Where to with all the data? About the mental in art as a virtual challenge.
With Nadine Oberste-Hetbleck, ZADIK, Cologne, Franziska Leuthäußer, Publisher Project Café Germany of the Städel Museum and Patricia Rahemipour, Institut für Museumsforschung, Berlin.
Host: Kathrin Luz.
(in German language)
Part of the talks series: Works & words, bytes & clouds, warehouses & archive: art in the age of its overproduction. What do the solutions look like for mastering what art production, art industries place into the world at all levels? What can an efficient knowledge transfer, a sustainable and sensible sharing of information and materials look like?
Art Cologne Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 17, 2023, 1:00-2:00 p.m.
With Nadine Oberste-Hetbleck, ZADIK, Cologne, Franziska Leuthäußer, Publisher Project Café Germany of the Städel Museum and Patricia Rahemipour, Institut für Museumsforschung, Berlin.
Host: Kathrin Luz.
(in German language)
Part of the talks series: Works & words, bytes & clouds, warehouses & archive: art in the age of its overproduction. What do the solutions look like for mastering what art production, art industries place into the world at all levels? What can an efficient knowledge transfer, a sustainable and sensible sharing of information and materials look like?
Art Cologne Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 17, 2023, 1:00-2:00 p.m.
Category
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LearningTranscript
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00:36 The Kunstmesse is not just a market for art, but also a market for information and knowledge.
00:44 That's why we are already in the middle of the topic.
00:47 Today, three other topics, which will come later, have been dedicated to the topic of art in times of overproduction.
01:03 That's a bit of a steep thesis at first, but when you go to the fair, you get the feeling that there is a lot of art.
01:13 Maybe even too much art. And behind the art, of course, is much more.
01:19 Behind it is knowledge, there is material that needs to be managed.
01:24 There are also a lot of data today.
01:29 And with the topic of data, we are already in the middle of our first talk.
01:36 Because data and the preservation of values and knowledge is of course also a priority of the archive.
01:45 And I'm happy to be here.
01:47 Now, first of all, I would like to welcome Nadine Oberste-Hettbläck from ZADig in Cologne.
01:52 ZADig is a, how should I say, always an art city for the DNA of Cologne,
02:00 because the Kunstmarkt was founded here and ZADig deals with the preservation of knowledge about this Kunstmarkt.
02:12 And I thought, Nadine, maybe if you want to say two or three more sentences,
02:16 or would you like to let the film speak for you, which you brought with you?
02:21 Yes, maybe I'll say something else. First of all, thank you for the invitation.
02:24 I'm happy that we can talk about this super important and exciting topic today.
02:28 And we actually brought a film that has just been finished.
02:32 So it will be shown for the first time today.
02:35 And that's a little image film that we produced to communicate what we're doing.
02:40 Because when you hear ZADig, that's just the abbreviation for Zentralarchiv,
02:44 for German and International Art Market Research, you're already half asleep.
02:49 And that's why we thought we'd have to transport what we're doing in a different way.
02:54 And I think this film can do that quite well.
02:56 And that's why it might be a possibility if we watch it together.
03:00 Exactly. Film on!
03:17 ZADig is the place for art market documentation, research and communication.
03:21 We are both in the true sense of the word and also meaningful.
03:25 We are more than an archive.
03:27 As a scientific institute of the University of Cologne,
03:30 we are a competence center for art market research.
03:33 The archive collections of galleries, auction houses,
03:37 art critics, art collectors, curators,
03:45 are the core of all our activities.
03:48 The nucleus, the pivot point.
03:51 With and through them, we can present all the achievements of the art market actors
03:55 in a critically reflective way in art history.
04:00 We can make the visions of the past fruitful for the present and future.
04:07 In ZADig, archive collections are located on over 2,500 shelves.
04:13 Selected collections can be viewed in our database via online search.
04:19 Other archive collections can be viewed on request in ZADig on site.
04:26 The archival release with all the relevant work steps is one side of our work, the basis.
04:33 To make research and research possible in ZADig,
04:37 the archives are systematized, recorded in the database,
04:42 digitized and converted for long-term archiving.
04:46 At the same time, we maintain the legal interests in relation to the archives.
04:52 Through subsidies, it is possible for us to strengthen some archives,
04:57 for example in the third-party project for the auction houses Haus Wedell and Nollte.
05:02 Here, relevant data from the sources for the auctions is processed for the provenance research.
05:09 At the same time, ZADig is understood as a teaching laboratory.
05:13 In our rooms, the students work with archival material,
05:17 train source knowledge for art and develop practical projects
05:22 such as documentary exhibitions.
05:27 ZADig works as a research archive, by providing its own projects and initial research.
05:37 As a cultural institution, the conveyance and visibility of our archival material
05:42 and the stories behind it are very important to us.
05:48 Therefore, ZADig organizes its own exhibitions and is the publisher of the publication series "Sediment".
05:57 In the scientific blocs of ZADig,
06:00 the articles of the knowledge conveyance on research topics
06:03 should be taken into account, processed and conveyed.
06:09 They serve as platforms for the exchange of information
06:12 and are used as sustainable media for publication.
06:16 For example, the project "Women in the Art Arcet".
06:23 Lectures, podium discussions, talks or symposia
06:26 complement the scientific work of ZADig in a communicative format,
06:31 which actively promotes direct dialogue with the public
06:35 and networking with institutions and scientists.
06:42 Initiatives such as the artistic research project of the ZOO collective
06:46 bring back historical performances from our archives.
06:53 In addition, we internationally donate exhibits to museums and institutions
06:59 to contextualize their exhibitions.
07:08 You want to know why certain artists became famous and others didn't?
07:13 How the actors in the art market collaborated?
07:17 In what context art could even arise?
07:20 And how the provenance of works can be replicated?
07:24 Then you are right with us, because we have the contexts for art.
07:30 [Music]
07:33 Thank you very much.
07:44 That was a good, full swing introduction with the music.
07:48 When you look at it like that, you get an idea
07:53 of the masses of information, objects, and archives that you protect.
08:02 It is certainly an expansive size.
08:05 It is becoming more and more, naturally.
08:08 It will probably be very difficult to make a certain selection.
08:13 But how is the whole huge effort?
08:16 In what context is it actually for use?
08:19 I imagine that maybe ten students come by every month.
08:24 There are these huge mountains and ten boxes are opened.
08:29 Does that always stand in relation to what it means
08:33 to have a representative overview of these archived objects, objects, books, etc.?
08:42 How can people be won over and attracted to use these objects?
08:50 Yes, indeed. We have a large number of objects, over 200.
08:54 Not all of them are stored in our database.
08:57 That would be my wish, but unfortunately it is not the case.
09:00 We proceed in succession, trying to open them piece by piece.
09:04 But the interest is really very great.
09:06 We have over 200 researchers on site a year.
09:09 These are not the students, who come to us as part of teaching events.
09:15 These are actually first and foremost researches on provenance.
09:19 But these are also people who write catalogue resumes for artists.
09:24 These are curators who organize exhibitions.
09:29 And this is very broadly distributed.
09:32 You cannot say that a collection is not being asked for.
09:35 We are very different, but you can say that we have highlight collections.
09:39 That is why we have named the project "Haus Videl und Neute"
09:43 because it is extremely sought after for provenance research.
09:47 You have to remember that we have put 342,000 auctioneers into the database.
09:52 Now you can read about each auctioneer.
09:55 Who was the buyer? Who was the supplier?
09:58 What was the call price? What was the supply price?
10:00 All these data.
10:02 But if I say that you can read about it, it is not available online.
10:07 We also have to take into account data protection.
10:10 This is very complex.
10:12 We always get the approval of the affected person before we give the data out.
10:17 But this is used very regularly.
10:19 We always proceed in the following way.
10:21 When the collections come to us, it gets a bit dry.
10:24 Then a delivery protocol is made, so that you can determine what we get in the end.
10:28 In the next step, we have to systematize.
10:32 The keyword was "mass".
10:35 For us, the keyword "archival value" always counts.
10:38 Is something archival? Does something have to be preserved?
10:41 Or can it be thrown away?
10:43 In the archival language, you say "to cash".
10:45 It sounds a bit nicer than "to throw away".
10:47 Then we decide when we look through these collections,
10:52 what we store and what we don't store.
10:54 The decision is very simple.
10:56 We received invitation cards from a gallery.
10:58 They were so generous and gave us 100 pieces of each invitation card.
11:02 Then we say "thank you", but we don't have space for it.
11:05 We keep three copies of the invitation card at most.
11:09 Except there are annotations, an artist has signed on it or made a small drawing.
11:14 But otherwise three copies.
11:16 We are very strict about this.
11:18 We have to say that we only have a limited space.
11:21 We want to keep the archival material as compact as possible.
11:26 When you look at it, you almost have the feeling that there is a trend towards archiving.
11:34 Artists are increasingly working as researchers, also with archival aesthetics.
11:40 Peter Piller is an example.
11:44 If that's the case, how do you meet this selection?
11:48 I would be interested in who actually meets them.
11:51 There are cases, for example, you have to see 30 years later,
11:56 that you have caught too few women.
11:59 As it is now, where so much is being collected.
12:04 Do you make this decision alone in the lonely room?
12:08 What are your criteria?
12:11 I am the ruler of the archive.
12:13 No, I don't meet alone.
12:15 What does that mean? Unfortunately, I am happy, I am grateful that I don't have to meet.
12:18 It's actually a multistep process.
12:21 First of all, we get the archive stock as a gift.
12:24 That means the first selection has already been made before the material comes to us.
12:29 Namely, what is handed down to us.
12:31 We get all the archive stock as a gift.
12:33 That's why we talk about donors who give us their archives.
12:37 The gallerists, for example.
12:40 And they decide what they want to give to the Zadig.
12:43 We are committed to giving them their documentation, their work, as extensively as possible.
12:50 Because that is very valuable to us.
12:52 So a selection has already been made.
12:54 When the material arrives with us,
12:56 then of course it is also a conversation with the donors.
12:59 We say we have a list online.
13:01 If you want, you can look at it on our website.
13:03 What do we collect and what do we not collect?
13:06 For example, we don't collect library stock.
13:08 We pass that on to cooperative libraries.
13:11 The books are simply better stored there.
13:14 We collect artist correspondence.
13:17 We collect business documents, like invoices.
13:20 We collect guest books.
13:22 Documentary photos are very important to us.
13:25 We have a lot of photographers, because that makes the past come alive again.
13:30 Our exhibition, which is down the aisle here, is a warm invitation.
13:34 Without the photos, you would go through there and say,
13:37 "Oh, is this all dry and boring?"
13:39 Because there are letters and so on.
13:41 You have to read a lot, flat goods.
13:43 But through the photos, which are big,
13:45 you have the feeling of diving back into the past.
13:48 And that's why we have a list of what we collect.
13:51 And accordingly, we collect the material.
13:54 We have Susan Geiermann.
13:56 This is our colleague who is responsible for archive maintenance.
13:59 She collects the material, sometimes also supports it with help.
14:03 And then we discuss it.
14:05 We also talk to the donors again.
14:07 "The convolut doesn't fit us that well."
14:10 Or, for example, we sometimes get things that are simply too private.
14:14 Someone gave us a folder, and there are love letters in between.
14:18 And then you have to think about whether this is the right place
14:22 or whether we might even give it back.
14:24 Then we say, "Don't you want to have it back? It's very private."
14:28 Some people say, "No, no, it's mine. It stays with you."
14:32 And some people say, "Oh, yes."
14:34 Then they take it back.
14:36 It's a very dialogical process.
14:38 But it's exactly what you said.
14:41 You always have to keep in mind,
14:43 what can the research interest be in 100 years?
14:46 Because nowadays we might say,
14:48 "This material is not relevant."
14:52 But you might rate it differently in 100 years.
14:56 That's why we tend to do that.
14:58 We have the luxury of saying,
15:00 "We'd rather store a little more,
15:03 so that we don't have to regret later
15:07 that we didn't keep something."
15:10 So, based on the fact that there is something like a trend towards archiving,
15:16 which is being driven by the art industry,
15:19 and where you sometimes have the feeling
15:21 that we might be a little afraid of losing touch with our past,
15:25 because we are moving into the future, into new technologies, at a great pace.
15:31 You, as a wonderful archivist, as the publisher of the project,
15:36 I have to read it out,
15:38 "Café Deutschland" of the Städel Museum,
15:40 have been looking after, initiating, I believe,
15:43 and making use of something that has been heard a lot lately,
15:48 namely the oral history,
15:50 that is, to record original statements by contemporary witnesses
15:55 as long as they still exist.
15:58 Maybe you want to say something about your work,
16:01 or should we play the film first?
16:03 Maybe the film first.
16:04 Okay.
16:05 This is the YouTube video.
16:08 No words.
16:11 I'll sing nothing.
16:14 I'm so fed up with the fucking art market.
16:16 For a better future,
16:20 we build our home on our hearts.
16:26 You have to imagine the time.
16:28 It was a different world,
16:29 and it was very easy to provoke with it back then.
16:32 So in 1969 I founded my first women's group.
16:38 That was still at the Academy.
16:40 I don't know, before Elvis Presley, without Bodyguard.
16:47 You've had situations like that a lot.
16:50 We were sitting on a huge bed.
16:54 Joko and John, Kate.
16:56 And we talked for a long time about Leni Riefenstahl and the Olympics,
17:00 about Fluxus and everything.
17:02 Yes, that was a great encounter.
17:04 What we had dreamed of in the 1970s,
17:11 has become a reality today.
17:13 Nobody knew that it would become a world star.
17:20 The art market is a world that is not yet a world.
17:23 It's a world that is not yet a world.
17:25 Today, the market history of an artistic position
17:32 is the entrance to the general perception.
17:36 People don't look at the pictures anymore.
17:39 They only see the 20 million at the beginning.
17:41 That's a big, big misfortune.
17:43 Everyone made their own discoveries.
17:48 But not for everyone, but for themselves.
17:50 Explain a little bit about your work on this project.
18:05 What choice did you make of protagonists
18:09 that you then spoke to personally?
18:13 And how did this personal exchange take place
18:17 with the people you invited as witnesses?
18:22 The project was originally initiated by Max Hollein,
18:26 the then director at the Städel Museum,
18:28 who had actually tried to push for it for years
18:32 and could not find the money.
18:34 I was lucky that he had the pressure,
18:38 really personally, to realize this project.
18:41 We said, "Let's just start now."
18:43 I was allowed to do it then.
18:47 There was no basic concept in that sense.
18:52 We didn't know where to go with it.
18:55 Max Hollein just knew,
18:57 we have to speak to these protagonists
19:00 of the first art scene after 1945.
19:03 This includes collectors, artists,
19:06 gallery owners, museum people, journalists.
19:13 Everyone who belongs to the network of art,
19:17 who doesn't belong to it, or who we have spared,
19:21 were now the neighbors or the friends or the wives.
19:24 Because we really wanted to limit it to the actors.
19:30 And then the network basically came about on its own.
19:34 We started with the first one.
19:36 There was a small scene,
19:39 and you know who has to be there.
19:43 But then, through every interlocutor,
19:46 who mentioned someone else,
19:49 new people came along.
19:52 One example is Franz Dahlem and Heiner Friedrich.
19:57 Heiner Friedrich, as a gallery owner,
20:01 and later co-founder of the DIA Art Foundation in New York,
20:06 who became known for a great decade.
20:10 Today, Franz Dahlem is no longer a term.
20:13 But they were actually companions,
20:16 where you can't say that one or the other
20:19 had more or less influence.
20:22 They really shaped this art scene in Germany.
20:26 For example, Franz Dahlem brought the Krauser collection to Germany.
20:31 That was the basis of the MMK in Frankfurt.
20:34 Later, there was the collection
20:38 of the Weller owner in Darmstadt.
20:46 These are paths where individual people
20:49 really committed themselves to art.
20:52 Partly for the artists,
20:54 but also through such deals or trade from the USA.
20:58 Or simply through an artist from Italy or France,
21:02 who really supported or appreciated the people
21:07 who made them great.
21:10 We must not forget that this influence
21:14 or this network, for example in the documenta,
21:17 you could see that these gallery owners and museum owners
21:21 worked very closely together.
21:24 These influences were found everywhere.
21:28 In this respect, it was clear that we could not do a project
21:32 about artists or only about gallery owners.
21:35 It had to be a little more comprehensive.
21:38 Unlike other conversation or interview projects,
21:42 the goal was not to have as many people as possible
21:46 talk to something or create a collection in a short time.
21:50 It was really about shaping this network.
21:53 You have to imagine it like a big, round table.
21:57 That's why we didn't send 10 people,
22:00 who then talked to the various people.
22:03 I was the main person,
22:06 the interlocutor of these people.
22:09 I visited these people for three years
22:13 and talked to them for half an hour,
22:17 three hours, seven hours or even three days.
22:21 We were able to get involved in this situation.
22:26 I think that was the starting point.
22:30 We said we wanted to keep the material.
22:33 That was the right time.
22:36 You can see it in the portraits that are now collected.
22:40 Many people have already passed away
22:44 or many people are no longer able to talk to us
22:47 due to illness or so.
22:50 The selection you mentioned is of course very important.
22:53 We currently have 75 conversations on this website.
22:57 We have asked over 100 people.
23:01 It was like that back then.
23:03 One doesn't want to, the other is too ill.
23:06 There are many reasons.
23:08 It's not the selection that we made.
23:12 We tried to make it as complete as possible,
23:16 to ask everyone.
23:19 We also got rejections or talked to people
23:23 who didn't want to give the talk
23:26 because they didn't feel represented.
23:30 We tried to do it differently.
23:34 There is also a print publication about the project,
23:37 because you want to read these conversations.
23:40 The great thing about this digital version
23:43 is that you can connect people,
23:46 who also take part in the conversations.
23:49 I can go from Günter Uecker to Heinz Mack
23:53 and talk to Heinz Mack about what I discussed with him last week.
23:59 This conversation, which people may not be able to have today,
24:06 but at the same time it's important for me
24:10 to be a granddaughter generation of these people,
24:15 who brings very different questions
24:18 than this generation would ask themselves.
24:21 You can say that it's a great treasure
24:24 to be able to talk to all these people in your life.
24:28 That's a privilege.
24:31 For me it was great
24:34 that I was able to collect all these stories.
24:38 It was different for everyone,
24:41 easy or difficult, of course.
24:44 Not everyone wants to immerse themselves in the past.
24:47 But for the most people,
24:50 as soon as they realized that we didn't ask the typical questions,
24:54 which they have already told 300 times,
24:57 but maybe also about the preparation of these conversations.
25:00 We tried to use all the material that already exists,
25:03 especially conversations that these people have already had,
25:06 to scan beforehand,
25:09 so that we could actually confront the people as experts,
25:12 as experts of their own lives.
25:15 We tried not to bore them with any questions,
25:18 which they have already answered 30,000 times.
25:21 I think that was such a big gain,
25:24 because you can use the things that already existed,
25:27 and maybe also about this overproduction.
25:30 Everywhere everything is done a thousand times,
25:33 and that was a thorn in the eye of every exhibition catalogue.
25:36 That you thought, "Now we're writing again
25:39 what they've already done at 30 museums.
25:42 It takes time, it costs money, it doesn't bring new insights."
25:45 But when I tried to reproduce it,
25:48 old texts from old catalogues,
25:51 and to say, "Come on, let's take the text now."
25:54 It's also a tribute to the author.
25:57 That didn't work at all.
26:00 And the over-reliability,
26:03 and maybe also the critical discussion with these things,
26:06 that's so exotic at the museum,
26:09 that no one can deal with it.
26:12 And I was actually very grateful for that.
26:15 I always liked to do projects where I could start from scratch,
26:18 because that's difficult, of course, and can always fail.
26:21 But it's definitely not boring.
26:24 And you can somehow
26:27 continue to develop with this project.
26:30 Yes, you already had the keyword "museum".
26:33 Museum research is your topic,
26:36 Ms. Raimi, as head of the Berlin Institute for Museum Research.
26:39 I have to say it again,
26:42 so I don't make a mistake,
26:45 because I say it too much.
26:48 Institute for Museum Research, Berlin, sorry.
26:51 And maybe you can explain to us a little
26:54 what your work looks like as an institute
26:57 that researches museums,
27:00 researches institutions that research themselves.
27:03 And are you a partner of these museums
27:06 or are they your target objects?
27:09 Exactly, explain your work a little.
27:12 Both. I feel like you.
27:15 Until I explained what the Institute for Museum Research does,
27:18 my interlocutor usually goes to the bar
27:21 and gets himself a drink and never comes back.
27:24 And to avoid that, we tried to break down a bit
27:27 and make it a little more explainable
27:30 why it actually exists.
27:33 The institute was founded in 1979,
27:36 above all to do the overall statistics for the German museums.
27:39 That's not exactly the burner at a party,
27:42 when you say that you do the overall statistics for the German museums.
27:45 But it's important because the museums, of course,
27:48 try to get to know their visitors,
27:51 to ask how diversity is implemented,
27:54 what the management structure in the houses looks like,
27:57 gender issues, and so on and so forth.
28:00 We do that for all 7,000 museums in Germany.
28:03 And if we add the exhibition houses,
28:06 we are even at 7,500, so really a large number
28:09 of, so to speak, opponents we talk to.
28:12 In principle, we do research with and about museums.
28:15 We do research together with museums.
28:18 We must not forget that something like the Schirn,
28:21 the large houses, Städel and so on,
28:24 that's a minimal percentage of the houses in Germany.
28:27 They are a maximum of 5% as large as the well-known museums
28:30 that we always think of when we talk about museums.
28:33 Most of them are very, very small.
28:36 Some are medium-sized.
28:39 And overall, it's also about
28:42 developing strategies with these museums, for example.
28:45 How can we set up new formats?
28:48 How can we bring participation into the house?
28:51 How can organizational structures be changed?
28:54 So that's an important part of our work.
28:57 And the other thing is research via museums.
29:00 Yes, we take this bird's-eye view again
29:03 and look at how certain things have developed
29:06 over time, where there were breaks,
29:09 what is the difference between
29:12 before the war and after the war.
29:15 The museums in Germany have developed
29:18 very differently than, for example, in Latin America.
29:21 The Latin American museums have developed
29:24 much more bottom-up, were never elite
29:27 and live very differently to this day.
29:30 We also do many projects internationally.
29:33 So there's a wide range of things we do.
29:36 We also sometimes do exhibitions
29:39 when we are asked for advice,
29:42 because we all come from the museum.
29:45 So the colleagues at the institute are all practitioners.
29:48 And otherwise, we try to dig in a little
29:51 and see what could be things
29:54 that could be very, very important
29:57 for the museums in the next five years.
30:00 I think that includes emotions in the museum.
30:03 What do we represent?
30:06 How emotional can a visit to a museum be?
30:09 How do I pick people up or scare people off?
30:12 We do a lot of that.
30:15 We deal a lot with collecting
30:18 from the immaterial cultural heritage,
30:21 which is becoming more and more important,
30:24 which actually fits our topic very well today.
30:27 We look at how data collection, long-term archiving,
30:30 data structures that are brought onto the street.
30:33 We look at that.
30:36 Yes, a few things.
30:39 Emotions is one thing,
30:42 and the other is the coldness of technology
30:45 that was very important to all three of you.
30:48 You have already reported
30:51 what role digitization plays.
30:54 You said that you have seen it.
30:57 With these very flexible, modern possibilities
31:00 to produce a film and make recordings,
31:03 you probably couldn't imagine
31:06 all of this in terms of size.
31:09 How is everyday life with the technological possibilities?
31:12 Is it a burden or a challenge?
31:15 Can I start?
31:18 I think you have to be very well planned.
31:21 You have to be very well prepared.
31:24 I think you have to be very well planned.
31:27 We have a large team.
31:30 We have around 20 students
31:33 who are working with us in various projects.
31:36 Then it goes very pragmatically.
31:39 Do we have enough jobs? Do we have enough scanners?
31:42 Do we have enough of the current software?
31:45 That's the basis, so to speak.
31:48 You have to coordinate the whole thing very well
31:51 and do the technical work.
31:54 Digitize it, type it into the database.
31:57 Before that, there is this complex process.
32:00 We have already talked about the selection,
32:03 but also about systematizing it.
32:06 We don't get all the archives neatly sorted in Leitz folders,
32:09 chronologically or alphabetically.
32:12 There are also the archives that come to us in laundry bags.
32:15 Empty leaf collections.
32:18 We have to deal with other things.
32:21 It's just always put on top of each other.
32:24 Then we have to look at how we systematize it.
32:27 Then we can pass it on to the next step
32:30 to capture it and digitize it.
32:33 I would say that it is a lot of planning
32:36 and that the old way has to be coordinated very well.
32:39 The digital capture never replaces the actual object.
32:42 It has to be dragged around the world
32:45 for centuries.
32:48 In all its materiality, in its requirements,
32:51 in its preservation.
32:54 It's actually a parallel existence.
32:57 But that's why it's sometimes a bad business.
33:00 Something that hurts.
33:03 You just said the flat goods.
33:06 The flat goods are easy to open, but they are not.
33:09 It has to be well-sorted.
33:12 It has to be well-seen.
33:15 You want to make what has been mentioned in the conversations
33:18 in a network,
33:21 connect it in a crazy way.
33:24 Many data collection contexts
33:27 in the form of databases
33:30 or other disclosure systems
33:33 are made for the so-called flat goods.
33:36 It's sometimes very difficult
33:39 to have other things.
33:42 Art objects are left out.
33:45 Museums tick totally differently.
33:48 Things have to be clearly stated.
33:51 That's not a particularly sexy topic either.
33:54 But it really has to be done.
33:57 You have to have this thesauri,
34:00 otherwise I'll never find the things again.
34:03 Let's put it this way, there is always a bit of core work
34:06 that can come out of it.
34:09 Like Café Deutschland, which really connects
34:12 and takes such things into account
34:15 and can then be carried on.
34:18 I would even think the project further.
34:21 The Deutsche Digitale Bibliothek has a lot of objects.
34:24 This artist, Idealiter, would be so
34:27 that you think about it even further and link it.
34:30 From my point of view, that would be a holistic
34:33 approach to digitalization and recording on the Internet.
34:36 And then it gets exciting again when things like
34:39 "What cannot be recorded" come up.
34:42 "What did the performance look like?"
34:45 There is only the description.
34:48 There is old archive material, but it breaks down.
34:51 And then I have to make it visible again
34:54 so that this performance of current generations
34:57 can be recorded at all.
35:00 That's the question, how do I capture dance?
35:03 I think they have been trying to invent writing systems
35:06 for dances for ten years.
35:09 And they are always reinvented as if it doesn't really work.
35:12 Because the experience can never be reconstructed.
35:15 That means something is lost.
35:18 A lot has already been bound off by film.
35:21 But there is still a lot of research to do
35:24 to be really useful for everyone.
35:27 I would like to say something about that.
35:30 Because I find it super exciting, this topic of networking.
35:33 Or how can you connect the different institutions together?
35:36 For example, we have a part of Paul Mann's archive,
35:39 a great gallery owner in Cologne.
35:42 But the main part is in the Getty Research Institute in Los Angeles.
35:45 So we have archive stocks in two different places.
35:48 And they should ideally be brought together somehow.
35:51 Or somehow a common digital archive.
35:54 Or a common digital face or digital window of view.
35:57 As Udi Kaderser does very nicely with her archive for visual arts.
36:00 We want to talk to them now.
36:03 Because we have Rolf Bricke, also a gallery owner in Cologne,
36:06 who gave his permission to Berlin.
36:09 We have something too.
36:12 And somehow you have to bring it together again.
36:15 And I think the problem is often that you work with
36:18 different databases.
36:21 We now have a database that has been programmed for us.
36:24 Yes, that's nice. We can work with it.
36:27 We are also very satisfied with the database.
36:30 But the next archive works with a completely different database.
36:33 They are not necessarily compatible.
36:36 I think you have to look even more closely.
36:39 Not just in the German digital library,
36:42 where we export our metadata.
36:45 But somehow the stocks in their digital materiality.
36:48 In the sense of a scan of a letter.
36:51 It is different to evaluate,
36:54 than if I write "letter from", "from", "from" and so on.
36:57 How to manage to put it together.
37:00 I think that's very important.
37:03 And then we have a completely different topic.
37:06 These are the digital bonds.
37:09 What do we do with all the data that is coming now?
37:12 For example, they all write about WhatsApp chats.
37:15 This also happens in the art world.
37:18 Or via social media.
37:21 There are conversations that used to be conducted by letter.
37:24 Or then at some point by e-mail or fax.
37:27 We have a lot of thermo faxes that also have their problems.
37:30 But we have to think about
37:33 how we can secure this digital communication.
37:36 How can we possibly import it into our database?
37:39 To then also re-sign it.
37:42 And to make it accessible.
37:45 And to make it usable for research.
37:48 I think that's a big topic.
37:51 And we don't have a solution yet.
37:54 If you have an e-mail with us,
37:57 we get an e-mail as part of it.
38:00 Then it's a PDF that we create.
38:03 And we treat it like a dataset.
38:06 It's an e-mail, a dataset of our database.
38:09 We're a small house.
38:12 We don't have an expert who does hybrid surveys.
38:15 But I think more work needs to be done on that.
38:18 When you hear that,
38:21 it makes you a little dizzy.
38:24 What is fed and flowed into the house
38:27 every day or every month.
38:30 And I think that's what you said.
38:33 And you also spoke of the Städel.
38:36 There is a hierarchy of means
38:39 of the various institutions in Germany.
38:42 And if you look at it,
38:45 there are museums with a development history.
38:48 There are museums that are super rich
38:51 and have a great stock.
38:54 But the urban context has changed
38:57 and they no longer necessarily have these means.
39:00 And so sharing would be a necessary idea
39:03 on this level.
39:06 Maybe the question to you again.
39:09 You said what you look at.
39:12 That all sounded a bit like empirical survey.
39:15 But is there something like the idea
39:18 to develop guidelines for the museums?
39:21 For example, there are museums
39:24 that really do archive.
39:27 And then there are other museums that don't do that.
39:30 And they are very often dependent on the leaders
39:33 who are there for a few years and then move on.
39:36 And it may be that for several years
39:39 nothing is done for the archive.
39:42 So I see it as a great difficulty
39:45 that these tasks of the museums
39:48 are no longer so natural.
39:51 One would rather want to renovate the facade
39:54 and the other would rather want to make new purchases
39:57 and then there are some who really want to
40:00 work up the collection, want to complete it a bit,
40:03 want to create the archives.
40:06 So I was invited to my great frustration
40:09 after the departure in the Stedel to minimize
40:12 my meters of shelf archives.
40:15 But that's also because there might not be anyone
40:18 who is currently looking after this consciousness
40:21 or concept archive.
40:24 And of course that's difficult
40:27 when the staff changes
40:30 and the museum policy in the respective
40:33 or in the individual institutions
40:36 changes so much that sometimes things are destroyed
40:39 or thrown away.
40:42 We recently discussed this in the Berlin Gallery
40:45 at a specialist forum where you were present.
40:48 That's actually one of my biggest concerns
40:51 that the projects that are realized,
40:54 whether they are private or public funds,
40:57 but they are always funds that others
41:00 are no longer available for.
41:03 These are incredibly expensive stories
41:06 that this is not simply put to the files
41:09 because someone thinks we don't need it anymore
41:12 but that there is simply a security
41:15 that these things can survive a little longer.
41:18 Or even worse, that the digital outgrowths
41:21 of what has been worked on for a long time
41:24 are not maintained and then somehow two years later
41:27 the domain is no longer available
41:30 or someone has forgotten to continue paying the server.
41:33 So this sustainability of projects.
41:36 Or also mine.
41:39 This is an example from Café Deutschland.
41:42 There are images in these references
41:45 that are paid by VG Bildkunst.
41:48 That's a few thousand euros a year.
41:51 So actually compared to what it is, a joke.
41:54 But at the moment the management says
41:57 that the images are no longer available.
42:00 They were deleted from the server.
42:03 And of course that changes the project
42:06 and also the accessibility to this project.
42:09 We have made it so that it is not only for experts
42:12 but also for people who want to read about this time.
42:15 Who somehow get in there in a completely different way.
42:18 And maybe they don't know immediately
42:21 what the Block Boys looks like
42:24 or what a work by Liechtenstein looks like
42:27 that was in the Struer collection.
42:30 We can actually discuss this again later
42:33 with VG Bildkunst.
42:36 We just wanted to say that this is a missing topic.
42:39 I have two questions for you.
42:42 There are the guidelines of the German Museums Bundes,
42:45 which always gives out guidelines
42:48 and deals with how we can support the diversity of museums in Germany
42:51 with the work they do.
42:54 There is also a guideline on digitization and archiving.
42:57 But I think we're actually talking about something completely different.
43:00 I am a prehistoric woman, a cultural scientist.
43:03 I come from a different museum world.
43:06 It's just a completely different museum world.
43:09 The museum world that deals with everyday culture,
43:12 with the classic regional museums,
43:15 which used to be called the home museums.
43:18 I have a lot to do with ethnological museums, etc.
43:21 The museums that show contemporary art or modern art
43:24 or art museums in general
43:27 actually tick a little differently.
43:30 I think that's a very important point.
43:33 I think that the topic of research
43:36 hasn't played such a big role for a long time.
43:39 While as an archaeologist in a museum
43:42 I can only really put things on the shelf.
43:45 When I have researched the finding I have received myself,
43:48 then I know, okay, it's from the Latin period,
43:51 it's definitely younger than Bronze Age,
43:54 so I have to put it on the shelf.
43:57 But I don't know if it's a good idea
44:00 to put things on the shelf
44:03 when they are younger than Bronze Age.
44:06 That's a completely different requirement for work
44:09 and also makes a completely different awareness
44:12 for the collection, for the context of the collection
44:15 that I need, etc.
44:18 That's why I don't think you have such strong breaks
44:21 when the direction changes.
44:24 Someone else comes who is more interested in other things
44:27 and stays in the conversation
44:30 and continues the things that were there.
44:33 With the museums I work with,
44:36 and you asked earlier how close I am to the museums,
44:39 we are very, very close because we are part of the state museums in Berlin.
44:42 And we have incredibly different museums.
44:45 So from the Pergamon Museum to the new National Gallery
44:48 there is really a very broad spectrum.
44:51 And I would say within this spectrum
44:54 that my two colleagues from Hamburg Station
44:57 the first thing they said when they started
45:00 was that we have to put a lot of weight on research.
45:03 We have to do a lot more research.
45:06 In the last 20 years
45:09 not as much research has happened
45:12 as we would have liked.
45:15 And maybe that's also the long story.
45:18 Maybe that's exactly what I want to say.
45:21 The art museums are largely defined
45:24 by what great exhibitions they show.
45:27 And there are very few collectors or curators
45:30 who say, "Oh, I'd rather not do such a big exhibition.
45:33 I'll take care of the collection now."
45:36 So that's true, but it's not really in demand
45:39 because of course you would like to have the entrance at the art museum.
45:42 So that's the way it is now.
45:45 There are also great other museums
45:48 that have large flows of visitors.
45:51 But an exhibition, even at the Städel Museum of Contemporary Art
45:54 is very difficult compared to the modern one
45:57 because the modern one can always wait up
46:00 with such blockbusters and the manager totally sees that.
46:03 Whereas someone like Piero Manzoni
46:06 doesn't attract that many visitors, logically.
46:09 And this idea of a house ticket
46:12 or that you say, "Oh, we're doing two exhibitions at the same time."
46:15 And at the same time, one of them attracts visitors.
46:18 And you can do that too.
46:21 So these are strategies that I sometimes find incomprehensible.
46:24 And where I would like there to be a bigger ceiling
46:27 or a system of rules
46:30 where not everyone is okay to a certain extent,
46:33 but politics can change completely.
46:36 And depending on this focus,
46:39 it just varies so much.
46:42 And I mean, these archives,
46:45 they have exactly the opposite.
46:48 What's the point of all the data?
46:51 I've really had a completely different experience.
46:54 As you say, at the Kunstmuseum,
46:57 it's not our problem that we have too much digital
47:00 or too much material.
47:03 Or on the contrary, the problem is
47:06 that it's too poorly networked.
47:09 The communication is far too bad
47:12 because it's all about personal contacts.
47:15 You just have to say that very clearly.
47:18 There are no structures that you rely on.
47:21 It's often something personal.
47:24 And if the director has good connections
47:27 because of his past,
47:30 but doesn't put much value on research,
47:33 then you can build a great network with the people.
47:36 But then the incentive stays away.
47:39 And I think that would be very desirable,
47:42 that at least a basic structure,
47:45 that also applies to status protocols,
47:48 everything that would totally simplify it.
47:51 Unfortunately, especially where it comes to the interior,
47:54 the question of proportionality,
47:57 the means, the institutions,
48:00 museums have a very different approach
48:03 to the topic than we have seen before.
48:06 We have seen that, I think,
48:09 everyone has noticed that exchange,
48:12 cooperation, sharing of systems,
48:15 software, information is very important.
48:18 I also wanted to ask the audience
48:21 whether there are any urgent questions.
48:24 Otherwise, we have to go on with our
48:27 gallop through the day.
48:30 I don't want to scare you,
48:33 but I don't see a raised hand.
48:36 Of course, no one is voting anymore.
48:39 Then I say at this point,
48:42 although we would have definitely
48:45 been able to discuss the basics right now,
48:48 thank you all very much.
48:51 And I would like and would be happy
48:54 if at least the three of you
48:57 would stay in touch with your topics
49:00 and continue to be a beacon for this topic
49:03 of archiving, of obtaining knowledge, data, etc.
49:06 Because at some point there are of course
49:09 only missed opportunities, so to speak,
49:12 if you don't provide the means in time.
49:15 Thank you very much and we will continue
49:18 with our next round. Thank you.
49:21 [BLANK_AUDIO]