UBS' Wale Ogunleye Provides an Entertainer's Perspective on Music & Money
UBS partnered with Billboard to help increase awareness about the financial resources available to all entertainers. In the third of four episodes, Wale Ogunleye sat down with Billboard to share his experience managing finances throughout his NFL career.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello, my name is Dana Drafo.
00:10 I'm Chief Brand Officer at Billboard.
00:12 And today I am joined by Wale Ogumleye.
00:16 He is Head of Sports and Entertainment at UBS.
00:20 As a former NFL player who played in the league
00:22 for 11 years, Wale knows firsthand what it can be like
00:25 for a young athlete or entertainer
00:28 who reaches their first big paycheck
00:29 without financial guidance.
00:32 Many artists and creators working in music
00:34 are also unprepared for their first advance
00:37 or the sale of their catalog.
00:39 UBS and Billboard partner to help increase awareness
00:42 about the financial resources available to entertainers.
00:45 So in this episode, we'll talk about the biggest challenges
00:48 facing entertainers today and how they can plan ahead
00:51 to build their legacies.
00:53 Thank you so much for being with us.
00:54 - Thanks for having me, Dana, appreciate it.
00:56 - How exactly did you go from being an NFL pro bowler
01:00 to the Head of Sports and Entertainment at UBS?
01:04 - You know, I still not quite sure.
01:08 You know, you got a New York City kid,
01:11 played in the NFL for 11 years,
01:14 then now, you know, last, you know,
01:16 four or five years now doing this in finance,
01:18 I just, I think about the journey though.
01:24 I do think about, you know, how this New York City kid,
01:26 you know, who I didn't think I was gonna play in the NFL,
01:28 I just thought I was gonna be a lawyer,
01:30 made it all the way now to running
01:33 the Sports Entertainment Division at UBS.
01:36 But I will think that, I will say that I think the,
01:41 my passion for giving back and some of my own mistakes
01:46 combined with bumping into the right people
01:52 led me to a place where I could use my talents,
01:55 my experience, and you know, now a firm like UBS
01:58 to help give back to our athletes and entertainers,
02:01 making sure that they have the right resources
02:04 to help build a lasting legacy.
02:06 This initiative that we're doing at UBS,
02:08 it's pretty special in getting our clients
02:11 to think about what legacy really means.
02:13 So I'm happy that I've gotten this position.
02:17 A lot of hard work, but again, you know,
02:19 universe of God, you know,
02:21 I don't even know how we got here.
02:22 - I think that's a really beautiful way to put it.
02:25 And to go back in time for a second,
02:29 it seems like an amazing thing to be a young athlete
02:32 and receive this huge lump sum of money.
02:34 Sounds great, what's the problem?
02:37 But the reality must have been a bit overwhelming.
02:40 Also, can you tell me a little bit about that?
02:41 - Absolutely, Daniel, listen, if you tell, you know,
02:45 tell me like at one moment I can have anything I want,
02:50 it sounds like a great thing.
02:54 But for a young individual, you know,
02:57 athlete or entertainer, that could be a problem, right?
03:00 Everyone now looks at you as the breaking
03:04 in case of emergency person.
03:06 All of their problems become your problems.
03:11 Even though now you can buy whatever you want,
03:13 there comes some big time responsibility with that.
03:16 So for me, it was tough.
03:19 You know, I had to learn the hard way
03:22 that I can invest in everyone's idea.
03:25 I had to learn to not feel guilty
03:30 about being maybe the one person in my neighborhood
03:32 that made it out.
03:34 And that, you know, weighs on people.
03:36 You know, people love to see the car accidents
03:42 and the big headlines of when people
03:44 lose everything they had.
03:46 And for me, I think it stems from a lack of education
03:51 and not knowing exactly really what finance
03:54 is really meant.
03:56 And I think if you couple that lack of education
03:59 and millions and millions of dollars,
04:01 that's a recipe for disaster.
04:03 So there's a lot of pressure on these young men and women
04:06 when they do get their contracts
04:09 from people around them in their ecosystems
04:11 to solve all their problems.
04:13 And that's a lot of pressure for people.
04:15 And that was tough for me too.
04:17 And I give credit to my parents.
04:19 They did a good job of kind of shielding me a little bit
04:22 from my family and friends.
04:26 And they're all right.
04:28 They were really patient with me too.
04:29 They didn't ask for the car and house right away,
04:32 even though everybody's dream
04:35 is to buy their mom a house, right?
04:37 And my mom and dad were really patient with me
04:39 and it worked out.
04:40 But that's a lot of pressure to have on somebody
04:43 at a young age that you now have all the money in the world
04:47 and everyone's problems become your problem.
04:49 - That does sound really intense.
04:53 And like it might be helpful
04:55 to have somebody guide you through that.
04:58 So for you, you're not the average banker.
05:01 You're not the average financial executive.
05:04 Why are you personally so passionate
05:07 about changing the way that these institutions
05:09 work with athletes and entertainers?
05:12 - Yeah, great question.
05:12 I think, ultimately when I was playing,
05:16 I struggled with the amount of money I made.
05:21 I did.
05:22 I struggled with understanding
05:23 how did I make more money than my parents
05:26 who were social workers and teachers
05:28 who gave back to the kids in the community.
05:30 And not until we had a really good season
05:35 and we were on our way to the Superbowl
05:37 that I looked into the stadium
05:38 and I realized like, wow, there's moms and daughters
05:42 and fathers and sons and black, white, Asian, Spanish,
05:47 all in one stadium, not caring about their,
05:51 the worldly issues that were going on
05:54 and the memories we were creating.
05:56 And in that moment, whether we're being booed
05:59 or being cheered, I realized like entertainers
06:02 have a special place in our hearts and in society.
06:06 And I think it's our obligation as a firm,
06:09 as a banking firm and a financial firm,
06:11 wealth management firm to give back to our clients,
06:14 give back to all of the individuals
06:17 that have given so much to society
06:20 and so much to the memories that we talk about
06:24 during Thanksgiving or Christmas time
06:26 and the music that we play in the gym
06:28 when we're hanging out.
06:29 Those things, I think for us as an industry,
06:32 I believe it's our obligation to give back.
06:33 So it's really special for me to be working at a firm
06:38 that understands my vision for this
06:43 and we're helping to build legacy one client at a time.
06:47 - That's so beautiful and so different,
06:52 I think from the perspective of so many people
06:55 who are in positions like you.
06:58 Let's go back in time one more time.
07:00 And I'm curious to hear about this phase of your life
07:03 before you had the education that you have now.
07:06 What were some of the mistakes that you made
07:09 when you first came in to money
07:12 for the first time in your life?
07:13 - Well, some of them I'm not sure I can talk about on camera
07:17 but I will talk about how I let my pride get in the way.
07:23 I think my ego caused me to do things
07:27 that I probably shouldn't have done.
07:30 I had a good foundation when it comes to my finances.
07:32 One, I didn't understand things
07:33 so I kind of just stayed away from spending big
07:36 but I'll give you this one example.
07:39 I had went down to a Bentley dealership
07:44 and at the time the house that I was living in
07:48 cost less than a Bentley.
07:52 And I don't know what it was
07:53 but the way the salesperson at the Bentley dealership
07:57 was talking to me, I was like, you know what?
08:00 I'm just gonna buy a cash right now.
08:02 And I did, I walked out of there with a Bentley
08:06 and I'm driving my Bentley into my house
08:09 that is less than my Bentley, cost less than my Bentley.
08:12 So again, I had a good path
08:16 and I thought I was doing things the right way
08:19 but I let my ego get in the play.
08:21 And I think that's what happens
08:22 to a lot of young entertainers.
08:26 They have a vision and a plan
08:28 but they see that friend that's taking that private jet.
08:33 They see the Lamborghini outside
08:35 in the parking lot of the stadium
08:37 and they're like, you know what?
08:39 I can do that too instead of sticking to the plan.
08:42 So I think for me, my ego and my pride got in the way.
08:47 - What's the half-life on the Bentley?
08:48 It had to feel good before it felt bad, right?
08:51 - Oh man, it felt great.
08:53 'Cause listen, I'm down here in Miami.
08:54 I look at it now, I look back at it now
08:57 and I laugh about it, but I'm down here in Miami.
08:59 I had a baby blue Bentley.
09:02 I mean, two door, man.
09:04 - Don't bury the lead.
09:05 You have to say it's baby blue.
09:07 - Baby blue. - Let 'em know.
09:08 - Oh man, it was pretty.
09:11 And, but again, I was pulling into a garage
09:14 that had, the house had less value than the car.
09:17 So crazy, crazy.
09:20 - Okay, so what are some of the things
09:22 that you wanna see the banking industry do
09:25 to better accommodate entertainers and athletes?
09:29 - I think ultimately it's the same way
09:31 we value relationships.
09:33 I think the financial institution,
09:35 when it comes to entertainers, it's too transactional.
09:40 It's too like, how much money do you have?
09:43 How much money are you gonna make?
09:45 How can we make money off of you?
09:47 There's not a real relationship there.
09:49 And I tell, and our advisors understand this,
09:52 if there's not milestones that you're being invited to,
09:55 whether it's a wedding or their kid's first birthday,
10:00 if you're not included in those things,
10:01 you probably have a transactional type relationship.
10:04 I think the financial institution needs to do a better job
10:07 of getting away from that.
10:09 And in a place where referrals are super important,
10:13 that's the best way to earn trust.
10:18 But more importantly, when you have relationships
10:21 that you're vested in understanding their community,
10:25 where they're from and why they do the things that they do,
10:28 it makes managing their money much easier.
10:30 - You mean the team you can trust?
10:32 - Absolutely, absolutely.
10:33 - What are some of the really big issues or challenges
10:37 that are facing individuals in the music industry now?
10:41 - Well, I think the biggest thing, one, cost of living,
10:45 even today, especially with inflation and stuff,
10:47 it's much higher than it was when I was shopping
10:52 for that Bentley.
10:54 So I think what we have to do ultimately
10:59 is some things don't change in the sense that planning,
11:03 people coming to you for ideas.
11:07 And I think the biggest change that I think individuals
11:11 in today's age have to understand is everything you do
11:15 is in front of a camera.
11:17 Social media has changed the way we view our entertainers.
11:20 We see everything they do.
11:21 We see where they shop, where they eat,
11:24 how they spend their free time.
11:26 And I think that adds to the pressure
11:28 of wanting to keep up with the Joneses.
11:31 I would tell our younger entertainers and athletes,
11:34 try your best to stay away from consuming
11:38 that type of energy as you spend your day,
11:42 'cause it's only going to add to your stress level
11:46 of trying to see how people think about you,
11:49 how they view you.
11:50 And it's an oxymoron 'cause we want our clients
11:53 to have big brands.
11:54 We want them to be appealing to their fans,
11:58 but at the same time in the financial world,
12:00 we want them to keep their blinders on and stay the course.
12:03 So I know it's like we're talking out of both sides
12:05 of our mouths, but the truth of the matter is
12:08 it's extremely hard for these younger athletes
12:10 and entertainers to live a life now,
12:14 especially with social media
12:16 and they're under the bright lights of scrutiny.
12:18 But I do think that if you do surround yourselves
12:21 with the right individuals, people who care,
12:23 like we said earlier, there is a great opportunity
12:27 for you to have a real legacy that lasts
12:29 long after you're here.
12:31 - What advice would you give someone now
12:34 who has spent their whole life, many hours,
12:37 so much effort achieving what it takes
12:41 to become a musician who's in the position
12:45 to receive a lot of money or get a payout or get an advance?
12:48 It's not like there's that much time to go and get an MBA
12:52 or to seek out these individuals who are gonna be
12:56 trusted advisors for you.
12:57 So how can somebody in that position avoid
13:01 some of the mistakes that you made early on?
13:04 - Yeah, I think there's so many avenues to get information.
13:09 Ultimately, if you can, I say educate yourself.
13:20 The World Wide Web can be a dangerous place,
13:22 but it can be a place where you can get
13:24 some valuable education.
13:27 And I think for me, what put me on the right path
13:30 was taking that extra step to understand
13:34 what my financial advisors were telling me.
13:36 And that's what the MBA did for me.
13:38 And you may not have the time to do that,
13:41 but I promise you, you do have the time
13:43 to take an hour a week just to understand
13:47 the basics of finances.
13:49 When your financial advisor is talking to you,
13:51 if there's something or a word you don't understand,
13:53 ask them to explain it.
13:54 It's pretty simple.
13:56 That's how you slowly get to understand your finances.
13:59 And then as you understand who you are in stature
14:04 and you grow as an entertainer,
14:07 you won't surround yourself with other people,
14:09 especially advisors that don't meet your stature,
14:12 that don't have reputational risks like you do.
14:16 And I think that's a big mistake
14:18 that I think all of our entertainers tend to do
14:21 is we don't surround ourselves with people
14:23 that from a reputational side, meet the stature we have.
14:28 And that's what gets us in a lot of trouble
14:29 'cause there's a lot of people who have nothing to lose
14:33 and we should not have them in our orbit,
14:36 but too many times, entertainers do.
14:38 - You spoke a little bit about the way
14:41 that being the person who makes money
14:45 when others around you maybe haven't been in that position
14:48 yet can put a lot of pressure on you.
14:51 And having a great team is so vital.
14:54 The reality also for musicians
14:58 is that having people around you is essential,
15:00 but let's talk a little bit about the entourage.
15:03 What is the appropriate number of people
15:07 for an artist to have in their entourage?
15:10 - Zero.
15:11 Let's get rid of entourages.
15:12 I mean, in the world of finance and what I've seen,
15:14 I'm like, get rid of the entourages.
15:17 But okay, let's be realistic.
15:19 The people that are really in your circle
15:21 should be small and tight, trusted advisors,
15:24 people that have your best interests at heart,
15:28 people that have skin in the game.
15:30 And here's the best point,
15:35 people that are smarter than you.
15:37 I love to be in a room where I am not the smartest person.
15:42 And a lot of times that's the case.
15:46 And I think that's why though, I've been super successful.
15:49 I surround myself with people that know way more than I do.
15:54 And what I add to the pod is my talent,
15:59 my passion, my integrity.
16:01 And I think that's a recipe for success.
16:04 - Just for our viewers at home,
16:06 are there any open positions in your entourage now?
16:09 Are you accepting applications?
16:10 (laughing)
16:12 - Entourage is closed.
16:14 How does Drake say it?
16:15 No new friends, no new friends.
16:18 - No new friends. - No new friends.
16:19 - Okay, well, we'll keep you posted if that changes.
16:22 (laughing)
16:23 So what are some of the really important steps
16:26 that entertainers should take
16:28 to start planning for their legacy?
16:30 - Great question.
16:31 And I would say, number one,
16:34 I start everything with education, right?
16:37 Find as much information you can
16:40 on some of the topics that you have.
16:42 Get questions and get those questions answered.
16:45 Next would be surrounding yourself
16:49 with subject matter experts,
16:51 whether it be a financial advisor, a CPA, a manager.
16:56 Those individuals are going to basically handle
17:00 a lot of the day-to-day things
17:01 that you have going on in your life.
17:03 And I would make sure I have trusted advisors
17:04 in each one of those roles.
17:06 And then lastly, stay involved.
17:09 Stay included in the decision-making.
17:14 Be the person that signs your checks, read invoices.
17:19 Don't be that entertainer
17:22 that pushes everything off to somebody else.
17:26 That is a recipe for disaster.
17:27 But those would be my three things for a young entertainer
17:30 as they're coming up in their stardom.
17:33 - And just for the sake of a little education now,
17:37 can you give me a primer,
17:39 the difference between CPA, financial advisor, manager?
17:43 - So I'll try to answer that in high level really quickly.
17:46 A CPA basically is your accountant,
17:48 someone who at the end of the day
17:49 makes sure you pay your state and government taxes,
17:53 keeps you out of trouble with the IRS,
17:55 which we know we gotta make sure
17:57 we stay out of trouble with the IRS.
17:59 Two, your financial advisor handles
18:01 basically all of your investments, your savings,
18:04 your budgeting, puts you on a plan
18:06 to make sure at the end of the day
18:07 when it's all said and done,
18:08 you can live the lifestyle you have
18:10 for a long period of time.
18:12 And then your manager,
18:13 that's the person who gets you your contracts,
18:18 gets you some gigs, manage your day-to-day stuff,
18:21 and actually connects all of the dots
18:24 and keeps things moving smoothly
18:27 and making sure that you're building your brand
18:31 and ultimately helping you on your way
18:36 to being this big celebrity that you are.
18:39 - We've said this word, legacy, planning for your legacy.
18:43 What does legacy mean to you personally?
18:47 - Wow, legacy means to me,
18:49 which you're just great at,
18:50 I always ask people this question.
18:52 Legacy means to me
18:54 giving back.
18:59 I think I'm in such a privileged position
19:03 that I can't squander it
19:06 keeping this information to myself.
19:08 This is the thing that keeps me moving.
19:12 I want to not have all the money in the world,
19:18 but I wanna at least give the tools to a young Wale
19:23 or wherever they are in the world
19:28 that they can achieve things
19:32 that money really just can't buy.
19:37 It's about pouring into people.
19:39 It's about changing communities.
19:41 It's about pulling people through the door
19:46 that you've opened up or have helped opened up.
19:49 And for me, that's my lasting legacy.
19:50 I hope at the end of the day, when it's all said and done,
19:53 that I've been able to make an impact on people.
19:57 I've supported people who needed it,
20:00 but more importantly, people who look like me can say,
20:02 "Hey, you know what?
20:04 This kid from Staten Island, New York
20:05 made it all the way to the top of Wall Street."
20:09 After being at the top of the NFL,
20:12 I mean, the sky's the limit for me.
20:13 So hopefully at the end of the day,
20:16 that would be what my legacy should be.
20:18 - Well, here, here,
20:19 it sounds like you're putting the pieces in place
20:22 to make sure that's what you leave.
20:25 - Listen, I'm with you right now.
20:26 So, I mean, the fact that I'm sitting here with you
20:29 and this interview says that, you know,
20:33 both of us are doing some good things.
20:34 So I'm pretty excited about that.
20:37 - Well, let's keep it going.
20:38 - Keep it moving.
20:39 - Thank you so much for your time today.
20:40 - Thanks for having me.
20:42 (upbeat music)
20:44 [BLANK_AUDIO]