During this week's episode, Joe and Graham discuss the 2-1 win versus Plymouth, pressing jargon, Graham's games, 'peak Donnohue', Michael Skubala's new challenge and an unflattering nickname.
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00:00 Hello, welcome back to the inside Ellen road podcasts now available to watch on demand
00:07 on shots TV and free view channel two seven six. I'm your host Joe Donahue. Alongside
00:12 me is why P chief football writer Graham Smith. And once again, we're here to discuss Leeds
00:17 United. Farc ball has delivered six wins out of the last seven, the gap to the automatic
00:22 promotion places has been cut from 14 points to eight in the last two weeks. And even leads
00:26 players not currently at Ellen road showing signs of life. It's a great time to be covering
00:31 the club supporting the team and getting along to matches where I have to say there's a real
00:36 convivial atmosphere. Some would say the job of following Leeds United currently has been
00:40 made so easy, you'd be able to play football manager 2024 handheld at halftime. Hey, Graham.
00:45 Well, I don't know about that. I mean, I personally would have my head in the game, you know,
00:51 thinking about what I just seen thinking about what's to come. So I certainly wouldn't be
00:55 a fan of that. But, but I, I would just like to make a point about the new handheld mobile
01:03 football manager. Do you know that Yampa Veda is proving a tremendous mentor for one of
01:10 my wonder kids who's a winger and he's brought on his dribbling ability fantastically well,
01:16 sadly at the same time, the kids leadership skills have gone down, but I'm not really,
01:23 I didn't bring him in to be a leader. I brought him in to be, you know, incredible with the
01:27 ball at his feet and Yampa Veda might not be playing right now for my team, but he is,
01:31 he is doing the business as a mentor. So it's interesting the game. I quite like looking
01:36 at Leeds a couple of years, a couple of seasons in and seeing who's still there and seeing
01:40 who I can maybe pinch. I can't get near Pascal Stroik. You know, I've had a go a couple of
01:45 times and they're just, the money that they're asking is absolutely out of this world. Farke
01:50 is still there by the way. He's doing a good job in the premier league. And I think that's
01:58 about all from my Leeds United updates from football manager. But if I think of any more
02:03 during the show, I'll let you know.
02:06 It's interesting that you mentioned you can't get near Pascal Stroik virtually as well as
02:10 in real life because they won't simply won't let you near him within 50 feet of the good
02:17 looking handsome Dutchman as well. But yeah, I mean, we'll get onto some more whimsical
02:23 stuff in due course, but I think where we have to begin with this week's episode is
02:28 with the victory over Plymouth Argyle the weekend 2-1. Another game in which, you know,
02:33 at full time you had a few people who had a couple of gripes about how Leeds hadn't
02:37 really killed the game and maybe let Plymouth back into it and had a sniff of getting a
02:41 point. But at the end of the day, it was three points. The first half in particular was really
02:46 professional. Ruthless, I think you'd have to say as well. And yeah, the team are really
02:54 purring at the moment.
02:56 Yeah, six wins out of seven is really, really good form. That blip against Stoke is all
03:04 the more annoying now, isn't it? Because it would have been a perfect seven. But yeah,
03:10 a win's a win. And Daniel Farker was concerned about this game. In fact, I think we talked
03:16 about it, not on the pod, but I think we mentioned it between ourselves last week. That line
03:22 from Farker in his press conference about needing the crowd to be absolutely at it.
03:27 We did talk about it on the podcast and he could sense that there was a potential sucker
03:33 punch coming because everything was going too well. 'All too easy' was how he phrased
03:37 it. Because they'd played so well against Leicester, everybody was pumping up their
03:41 tyres, saying how good the players were and it was all deserved stuff, deserved praise.
03:46 And then he said the training week went so well that in his gut he was thinking, 'This
03:50 is going too easy. We could be in for a sucker punch here.' Game before an international
03:56 break, a game that you're expected to win, a game against an opponent that hasn't played
03:59 against you since I was a boy and hasn't beaten you since I was a very small boy. And yeah,
04:09 Plymouth's big day out at Ellen Road. They'd have been absolutely well up for an upset.
04:13 So you could just see that there was this little bit of a narrative of what could have
04:16 happened. So winning the game is the absolute priority. I think it's a slightly different
04:23 case to the Huddersfield game where they went 4-0 up and they were home and hosed by half-time.
04:27 It wasn't like that against Plymouth, but it could have been. And really it should have
04:32 been by 65, 70 minutes. They should have been completely out of sight. But they did the
04:37 job and even though they conceded, they didn't really give away many chances after that.
04:44 Plymouth had a bit of pressure, but they didn't really make Melie work too hard, did they?
04:50 No. I was surprised looking at the end of the game. The xG was around 1.5 for Leeds
04:55 and 1.4 for Plymouth. I thought, 'Well, that's a lot closer than I imagined it would be.'
05:00 But I think the vast, overwhelming majority of that xG for Plymouth was the goal that
05:05 they scored, which was across from the right. And Ben Wayne is not going to miss from a
05:10 yard out as the ball's coming across. So obviously that's a high value chance. Didn't really
05:16 create a great deal apart from that. And yes, it was a little bit nervy at Ellon Road in
05:21 those last 15 minutes or so. But can you think of one chance that Plymouth had which made
05:27 you really think, 'Okay, they're really pushing here'? They had the ball, they had the possession,
05:32 they had the territory, but they didn't really do much with it. And I think that ultimately
05:36 comes down to the fact that the defence were relatively solid throughout that period.
05:41 Yes, I can. I can think of one moment where Rodon went in and won a big challenge in the
05:47 area and had he not done so, they would have been in trouble. But beyond that, I'm struggling.
05:54 I know Melie made a couple of saves during the game, but at the same time, that spell
05:59 that Plymouth had, Leeds were still dangerous in that spell. Leeds still had counter-attacks
06:05 and chances. Nyanthu should have scored. Nyanthu and Bamford should have combined to score.
06:11 Routier should have had two, probably, on the day. Jadon Anthony, he had a chance as
06:19 well from memory. He had a shot that took a neck and went wide. So yes, Leeds could
06:25 have won at a counter. I think more interesting is probably the penalty debate. Should Plymouth
06:30 have had one?
06:31 I mean, I was sympathetic to Steven Schumacher, the Plymouth coach, after the game because
06:36 I do think that he was going on about how you could hear the contact. I'm not sure whether
06:43 that's true because you are quite far away and Elland Road is quite a loud stadium. But
06:48 if he says he's heard contact between the two players' boots and Ampadu hasn't got the
06:54 ball, then yes, I think you've got an argument. There's maybe an argument that says that
07:01 the foul, if there is a foul, begins outside of the box with Ampadu with his hands all
07:05 over Barley Mamba. I mean, at that point in the game, I still don't think that Leeds would
07:13 have got anything other than a win, even if Plymouth had got a penalty and then scored
07:18 it. So it's much of a muchness to me. It seems like now a very obsolete argument. But yeah,
07:27 it's one of those where fortunately the decision went Leeds' way, which hasn't always been
07:32 the case in recent memory. So I think it's probably best just to accept it and move on.
07:40 I imagine he has accepted it by now, but he was quite irked by it in his post-game chat.
07:51 What were the performances that you particularly enjoyed? Because I thought Joe Rodon, not
07:57 just for what he did, wick ball and way out ball, but his leadership, like his barking
08:06 orders, his screaming at fellow defenders, his telling attackers to hold on to the ball,
08:11 to get the ball, get him to team up the pitch. It was like having two captains at centre-back.
08:16 Yeah, and there's actually a very, very good series of pictures that were published after
08:23 the game, which show Liam Cooper pointing to somebody and barking in an instruction.
08:28 And then sort of out of focus in the background, you've got Joe Rodon doing exactly the same,
08:32 which I really liked. Nice little bit of symmetry in that, the past and the present and possibly
08:41 the future, who knows? But yeah, I think Rodon was the standout for me. In a game where Leeds
08:49 were like the press was on point in attack, some of the attacking patterns and some of
08:54 the passing was really, really crisp. I think to say that Rodon was at least my man of the
09:01 match kind of shows how effective he was. I think I tweeted something at full time with
09:05 a few sort of headline statistics from him during the game, 10 recoveries or something
09:10 like that, which is a good number, shows his reading of the game was on point. Really,
09:17 really good with his passing. And we both picked it out during the first half. In Pascal
09:21 Stroik's absence, he was the one, Rodon being, was the one picking those balls, making those
09:29 line breaking passes, similar to what, not in the same vein, but similar to what Ben
09:33 White did a couple of years ago, just breaking that first initial line of the opposition's
09:39 formation, disrupting their press and really asking questions. So yeah, I think it was
09:48 probably Rodon's best. He's now similar to Glen Kamara, putting together some really
09:54 consistent displays back to in back-to-back weeks. And yeah, it's, it's, it's looking
10:01 like a really, really smart bit of business.
10:03 And the most important thing was that Rodon did not ruin our opportunity to run the interview
10:09 that I conducted with him before the game, a couple of days before the game, because
10:13 there's always that feeling in the pit of your stomach. You've done an interview. That's
10:16 going to be quite a positive piece, you know, talking about how well things are going. And
10:21 then if Rodon scores a hat-trick of own goals, you know, the perfect hat-trick of own goals,
10:25 left foot, right foot, header, and gets sent off, then that interview could never really
10:31 see the light of day. And it would have been a grand waste of everybody's time. So it was
10:35 quite nice that he, he capped off that week, a good week, with a good performance. And
10:44 now he bounces into the Wales camp, doesn't he, with Ampadu and little Dan James, Captain
10:50 Endproduct himself, and they go into the camp in very good form and in very good mood?
10:58 Yeah, they've got two big qualifiers coming up. Obviously, there is the international
11:02 break and we've waited at least 10 minutes to complain about that fact. But I'll be watching
11:07 the Wales games with a keen eye, just to see how they get on, because you'd imagine that
11:11 all three will play. You'd imagine all three will start, considering how important they
11:15 are and how important they have been to Leeds this season. It's Armenia first and then Turkey,
11:21 I believe, if they're going to qualify for Euro 2024. I mean, I don't want to be the
11:29 eternal pessimist, but I think that might be a bridge too far. But hey, I'd like to
11:33 be proved wrong, because that would be great for the spirits.
11:37 How dare you? How dare you cast such doubt on one of the home nations? I don't know.
11:44 Just because you met Joe Roden last week and you become best mates?
11:47 I don't know. I just think there's a chance. I think there's a chance. Ex-Chesterfield
11:54 man Rob Page at the helm. Isn't it funny though that the Welsh FA so recently cast doubt on
12:01 his position and then were forced into a grovelling climb down because they won a game and everything
12:08 turned around and the players were all like, "This wasn't very helpful" after the game.
12:13 It's almost like suits just don't always know what's best.
12:17 I was just going to say, it's almost like suits should be seen when there's a check
12:22 to be signed and not heard, now and again, which is something we should talk about later
12:28 actually about Leeds United and the 49ers, because they did hold a meeting with the Trust,
12:36 but it's all been very, very low key. None of it's been conducted publicly. They were
12:41 asked not to take notes because it was just a meeting with the fans, that kind of thing.
12:47 It's almost like they're going to talk when there's something to say, which after the
12:52 last few years and some of the tweets and some of the interviews and some of the unfortunate
12:58 comments that were made by people in high ranking positions or positions of authority
13:04 at Leeds, it's maybe a good thing to have just a very sober and almost background profile
13:14 for the new owners.
13:15 Yeah, I mean, speaking of background profiles, it was quite telling as I arrived for the
13:21 game on Saturday that just before the team bus arrived, you do get your autograph hunters
13:27 and kids wanting to meet their heroes and that sort of thing, lined up outside the press,
13:33 media and scouts entrance, which of course you'll be familiar with, but if anyone else
13:37 isn't, it's behind the West stand. I'm right in front of that. Yeah. And the team bus sort
13:45 of comes in there. And before that happened, as I was walking through the crowds, Greta
13:51 Steinsson, who's obviously the new technical director, was walking presumably to his car
13:57 and I turned around and had a look to see, is anybody going to clock that that's Greta
14:03 and nobody did. No one, no one cottoned on that that was him. And I thought that's very
14:09 fitting with the way that this whole restructure is gone, because can you imagine if that was
14:14 Victor Orta, you know, just going to drop his suit carry off back into his car before
14:19 a game, he'd have been mobbed, you know, for good or for bad, depending on the time at
14:26 which he did it in his, in his Leeds career. But yeah, I thought that was, that was quite,
14:33 I don't know, maybe that's just the journalist in me looking at things and seeing a deeper
14:36 meaning. But no, you do make a good point. I think Nick Hammond could spend a Saturday
14:43 afternoon wandering around Ellen road, clipping people's heels. And nobody would be any the
14:50 wiser as to who he was. Would he apologise each time? Just go, sorry. Yeah. And nobody
14:58 would have any idea. I honestly think that that most people could not pick him out of
15:02 a lineup and yet he's held quite a important position, well, hugely important position
15:07 at the club and continues to do so because we've heard absolutely no noise about an exit.
15:11 Certainly doesn't seem to be any intention to bring the relationship to a close. So yeah,
15:17 there is this kind of sense that the top people beyond Farker, well, I don't want to say beyond
15:24 Farker because I know that Farker sits in a very, very senior capacity at Leeds and
15:27 that's why he wanted to be manager. You know, that's why he had essentially control, you
15:32 would say over the transfer window and who they got. But the suits at his level or the
15:38 ones above who've employed him are seen because they're there in the director's box, but they're
15:46 not making it about them. They're not drawing attention. They're not drawing fire. They're
15:52 not starting fires. Yeah, it all feels quite low key, sensible, quiet.
16:01 Yeah, sensible suits. So I mean, if you don't come up with something better over the next
16:07 40 minutes or so, then I think that's this week's episode title.
16:13 I think we should get back to the Plymouth game because it is worth mentioning just how
16:19 effective Leeds were. I touched on the press that was very suffocating from the front.
16:26 I looked into some of the data this week to sort of reflect that and thankfully to a Leeds
16:33 fan who works at Opta, Jamie, he was able to help me with some stats there.
16:39 Can I just jump in and make a prediction? I reckon what you're going to say is something
16:45 along the lines of, because what I've seen this season would make me think this, that
16:50 Leeds are probably in the top three in the division for when a team makes an intervention
16:55 after a number of passes. I reckon they're only letting teams have something like three
16:59 passes before they make a defensive intervention. Just what I think, but you carry on.
17:05 What's that called? What would you describe that as?
17:09 Public displays of affection. What is it? PP... Go on, go on, tell us all.
17:15 PPDA. Passes per defensive action. And Graeme, would you like to expand on that, on what
17:22 that means?
17:23 That's basically how many passes a team allows the opposition to have before getting a foot
17:29 in.
17:30 Yeah, basically that. And it's like a tackle, an interception, anything that, a block, anything
17:37 that can categorise as a defensive action. Leeds have the third most aggressive in the
17:44 league. So it shows that Leeds are a pressing side when they're out of possession. But when
17:51 they have the ball, and they do have a lot of it, they're good with it as well. Lots
17:54 of build up attacks, lots of direct attacks as well. So versatile is how I'd describe
18:00 Farc ball so far. But as well, if you'd like to not rudely interrupt, and bear in mind,
18:06 I do have the power to mute you, so I will. The number of shot ending high turnovers,
18:13 there's a little bit of jargon here, but I think I back myself enough to explain it.
18:19 So a high turnover would be when you win the ball back in the opposition's half, or the
18:25 actual term is within 40 metres of the opposition's goal. So basically, what Jesse Marsh wanted
18:32 his team to do all the time was just high turnovers, high turnovers, give the ball away,
18:38 and then win the ball on the edge of the opposition's box. Leeds are doing that more often, and then
18:44 turning those possessions into a shot more than any other team in the championship. They're
18:49 also joint top for turning those high turnovers, retrieving possession in dangerous areas,
18:56 into goals as well. So they've had 33 shot ending high turnovers, which is I think seven
19:02 more than the next best in the league. And they've scored five times from those, which
19:07 is joint best with Sunderland and West Brom. Which says that, I mean, there's been stuff
19:16 made about whether Joel Pirro is tailor made for the pressing structure. And I think one
19:23 of the things that Daniel Farker said in that lengthy answer about why he's playing Jorginho
19:29 at nine and Pirro in ten is because Jorgi leads the press from the front, and he's that
19:34 type of player, whereas Pirro isn't. I think those sorts of statistics and numbers prove
19:42 that Farker knows what he's doing when it comes to causing problems for opposition teams
19:47 who might want to try and play out from the back. We saw that twice against Plymouth,
19:51 didn't we?
19:52 Yeah, that's what really impressed me, I think, was that their goals were not just about flair
19:57 and skill. I saw a suggestion recently from someone who was a bit frustrated with Leeds
20:03 suggesting that they were relying too much on 1v1 skill, individual technical brilliance
20:10 to get them through. And I suppose there's an element of you're able to do that when
20:16 you have players that are better than the opposition and lead to, in most games, their
20:21 attackers are better than the players they're up against. But the goals they scored against
20:25 Plymouth came from Glenn Kamara realising that Plymouth were trying to play out or trying
20:29 to clear. And he closed the player down so quickly that it rushed the clearance straight
20:37 to the feet of Dan James and bang, he pinged one in from outside the edge of the area.
20:42 The second goal, Chris Somerville tracked his man back and backed himself to get a foot
20:47 in and get the ball, despite giving the defender a head start and being behind him. He caught
20:52 up with him, he took the ball, he turns, he runs, Piro on the overlap, 2-0. It was so
21:00 effective in such an efficient way. It's almost like that's exactly the point of pressing.
21:09 That is the exact thing you want to do every time, is to press, win the ball back and then
21:13 hurt a team very, very quickly. Which is exactly, I suppose, what Jesse Marsh wanted his team
21:20 to do. It's just that they weren't particularly capable of doing it. Was it a real thing or
21:28 have I just created it in my mind that he said or believed that sometimes it would mean
21:35 giving the ball away in order to win it back in a better place?
21:40 No that does ring a bell. I can't remember specifically when it was said because there
21:45 was a lot that was said. But it does ring a very faint bell in my head.
21:53 I don't think I'll ever be able to reconcile myself with that as a tactic I'd want to see.
22:01 I suppose this season particularly because, like we said, Leeds have better players so
22:05 you want the ball because you know that you can do something good with it. But I think
22:09 it feels to me like a modern tactical jargon way of saying put it in behind and turn them.
22:17 Basically just putting the ball behind the centre backs and forcing them to turn and
22:21 then try and play out. I just don't like it.
22:27 Most teams are capable of playing out from the back nowadays though aren't they? When
22:33 you said it's not a tactical point that you quite like, I knew that because when you leaned
22:39 over as I was trying to do some work at half time and you were shoving your phone in my
22:43 face and going 'look at this' I could see on your football manager save that 'give the
22:49 opposition the ball' wasn't one of your tactical instructions. I just want to say to anybody
22:55 listening or watching, I think I'm convinced that Graham plays on easy or like beginner
23:00 because you were beating Bayern Munich or something 6-0 with a team who are not Bayern
23:05 Munich's quality shall we say.
23:06 That was a pre-season friendly so I don't think they were quite at it. Now it's all
23:13 eyes on New York Stadium for the return game which is as soon as it possibly can be, being
23:22 on the Friday night. That's something else we should talk about. Farke's complaint, does
23:27 he have grounds for a complaint on a sporting fairness basis?
23:35 It's very Klopp-esque I think in the fairest sense. Teams do feel short-changed over the
23:43 course of a season and will. It's not just Leeds who are going to be short-changed by
23:49 that. Yes, okay, Rotherham don't have many internationals and less Leeds. Sorry?
23:56 Three.
23:57 They have three?
23:58 Yeah.
23:59 Which are?
24:00 Victor Johansen, the keeper.
24:02 Your mate?
24:03 What did you say?
24:04 Your mate?
24:05 Yes, yeah. I interviewed him last season, he was great. What's the Northern Irish lad?
24:13 McGulkin, the attacker.
24:16 Do Northern Irish players count as full internationals?
24:20 That's enough. They have a Jamaican lad as well. Dexter, what's his face? You'd think
24:28 that I hadn't written this literally in a story yesterday. They only have three who
24:33 are away and Leeds have 18 in all, including youth internationals.
24:39 In all with the 21s included. The headline figure is that seven of the players who started
24:44 against Plymouth are away. You've got the likes of Georginio Routa who will likely be
24:51 playing in a friendly for France under-21s on Monday night, then returning, having effectively
24:56 a day of recovery, a day to train and then Rotherham on the Friday. It's not ideal but
25:05 again this is the football calendar.
25:08 It is. Also a point that I think shouldn't be missed is that Rotherham have no manager
25:14 because they've just sacked Matty Taylor, another good friend of mine. They're also
25:20 Rotherham United going up against Leeds United and the scale of the resources available to
25:25 both teams, the ability level of the players in both squads. I can see where Fark is coming
25:32 from in terms of some of our players won't get to train with us. He's probably a little
25:37 bit concerned about players going into it a bit tired, at risk of injury because of
25:42 the travel, because of not having trained with Leeds.
25:45 He has a very strong physiological argument.
25:49 Yes, yes he does for the rest of the season but in terms of a sporting fairness when it
25:55 comes to Rotherham, I think the deck is still stacked very favourably for Leeds United and
26:04 they should have more than enough to go there and do terrible things to the Millers.
26:10 Yeah, I did not think that was going to be the way you signed off with that bit but the
26:18 reason I say that it's a bit Klopp-esque and that's not for Leeds fans who listen to
26:23 this podcast and don't particularly like Liverpool or Jurgen Klopp. That's not me being lazy
26:27 and thinking well it's two German managers complaining about the demands on their players.
26:32 I think it's more to do with the fact that the fatigue argument and also the fact that
26:39 Farka does occasionally say but he goes into, he makes a complaint and then quickly backs
26:47 it up with "but we can't complain and we don't complain about this".
26:50 Yeah, this is the reality.
26:52 "Daniel, actually, going to have to call you there".
26:56 I'm going to start using that in and around the house. Whenever I see something that's
27:02 not quite to my liking or a chore that hasn't been done, I'm going to say exactly, I'm going
27:08 to complain and then I'm going to say "but this is the reality, I have to deal with this,
27:13 we don't complain about this, we deal with it".
27:16 We are the Smith family, yes.
27:18 I'm trying to think if there's anything else from his press conference that jumped out.
27:27 He was asked about Routier again and he made the point again, if he was the finished article,
27:34 prolific as well as uber creative, then he wouldn't be essentially. He certainly wouldn't
27:40 be playing for Leeds United in the Championship if that were the case.
27:45 Will a week or a week and a bit with Thierry Henry make him materially better at finishing?
27:51 Possibly not, but it would be nice if Thierry Henry could show him a trick or two, or even
27:57 just share some of his mentality. I think even just spending time around Thierry Henry,
28:04 for someone like Routier, young, loves football, very bubbly, I imagine it'll be quite exciting
28:10 for him. He might just come back in even finer fettle than he's been in recently. I think
28:17 he's young enough to cope with the demands in terms of travel and demands in terms of
28:22 the physical aspect. He certainly hasn't looked, I don't recall too many times when he's looked
28:28 leggy this season. He gallops around the pitch, he puts in an enormous shift. There was that
28:34 great passage of play on Saturday where he had the ball down by the corner flag again
28:39 and he held it up and he held it up. He passed it off and he got it back and he did a flick.
28:46 He's looked strong in the latter stages of games and particularly as teams have tired,
28:50 he's looked more dangerous on the counter. I think he'll likely be fine for Rotherham
28:54 unless he picks up a knock.
28:57 Don't say it. We can all think it, but don't say it.
29:00 It would be absolutely superb if he came back and scored exactly the kind of goal that Thierry
29:05 Henry was famed for scoring. Then we could all say, "There it is, the Thierry Henry effect."
29:12 Then Farke will have to very quickly crush that under his heel because he is the manager
29:19 who's had the biggest impact on Jorginho Rousseau this season.
29:22 I did like Farke's response to the question which suggested that working with Henry could
29:27 potentially improve him. He basically just unpacked it and completely unpicked it and
29:31 went, "Well, it's ten days. Is he going to materially improve in ten days?"
29:37 He's going to completely unprogram Rotherham and put him back together entirely in ten
29:46 days.
29:47 He also dealt quite brusquely with my question about Sam Byron popping up in the number ten
29:54 position because it is a feature of Farke's style that his left back will suddenly appear
30:01 centrally. Byron makes a lot of really good runs, cutting in from the left, diagonal runs
30:08 towards the middle of the box to make himself an option for passes or to try and join in
30:13 with an attack.
30:14 He set up Somerville, who's just offside, goal disallowed. The right back as well, we've
30:19 seen when Ayling's played, he's been playing like a second winger. Archie Gray, when he
30:26 was in centre midfield, dropping into the right back position to get the ball from the
30:29 back and help them play out.
30:32 These things are all, I suppose by now, they're not unexpected positions. Farke's point was,
30:37 "Well, this is expected because this is my plan and it's what I've told him to do."
30:42 Positional rotations are important. I wonder if he's got any up his sleeve that we haven't
30:47 yet seen, based on a player's profile, a player that he hasn't used quite yet. I wonder if
30:53 he's got any surprises up his sleeve.
30:55 What, like he's going to turn Jan Pervader into a centre half?
30:59 Jan Pervader popping up at centre half.
31:01 That would be brilliant, wouldn't it? I mean, he isn't the tallest at Man Utd, is he? But
31:07 I think Pervader might be a bit of a stretch.
31:10 Berardi wasn't the tallest, but Bielsa used to have Berardi marking either the first or
31:15 second best header of the ball in the opposition because he had such a springy leap on him.
31:21 There is that and also the fact that Berardi, I'm convinced, was raised by wolves in the
31:24 Alps. He does have that dog in him, so to speak.
31:31 I think he might have raised himself in the Alps. I'm not sure anyone helped, at least
31:35 of all creatures like that. It'd be interesting to see how things evolve with Farke and Leeds
31:45 this season tactically because I think by now we've seen his style. He said from the
31:51 outset he didn't need to convince anybody at Leeds of his style at the interview stage
31:55 because they know how he plays football. But as Leeds get better, as Spence perhaps comes
32:01 back in, how that will impact things and will it change the way they play and once Stroik
32:07 gets back in as well. If we ever reach a point where Leeds are at full strength and what
32:12 you'd call their strongest on-paper team, how exactly they'll play and who will be the
32:19 most influential players in that.
32:22 Just thinking about Spence coming back, and he should be back in team training to use
32:26 a Farke-ism by next week, I think. He said seven to 14 days last week, didn't he? You'd
32:34 expect him to be back second week of the international break. Maybe probably an outside bet for this
32:40 squad for Rotherham, probably too soon for that. But certainly in the fixtures to come,
32:44 I think the type of player that Spence is and the pedigree and the track record that
32:49 he has in the championship, once he gets up to full speed, could be the Leif Davies of
32:56 this Leeds team but sort of inverse, on the right instead of the left. Because Leif Davies
33:01 at the moment has created the most chances of any player in the championship this season
33:05 for Ipswich. That could be the function or the role that Spence fulfils for Leeds, being
33:16 a real chance creation person on that flank.
33:20 You're looking at me really puzzled. Have you gone off the screen?
33:24 No, I was just wondering what makes him… is it his passing? Is it his crossing, Spence?
33:33 I know he's quick.
33:35 It's his dribbling, it's his ball carrying. I think the way that he gets into the final
33:39 third with his ball carrying is unlike many other players at this level.
33:44 I do enjoy a player who can dribble.
33:49 Which is why we like Jorginho and Somerville, right?
33:52 Exactly. And they're both very different, those two, in the way that they dribble as
33:56 well. You don't remember Kree using too many stepovers and too many roulettes and things
34:04 like that. But he's just so quick and he's a quick, jinky winger, isn't he? He goes in
34:09 and out, he goes left and right, goes to either side and he shifts very, very quickly. Whereas
34:14 Routier has got that… you just have no idea what he's going to do with the ball. And also
34:19 he's a brute, so he uses his strength a lot in his dribbling.
34:23 More languid, isn't he? Routier.
34:25 Yeah. Somerville's more like he's on rails. Or like the bunny at the Greyhound tracks
34:30 that just no one can catch. Or the hare.
34:35 Spence more like Routier in his dribbling style, would you say?
34:41 I'd probably say he's… because he's a fullback, he's probably more up and down. So he probably
34:46 goes back and forth. A straight line runner. But I do think that he has the capacity to
34:52 maybe move infield a little bit. Whereas you look at the way that Cody Drama used to dribble,
34:57 for example, when he did dribble. And that was very sort of… he was a sort of a vertical
35:04 type player. He was back and forth, didn't really cut inside too much, but he was able
35:09 to get up and down. I think Spence has the capacity to maybe cut inside, drop of the
35:13 shoulder a little bit. I mean, I'm basing that off some watching of Middlesbrough at
35:18 the start of the season and when he was actually there. So I could be talking absolute rubbish.
35:25 Let's hope so. Let's talk about the second coming of Junior Firpo. Or the potential second
35:32 coming of Junior Firpo. Because it feels like there's an opportunity here for him. He's
35:37 not going to rewrite history. And he's not going to change everyone's minds about him.
35:45 But he could be quite an important player. And it's almost… well, it's serendipitous,
35:53 isn't it, that he's come back literally as Sam Byram has got injured. So there's like
36:00 a handing over of the baton for however many games it will be. Maybe one, maybe two, maybe
36:06 another one. Byram's injury leads were very, very quick to tell us after the game was not
36:12 linked to his previous surgeries. It's not a recurrence of that. It's a normal hamstring
36:17 strain.
36:18 Great. So it's just a new part of him that's broken.
36:23 But broken in a way that should easily mend itself, I think.
36:28 Like foreshores.
36:33 So while Byram's out, I mean, I'm supposing, I'm surmising that Firpo will be fit enough
36:41 to play from the start. Although Farke did say, didn't he, that he played more minutes
36:46 than he would have liked against Plymouth. Two weeks on, will he be able to start? Or
36:51 do you think Shackleton, once he's got his little glute fixed, do you think Shackleton
36:57 comes in at left back?
36:59 I think he could probably start, Firpo. Even if he plays 60 minutes and then brings Shaxx
37:03 on for the last half an hour. I mean, they've got a few days off now, haven't they, at
37:10 the beginning of this first week of the international break. But when they get back into training,
37:14 they'll be, I mean, Firpo's one of the few that is remaining. So you'll be, you'll actually,
37:22 I liken it to a classroom at school where you've got fewer students in the classroom.
37:28 They get more attention by the teacher. You know, if it's a class of 10 rather than a
37:31 class of 30.
37:34 Junior still spends most of his time telling off Paveda, people like that.
37:43 Can you pick up yellow cards in classrooms? I think Junior would be a...
37:50 It's not a yellow card. It's a time out, isn't it? Or a consequence. I think it's...
37:56 Name written on the board.
37:57 Yeah, name written on the board. Don't make me do it, Junior. Don't make me put your name
38:01 up here. You'll be inside during break. He's an interesting one, Junior Firpo. I thought
38:09 he'd go. I thought he should have gone in the summer. That was my prediction and how
38:13 I felt that, you know, it had just run its course and it hadn't really worked out. But
38:18 you never know. He might play a big part in this promotion. Very, very attacking player.
38:24 Not as defensively sound as Byram. Byram, to his credit, has been really good at both
38:30 sides of the game. So any absence for him is a bit of a blow for Leeds. But this is
38:34 where your squad depth comes in, isn't it? And it's tested. So let's see how Firpo does.
38:41 Yeah, it's an area which Leeds haven't really had squad depth in recent seasons. So it's
38:45 nice to have it. And I'm not going to complain about it. I think he was absolutely fine coming
38:50 on against Plymouth. I think in the aftermath of the game, I remember thinking I was having
38:54 a chat with one of my mates. He was saying he was at the game, so he hadn't seen a replay
38:59 yet. He was asking who was at fault for the Ben Wayne goal. And out of instinct, because
39:06 of where the cross came from, I said Firpo. And then we sort of assessed it afterwards
39:11 and looked at the clip and said, well, actually, no, Firpo's man, he actually has tracked.
39:16 And I think Cooper's a little bit flat-footed in getting to the byline, which allows the
39:23 cross to come in. And as a result, Rodon's had to shuffle over and so forth. But yeah,
39:29 please consider this my apology to junior Firpo for thinking that he was at fault for
39:33 that.
39:34 I think we've reached peak Donoghue where in a football discussion with a mate, you've
39:39 not simply just given an opinion and, yeah, I agree, and then moved on to talk about pints
39:45 or whatever else. You've actually gone and tactically analysed the scene. Shall we watch
39:50 it? Shall we watch it together?
39:52 I didn't actually get the clip up. It wasn't me.
39:57 This is the company you keep though, Joe. This is peak Donoghue. I think I would consider
40:03 the Plymouth game well and truly dealt with now. I don't think there's anything else that
40:08 we can possibly pluck from it. It wasn't really anything funny that happened particularly.
40:13 It was the South stands picking on the sartorial desires of one of the Plymouth fans.
40:18 Yeah, the guy getting absolutely getting nailed for his chinos.
40:23 Yeah, I hope anyone from the South stand is pleased with themselves who's listening right
40:29 now because Graeme went home straight away and was burning all of his lower half clothing
40:35 because that's all he wears is his big chino man.
40:37 I'm a big deckies man and I always have been and I'm not going to change just because the
40:43 South stand have absolutely destroyed someone for a series of, through a series of chants
40:50 over a period of around 25 minutes. It says a little bit about the second half as well
40:55 that it wasn't quite as high octane or that the jeopardy wasn't quite there because the
40:59 South stand were able to devote so much attention and time to a man wearing chinos. Maybe also
41:06 speaks to how much they trust this team now and how they felt the game was in control,
41:10 that they felt they could let their attention wander.
41:13 I did think this. There was a lot, on a number of occasions, there were a lot of people in
41:17 the South stand in that corner next to the away fans who were just looking over at the
41:21 away section. I was thinking, lads, there's a game going on here.
41:25 Yeah, but look, look at that guy's trousers.
41:30 There is a game happening here, which you've paid a pretty penny to come and see. But no,
41:34 I mean, yeah, I do think that's, maybe that's again, you being a journalist and looking
41:38 at the deeper meaning behind someone taking the mickey out of someone's trousers and what
41:44 it means for the wider, I don't know, the wider context of how well Leeds are doing
41:52 this season.
41:53 No, I think it speaks directly to the level of trust that Daniel Farker has imbued in
41:58 the fan base. Somebody tweeted it the other day about how normal this all feels and how
42:07 it feels normal for Leeds to win. Like turning up expecting Leeds to win, you know, that
42:12 hasn't been said for quite a long time. Even in the fantastic first season of the Premier
42:19 League under Bielsa, you didn't go into games thinking they're going to beat Spurs today.
42:24 You went in thinking they've got a chance of nicking a result, but you didn't expect
42:30 them to win. Whereas now, I know they've dropped on a division, but you turn up against almost
42:36 anyone and you think, yeah, Leeds have enough, have more than enough to win this.
42:41 And there is a level of expectation now.
42:44 I think as well, you look at the Championship, you look at the Football League, compared
42:49 to my first watching of the Championship, 15 years ago or so, whatever it was, I feel
42:56 as though the teams that are coming to Ellen Road now are a lot more professional, a lot
43:02 more advanced, definitely higher in quality in terms of the players and the sports science,
43:09 nutrition, all that sort of thing. All those little marginal gains will also contribute
43:16 to the fact that you can't be complacent.
43:19 And I think it's fair to reflect as well that yes, while there will have been some people
43:23 coming to Ellen Road last Saturday who were expecting a win, there were also fans who
43:30 were coming there who were expecting a defeat because of just the pessimism condition that
43:34 all Leeds fans appear to have. That, you know, we've won 5 out of 6, we beat top of the league
43:41 1-0 away from home, clean sheet, Plymouth, poor record away from home, long journey,
43:46 Leeds that. But no, they didn't.
43:49 I was just trying to work out why you'd have suddenly wanted to watch the Championship
43:54 15 years ago. I don't remember Syles Shields being in the Championship 15 years ago, but
43:59 there we go.
44:01 Very interesting. We should also discuss that there was a bit of a reshuffle in the
44:09 coaching set up at Leeds this week. Michael Scubala, the U21s head coach, has left to
44:15 join Lincoln City as their new boss in League 1, which is no doubt a great opportunity for
44:21 him. He's well liked, he's a popular figure at Thorpe Arch, very calmly spoken, very understated,
44:28 but very much knows his stuff. And, you know, Lincoln are not the first EFL club to have
44:35 had an interest in Scubala since he took over with Leeds' 21s at the beginning of last season.
44:42 I mean, Leeds have said, didn't they, in the statement they released that they're disappointed
44:46 to lose him, but are also quite proud of the fact that another coach who's worked in the
44:52 academy at Thorpe Arch has gone on to a senior managerial role or coaching role in the EFL.
44:59 And I think as well, he lands at a good club with a good track record of developing players
45:06 and developing coaches as well.
45:08 Yeah, Appleton was there for quite a while, wasn't they?
45:12 The Cowley brothers were as well, weren't they?
45:13 Yeah, they were. And they've gone on to Championship, working the Championship, haven't they, since?
45:20 So was it with Lincoln that the Cowley brothers beat Burnley?
45:27 And it was Burnley when Joey Barton was there. I'm sure they did, because they had the big
45:33 lummox up top. Yeah, an opportunity too good to miss, I think, for Scubala, you know, for
45:40 somebody who has ambitions to...
45:42 And I think he talked about wanting to be a manager in his own right when he was caretaker
45:47 of Leeds United, when he was... I think it was post-Man United away, when he got that
45:51 draw. And also, when somebody messaged me last night to say they thought he'd always
45:59 be with them or he thought he'd always stay or something, I had the kind of reaction,
46:03 "Well, the 21s job is not what it was at Leeds. It's not the same, because the 21s feels very,
46:11 very separate to the senior set-up."
46:13 Yes, there are young players who will, like Matteo Joseph and JB, who are kind of on the
46:20 fringe of the first team, but getting minutes with the 21s. But there isn't the same kind
46:25 of... Have we seen any senior players get in minutes in the 21s? There doesn't seem
46:32 to be the same... They were almost one squad, weren't they? Like, under Bielsa, they were
46:37 almost one squad, and that had carried on.
46:39 I suppose that was partly because of the fact that the squad was so small, though.
46:44 Yeah, and yes, he used them now and again, almost like mannequins. But there was a huge
46:51 amount of involvement at senior level for youngsters, and I think it's a little more
46:57 separate now. It certainly feels like the academy is very separate to the senior set-up,
47:04 and that's how Farke wants it. So I could kind of understand if the job maybe had lost
47:11 a little bit of its allure, if Scobel has, and we know he has, ambitions to work at a
47:17 senior level. So I can't say I'm overly surprised. I think my big surprise is that he hasn't
47:23 taken you as one of his assistants.
47:27 No, I'd definitely be rejecting that. Can't be letting down the listeners, can I?
47:32 I'm not sure how you see yourself at a higher level.
47:36 Look, all I'm going to say is, if Scobel remains at Lincoln and they are in need of a director
47:41 of football, then I'd need a very trusted team below me, because it is all about the
47:48 team. But if that role becomes available, then look, I'm not going to rule anything
47:54 out.
47:55 [Music]