Former Jamba Juice CEO and author James D. White joins "Forbes Talks" to discuss how corporations are and should employ antiracist policies, the pushback against necessary change, and more.
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00:00 Hi, everybody, I'm Diane Brady. I'm here with James D. White, who is the former CEO of Jamba
00:07 Juice, co-wrote a terrific book with his daughter, Anti-Racist Leadership, How to Transform Corporate
00:13 Culture in a Race-Conscious World. James, good to see you. I know that this book was
00:19 written in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder. We're now seeing all these interesting
00:25 moves in the political realm against being anti-racist. I was curious to know your views
00:33 of this. What do you make of our current environment?
00:37 Diane, thanks for having me on. We're thrilled to be able to talk about our book, Anti-Racist
00:44 Leadership. Again, this book was catalyzed around the tragic murder of George Floyd and
00:55 precipitated on my part after receiving just countless calls from board members, fellow
01:04 CEOs that wanted to understand actions that they might take to make their own organizations
01:13 more inclusive, more thoughtful. So if I fast forward to where we sit today, I'm still receiving
01:19 the same set of calls, but the calls have the context in this divided world, how do
01:25 we continue to do the work that we know is important? We view the topic of anti-racist
01:32 leadership as being even more important in this divided world, but we've got to find
01:37 ways to really unite our organizations to do the right work and create safe spaces for
01:47 really all the humans that work in our companies.
01:50 One of the things that's interesting to me is what's really changed. We have a recency
01:55 bias where we tend to think that what happened in the last year or two is new. I'm curious
02:02 in terms of your own experience, let's take Target, which you mentioned in the book. I
02:09 can't imagine that five years ago, rainbow colored underwear would actually cause such
02:14 a backlash that it would visibly hurt sales. Do you think the conversation around race
02:20 has changed that much when you look back over your career and where we are today?
02:28 So what I've seen in terms of the course of the last few years, and if I just take a step
02:34 back and even think about it over the course of my career, the change that started to happen
02:40 in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder was the most significant and sustained change
02:48 that I'd seen inside of corporations across my entire work life. And I think the pushback
02:54 that we've seen over the recent last year to 15 months is because so much progress and
03:03 so much change was being made. And I view the change to be generational change that
03:09 will continue to move and march forward. But when there's great change, there's always
03:16 great pushback. And for me, it's just an indication that real progress was being made both in
03:23 the boardroom and the executive suite and really throughout corporations. And I think
03:30 the best leaders won't get distracted by the pushback and will stay really focused on the
03:37 mission.
03:38 You know, I'm remiss not to talk about anti-racist leadership as a concept versus inclusive,
03:45 which is a term that we've used for many years. What in your mind is the difference?
03:51 I think for us as we wrote the book, and if you'll allow me for a moment, what I often
03:57 do is I read the really opening paragraph in the book. And this was crafted by my daughter,
04:04 who co-wrote the book with me. This book is not apolitical. This book is explicitly anti-racist,
04:10 pro-black, pro-LGBTQIA and feminist. This book takes the stance that black lives matter,
04:17 that LGBTQIA rights are human rights, and that people of all abilities deserve respect
04:23 and access, and that people of all genders have the right to sovereignty over their bodies
04:29 and identities. This book acknowledges that capitalism is built on a foundation of systemic
04:35 racism, and that to have a truly diverse, equitable, and inclusive work environment,
04:41 we must acknowledge the historic and present injustices faced by marginalized people. And
04:46 the reason that I read that quote is I think it underpins kind of the generational difference
04:55 in the way people view the world. So this was crafted by my daughter. It was crafted
05:04 right after the tragic murder of George Floyd. She comes to me and says, "Dad, I've got a
05:09 different way to start our book." That paragraph is almost unedited from around the 1st of
05:15 June in 2020 when she comes to me. We read that paragraph a couple days later to the
05:23 group that was working with me on the book, and the comment that I received was, "James,
05:29 you're a mainstream business person. Do you care if you ever work again?"
05:33 >> Really, you think it was that harsh? I mean, I guess one of the things I think about
05:39 is when you say that capitalism is built on a foundation of systemic racism, I suppose
05:46 the question I would ask is you've certainly encountered racism. I'm sure I think there's
05:52 certainly truth to that. And the question is then one of the are we therefore anti-capitalist?
06:01 Because that's now become part of the conversation. Do you think there's people mistake the genesis
06:07 of capitalism with being anti-capitalist?
06:10 >> Yeah, I'd be the opposite of that. What I'm really all about is telling the truth,
06:16 and I think the truth actually matters.
06:18 >> Sure.
06:21 >> The back and forth with my daughter and myself, the place we came to in writing this
06:26 book is we're beyond the point in our history to soften language to make people comfortable.
06:36 And we actually have to describe things as what they are. So I'll give examples. When
06:41 I started my career at the Coca-Cola company, in my sales territory, they had to remove
06:50 a set of stores in the state of Missouri because it was a head -- my sales territory was largely
07:01 in Missouri but went into Arkansas, and the town in Arkansas that needed to be removed
07:06 was the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan. So that's a reality. That's a reality I never
07:11 talked about until 2020. There was really no audience to have that conversation. And
07:17 as I think about the sales territory that I worked in, it would have been sundown towns,
07:22 and it's towns where it would be unsafe to be black or brown after dark. I remember -- and
07:28 I'm selling Minute Maid orange juice at the time. I go in to a retail location where I'm
07:34 selling and the manager says, James, we heard you were in town. I would just suggest that
07:41 you're not here after dark. And this is actually somebody who's trying to be helpful. So I
07:45 think at the heart of why we talk about anti-racist leadership, why we titled the book in the
07:53 way we titled it, is that we need to actually describe things as they are.
07:59 That's an interesting example because let's take the shadow towns and you're going into
08:04 this territory which must have been extremely -- I can't imagine, frankly. You're going
08:10 into a place where you can feel hostility, and yet you're trying to do business with
08:17 the people in this town. You're trying to sell them Minute Maid. Was your reaction to
08:22 get out of town before sundown just because, you know what, this is the way it is? I mean,
08:28 how did you view it back then?
08:29 I was a young person at the time. I don't even think I thought about the danger. I was
08:35 excited to have the job. I was working with one of the best corporations in America. So
08:42 I was just really focused on doing my job. But I share that story just to talk about
08:49 the barriers that I would have encountered to my own career and success. And I compare
08:57 that to colleagues that would have been starting at the same time in other companies, white
09:05 colleagues that wouldn't have faced that issue. So for me to surmount the challenges that
09:11 I faced across my career, and those are just a couple examples, that's really the point
09:17 of that story.
09:18 I think that's a good point because there's a two steps forward, one step back aspect.
09:22 I think about, you know, Ted Wells is a good friend, and I wrote a book about him and some
09:27 men at Holy Cross. And in the aftermath of Martin Luther King's death, there was a certain
09:31 momentum, perhaps not as strong as George Floyd, but a certain momentum and recognition,
09:37 you know, of this need to, you know, focus on black leadership and bringing more, helping
09:44 people sort of move up into different income streams. Now we're seeing a court injunction,
09:51 for example, against the Fearless Fund, which is specifically targeted at helping black
09:56 female founders on the grounds that those grants are racial discrimination, which I
10:03 find outrageous and disheartening. I don't know, I mean, you said it's, these are just
10:11 emblematic of the backlash we face when there's too much attention. But does it not feel,
10:16 I mean, let me go back to when you were that kid, you know, starting out at Coca-Cola Company.
10:24 Let me put you in a different role. Let's say you're Anheuser-Busch, you send a can
10:29 of Bud Light to a trans woman, and then boom, your Bud Light sales, you know, go down the
10:37 tube in a matter of weeks. What do you do in that situation? Because to be anti-racist,
10:42 to be inclusive, is to say we stand by Dylann Mulvaney. And yet, you know, by doing so,
10:50 for some reason, you're sacrificing sales. What's the right thing to do?
10:54 Yeah, I can't speak for the team at Anheuser-Busch. I can really only speak for the leadership
11:01 experiences that I've had in the companies that I have a tremendous amount of respect
11:08 for. You've actually got to be just true to your values and kind of execute your values,
11:18 and you've got to live them out. Your employees and key stakeholders are going to respect
11:22 those. This is really not about stunts, political or otherwise. This is really about doing the
11:35 right thing as it relates to humans, inclusive of both your workforce and the consumers that
11:45 you serve. The book that we wrote is really about creating space for really all humans
11:51 to do the best work inside corporations. And that includes how the companies show up in
11:58 communities that they support and serve.
12:01 Do you get asked?
12:03 Well, I sit on the board of a supermarket in the state of Missouri, Snooks Supermarket,
12:12 fourth generation family-run business. And in the state of Missouri, the way they focus
12:20 around this time is unity is power and we stand against racism, period. And they haven't
12:25 backed off of that, and that's actually served them well in the communities that they serve.
12:34 Tell me a little bit about, do you think that if you were in a CEO role right now, how would
12:40 you be dealing with cancel culture? Let's take language. Saying, for example, I'm going
12:49 back to the statement you read at the beginning of capitalism and systemic racism. You see
12:57 a lot of CEOs being quieter in this environment. What's your advice to them? Is this a time
13:03 to be quiet? Just do your business, be as inclusive as you can and not be out there
13:08 making statements?
13:10 Well, I've certainly seen a retrenchment for some where they're more focused on getting
13:17 the work done than making public comments. And I think that works fine. I think it depends
13:23 on what business you're in, whether you can sit on the sidelines and not make comments
13:31 on issues that are critical to your business. So I think it depends, and context is important.
13:40 For me as a leader, when I led Jamba, there were things that were really important for
13:46 me to weigh in on. Youth unemployment was one of the areas that we weighed in on. We
13:54 were active participants in creating job opportunities for underrepresented minorities during my
14:03 tenure there. So we focused on things that were important in the context of the running
14:11 of our own business.
14:13 So to be anti-racist, I think is a very overt act, as you talk about in the book. And again,
14:22 I go back to a little bit about the political environment. There's been a lot of concern
14:26 about decisions around affirmative action, the need to level the playing field with education.
14:34 Now we've got targeting of funds that help, in this case, Black female founders. What
14:44 do you think about this environment in terms of to what extent to address systemic racism
14:51 is a conscious act, and that conscious act has to involve to some extent favoring marginalized
14:58 groups? Do you have a sense that it's more difficult now, or do you feel like there's
15:04 a way to do it despite the blowback that we're seeing?
15:09 I think we've just got to be thoughtful. I mean, specific to your point on the Fearless
15:13 Fund, I participate with a startup founder who was funded by the Fearless Fund and applaud
15:19 all the fantastic work that they do. And there's always been versions of this pushback throughout
15:29 our history. And I think folks that are of good conscience and are trying to run great
15:40 businesses that are for all and inclusive kind of foundationally, we have to keep at
15:48 the good work. And some of the pushback is just really a distraction to people trying
15:56 to run good businesses. We've got the most diverse generations in our workforce that
16:03 we've ever seen. We've got four generations in the workforce. And I'd argue that more
16:10 of the next generations coming to the workforce have viewpoints that are more similar to my
16:16 daughter than not.
16:17 Yeah. And I think you're right.
16:19 I think companies are going to disadvantage themselves. And this is a tough time to be
16:27 CEO. There's never been a more challenging time to be CEO. But with that really incredible
16:37 responsibility, leadership courage is required.
16:44 Any thoughts when you look at the political environment since it is so divided and obviously
16:50 many people operate blue states, red states, big cities, small towns. How do you navigate
16:59 that right now, especially when there's a concern about an overt legal challenge, not
17:04 just consumers grumbling?
17:08 I think the best leaders really find the things inside their own companies that unite them.
17:16 And they use that as the true north that kind of guides them what they actually value in
17:22 the business that they're running and the stakeholders that they serve. And you know,
17:28 for me that was always the way I operated. And you know, kind of future focused and try
17:35 to let the distractions and the noise sit somewhere on the outside of how we operated
17:43 the companies, at least that I was a part of. And my values never wavered, never changed,
17:50 and was always really very focused on always building more inclusive environments, more
17:58 inclusive companies, because I felt it in my heart of heart that that would advantage
18:04 the businesses that I worked for. And I think most of the places that I had stops on this
18:10 journey, I think, you know, my track record speaks for itself.
18:14 Yeah, no, I think it does. And do you think that race, maybe it always has been weaponized?
18:21 I mean, I'm thinking of, you know, you're not a pundit on Trump, but certainly during
18:26 his current, you know, civil fraud trials, he's been accusing the attorney general of
18:32 New York of being racist. Maybe that's just par for the course when you're angry at being
18:40 charged. But when you think about how race is talked about in the political context now,
18:46 how do you view it?
18:48 Yeah, I think for me, I stay out of politics, unless it impacts the businesses.
18:59 But it is impacting businesses now, isn't it?
19:02 Yeah, in states like Florida. I mean, so set the Trump thing aside, I don't really have
19:08 a viewpoint on that. But some of the policies in a state like Florida, that is very important
19:16 for most businesses, is just a little bit problematic.
19:22 So what would you do?
19:25 If you were running a company, you're the CEO.
19:26 Do you have advice for people who are not even just running companies, they're running
19:31 divisions, they're trying to operate businesses there? What would you be doing?
19:36 Yeah, I think you've got to be thoughtful, but you've always got to live to the values
19:40 of your particular company. And I think the current leader in place at Disney absolutely
19:50 did that. And I think, you know, if we look back on what happened in that state, four
19:57 or five years from now, we'll actually see the benefit of that approach. He was unwavering
20:06 on what the values are of the company.
20:08 You know, I often think, James, when you go back to the start of your career, and you
20:12 think, you know, decades hence, are we further ahead than you thought we would be? Or not
20:19 as far as you thought we would be given kind of what the world looked like when you were
20:25 starting out your career?
20:27 I tend to be an optimist. And in some ways, if we would have had this discussion, even
20:33 18 months ago, I would say we were making just really monumental progress. If I look
20:40 at the diversity in the boardroom, and that's another place that I spend a lot of time,
20:47 you know, trying to create more inclusion in the boardroom. The pushback that I've seen
20:54 over the last 15, 18 months has been violent. But it represents the fact that I made this
21:01 point earlier that significant change is being made. There'll be another generation of leaders
21:09 that I think will be more thoughtful. So I continue to be hopeful.
21:13 So it's the light, like the last gasp of the old guard is more how you see it versus a
21:19 new wave of conservatism that's threatening advances we've made?
21:24 There's a pushback against this generational change that is going to happen. It's happening.
21:33 And the best leaders get that. The fact that we've got more women in leadership gives me
21:41 great hope that we're going to see significant change.
21:48 Is there a way? One other question I had was, especially because you're somebody who went
21:54 into these, you know, hostile environments and did very well. How do you bring the fearful
22:00 along, the people who are so fearful that they are pushing this backlash, that they
22:05 see, you know, new faces, women, et cetera, coming into the room and feel threatened?
22:13 What have you done as a CEO or, you know, as a pundit? How do you bring that group along?
22:21 Because you can't ignore them at the same time, to your point, you can't pander.
22:28 Yeah, my approach has always been, Diane, to be an inclusive leader. And that means
22:34 for all. I mean, we wrote this book to build great cultures intentionally for all companies.
22:44 And that includes all the humans, including white males. And one of the things that my
22:51 daughter often says, if you can build processes and policies and systems that work for the
23:00 most disadvantaged among us, it's going to work well.
23:04 For the most advantaged? Yeah.
23:06 Yeah. It's going to work well for all the humans. So that's the way I've tried to operate
23:11 as a leader.
23:13 What else is on your radar that you would put on ours, you know, just at this moment
23:18 in time when you're looking at the landscape, if you were starting out your career, you
23:24 know, in this environment today, any advice for that next generation that's also nervous
23:30 about offending anyone or causing a backlash?
23:35 Yeah, I think the advice that I would have for the next generation of leaders that will
23:40 run corporations is culture really matters. You either have culture by design or default.
23:51 And if you can build a culture that is inclusive, that works for all the humans, you're going
23:59 to have a clear advantage, you know, building the next great company.
24:06 So my advice is to, you know, always, you know, lead with empathy and try to think about
24:13 all the humans. And you'll have a great opportunity to lead us into this next generation. And
24:21 I'm hopeful.
24:22 Any advice in terms of how loud to be about this? Because when I think back to the aftermath
24:28 of George Floyd, there was a lot of public statements, a lot of public support. I don't
24:34 hear that so much anymore. Should we?
24:37 I think for me, I'm more a person of action. And I would encourage leaders just to continue
24:42 to do the work, be about the action of creating more inclusive workplaces to make sure they
24:54 create environments where all the stakeholders can be best served. So it's really all about
25:02 the action that people take.
25:04 Great. James, thank you for joining us to talk about this. And I appreciate it.
25:10 Thank you.
25:11 Thank you.
25:11 Thank you.