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00:00 Next, Emmanuel Macron visiting Israel this Tuesday.
00:04 First stop Israel then to meet Benjamin Netanyahu,
00:06 the French president launching the idea
00:08 of an international coalition against terrorism and Hamas.
00:13 Macron later met with the Palestinian president,
00:14 Mahmoud Abbas, becoming the first world leader to do so
00:17 since the outbreak of the war.
00:18 He urged protection of all civilians in the conflict.
00:22 The conversation with Abbas taking place in Ramallah
00:25 on the West Bank.
00:28 Let's get more analysis and bring in Yossi McCleberg,
00:31 who's associate fellow in the Middle East
00:33 and North Africa program at Chatham House.
00:34 Yossi, thank you for joining us.
00:36 We always appreciate your time.
00:37 How are you reading the current situation, sir,
00:39 with Macron going to the Middle East
00:41 and making his suggestions,
00:43 clearly echoing what Joe Biden's been saying all along,
00:45 and in amongst all of this, of course,
00:47 the plight of the hostages.
00:49 What's your reading of things?
00:50 - Good evening.
00:53 I think the importance of this visit
00:56 as the visit by other world leaders,
00:58 mainly from the West,
01:00 is expressing solidarity with Israel,
01:04 the same time expressing also the horror
01:07 of what happened on the 7th of October,
01:11 but also to look into what happened in Gaza
01:14 and slowly, slowly also to reassess
01:17 how Israel responded in Gaza.
01:20 And I think it's really important
01:21 that President Macron went to Ramallah
01:25 because there must be open channel also
01:27 with the West Bank, with Fatah,
01:29 with the Palestinian Authority.
01:32 At the end of the day,
01:33 if there is a war on Hamas
01:37 and declared war on Hamas,
01:39 it's important also that there is an alternative,
01:42 that not a new vacuum is created in Gaza
01:45 because into this vacuum,
01:47 even worse forces can be sucked into.
01:51 So I think this is a very important step
01:54 by President Macron,
01:56 but I think it's just to be followed by others.
01:58 On the one hand,
02:00 yes, can be a unity when it's fighting against Hamas
02:03 because I think it excluded itself
02:06 from the political process,
02:08 but at the same time,
02:09 ensure that we also,
02:11 the West empowers forces that can then go
02:14 and negotiate a peaceful solution.
02:16 - Yossi, if you don't mind,
02:18 can I ask you about the UN Security Council
02:19 and what was said there?
02:20 It was clearly a very heated discussion
02:23 and a very intense emotional discussion
02:25 regarding the situation
02:27 with Antony Guterres making a statement
02:30 which then made the Israeli ambassador
02:32 call for his resignation.
02:34 Did Guterres go too far in saying
02:36 what has happened here hasn't happened in a vacuum?
02:39 It's been a result of many years of conflict and tension.
02:42 - Because of the situation is so volatile
02:47 and so sensitive,
02:49 I think every word is under the microscope.
02:53 You see, the Israeli things that actually,
02:56 by Guterres saying that he almost blames them
02:58 and what actually Secretary General Guterres said,
03:01 listen, if situations are not resolved,
03:05 this is a count where extremism
03:07 and radicalization fester.
03:09 So they need to accept also this.
03:11 It's not,
03:12 Israel is not to blame for the brutality of the Hamas.
03:15 Only Hamas is to blame for the brutality
03:18 that it showed on the 7th of October.
03:20 But it's also,
03:22 when the dust is settled,
03:24 and as you know,
03:25 including on this channel,
03:26 some of us actually warn time and again
03:29 that without a solution,
03:31 a peaceful solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,
03:34 at one point or another,
03:36 it would implode.
03:37 It's not because anyone supported
03:39 or think this was a good idea.
03:41 It's because that's what happens in conflict.
03:43 So Israel needs to also rethink about
03:46 how do you create a different environment
03:49 in which movement like Hamas and Islamic jihad
03:53 is not prospering.
03:54 And instead of that,
03:56 empowering other Palestinian movement
04:01 that want to live in peace with that.
04:03 I think calling for Guterres to resign
04:06 is just a silly reaction.
04:09 - Indeed, I had to ask you, Yossi,
04:10 because obviously we've spoken many times
04:12 about the issues relating to the Middle East.
04:15 And you always consistently a voice
04:17 of good analysis and reason.
04:18 So thank you for asking that question for us.
04:20 A final question to you, sir,
04:22 ground invasion.
04:23 Khalil, this is something that all world leaders
04:26 who've been to the Middle East have said,
04:28 look, civilians need to be protected.
04:31 And one wonders if that is at all possible,
04:33 if this ground invasion goes ahead.
04:34 - My fear that there's only gestures or empty words.
04:41 We know we already,
04:42 as you mentioned at the beginning of the program,
04:44 nearly 6,000 Palestinians killed,
04:47 many of them civilians.
04:49 And we don't even know the figures.
04:51 My only hope is that,
04:54 I think because 17 days passed
04:56 since the 7th of October,
04:59 there will be a rethink
05:00 what kind of ground invasion will take place.
05:04 And I hope it will more surgical
05:06 than probably what it might've been
05:08 had it been on the 8th of October
05:10 when the anger was at highest.
05:13 But let's not delude ourselves.
05:16 Any ground invasion will involve many casualties,
05:18 by the way, probably on both sides.
05:21 At certain point,
05:23 let's hope that even if it happens,
05:25 it's a short one,
05:26 surgical one,
05:27 and very few as possible are hurt by that.
05:32 But then the Security Council
05:33 and the United States
05:34 and other allies of Israel
05:36 will have also to call for Israel
05:39 to agree to a ceasefire.
05:41 Yossi, thank you very much indeed
05:43 for joining us here in France 24.
05:44 We always appreciate your time
05:45 and your analysis.
05:46 Yossi Mekkelberg,
05:47 Associate Fellow
05:48 on the Middle East and North Africa
05:49 Program at Chatham House.
05:50 Yossi, thank you very much
05:51 indeed for joining us.
05:52 Thank you.