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00:00 Hi there, for the 718th time,
00:03 we present Camaro versus Mustang.
00:06 That's gotten a little stale, hasn't it?
00:12 Now that's more like it.
00:17 Breaking the deck.
00:24 Yes, please.
00:26 Yeah, buddy.
00:29 (laughing)
00:31 Throwing off the wings, give me all you got.
00:35 Jonathan.
00:39 Yes, Mr. Camiso.
00:40 Remember the last head-to-head we did
00:42 with the Viper ACR and the Corvette 06?
00:45 Quite, those were fun cars.
00:47 Therein lies the problem.
00:48 There's been some chatter on the internet
00:51 that we might have had a little bit too much fun
00:53 making that video.
00:54 We were cackling like schoolgirls.
00:56 Right, and it seems that that indicated to them
00:59 that we haven't, in fact, been reviewing cars
01:01 professionally for decades.
01:03 This episode, we need to review these cars
01:05 on a purely objective basis, not with our opinions,
01:08 and not have any enjoyment whatsoever.
01:11 Sir, to no laughing, ever.
01:14 I think we have to discuss the $81,000 Gorilla in the room.
01:22 $81,000 being the sticker price of the M4
01:24 that we're testing.
01:25 And the Camaro sits at about $46,000.
01:27 We have a $35,000 price difference between two cars.
01:30 And normally, you wouldn't even review cars like that,
01:32 except for one thing.
01:33 If you look at the performance numbers of these two cars,
01:36 they're near identical.
01:38 They are identical.
01:39 In fact, I have them right here.
01:40 The BMW does zero to 60 in 4.2 seconds.
01:44 The Camaro is 4.1, within the noise.
01:47 Quarter mile, 12.5 at 116.5,
01:50 versus 12.4 at 115.8, within the noise.
01:53 They're identical.
01:54 Speaking of identical, figure eight, 24.1.
01:58 That's great.
01:59 The only objective measure
02:00 where there may be some difference is in braking distance.
02:02 There's six feet between the two,
02:04 which is right outside of what we would consider the noise.
02:07 So in all of our instrumented tests,
02:09 the cars are identical.
02:10 So effectively, these two cars
02:13 are right on top of each other.
02:14 In our instrumented testing.
02:16 Those numbers are recorded in an ideal environment.
02:18 Chris Walton, our test driver,
02:20 he's been launching cars in a straight line,
02:22 10 at a time, once a week, for 20 years.
02:25 Things are very different when you're at a stoplight.
02:28 (upbeat music)
02:30 All right, a little inside baseball.
02:50 In order to make a 10 second long video
02:52 of that drag race, it takes about 75 launches.
02:55 And we did it 75 times.
02:57 Then of those 75 times, the Camaro won 68 of them.
03:00 Right, and that just means that even though
03:02 the test numbers are right on top of each other,
03:04 in the real world, that's the quicker car.
03:07 But I do want to say one nice thing about the BMW,
03:10 and that is when you get the launch right,
03:12 man, it's awesome.
03:14 And it's fighting you though.
03:15 I mean, if you launch it at like 1200 RPM,
03:17 you're going to bog it,
03:18 then you have to wait for the turbo lag.
03:19 If you launch it at too high of an engine RPM,
03:22 like 1200 and one RPM, you incinerate the rear tires.
03:25 And then a quick one to two shift
03:28 will result in a big nasty grind.
03:30 If you manage that shift quick enough
03:32 and get the clutch out too quickly,
03:34 then you incinerate the tires again in second gear.
03:36 - I never felt in the Camaro I got that perfect launch,
03:39 but it always felt like I was about 85 to 90% there.
03:42 And-- - It was consistent.
03:44 - It was consistent and it didn't matter
03:45 where I was in the rev range.
03:46 Like if I had a great launch,
03:48 it was at 3000 and climbing, it helped me out.
03:50 If I revved it too much, I was at 6000,
03:52 it would mitigate it and it was just, it was fast.
03:55 It wanted the car to go faster.
03:56 Whereas--
03:58 - If you tried to race one of those things at a red light,
04:01 - Yeah. - Not going to happen.
04:03 - Three different nannies turn on to like mitigate wheel spin,
04:06 cut power, do this.
04:07 - It's got too much power for the available traction.
04:10 So I think it's pretty clear that
04:12 in any sort of real world drag race
04:14 or any sort of stoplight drags, this is the faster car.
04:18 But unless you live in the Midwest,
04:19 there's this thing called corners.
04:21 And I think both of these cars would be quicker to 60,
04:24 for example, if they had all wheel drive.
04:25 But rear wheel drive is sort of a defining feature
04:28 of sports cars and muscle cars.
04:30 And it's all about fun, not necessarily numbers, right?
04:33 So I think we need to find a corner
04:35 and see how well the cars drift.
04:38 - If I may translate,
04:40 Jason has spent a large portion of his life
04:42 developing a completely useless skill,
04:45 which he would now like to show off for you.
04:47 - Just like you've spent your entire career
04:49 developing the skill of judging people and things.
04:52 So I'm gonna go onto the skid pad and do a donut,
04:55 something you're very good at judging.
04:56 - I am an expert at judging donuts.
04:58 - Right?
04:59 - Serious review.
05:00 - Scientific, no fun.
05:01 (upbeat music)
05:04 (car engine revving)
05:07 - Six.
05:27 - All right, much better.
05:32 You didn't get a 10
05:33 'cause it was a little rough in the beginning,
05:35 but I hate to admit it, you picked it up beautifully.
05:38 - Why, thank you.
05:39 Rough in the beginning because of turbo lag.
05:41 So what I wind up doing is clutch kicking it in second gear.
05:44 That gets the drift started.
05:45 But once the drift has started,
05:47 man, your right foot is 100% correlated to yaw angle,
05:50 more throttle, more drift.
05:51 It's a 10 out of 10, perfect drifter.
05:54 - Fascinating, go get the Chevy.
05:55 (upbeat music)
06:00 (car engine revving)
06:03 - I love you.
06:07 (laughing)
06:09 (car engine revving)
06:12 - Ah, there we go.
06:27 - Well, while I like the smoke production better
06:31 in this car, it really looks like you were struggling more.
06:34 The BMW was just, you were just so balanced.
06:36 It was just like watching a circle being carved.
06:39 And this one looked like you were fighting it,
06:40 going more steering input, less throttle maintenance.
06:44 - Yeah, and I thought actually
06:45 the naturally aspirated engine
06:46 was gonna be easier to modulate,
06:47 but this car wants to pull itself straight.
06:50 So you are fighting a little bit with it.
06:52 Surprisingly, the advantage is slight,
06:54 but it goes to the BMW.
06:56 I'm not sure what we've learned, but let's move on.
06:59 - I think what we should do is put them both together
07:03 on a racetrack.
07:04 And of course we can't do that.
07:06 That would be way too much fun.
07:07 So we need Randy to get in the car and set a lap time.
07:09 (car engine revving)
07:15 - I'm at Streets of Willow Springs
07:21 in the latest model BMW M4.
07:24 This one does not have the optional adjustable shocks,
07:28 but it does have a twin turbo six
07:31 that has a tremendous amount of mid range torque.
07:33 Very, very impressive.
07:36 Where it does annoy me is when I shift
07:38 from second to third on the straightaway.
07:40 We come off the corner,
07:42 put that power down with a little oversteer.
07:44 There, took that long on the shift to get full power back.
07:50 Big carbon brakes on the M4.
07:53 It's an optional package.
07:55 And once they get a little heat in them,
07:57 stop just great.
07:58 Especially the initial bite.
08:00 Boom, just pulls the speed off the car.
08:03 It's a little soft with the unadjustable shocks.
08:06 They've got to try to work well on the street
08:09 and on the track.
08:11 Ends up being a little soft
08:12 and it makes the ABS highly intervene.
08:16 But hey, it's not a race car,
08:19 but it is a very capable and enjoyable track car.
08:22 I'll tell ya.
08:23 Look at that, at 3,800 RPM,
08:27 the M4 is just rocking.
08:29 The turbos give it a very broad torque curve.
08:32 I like this BMW M4 better than I did in the past.
08:36 It's an improvement.
08:37 Now it's time to go get in the all new Camaro SS,
08:41 see how it measures up to a long time class leader.
08:45 Oh yeah.
08:51 The Chevy V8.
08:52 And an all new 2016 Camaro SS.
08:56 I've been dying to get my hands on this car
08:58 because I've driven the Cadillac ATS a lot.
09:01 It's the same chassis and the ATS is really good.
09:05 I love the rumble of the Camaro.
09:08 I mean, if we have a singing contest,
09:11 the Camaro wins over the BMW.
09:13 Little more mid-corner understeer in the Camaro
09:17 than in the BMW.
09:20 The Camaro is better further off the corner
09:23 at putting power down.
09:24 The BMW's better on the initial.
09:27 Could be just the turbo.
09:29 It has that, eh, about a three and a half
09:33 to a four understeer on a scale of 10.
09:35 The BMW's down there around a one or two.
09:38 That makes the Camaro easier to drive fast in the BMW.
09:42 Don't need a lot of shifting with the broad power band.
09:45 And even though the BMW's turbo engine has very little lag,
09:50 on the shifts especially, it's very obvious.
09:53 The power in the Camaro comes back immediately.
09:55 It is right there.
09:57 Steering is quick ratio.
09:59 I really like that.
10:01 Shifter is a little bit more mechanical than the BMW.
10:04 It's a great shifter.
10:06 Man, it has been a great introduction to these cars.
10:10 They're just a ball having a good time.
10:13 I think maybe I was going a little quicker with the BMW.
10:17 I like the tires too.
10:19 The Camaro's an easier car to drive fast.
10:22 And I'm not going to be able to tell you for sure
10:24 until we put it on the watch.
10:26 (engine revving)
10:29 (engine revving)
10:32 (engine revving)
10:35 (engine revving)
10:39 (engine revving)
10:41 (engine revving)
10:48 (engine revving)
10:57 (engine revving)
11:06 (engine revving)
11:08 (engine revving)
11:21 (engine revving)
11:25 (engine revving)
11:28 (engine revving)
11:40 (engine revving)
11:53 (engine revving)
11:56 - Damn it, they're tied again.
12:10 - Use your words.
12:11 - I'm frustrated because we've devised a series
12:14 of objective tests.
12:15 And every time we've tested these cars against each other,
12:18 they're completely tied.
12:20 - So what you're saying is we're going to have to use
12:22 subjective means to determine a winner.
12:24 - Right, which is why we went and drove them on the road.
12:27 I'm only concerned that we might've had a little bit
12:29 of fun in doing so.
12:31 - I don't think I had any fun.
12:33 No, no fun whatsoever.
12:34 - I never have fun with you.
12:36 (upbeat music)
12:39 (engine revving)
12:42 - Why does it sound so weird?
12:47 - It sounds terrible.
12:48 - What is that sound?
12:49 - It's a straight six that, like, they always sound good.
12:51 And somehow BMW has managed to make this one sound bad
12:54 and then play music through the speakers on top of it
12:57 to try to mask that, like spraying Glade on a fart.
13:00 It doesn't work.
13:02 My problem with this car is it's not really much
13:05 of a luxury car in interior quality and ride quality
13:09 and other ways.
13:09 And then as a sports car, it falls on its face too.
13:12 You don't want your sports car to sound like crap.
13:15 BMW is fighting a war at home
13:17 that they're not fighting here.
13:18 Right now, the European government is on a crusade
13:21 against fuel consumption.
13:22 So really BMW didn't have a choice, so they say,
13:27 in going to a smaller turbocharger.
13:29 Let's talk about this for a second, like the steering feel.
13:32 Remember, this is the M and I know that when I turn the wheel
13:35 the car goes left, but I'm feeling this big disconnect.
13:39 And the reason, not only for a BMW, but for an M product
13:42 is you want steering and it's, it's, it's--
13:46 - Listen-- - Dare I say rubbery?
13:47 - Yeah, it is.
13:48 And the thing is you want steering feel.
13:50 I want steering feel.
13:51 I don't think M wants steering feel.
13:53 I think M wants fast lap times, which they got.
13:55 The car is capable.
13:56 The car is very capable.
13:57 - It's just as fast as a Camaro.
13:58 - Just like driving an Epidora.
14:01 - And then also, this is the car with the fixed dampers.
14:04 And I'm telling you in the corners here,
14:06 it's like undulating, you know?
14:08 It's just, it's not that great tied down ride
14:11 I'm used to from previous M3s.
14:13 - When you're driving this car
14:15 at a pleasant luxury car pace, it's all fine.
14:18 It's when you start pushing it that it falls apart.
14:20 The engine starts to sound gravelly.
14:22 And it doesn't communicate with you.
14:23 It's never fun.
14:24 This car is not fun unless you're sideways.
14:27 We were talking earlier before the cameras were rolling
14:29 about things that the $46,000 Camaro has
14:32 that the $81,000--
14:33 - And also things that the $19,000 Hyundai Elantra has
14:37 that the $81,000 Beemer does not have.
14:39 - Well, we have a list.
14:41 So backup camera.
14:42 Why does an $81,000 4 Series?
14:44 - Well, also if you're spending $81,000,
14:45 do they really need another 500 bucks for you for a camera?
14:48 Which brings me to Comfort Access,
14:50 as BMW calls it, Keyless Go,
14:51 which they want another couple hundred bucks for.
14:53 So you need to take the key out of your pocket
14:55 to unlock the door, but then once you're inside the car,
14:58 there's nowhere to put it but back in your pocket.
15:01 Come on.
15:01 - It's an excellent dynamic.
15:03 - This is a luxury car for the love of, anyway.
15:05 Satellite radio.
15:07 No satellite radio.
15:08 - Cooled seats.
15:09 - It does not have cooled seats
15:10 and it does not have a heated steering wheel, exactly.
15:12 - But even things like leather seats.
15:14 I mean, I don't necessarily want leather.
15:16 I really like this cloth.
15:18 But that is an option on this car
15:19 and we're at 80,000 bucks
15:21 and this car is missing stuff that just,
15:24 it's not acceptable.
15:25 - Right, so if this car had the same level of equipment
15:27 that that Camaro has, $95,000?
15:30 - $95,000.
15:31 Yeah, we're somewhere over there.
15:33 No, and it used to be that, you know,
15:34 the interior materials and the design
15:35 and all that intangible crap
15:37 was just so worth the extra money.
15:39 And this is a nice interior and it's a nice car.
15:43 And I'm so sick of ragging on BMW,
15:46 but it's just not ahead of the game anymore.
15:47 - Again, if you're gonna have the car
15:49 have the capabilities it has,
15:51 make every part really good.
15:53 And it's just, boy, this is not a great shifter.
15:56 - Well, boy, this is just not a great M4,
15:59 I'm sorry to say.
15:59 I mean, there are parts of this car that are excellent,
16:02 but it as a whole is not a good sports car.
16:06 - It just sort of goes down the road.
16:07 And again, it's that detachment.
16:09 Wow, look at its capabilities,
16:11 but where's the involvement?
16:12 - Right, there is no involvement in this car.
16:14 It is just as enjoyable from the passenger seat
16:17 as it is in the driver's seat.
16:18 And that should absolutely not be the case in an M car.
16:21 - Right, it should be twice as much fun for the passengers.
16:23 - You should be fighting the smile.
16:25 - Right.
16:26 - Stop smiling.
16:27 And I should be miserable.
16:28 And now we're both miserable,
16:30 because that's very important.
16:31 - Sounds about normal. - Now.
16:33 (engine revving)
16:36 - Hear that? - Oh, yeah, yeah.
16:40 - Nice.
16:42 And then watch, angry.
16:47 - It's so good.
16:47 - It's such a good sound.
16:49 - Such a good sound.
16:50 - I mean, you know, people might knock it,
16:52 oh, it doesn't have overhead cams,
16:54 and horsepower per liter,
16:56 and all these other nonsense metrics
16:57 that don't really actually matter.
16:59 Just listen to that. - Listen to it.
17:00 - NA V8.
17:01 (engine revving)
17:02 - This engine has some NVH issues, let's be honest.
17:05 I mean, you know, kind of hold it at 4,000.
17:07 - The harmonics going on,
17:08 it fits the personality of the car.
17:10 - Sure. - It's a Camaro, it's brash.
17:11 - Right. - You know?
17:12 And it's a sweet sound, or violent, either way.
17:16 Either way, it doesn't feel fake.
17:18 You know, I think GM's core competency is the small block.
17:22 And let me explain, this is like an ATS chassis,
17:24 but instead of a twin-turbo V6 that nobody likes,
17:26 it's got a Corvette small block, it's awesome.
17:29 And a friend of mine at Cadillac called me, like,
17:31 you know, what, how dare you say that?
17:34 Don't say it's better than the ATS.
17:36 And I was like-- - But it is.
17:37 - I was like, that's what you guys do best,
17:39 it's a small block.
17:39 And he's going, no, that's not true.
17:41 Twin-turbo V6 is better technology.
17:43 And I said, listen to me.
17:44 The three most expensive products you sell,
17:47 Escalade, Z06, CTS-V, are all small blocks.
17:51 There's a reason why, that's what you do best.
17:53 - It's clearly GM's best engine.
17:55 This beats the BMW in every single
17:59 subjective performance measurement.
18:01 From steering feel, to shifter, to engine response,
18:05 to engine noise, to everything except initial brake bite.
18:10 This is such a clear hands-down winner.
18:12 You know, when you have three modes and all this,
18:15 you never touch 'em.
18:17 You know what I mean?
18:18 Like, you want a car just like when you get in it,
18:20 you don't have to worry about the suspension.
18:22 Like, is the suspension tuned well?
18:24 Great.
18:25 Funny you should bring that up, though,
18:26 because BMW is actually the bigger offender here.
18:28 M has been a huge offender in that category
18:30 for a number of years.
18:31 But it's worse than ever.
18:32 I mean, you can't get the computer
18:33 to stop blipping the throttle unless you go to Sport Plus,
18:37 which just then makes the throttle pedal on or off.
18:40 It's maddening.
18:41 I remember, you know, when we were doing the drag race,
18:43 you know, this car we found launched best
18:45 at like, let's say, 2,500 RPM.
18:46 You could hold it there.
18:48 That BMW, you couldn't hold it.
18:49 It was (imitates engine revving)
18:51 Nothing linear about the way that engine responds.
18:54 And okay, for a turbo, it's really good.
18:57 But when you compare that to a really good,
19:00 naturally aspirated engine,
19:02 (engine revving)
19:03 All right, let's get philosophical for a second.
19:05 Have you ever been like, ooh, I want a turbo motor
19:09 over a naturally aspirated motor?
19:11 No.
19:11 Listen, turbos, the interesting thing about turbos
19:14 is that when we were growing up back in the 1700s,
19:17 turbos were really special.
19:19 Saab 99 turbo, Saab 900 turbo, Porsche 911.
19:23 - 959.
19:24 - Oh my God.
19:24 But we've had a reversal here.
19:26 I think we, as the car enthusiast community,
19:29 have realized that turbos are cool,
19:32 but they're a device to cheat and make a lot of power.
19:35 And now they're being used as a device to save fuel.
19:37 And in that application,
19:39 A, they don't work in the real world.
19:40 These turbo cars use more gas than they would otherwise.
19:43 But B, naturally aspirated engines
19:45 are so much more responsive.
19:49 And they have personality.
19:50 Listen to this thing.
19:52 You compare that to that racket,
19:54 that fake racket in the BMW.
19:57 - So you, Mr. Kambisa, you've owned what,
19:59 20, 30 German cars?
20:01 - I've never owned an American car.
20:02 - It's not as if you're just like,
20:04 oh, I want an American to win or anything like that.
20:05 You put your money where your mouth is,
20:07 you're buying German cars.
20:09 - But now you're saying the American
20:10 is the subjectively better sports car.
20:14 - Clear.
20:15 Subjective.
20:16 I mean, hats off to Chevy.
20:17 - Hats off to Chevy.
20:18 Speaking of which, did you get your check from them?
20:21 - Oh, from Chevy?
20:21 Yeah.
20:22 But you know what?
20:23 I got the BMW in one too.
20:24 Totally bounced.
20:25 - Bounced?
20:26 - Bounced.
20:26 - Is like diesel gate ruining
20:27 the German economy or something?
20:29 - No, my AMG check is bigger than ever.
20:31 - Huh.
20:32 I gotta get on that program.
20:33 - Oh, it's the best.
20:33 - Yeah.
20:34 - Who do you think bought this suit?
20:35 - Was it Motor Trend?
20:36 - Oh, it sure was.
20:38 Don't, no laughing.
20:39 (car engine roaring)
20:42 - Well, what have we learned?
20:50 - We've learned that subjective car evaluation
20:52 is not fun at all.
20:53 - It's really no fun.
20:54 - No.
20:55 But also there is a clear winner.
20:57 This is a very, very easy decision to make.
21:00 I do have one confession to make.
21:01 - I've already forgiven you for that.
21:02 - Not that.
21:04 Angus wrote a column recently where he said
21:05 the Camaro SS is more fun to drive
21:07 than a BMW 3 Series.
21:08 And I was worried that he had just gotten out of a 340i,
21:12 that when we got the M4 here together with the Camaro SS,
21:15 the M4 would wipe the streets with the Camaro.
21:18 And in fact, the opposite happened.
21:20 - My Camaro concern was this.
21:22 It has transcended its genre.
21:24 It's no longer a pony car.
21:25 It doesn't compete with the Mustang,
21:26 doesn't compete with the Challenger.
21:27 It now can compete with the best from Europe, the M4.
21:31 What I wasn't expecting was how much more
21:34 I would like the Camaro than I like the M4.
21:36 - I think this is all happening at a time
21:38 where BMW is moving away from sports cars
21:40 and into luxury cars that happen to be capable,
21:43 but are a bit numb.
21:45 And it used to be that BMW's price premium
21:47 was justifiable because of all of those intangibles.
21:50 The steering, the handling, the powertrain calibration,
21:53 all of those little things that you notice
21:55 on a subjective test.
21:56 - I like the engine a lot better in the Camaro.
21:58 I like the steering better in the Camaro.
21:59 I like the chassis better in the Camaro.
22:01 The little things, the good vibrations, if you will,
22:04 that you get from a car,
22:05 they're more present in the Camaro than the BMW.
22:08 I mean, the Camaro's biggest problem
22:09 is that it has a Chevy badge on the back and says Camaro.
22:12 - But even if those two cars had the same price tag,
22:15 equipped the same way,
22:16 it's the Camaro that I think I would have chosen.
22:18 - Oh, absolutely.
22:19 I'm going home with that car.
22:20 - Funny.
22:21 That's the one I'm taking home.
22:21 - Actually, that's the one I'm taking home.
22:23 (laughing)
22:25 I've got the key, you stupid (beep)
22:31 (upbeat music)
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