What’s wrong with the opposition? — activist Edna Aquino’s take | The Howie Severino Podcast
Drawing on her five decades as advocate and organizer, Edna Aquino talks about the Marcos comeback, the release of Leila de Lima, and what ails current social movements and human rights education.
She and Howie discuss how a traditional respect for women won’t stop many from voting for a misogynist. The former campaigner for Amnesty International assesses the prospects of justice for Filipino victims through the International Criminal Court.
She and Howie discuss how a traditional respect for women won’t stop many from voting for a misogynist. The former campaigner for Amnesty International assesses the prospects of justice for Filipino victims through the International Criminal Court.
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00:00:00 [Philippe Rizal speaking in Tagalog]
00:00:23 [Philippe Rizal speaking in Tagalog]
00:00:52 [Edna speaking in Tagalog]
00:01:01 [Philippe Rizal speaking in Tagalog]
00:01:03 The feeling is mutual.
00:01:05 But I want to open, Edna, with some good news.
00:01:09 Former Senator Laila Delima was in jail for seven years
00:01:15 and has been recently released.
00:01:19 She was our highest-profile political prisoner in modern times.
00:01:23 What does it say about our political environment today?
00:01:27 What was Senator Delima's reaction when she was released?
00:01:32 First of all, she was in jail for seven years.
00:01:36 It's a gross injustice, especially based on Trump Trump Trump charges.
00:01:45 We welcomed Senator Laila's release.
00:01:50 I think that's not the end of the process of justice.
00:01:55 Maybe what Senator Laila did was one of the most
00:02:00 dirty uses of the justice system of the government.
00:02:06 If you remember, she did something that was very scary and disgusting.
00:02:14 Not only did President Duterte, during his administration,
00:02:22 prioritize women's rights, but the Congress itself helped her.
00:02:30 And her colleagues in the Senate, who should have shown civility to their fellow senator.
00:02:41 For me, this is a long journey for Senator Laila.
00:02:48 As I said, we welcomed her because she should be released.
00:02:54 But I really hope that Senator Laila would pursue her case against the government
00:03:01 and really put on record that what they did to her should not happen to anyone.
00:03:08 The president will set that, even if he says that she was released.
00:03:12 Remember that the basis of her release is still very much, relatively tenuous.
00:03:19 The cases are not yet closed, the witnesses are still retracting.
00:03:27 But there is no final verdict that she is innocent of the Trump charges she was charged with.
00:03:35 You're right, I should have prefaced my question by saying she's out on bail.
00:03:39 The case is not yet final. In fact, theoretically, she can still go back to prison.
00:03:44 Yes. And I'm glad that even though she was treated like that,
00:03:51 if you see her statements, although she answers the questions of the media more delicately,
00:04:01 you can see that her determination to do what she did is there.
00:04:08 How she will do that in the current political climate,
00:04:12 where she is also being treated like a trophy by the BBM government
00:04:21 to show that there is a justice system in the Philippines that gives that kind of justness to cases like hers.
00:04:34 Before we leave the topic of Senator Delima, I want to know your thoughts about
00:04:43 the release of Senator Delima on parole. Is helping fuel this narrative that
00:04:50 Marcos Jr. is better and less autocratic than former President Duterte?
00:04:58 More respectful of rule of law and more respectful of human rights?
00:05:05 Well, because the administration we created is very vulgar when it comes to civility and decency.
00:05:18 The replacement for him is somehow good-smelling, relatively good-smelling.
00:05:25 His handling is effective, even more so than the presidential campaign.
00:05:30 Now, what I think of him, I think there are signs that he is not giving direct orders
00:05:44 on how the handling and treatment of police officers, for example, to the opposition.
00:05:51 He is very deliberate, he is not just a paper, he is a paper of enforcers.
00:05:58 But you can see that there are reports about EJKs.
00:06:02 EJKs related to drugs did not stop.
00:06:08 Then, there was a news about the disappearance of two activists.
00:06:17 We don't see it because maybe our media colleagues did not follow up on the events.
00:06:30 Maybe we are also being led to that kind of image that is being promoted about him.
00:06:40 Our main preoccupation now is about hunger, the poverty of our countrymen.
00:06:50 Then, the climate change itself, the climate change is a huge problem.
00:06:55 The disasters that are happening in the province are left and right.
00:07:00 For example, the recent floods in the summer did not reach Manila,
00:07:08 unless we see it on TV.
00:07:10 There are many events in different parts of the country that we are not paying attention to.
00:07:17 Maybe that is our challenge to our media colleagues,
00:07:22 that maybe they also need to look at their role in showing a broader perspective
00:07:32 about the real events in the country.
00:07:36 I think that the communication and handling of the government of BBM is important.
00:07:43 I think about his image, I have to give in to that.
00:07:48 Sometimes, I get carried away.
00:07:51 Okay, but you mentioned the presidential campaign.
00:07:55 You did not support him, you supported his main opponent, Lenny Robredo.
00:08:03 His opponents, those who campaigned against BBM, Marcus Jr.,
00:08:10 some people say that he is an existential threat.
00:08:14 It seemed to be like a life and death struggle during the campaign.
00:08:20 So when he won, how did you feel?
00:08:24 I was not surprised at all.
00:08:27 Because I waited for a long time for the resurgence, for the return of the Marcoses.
00:08:33 Since they first ran for local elections, then for the Senate,
00:08:39 their strategy for a comeback was gradually improved.
00:08:46 So I was not surprised, apart from of course, stories of their deep pockets for the election.
00:08:53 But I also want to point out that one of the things that helped BBM's campaign,
00:09:02 that he won, was that some of the opposition,
00:09:07 our narrative that stopped at his father's martial law,
00:09:14 that is not important, it does not point to those who are not our generation.
00:09:26 Imagine, it is a story of repression of martial law.
00:09:31 So whatever you say, that this really happened to us, martial law, it does not hide.
00:09:42 I think that is something that needs to be studied.
00:09:46 How can we tell the story of what happened to martial law,
00:09:50 and yet we do not stop at that narrative.
00:09:54 Because it is too far from the imagination of the following generations,
00:10:01 the younger generations.
00:10:03 In fact, even for our own generation, it is far from us.
00:10:10 If they were not directly involved in the political struggle of that time,
00:10:14 it is still far.
00:10:16 I am talking to my senior neighbors,
00:10:20 you do not stop the story of martial law from them.
00:10:25 And that is something to reflect upon.
00:10:29 I was surprised, actually what you are saying is true.
00:10:33 But maybe because I am in the silo of my social circles,
00:10:39 which are a bit woke,
00:10:41 they are very conscious of what is going on in society,
00:10:44 the politics and the history of our country.
00:10:48 So I thought that the saying "never again" of the activists,
00:10:53 I thought that really had an impact.
00:10:58 But most of the time, the media is reporting on our history of martial law.
00:11:06 We have monuments, we have bantayog,
00:11:10 there are movies that have been made,
00:11:13 there are books that have been published,
00:11:15 there are movements, there are social media accounts,
00:11:18 and Facebook pages about all of this.
00:11:21 And yet, you are saying now that it did not really seep down.
00:11:27 Of course, we know that now because of the comeback of the Marcoses.
00:11:32 But from your international experience,
00:11:35 other countries have gone through similar historical traumas,
00:11:40 they have gone through experiences that they do not want to repeat again,
00:11:44 and it has not been repeated.
00:11:47 Europe has gone through some terrible things.
00:11:50 What have other societies done that were more effective
00:11:55 than what has happened in the Philippines?
00:11:58 You said that we have collective trauma,
00:12:02 or do you think this trauma did not affect enough people?
00:12:06 By coincidence, I watched Miss Universe contest last week.
00:12:12 And the venue is El Salvador.
00:12:16 At that time, we were campaigning against human rights violations in Salvador.
00:12:24 When we were having our democratic space during the latter part of martial law here in the Philippines,
00:12:31 the events in El Salvador at that time were very grim.
00:12:39 The US government was more brutal and used contrasts.
00:12:48 They even imported mercenaries to commit human rights violations.
00:12:54 But look at El Salvador now, nothing happened.
00:12:58 It was a dark time at that time.
00:13:00 So I was thinking, why is there a comparison between El Salvador and the Philippines?
00:13:07 I can say that it is not just in the Philippines that this is happening.
00:13:13 In many parts of the Philippines, where the martial law was generated,
00:13:18 Nicaragua is one of them.
00:13:20 We were idolizing Ortega, who was the leader of the liberation movement in Nicaragua.
00:13:28 Later on, he turned out to be a dictator and even accused of violence against women.
00:13:36 He was his own stepdaughter.
00:13:39 Now, what about the other side? I think I'm looking at the example of Chile.
00:13:45 But why Chile? Because Pinochet's actions were very broad and the repression period of Pinochet in Chile was longer.
00:13:56 And I have to give credits to the activists in Chile.
00:14:01 They were very enduring.
00:14:04 So that is one thing that I see as a generation of Filipinas of that time,
00:14:09 those dark years of the 70s when several countries were under similar conditions of what you call then the low intensity conflicts in Latin America.
00:14:19 This was also done here in the Philippines.
00:14:22 So Chile would be something I can think of now.
00:14:28 I think there are several factors on why it was like that. The magnitude of the problem, the resilience of the opposition of the movement,
00:14:38 and they handled it well to the point that they were able to really successfully brought to power progressive politicians.
00:14:52 So that is one example I see. Maybe the reflection that should happen would be on the part of the opposition because we know what happened to the opposition here.
00:15:02 We had many episodes of fragmentation.
00:15:07 There were many ideological differences.
00:15:12 And you know, election after election, I would be one of those voices saying, "Unite! Let's unite!"
00:15:21 Yet it was landing on deaf ears.
00:15:24 So during those elections, I was one of those who would call, "Can we sit down and unite?"
00:15:31 So there was that little window during Lenny's time where we somehow united, and yet there were still many distresses among each other.
00:15:44 I think that is one of the things we should study well, our own movement of change here in the Philippines.
00:15:52 I have nothing to hold on to that I can say, "I'm inspired and I will build my name."
00:15:59 Because none of the political movements here right now really inspire me.
00:16:07 That is one of my problems.
00:16:12 I think I'm not the only one who is like that.
00:16:14 There were many people during the time of Marcial Law, during the time of Marcos,
00:16:20 a position that they would rather not be identified with any political groupings
00:16:27 because when you join, you are already labeled that you embrace the full agenda of a particular force.
00:16:38 You are already a part of that, you don't have the space to expand yourself, your connection.
00:16:43 So that's the problem of the movement here.
00:16:46 Something to really think about because I think there is still a lack of reflection.
00:16:50 Whichever political forces these are, there is still a lack of reflection, a lack of deep study of what our weaknesses are.
00:17:03 So after the campaign of Lenny, I was looking for a way to join the discussion,
00:17:11 where did we lack and where did we make mistakes?
00:17:14 And I have joined one or two conversations, but the study is not deep.
00:17:22 That's what happened during the previous local elections, the senators were all defeated.
00:17:28 The study is not deep. So that's one of the challenges I can say, and also a source of disappointments on my part.
00:17:40 So on the one hand, those in the opposition should be accountable for its own weaknesses and failings.
00:17:52 But there is also a perspective that a lot of this weakness is a result of the red tagging that you mentioned.
00:17:59 There are so many people who are afraid of being red tagged.
00:18:03 So it's been very difficult to organize, to do this kind of reflection, at least as a group.
00:18:10 With a few moves, you will be red tagged and then you'll be afraid for your family.
00:18:14 So it's created this self-censorship, this chilling effect, etc.
00:18:20 So in a way, would you say that the red tagging, regardless of how wrong it is, has been effective?
00:18:29 Well, first of all, Howie, the red tagging is not a new phenomenon under Duterte.
00:18:35 It's always been there.
00:18:37 When I was arrested and eventually detained under Cory Aquino's administration, I was a case of having been red tagged.
00:18:49 So for me, it's not new.
00:18:51 And I think that the progressive movements are resilient enough that we could overcome these challenges such as red tagging.
00:19:05 I just think that the problem is how to make the red tagging more visible, such that you can give a connection to the repression of this kind of behavior in the reality of ordinary people on the streets.
00:19:25 For example, I'll give you an example.
00:19:28 During the pandemic, I was involved in a project on human rights where I surveyed the attitudes of people on human rights.
00:19:42 And the objective of this was to create communication projects that will bring human rights closer to home.
00:19:54 Because everyone is affected by the pandemic.
00:19:56 So it was very revealing to me that when the respondents were asked about what they think of human rights,
00:20:06 almost unanimously, the answers we got in these cuts across different class backgrounds of respondents,
00:20:18 was that human rights was framed by the respondents as something out there.
00:20:25 It's a legal thing. It's something for the courts to address.
00:20:30 Human rights are far from their reality.
00:20:35 Meanwhile, their reality during the pandemic is a question of human rights already.
00:20:42 Inequitable distribution of aid during the pandemic.
00:20:47 They don't see it as human rights, they don't see it as a responsibility of the government,
00:20:53 or more like a responsibility of their fellow citizens.
00:20:58 We asked them about the question of what they think of the protesters,
00:21:04 because the protests of some progressive forces during the pandemic,
00:21:11 almost unanimously, the answer was that they can't be helped, they are being disturbed.
00:21:17 So for me as an activist, it was very humbling because all these decades that I've been involved in human rights activism,
00:21:26 I thought we have a dent in people's consciousness, but no.
00:21:31 That's how they see it.
00:21:34 I was humbled, but at the same time, it really posed deeper questions in me,
00:21:40 what is lacking in human rights activism and we can't reach those kinds of views of ordinary people in communities.
00:21:53 But of course, our study is limited, you can't say that's the case.
00:21:59 But at the same time, because we randomly chose respondents,
00:22:05 the results of our survey, our focus group discussion, had a weight.
00:22:15 What does that mean?
00:22:17 What we mentioned earlier, what reflection the opposition needs, the movements to change,
00:22:28 I think we really have to study, look deeper into how we communicate, how we relate with ordinary people on the streets.
00:22:39 We are really far from that.
00:22:43 I've heard of unfortunate stories during the election,
00:22:49 our friends from gated communities went to the depressed communities
00:22:56 and they didn't know how to handle their interaction with people in depressed communities.
00:23:05 They brought aid, but the question is,
00:23:09 is there a breakthrough in the invisible wall between them and the people in those communities?
00:23:18 Because the class wasn't ready to go to the depressed communities,
00:23:24 the people in the depressed communities weren't ready to go to our bourgeois friends and to be with them.
00:23:34 So, that journey, that long journey that we need to go through,
00:23:44 for those who want to reach our fellow countrymen and to reach those communities,
00:23:54 they need to look at themselves before they go to those communities and reach out.
00:23:59 It's not easy to do that.
00:24:01 But the start of that is to have self-awareness that you have a power relationship that you need to overcome
00:24:11 and to be aware that you have that kind of power dynamics or power relationship with them.
00:24:17 You won't be able to break through with them and you won't be able to help change their perspective.
00:24:25 So, that's my reflection.
00:24:28 Yes, well, that's true. Obviously, there's that barrier.
00:24:33 But on the other side of it, my reflection during those times,
00:24:38 even my family members, my children's friends,
00:24:46 they go out to their communities to campaign for other communities.
00:24:52 I felt like, wow, I just saw this now.
00:24:56 Even from the gated community, they go out there, house to house.
00:25:00 I mean, the intention is there.
00:25:02 I'm not saying, you know, maybe it's just lacking in method or approach.
00:25:08 But the motivation to go out and interact with people and try to convince them about something good,
00:25:16 especially younger people, that was something new.
00:25:19 That was their first political experience.
00:25:21 And maybe it's the first time that they had a serious discussion with people who are not like them.
00:25:31 That's true. But the question is, how we did that,
00:25:35 we gave them space for that kind of opportunity to happen.
00:25:41 But how do you sustain that?
00:25:43 That's what's lacking because there's no movement that's joining them.
00:25:49 Because when they return after the election,
00:25:53 they will go to their respective communities, and if they join a group,
00:26:00 that's what will sustain your experience that is so beautiful.
00:26:06 But there's no solid movement.
00:26:09 That's what's lacking.
00:26:11 That will bring that.
00:26:14 So that it becomes a real solution to change.
00:26:17 And it's like the energy dissipates.
00:26:21 Where do you go?
00:26:23 For example, the new politicized youth, the ones who were politicized by those campaigns,
00:26:29 where do they go now if they want to continue their involvement?
00:26:33 I want to ask you now about the International Criminal Court.
00:26:37 You worked for Amnesty International in London,
00:26:41 which is one of the oldest international human rights groups.
00:26:45 And you've been quite skeptical about the ICC's potential for delivering justice to the Philippines
00:26:58 because it was after the era where the government advocated,
00:27:05 actually advocated killing people, and it happened.
00:27:09 That was a campaign promise that was kept by my former president, Duterte.
00:27:14 And now many people are crying for justice.
00:27:18 And the ICC is expecting to have a case.
00:27:23 What is your opinion on that?
00:27:27 Can we expect the International Criminal Court to give a case to the victims in the Philippines?
00:27:35 I don't know if what I'm describing is skeptical.
00:27:39 Maybe I'm just being realistic because I've seen the different cases that have been brought to the ICC
00:27:51 and it has been many years.
00:27:54 So that's one of my realities.
00:27:59 But my reality is the fact that you have countries like the US and China,
00:28:09 two big superpowers who have not signed up to the ICC, the Rome Statute of the ICC,
00:28:18 which means that there is a problem with the credibility, with the ability of the ICC to pursue this.
00:28:30 Third, the current global political context.
00:28:39 I am very disturbed by what is happening in Israel-Palestine.
00:28:45 And so far as its impact on the future of human rights.
00:28:52 Because Israel and Palestine, there were several attempts to bring that to the ICC
00:29:03 and the organizations that wanted to bring that to the ICC were not able to do so
00:29:13 because the lobby is very strong in favor of Israel.
00:29:17 And so far as its illegal occupation of Palestine.
00:29:23 So it means that there is a politics going on,
00:29:26 why there is a selective of the cases that can enter the ICC.
00:29:33 We cannot remove that.
00:29:35 There is a politics there.
00:29:38 More than the ICC, I am disturbed by what is happening in Israel-Palestine
00:29:43 because all the principles in the book of human rights are being violated.
00:29:52 And all the countries that you expect,
00:29:55 because they were the ones who led when the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was formed after World War II,
00:30:02 they are now the ones who are blocking Israel from bringing it to the court.
00:30:08 Even if they stop what is happening in Gaza.
00:30:12 That is why the biggest implication of that is the credibility of the human rights system
00:30:18 because these countries, the US, the UK, the European Union,
00:30:24 these are the countries that are pushing accountability of countries like the Philippines during Duterte's time.
00:30:32 These are the countries that are pushing for accountability
00:30:36 and yet they are now the ones on the front line that needs to answer to what is happening in Gaza.
00:30:44 So that is a heavy burden on the future of human rights.
00:30:51 The images that were made by the Jews during the Holocaust,
00:30:57 that is heavy.
00:30:59 What Israel is doing now in Gaza, the UDHR if you remember,
00:31:05 was framed because of what happened during the Holocaust.
00:31:11 Okay, you are right.
00:31:14 Israel is quite influential, especially since the US is a major ally of Israel.
00:31:21 So that could be one reason why Israel is able to do these things, at least in the past, with impunity.
00:31:29 Frankly, I have never seen this kind of public outcry against Israel in my life.
00:31:38 Of course, it is deserving because of what they are doing in Gaza.
00:31:43 But this outpouring of support for Palestine and against Israel worldwide is historic.
00:31:53 But going back to the Philippines and the ICC, I'm not sure if I see the parallel.
00:32:01 So you are saying that it's hard to make Israel accountable because it's backed by the US
00:32:09 which is very influential in making any country accountable.
00:32:13 So do you think that the influence of the Philippines is also like that
00:32:18 so that Duterte will not be accountable in the ICC?
00:32:22 It's the political context because the US now has found a very good ally out of the BBM government.
00:32:30 So I think that the focus now will be on the BBM government, whether it will pursue,
00:32:38 it will open the Philippines for investigation by the ICC prosecutor.
00:32:44 But the signal that's happening globally, in the global context, will play an important factor
00:32:52 in terms of how far these governments will push to influence the BBM government to open itself up.
00:33:07 And I think that's where the domestic politics and political dynamics between BBM and Duterte are at
00:33:21 and also the US and to a certain extent, the US-China conflict.
00:33:30 It's very complex. You can't see immediately the evidence that there is an influence in the ICC
00:33:38 but it is playing a role.
00:33:41 So you will see the signal of how far the BBM will push the pressure on it
00:33:51 regarding opening the country to investigation of Duterte's crimes against humanity.
00:33:58 Okay, well speaking of domestic politics and what the role of the Marcos government now is
00:34:05 when it comes to the ICC.
00:34:08 Senator Aimee Marcos has been saying that the release of Dilima from prison proves
00:34:17 that the Philippine judicial system is working and there's no need for the ICC.
00:34:23 The International Criminal Court does not need to meddle anymore with our affairs in the Philippines
00:34:30 because the ICC should enter the country if the state is failing in delivering justice for its own people.
00:34:37 But what is your opinion? Does the release of Dilima prove anything?
00:34:40 Does it help the Philippine government's case when it argues that there's no need for ICC?
00:34:47 We have rule of law here, we have justice in the Philippines.
00:34:51 I think those are just fancy points.
00:34:53 That's their first level of communication.
00:34:56 They will release it.
00:34:58 Dilima is a trophy for the BBM government in terms of the justice system is working.
00:35:07 And they will use it as a platform to point out the threat to the Dutertes
00:35:16 that BBM is already changing its mind about the ICC.
00:35:21 That's their first level of communication.
00:35:24 The deep look is how far the US will support BBM to push the ICC.
00:35:37 But at one point of leveraging there would be China.
00:35:41 So that's the game there.
00:35:44 But the US can still play an influential role in terms of delaying or hastening the ICC process in the Philippines.
00:35:56 That's how I look at it.
00:35:59 The global political dynamics will not be the same as the ICC.
00:36:06 Okay, I mentioned at the beginning that you worked for a long time with Amnesty International.
00:36:13 What is that? What is Amnesty International?
00:36:18 Amnesty International is an international human rights organization
00:36:23 that was established in the 1960s during the time of the repression in Portugal.
00:36:33 A group of British came together and started their letter writing to the dictatorship then in Portugal
00:36:41 for the release of the so-called what we know as prisoners of conscience.
00:36:47 Anyway, it is a membership-based organization unlike other international human rights organizations
00:36:56 like Human Rights Watch, for instance, which is a straightforward international NGO.
00:37:02 Amnesty International is a hybrid of being a movement because it has members in more than 100 countries.
00:37:09 But at the same time, it is an NGO because it has an international secretariat
00:37:15 with hundreds of staff from different parts of the world coming together and doing the research,
00:37:21 doing their global campaigning, strategizing, etc.
00:37:25 When I got my post in 1990, I was one of the two Filipinos in a staff of more than 400.
00:37:35 So, this is in the main headquarters in London.
00:37:39 The main headquarters is in London.
00:37:41 We were only two Filipinos then.
00:37:43 And I got to Amnesty, which is predominantly white, European, or British.
00:37:53 We were only a few from the third world or the south.
00:38:00 And I came at a very opportune time because that was the time when Amnesty International was pressured
00:38:08 to be more diverse, to be more grounded in those countries where it has done very well
00:38:17 in terms of researching and campaigning for human rights violations.
00:38:21 So, there was pressure in Amnesty that it should be more grounded in the countries where it is doing its investigation
00:38:31 so that Amnesty will really truly become a global movement.
00:38:34 So, that's what happened.
00:38:35 And so, I called it an opportunity because I came at the right time.
00:38:44 And so, I was one of those very vocal inside the organization that really pushed for diversity, multiculturalism, etc.
00:38:54 Issues that were so unknown to an organization that is predominantly European-centered, if you like.
00:39:02 And most of its funding came from European Union chapters, and then US and Canada.
00:39:10 So, me and several others coming from the south became an important voice inside the organization.
00:39:19 And I think that we made an impact in terms of expanding the perspective of the organization.
00:39:29 So, for a longest time, even until now, Amnesty International probably is emblematic of the criticisms about human rights
00:39:39 as being solely focused on civil political rights and not looking at socio-economic rights.
00:39:46 That's a big debate within the global human rights movement, including within Amnesty.
00:39:53 So, it made adjustments, especially when there was a big challenge in Asian countries like Singapore, Malaysia, and China
00:40:04 where the emphasis is not only on adequate civil political rights.
00:40:14 When it comes to universality and divisibility of rights, it should be looking at socio-economic rights.
00:40:21 And I think that criticism has validity and strength in human rights.
00:40:30 And I really believe that, that's what I'm saying, I have a critique on human rights.
00:40:35 Because I think, for a longest time, for many decades, the primacy of civil political rights
00:40:44 has contributed to the narrowed down of the public's understanding on what is actually human rights.
00:40:51 That's what I was saying earlier, when we asked people about human rights during the pandemic,
00:40:57 they thought it was legal, it was court, but they didn't see that human rights is also about security.
00:41:04 Because that's what became the paradigm for a longest time.
00:41:08 And I have to admit that the critics are saying that socio-economic rights should be given equal attention.
00:41:21 And why not? Because the United Nations was designed such that when it comes to socio-economic rights,
00:41:29 there is no clear mechanism to make governments accountable for un-socio-economic rights violations.
00:41:36 Unlike civil political rights. That's the problem.
00:41:39 That's the fundamental problem of our international human rights system.
00:41:45 I just want to add, because for a lot of people, maybe they're just hearing the explanation of Amnesty International.
00:41:53 I just want to add, because there are a lot of human rights organizations in the world,
00:41:57 but Amnesty International is probably the most prominent and influential.
00:42:02 It won the Nobel Prize in 1977.
00:42:06 It was a very white organization. You entered, you're a person of color, and you're a woman,
00:42:12 and you were advocating more inclusivity and diversity within this large and influential human rights organization.
00:42:22 One of your causes was not just economic rights, socio-economic rights, but gender rights, women's rights.
00:42:30 Especially this campaign against violence against women.
00:42:35 I want to ask you about this.
00:42:37 You helped put this on the international agenda, and it gained you some prominence and gave you influence as well.
00:42:50 In the Philippines, it's something I've always wondered about.
00:42:53 Our society, at least, has been constantly praised, or frequently praised for women's rights, gender equality.
00:43:02 I'm sure you see a lot of contradictions here.
00:43:04 For example, I looked it up before this interview in the latest Global Gender Gap Index Report, World Economic Forum.
00:43:16 The Philippines has long been deemed the most gender-equal country in Asia.
00:43:23 We're the most gender-equal country in the biggest continent in the world.
00:43:27 We're ranked 16th. We're actually improving from last year. We were 19th. We're now 16th.
00:43:35 But at the same time, you and I, and many other Filipinos, still see so much abuse of women, in particular, in more recent years.
00:43:47 You were also involved in this online movement with the hashtag #BabaeAko.
00:43:54 This hashtag #BabaeAko campaign against Duterte in particular, because it started when the presidential candidate Duterte in 2015-2016 was saying these misogynistic things and making jokes about rape.
00:44:10 So you started this along with other people, this #BabaeAko campaign online. It went viral, it had a hashtag.
00:44:18 This was actually counted in 2018 as among Time Magazine's most influential on the internet.
00:44:29 This #BabaeAko was lauded as among the most influential in the world by Time Magazine.
00:44:36 My question is, with this kind of impact, and with our society being known as respectful to women, we're high in the rankings of gender equality,
00:44:51 but Duterte's movement still won, thoroughly documented all of his statements against women publicly, which were denounced worldwide, shocked a lot of people.
00:45:10 And yet, he won the election and he retained his popularity despite not really toning down the sexist language.
00:45:24 He's still making jokes, kissing strange OFW women on the lips, that kind of notoriety.
00:45:33 And yet, he retained his popularity throughout his presidency.
00:45:40 How can that happen? Supposedly, we have this high respect for women traditionally.
00:45:49 It's not because of institutions or because of laws, but because of our culture.
00:45:54 It was pre-colonial, right? We were more gender equal or more gender inclusive than the colonizers.
00:46:03 And yet, we have this kind of politics. How can you explain this, Edna?
00:46:10 I take pride in what we've done when #BabaeAko was still up and running.
00:46:18 At the same time, personally, I was problematizing that we're only good in social media,
00:46:25 and that unless we transform our social media presence into a real movement, it will be a short-term success, if you like.
00:46:40 Because social media is a short-term memory. If you're popular today, you won't be tomorrow.
00:46:47 You rely on algorithms to sustain yourself, and you have to keep on feeding into that world that is too fast
00:47:00 and doesn't have a solid impact on people's lives.
00:47:08 If you remove social media, even if #BabaeAko didn't happen and we didn't do anything about it,
00:47:18 the reality is that we are still essentially a country of machismo.
00:47:23 Machismo patriarchy is still strong in the Philippines.
00:47:28 And then, when it comes to changing the relationship, it's a long process.
00:47:38 There needs to be a change in the way we think and look at things,
00:47:43 not just from the perspective of the adults, but also from the perspective of the women.
00:47:47 But I must say, if I were to compare it to our time when I was still young,
00:47:54 in fairness, a lot has changed in the attitude of young people when it comes to their rights as women.
00:48:04 What I see now is that the assertion of young women in their rights, control over their bodies,
00:48:13 and even their identities, gender identities, that's not what we had in our time.
00:48:18 So, there is progress, but the problem here is,
00:48:24 does it cascade to the communities that we really need to pay attention to?
00:48:30 Because most of the incidents of gender-based violence now are happening in poor and depressed communities,
00:48:38 not so much in the educated sectors of society.
00:48:46 So, it means that the gap is still strong, that's why these kinds of cases are happening.
00:48:53 There are still many.
00:48:55 And then, of course, there is the question of power again in the communities.
00:49:03 Whoever has access to justice, whoever knows how to defend themselves,
00:49:08 they have the chance to win.
00:49:13 But if you don't have that kind of power, your main preoccupation is where will you get the next meal.
00:49:20 Access to justice or even tapping on the justice system will be the last in your list of concerns
00:49:28 because you need to eat for the next few hours.
00:49:34 So, that's one of our problems.
00:49:37 There is a connection, the economic status of people, why these kinds of problems still happen,
00:49:50 like gender-based violence.
00:49:52 The statistics that you noted, year after year, the ranking of the Philippines is always high.
00:49:59 We are also one of the highest when it comes to, for example, educational attainment of women.
00:50:06 But that's the problem with the statistics because you will study if that education
00:50:18 translates in terms of improvement in their quality of life.
00:50:23 For example, in the past few years, I questioned those statistics because my question is
00:50:30 why are the number of women migrant workers still increasing?
00:50:37 Our migrant workers are highly educated college graduates who work as domestic workers abroad.
00:50:46 Why are they still working abroad?
00:50:48 But they are included in your statistics that the access to education is high.
00:50:53 So, there is a disconnect in those statistics and in reality because there is no opportunity for them here in the country.
00:51:04 They will go abroad because they need to pay to feed their families in the Philippines.
00:51:11 That's how simple the logic is.
00:51:16 I just want to go back to what you said that we're still predominantly a macho society where machismo is rare.
00:51:25 So, are you saying that our reputation and ranking has a myth or mythology?
00:51:35 That we're the most gender-equal society in Asia and we don't deserve,
00:51:42 we don't really deserve that reputation because, for example, we have a political leader who is very sexist
00:51:50 or misogynistic.
00:51:54 He is still popular and he is still loved by women.
00:51:57 So, I've been trying to understand this seeming contradiction.
00:52:04 But you're saying that the reality is that the statistics don't really reflect the real situation.
00:52:11 Yes, and Duterte's attitude is that it's a cultural problem and you and I work in the cultural sphere.
00:52:24 And we know that culture change is the most difficult, the most challenging aspect of social change to happen.
00:52:32 That's the reality. The achievements that were made about gender equality are not myths.
00:52:41 It's not a myth, but it's problematic.
00:52:44 And it shouldn't just end with looking at the numbers.
00:52:48 We need to study the story behind the numbers.
00:52:52 And that's what I said, let's just look at the story of migrant workers, of women.
00:52:59 Why are there more and more domestic workers coming out and taking risks in the countries where they will be abused?
00:53:09 Why are they still coming out?
00:53:11 Because of the economy, food, education, housing.
00:53:17 Those are their basic motivations.
00:53:20 Do they know that if a woman's breast is dirty, it will give them happiness?
00:53:27 That happiness is temporary, that there is a president who can make jokes about them as women?
00:53:33 That's not true. They're just tired.
00:53:36 That's the basic attitude.
00:53:38 And you have to change that.
00:53:41 And how do you change that? That cultural change is a long story.
00:53:46 Okay, I have a final question about gender.
00:53:49 In the 2022 presidential campaign, the gender of former Vice President Lenny Rubredo was often highlighted.
00:54:03 That she was the only woman in the field of men.
00:54:07 Sometimes, she was shown her shoes.
00:54:10 She was the only one wearing high heels among those who were sitting in the debates, etc.
00:54:16 Do you think her gender was an advantage or disadvantage to the Philippine electorate?
00:54:21 It depends.
00:54:23 I think she inspired many women in terms of her aura of being humble, being hardworking, being people-centered,
00:54:40 and her compassion to those who are far away.
00:54:44 Many women were inspired by that.
00:54:49 But on the other hand, I think, I'll go back to our survey during the pandemic.
00:54:56 We asked them, "What do you see as the president of the next election, 2022?"
00:55:06 The ranking came out high. She needs to be brave.
00:55:14 And not corrupt. Those two.
00:55:17 So, in terms of bravery, VP Lenny was a bit low-pointed.
00:55:23 Because what they were looking for was the bravery that Digong was showing during that time.
00:55:31 Lenny's points were not high.
00:55:37 If Sarah ran instead of BBM, Sarah would win because she would fit into that imagined bravery of a woman.
00:55:52 For me, I don't think her gender was an advantage in the election.
00:55:59 She didn't get a lot of votes.
00:56:01 Although, as I said, she inspired many.
00:56:04 But not enough to be able to, let's say, win the women's vote.
00:56:11 There was no women's vote that could have made her win.
00:56:17 And there could have been women who did not vote for her because she was a woman and thought that she was weak.
00:56:25 Until now, my cultural preference is like that.
00:56:29 You and I are old enough to remember the 1986 election, the snap election in February 1986.
00:56:36 And you also probably still remember the campaign ads of President Marco Sr. back then who kept highlighting the gender of his opponent, Cory Aquino.
00:56:52 - Like, "I'm just a woman." - Housewife.
00:56:55 Housewife. And then, oh, so...
00:56:58 Which also apparently did not work because Cory still won.
00:57:04 But obviously, there was a belief that that would turn off voters as far back as then, 1986.
00:57:13 But even then, many Filipino voters were willing to vote for a woman.
00:57:18 Of course, that was far from the only issue back then.
00:57:22 So maybe Cory won despite being a woman.
00:57:25 There were still people who turned off his gender.
00:57:28 But of course, there were probably much larger issues back then.
00:57:32 Yes. Yeah.
00:57:35 And the context back then, vis-a-vis gender and women, is different now.
00:57:42 There are more choices now.
00:57:45 There are more choices and more factors of education that people can choose
00:57:54 aside from the gender of a candidate.
00:57:57 I mentioned 1986. So I want to go back to those times.
00:58:01 You were an activist then. You've been an activist all your life.
00:58:05 Yeah. First quarter storm.
00:58:07 - So first quarter storm was 1970. - '70. Yeah.
00:58:11 - 1970. So you really started in 1970. - Yeah.
00:58:15 So '70s and all the way up to now.
00:58:17 So you've been through a lot, right?
00:58:21 Your husband, Alex, has been through a lot. He was also imprisoned.
00:58:26 I was surprised that even your mother was imprisoned.
00:58:31 Yeah. My mother, my sister, and Alex were deported.
00:58:35 Yeah. And you, all of you.
00:58:37 Is there anything you regret about being an activist?
00:58:42 Okay. Being an activist, no regrets.
00:58:46 But having not studied enough in terms of choices to be made,
00:58:54 yes, there were regrets.
00:58:57 I have to be honest.
00:58:59 At that time, we were forced to go underground because we were all under threat.
00:59:07 So, you know, there was no other position but the National Democratic Movement.
00:59:15 If you're part of the National Democratic Movement,
00:59:18 you believe in armed struggle, and later on, you were led towards being enthralled by the image of a socialist state,
00:59:36 Communist Party as the vanguard, and all of those things.
00:59:40 So at a very young age, with very limited exposure to other schools of thought,
00:59:47 that was probably my regret.
00:59:51 I did not study enough.
00:59:53 I did not have the opportunity to study enough and get exposed.
00:59:58 But activism per se, I think it's still the most important part of my life
01:00:06 that I don't just think about myself.
01:00:13 And my radar every day until now at age 71 is still about what's happening in society.
01:00:22 And I think it's a gift that I will always cherish.
01:00:29 Now you're always looking at doing something good for others.
01:00:36 And it aligns with my own foundation as a Christian when I was young.
01:00:42 Because I was brought up as a Baptist by my mom.
01:00:46 So that's my reflection.
01:00:49 But if I were to give advice, actually, my daughter asked me when she was in La Salle.
01:00:55 She was invited to join one of those youth organizations of militants.
01:01:01 So I told her, "Daughter, I will not stop you.
01:01:04 My advice to you is to continue reading.
01:01:08 Study history and take critical thinking as one of your foundations or your pursuit."
01:01:19 So my daughter followed. So until he passed away, because he died in 2022,
01:01:29 he became an independent, progressive person, progressive-minded person.
01:01:34 He brought up his daughters on those values that we taught him as his parents.
01:01:45 But he was very careful about being organizationally stuck without knowing what he would bring up.
01:01:56 But he was very courageous. And same with my two other children.
01:02:03 So their sensitivity to their surroundings are comparable to those of activists.
01:02:13 But their individuality was nurtured by them as independent persons with their own minds
01:02:26 and making choices on the basis of well-studied options.
01:02:32 That's what I can say. I should have done that.
01:02:37 But I didn't have the opportunity because I went to an underground school.
01:02:40 I even dropped out of college because of martial law.
01:02:43 So that's what I regret.
01:02:46 And then, of course, I regret that there were episodes in life where, you know,
01:02:55 sometimes activism made me make harsh judgments also in life.
01:03:04 I also went through that.
01:03:05 You see black and white in life because you're always in survival mode.
01:03:11 So you don't have a middle ground.
01:03:13 That's probably the cost of having to live through those dark years of martial law.
01:03:21 You really don't have choices. Every day is a survival mode.
01:03:29 So it was very difficult to be an activist in those days.
01:03:35 Thousands of people were jailed and killed.
01:03:38 But sometimes activist veterans of martial law will tell younger people,
01:03:45 "You're still lucky now. Martial law was very difficult during our time."
01:03:52 Is that true?
01:03:56 It depends on the degree of your involvement.
01:03:59 For example, if I compare the 15 years of Marcos martial law,
01:04:03 15 years, '72 to '86, to 15 years,
01:04:06 those latter years were more open.
01:04:10 The democratic space was bigger.
01:04:14 But comrades who stayed in the underground continued to live a difficult life.
01:04:20 They chose to be in the underground.
01:04:23 I'm one of those who chose to work above ground and build networks,
01:04:30 build organizations of artists, and that's where I first met you.
01:04:34 So when they say our times were more difficult,
01:04:36 what period of martial law are they talking about?
01:04:40 If I look at what's happening now,
01:04:42 activists have their own difficulties because there are so many enemies.
01:04:51 There's your enemy, disinformation, because of social media.
01:04:57 There's the problem of navigating the terrain of government institutions
01:05:08 where you have a premise that you can easily talk to because they're civil servants but very corrupt.
01:05:16 There's the constant stereotyping of you being loud in the community.
01:05:24 And of course, there's the issue of the red tag.
01:05:28 The situation is more complex now.
01:05:30 It's not easy, to be honest.
01:05:33 Seemingly, it's relaxed because you have an environment where you can move.
01:05:39 Supposedly, it's relaxed but it has its own complexities.
01:05:42 Our times were straightforward, especially the last five years.
01:05:50 From the time of the papal visit, when the elections were attempted,
01:05:58 the first time the elections were held, it was already a call.
01:06:02 You don't feel the martial law anymore,
01:06:04 except probably if you're in the countryside, waging or part of the NPA.
01:06:09 Those are the difficulties.
01:06:12 But if we're like those of us who move above ground,
01:06:15 we don't. We rally as concerned artists with the Philippines.
01:06:19 But it's straightforward. It's easy to read the environment of that time.
01:06:26 And we don't have that now.
01:06:28 It's more complex to do political analysis now.
01:06:34 What do you miss most about the past?
01:06:36 I miss most the rigor of the studies.
01:06:40 Because as an activist, in an organized way, I became a member of Underground.
01:06:47 We studied, no matter what.
01:06:50 Even if I said that I hope that the studies will be more extensive,
01:06:56 we didn't have much space.
01:07:01 We didn't have mobile phones. We didn't have social media.
01:07:05 So if you don't move, if you don't do your political task, you're studying.
01:07:11 I miss that. I miss the camaraderie.
01:07:14 You eat together. If you have food, you eat together.
01:07:20 I miss the camaraderie.
01:07:23 And I miss activism that has an immediate impact on what you want to do.
01:07:36 Just an example.
01:07:38 I was in Concerned Artists of the Philippines when Ninoy died.
01:07:42 I met him at Santo Domingo Church.
01:07:45 Lino said, "Let's make Concerned Artists of the Philippines."
01:07:49 The next day, Concerned Artists of the Philippines was already there.
01:07:52 It was fast. It was fast to move. It was fast to take action.
01:07:56 I miss those.
01:07:58 I miss those thousands and thousands of mobilizations when Ninoy was alive,
01:08:04 when Leanne Alejandro was alive,
01:08:08 with you marching miles and miles of marches.
01:08:15 I miss those.
01:08:17 Now, when there are mobilizations, until I can still do it,
01:08:25 you look for the usual familiar faces.
01:08:28 You don't know them anymore, so it's hard to strike a conversation.
01:08:32 So that's it.
01:08:33 Lately, I've stopped going to rallies because it's not for me anymore.
01:08:41 I prefer one-on-one conversations or meetings where you can really share your stories,
01:08:47 like what we're doing now.
01:08:48 What do you appreciate most about the present?
01:08:51 I really like the energy of the young people.
01:08:55 I feel like I'm being revived inside,
01:09:00 from their assertions that I see.
01:09:03 I was inspired by our creatives.
01:09:13 The production of our artworks is still very robust.
01:09:19 I was inspired by my friends in the media who are still working hard,
01:09:26 although I see the challenges.
01:09:30 I was inspired by the headways that are happening in the community.
01:09:38 Somehow, there are some who are doing their own thing.
01:09:43 I see the non-activists community organizers.
01:09:48 That's really inspiring because they're on their own.
01:09:52 I think they're the real social change actors.
01:09:57 On their own, without any support, they just leave.
01:10:02 I saw that very much during the Lenny Kiko campaign.
01:10:07 I saw that they're on their own, they're just moving.
01:10:16 The only regret is that it's not sustained, it's not inside.
01:10:21 Otherwise, globally, it's sad what's happening.
01:10:25 It's sad that Trump might have a comeback.
01:10:29 It's sad what's happening in the UK right now.
01:10:34 So many backsliding in the UK, a country that I love, second to the Philippines.
01:10:43 China is afraid of its aggression.
01:10:51 You're very involved in social media campaigns like Babae Ako,
01:11:01 and more recently, the one about seniors during COVID.
01:11:06 How did the digital landscape influence,
01:11:11 digital technology in general, in the promotion and protection of human rights?
01:11:18 It has a big influence insofar as dissemination of information,
01:11:24 but it's disappointing that it's only a small part of it.
01:11:30 So, speed of information is okay, but at the same time,
01:11:35 the other side of it is the power of disinformation.
01:11:40 Disinformation is a tough opponent.
01:11:42 And the hate culture of like-unlike, and it's not being read.
01:11:48 I don't believe in the algorithm that you have so many thousands of followers.
01:11:56 In our time, seniors during COVID, we have 35,000.
01:12:02 In Lennie, we have almost 15,000, 13,000 during the election.
01:12:08 It's funny, but I don't believe in it because when I say,
01:12:13 "Let's take this to the next level," the response is very small.
01:12:18 So, it's fast, but it's funny because when you're in the poll,
01:12:24 you post something that really, really interests them,
01:12:27 you get so many likes. It's funny.
01:12:30 But that's it. That's why the digital landscape has a limit.
01:12:35 It's really limited. It's not predictable.
01:12:39 How do you perceive the current state of human rights in the Philippines?
01:12:43 Where are we advanced compared to other countries, the rest of the world?
01:12:49 And where are we being caught?
01:12:52 I think our advances would be, there's a basic awareness in terms of rights.
01:13:02 You can't do this to me because it's prohibited, it's in the law.
01:13:08 There's that kind of awareness compared to, let's say, the time of Marcos.
01:13:15 But we achieved that over the decades. It didn't happen just like that.
01:13:21 There are certain sectors of society that you need to be careful of
01:13:26 because they are sensitized in terms of what is acceptable or not.
01:13:32 Even if they don't label that as a human rights problem,
01:13:38 they know, there's awareness.
01:13:40 For example, with seniors, you can't make a joke now
01:13:44 to the seniors who are walking because they know what ageism is.
01:13:48 And especially to persons with disabilities,
01:13:51 the higher level of awareness of PWDs who walk, they are happy.
01:13:58 So there are headways, I didn't avoid that, in terms of basic awareness of rights.
01:14:07 My problem, as I've been saying all along during this interview,
01:14:14 is that where human rights should matter, meaning to say,
01:14:21 our fellow countrymen in the region, we haven't been able to make
01:14:25 such an impact on their lives.
01:14:29 I think I can concretize this by saying, for example,
01:14:33 to senior citizens in poor and depressed communities,
01:14:36 senior citizens still see their rights as assistance,
01:14:41 how they can get help from their LGUs.
01:14:45 They are so far from talking about rights because they are not aware
01:14:51 that we have so many laws on senior citizens' rights.
01:14:55 So that's the big gap in talking about where rights matter,
01:15:01 we are not making an impact.
01:15:03 Because they are the ones who need rights more,
01:15:06 not me, who is educated, who has a comfortable life,
01:15:12 but I have a higher level of awareness about rights.
01:15:16 But until I can use that to make my fellow countrymen
01:15:23 and seniors understand that my awareness is useless,
01:15:29 we have to bridge that gap because otherwise,
01:15:33 we are the only ones who can understand, we cannot change society
01:15:37 because we are not able to reach where it is needed.
01:15:42 For me, it's that simple.
01:15:43 The vendors in the market, until now,
01:15:46 they are still dependent on the lenders.
01:15:50 My neighbors in the market, you think their market is good,
01:15:54 they buy a lot, but the money goes out,
01:15:57 the money is there, waiting for the collector to collect their debt.
01:16:02 It's sad because we have a lot of laws about usury,
01:16:08 but the vendors don't know that there are laws
01:16:11 that should protect them against usury.
01:16:14 So that's the problem.
01:16:18 We have a lot of achievements, but the ones who enjoy it are still woke,
01:16:24 not the ones who should really benefit.
01:16:29 And we have to do something about that.
01:16:31 Thank you for that challenge.
01:16:32 And that's a good point to end on, Edna.
01:16:34 Thank you for sharing your wisdom and memories.
01:16:38 Edna Aquino, human rights campaigner and activist for 50 years.
01:16:44 Thank you for your service to the economy.
01:16:47 Thank you for the opportunity.
01:16:49 Thank you very much.
01:16:51 Hi, I'm Howie Severino.
01:16:53 Check out the Howie Severino Podcast.
01:16:55 New episodes will stream every Thursday.
01:16:57 Listen for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and other platforms.
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