Benjamin Zephaniah Convinces Journalist to Return MBE Live on Air (2003)
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00:00 idea of why I write. I don't write to impress the Queen, I don't write to win awards and
00:05 to get OBEs and join an Empire's club.
00:07 He's made me think that I should seriously consider giving it back because his arguments
00:13 are so persuasive.
00:14 I want to criticise the government, the monarchy, myself. If I join this club of monarchy, this
00:21 club of empire, how can I criticise it?
00:24 Honestly, Benjamin, you've made me think and I think I'm going to go for this. I think
00:28 I might do a John Lennon and return the goods.
00:33 I'm joined by Benjamin Zefanayah who's in Barking in East London and with me in the
00:37 studio Lord John Taylor and Yasmin Alamai-Brown. Benjamin Zefanayah, you regard this as a big
00:44 thing and something you'd like to start a movement over or it's just one of those things?
00:50 It's just one of those things actually. I think that for somebody to offer me this Order
00:58 of the British Empire shows me that they haven't really read my work, they don't really know
01:02 what I stand for and they have no idea of why I write. I write to connect with my people.
01:08 I'm not in Barking now, I'm in East Ham and I'm in a bookshop full of people. These are
01:12 the people I write for. I don't write to impress the Queen, I don't write to win awards and
01:16 to get OBEs and join an Empire's club.
01:19 And is it more about empire or more about a government that's been to a war with which
01:23 you didn't agree with?
01:27 It's a bit of both things. I mean if we didn't have a war at the moment I would have still
01:30 rejected it. I would have still rejected it because it has the word 'empire' on it. We
01:35 can get rid of the empire and we can do something else, we can call it something else. I think
01:39 we should go to the streets of East London and Brixton, we should take people and say
01:43 who has made an impact on your life and get them to say who they want to be honoured.
01:48 We don't need Tony Blair, I've been knocking on Tony Blair's door for months now to get
01:52 him to have a conversation with me and he won't. I don't need him to tell me that I'm
01:57 a writer of any merit. In fact, in the last few months most of my work has been working
02:03 against this war, it's been working with prisoners who've been wrongfully imprisoned, it's been
02:07 working to get justice for my cousin Mikey Powell who's killed in a police station. You
02:11 know, he's given me an award for fighting for a classless society. It's much better
02:15 than my poetry.
02:16 Right, well now Yasmin Al-Abeir-Brown, there are a lot of sentiments there you might agree
02:20 with and I'm just wondering about Empire and of course you are a member of the British
02:24 Empire MBE.
02:27 Actually Benjamin has really created this turmoil for me and I thank him for it actually.
02:34 I went home last night after I read this piece and I thought, I felt enormously guilty, he's
02:39 made me think that I should seriously consider giving it back because his arguments are so
02:45 persuasive. Where he's wrong is that people like me have joined the establishment. I remain
02:51 a rampant Republican and absolutely opposed to almost everything Tony Blair is doing.
02:57 But he's made me think and by this weekend I'll make a decision about it. So, thank you.
03:03 Persuade her Benjamin.
03:06 Well I was just told a couple of minutes ago that Yasmin had an MBA and I almost fainted.
03:11 I really almost fainted. Yasmin you don't need it. Your work is good. Your work means
03:19 something to us and I'm sure people don't meet you in the street and go, wow, you've
03:24 got an MBE, this makes a difference to us.
03:26 Right, let me bring in Lord Taylor. I mean your honour in a sense is a working honour
03:32 but nevertheless, Empire, you can't be very happy to be beneath this yoke.
03:38 Well I'm a fan of Benjamin's. He's a brilliant writer. He's raised an important debate. But
03:43 in his article in the Guardian he talks about his obsession with the future and not the
03:47 past. We have to move on. We know the Empire in many ways was a bad thing for black people.
03:52 But in a way this award is for his excellence as a writer. You know future generations of
03:58 blacks and whites need to see that black people haven't...
04:00 But why must his excellence be celebrated with an Empire medal?
04:03 Well you can call it anything you want basically. It's not going to... Benjamin is bigger than
04:06 the name of the award. That's my opinion. What he's saying in effect is that by accepting
04:12 this award he would be diminished in some way. I don't think so. He'll continue to write
04:16 and to speak out and he should do that.
04:18 Benjamin Zephaniah?
04:20 Listen, I want to criticise left, right and centre. I want to criticise the government,
04:26 the monarchy, myself. If I join this club of monarchy, this club of Empire, how can
04:32 I criticise it? I mean it doesn't open doors for me.
04:35 I'll give you an example. Benjamin does some brilliant work...
04:37 It opens the wrong doors.
04:39 It does some brilliant work for the British Council, which is an establishment organisation.
04:43 The Queen is the patron. He criticises the British Council.
04:47 But the British Council is of course the British Council, not the British Empire presumably
04:50 Benjamin.
04:51 And let me tell you something else. I know I'm on Channel 4 and I'm going to talk about
04:56 the BBC. The BBC World Service is an organisation I really do respect. It used to be called
05:02 the Empire Service. But they realised that they had to have a different kind of relationship
05:06 with their audience. This Queen has to have a different kind of relationship with the
05:10 people of East Ham. She has to have a different kind of relationship with her subjects.
05:16 I agree with Benjamin. I think France has a system of honouring its citizens. We don't
05:23 need this old model. I think citizens should be honoured by this nation. And honestly,
05:30 Benjamin, you've made me think and I think I'm going to go for this. I think I might
05:34 do a John Lennon and return the goods.
05:38 There's a paradox here though because Benjamin has said he wants to have a dialogue with
05:41 Tony Blair. I think he's reduced his chances now of having that. You know, if you want
05:46 to change a structure, you get inside, you can't change them outside.
05:51 I've written Tony Blair letters, many letters over the last months. And if you think that
05:55 this is going to make Tony Blair say, I'm not talking to that guy anymore, it's not.
05:59 He may want to talk to you. He may want to talk to you. With all due respect, he may
06:04 want to talk to you because you may be part of his club. I don't know if you agree with
06:08 his politics and stuff like that.
06:10 All I'm saying, Benjamin, if you want to change a structure, you get involved with it from
06:15 inside. It's difficult to change the structure from outside. That's the problem.
06:18 Yes, Manuela by Brown?
06:20 I think you can still fight them. And I don't think you should bother talking to Tony Blair.
06:25 It never is worth it.
06:26 Would you stop talking?
06:27 No, but I think what you've said is so important. You've blown open something, a kind of conspiracy
06:33 and an abject cowardice on the part of people like myself. So, you know, it is an important
06:39 debate. The nation has changed. We need to represent who we are better. And to talk about
06:45 the empire takes us to a time which is absolutely unhealthy.
06:49 Benjamin Zephaniah, would you actually like to see people follow your example?
06:57 I would like to. Yes, of course, I would like to see people follow my example. I think the
07:01 OBE is unnecessary. My office is full of awards. They're awards that are given to me from people
07:07 from my local primary school and junior schools and people I meet in the streets. It's interesting.
07:14 I've been walking the streets of London today and people are congratulating me on something
07:18 that I haven't had. People are saying they woke up and they had parties for me because
07:23 I didn't take something. I mean, it's absolutely amazing. And I've actually been trying to
07:29 avoid the press because, you know what, I want to concentrate on my work. I write because
07:36 I feel a need to write, not because I want to impress.
07:39 Benjamin Zephaniah, Lord Taylor, Yasmin Alabai-Brown, thank you all three.
07:44 [Applause]
07:50 [BLANK_AUDIO]