"I may have messed something up." | Shaq vs. Kobe, Part 3
The "Shaq-Kobe beef" has become kind of a meme, just a flat cultural reference point. How to Make a Basket: Shaq vs. Kobe endeavors to go deeper than that, to figure out why and how these two legendary partners didn't get along, and how they achieved such greatness in spite of that.
This third and final part chronicles the breakup and the aftermath. In 2004, despite an ongoing scandal and a recent return to the Finals, Kobe wanted the Lakers to himself, and made it so. How did that final season and breakup unfold, and how did Shaq and Kobe find their way back to friendship in the decades that followed?
This third and final part chronicles the breakup and the aftermath. In 2004, despite an ongoing scandal and a recent return to the Finals, Kobe wanted the Lakers to himself, and made it so. How did that final season and breakup unfold, and how did Shaq and Kobe find their way back to friendship in the decades that followed?
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00:00 You might not know this man's name,
00:03 but you probably recognize him.
00:05 You've seen him here, and here, and here.
00:10 We could do this for a while.
00:12 This is Jim Gray, a sports reporter
00:14 in every sense of the word.
00:17 Gray has had the determination to pursue tough
00:20 and unwilling subjects, the good fortune
00:23 to witness historic events, and the access
00:27 to interview athletes within their locker rooms,
00:30 press rooms, and fields of play.
00:32 Access, if played right, begets another form
00:36 of sports reporting.
00:38 Alongside all the stories Gray got by digging and prying
00:43 is a long list of stories for which the subject pursued him.
00:48 Mike Tyson wrote to Gray from prison.
00:51 LeBron James chose Gray to host his Decision TV special.
00:56 Tom Brady started a podcast with Gray.
00:58 This is trust.
01:01 Throughout a multi-decade, multi-Hall of Fame career,
01:05 Gray has been trusted as the confidant
01:07 and the medium for Titanic sports figures
01:10 who want the world to know something.
01:12 Gray's autobiography, Talking to Goats,
01:17 boasts his relationship with a stacked roster
01:20 of greatest of all time athletes who trust him.
01:24 One of these relationships was particularly special.
01:27 Gray worked for the San Diego Clippers in the early '80s
01:31 when Joe "Jellybean" Bryant was on the team.
01:34 He met Joe's son when the kid was still in diapers.
01:38 So Gray knew to keep an eye on Kobe Bryant
01:41 during his rise to stardom.
01:43 Once Bryant got there, his preexisting connection
01:46 with Gray led to access and trust.
01:50 One of Kobe's first big national TV interviews
01:53 as a pro, Jim Gray.
01:55 That 2001 interview to discuss Kobe's midseason conflict
01:59 with Shaq, Jim Gray.
02:02 Kobe's interview immediately after the Lakers
02:04 won it all again that year, Gray.
02:07 And after the Lakers were eliminated in the spring of 2003,
02:12 who got the exclusive story that Kobe intended
02:14 to become a free agent after one more season?
02:18 Yes, Jim Gray.
02:20 So it's no surprise that this reporter played a part
02:24 in the other major stories of Bryant's '03 offseason.
02:28 Let's be clear that these stories overlap,
02:32 but they are not proportionate.
02:35 One of the stories is important.
02:37 In the summer of 2003, while visiting Colorado
02:41 for a knee operation, Kobe Bryant was arrested
02:44 and charged with the sexual assault
02:46 of a 19-year-old hotel employee.
02:49 On July 18th, the day Bryant was formally charged,
02:52 CNN called Jim Gray.
02:55 Live on air, Gray vouched for Bryant's character.
02:58 Then he reported from the news conference
03:01 in which Bryant, sitting beside his wife Vanessa
03:04 and his attorneys, denied the charges
03:07 but admitted to adultery.
03:08 The criminal case was dismissed over a year later
03:12 and a civil lawsuit settled thereafter.
03:16 This is the important Kobe Bryant story from this era.
03:20 It's real life.
03:22 Jeff Pearlman's book "Three Ring Circus"
03:24 reviews the whole story.
03:26 We are here to talk about something relatively unimportant,
03:31 sports, work beef between Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal.
03:36 This story was influenced by the big real life one.
03:40 And again, Jim Gray played a part in its telling.
03:44 In August of 2003, Bryant told Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak
03:48 that he hadn't received any support from his co-star
03:51 after the allegations.
03:53 Kupchak replied and Shaq later confirmed
03:56 that O'Neal's bodyguard, Jerome,
03:58 left Kobe messages on his behalf.
04:00 Kobe said messages weren't enough
04:04 and according to coach Phil Jackson,
04:06 also said that the moment Shaq started talking to the press,
04:09 he would fire back.
04:11 Shaq meanwhile was hearing of something
04:14 the rest of the world would learn much later.
04:16 During Kobe's initial interrogation with detectives,
04:20 he made an offhand comment
04:22 that he should have done what Shaq does.
04:25 Shaq, he said, pays women up to a million dollars
04:28 not to say anything.
04:29 Shaq heard all this around the same time
04:33 he was hoping to get a big contract extension
04:35 from the Lakers.
04:36 An extension that seemed increasingly unlikely
04:39 as September turned to October.
04:41 Kobe's impending free agency had something to do with that.
04:44 So there is the backdrop for the last chapter of our story,
04:50 the month-long climax of the Shaq-Kobe beef.
04:53 October, 2003.
05:05 On Thursday, October 2nd,
05:09 Lakers vets flew to Honolulu
05:11 to join their younger teammates for training camp.
05:14 Among them were two very important newcomers.
05:17 Fresh off LA's first playoff defeat of the century,
05:21 Shaq had recruited a couple of fading legends
05:24 hoping to grab a ring before they retired,
05:26 Gary Payton and Karl Malone,
05:28 huge new cogs in a very different Lakers roster
05:32 that would need time to gel.
05:33 Kobe Bryant didn't join his teammates
05:37 for that first day of camp on Friday in Honolulu.
05:40 Everyone knew about his court case and about his knee rehab,
05:44 but it wasn't that.
05:45 Kobe just said he was under the weather.
05:47 Reporters asked Shaq how it felt to open camp
05:51 without the full team present.
05:53 "The full team is here," said Shaq.
05:56 "Wait, what about Kobe?"
05:58 Here's what Shaq had to say about his teammates' absence.
06:01 "Meow, meow, meow."
06:03 Are you disappointed that Kobe
06:05 wasn't bonding with his teammates?
06:06 Are you angry at Kobe?
06:09 Shaq's protocol for questions about his teammate was cat.
06:14 Can't answer that.
06:16 On Saturday, Kobe finally showed up in Honolulu
06:19 to join his teammates and face the media.
06:22 Sunday, Phil Jackson canceled Lakers practice
06:25 for some team bonding.
06:27 While the Lakers ran around playing paintball
06:29 at an Air Force station,
06:31 Shaq mostly sniped from a stationary position.
06:34 He was nursing a bruised heel,
06:36 but Kobe said Shaq was in the back
06:37 eating a slushie or something.
06:40 This is all in good fun,
06:41 but Shaq's foot issues and his related desire
06:44 for a contract extension were no joke to him.
06:48 He made that clear during exhibition play in Honolulu,
06:51 barking directly at Lakers owner Jerry Buss.
06:54 Two days later, the Lakers flew from Hawaii back to LA.
06:59 Aboard the plane, Shaq busted out
07:02 a portable turntable and speakers
07:05 with which he produced and then played
07:07 a parody of the 50 Cent song "P.I.M.P."
07:11 with lyrics about Kobe's case.
07:14 Kobe didn't witness that.
07:16 He was headed to Colorado for court proceedings.
07:18 Kobe rejoined his teammates for media day on Friday.
07:23 He said the back and forth for court was no big deal.
07:26 Shaq said he wasn't paying attention to the case.
07:29 The only TV he watched was SpongeBob.
07:33 He wasn't gonna comment or speculate.
07:34 He just wanted to be a source of relaxation for Bryant,
07:37 to help him laugh, to be his pillow, his comforter.
07:40 When the Lakers headed to San Diego
07:43 for an exhibition against the Phoenix Suns,
07:45 Kobe was absent again.
07:47 His knee was bothering him
07:49 and he had to jet off to Colorado anyway.
07:51 Shaq didn't play in that game either because of his heel,
07:55 but he spoke and not like a cat.
07:59 Asked why he kept resting,
08:00 Shaq said he wanted to be right for Derek Fisher,
08:04 Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.
08:05 Reporters noted he was forgetting someone.
08:09 Nope, he repeated the same list verbatim.
08:12 Derek, Karl, Gary.
08:14 No mention of Kobe.
08:15 The following week,
08:17 Kobe and Shaq finally played preseason together.
08:20 Kobe made his debut in Anaheim,
08:22 then played again in the Lakers' exhibition finale
08:24 against the Kings in Las Vegas.
08:27 The crowds in those two neutral locations
08:30 were loud in their support for Kobe,
08:32 the player and the person.
08:34 But the player was clearly still shaking off
08:37 the post-surgery rust.
08:38 He shot just seven for 24
08:40 over those last two exhibition games.
08:42 After watching that performance,
08:45 Shaq shared a familiar sentiment in a familiar venue.
08:50 Instead of speaking to Kobe,
08:52 he spoke about Kobe to the media assembled in Vegas.
08:56 If Kobe's gonna be on the court,
08:58 he needs to keep other people involved,
09:00 be more of a passer.
09:01 That was the last day of preseason,
09:05 Friday, October 24th.
09:06 Kobe had said he would fire back the moment Shaq spoke out.
09:12 Sunday, reporters visited Lakers' practice
09:14 two days before their season opener.
09:17 Here's what they found.
09:18 Beef.
09:20 Kobe kept his word.
09:21 Responding to that relatively tame suggestion
09:25 that he pass more,
09:26 Kobe said, "I'm not changing my game.
09:28 "I take good shots.
09:29 "I know how to play my position.
09:31 "You worry about yours."
09:32 Teammates overheard Kobe saying
09:35 he would opt out the next summer and leave,
09:37 all because of Shaq.
09:39 When Shaq got wind of this escalation,
09:41 he stopped being tame.
09:43 We're not talking about positions.
09:45 We're talking about team basketball.
09:47 If it's gonna be my team, then that's my opinion.
09:49 Don't like it, then leave.
09:51 I don't care what Kobe does.
09:52 He doesn't care what we do.
09:53 That's the type of person he is.
09:55 Shaq chastised Kobe for skipping team functions
09:59 and for not traveling with the Lakers.
10:01 He said he was taking control of the Lakers,
10:04 but noted the media might rather give that control to Kobe,
10:07 just like they give him everything.
10:08 That, right before the season starts, is a lot.
10:14 But Shaq also said, as he had in the past,
10:18 that Beef wouldn't affect the actual basketball
10:21 the Lakers had to start playing in 48 hours.
10:24 Speaking of actual basketball,
10:27 Kobe mentioned a specific stretch of the prior season,
10:31 one that's worth recalling to understand what comes next.
10:35 One big reason '02-'03 was so disappointing
10:42 was Shaq's health.
10:43 He delayed long-needed foot surgery
10:47 until right before the season began.
10:50 O'Neal missed a lot of games,
10:52 a lot of losses while rehabbing,
10:54 and then struggled to play his way into shape.
10:56 Shaq did not apologize for the inconvenience.
11:01 He had been injured on company time,
11:03 so he'd recover on company time.
11:06 He'd rather miss part of the season
11:07 than rehab during his vacation.
11:09 During a stretch of February '03,
11:13 when Shaq was hobbling and sometimes absent,
11:16 Phil gave Kobe an explicit green light
11:19 to take over the offense.
11:21 So Kobe floored it.
11:24 46, 42, 51, 44, 40, 52, 40, 40, 41.
11:30 Bryant scored 40 or more points in nine straight games,
11:39 tying the best such streak of Michael Jordan's career.
11:43 Only Michael and Wilt Chamberlain
11:45 had recorded such a feat.
11:47 The moment Shaq and Phil allowed space for him to do so,
11:52 the 24-year-old Kobe proved he could make baskets on par
11:56 with the greatest scorers to ever walk the earth.
11:59 And then he stopped, ostensibly on purpose.
12:04 Here, according to Kobe many years later, is what followed.
12:08 - Shaq comes back from injury and Phil goes,
12:10 you know, "I still continue to do it," right?
12:12 And then Phil calls me to his office and goes,
12:13 "Hey, you know, we're starting to lose the big fella."
12:17 "What do you mean?"
12:17 "Well, he's not getting the attention.
12:19 "You know, this 40-point streak
12:22 "is starting to kind of take away his fire
12:25 "to prove something, right?
12:26 "So I need you to start dialing it back."
12:29 I'm like, "What?"
12:30 He says, "We're gonna lose him and we need him in June."
12:34 "Okay, all right.
12:37 "You have a game against the Clippers."
12:39 I think I had like 38 or something like that.
12:40 And I had a chance to score 40 again.
12:42 It was a blowout game.
12:43 I dumped the ball in the Shaq
12:45 instead of shooting a wide open shot.
12:47 The 40-point streak ended that night.
12:48 - Wow.
12:50 Now, Kobe's recollection fudges some details.
12:54 He only had 32 points that night against the Clippers
12:56 and he kept shooting well into the fourth quarter.
12:59 But it is absolutely true
13:02 that when Kobe was riding that streak,
13:04 Shaq sounded annoyed.
13:06 I guess it's cool.
13:08 And then, as usual, he whined.
13:10 He wanted more shots.
13:12 He name-dropped an old inferior Jordan teammate.
13:15 I'm not Bill Cartwright.
13:17 I'm not a token big man.
13:18 Bumfoot or not, I want the ball.
13:20 Vintage Shaq stuff.
13:22 It is also true that Phil responded
13:25 by sorta rescinding the green light.
13:27 And it is true that Kobe obeyed.
13:31 In March and April '03,
13:33 he passed much more while scoring merely a lot of points
13:37 rather than the godlike 40 a game
13:39 he had averaged in February.
13:42 So, returning to October,
13:44 this was what Kobe referred to in his response
13:47 to Shaq's accusations of selfishness.
13:51 Kobe was just following orders.
13:52 The day all these quotes hit the papers, October 27th,
13:58 Phil called a meeting to clear the air.
14:00 Each of Shaq and Kobe said his piece.
14:03 Phil demanded they keep everything in-house.
14:06 Karl Malone begged them to just knock it off.
14:09 The meeting adjourned.
14:11 Maybe the air was indeed clear.
14:14 That night, Kobe called Jim Gray.
14:16 Gray was busy interviewing the governor of California
14:21 about deadly wildfires, but Kobe wanted an interview.
14:25 Gray published their conversation on ESPN that night.
14:28 The air was not clear.
14:31 Nearly every one of Kobe's answers fired a shot at Shaq.
14:36 Fat, out of shape, over-dramatizing his foot injuries,
14:40 not a leader, childlike, selfish, jealous,
14:45 not my quote unquote big brother.
14:48 His unprofessionalism hurt us last year,
14:51 and I don't want it to hurt us this year.
14:53 That is an avalanche,
14:57 and it's not even the full transcript.
15:00 Kobe gave another quote about Shaq having less pride
15:03 than the guy who makes donuts at 7-Eleven,
15:06 but Gray cut it because he was worried
15:08 it might wreck his relationship with Shaq.
15:10 Suffice to say, the damage was done
15:13 with or without that line.
15:15 Shaq saw the interview that night.
15:19 He told teammates he was going to kill Kobe.
15:22 Immediately, Brian Shaw's phone started to ring.
15:26 Shaq and Kobe's old teammate had just retired,
15:29 but multiple Lakers made the same plea.
15:32 Get to LA immediately.
15:34 The next morning, Shaq says,
15:36 he arrived at the practice facility
15:38 to find Shaw waiting for him,
15:40 along with Jerome and a few teammates.
15:43 Kobe rolled in, sounding unimpressed by Shaq's threats,
15:46 but Shaw insisted Shaq was not messing around.
15:49 Everyone assembled in a theater room,
15:51 and they got to screaming.
15:53 Both Lakers PR guy John Black and O'Neal himself
15:58 say Shaw at one point had to step in
16:00 and prevent Shaq from going after Kobe.
16:03 With Shaw as mediator,
16:06 both guys restated their gripes.
16:09 Current Lakers chimed in to explain
16:11 how much this conflict hurt them.
16:13 Shaq told Kobe if he ever said anything like that again,
16:17 he'd kill him.
16:19 Kobe responded, "Whatever."
16:21 The relationship looked worse than ever.
16:24 Kobe received a team fine for the ESPN interview,
16:29 then he told reporters he and Shaq were cool,
16:32 past it, ready to move on.
16:34 It's over.
16:35 Shaq stonewalled those reporters for a couple days,
16:38 saying they weren't on his level intelligence-wise.
16:41 But then, after the first game of the season, Shaq spoke.
16:46 At Phil's urging, O'Neal agreed to a truce.
16:49 "We have to move on.
16:51 "I'm boisterous, he's boisterous.
16:53 "Nothing personal, we're used to it,
16:55 "we need each other, yin and yang, opposites attract."
16:58 That was October 31st.
17:02 The month of beef had concluded.
17:04 Back to basketball.
17:05 On paper, the Lakers had a good '03-'04 season.
17:10 They started really hot,
17:12 persevered through some injuries,
17:13 and made it back to the NBA Finals.
17:15 Between the lines, well, Phil wrote a whole book
17:20 documenting that season's palace intrigue
17:22 from his perspective.
17:24 Phil and Kobe had to work through
17:27 major problems with each other.
17:30 Phil and Shaq, both awaiting contract extensions,
17:34 stood united in their suspicion
17:35 that the Lakers would prioritize Kobe's '04 free agency,
17:39 and that Kobe would ultimately decide their fates.
17:43 It was a reasonable suspicion,
17:45 given the way Jerry Buss spoke about Kobe.
17:48 And please don't forget,
17:49 Kobe was awaiting trial for sexual assault this whole time.
17:54 For a winning basketball season,
17:57 2003-2004 was extraordinarily strange away from the court.
18:03 But between Shaq and Kobe,
18:05 the season was pretty uneventful after October.
18:08 Shaq says they kept a lid on stuff,
18:11 which is mostly true.
18:14 You know, give or take the odd ESPN article
18:17 in which Shaq insisted he really did call Kobe
18:20 over the summer,
18:20 and if he had a problem with someone,
18:22 he just punched him in the face
18:23 instead of talking to the press,
18:24 while Kobe replied, "No, he didn't call me,
18:26 "and if he wants to fight, we can fight."
18:28 Stuff like that.
18:29 For real, though,
18:31 the beef settled into a cold war.
18:34 Shaq and Kobe made their feelings known
18:36 in quiet, petty ways,
18:38 like refusing to get taped by the same trainer.
18:41 Phil Jackson, feeling closer than ever
18:45 to the Shaq side of the divide,
18:47 met with O'Neal and Rick Fox
18:49 to ask whether they thought Kobe should leave the team
18:51 to deal with his case.
18:53 They both said no,
18:54 but when Phil asked if they thought these Lakers
18:57 would win a championship with Kobe,
18:59 their answer was the same.
19:01 And indeed, the Lakers did not.
19:04 For the first time ever,
19:07 Shaq and Kobe lost an NBA Finals together,
19:10 and that 0-4 defeat to the Detroit Pistons
19:13 included additional novelty.
19:15 Kobe took more shots than Shaq did in an NBA Finals.
19:20 It didn't go so hot.
19:21 Bryant shot 10 of 27 in a surprise game one loss at home.
19:26 In a back-breaking game four,
19:28 Kobe hit just eight of 25.
19:31 Shaq, who kept giving the Lakers more points
19:33 on fewer attempts than his teammate,
19:35 issued quotes that sounded like his old mid-season self.
19:40 "Write what you see.
19:41 "I'm disappointed."
19:43 But Kobe kept shooting till the bitter end,
19:46 seven of 21 in the elimination defeat,
19:48 while Shaq hit seven of 13.
19:50 Years later, '04 Laker Kareem Rush
19:54 said he thought Kobe was gunning for the Finals MVP trophy
19:58 that had always been Shaq's.
19:59 That obviously didn't come to pass,
20:04 but Kobe had grander desires anyway.
20:06 The Lakers dynasty was unmistakably over.
20:11 Kobe had the negotiating power of free agency.
20:15 The franchise seemed to favor him
20:17 despite an ongoing criminal case.
20:20 His demand was simple.
20:22 Kobe wanted to make the baskets.
20:25 And he was clear in 2004 about what that meant.
20:29 He did not want to be a sidekick any longer.
20:32 It would be him or Shaq, not both.
20:35 At the time, Kobe said these things in private,
20:39 but years later, Kobe opened up about how he felt in '04.
20:43 He put it best in Rick Buecher's oral history
20:45 of that Lakers season.
20:47 "I wasn't going to play with Shaq anymore.
20:50 "I'm going to show you fucks what I can do on my own,
20:53 "in LA or somewhere else."
20:55 Kobe used his free agency to force the Lakers' hand.
21:00 And if he was bluffing, well, this is a hell of a bluff.
21:05 Whatever it was, it worked.
21:09 Shaq had watched the Lakers punt his contract extension,
21:12 then he watched them do the same to Phil Jackson.
21:15 When news broke that Phil would quote unquote "retire,"
21:20 Shaq read the writing on the wall and asked for a trade.
21:22 On July 14th, 2004, he got it.
21:26 The very next day, Kobe signed a seven-year,
21:32 $136 million deal to stay with the Lakers.
21:37 At long last, it was his team.
21:40 So this is where Shaq's concept of work beef peels away.
21:48 The work was over, and with it, the associated conflict.
21:52 It's one that Kobe summarized very tidily in 2004.
21:56 - You know, he used to get mad at me
21:57 for not playing team basketball.
21:59 He used to get mad at me because he wasn't in tip-top shape.
22:02 - Both men referred to their feud
22:06 as the inevitable clash of two alpha dogs.
22:10 Each wielded his own prideful ego.
22:13 Shaq took pride in natural brilliance,
22:17 in his ability to dominate opponents without practice.
22:21 He wanted teammates to buy in and to get along with him.
22:24 Kobe took pride in crafting brilliance,
22:28 in obsessive practice to refine his individual game.
22:32 He didn't care as much about buy-in or about being liked.
22:36 For a time, Shaq's advantages in age, experience,
22:41 and the system made him the prevailing force.
22:44 Shaq spoke many words across many forms of media
22:48 to check Kobe's individualism and get what he wanted,
22:52 the ball and three championships.
22:55 But when Shaq's fitness slipped,
22:58 the undeniable fruits of Kobe's labor
23:00 made him the prevailing force.
23:02 He flexed his youth and his solo skill,
23:06 and then he used the media his own way
23:08 to target Shaq's foibles.
23:10 It's not that Kobe didn't want those three rings.
23:13 He just needed to prove that he could earn some
23:16 as an unquestioned first option.
23:18 In the long run, Kobe got what he wanted,
23:22 baskets, two more championships as the leading Laker,
23:27 two finals MVP trophies, one more ring without Shaq
23:32 than Shaq managed without him.
23:34 With that and with the formal dismissal
23:37 of his criminal case, Kobe cultivated a reputation,
23:41 a legacy, and a brand, literally,
23:44 that was about Kobe and Kobe alone,
23:47 his excellence, his obsession, his precision,
23:52 even his scandal.
23:53 The whole Black Mamba thing began as a way for Nike
23:58 to market Kobe after his sexual assault allegation,
24:02 and it just evolved as he became a finals MVP,
24:06 veteran legend, and retired public figure.
24:09 It's a hell of a thing.
24:11 And it overlaps with the denouement of our story.
24:16 The Shaq-Kobe beef didn't just end sharply
24:19 with their 2004 work breakup.
24:21 Later that off-season, the public learned
24:25 what Shaq already knew,
24:27 that Kobe's '03 police interrogation
24:30 included a statement accusing Shaq of paying off women.
24:34 This response, issued in September
24:36 through ESPN's Stephen A. Smith,
24:39 was about as harsh and as direct as Shaq would ever get.
24:43 Denial and distance, but also an unmistakable reference
24:48 to the expensive ring Kobe had bought his wife, Vanessa,
24:51 after the allegations came to light.
24:53 Smith and John Saunders put Kobe on the spot,
24:57 pressing on a guy who already felt plenty of pressure.
25:01 - When's the last time you talked to Shaq
25:02 and did you ever apologize for those statements?
25:06 - This exposed Kobe's new position in the beef.
25:09 He was done stoking it.
25:12 After attempting some excuses.
25:14 - I can try to track him down,
25:16 but I don't have his number or anything like that.
25:18 - He promised to apologize, with Stephen A.'s help.
25:21 - Well, let me ask you this question.
25:22 One of the things that Shaq would say,
25:24 and I know him pretty well,
25:26 is that Shaq would say, "He's not hard to find."
25:28 - You probably got his number,
25:29 I get it from you and I call him today.
25:32 - There's some irony here.
25:33 It is funny that Smith would quote Shaq
25:36 as being not hard to reach,
25:38 because when Colleen Dominguez asked a similar question,
25:41 O'Neal jokingly said the opposite.
25:44 - If Kobe Bryant called you on your cell phone right now,
25:46 what would you say to him?
25:47 - I don't have a cell phone.
25:49 'Cause people that I'm connected with,
25:50 I'm connected with them.
25:51 All you gotta do is think, and I'll call you.
25:54 I don't have a cell phone.
25:56 And that's the problem with the diesel.
26:00 I'm technologically more advanced than you are.
26:04 - But isn't that Shaq?
26:06 With so much less pressure, so much less to prove,
26:09 Shaq in 2004 sounded as glib and playful as ever
26:13 talking about the beef.
26:15 On SportsCenter, he made subtle digs
26:18 at Kobe's style of play.
26:20 - I think if he did the little things,
26:22 he'd be the greatest player to ever play the game.
26:24 But he's a great player.
26:26 - What are the little things?
26:27 - Make everybody else better.
26:30 - Speaking to Stephen A,
26:31 he made insinuations about Kobe's character.
26:34 - You don't have to like me.
26:35 But most of the people, if you ask them about me,
26:37 they really like me.
26:39 So if you don't like me,
26:41 there must be something wrong with you.
26:42 - And he told jokes,
26:43 like the one about new co-star Dwayne Wade
26:46 surprising him by passing him the ball.
26:48 After he and Wade won the 2006 championship,
26:53 Shaq enjoyed a few years ahead of Kobe in the title ledger.
26:56 It's probably not a coincidence
26:59 that Shaq kept the beef in the public consciousness,
27:02 always in a silly way.
27:04 - Kobe?
27:05 Who is that?
27:07 - Yes, that is an actual scene from "Scary Movie 2."
27:11 This is the long tale of our story.
27:16 After the work ended,
27:17 the beef faded gradually into more of a meme
27:21 than an open conflict.
27:23 Each guy got what he wanted, got older,
27:26 and got comfortable laughing about the past.
27:28 At a distance and eventually as friends.
27:31 There's one particularly famous moment
27:34 from this era of gradual detente.
27:37 It happened in 2008, after Shaq's fourth title,
27:41 but before Kobe won his fourth and fifth.
27:44 In June '08, days after the Kobe-centric Lakers
27:49 lost in the NBA finals,
27:51 Shaq got on stage at a club in New York
27:54 and performed a freestyle rap, largely directed at Kobe.
27:59 - Check it, you know how I be.
28:01 Last week, Kobe couldn't do without me.
28:04 - One line stole the show and it became a meme of its own.
28:09 - Okay, Kobe, tell me how my ass tastes.
28:13 - And listen, that makes sense.
28:16 Kobe, how my ass tastes is catchy.
28:18 Shaq repeated it like a dozen times
28:20 and he got the whole crowd to join in.
28:22 Kobe says he had a laugh at it.
28:24 All in good fun.
28:26 But here's the thing.
28:27 While how my ass tastes is funny
28:30 in a vague, competitive, sports-focused way,
28:34 this is something else.
28:36 - Kobe ratted me out.
28:38 That's why I'm getting divorced.
28:40 He said Shaq gave a bitch a meal.
28:42 I don't do that 'cause my name's Shaquille.
28:45 - That is Shaq referencing Kobe's police interrogation
28:49 and his well-known statement about Shaq therein.
28:52 And it's Shaq suggesting that statement
28:55 was responsible for his divorce,
28:57 which was an actual thing that came to pass.
29:01 That's real and pretty dark.
29:04 Which is to say, not everything can just fade.
29:09 Not everything can be laughed off.
29:11 There were genuine regrets,
29:13 real scars on both sides of this relationship.
29:16 When Kobe went on Shaq's podcast in 2015,
29:21 they voiced regret in two different forms.
29:24 Shaq framed things the way he often does.
29:27 He stoked the beef in front of media
29:29 because it was business,
29:31 because it was the heat of the moment,
29:32 or in order to exert control.
29:35 Shaq said a lot of stuff he didn't mean.
29:38 Kobe, on the other hand, said a few things he did mean,
29:42 things that came to make him feel
29:44 like he was an idiot as a kid.
29:45 By saying all this stuff to the media,
29:49 they synthesized beef.
29:51 They generated pressure.
29:52 If 2004 was when Kobe realized
29:57 he had to pull back from the public beef
29:59 and apologize directly for the stuff he regretted,
30:02 then Shaq's version of the same came a few years later.
30:06 O'Neal and Bryant were teammates again for one night.
30:10 On February 15th, 2009,
30:13 they were both Western Conference All-Stars.
30:16 Kobe still a Laker, Shaq with the Phoenix Suns.
30:20 This was when the world first really saw Shaq and Kobe
30:24 enjoying each other's company again.
30:26 They practiced together, played together,
30:29 had fun making baskets together,
30:31 even if the baskets didn't count.
30:32 At game's end, Shaq and Kobe shared MVP honors,
30:38 and Kobe told Shaq to give the trophy to his son, Sharif,
30:42 at which point something clicked for the big guy.
30:45 He was open and vulnerable about this in 2018.
30:49 - Told me to take the trophy home.
30:52 - That's right.
30:52 - You know that?
30:53 - I did.
30:54 - And I took it home and I gave it to Sharif.
30:55 - Yeah.
30:56 - And I realized then, I was like,
30:58 I think I may have messed something up,
31:00 because a lot of times that our beef was going on,
31:03 you know me, I'm the master marketer.
31:05 About 60% of the time, I would just say it
31:07 just to keep it going.
31:08 Luckily, I won three out of four with this guy,
31:11 but I was a (beep) to this guy.
31:13 So I owe you an apology, I'm gonna give you an apology,
31:16 but we ain't gonna be doing all that crying
31:18 and all that shit I said.
31:20 - They did win three out of four,
31:22 but because one or the other couldn't stay satisfied,
31:26 and because that dissatisfaction went public,
31:30 those three rings could have been relegated
31:33 to a B story in the shared legacy
31:35 of an all-time great sports partnership.
31:37 All along, this was the solution.
31:41 Shaq and Kobe were better off speaking to each other,
31:45 not about each other.
31:47 That didn't happen enough when they were teammates.
31:50 It hurts to know it can't happen any longer,
31:52 but it did happen.
31:53 Because they spoke,
31:56 because they resolved their differences in public,
31:59 their shared legacy can look more like this,
32:02 better measured in titles than in beef.
32:05 Shaq and Kobe made mistakes in their relationship.
32:09 They made demands, they made accusations,
32:12 they made headlines, they made a mess.
32:16 But when that was all behind them, they made up.
32:18 And even as it happened, they made baskets.
32:23 (somber music)
32:26 (gentle music)
32:29 (gentle music)
32:31 (gentle music)
32:34 (gentle music)
32:36 (electronic music)