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00:00Well, for more on that, then, Simone Rodin-Benzacken joins me here on set.
00:03She's the managing director of the American Jewish Committee in Europe.
00:06Simone, thank you very much for coming on the show today.
00:09Well, it's been 10 years, then, of course, since that devastating attack on the hyperkasher
00:14Jewish supermarket in 2015.
00:16How do you think that that attack in particular, and the more general context of anti-Semitism
00:19in France that we've seen in that report and in other coverage, has affected the Jewish
00:24community in France generally?
00:28So first of all, the Charlie Hebdo attacks and then the hyperkasher, you mentioned earlier
00:33on in your reportage that it was a surprise to the Jewish community.
00:37The reality, it wasn't, because anti-Semitism really has started in France really over the
00:44past two decades.
00:45It started in the very early years of 2000s with the beginning of the Second Intifada,
00:48with 9-11, with the Durban Conference at the time, and it really has increased.
00:53So since then, I would say, and particularly as we're marking, of course, the anniversary
00:5810 years later of the Charlie Hebdo attacks and hyperkasher, is a sense of fear, a sense
01:04of unease, and a terrible reality that is basically daily.
01:10I don't think Jews in France, or French Jews, live entirely the same reality as the rest
01:16of society.
01:17Yes, Islamist extremism has been a threat to the entire society in general, as we have
01:23seen again with the Charlie Hebdo attacks themselves and then the following terrorist
01:28attacks.
01:29But the presence of anti-Semitic attacks and the daily presence of anti-Semitic attacks
01:34have profoundly changed the Jewish community.
01:36And so they have changed behavior, they have changed a feeling of belonging, a feeling
01:43of solitude, frankly.
01:45It was for a long time, I think, a feeling that we were living or we are living a slightly
01:51different reality, again, as the rest of society.
01:55And I think questions as to whether there is a future for Jews here in France, and generally,
02:02I would say, more generally in Europe.
02:04And this is obviously even stronger since October 7th.
02:08A year after October 7th, the Hamas attacks in Israel, you co-produced a 2024 survey on
02:15anti-Semitism in France, which of course was referenced in that report we saw there.
02:18I find that there's a bit of a paradox in that a spike in anti-Semitic attacks has been
02:22reported over the past year and over the past several years, as you mentioned.
02:26Even though the vast majority of French people, a whopping 89%, according to this survey,
02:31say that absolutely nothing justifies anti-Semitic acts or statements, 79% of the people surveyed
02:37consider that anti-Semitism is widespread and therefore there's the implication that
02:41something should be done about it.
02:43How do you explain this disconnect?
02:45You're absolutely right.
02:46It is a paradox.
02:48I think what is very important to say is that France is not an anti-Semitic country.
02:52Actually, when you look at all of the surveys that have been done over the past
02:57decades, really since the 60s, it's more or less constant.
03:01So you have, which is already a lot, but you have about 20-25% of this population
03:09that has anti-Semitic stereotypes.
03:12And yes, you're also right, which is the positive aspect of our survey,
03:16is the fact that people consider it to be important that anti-Semitism needs to be fought
03:22and consider it to be really a societal problem and not just a problem for Jews alone,
03:28but it's a problem for France as such.
03:32What we do see, though, in the survey and what we know out of experience is that there
03:36are pockets of anti-Semitism within our society.
03:39And in particular, three.
03:41One is from the far right, is that the traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes that have existed,
03:47unfortunately, since even before, of course, since after the Second World War, of course.
03:54And then on the far left, that's something that is a little bit more recent,
03:58but still has history as well in the past, but that in particular,
04:02we've seen since the beginning of the years of 2000.
04:05And then the third pocket, and that obviously is the one that makes reference to
04:08the 10-year anniversary, it's anti-Semitism coming from within the Muslim community
04:13and in particular from Islamist radical circles.
04:17So that is really the problem.
04:19It's not that the society as a whole is anti-Semitic,
04:23but it is that there are pockets that exist in the French society that are also particularly violent.
04:32And I think that is also something that we've seen since the years of 2000,
04:37is that a large majority of anti-Semitic acts are not just swastikas on cemeteries or in synagogues,
04:45but many of those attacks are actually against people.
04:49They're violent.
04:50France is one of the only countries in Europe where they have so many Jews that have been killed
04:55since the end of the Second World War.
04:58So there is a very strong violence that exists in France,
05:04particularly against targeted against Jews.
05:06Out of all of the racist hate crimes in France, particularly targeting people, so violence,
05:14over 50% are against Jews.
05:16And the Jewish population in France represents less than 1% of the entire French population.
05:23So that is really, I think, the main problem.
05:27And of course, and again, thinking about the 10-year anniversary,
05:31specifically the Islamist terrorism that has started with the Jews,
05:36but obviously has affected the rest of society, as we see with Charlie Hebdo,
05:40and then later with all of the other terrorist attacks that came in 2015 and 2016.
05:46Addressing anti-Semitism, as you kind of hinted to in your response,
05:51has transformed the political landscape in France.
05:53It's changed a lot of the rhetoric that we see on the right, on the far right,
05:57and it, of course, has changed as well the rhetoric.
06:01And I think some of the political messaging from the left as well.
06:04How would you characterize the changes in French politics that we've seen?
06:09Listen, I looked at an article that I wrote about a year after Charlie Hebdo
06:14for the one-year anniversary.
06:16And at the time, I spoke about the responsibility of some of the politicians
06:21that existed here in France by, for example, using the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a way to,
06:28in a rather irresponsible way, to import the conflict here and, for example, celebrate
06:34terrorists. That was already something that existed at the time.
06:39Now, when you have here in France a party today, particularly on the far left,
06:44that speaks of Hamas, for example, as resistance fighters, that is constantly making
06:52the only issue sort of as a backbone of their entire policy, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
07:00It contributes largely to what is going on here.
07:05When you have a party, and I'm speaking very specifically about the France Insoumise
07:10and Jean-Luc Mélenchon, who constantly put a target on the backs of Jews and Zionists,
07:17who speak of politicians, of individuals, of even the CRIF, the representative body
07:25here of Jews in France as sort of being on the far right or supporting the genocide,
07:31the so-called genocide against the Palestinians.
07:33It obviously puts a target on Jews here in France.
07:39And I think that is the big change that we are seeing and that we have been seeing
07:4410 years later, which is not a positive aspect.
07:47It's the fact that today we have in our National Assembly, frankly, a party and politicians
07:56that have contributed largely to the increase of anti-Semitism and a feeling of fear amongst Jews.
08:07And I think that is a very, very dangerous aspect.
08:11It used to be only the far right.
08:13Jean-Marie Le Pen just died a couple of days ago.
08:17It now clearly is coming from the far left.
08:21And I think this is really the dangerous change or evolution that we've seen over the past decade.
08:28Some have argued that the far right has instrumentalized the question of anti-Semitism
08:33in order to discredit the far left.
08:37Do you think that that's also a possibility, that the attention that's been given to the
08:42far left, and many would argue, of course, rightly so, that that is allowing the far
08:48right to dishonestly change its image and the reality of its own political history?
08:56So, of course.
08:58So, first of all, I think what is very, very, very dangerous in any case is when
09:01anti-Semitism becomes a political ballgame.
09:04When the far right doesn't look at the anti-Semitism coming from their end,
09:11doesn't look at its own past, at its own members of parliament, at its own politicians
09:17that are still there, and use it as a political tool to target the far left.
09:23And I would say exactly the same thing about the far left, is when this far left only ever
09:29speaks of anti-Semitism coming from the far right and never does a little bit of introspection,
09:33says maybe there is something going on.
09:36Maybe if a large, large majority of Jews consider anti-Semitism to be coming from the LFI,
09:44then we have a problem.
09:46So it's often used as a political ballgame.
09:48Without a doubt, the far right is instrumentalizing it.
09:52But I would also say that the very dangerous thing now that is happening on the far left
09:58is that the far left constantly considers everyone to be a far right if they don't agree with them.
10:06So the crefas becomes the far right.
10:08The far right is obviously the far right.
10:10But the right is the far right.
10:12The socialists are the far right.
10:13Everybody is the far right.
10:15And so it serves, first of all, to place a target again on people.
10:21But it also serves to not be able to have any kind of honest conversation
10:28about anything.
10:30Rather than saying there is a part of the French people, and they happen to be Jewish,
10:36who are suffering and who consider to be targets and who are suffering every day
10:43and who have to hide their Jewish identity, to have their change their name of applications,
10:49take off the mezuzot of their doors, take off the kippot because they live in fear,
10:55take out their kids from public school and put them into private school.
11:00Rather than acknowledging the reality, rather than acknowledging the fears,
11:05it is always used as saying, well, they're just saying this because
11:10they want to find a way to criticize our politics.
11:13Well, it might be by part of the political spectrum, but certainly not by all of them.
11:20Simone Rodin, I have so many more questions that I would like to ask.
11:24We'd love to continue this conversation, but unfortunately, that's all we have time for.
11:27Thank you very much for coming on the show today.
11:29Thank you very much.