ghosh here with us today.
00:58 Who is hopefully going to tell us more about the hidden histories of opium as he calls it.
01:03 Welcome Mr. Ghosh. Wonderful to chat with you.
01:06 Thank you.
01:07 Thank you very much.
01:08 It's a great pleasure to be here talking to you and thank you for having me.
01:12 I'll begin with 'Smoke and Ashes'.
01:15 In the beginning you mentioned that China was this vast blank space, you know.
01:19 Hovering around India in the maps and there could be dragons and no one would blink.
01:23 You know how relatable this statement is for most of us across generations.
01:28 We know very little about China but we are unsurprised about it.
01:32 That's right.
01:33 But you say that this is not because of a lack of curiosity on our part but it's because of this barriers that have been created by patterns in global history as you put it.
01:42 Could you please elaborate a bit on this for us?
01:45 Well, in the first place I think it is really the case as you say that you know for most Indians there's a complete, there's in the first place complete ignorance about China.
01:56 And a lot of stereotypes you know about China, Chinese food etc.
02:03 But very little curiosity about the history, about the culture, about all of that.
02:09 So that Indians are to a quite astonishing degree really just ignorant of what exists.
02:16 You know this was the case with me.
02:18 But why do you think that is so?
02:21 What are these mental barriers that you are talking about and how did that get implanted?
02:25 Yeah and I think they exist around the world.
02:30 I mean what I'm saying about India is also true of most countries you know that China just exists as a great blankness.
02:38 So I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that in as much as Indians engage with the world it's almost always in relation to the West.
02:48 It's also because in our history textbooks we don't really read much about China.
02:52 We absolutely don't.
02:54 We read about you know British kings and so on.
02:57 And all of us are unaware that you know there was someone called the Qianlong Emperor who was actually one of the most important figures in world history.
03:08 I mean he created a modern China as it is you know in a sense.
03:13 And he had a deep interest in India.
03:16 He wrote a book about India in fact.
03:18 Yeah all of this is completely unknown to us which is a strange thing I think.
03:23 And it's only because of tea or something silk or something that's the only thing that we talk about when we say China.
03:29 We say silk maybe but in terms of tea we think of tea as Indian.
03:34 Don't we?
03:35 Yeah yeah yeah.
03:36 I mean that's such a strange thing because tea of course came to us from China you know and it's absolutely a Chinese thing.
03:44 So that brings me to what you say further in the chapter about you know you plant this very fascinating thought
03:50 that plants play a very powerful role you know in shaping the culture and history of the world as such.
03:57 But when you grow up mostly thinking that it's human agency in history.
04:01 This is a thought that you know kind of confuses you, makes you take a step back.
04:05 You know can you expand on this whether it is tea or opium.
04:09 How much unlearning you think is required for us to grasp this aspect that plants can play a powerful role.
04:16 Yeah it's a very important, it's a very strange thing you know.
04:21 It's a sort of modern way of thinking that places humans absolutely at the center of everything you know.
04:29 Where all history is just about humans.
04:32 It really I mean until quite recently historians hardly paid attention you know to all these other entities that surround us.
04:41 But you know it's if you read the Mahabharata or the Ramayana in them you'll see that non-humans play such an enormous role.
04:50 I mean the Mahabharata begins with snakes you know and snakes play such an important part in the Mahabharata repeatedly you know.
04:59 Bhim is saved by the king of snakes you know.
05:05 Similarly plants play such an important part in the Mahabharata you know.
05:11 You know so many flowers appear miraculously, plants appear miraculously.
05:20 So this is specifically a modern way of thinking where we stop paying attention to all the non-human kinds of entities that surround us.
05:29 But yet if you take a step back and think about it in fact I mean you know the relationship between India and China has been so much mediated through plants.
05:40 Tea in the first instance and then opium you know.
05:44 So but this has been mediated by western powers that's why.
05:48 Yes.
05:49 That's probably why as you say perhaps this part of history is hidden.
05:53 That's right.
05:54 That's right because it's a part of a certain colonial history and also you know the struggle against opium,
06:01 the struggle to sort of limit the production of opium in India, the consumption of opium etc.
06:09 The struggle to undo the British opium regime played a very important part in our history.
06:16 You know in national history from the 1880s onwards.
06:20 And I suppose associated with that there became a kind of stigma attached to this whole history so that we never learn about it.
06:29 Yeah.
06:30 You know we are never told about it and yet you know this plant played an enormously important role.
06:37 It's almost like it's almost the same way like genocides and you know are hidden in history because of the victor, it's the victor's history.
06:44 It's the victor's history that's right.
06:46 Yes.
06:47 So coming to opium.
06:50 In this case I'll say it's not clear who the victor is.
06:53 Yes, yes that's true.
06:55 But coming to opium itself which is what the Smoke and Ashes book is about,
07:00 you said you had done quite a bit of research and then you had second thoughts about actually going ahead with the Ibis Trilogy
07:07 and writing the book because you thought it's a very bleak and unnerving story as you put it.
07:13 But then you convinced yourself because you were convinced about the vitality of earth.
07:18 You talk about earth as something living, breathing, living entity you know.
07:22 Is that right?
07:23 Yeah and I think that's now universally accepted.
07:27 I mean you know even by scientists it's very very clear that the earth is in fact a living entity that we have to deal with
07:35 and the fact that we didn't realize this for such a long time is really a profound indictment of the ways in which we've approached life on earth.
07:46 In that sense do you think this is really like a deadly game you know between human hubris
07:51 and what you call as the power and intelligence of poppy for that matter.
07:55 Yeah absolutely and the poppy is just one.
07:58 I mean there are many many other entities that are also involved.
08:01 So that was one of the reasons why I felt it very important to finish the book
08:06 even though in a sense the subject is so distasteful you know.
08:10 Because it's really important to recognize two things.
08:15 One is that you know we tell this story as you say with humans at the center
08:23 and out of that grows a certain idea that humans are omnipotent,
08:27 that we are all powerful, that we sort of run the earth and so on.
08:32 And in fact what the story of opium shows us is exactly the opposite.
08:36 You know how frail humans are, how fragile a human society is and how easily it can be undone.
08:43 You know so that's one reason why I think it's very important to understand this.
08:48 You know because that is the wider story of the global crisis that we are seeing now.
08:53 The global environmental crisis you know which is now you know this summer especially
09:01 it's become clear that you know this is the greatest challenge that we'll ever face.
09:06 So that was certainly one of the reasons why I felt it very important to write this book.
09:12 The second reason is that in relation to the opium poppy more than in most other circumstances
09:20 we can see very clearly how this flower just has influenced history and continues to influence history.
09:29 Yeah in fact it's very chilling the way your predictions about opium repeating cycles in history
09:36 is coming true in Manipur for instance.
09:38 Absolutely.
09:39 You know the media academics are all claiming that it's because of poppy cultivation in the hills
09:44 and the chief minister's war on drugs so-called war on drugs that's causing the violence.
09:48 Yeah and it absolutely has to be taken into account that in fact all the communities of Manipur
09:56 are involved in this trade.
09:58 You know it's not this trade is not associated with any one community.
10:03 It's associated with all of them and I think in this case you see more clearly than any other
10:09 the ways in which opium can really undermine all sorts of social structures you know.
10:18 Because that's really what it's done. It's completely undermined the state.
10:22 And you know because opium creates so much money it brings in huge amounts of armaments.
10:29 This is happening now in America.
10:31 Yes in Mexico.
10:32 In Mexico the Mexican drug cartels are now you know a lot of the significant proportion of the arms
10:40 that have been sent to Ukraine have ended up now in the control of drug cartels you know.
10:48 But then isn't it rather tragic that this the source of all this violence is still opium in these cases
10:55 but still the world is largely unaware of it.
10:58 Yes you know it's not so much that the world is unaware of it.
11:02 The world has no way of thinking about it I think.
11:05 You know the world just thinks of criminal networks and so on.
11:10 It doesn't sort of really recognize the ways in which you know this substance
11:15 inserts itself into society and starts undoing you know social structures.
11:21 Because it creates incredible corruption wherever it goes.
11:25 And this is true of America. It's true of Europe. It's true globally.
11:30 Is there any way to break this pattern of this cycle that you talk about this repetitive cycle of darkness
11:36 association of darkness of opium with humanity that you put.
11:40 Is there any way to break this pattern?
11:42 Yes the pattern has was broken you know between 1880s and let's say 1930 1940
11:52 because of the power of national of anti-imperialist movements across the globe really.
11:58 I mean you know Indonesia managed to break that cycle.
12:03 India also managed to break that cycle but most of all China broke it you know
12:08 very definitely round about 1950.
12:11 How did they do that?
12:12 Well you know in China from the 1880s onwards there was a widespread popular movement against opium.
12:20 You know because opium was a completely destroying the society and many women's groups etc.
12:26 came together to fight against the opium traffic.
12:30 And similarly was the case in India where many you know women activists and so on joined in the struggle.
12:37 So it was really just at the level of popular movements you know popular movements came together
12:44 in order to break the cycle.
12:46 But I don't think at this point in relation to opium that such a movement is going to be possible ever again.
12:58 You know because unfortunately the opioid crisis that we are seeing today is occurring in the context of many other crises you know.
13:07 We are in a world that's where we see many intersecting crises you know.
13:12 And the environmental crisis is one which is not just climate change it's also biodiversity loss etc.
13:19 We see and you know we see today a political crisis you know globally of an unprecedented scale.
13:29 I mean who would have thought that you know that a fascist party essentially could be voted into power in Italy.
13:36 You know as it's happened and I think it's just the beginning.
13:40 We're going to see far right parties coming into power across Europe and across America.
13:46 And that will again fuel imperialism and the kind of you know the opium hegemony as you put it.
13:52 That's right.
13:53 So when you wrote you know The Great Derangement it was in 2016 you were lamenting that very few fiction writers actually you know are
14:02 tackling this most pressing issue of our times.
14:05 Seven years almost hence you think things have changed?
14:09 Yes I do think things have changed.
14:11 I think a lot more is being written about these subjects now than was the case before.
14:16 I can tell you that personally I get like two or three manuscripts every week.
14:22 You know people send me they write to me saying you know your book inspired me to write this book.
14:28 So now you have to read my book which unfortunately is not always possible.
14:33 But you think it's because climate change itself in these past seven years has become a more of a spectacle you know
14:38 and frighteningly so.
14:39 Absolutely.
14:40 Is that what is you know asking people?
14:42 That's a large part of it.
14:43 So it's not just that writers or my book or anything.
14:46 It's actually the earth is showing us you know.
14:50 It's telling us you know that this is happening.
14:53 Right.
14:54 But it's also you know like everything else now everything is Instagramized and you know
15:00 climate fiction has also been labeled cli-fi and do you think it will kind of dissipate into
15:06 triviality if fiction writers start focusing more on you know climate change related issues?
15:13 I think if they think of writing something called cli-fi then yes it will dissipate into triviality.
15:20 You know because what is happening in the world is not about any genre.
15:26 It's not you know it's not fantasy.
15:30 You know it's the reality that surrounds us you know.
15:34 And I think that's where we have to try and break that cycle and recognize that this is not
15:40 this is not something exceptional.
15:42 It's now the reality that we live in and we have to take this reality into account.
15:46 How do you prevent them from making into something sensational?
15:49 It's because climate change discourse is always either very skeptical or extremely sensational.
15:54 There is no middle ground yet.
15:56 I think that middle ground is emerging.
15:59 Look in the first place let's accept that climate change is sensational.
16:05 I mean the things that are happening are completely sensational.
16:09 I mean I don't know if you saw in the news day before yesterday there was a tornado in Milan
16:15 which has never happened before.
16:18 There were these floods near Milan where these streets turned into rivers of hail.
16:26 You know massive hailstones like this.
16:29 I mean if you got hit by one of them it would probably kill you.
16:31 You know just floating down the streets.
16:34 And we see this we see all of this now happening in front of our eyes.
16:39 Yes Uttarakhand for instance.
16:41 But see you know this is one thing that we have to pay attention to.
16:45 It's not just climate change.
16:47 It's also a lot of other anthropogenic impacts you know.
16:52 So in Uttarakhand of course there's climate change but most of all it's unplanned development of various kinds.
16:59 You've seen this in Bangalore.
17:01 You know I mean Bangalore used to have what 300 lakes.
17:05 They've all been filled in and turned into this.
17:09 But you know water has a memory.
17:11 Water will come back and it will come and take the place.
17:13 Just as the earth has.
17:14 Exactly.
17:15 In Chennai we see so clearly it was just crazy unplanned development.
17:20 You know in areas that had previously been wetlands and so on you know.
17:27 So it's very important to recognize that we are making things worse.
17:31 Instead of trying to adapt to these changes we are just carrying on as usual.
17:36 Finally I'm just curious to know you are an anthropologist.
17:40 And anthropology is you know multidisciplinary in nature.
17:43 So how did you get that impetus to you know collect all these different strands like global inequality.
17:49 Trade hegemony and climate crisis together.
17:52 Was it anthropological in a sense in your mind.
17:56 How did how did when did you start delving deeply into this climate crisis issue.
18:01 Was there any trigger as such.
18:03 Yeah I think the trigger for me was when I started doing the research for my book The Hungry Tide.
18:09 You know I spent I spent a lot of time in the Sundarbans at that time.
18:14 And it was already clear then that there were massive impacts.
18:18 You know and then over the years it just grew worse and worse.
18:22 And now you can see so clearly you know how what the impacts are in the Sundarbans.
18:27 So that was certainly the beginning of my interest in these issues.
18:31 Thank you so much.
18:32 Thank you.
18:33 Thank you for speaking to you.
18:34 Thank you so much for having me.
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