Were Sunderland's tactics to blame for Newcastle United loss?
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00:30 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:46 We're back for our regular Monday podcast to review the weekend's game.
00:50 My name is Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer,
00:54 James Copley at the Sunderland Echo.
00:56 We're of course going to be looking back on Sunderland's 3-0 defeat against
01:00 Newcastle in the wartime derby on Saturday at the Stadium of Light.
01:05 And James, you've had a few days now to reflect on it, on what was on Saturday.
01:10 How do you kind of review the match now, kind of a few days on from the game?
01:15 >> I think very mixed feelings.
01:17 It was very nice to have the derbies back, the build up, all that sort of stuff.
01:22 And you sort of forget how much of an occasion it is in and around the ground,
01:25 watching the Newcastle fans turn up and
01:27 the banter between Sunderland fans and Newcastle.
01:30 It was good, I thought it was policed well.
01:32 I know there was a lot of concern about the bubble trip, about the 6,000 fans.
01:37 But from what I could tell, everything went down in terms of safety,
01:42 as it should have, which is good.
01:43 Because we all want a safe and good experience for both sets of fans.
01:46 So credit to the police on that, because I think I was one of a number of people
01:50 that voiced the doubts on that matter, and it seemed to go down well.
01:54 The game itself, I was disappointed with Sunderland, I think.
02:00 Obviously, that's caveated with the fact that Newcastle are former
02:07 Champions League side, top end Premier League team, battling for top four.
02:12 And Sunderland are a Championship side with a Championship squad,
02:14 albeit with some very, very good young players.
02:16 I think my disappointment lies in Sunderland's tactics, really.
02:20 I think if you cash your mind back to the Hull game, Hull away on Boxing Day,
02:24 Sunderland changed their style a little bit.
02:26 They sat off Hull, the midfield didn't break forward because they knew that they
02:30 would get picked off in midfield, and they didn't want to do that.
02:33 So they didn't play to Hull's hands, they didn't press high.
02:35 And they did set off a bit at times in the first half.
02:41 Whereas if you fast forward to the Newcastle game, I don't really feel like
02:46 Sunderland tried to alter the tactics from the most recent Championship games,
02:51 really. They put out the same side, same formation, and in midfield they were just
02:56 overrun a little bit. It was a real tough afternoon for Ecuador, Bellingham and
03:01 Neal, although I thought Neal did have a good game in parts.
03:04 But I felt like Sunderland needed to be compact, they needed two banks of four,
03:08 they needed to force Newcastle out wide. Newcastle had so much joy through the middle.
03:12 And listen, this is a very, very good Newcastle side, but it is possible to set up
03:16 and frustrate teams. Sunderland didn't do that.
03:19 I am a massive, massive PR Ecuador fan. I've defended him a lot, especially when he
03:24 first came to the club, and I will continue to defend him.
03:27 He's made a mistake and we shouldn't crucify him for the second goal.
03:30 But when that's your principles and you want a play out from the back,
03:37 absolutely fair enough, but I think you have to pick and choose your moments.
03:41 And that 30 seconds into the second half was not the moment and it really killed the game.
03:46 Newcastle may well have gone on to win it anyway.
03:48 But yeah, I think Michael Beale's tactics for me were disappointing.
03:52 I think Joe, you'll be able to speak a little bit about this as well,
03:54 but if you look at Middlesbrough Aston Villa in the FA Cup,
03:57 I thought Michael Carrick set up really well despite Middlesbrough losing that game.
04:00 They were compact, they've got a similar age squad to Sunderland.
04:05 Villa were on a similar level to Newcastle, but Middlesbrough really sat in,
04:08 ultimately lost the game.
04:10 But it was after Aston Villa made some pretty hefty changes
04:14 and Middlesbrough had chances in that game as well.
04:16 So I was disappointed because I thought it was a failure to recognise the magnitude
04:22 of what they were facing and adjust accordingly, which I think was a shame.
04:26 There was a few decent performances in there for Sunderland,
04:28 but yeah, it's a tough one to take if you're a Sunderland fan
04:32 because you don't like to lose to Newcastle 3-0,
04:34 but there are mitigating circumstances within that.
04:37 But all eyes are on the league now and I don't think this game was ever going to define
04:41 Sunderland's season, I think that's for sure.
04:44 I think the proof and the pudding of this ownership and the way Sunderland are doing things
04:49 is going to come in the form of a league.
04:52 Yeah, I think as you say, I don't think it was ever going to define Sunderland's season,
04:55 but I thought they were actually defending pretty well up until that first goal, really.
04:58 I thought 09 and Ballard were doing very well to contain Alexander Isak
05:03 in the first 35 minutes, I thought Ballard was actually playing excellently until the own goal
05:07 and then his head dropped a little bit and Sunderland lost that shape defensively.
05:12 And then obviously the goal right after half-time really killed it as a contest.
05:16 But you mentioned back to that whole game,
05:19 I think it just showed the quality and Sunderland just weren't able to get their key players
05:24 into the game, Jack Clarke in particular, I think that's a key battle between him and Trippier.
05:29 At the end of the game, we kind of identified who could get at Trippier,
05:33 who was an injury that before the game and he just wasn't able to do that.
05:36 And Trippier actually, it was quite obvious from quite early on when he was in the pitch
05:42 that he was kind of overlapping on the outside of Almiron and that could see at least a two-on-one.
05:47 It was quite difficult for him.
05:48 But I think, do you think it just showed kind of the step up in quality going from playing championship games every week
05:54 to deciding it was pretty much Newcastle's strongest team, wasn't it?
05:57 I mean, when you looked at the team sheet, probably only the only injured player that would have been involved.
06:02 I know they do have quite an increase, but it's Newcastle's strongest side.
06:06 I think it kind of showed, didn't it?
06:09 Yeah, I think there are positives to take from a Sunderland point of view,
06:12 although they are quite small and it's, say, somebody like Trey Hulme, for instance,
06:18 has looked really good for Sunderland in the championship this season.
06:21 He struggled up against Newcastle because they were overlapping, as you say,
06:24 Bominom, Alessi the same as well, Sunderland's left back on the day.
06:29 But, you know, that's the level these lads want to get to.
06:31 And I would back a few of them to get there as well, particularly Joe Bellingham,
06:35 Ekouar, Hulme and Dan Neal as well, are sort of three or four that I would say could make it to that level one day.
06:41 He was top of Bellingham as well, wasn't he?
06:43 Bellingham was kind of, he had to man Mark Bruno Guimaraes and that's a really tough job.
06:48 Yeah, absolutely.
06:50 But for those players, I think that's the standard they've got to get to.
06:55 And it's a massive learning curve, possibly even a little bit of a wake up call.
06:58 They've been progressing nicely and, you know, they've been getting applauded as well
07:02 when Sunderland win games and rightly so because they performed well.
07:05 But maybe it's a little bit of a reality check as well, in the sense that, you know,
07:08 there's still a lot of work to do and a long way to go.
07:12 And hopefully in the long run, it's sort of beneficial for them.
07:15 I remember Tony Mowbray last season saying that the games against Fulham,
07:20 the original tie in the replay gave them a lot of confidence that they could play football
07:25 and, you know, challenge teams in the Championship and they performed so well against Fulham,
07:31 who are a Premier League side, that perhaps they could do something in the Championship.
07:34 It gave them a lot of confidence.
07:36 You hope this doesn't ruin Sunderland's confidence, but you do hope that it's a little bit of a wake up call to say,
07:40 'Right, OK, that's the standard we need to get to'.
07:42 But I think with these young players that were mentioned as well, there's only so much they can do.
07:48 They are developing nicely and it's perhaps unfair to compare them even really to this Newcastle team,
07:54 where they're all very experienced pros that have cost a lot of money,
07:58 or the majority of Newcastle's squad were, and they were fielding a 17-year-old as well.
08:03 But I think ultimately Michael Beale needs a bit of help because Alex Neal, Tony Mowbray and Michael Beale
08:10 have all said during their tenure as Sunderland head coach that they've looked behind them,
08:15 or words to this effect, that they've looked behind them and they've thought, 'Well, we can't change the game'.
08:20 And I think that is a recurring theme and fans can see it.
08:24 Sunderland lack a bit of experience, they lack an out-and-out goalscorer and they lack depth to change games.
08:32 You know, I'm not saying that some of those lads on the bench won't come good eventually, because I'm sure they will.
08:36 But I think it's very clear for all to see that that's what Sunderland's like.
08:40 And thankfully, it's the January transfer window, so it's got a chance of being rectified.
08:44 But the flip side to that is, you know, will Sunderland double down again like they did in the summer and bring in more inexperienced,
08:51 yes, exciting young players who have the potential to progress, but, you know, is it what Sunderland need now?
08:57 I think possibly they might need to address what's happening with the squad and the squad deficiencies now rather than later.
09:03 I'm all for investing in youth. Obviously, some of the best stories at Sunderland over the past couple of years have been the youth players that have come in
09:11 or, you know, players that we've helped mature and bring on like Jack Clarke, Hugh and Patrick Roberts.
09:16 I know he's 26 now, but probably 24-ish when he came to the club.
09:20 And, you know, Dennis Serkin, those types of players.
09:23 It's been great to watch them grow, but I think you've got to give these lads a little bit of help now and,
09:30 yeah, add some real metal and experience and a bit of grittiness, a bit of nastiness to that Sunderland side, I think.
09:37 And don't just take my word for it as well, because, you know, you have Roy Keane on ITV Pundit Reduty saying the same,
09:44 the likes of Tony Cascarino on Talk Sports saying that Sunderland lacked experience and a bit of metal.
09:51 And I think an experienced head does possibly manage that game a little bit better.
09:55 Maybe even a more experienced head coach, dare I say, might manage that game a little bit better.
09:59 I don't know if that's too harsh on Michael Beale or not.
10:03 But, yeah, it was an interesting day for a number of reasons.
10:06 What I will say is the atmosphere, I thought, in the Stadium of Light was absolutely brilliant.
10:12 I know there was a lot said before the game about Newcastle United getting the North Stand, and we can talk and debate about that.
10:18 And what happened to the Black Cats bar is, you know, an absolute disgrace.
10:21 But I actually thought the atmosphere was aided in the stadium from having some fans in the lower bowl.
10:27 You know, you probably don't want 6,000 Newcastle fans in every game, but I thought having fans in the North Stand, it did help the atmosphere.
10:37 Although in the lead up to the game, you know, season ticket holders should never have been displaced and whatnot.
10:43 And, you know, the Black Cats bar, what happened there has been, you know, not good.
10:47 So there's still a lot of questions off the field to be answered as well.
10:51 And, yeah, as I say, never nice to lose 3-0, but I thought Sunderland fans especially could hang their head up
10:57 high because they were superb throughout.
11:00 No, I completely agree.
11:02 I thought the atmosphere was electric from the off.
11:05 Really incredible kind of occasion with the stadium full and the colours from the red and white on one side and the black and white on the other.
11:14 The goal, it was a real kind of a buzz with the atmosphere and the fans do deserve credit for that.
11:20 I just want to go back to, you mentioned this as well, and Theo will get asked in for his tactics and he'll get questioned
11:27 why substitute wasn't brought on into the 84th minute when Abdoulabar was brought on for Nassir Hussien.
11:34 But just looking at the Sunderland bench, Sunderland did have a few injuries with people who were frantically dapped and unavailable.
11:39 They circled out and Roberts as well, so it's a big loss as well.
11:43 But are there any players on that bench that he could have brought on sooner?
11:47 I looked at it and thought maybe Yoshih could have come on, but it does really show kind of there was a lack of options on the bench
11:55 and could feel he'd done much to change the game when it was kind of just drifting in that second period.
12:01 I think it's an interesting question.
12:02 Obviously, you mentioned that there was a lack of sort of a ready-made thing to come on and change the game.
12:07 Obviously, he only made one substitute during the whole game, as you mentioned.
12:12 I can read you the players that were on the bench.
12:14 Well, obviously it was Bishop who was the goalkeeper trying to conceal.
12:17 Yoshih, Berstow and Meir were the nine substitutes.
12:25 I think the one Sunderland fans would have been most keen to see, just because I think there's been a little bit of a clamour for him because he's so talented, is Chris Rigg.
12:34 We haven't seen him really for a while.
12:36 He's sort of on the bench, off the bench.
12:38 He's been playing for Sunderland in the FA Youth Cup.
12:40 He's been playing for the Under-21s.
12:42 He's had a funny time in his development.
12:44 I think he's got 10 or 11 first team appearances now over the season and a half since he made his debut.
12:50 A couple of goals in there as well against Southampton and Cru Alexander this season.
12:54 And I think Sunderland fans would have liked to have seen sort of his youthful exuberance.
13:00 The flip side of that is I completely understand why he wasn't put on just because he's 16.
13:06 It's a local derby.
13:08 He would have been fired up for it, biggest day of his career.
13:12 By far, a lot of his family are Newcastle fans, so he would have been wanting to prove a point, game live on ITV.
13:20 I'm not saying it would have ended in disaster, but it could have ended in disaster.
13:23 You never know. He probably needs protecting from himself in that situation, maybe.
13:29 Not that I'm saying Chris definitely would have come on and got a red card or something,
13:32 but really what benefit was there to bringing him on when Sunderland were 2 or 3-0 down?
13:38 Probably not a lot, but it would have been good experience for him.
13:41 And I could understand why Sunderland fans want him on because he's clearly a talent.
13:46 And I think that comes from a little bit of frustration that we haven't actually seen a great deal of him recently.
13:53 I think the other substitutes, Hamier, is he ready? No.
13:57 From what we've seen this season, he's not ready to play against Premier League opposition.
14:00 Doesn't look ready to play against Championship opposition at the moment.
14:03 So there was never any chance of him coming on.
14:06 Aoushoush, I think, yeah, you could make a case for him coming on, absolutely.
14:11 Out of the other forward players, you had Berstow, who hasn't scored in a Sunderland shirt yet.
14:15 Yes, he has some pedigree as he's on loan from Chelsea and has come up through the youth ranks there.
14:21 But was he going to come on and change the game? No.
14:25 I think the issue really lies in the squad strength and the squad depth.
14:29 But yeah, as I said earlier, it's Talon now.
14:32 I think that three Sunderland head coaches have sort of made similar comments.
14:38 And, you know, Michael Beale was appointed, what, three weeks ago?
14:42 And the message was that he is fully aligned.
14:45 But really, when he's got down into it and when the results have started coming and the games have started coming,
14:51 is he that aligned really?
14:53 Because he's now making comments that he can't bring on anybody from the bench to try and change the game,
14:58 which I know it's against Premier League opposition and I know you're trying to not get hammered against Newcastle United.
15:05 And, you know, you don't want it to be 4 or 5-0.
15:07 But for me, I think that's pretty telling, really, in terms of where this squad is.
15:11 And I don't want to crucify the lads on the bench either, because I think, you know,
15:15 hopefully they're going to become good players for Sunderland.
15:18 But yeah, it's a really tough balancing act.
15:22 And I don't, you know, I don't envy the club's decision makers.
15:25 But I think we've just adjusted the parameters a little bit too far
15:29 and they need to be adjusted a bit further back.
15:33 And I don't think that's unreasonable.
15:35 And that's not to say that the overarching strategy of the club isn't a good one.
15:40 You know, I think picking up people like Ross Stewart and Jack Clark and Patrick Roberts,
15:44 developing Dan Neal and Anthony Patterson, Elliot Elmerton before them,
15:49 is a good thing for Sunderland. Utilising the academy, absolutely.
15:52 Selling players for a profit as long as it's reinvested is a good, sound strategy for Sunderland.
15:57 But at some point, when you are strong and when you have good players at the club,
16:02 you do have to invest a little bit yourself.
16:04 And you do have to provide head coaches with the tools that they need to get the job done.
16:08 And at the moment, I don't think that's really happened yet,
16:12 albeit Sunderland's form in the league is decent and they're still up and around the play-off positions.
16:17 They just, for me, feel like they need that little bit more.
16:19 There's no Ahmad. That stardust has gone.
16:22 Could he come back in January? I don't know.
16:24 Obviously, we only had Ross Stewart for 12, 13 games,
16:27 but he managed to get 11 goals in those games last season,
16:29 which ended up being vital, actually, in terms of Sunderland getting a play-off position.
16:35 So, the missing quality, the missing experience, the missing a little bit of stardust,
16:40 as I say, not a knock on the players that are there.
16:42 I think it's just the fact of the reality of this Sunderland squad at the moment.
16:47 Yeah, I think the frustrating thing from a Sunderland point of view is the fact
16:51 that Sunderland were comfortable in Newcastle in the second half.
16:53 I think the two centre-backs, when it was a comfortable afternoon,
16:57 de Brabtica in Newcastle, I think, only really had that one save to make a decent effort from Pritchard.
17:03 In the second half, there were a couple of moments where Pritchard was kind of getting into pockets of space
17:08 just in front of the Newcastle forward.
17:10 Probably Sunderland's display of quality, in my opinion,
17:12 and a couple of efforts at goal, as I said.
17:14 I think Sunderland just lacked that player that could really run up.
17:17 That's where Patrick Roberts would have been very useful, even off the bench.
17:21 That's going to be an injury blown out of Thiel, saying after the game that he's going to be out for
17:25 probably about three, four weeks, Roberts.
17:27 So, it's going to be a big loss, as we just said there.
17:30 There was a lack of options on the bench, but we spoke about Thiel not making substitutions.
17:36 Could Sunderland have changed it up a little bit technically?
17:39 Because they were trying to run back, they got caught for the second goal,
17:44 trying to play on the edge of his own box.
17:46 But there were a couple of times when the ball was with Anson,
17:49 he flipped it just forward, Pritchard in the pocket of space,
17:52 and that created a few openings.
17:54 Could they have done that more, perhaps in that second half,
17:56 trying to get back in the game?
17:58 Yeah, I think so.
18:00 As I mentioned before, I think trying to play out for the bat against a Premier League team
18:05 is suicidal to a degree.
18:07 I know we had joy against Fulham last season, but it's a little bit of a different team
18:12 and Fulham play a little bit differently to Newcastle.
18:14 Newcastle are just a better side than Fulham.
18:16 Fulham are a good, solid Premier League side,
18:19 but Newcastle, I think, are something else at the moment.
18:22 Bruno's a £60m player and they've got a lot of them key in trip year.
18:26 Anthony Gordon, how much was he bought for Newcastle?
18:31 I can't even speak.
18:33 How much was Anthony Gordon purchased by Newcastle for Everton?
18:37 It was a lot of money, so there's an obvious gulf.
18:41 Smart tactics can go somewhere towards negating that gulf,
18:45 and I don't think Sunderland did that.
18:47 As I say, it was the same line-up from Sunderland's previous game in the Championship.
18:54 It was the same tactics.
18:58 Paterson nearly got caught out a couple of times on the ball.
19:00 Ekwood did get caught out a couple of times on the ball.
19:02 I thought Ballard and O'Neill were OK for the most part.
19:05 Obviously, Ballard were lucky to get those mistakes in,
19:07 but you just wanted to see something tactically a little bit different.
19:10 Could Sunderland have gone five at the back?
19:12 Could they have changed the style of play?
19:14 They needed to be pragmatic.
19:16 I don't think there's anything good that can come from sticking to your playing
19:20 out from the back principles when you're facing Newcastle United's first team,
19:24 when they're top four Premier League side and you're a top six Championship side.
19:29 Given the net spend and the outlays on squads,
19:33 I think Newcastle's is something like £300m in the last two or three or four windows,
19:38 something like that, whereas Sunderland's is probably looking at an outlay of
19:42 tops 20, and that's probably been generous in including the add-ons as well.
19:48 So, yes, tactics needed to change.
19:50 I thought it was bordering on gung-ho really when it didn't need to be,
19:58 and that midfield was just completely cut apart.
20:02 As you mentioned, a pretty tough day for Joe Bellingham.
20:04 I'm sure he wanted to show more than that.
20:07 But at the end of the day, he's 18 years old, so it was always going to be really tough for him.
20:11 As I say, the flip side of that is that they now know the standard.
20:15 They need to bank that experience.
20:16 They need to use that experience to try and get Sunderland and themselves personally
20:21 to where they want to be in football.
20:24 You mentioned earlier about the Black Cats.
20:27 It was a damaging season, losing this big team.
20:33 But just how damaging a week could it have been, obviously, with the Black Cats?
20:37 And then the 3-0 defeat against Newcastle, moving on to the rest of the game,
20:42 to the Champions League season.
20:44 I think they have to try and not let them affect it too much and realise that they were
20:54 played a Premier League team with an awful lot of money behind them.
20:56 But going into Ipswich Town on Saturday is a very, very tough game.
21:00 And the one after Hull the following Friday, that's a tough game as well
21:04 because Hull are a really good side.
21:06 Obviously, Ipswich Town have been a surprise package.
21:09 They've suffered a couple of losses recently.
21:12 But I think everyone's waiting for the wheels to fall off Ipswich Town.
21:18 If it's going to happen, it's happened a lot later than people predicted.
21:22 They've been up there now since the season started.
21:26 They're currently second, obviously, with 55 points from 26.
21:30 So, really, Sunderland, if they are serious about the top six aspirations,
21:36 Ipswich Town and Hull City, two massive tests.
21:39 Obviously, they did well against Hull City on Boxing Day,
21:41 so it's a quick turnaround, really, from that game.
21:43 A lot of football played in between, obviously, but two teams familiar with each other.
21:47 Liam Rossini, an extremely bright coach, as is Kieran McKenna in Ipswich Town.
21:52 And you hope Michael Beale now can show something tactically
21:55 because at Hull on Boxing Day, I was pretty pleased with his tactics
22:00 and the adjustments that he made.
22:02 But it's been tough going since then, I think, tactically for Sunderland.
22:06 He's going to have to be at his absolute best tactically
22:09 to beat Kieran McKenna's Ipswich Town and Liam Rossini's Hull City.
22:13 They're two massive games, obviously, Ipswich Town away from home.
22:16 Hull City at the Stadium of Light.
22:19 These are big games.
22:21 Sunderland sixth on 40 points at the moment.
22:24 We're just behind them on 39 and 7th,
22:27 Coventry breathing down both clubs' necks as are Cardiff.
22:30 You've got Watford, Bristol City, Middlesbrough in and around it as well on 36 points.
22:35 Norwich City, Preston on 35 points,
22:39 so that's not a very big gap from sixth to 14th.
22:42 And even below that, there's the likes of Millwall, Swansea and Blackburn Rovers
22:46 who are only three points off joining in that little mini league
22:50 as it's developed in the Championship.
22:52 So, as we always say, a couple of losses, you can see yourself falling backwards.
22:57 So, we have to be very, very careful against that, I think.
23:00 But hopefully, Sunderland will get a couple of good results.
23:03 But make no mistake, two massive games, and it doesn't matter whether you're
23:07 Sunderland in the Championship or Sunderland in the Premier League
23:09 or what mitigation there is, losing in Newcastle is never good for your popularity
23:14 and it's never good for the manager's lifespan.
23:19 So, hopefully, Sunderland can bounce back.
23:22 As you said, they're two very tough teams in Ipswich.
23:24 You have all of Ipswich, just looking at having one in five in the league
23:27 that would win the FA Cup against Wimbledon on Saturday.
23:31 But this season, it will be very tough against England as well.
23:37 We've also got all the transfer stuff as well going on.
23:40 Sunderland, I'm sure, will be looking to strengthen this month.
23:43 There could be some changes as well, potentially some keeping in mind.
23:47 But we'll wrap it up there.
23:48 I'm sure we'll have plenty more to discuss for the rest of the month,
23:51 the January transfer window.
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