Should I Raise My Wife's Boyfriend's Child?

Stefan Molyneux

"I got divorced in 2022, married since 2017. It was a "amicable divorce", but that is a loaded term. She asked for a divorce because she said that we weren't good together. That broke me. I didn't believe it, but then I realized why she was saying it. All the little things that I was ignoring came crashing home and I realized that she cheated on me.   "Now she is alone with a baby that is not mine. She is having a crisis and my heart hurts so much for her..."  Transcript: https://freedomain.com/should-i-raise-my-wifes-boyfriends-child-transcript/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00 So I was married for

00:00:02 five years together with my ex for seven altogether and

00:00:07 We got divorced

00:00:10 last November and

00:00:12 That is kind of a long story but

00:00:18 But anyway, so I've been

00:00:21 We think where'd you go

00:00:27 We got divorced and it was a what's called I'm sure you're aware an amicable amicable divorce

00:00:33 Which means we kind of figure things out on our own

00:00:36 we don't have to involve lawyers and all that and

00:00:40 Her reasoning was she was unhappy and kind of that that whole

00:00:47 line of thinking and

00:00:50 She

00:00:54 Shortly thereafter

00:00:56 Got a boyfriend which of course means certain things

00:01:01 And

00:01:05 They were together for about a year and then she's actually had a baby with him and

00:01:10 Now they split as soon as the baby was born. He's gone and I only know this because she checked me back

00:01:18 She sort of texted me again

00:01:20 and I

00:01:21 part of the reason why I emailed in was

00:01:26 I

00:01:28 Don't know how it is with other people but I

00:01:30 for me

00:01:32 once I love someone it never really goes away and

00:01:36 She is in a really hard place right now and I know it's not really my

00:01:42 Responsibility at all

00:01:46 but at the same time in my mind and maybe I think I was talking to another friend of mine and

00:01:53 he can think the same way like once married always married in the mind and

00:01:58 I

00:02:01 guess my big question like the big the big reason why I emailed in was I

00:02:06 Wonder

00:02:13 Which part of my body I'm thinking was to speak because I

00:02:19 Keep thinking she hasn't officially like asked me to kind of be part of

00:02:24 now in words so much as by action be part of her life and

00:02:29 I'm really on the fence about

00:02:34 Whether or not to

00:02:37 even engage in fact, I've kind of cut my

00:02:40 Text short whenever I text her about anything like whenever she's asking questions

00:02:46 and

00:02:48 So I guess my big my big question is that is kind of or a question for advice I get

00:02:55 It's not is it a bad idea

00:03:01 Just think I'm yeah

00:03:06 Well, listen, that's a great question to ask and a courageous question to ask and you said that there was a long story

00:03:16 Involved in the marriage. Well, I have

00:03:18 Six to seven minutes. No, I'm kidding. I have as much time as you want to

00:03:22 Tell me a little bit. We can stop at the outset. We can start with

00:03:26 the marriage

00:03:29 What's best you think are most relevant to you? I think

00:03:34 Hmm. Okay. I think the marriage is probably most relevant at this point, but I I was feeling

00:03:41 We're gonna get into the childhood

00:03:45 Really quickly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, especially well in now it'll all be secondhand

00:03:51 But she did tell me a lot about her childhood as well

00:03:54 So, okay, so

00:03:58 We met in

00:04:01 2015 in the year of our Lord and I was working

00:04:06 Just as like a store clerk

00:04:11 She would come in and actually we sir it was a like a bait type shop like bait head shop type thing it was

00:04:18 not what I do now, but

00:04:20 It's like one of those intermediary jobs. But anyway, it doesn't matter

00:04:24 she comes in and

00:04:27 she's a couple years younger than me and

00:04:30 I was just

00:04:33 You know how it is. I was completely captivated. I was helping somebody else out but

00:04:38 completely captivated like

00:04:41 Instant so she's very physical response. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, even now

00:04:45 And she's beat you in an addict store. Yes. Oh

00:04:50 No, we're already starting

00:04:54 So I'm just the backstory here so keep no I know yeah

00:04:59 so she comes in and seeing her shit with a friend and a girl and

00:05:06 They come in they want to try hookah

00:05:10 For the first time which I'm assuming I don't appear where no

00:05:15 No, yeah, I'm sorry

00:05:18 You know, do you know how much that sounds like hooker? No, no

00:05:21 I'm not like if you put that in a book the editor would be like, come on, man. That's too obvious

00:05:27 Why don't you just have her live on 304 Main Street?

00:05:31 Okay. All right. So yeah, she comes into the vape store and wants to try hook. Okay, go ahead. Yeah

00:05:39 Yeah

00:05:41 So I make it and

00:05:43 They sit down and they don't talk to me. They just but they keep looking at me, you know how the whole thing

00:05:49 Oh, I'll skip over kind of bored for this I guess cuz otherwise we'll be here for a couple of days

00:05:54 Anyway, she comes back the next day and this time she knows what she's doing and she's wearing like a

00:06:02 pretty white dress and

00:06:05 she just

00:06:07 Looking I mean if I was captivated before now like I'm completely in drool

00:06:13 So I we ask her on a date we go to coffee

00:06:20 Our first date is a date and what oh

00:06:25 We go to coffee. I'm sorry after I get off we go out to a coffee shop and

00:06:29 Coffee shop said cost. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Oh

00:06:32 That'd be a heck of a day

00:06:37 Yeah, get those free samples but no, but anyway we go to a coffee shop a local coffee shop and

00:06:43 I intend for it to be because it's kind of a little bit late. It's like 9 p.m. I think and

00:06:49 So I intend we're probably gonna be there for an hour. Maybe maybe two and

00:06:54 We end up just sitting outside on the patio talking over no coffee, you know

00:07:01 I mean, I've drink my coffee. She's drinkers until like 4:30 in the morning

00:07:06 and

00:07:07 so it starts out kind of with a

00:07:09 Bang, right? Well, no, no, that's that's not a good sign though, right? No. Yeah. Yeah

00:07:15 Why is that not a good sign?

00:07:17 What the start up? Oh, that's the food. Oh the 430 that's fusion. That's oh, I have no other responsibilities

00:07:25 You are my world

00:07:27 It's it's you know from from from famine to feast, you know all in a man's and yeah

00:07:35 It's not like a love bomb. It's like a cult technique or something

00:07:39 I don't know but this yeah, I would have some because people always say, you know

00:07:41 We talked until the Sun came up and it's like yeah, really you just man. This is you just merged like like

00:07:49 Baking ingredients or something. But anyway, go on. Yeah. No, no, that is a good. Okay. Yeah

00:07:56 Okay, so I take her home. That's I had picked her up and then I took her back to her apartment where her friends were

00:08:04 Worried sick about her her roommates

00:08:06 and

00:08:08 So she wasn't texting him or anything during the whole time. But anyway, so she's actually in grad school at this point studying

00:08:16 Psychotherapy basically and

00:08:20 She studied and this is actually kind of important to note she studied

00:08:27 her specialty was for sexually maladaptive youth and

00:08:33 Ends up working later. I don't I don't know what that phrase means. Oh

00:08:37 basically kids who have

00:08:40 either like young kids under the age of 13 who have either been

00:08:46 Molested or have

00:08:51 molested other kids

00:08:54 Or both well usually both actually, but she used to call me on the way home every day and home

00:08:59 Stories, so usually it's both

00:09:02 Issues and so

00:09:06 Let me see, so that's what she was getting her pretty a very pretty woman with no boundaries who's got

00:09:15 maybe a drug problem and

00:09:17 whose specialty is

00:09:19 victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse

00:09:22 Yeah, okay actually we can get into her childhood then at this point which I okay

00:09:31 I

00:09:33 Can't remember the test that you always reference. I can't remember what it's called, but it's the

00:09:38 Scale of the child's experience test the a test. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, he would score about a nine

00:09:44 Maybe a ten. I can't remember what ten is but I think

00:09:48 on that

00:09:51 Because about as bad as it can be right? I mean, yeah, not as bad as it can be

00:09:55 And when did you find that out over the course of dating her?

00:10:00 Yeah about

00:10:02 Two or three months in she kind of

00:10:07 Wanted to have a talk with me about

00:10:10 Because something had happened. It was her her father that

00:10:14 That helped her choose the path of the sexual and adaptive use study and

00:10:20 He was in prison, but something had happened and she wanted to talk to me about it

00:10:25 And that's when she told me about it, and I knew at the time

00:10:29 That this is like

00:10:33 Major red flag zone

00:10:36 But you know

00:10:39 well, I

00:10:42 I will admit so I

00:10:44 I listen I have listened to your podcast pretty much. I think since you were recording. I think I'm just phone in your car

00:10:51 And I know don't don't tell me that though

00:10:54 Well, no, no, no, no, don't tell me that. Why why do I not want to hear that?

00:10:58 Well, because the reason the reason I I had stopped listening for a long time and I started to kind of self-delude

00:11:07 Okay. Okay. So you yeah, you withdrew from philosophy and fell off a cliff. Okay, I did that's okay

00:11:14 Then not that that's great, but I can no no, but it it's it was

00:11:18 Whenever I stopped listening it was more. I don't actually know why

00:11:24 but it was like I went into a deep pit and

00:11:27 just

00:11:29 wound in there for

00:11:31 three or four years

00:11:33 You know like cutting philosophy out of your life is like turning the engines off on your airplane

00:11:38 I mean, yeah, you'll still fly I guess for a while

00:11:41 But you're kind of heading in one general direction

00:11:45 Yeah. Yeah, that that is that yeah, that's true. And that's what

00:11:52 Uh, well

00:11:54 But yeah, I didn't want you to think that I was listening to you during this because like you've always provided kind of a

00:12:00 clarity

00:12:02 and encourage like

00:12:04 I don't know. It's hard to explain actually but it encouraged me to read other things and to study and

00:12:09 And whenever I cut it off like I stopped

00:12:12 I kind of went down that dark

00:12:16 Dark journey, um into the woods as

00:12:20 As

00:12:22 Shakespeare might describe in

00:12:25 So

00:12:28 I had self-deluded myself into thinking

00:12:30 I'm gonna be the savior

00:12:34 of this for

00:12:36 Innocent soul not innocent, but that's what I told myself, I think

00:12:40 and

00:12:43 Be the rock be the whatever she needs so that

00:12:49 She can correct

00:12:51 A lot of the problems in her life

00:12:56 um

00:12:58 That was what I was thinking so for two years we dated

00:13:01 And with this in my head, you're a proud owner of the magic penis, right?

00:13:06 Uh, yeah healing healing staff of anti-crazy vaccination

00:13:11 No, because if you want to save her

00:13:15 You can be her friend, right?

00:13:18 Yeah, yeah, right. You could just be her friend

00:13:20 But no you you you I can't save her without the penis

00:13:25 I must dick her into sanity

00:13:28 So, yeah, I mean so the savior thing, okay, so what was your thinking about the whole savior thing

00:13:36 um

00:13:38 I

00:13:40 I honestly thought I I

00:13:42 I honestly thought to myself that I was

00:13:47 I was so stable in my own morality and my own everything

00:13:51 that

00:13:54 Bringing her into my life fully and being her main and only influence

00:13:58 would

00:14:00 Man, that sounds psychotic now that i'm saying it out loud

00:14:02 that's

00:14:05 I didn't

00:14:08 Well, that's what I was thinking though i'll

00:14:10 that was me then that

00:14:12 I know I can't really divorce me now for me then so much but

00:14:16 That was my thinking I remember clearly thinking wait. So sorry. What was your thinking that that you're so stable?

00:14:22 And you have such great people around you that you're gonna

00:14:25 Bring her out of the darkness and into the light and in this sort of giant gravity

00:14:30 Well of your own sanity and health she will be washed clean of all dysfunction. This is something like that

00:14:35 Yeah, well, yeah, I think so that's

00:14:40 What happened though was the opposite that was?

00:14:43 I lost all those friends

00:14:45 like actually now that i'm thinking about just like you described I think just

00:14:49 In oh one of the tough one of the shows you've been last late last year

00:14:55 probably multiple actually but

00:14:58 It ended up me not having friends and it just being me and her

00:15:02 And actually and it seemed

00:15:05 Good though that was but I guess it always probably does seem good but

00:15:15 Okay, was she still in contact with her abusive family

00:15:19 Uh, no. Well, oh well not initially

00:15:23 She did get in contact with her mother who?

00:15:26 I

00:15:30 I don't think I thought it through entirely until well, I wasn't really

00:15:36 Thinking with the right head I think but I wasn't thinking it through entirely

00:15:42 You gotta boil see you know this story so well

00:15:45 Yeah that you can skip and jump all over the place

00:15:48 Oh, i'm sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Okay, so so she she was not in touch with her abusive family

00:15:56 And then she got back in touch over the course of your dating. Is that right? Yeah during the dating

00:16:02 Yeah during the two years of dating she got back in touch with her mother

00:16:06 um

00:16:09 who

00:16:10 Who had at the time whenever she found out that her husband was abusing not just her yet her?

00:16:16 Uh youngest child, but all three of her children

00:16:20 Um, they divorced he went to prison

00:16:23 but

00:16:26 And for how long was your ex-wife?

00:16:28 molested oh

00:16:31 Well, that's the problem. Yeah three years from what I understand

00:16:35 And what are the ages?

00:16:38 She was three whenever it started and six whenever it ended

00:16:41 Her brother was that's I mean, that's obviously that's

00:16:45 Awful and terrible and you know massive sympathies, uh to everyone but the parents. All right, right

00:16:51 Exactly. No, and that's what I didn't think about it really until years later how how much that implicates her mother

00:17:00 and of course we were married and

00:17:03 all that but

00:17:05 How much that implicates her mother?

00:17:08 Because for three years her mother had no idea

00:17:11 that her husband that mother's husband was

00:17:16 Doing these things to the children which implies a lot of um

00:17:23 So I applied a lot of date her in inattention which actually carries over because

00:17:30 even during our wedding her own mother was fairly unattended and I

00:17:35 There's a lot of things I should have probably done instead of just letting it be

00:17:40 but um

00:17:43 But I wanted why did she get back in touch with her mother?

00:17:45 um

00:17:48 I think it's because i'm not entirely certain. I I think it partially has to do with

00:17:54 the urging of

00:17:57 One of her her aunt she was still in touch with her aunt who lives

00:18:02 An entirely different part of the country than her mother and doesn't really

00:18:06 Talk to her mother very much. But her aunt gave the you know, kind of the line of

00:18:11 Hey, you shouldn't ignore your mother like this. She gave birth to you and all this sort of thing

00:18:17 and

00:18:19 It went from there. I mean that lasted for a few months before she finally, uh, I think called her mom and

00:18:25 They kind of re-established a communication

00:18:30 communication

00:18:32 So if I if I this is from my perspective, I I think that what happened i'm not

00:18:38 100% sure that's exactly yeah, that's okay. I just just wanted to but but the mother was at your wedding, right?

00:18:46 Uh, she was yeah, um because we got married

00:18:50 um

00:18:52 yeah, september of

00:18:54 2017 so

00:18:56 So it was before it was shortly before we got married and how long did you date before you got married?

00:19:01 Uh about two years, uh, you think yeah about two years and maybe a little bit more and how was that relationship overall?

00:19:09 uh

00:19:11 I'll tell you i've had i'm i've only had two real serious girlfriends before her

00:19:16 and that didn't end up working out, but obviously that's but um

00:19:22 I have never felt so

00:19:26 Adored

00:19:28 I'd never felt so, um

00:19:33 Adored or loved

00:19:38 My entire life not even by my own parents

00:19:41 For my

00:19:45 I did not anticipate my throat going completely dry

00:19:50 So

00:19:52 So I yeah, I did not anticipate but it was I

00:20:01 But it was a kind of devotion that was

00:20:04 Like I was the only person in her world and I knew that probably wasn't healthy but I also was

00:20:15 A very very selfish person as well at that point. Maybe I still am

00:20:20 Sorry again, you're you're telling me all of these conclusions

00:20:24 With no facts. I just completely zone out when I was selfish. I was this I was that it's like

00:20:30 I still don't know any of the facts, right? Well, so like

00:20:33 I would wait so initially

00:20:35 um whenever we

00:20:38 Oh, you probably should know this. Um, so she did move in with me before we got married

00:20:43 Um, and initially she didn't have a job

00:20:45 Because she was still finishing up an unpaid internship

00:20:49 And then she'll get a job with that company after

00:20:52 And

00:20:55 The internship wasn't very much so she would stay home and like she'd clean and do

00:20:59 Like cook before I got home. I worked at a warehouse at this point, though

00:21:04 um shortly after we started dating

00:21:06 I upgraded my job. I quit at the

00:21:11 Smoke shop and uh went to a warehouse

00:21:15 Making a quite a bit more money, but um

00:21:19 But

00:21:24 She didn't really have any friends

00:21:26 Outside of me at that point because all of her friends were college friends that all

00:21:31 Flew back home around the country

00:21:34 Uh, so it was just me and her for about two or three years

00:21:41 Um

00:21:43 And she I mean she had some work

00:21:45 I don't know

00:21:48 They would be friends I guess but we never hung out with them outside of

00:21:52 Work really, uh, not initially

00:21:55 um

00:21:58 so

00:21:59 I guess

00:22:00 to describe the relationship though, it is one in which

00:22:04 I had her full attention at all times like

00:22:08 As soon as I got off work

00:22:10 It was just me and her

00:22:12 Until I went to work the next morning

00:22:14 And even after we got married and she was working. I mean she was working at that point for sure. Um,

00:22:21 After we got married as soon as I got home I got home before her

00:22:25 And she would call me on her way home and tell me about her day all the way because it was like a 20 minute

00:22:33 commute

00:22:34 or so

00:22:37 Tell me about all the

00:22:38 all the different things

00:22:40 that happened and

00:22:42 We did that every day for five years pretty much. Well every working day, of course

00:22:47 For five years and or four and a half

00:22:50 Um, so it was it was one of those kinds of relationships, right even though I knew that there were some

00:22:57 Red flags in the beginning. I didn't really see

00:23:04 Any real problems until the very end

00:23:06 And uh

00:23:10 We went I mean we took

00:23:13 We traveled around the country. I mean during the marriage

00:23:17 we would travel around the country and go to state parks and national parks and go hiking we had a

00:23:23 Initially just one dog and then we had two dogs. Um,

00:23:27 take them out and

00:23:29 Uh always got an excuse to go out and enjoy nature

00:23:34 and

00:23:36 Kind of be together and that was like the whole goal

00:23:38 However, she never really wanted well instead she didn't want children and I wasn't

00:23:46 Inclined towards children, um at least initially at

00:23:53 But

00:23:57 So we didn't really focus on that too much

00:24:00 other than the avoidance of that, um

00:24:04 um

00:24:06 The relationship I sorry when you say the avoidance you mean the avoidance of like having

00:24:10 Unprotected sex you don't mean you didn't avoid the topic. You just both talked about no, no, no one kids, right?

00:24:15 No about once a year. I would ask her or maybe more than that. Maybe a couple times a year i'd ask her if

00:24:21 Anything had changed because I didn't want to be

00:24:25 Uh, because I'm gonna be honest with you I it wasn't that I didn't want kids it was that

00:24:33 I didn't

00:24:35 I didn't feel the need or the urgency so much

00:24:38 um

00:24:40 to have kids especially with someone who

00:24:42 Really really did not want to have kids like very much so and I was okay with that

00:24:49 um

00:24:52 I'm

00:24:53 But yeah, so we didn't avoid the topic we just

00:24:55 used

00:24:57 contraceptives

00:24:59 so

00:25:00 And she didn't waver in her desire like she just didn't want kids, right?

00:25:03 No, yeah, no, not no, he didn't and now that does come into play after we got divorced

00:25:10 She did from what I understand at least accidentally get pregnant

00:25:15 and

00:25:17 The text methods that she sent me

00:25:19 about it because I asked her if

00:25:21 I'm, sorry. I'm, sorry

00:25:24 Yeah, unless that kid can walk on water. I don't understand the accidentally got pregnant thing

00:25:30 Ah, yeah, I mean you were with her

00:25:32 Since 2017 and she didn't get pregnant, right?

00:25:35 So help me understand. I don't know what it means. What do you mean accidentally?

00:25:39 Got pregnant help me understand that

00:25:42 I

00:25:44 that well

00:25:46 I would be mostly speculating but I was very very careful whenever she and I uh engaged in

00:25:52 No, no women have 15 different forms, sorry 18 different forms of birth control. Oh

00:25:59 If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she's not getting pregnant

00:26:02 Oh, that's true. And I will say while we were married. She did go off of birth control because

00:26:07 Her doctor said that it was what was causing

00:26:10 Like massive cystic acne like all over

00:26:14 Her body and not just her face but everywhere

00:26:18 and so she went off of birth control and I just used

00:26:21 And and I you know, I was okay with that that was

00:26:28 um

00:26:30 I'm still not sure what it means that she accidentally got pregnant. I mean she had i'm sorry

00:26:36 She had vaginal sex I assume without protections as she got pregnant

00:26:39 Yeah, that's what

00:26:42 Uh, yeah. Well and that's it is a good point. Okay, actually I didn't think

00:26:47 To ask that question of myself or of the situation. Yes

00:26:52 Uh, yeah, well and okay, and that's her

00:26:56 That would explain her text then because she said she never knew the joy it would bring her

00:27:02 um

00:27:04 And she I don't remember what the text said exactly

00:27:07 But I self-blamed at the end of the text slightly and this is whenever she and her

00:27:11 Now it's I guess. Um

00:27:14 Sorry, I'm gonna get a back up here because this is the first report of direct communication from her to you

00:27:21 Oh, okay. Yeah, so you want to have kids? She doesn't want to have kids. She's vehement and

00:27:26 Insistent and 100 that she doesn't want to have kids, right?

00:27:31 And then

00:27:33 After she gets pregnant she texts you and she says I didn't know the joy that it would bring me to have children

00:27:38 Yeah, like bro, if that ain't a stab to the heart and gonads, I don't know what is

00:27:44 It was in yeah

00:27:47 Yeah, that's beyond horrible

00:27:51 Yeah

00:27:52 That's like that's like if you're some cheating guy

00:27:55 Right. Yeah, and you break up with your girlfriend or your wife because you keep cheating, right?

00:28:00 And then you meet some new

00:28:02 Woman, and then you text your ex saying, you know, I just can't tell you how beautiful it is to be monogamous

00:28:08 I never had any idea how beautiful it is to not sleep around like a man whore

00:28:13 Yeah

00:28:16 Yeah, I

00:28:18 Okay, so everything is not

00:28:20 Uh, hi, does she did she have any sense that that would be an incredibly wounding thing for you to hear?

00:28:25 Yeah

00:28:30 I think so. I I think she must have because

00:28:34 Boy I forgot how that made me feel whenever because this text was

00:28:41 Um a few months ago

00:28:43 That she we don't talk often. It's every couple of months. She'll text me or i'll text her about

00:28:49 something and

00:28:51 um

00:28:52 I forgot how hard that hit me and

00:28:54 I think

00:28:57 I was married to her for five years. I should know but i'm not sure because like the way she asked for a divorce was

00:29:04 Felt so gut-wrenching heartless and out of it. I know it wasn't out of the blue

00:29:10 but it felt like it was and

00:29:13 like

00:29:15 it was

00:29:17 It felt okay. You're off on story time things. I don't know about i'm sorry. I'm sorry

00:29:21 I'm, the way she asked for divorce. It's like I don't know she did. Yeah. Okay. So why don't you tell me about the decline of

00:29:28 Yes, the marriage when did it start to go bad? Okay, so in 2000 and after we'd been together

00:29:34 For four and some four years and some months, um

00:29:41 Oh, it would have been in the beginning of the year

00:29:46 2000 and

00:29:48 When did we get divorced 2022? So, uh, like january february 2022 I noticed

00:29:53 That she was pulling away a lot emotionally

00:29:56 uh quite a bit for the first time in

00:29:59 Six roughly six years six and a half years

00:30:02 And she had never done that before and so it was shocking to the system that

00:30:07 she became

00:30:10 Kind of cold and tallid and we talked about it and

00:30:15 uh, nothing she she assuaged my fears and my

00:30:19 Because of course i'm gonna fear something's up

00:30:22 and

00:30:25 I don't remember exactly what she said, but um

00:30:27 I was okay at the end of that conversation. I felt like okay

00:30:31 Nothing's wrong. She's just kind of going through a hard time

00:30:34 Uh, then about a month later

00:30:37 She said she told me that she doesn't think that our marriage is working out just out of the blue like as

00:30:45 And of course between the time we talked and then the time she said

00:30:49 She doesn't think we're working out

00:30:51 There was still a bit of distance, but I kind of thought

00:30:55 I I didn't really understand what the distance was from like no matter what I did. I couldn't get her to talk

00:31:04 about it, um

00:31:07 Because I would say that's exactly to another guy, right? I mean, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you already know

00:31:14 That's

00:31:15 so I didn't know and

00:31:17 That lasted and I I refused

00:31:21 I mean I was i'll tell you I was in tears

00:31:24 You said that last night, but I don't know what that i'm, sorry

00:31:27 um, so the first time she asked I just realized I hadn't

00:31:31 Said the first time she said we're not doing well and

00:31:34 This isn't working

00:31:39 I just based I just straight up refused and said this we're not no, this is not

00:31:44 You're going through something. I don't know what it is

00:31:47 But we're not going to talk about divorce just out of nowhere

00:31:51 And so she she got quiet and we didn't talk about it

00:31:55 and

00:31:58 I did not feel good about saying that or you didn't talk about the problems you were having

00:32:02 Uh, oh, I didn't want to talk about divorce, but i've been asking her up until that point

00:32:07 About the like what is the problem because I was doing

00:32:10 I felt like I maybe not to this day. I still don't know

00:32:14 Exactly what I was doing wrong

00:32:17 to

00:32:19 push her away or

00:32:21 Even give her the conception

00:32:24 Of looking around at other guys good. Okay. Sorry. So

00:32:28 But what what what were the virtues that you loved about her?

00:32:31 What what virtues did she manifest?

00:32:35 that you love she was well, yeah, this gets so stupid now because

00:32:39 The reason why I married her the virtues

00:32:42 for which I married her were

00:32:45 She was one of the most

00:32:47 Honest people I knew I had ever met or at least looking back now, I guess that's how I perceived her

00:32:56 um

00:32:59 She was okay. So hang on so want to yeah

00:33:03 I mean given that she lied to you

00:33:05 About your marriage. Yeah, that's not a virtue, right? So she's

00:33:08 Proven a liar. There's no form of state where somebody's not a liar liar doesn't just sort of grow

00:33:13 On you right tumor

00:33:15 So when you were dating her

00:33:17 What was your experience that that gave you the thought that she was very honest, uh, because um

00:33:26 Whenever we talked about

00:33:30 Anything she would uh

00:33:33 um

00:33:34 Never really held back her opinions

00:33:36 and it wasn't just that though, I know that's kind of almost superficial, but

00:33:41 um, she

00:33:43 I'm trying to think of an example because

00:33:48 She was very forthright with um

00:33:53 If something was wrong say for instance, this isn't in a specific example, but say for instance, we got a bill

00:34:00 Uh, we went out to you. No, I I want listen, you knew the woman for seven years

00:34:05 Yeah, and I call example

00:34:07 Okay, you're right

00:34:10 Yeah, you're right. I've been a doctor in the er for seven years. Can you give me an example of something you've treated? No

00:34:16 But here's something I read about in a textbook once and it's like what?

00:34:20 No, okay. Yeah. No, you're right about that. That's I I have been

00:34:25 New before I even started saying the word. Um

00:34:29 okay, so

00:34:31 She always chose for instance, um

00:34:35 When i'm sorry, she knows

00:34:40 I i'm trying to think of something specific and didn't like them

00:34:48 I'm sorry. Sorry. Can you hear me? I can um, can you hear me? Yes

00:34:58 Yes, and I couldn't catch that word

00:35:01 um

00:35:04 Oh the I said she always chose and then I backed up because that was not a specific example. Um,

00:35:12 That was going to be another general. Sorry. Go ahead

00:35:15 Oh, okay. You can hear me now

00:35:18 Oh, no, I could hear you the whole time I just wasn't sure if you could hear me, okay

00:35:22 so i'm still waiting for an example of

00:35:26 What she did to earn the the title, uh, very honest

00:35:30 I'm sure there was

00:35:42 Okay, so let's let's just be honest you just made that up yeah pretty

00:35:47 Because you didn't want to say basically she was pretty and you know

00:35:53 Yeah, good sex and I love her on my arm and a good and there were positive qualities that she had

00:35:59 Right

00:36:03 your

00:36:04 Sexual dysfunction like you were molested for three years from three to six by a father who went to prison

00:36:09 Do you think in particular?

00:36:12 Until two or three months into a relapsing dimension that little

00:36:16 Yeah, I

00:36:22 Yeah, I do

00:36:24 Sorry

00:36:28 My father

00:36:31 Is now in prison you don't think that's something that someone should tell you

00:36:36 Before a couple of months into the relationship

00:36:40 yeah, I I

00:36:43 Yeah, my perspective now

00:36:45 I think so. I at the time I excused it because it's so

00:36:49 Uh

00:36:51 Not embarrassing but it's it's such a shocking revelation I

00:36:59 I guess I excused it in my own mind

00:37:04 but

00:37:07 Or why do you think it would be a good thing to say that sooner than later

00:37:12 Well, so that

00:37:17 Whoever your prospective date or partner is

00:37:20 Knows what he's getting into before he bonds to you too much

00:37:27 Yeah, I mean

00:37:31 Especially I guess when she was dating you she was out of touch with her family, right?

00:37:35 Her family of origin most yeah for the most part. Yeah

00:37:39 Okay, that's that's a yes or no question

00:37:42 Uh, well, no because her aunt I mean she was still in touch with her aunt but um, oh i'm sorry

00:37:48 You said family of origin. Yes. Yes. That is a yes

00:37:50 I'm, okay. Well, I mean, I guess the origin that she was in touch with extended family

00:37:55 the reason that you would want to know is of course

00:37:58 you would want to know if

00:38:01 somebody had

00:38:04 Um

00:38:05 I assume had she gone through a lot of therapy for her issues

00:38:09 Oh, yeah, um up until the time she went to college from the age of six to I guess eight seventeen or eighteen

00:38:15 whenever

00:38:17 College, okay, so she'd gone through a lot of that

00:38:19 The reason that you would want to talk about that is first of all, this is not just the individual

00:38:26 But it's the gene pool and the family that you're marrying into especially if she's still in contact even with her extended family

00:38:32 so this is the the gene pool and this is the

00:38:35 um

00:38:38 the family that you're

00:38:40 Going to be uh marrying into and this family is blind to a vicious rampant pedophile right in their midst

00:38:47 So, you know that seems seems kind of important and also of course that uh, she

00:38:53 It would have an effect

00:38:55 Uh, it could have an effect on her reproductive organs. We don't have to get into any details, but it could

00:38:59 And it could also uh, it certainly would have an effect on her parenting style her desire

00:39:06 For for being a mother and that there's a lot

00:39:08 that would

00:39:10 go on

00:39:12 With all of that, right?

00:39:14 Right. That's true. Yeah

00:39:16 That's now when your family when you're you I don't know do you have siblings

00:39:22 I have two sisters. Yeah one other one

00:39:25 So when your siblings

00:39:28 your sisters

00:39:30 And your parents found out about your girlfriend's history. What did they say?

00:39:36 um

00:39:38 Well, my mother was more

00:39:41 uh

00:39:45 More just sympathetic

00:39:47 I guess and my mother also had she wasn't molested as a child. I don't think but

00:39:52 She had a very abusive

00:39:55 Family growing up physically abusive and verbally emotionally

00:39:59 So she I think that might be part of the reason why she sympathized

00:40:05 with her very much and my dad

00:40:07 He he and I did talk about it

00:40:11 But he said he would

00:40:15 He thinks it's risky, but he

00:40:17 would I know her better than he does is what he said so

00:40:21 um

00:40:23 and of course I was

00:40:25 I think I might have still been blind to it. Well, I was blind to it up until

00:40:32 Sorry blind to what what do you what do you mean? Uh to the to the implications of the red flag

00:40:37 I mean to the implications of her past

00:40:40 until

00:40:42 at least a year into our marriage at least maybe two I didn't think about it because

00:40:47 I never saw anything come of it. She seemed

00:40:51 Well, she seemed

00:40:56 More than stable for

00:41:00 For what she had gone through as a child

00:41:02 I I don't know what any of that you see these are all just conclusions

00:41:07 And if you're just going to tell me conclusions, there's nothing I can do to help you

00:41:11 Oh, okay, right because because if like if your conclusions are correct

00:41:15 then

00:41:18 You don't need my help if your conclusions are incorrect

00:41:20 They don't help the conversation at all

00:41:22 Like this is why I keep like i'm on my knees just begging you to give me some facts rather than these endless conclusions

00:41:28 Which are really alienating and distancing from me

00:41:30 Like i've gotta i've got to listen to you for like an hour before I get a scrap of direct communication, which is her

00:41:35 Telling you how happy she is to be pregnant after telling you for

00:41:38 Six years that she didn't want to have kids with you, right? So right that's why like I mean, dude

00:41:44 Please just give up brothers and facts. I just I'm dying out here

00:41:48 Okay. Yeah, i'll i'll i'll okay, so

00:41:52 So you said that she seemed more than stable given what she'd been through, right?

00:41:58 Right and that's that's what like I don't I don't know what any of that means. I don't know what standard you have

00:42:04 Uh, I don't know like

00:42:06 How is that relative to a woman who wasn't sexually abused?

00:42:09 For three years at such an early age like whose father didn't go to prison

00:42:14 I mean, maybe she had to testify in court for all I know right and her siblings were also

00:42:18 uh

00:42:20 Abused sexually abused as children. So when you say well, you know given all that she went through she was super stable

00:42:26 You understand there's so many variables there

00:42:28 I can't possibly process what any of that means

00:42:30 In reality and the other thing too like your credibility to be frank

00:42:34 My friend is not super high because you say I said well

00:42:37 What what were the virtues you love to for and you say honesty and I say can you give me an example?

00:42:41 Ba ba ba ba. Nope. Nope. Nope, right?

00:42:44 Right, give me a theoretical one. So your conclusions

00:42:48 Are a suspect to be honest. This is why i'm begging you for facts because I don't trust your conclusions

00:42:54 Not because you're an untrustworthy guy, but you know, this is a lot of right accumulated experience and scar tissue

00:42:59 And I sympathize with all of that

00:43:01 But you know, I keep asking you for facts and you just keep giving me

00:43:04 Conclusions that I I don't know what the evidence for is and when I do finally ask you for the evidence for one

00:43:10 There's none

00:43:12 Right. So the fact that your conclusions are just a bunch of noise that's misdirecting the conversation. So okay forget forget

00:43:21 The standard of well, she was sexually abused and this and the other what were the evidence of stability or instability

00:43:28 Early on in your relationship

00:43:32 early on especially

00:43:34 um

00:43:35 she

00:43:37 I know that I mean just after six months of knowing her

00:43:39 She never

00:43:43 Had any

00:43:45 And maybe my standard is

00:43:50 Probably my own mother and the two women I dated before her but she never had any emotional breakdowns that I could

00:43:57 At all what six weeks no emotional breakdowns

00:44:01 Six months six months is what I meant if I six months no emotional breakdowns. That's your standard

00:44:08 uh

00:44:10 And that uh

00:44:14 I suppose well, not your sister. Really your sister. They also have emotional breakdowns on. Oh my yes

00:44:20 Okay, so your sisters have emotional breakdowns your mother and and what do you mean by an emotional breakdown?

00:44:26 Just like completely losing it like screaming it curling into a ball. Like what do you mean?

00:44:30 all of the above and

00:44:33 Screaming is one thing that always except my youngest sister doesn't scream. She just curls into a ball and kind of disappears

00:44:40 my older sister and mother both

00:44:43 I grew up with them constantly

00:44:45 Just any tiny little thing that goes wrong in their life

00:44:50 they

00:44:52 they will um

00:44:54 Make it dramatic make it something that's just

00:44:58 uh larger than life and no one can help

00:45:02 And okay, so they're kind of hysterical, right? Oh

00:45:06 Yeah, that's why I don't what does your what does your dad do in these

00:45:12 situations

00:45:14 So

00:45:17 Okay, it's not funny I shouldn't laugh but um before

00:45:25 Okay, where do I start? Yeah now, okay now he

00:45:30 He will try to calm her with a calm tone and

00:45:36 uh, but

00:45:38 Oh like like the guy in jurassic park, but the raptors right to speak to them

00:45:41 Even tone and try and talk them off their ledge, right?

00:45:44 Yeah, actually that is a really good. Uh

00:45:48 Whatever you call an analogy or stimuli I guess and yeah, it's that's what he tries to do now

00:45:56 I will say okay

00:45:58 This is where it gets a little hairy because he didn't used to be that way

00:46:02 he used to take control of the situation and

00:46:06 As in he would he would have a commanding

00:46:09 Present. I don't know

00:46:11 Actually how to describe

00:46:13 How to describe it, but everyone stood to attention

00:46:16 Whenever he decided to intervene

00:46:19 He wasn't not like not

00:46:22 Not like yelling or anything either. It was just the tone of his voice. My mother would

00:46:28 instantly calm down

00:46:30 um, however

00:46:35 I can't remember what year it was, but I was in fourth grade, I think

00:46:39 um, and he

00:46:42 Cheated on my mother, uh, he was a preacher or is is still um

00:46:48 and so he counseled a lot of people and

00:46:52 I won't make excuses for him, but

00:46:55 Um, he did cheat on her and from that point onward he was no longer

00:47:04 Um

00:47:05 He lost his authority and people wouldn't his his the women wouldn't defer to him because he was at fault and

00:47:10 Now do you have any idea?

00:47:13 What was the stuff that led up to it? I'm not excusing him. I'm just yeah, I mean was it that his I do

00:47:18 Uh, he sorry dude, like oh, I feel constantly rushed in this conversation. Do you know why i'm sorry?

00:47:23 No, do you know why?

00:47:25 I don't know because you barely let me get a word in edgewise before you start talking over me

00:47:30 So you just need to take a deep freaking breath

00:47:34 Let me talk you're here. You're here for me to ask questions, right and to you know, give some feedback

00:47:39 Hopefully so you need to calm down and just let me talk. Okay, because I start asking

00:47:44 Right, it's really kind of staticky on my brain so all right, so do you know if

00:47:52 Your

00:47:54 parents like

00:47:56 Did did your mom stop having sex with your dad or like was there anything that you know?

00:47:59 That might have been causal in the marriage that might have led him

00:48:02 To be more likely to stray

00:48:04 Yes

00:48:06 um, I know because

00:48:08 Because my mother told me and the elders of the church told me um

00:48:15 Exactly what happened and i'm assuming they're

00:48:20 Narrators that I can trust but um assuming they're right the elders in the church

00:48:27 um

00:48:29 Everything that he wanted to do to help

00:48:32 Make make the church grow and help the community like reach out to the poor. That was one thing that the elders were against

00:48:38 if you can believe it and

00:48:41 um, they wanted to reach out to the more wealthy people in town

00:48:45 And my dad didn't want to do that. And so he didn't do that. He

00:48:49 did what

00:48:51 he felt was right and

00:48:53 So they constantly in every meeting that they had for probably two years

00:49:00 Just it was constant abuse and my mother

00:49:04 Initially, I mean no no, no not initially she from the beginning

00:49:09 um took the side of the elders and

00:49:13 Whenever he got home

00:49:15 Sorry

00:49:22 Well, it's fine it's fine to be emotional go ahead

00:49:28 You

00:49:30 Whenever he got home the fight that they were they would have

00:49:36 Man I didn't think this this would get me because this is so old

00:49:46 You know, nothing's old in the heart right the heart is timeless but going

00:49:57 Okay

00:49:59 Okay, deep breath the fights that they would have were so

00:50:03 horrible

00:50:07 But I would go outside no hitting they wouldn't hit each other but the amount

00:50:13 Of abuse that my dad took

00:50:18 That's why even though I don't excuse his behavior

00:50:23 Because he promised her

00:50:27 in marriage

00:50:29 I understand why i'll tell you that

00:50:33 Because everybody around him

00:50:36 Broke him down all the way

00:50:40 And he told me uh

00:50:46 Shortly after we moved we had to move they stayed together. They didn't get divorced

00:50:50 we had and I imagine it's because she had complete and utter power over him, I don't know but

00:50:57 That's the only thing I can think of why she would stay with him after

00:51:00 Hearing the things she said

00:51:03 What do you mean what did what did she say to him? Oh she

00:51:08 The

00:51:13 It wasn't just what she said, but she would tell him things like he is nothing

00:51:19 He's always uh

00:51:23 She doesn't know why he always has to go against everyone else

00:51:28 And but it wasn't what she said it was how she said it was I mean

00:51:36 Even as a child I was

00:51:40 Oh man, it tore me up inside that's why I had to go outside every time because

00:51:52 Screaming at a contempt at him. Is that is that? Oh, yeah, it was complete and utter contempt for

00:51:57 I mean it sounded to me as a child. I mean from my memory. Um

00:52:01 It sounded to me like she was intentionless even that he

00:52:05 even existed I mean

00:52:08 It well, she was she was probably being worked over by the elders

00:52:13 Like you've got to get him to change it's it's you know, the soul of the congregation depends on you

00:52:18 So she was probably being whipped into a frenzy against her own husband by outsiders and was just sort of channeling their hatred

00:52:24 to some degree

00:52:26 Yeah that okay. I didn't yeah, I actually never considered that that's

00:52:29 but I have always

00:52:32 Well since then I have always held my mother at length like at arm's length kind of it

00:52:39 Just because I

00:52:42 I don't know. I

00:52:44 Couldn't really look at her after that. It's basically

00:52:46 What my dad did

00:52:49 After to kind of try to make up for it

00:52:51 I mean, I don't know if you can make up for chance

00:52:53 Uh, but to make up for

00:52:58 He and I went down we moved down south, um without them at first because we bought a piece of property sorry without your mother

00:53:07 Uh, yeah, they stayed up and uh the property that we owned. Okay

00:53:13 North um so that they didn't have to live like we were about to live and we lived in a tent for

00:53:19 Three to six months while we built

00:53:24 this property basically built a barn and a house and

00:53:28 Just me and him

00:53:31 and uh

00:53:34 Then they moved I mean once it was all ready

00:53:38 my mother and sisters moved um

00:53:41 which I don't resent him at all for that because

00:53:43 I mean, I I got most of my resilience

00:53:46 From those years I think of

00:53:50 Living down south we'll just say um

00:53:54 just from the hardship of

00:53:57 waking up in the mornings and working all day and

00:54:01 Of course that also had made me bond with my father a lot more as well. So maybe I I don't know I

00:54:08 Um, either what did he say? I mean, did he talk at all about what happened in the marriage? Yeah

00:54:14 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's

00:54:16 uh, he

00:54:18 He wouldn't give specifics about

00:54:20 Some things but he did

00:54:22 He he continually told me

00:54:24 Uh, he never

00:54:28 No, he he would tell me about what happened because I would ask because

00:54:32 Just me and him out in the middle of a swamp basically because he bought a piece of property. It was like a swamp

00:54:38 And please god just tell me what he said about the marriage. Oh, i'm so sorry. I'm

00:54:42 Trapped in a dickens paragraph here

00:54:44 We got i'm getting older. Please just tell me what he said about the marriage

00:54:49 He would tell me that um not to hate my mother

00:54:53 because it was

00:54:56 What he did was inexcusable

00:54:59 I heard those words, but I

00:55:05 I don't know

00:55:07 I I heard their fights

00:55:09 I don't think it's excusable. No, no, no. Nevermind. I should back that up. I don't I do believe what he said. I believe he believed

00:55:17 Uh, it was inexcusable and under no circumstances

00:55:20 If you get married

00:55:24 Should you ever and he said he knows that doesn't mean much to work from someone who just did that but

00:55:31 He said you can see

00:55:37 Oh, man

00:55:39 I'm, sorry, didn't didn't your father subscribe to thou shall not bear false witness

00:55:43 Uh, yeah. Yeah. So what's he what's he talking about?

00:55:47 I mean, is it not a betrayal if your wedding vows to pour hatred and scorn and contempt upon the father of your children?

00:55:55 Yeah

00:55:58 But isn't that a more serious break of the wedding vows than having sex with someone outside the marriage?

00:56:03 Yeah

00:56:05 That is true

00:56:07 But he's he's a martyr, right? He's like, oh it's me and it's inexcusable and yeah, right

00:56:11 So so he voluntarily gave up all of his authority

00:56:14 Because he stayed

00:56:17 In a relationship with a woman who held him in contempt

00:56:19 That's true. Okay, and and you my friend are in danger of repeating the exact same pattern

00:56:26 Oh, man, yeah, that's

00:56:30 Yeah

00:56:34 Okay, so how old were you when all of this was going on what was your age range when all of this

00:56:39 I think it was around

00:56:42 After that summer I enrolled in

00:56:49 Eighth grade, so I think you're 14, I think so 13 14 15 that kind of range

00:56:56 um 13 to 15 was whenever

00:57:00 Uh each year

00:57:05 And how long did the affair last uh only um

00:57:09 Uh, I believe it was only about a

00:57:13 a week of

00:57:16 Maybe two or three times that week

00:57:18 That he went over to

00:57:20 Well, and it was more than just an emotional affair I assume it was physical as well. Oh, yeah

00:57:26 Okay

00:57:31 And since then your mother's held all the power

00:57:34 In the relationship. Oh, yes

00:57:36 Continues to okay. Okay. So your mother's still a bully

00:57:40 Yeah, that's very your father your father models being bullied to his children

00:57:49 Yeah

00:57:52 Uh, yeah

00:57:53 So your mother does not practice the virtue called forgiveness

00:57:57 No

00:58:00 No, I yeah, no, okay and your your father enables this right? So what what's your father's story?

00:58:07 Like how is how is this a virtuous thing?

00:58:09 To allow yourself to be bullied in front of your children and thus poison them with

00:58:13 This toxicity like help me. Is it just like what I made about and it's like

00:58:18 Is it just he's just got these abstract rules that he just punished himself with or what? Ah,

00:58:23 Actually, I believe that's I think you hit the nail

00:58:27 on the head because I

00:58:30 Because he and I have talked, uh

00:58:32 About it and about how a man should act after I mean after all of this after I grew up even more and

00:58:40 He always returns to quoting scripture to me which well as a rule set

00:58:49 and

00:58:51 I think maybe

00:58:53 Maybe you're right about that. He

00:58:56 Well, I mean the marriage vows are very clear that you you don't put other people ahead of your spouse, right?

00:59:01 Right. Yes

00:59:03 and so if your mother is putting

00:59:05 Outsiders or church elders or whatever above her spouse and in fact insulting her spouse based upon other people's disapproval

00:59:14 She's cheating in a far worse way than having sex a couple of times in a week

00:59:20 Uh

00:59:24 So does he i'm trying to sort of figure this out

00:59:27 Why did he choose such a hysterical aggressive and bullying woman, why do you think that was I

00:59:37 I'm not sure I because

00:59:42 His mother is not that way

00:59:45 Um, how pretty is your mother or what's

00:59:52 She was yeah whenever she was younger well, yeah whenever she was younger she was uh

00:59:57 She was a good looking woman

01:00:01 Okay, and and is she would you say significantly or somewhat more attractive than your father physically

01:00:07 Oh, actually, no, no. He's a good looking guy, too

01:00:12 Yeah, that's that was always her complaint. No matter where we lived all growing up that all the women flocked to him

01:00:20 That was her complaint. Her complaint was that her husband was attractive

01:00:22 Oh my what a oh crossed bear poor poor jesus, you know, at least he wasn't saddled with an attractive wife my gosh

01:00:32 We better drag that cross get your crown of thorns, but my gosh

01:00:37 Having a pretty wife would just I mean that's that's too cruel for anyone

01:00:41 Yeah. Oh, oh

01:00:44 Oh, I see which

01:00:48 I was laughing and yeah

01:00:50 Okay, so so he can't be assertive and why can't he be assertive why can't your father be assertive

01:00:59 Why can't you say like so because going and having an affair is passive, right?

01:01:04 Right. Why can't you say you you absolutely?

01:01:08 Never talked to me in that tone. You made a vow before god himself

01:01:13 To put no others

01:01:15 Above me like you absolutely will never ever use that tone with me again. This is absolutely not a thing

01:01:21 That's possible have some piety

01:01:23 And now you need to ask for my forgiveness for using that tone with me

01:01:27 Oh, that's okay max with that whole thing right now he never actually went he did

01:01:34 He used to often

01:01:38 Tell her not to talk to him

01:01:41 in the way that she's talking to him in that, uh, whenever she can

01:01:45 Uh calm down then they can talk

01:01:49 and that worked for most well, no not most of my childhood, but that worked for about half of my childhood, but

01:01:58 I don't know what was different

01:02:01 Well, she realized that he had absolutes about staying marriage and married so that all of his uh,

01:02:11 Statements or you could say threats or ultimatums were meaningless

01:02:14 You know, okay, that's yeah. Okay. Let me I made a vow to stay married. So so then he has no leverage no power

01:02:22 Yeah, you know the restaurant doesn't need to improve their food if they know you're always going to come back no matter what

01:02:28 Yeah

01:02:32 Okay, that's that's that's some sort of deep uh deep backstory

01:02:40 And has your mother ever noticed that you've kept a distance from her since you were 14 years old

01:02:44 Oh, yeah. Yes. She comments on it

01:02:48 often

01:02:50 And does she take any responsibility for having attacked your father and you as the only other male in the family might take that a little

01:02:56 freaking personally

01:02:58 Absolutely not. No, I even confronted her

01:03:02 Oh my god, all right

01:03:08 So she is kind of abusive

01:03:10 She broke your father in two

01:03:13 She won't take any ownership about her relationship with you

01:03:16 She has no humility. No christian forgiveness. No self-knowledge. No virtue. No commitment to honesty or responsibility, right?

01:03:24 Right. Yeah. Okay. So help me understand the big plus of having her in your life

01:03:30 That

01:03:36 You could question

01:03:38 Let me put it another way

01:03:40 i'm sally

01:03:42 the hottest thing

01:03:44 since the ice since the iceland volcano

01:03:46 and i'm a strong and virtuous and humble and wise and

01:03:51 direct and honest and then I

01:03:54 Date you and you bring me over to meet my future possible mother-in-law

01:04:03 And I look and I say, hmm, I could be spending the next 30 or 40 years with this person in my life

01:04:08 Oh

01:04:11 Am I am I thrilled about that?

01:04:13 No, am I excited about that? Is that a big plus?

01:04:17 And then I look at you and you're like, oh, she's my mother man. I love her

01:04:21 Now what does sally what do what do I as sally think about that situation? How does that

01:04:30 How does that dangle in front of me like a big plus or a big like yikes?

01:04:33 And

01:04:37 Yeah, that would be this woman to be around raising my help me helping me raise my kids

01:04:42 right

01:04:44 Yeah, that's uh

01:04:46 In fact not who's in her life it's who's kept out of her life that matters

01:04:52 Right. What did your ex-wife think of your mother?

01:05:00 Well

01:05:02 Um

01:05:04 She was in fact how you just described sally

01:05:09 Would be very close to not that she was excited. Actually I should say she was

01:05:16 we didn't talk to my parents for the majority of my

01:05:20 uh being married because specifically

01:05:23 because of that, um

01:05:27 because she didn't like being around them and I I honestly

01:05:29 I only liked being around them because

01:05:33 Like being around my dad but

01:05:37 Uh, but she really didn't

01:05:42 But your dad models to you avoidance and surrender

01:05:47 Oh

01:05:53 Yeah

01:05:57 Yeah, okay, so

01:06:01 Is it fair to say that your ex-wife met some guy lied to you about it and then

01:06:07 Left you to pursue a relationship with him

01:06:10 Uh, yes, I believe so

01:06:12 And you don't have she didn't admit to that but that's what you're understanding. Um, actually actually she admitted

01:06:18 to

01:06:20 uh the

01:06:22 cheating she didn't

01:06:24 Say anything about going off to be with him, but I just kind of assumed

01:06:27 Oh, so she did admit that she was cheating on you with this

01:06:30 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, of course she knew the story that cheating didn't end

01:06:38 Your parents marriage cheating on both sides, right?

01:06:42 Yes

01:06:44 Okay. So why do you think that she?

01:06:47 Uh pursued this other guy or to put it another way how close was she to 30?

01:06:53 When she pursued this other guy

01:06:55 Ah, okay. She was uh 29

01:06:58 There you go. So so why why did she end up in a marriage with no children where you weren't pushing for kids?

01:07:05 Why did she end up going to get pregnant by another guy?

01:07:11 Yeah

01:07:15 Have you not seen jurassic park?

01:07:17 Life finds a way

01:07:21 Yeah, that's true

01:07:23 It's very true

01:07:26 Okay, yeah

01:07:29 I

01:07:31 I will admit relationship was going was going nowhere

01:07:34 Yeah, I mean your marriage was kind of going nowhere, right?

01:07:37 Like you weren't doing big charitable works in the community. You weren't having kids. You just you just

01:07:42 Groundhog day in your way through the decades, right?

01:07:45 Yeah, yeah, that's true

01:07:50 And were you being honest with her I mean about whether you wanted children or not were you deferring to her

01:07:56 Because you didn't want her to be upset

01:08:00 Were you I mean were you honest did you have and you know, maybe this was the case

01:08:05 maybe this I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

01:08:07 did you

01:08:08 Want kids but defer to her?

01:08:18 And you already told me this by the way just so you know, yeah, I did

01:08:21 It was a real stab in the heart when she told you how happy she was to be pregnant, right?

01:08:27 I did. Yeah. Oh, that's right. So that means that you wanted kids

01:08:31 I did. Yeah, you're right and I did defer to her though. That's

01:08:36 Which

01:08:40 Right, so you saw your father deferring to your mother and you deferred because that's what you do you defer to women, right?

01:08:45 That's that's the message, right?

01:08:47 You can't win. They'll just escalate. They'll leave you so there's no bond, right? Because isn't this your fundamental complaint with your

01:08:54 Ex-wife there's no bond

01:08:57 Right. Yeah, but what was the bond with your parents?

01:08:59 Other than bullying and compliance, so that's not a bond

01:09:06 That's true. That's how they still yeah

01:09:09 They still are

01:09:11 Well in this level of fighting, I mean you you can't

01:09:14 You can't fight with someone if you have a bond

01:09:17 You might have disagreements or whatever

01:09:19 But you can't fundamentally fight with someone in this contemptuous aggressive hysterical way if you actually have a bond with that person

01:09:26 right

01:09:29 I mean that that would be like punching yourself in the face a bond is we are one flesh

01:09:34 I would no more fight with you than I would shop in a

01:09:40 Toothbrush handle and stick it into my own chest

01:09:47 right

01:09:49 I've never fought. I mean i've been married 21 years. I've never

01:09:52 Raised my voice or fought with my wife in that way. We've had we have the occasional disagreements or whatever, right? But

01:09:58 It's always handled with respect and right like the idea of just screaming at her like I I literally would rather

01:10:05 Cut the tip of a phalanges off or something like that. I just it's not a not a thing, right?

01:10:11 So you had you have to

01:10:15 Defer to women they run the show

01:10:17 They're in charge you do what they want

01:10:20 And how did that work out

01:10:24 The way

01:10:31 Feels is she used me until she didn't need me anymore

01:10:34 And how did she use it? What did she use you for?

01:10:37 Oh emotional

01:10:40 or in financial

01:10:41 stability

01:10:43 Oh, I mean so you paid you paid a lot of bills while she was going through school and getting herself started

01:10:48 Oh, yeah, and she

01:10:51 the last couple years of our marriage, she actually made more money than me, but I

01:10:55 Oh, man, this is bad. I oh, no, please don't tell me she made more money than you but you were still paying more

01:11:02 Oh

01:11:04 Yeah

01:11:06 Yeah, that's what was going on

01:11:08 Right now if you'd have said listen, we're not having kids you're making good money

01:11:13 I paid the majority of bills for the first three quarters of our relationship

01:11:16 It's time for you to step up and at least pay half. It'd be nice actually to pay a little bit more, right?

01:11:20 Yes, you knew you knew that she wasn't bonded with you

01:11:24 Right because someone who's bonded with you won't wait for you to make that statement, right?

01:11:31 No, she won't

01:11:34 She won't like I notice I notice everything my wife does and it's a lot

01:11:39 I didn't just come with a pair of magic drawers that fills back up with underwear or whatever like my wife does a lot

01:11:45 in in the relationship

01:11:48 and

01:11:49 I notice everything and I appreciate everything and I try to

01:11:52 You know, I I do I do a lot too

01:11:54 So like I mean, I don't feel like like it's exploitive or whatever and she notices what I do

01:11:59 but if she had been doing a lot in one particular area, I would

01:12:03 Mention that point it out try and find ways to balance things out or whatever because the last thing i'd want to do is for

01:12:09 Her to feel that she's been taken advantage of in any way

01:12:11 So she would sit there and say she would feel that wow that generosity. She'd thank you all the time

01:12:17 Thank you for keeping us afloat while i'm doing the school stuff

01:12:19 And she would make a vow to you to herself to god to say listen when if I start making more money, man

01:12:24 I'm gonna give you a break

01:12:26 I mean that's bonding right that's taking care of the other person that's being sensitive and thoughtful towards the other person, right?

01:12:34 but she didn't do any of that she just

01:12:36 What's yours is mine? What's mine is mine, right?

01:12:38 Right. That's I mean she did eventually start paying some of it, but I think we had already well

01:12:43 I didn't know but I think she had already separated

01:12:46 in her mind from me

01:12:48 and so

01:12:49 She began paying the mortgage which was still less than half but of the different bill that we had

01:12:56 generally

01:12:57 Okay. So what what the virtues if she were on the?

01:13:00 Call here. What were the virtues that she would say she most loved and admired in you?

01:13:06 Um

01:13:08 The once well, yes, I have a really good example for that that because she talked to my little sister about it

01:13:15 about how

01:13:18 I shouldn't say blessed but how much she appreciated

01:13:21 How patient I I am with her and I don't know if that's a virtue anymore

01:13:27 And what would she say and I would say to her give me an example of his patience with you and what would she say

01:13:35 Whenever

01:13:37 Oh, she would she had a better memory than me, uh, she would

01:13:43 Say

01:13:47 Anytime that she's

01:13:51 Extremely frustrated which happened. I mean

01:13:53 it wasn't every week, but it happened fairly regularly bring home work stressed and

01:13:59 Be stressed out and frustrated with me

01:14:03 I

01:14:05 well, I guess I learned this from my dad I was

01:14:07 very

01:14:09 calm and patient

01:14:11 I didn't

01:14:12 Net back. I was so sorry. What would what would she do or say when she'd come home stressed and upset?

01:14:17 Would she would she call you names? Would she yell like what happened?

01:14:21 She would she never yelled in our entire marriage. She never yelled at me, but she um would come home

01:14:28 and it would be

01:14:32 um

01:14:33 walk in the door in a huff so to speak and

01:14:36 If I tried to give her a hug or anything, she it was don't touch me

01:14:41 I don't want to

01:14:43 uh

01:14:44 I don't want

01:14:46 content right now and

01:14:48 Then the entire night and into the next day usually

01:14:52 She would just be completely

01:14:55 Annoyed with every thing I do including I mean, I remember one specific time

01:15:02 She was annoyed whenever I was breathing one time and I don't want that to be an analogy for

01:15:07 Anything you got that right before being poisoned, right?

01:15:11 Okay, so she would say don't touch me kind of stay away from me

01:15:17 Yeah. Yeah, very and and on what?

01:15:20 uh grounds did she

01:15:23 do that, I mean because

01:15:25 Like you you couldn't provide any comfort to her. I mean surely a hug and a foot rub and listening to her

01:15:32 Problems would be a big a big help. So what what does that mean?

01:15:35 Like stay away from me you're breathing too loud or like what was her justification?

01:15:39 Did she genuinely believe you were being annoying or intrusive?

01:15:43 I don't think so. I think it was more she was transferring the stress of

01:15:52 And frustrations from work and her interpersonal uh work relationships with

01:16:00 Everyone at work. Um

01:16:02 Too I don't know what this means. Sorry

01:16:04 Oh what were her justifications as to why this was a sensible good course of action or did she say?

01:16:10 I've really got to work on my impatience. I've really got to work on my snappiness

01:16:15 I've really got to work on my hostility like stay away from me. Don't touch me for an entire night and morning is

01:16:20 Shockingly cold and and cool. Yeah

01:16:24 That okay, actually you say that and she would actually tell me that she needs to be alone

01:16:30 because she can't stand to be around anyone including me and

01:16:35 uh, okay

01:16:38 And if I and it was she she would actually afterwards say forgive me

01:16:43 Not during so I just felt the cold shoulder

01:16:46 but

01:16:48 Afterwards, but would she would she then try and fix it or or like?

01:16:51 She would yeah for the most part. She would try to repair

01:16:55 Did she knew no, no prevent the behavior from recurring?

01:16:58 Like did she get to the root as to why she wants to be alone when she's upset?

01:17:02 And figure it out and and deal with it and reverse it

01:17:06 No, and

01:17:09 No, she never really did. She never told me and I asked but she

01:17:14 I maybe I asked at the wrong time. I don't know. It's that no, no, stop stop man. Stop despining yourself. Oh god

01:17:21 That's gross

01:17:23 It's gross. Maybe I didn't ask at the right time. No

01:17:25 You can ask whenever you want

01:17:28 I mean if human beings that you live with women, they're not bombs to be diffused

01:17:33 And if you get it wrong and lose an arm, that's your that's your fault

01:17:36 You should have cut the red wire not the blue wire

01:17:38 You can ask why are you being so cold? You can ask I don't even say I don't like it when you

01:17:42 Are hostile towards me because of what happens at work. That's unfair. That's wrong. That's not right

01:17:50 Right, right

01:17:51 You you have you you have the perfect right to assert everything that you want now

01:17:55 That doesn't mean other people have to do it

01:17:56 but you have the perfect right to assert everything you want and

01:17:58 In the relationship like I mean have you let me ask you this have you experienced it as rude when i've expressed?

01:18:05 Some exasperation at you not answering questions or giving me conclusions rather than facts

01:18:09 No, not at all. No, I mean it's not i'm expressing a preference and I hope that you will

01:18:15 um go along with my preference you don't have to right but

01:18:19 I mean i'm i'm asserting what I want to need

01:18:21 Just in this conversation. It's not it's not rude or negative

01:18:24 In fact, I hope you understand it comes from a place of really really really trying to help

01:18:28 Yeah, I do. I really do

01:18:31 Okay, so the idea that you're just not asking in the right way

01:18:35 I mean this is tone bullshit frank

01:18:38 Yeah, you know, it's like it's not what you said. It's how you said it. It's like nope. I don't I don't care

01:18:43 I'm, not tone policing myself

01:18:46 So that I can pick some lock that you've created between us

01:18:49 I'm not going to give you the excuse of tone policing because tone policing is just a way of saying shut up

01:18:57 I don't want to hear

01:18:59 I'm not going to deal with you. It's like well, no you're married you have to deal with each other

01:19:02 I mean, it's not an option to not deal with each other or tone

01:19:05 being the tone police or the tone nazi or whatever that's

01:19:08 Uh, that's no good. So this is when you say well, maybe I didn't ask her at the right time and it's like no no

01:19:14 No, this is not

01:19:16 This is not some

01:19:19 Mario times jumping game where you have to get all the right button mashing sequences in order to get through to the truth

01:19:25 She owes you the truth. Okay. So

01:19:28 When did she first when did this coldness or this distance or this hostility first emerge in the relationship?

01:19:33 it was about

01:19:37 I I had actually thought about this quite a bit when the coldness started it was I think it was about

01:19:44 two years after we were married, so

01:19:46 um

01:19:49 Really? I mean, i'm so this is like what five years after you four years after you met

01:19:53 So for four years, even though you lived together before you got married for four years for close to half a decade

01:19:59 She didn't have this

01:20:02 I want to be alone this hostility didn't have any of this dysfunction

01:20:06 and then it just

01:20:08 Came out. Yeah. Yeah, it just it

01:20:12 Yeah, it did and

01:20:14 I don't know if it's

01:20:17 It was whenever she started and okay

01:20:21 It's whenever she and her best friend which we kind of lived nearby

01:20:27 Kind of stopped talking to each other and she started

01:20:31 uh, she got a new best friend and I mean, I mean over a span of months, of course and

01:20:38 um

01:20:40 female friend

01:20:42 at work

01:20:43 uh, who was

01:20:45 If you stood the two side by side you could tell which one was

01:20:49 Uh had their life together and which one didn't and it wasn't her new best friend

01:20:53 um

01:20:55 Which I I did express

01:20:57 More than once. Um my concern about

01:21:03 I don't know if I should I know I shouldn't oh, she got a messed up best friend

01:21:07 He was pouring a bunch of poison in her ear, right? Oh my yes, I

01:21:12 Okay, so so then you know, you have to say no this you have to choose me

01:21:15 Like you have to choose me like you made a vow to me not to some randiwood work

01:21:21 Yeah. Yeah, and instead I

01:21:24 You express some concern then you let it go, right?

01:21:29 Yeah, I did I did

01:21:31 Exactly

01:21:33 Now, of course the problem is not the best friend. The problem is your wife

01:21:37 Because if the best friend starts pouring poison into her ear

01:21:41 Uh, particularly about you, what should your wife do?

01:21:44 She should yeah, she could divorce her best friend basically. Yeah, like i'm not no I don't I don't participate in these kinds of conversations

01:21:52 Yeah, no, no, my my husband is wonderful. I love him to death and i'm sorry that you don't have that but no i'm not

01:21:59 I'm, not doing that

01:22:00 Oh and up until that point that's actually

01:22:03 What I expected because I had seen her do that to other people

01:22:07 like tell them these things and

01:22:10 man

01:22:12 You know how good that makes a person feel

01:22:15 So

01:22:20 Whenever they say don't talk about

01:22:24 I am not usually this much of a cry

01:22:34 but

01:22:37 Whenever they say don't whenever she told somebody

01:22:40 Like maybe a year in there was some guy that I had gone to the bathroom or something and as I was coming back

01:22:46 Apparently he had said something about me

01:22:49 and she

01:22:51 Stood up and told him

01:22:53 You don't talk about

01:22:55 Him like that

01:22:57 And

01:23:00 Like

01:23:04 A feeling that gets you

01:23:06 No, I get that but it was unsustainable. So the big question is what abstract what abstract morals was she committed to?

01:23:12 In other words, what could you call her out on and she would have to surrender?

01:23:17 Right. So so for your mother, I mean if I were in your dad's shoes heaven help me if if your mother, right?

01:23:25 Then you'd have to say. Um

01:23:28 no, you you can't speak to me like that because

01:23:32 We made a vow to god to love to honor to obey right so

01:23:36 And and even if you know, yeah, I have the affair make the mistake, you know, I I have apologized I have um

01:23:43 I have begged for forgiveness and you have to forgive me now like that's the I've earned forgiveness

01:23:47 And so you you have to forgive me and and now of course if she's a real christian she'd say well, yeah, I I do

01:23:53 Right. Okay, I do

01:23:56 So so what abstract virtues?

01:24:00 Did your ex-wife manifest that you could if she deviated from those you could call her out on it?

01:24:07 And she would have to change her mind like I mean you can think of things like I say i'm an empiricist, right?

01:24:14 So if somebody provides me empirical information, like I had some skepticism about snaggle teeth coming from soft chewing

01:24:21 And and so on and I looked it up and lo and behold, there's a lot of scientific evidence

01:24:27 So I admitted that uh on the next show and you know when I got something wrong about the movie joker

01:24:33 um

01:24:35 And I went to watch it again and I said, yep

01:24:37 You're absolutely right because i'm an empiricist

01:24:38 So when people say look the evidence goes against what you're saying and they provide me the evidence

01:24:42 I have to conform obviously, right? I mean that's that so I mean there's one of a million standards that people can

01:24:48 Hold me too. So what standards?

01:24:51 Did your

01:24:54 ex-wife have

01:24:56 That you could hold her to and she would have to submit to not to you but to the standards

01:25:00 uh to standards it

01:25:03 she was

01:25:05 Also, um

01:25:08 Maybe this is why I

01:25:13 thought

01:25:15 Honestly as a virtue, but she

01:25:17 She at least gave lip service to

01:25:20 No, no

01:25:21 I mean everyone gives who cares about lip service, right?

01:25:23 But what were the standards where she could be?

01:25:26 In some emotional state and you could say

01:25:29 Right. No

01:25:32 Like like when she's distant right and and you say what's going on

01:25:36 And she says nothing and you say no no, no, look, I know something's going on

01:25:40 We did promise to tell each other the truth

01:25:43 Please sit down and tell me the truth and she'd say okay. Well, I have to conform to these these abstract values

01:25:49 Okay, I have I have like the could you ever reference the vows that you made or whatever it is, right?

01:25:53 Yes, like what what could you do that would alter her behavior by appealing to a pencil?

01:25:58 That um, in fact, it's what you just said if I

01:26:02 If I laid out

01:26:05 I had to be fairly structured about it. But if I laid out say told her our vows and told her what we promised each other

01:26:14 then that would

01:26:16 That could sometimes sometimes it would um, I didn't do it. No. No, sometimes it's not a principle

01:26:22 Sometimes it's not a principle

01:26:25 What abstract hang on what abstract principles?

01:26:28 Did she surrender her will and autonomy to and could be called on?

01:26:34 And would change her behavior consistently now that doesn't mean perfectly, you know

01:26:38 Maybe one in 20 times or one in 10 times, maybe there's a hiccup or whatever, but that's what she aims for, right?

01:26:43 Oh

01:26:45 Well, I mean she didn't have the abstract principle called loyalty right because she was getting trashed or by a friend, right

01:26:58 She didn't have the abstract virtue called integrity or honesty because she cheated right

01:27:07 So what were the abstract

01:27:10 virtues

01:27:12 that she manifested

01:27:14 That was self-generated now occasionally we'll need reminders

01:27:18 of our

01:27:20 Virtues, but for the most part particularly by the time you get into your mid to late 20s

01:27:25 I mean you should have that kind of stuff down right? I mean you should kind of yeah, right

01:27:28 So, you know, I I respect property rights, you know

01:27:32 So if I if I say, uh, I want to go and steal that kid's bicycle

01:27:37 I'm just gonna say wait a minute. That's a violation of property rights. Oh, yeah, right. Okay, right. So what were her

01:27:44 Virtues that were self-generated that she had an obligation to conform to

01:27:49 well

01:27:52 I don't see because the the things right off the top of my head are not virtues. It's

01:28:01 She conformed to

01:28:07 Uh, what you call it pure pressure

01:28:09 Generally, but and by that I don't mean like that's the opposite of a virtue but okay

01:28:15 Yeah, it is the opposite but i'm trying to think of I thought maybe if I said that out loud it would

01:28:20 trigger

01:28:22 something and

01:28:24 Okay, so let's cut to the chase right there were no abstract virtues that she was committed to

01:28:28 Okay, so so you didn't choose her for her virtues which is why you couldn't think of one before right

01:28:37 So you chose a woman because she was pretty

01:28:39 And sexy and available and attracted to you you you chose her for

01:28:45 kind of base animalistic reasons

01:28:48 You didn't choose her for her virtues and lo and behold she turned out to not be virtuous, right

01:28:55 So, yeah, fundamentally you chose her and listen brother we've all been there

01:29:02 This is not i'm not preaching from any high pillar here. We've all been there

01:29:06 But you lie to yourself about why she was in your life

01:29:09 You told yourself it was because of her virtues or her kindness or her sweetness or her this or her support

01:29:14 No, it's because she was pretty unavailable and liked you

01:29:16 And it's it's the self-deception that gets us you you think you've been betrayed

01:29:25 But you can't be betrayed unless you betray yourself first

01:29:30 And unfortunately, you didn't have people in your life

01:29:33 Who could tell you the truth or they chose not to tell you the truth?

01:29:39 I mean, what do you what are your sisters and your mother gonna say? She seems a little unstable. Yeah, right. Yeah

01:29:44 What's your dad gonna say? Well

01:29:47 I'm gonna defer to you so you can defer to her because I defer to everyone

01:29:53 Oh

01:29:58 I'm, not laughing because it well, don't ask me to make a decision that goes against the cult of submission

01:30:04 So no one and then you know, you don't you don't call me right because

01:30:10 right and

01:30:12 I regret that more than

01:30:14 Anything. Well now you could at least you're calling me now, right? At least you're calling me. Yeah

01:30:18 A little bit late. Well, no, actually I guess no. No, it's not too late. No, no

01:30:23 You are you haven't taken custody of another man's child

01:30:26 Yeah

01:30:28 Yeah, that's true. Okay. So why why is your ex and her boy toy? Why why are they not together what happened?

01:30:36 uh

01:30:38 From when I what she told me

01:30:40 It's kind of ironic is

01:30:45 He doesn't really know he just left after she gave birth and how poetic

01:30:51 Yeah, that's so after she gave birth. He ghosted her

01:30:56 Uh, basically, I think they are communicating enough where he can come get his things from her house

01:31:02 But wait, wait, so so she left you for this guy, right more or less. Oh, no. Yeah

01:31:09 Trick out about this part. She left you for this guy

01:31:13 And then he ghosted her

01:31:16 Oh, yeah. Yeah

01:31:18 Now how old is the kid now?

01:31:20 Uh, just a few months I think october was the first

01:31:25 Okay, and who's raising the child is she on mat leave

01:31:29 um

01:31:31 Yeah right now she is actually good. Yeah right now

01:31:33 And is there any plan to get child support or anything from the guy or I guess he's he's gone, right?

01:31:41 Uh, he's gone. She

01:31:44 She didn't say I just I'd be honest. She didn't say I

01:31:52 Knowing her ago. I don't think so. I don't think she'll okay. So what is it?

01:31:57 What what are the what are the impulses that you have?

01:32:00 is to go and rescue her again and to raise another man's child and

01:32:04 You know

01:32:07 after this conversation

01:32:09 so far

01:32:11 Those impulses are starting to tie down pretty hard. So

01:32:14 but that was my initial impulse was she

01:32:21 The text message she sent about it it was

01:32:23 She said she was in the darkest place she's ever been

01:32:28 and

01:32:30 I mean it was basically

01:32:32 I don't know if it was fabricated, but it was a transfer help and my instant reaction. Well, hang on

01:32:37 So she said she's in the darkest place she's ever been

01:32:40 yeah

01:32:42 and

01:32:43 What else I mean did she indicate that she wants you to?

01:32:46 Do something or is that kind of implicit?

01:32:50 um, she didn't

01:32:52 directly indicate it but I

01:32:54 I think it was implicit that it

01:32:57 Yeah, I believe it was. Um, in fact

01:33:00 I've got my phone right here. I can tell you

01:33:04 Yeah

01:33:07 Sorry, I mean no, it's fine

01:33:10 Sometimes I don't know if I can even think wait

01:33:19 Oh

01:33:21 Oh, um

01:33:29 Hold on i'm gonna go back one more

01:33:31 I have a lot of I wish thought this is her

01:33:34 But i've been trying not to think of those thoughts. I wish I had more words of wisdom

01:33:39 I just

01:33:42 Oh, no, i'm, sorry, that's also

01:33:45 that was just a

01:33:48 I mean, okay. I'm not gonna go through all that. She she didn't there's a lot of III there

01:33:53 Yeah, that's

01:33:56 uh

01:33:58 She basically said that she regrets

01:34:00 Um

01:34:04 The evil that she has visited upon the world

01:34:07 She regrets the evil she has visited upon the world

01:34:11 Because of what she did to me

01:34:14 Wait, wait, wait, has she apologized to you for breaking your heart?

01:34:18 She did. Yeah

01:34:21 And what did she say?

01:34:23 She said that

01:34:26 Um, she knows that it's not forgivable and I

01:34:32 Of course i'm the one that will forgive whatever but she says not forgive more and she can't

01:34:41 uh

01:34:45 Uh, sorry

01:34:47 Whenever she told me that she cheated on me

01:34:50 she was

01:34:52 Telling me that we need to separate

01:34:54 Because what she did is not forgivable

01:34:57 and I tried to talk her out of it then and there but she

01:35:00 Told me that she was sorry

01:35:03 And she i'm sorry, but she was leaving you to be with this guy, right?

01:35:07 Uh, well at that time it wasn't to be with him. It was just to get away from me

01:35:13 And I had a way. Sorry. How do you how do you know?

01:35:16 uh

01:35:18 Oh, oh

01:35:20 Uh, because she said so no because we I we actually did say but just not to me. Um

01:35:28 We shared uh email accounts and by default or by extension

01:35:36 um

01:35:39 I had access to oh man. This is not a good thing to admit, but I had access to her text messages would show up

01:35:47 On our computer on the computer the family computer so to speak and uh

01:35:54 So I of course

01:35:57 Read them and so she was telling her best friend the one that was not so savory

01:36:02 That she needs to stay with her

01:36:05 Because she can't

01:36:07 She's having a hard time living with what she has done

01:36:13 And

01:36:17 I told well and what ended up happening though was I left instead and I told her to stay in the house

01:36:23 and oh, this is gonna sound like a bad decision, but I went and

01:36:27 Stayed in my sister my older sister's basement for a while

01:36:31 until uh, she finally decided to

01:36:36 We were getting divorced

01:36:38 Sorry, i'm i'm

01:36:40 If we're going to go into the time frame of the cheating

01:36:42 I don't like you're really fast forwarding and stopping at a variety of places here that don't make any sense to me

01:36:48 Okay. Uh, okay. So so let's just we're just wondering so did she tell you what did you find out?

01:36:54 No, she told me

01:36:57 And what did she say? She said i'm sleeping with another guy

01:37:00 Uh, she said she

01:37:03 cheated on me

01:37:05 um

01:37:06 And that she can't

01:37:08 We're not gonna work out me and her

01:37:11 Because she can't live with that. Like she can't live with what she's done

01:37:16 and

01:37:18 Be still about me

01:37:20 Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was yeah, I mean I I don't feel I this I that right?

01:37:25 Okay, so she's lying about all that she just wants to go and be with the other guy

01:37:31 Right, yeah, and that's okay. So hang on so she tells you she's cheating on you

01:37:35 and she says at the same time that she wants to

01:37:39 divorce, right

01:37:41 Right, okay

01:37:44 And then

01:37:47 Does she um, there's no negotiation about that is that right? Oh, no, no. Yeah, no negotiation that that's what broke me was

01:37:55 We always did actually I mean, well

01:37:59 Okay, never mind. I won't go into that. Okay, so there's no negotiation

01:38:02 And then like I assume you're sleeping in separate rooms or separate beds and then how long until she moves out

01:38:08 um, oh

01:38:11 This is the part, uh, no you moved out you moved out. I moved out. Yeah, that's and now why did why did she move out?

01:38:18 Um, why is her shit not all over the front lawn help me understand oh man

01:38:23 That's

01:38:27 Something I won't live down. I don't

01:38:29 because I

01:38:31 Believed her whenever even though now I know I believed her whenever she said we just need space

01:38:36 Wait, wait, sorry

01:38:39 Did she say she wants a divorce or did she say you just need space to repair like I don't understand

01:38:44 She said we're not working out and I asked her I guess I didn't include my side of the conversation. Um, I asked her

01:38:50 What do you mean you want a divorce and she said she didn't know

01:38:54 and

01:38:57 Like now I know me she did know but

01:38:59 She said let's take a month apart

01:39:03 And uh, then we will come back together and decide

01:39:08 um

01:39:11 So she's jimmy she's running the she's running the whole show here, right? Yeah, she was running the whole show

01:39:17 And what did you want to do want

01:39:21 I

01:39:23 Wanted her to accept my forgiveness

01:39:31 I'm sorry. Say again this day

01:39:35 I'm, sorry

01:39:37 I wanted her to accept my forgiveness

01:39:39 And we don't separate

01:39:42 Uh

01:39:45 I didn't see it as something that we couldn't get over

01:39:49 But

01:39:50 Or get past or you know works through

01:39:52 and

01:39:54 Sorry, what what does it mean to to work through like what does she do to earn your forgiveness?

01:39:58 Oh

01:40:01 well

01:40:03 I mean

01:40:04 Biblically, I I you were christian. You're a christian, right? No. No, i'm not. Okay. You were raised that way though, right?

01:40:10 I was right. Of course. Yeah father's a pastor. Yeah, it's like i'm psychic

01:40:15 Um, okay, but but you do you do accept that people do need to earn forgiveness, right? Oh, yeah

01:40:20 Yeah. Okay. So what did she do to earn your forgiveness?

01:40:24 nothing, I

01:40:27 I understand but what does it mean to say?

01:40:29 That I wanted her to accept my forgiveness like you're chasing her trying to get her to do something when she wronged you this bad

01:40:36 Yeah, I guess I was

01:40:44 But oh man

01:40:46 True so I mean look maybe this is a modern thing, right? But it seems to me like you just

01:40:53 You just don't have any power

01:40:56 no, no authority no power like all you can do is is beg and plead and cross your fingers and hope and

01:41:03 pray and right

01:41:06 Why why why why do you have no

01:41:13 Power or authority or

01:41:15 I think

01:41:18 What was modeled I guess I I

01:41:21 Was modeled for me growing up so

01:41:25 I just

01:41:32 It's easy to not have power. No, it's not because it was modeled. I mean was was hitting children modeled for me growing up

01:41:40 No

01:41:42 It's because I don't know I don't know I don't know how blunt I should be here to be honest. Oh, I don't know you can

01:41:48 You can

01:41:54 Whatever

01:41:59 You can be as blunt as you want because no, no, it's it's you you have to make that decision

01:42:04 Because it's gonna hurt a little

01:42:07 Okay

01:42:08 um

01:42:10 Go ahead. I'll

01:42:11 It's not because okay. It's not because of what was modeled

01:42:14 It's because you got sucked into your dad's noble world of self-pity and you can't criticize what was modeled

01:42:20 But your dad cucks to your mom

01:42:24 And because you're close to your dad and and you you worship your dad and you can't criticize that so it's not because

01:42:30 It was modeled to you. It's because you

01:42:32 Won't criticize it

01:42:35 Right. You won't save your dad. How dare you?

01:42:39 Raise me and our siblings my siblings

01:42:41 In this cucked spineless defer to everything have no authority anti-biblical worldview and you still call yourself a preacher

01:42:50 You are supposed to be the head of the household

01:42:55 How dare you give up the ghost and then play victim to me

01:43:02 How dare you give up any semblance of leadership in this family

01:43:09 And demand that I go along with this

01:43:12 How dare you not encourage me to exercise any authority in my relationships because you're just too damn scared to exercise them in your relationships

01:43:22 It's not because of what was modeled it's because you haven't criticized what was modeled

01:43:37 I can

01:43:39 Yeah

01:43:45 I can see that clearly. Oh

01:43:51 He gave up the ghost he gave up the leadership

01:43:57 What's really messed up is like deep down inside

01:44:01 I think I already know that

01:44:06 but

01:44:08 And because things are so out of whack in your family you can't get any good advice

01:44:20 It's hard to have nobody yes it is. Yes it is

01:44:34 I think that's why I held on to her so tightly

01:44:39 Because I already knew pretty knew that my dad's I already knew I just

01:44:54 Oh man

01:44:59 It's just it's just hard

01:45:03 Because I know that's insane

01:45:05 I moved away from the town that she's in now and

01:45:09 I didn't we didn't get there yet as a timeline, but

01:45:12 Uh, I moved away

01:45:16 To a town where I know nobody

01:45:18 Nothing and i'm far enough away

01:45:23 This one i'm far enough away from everyone that I know but don't respect

01:45:33 Me that I don't have to be around them. I still have this mythology in my head

01:45:40 Yeah

01:45:48 Listen, this is what I want you to really get is that

01:45:50 No disaster in your life is ever singular. It's never just you it's never just her

01:45:57 It's a community

01:45:59 Like we're social animals

01:46:02 We're social animals

01:46:04 which means

01:46:06 We you know, our eyes are in the front of our head. We can't see behind us. We need people

01:46:10 To check us. We need people to review us. We need people to tell us the truth. We need people to watch our backs

01:46:15 Everything that happened to you happened with the full participation of everyone around you

01:46:23 Everyone around you is involved

01:46:29 In your disasters

01:46:31 And and what happens though is we we kind of go all singular we get all

01:46:36 individualistic when we get wounded and we're like well I this and I should have done that and I asked her at the wrong time and

01:46:42 You know, we just have regrets and we just it's like no no, no

01:46:46 People gotta watch their backs

01:46:50 Everyone in your life

01:46:54 Friends immediate family extended family everyone in your life who claims to care about you is intimately wrapped up

01:47:01 In this mess and they are responsible as well

01:47:05 And in fact in many ways

01:47:08 They're more responsible

01:47:10 You know like if you and I go hunting for boar and we're back to back and you're supposed to be

01:47:15 Watching to see if a boar attacks us from behind and then a boar more mauls us

01:47:19 Because you were on your phone

01:47:22 Is that my fault?

01:47:24 No

01:47:25 Well, it's my fault. I guess if I keep wearing boar hunting with you, you keep getting my legs gouged

01:47:30 But people have got to watch your back

01:47:33 Yeah

01:47:38 It's everyone's fault that this happened

01:47:42 And yeah, you've got a right to be frustrated but yourself I get all of that

01:47:46 But everyone knows like do you know why male sexual desire has gotten so high?

01:47:54 Right male sexual desire is is it you know, it's a crazy force of nature, right?

01:47:57 So male sexual desire the only reason that male sexual desire

01:48:01 has been

01:48:03 Allowed evolutionarily speaking to grow so high

01:48:05 It's because we're supposed to have a whole bunch of people around us who are going to punch us in the nads

01:48:10 If we're heading in the wrong direction

01:48:13 Yeah

01:48:16 Like disable us

01:48:19 Right. Well, that would do it take us away

01:48:23 Take us away

01:48:25 Oh and nobody did that

01:48:29 No

01:48:32 Not or you were absolutely isolated

01:48:34 And you didn't even have the unifying

01:48:37 fabric of principles between you and your ex

01:48:41 You chose her out of need

01:48:50 And you stayed with her out of blindness and it turns out you chose her out of need and a lack of commitment to virtue

01:48:55 turns out

01:48:58 That she when she needed someone else more

01:49:01 She went there

01:49:04 But you went with her out of virtue

01:49:06 You were with her out of desire and need

01:49:09 But then when some other guy decided or needed her more she just goes with that

01:49:15 But that's the danger of that kind of principle. You can't trust anyone who's not in your life because of principles

01:49:21 Because

01:49:25 What are they making their decisions on whim?

01:49:27 Peer pressure some oh your wife happens to meet some new friend. Some new friend has some malign influence

01:49:33 Oh, she happens to meet some guy who thinks she's super hot. Well, she'll just gravitate towards that

01:49:37 Right. Yeah

01:49:39 Yeah, and

01:49:43 I imagine she grabbed it that new friend

01:49:46 for a reason

01:49:49 Well, who knows?

01:49:51 Who knows but you know her friend her friend probably latched onto her

01:49:54 Because her friend wanted to do some damage and saw someone happy or relatively happy

01:49:59 Oh, yeah

01:50:01 So yeah, yeah her friend but her friend is like no you gotta come for lunch with me

01:50:04 And you're like, oh you've got to date me

01:50:07 No, you've got to marry me

01:50:09 Yeah

01:50:12 And your mom is like no you gotta come spend time with me and everyone's just bouncing around

01:50:15 off other people's needs

01:50:18 And and your your mom with the church elders is being bullied by them in order to bully your dad, right?

01:50:24 They're sowing the seeds of discontent and hostility and she cheats on your dad with them emotionally

01:50:29 And then your dad cheats at least that was years

01:50:31 I assume that that went on for years

01:50:33 Suppose your dad only cheated a couple of times with some other woman and then he gets all in the rain

01:50:37 Of fire and he can't stand up for himself, right?

01:50:40 That's true. Yeah

01:50:42 In in in every relationship like okay, so you make you're 100% responsible for what you do in a relationship

01:50:51 But nothing in the relationship is 100% your fault

01:50:53 Right

01:50:57 Your father encouraged your mother's bullying by submitting to her aggression

01:51:09 And that's not loving no that's not caring

01:51:12 I think and a child knows that if I knew that then

01:51:19 Yes, you did

01:51:21 It's also not loving for your mother to traumatize her children seriously traumatize her children

01:51:27 by

01:51:29 viciously

01:51:31 Bullying and verbally abusing your father

01:51:36 That's horrible and selfish and vicious

01:51:38 Right

01:51:43 Yeah very much

01:51:45 Now

01:51:50 What do you need

01:51:52 From

01:51:54 a partner well

01:51:56 When she didn't need you she left now, she needs you and she's half inviting you back but

01:52:02 without taking full responsibility

01:52:06 For betraying

01:52:08 But you also betrayed her by pretending she had all these virtues because she was hot and available

01:52:14 Right, yeah

01:52:18 So you need to just commit to abstract standards of virtue and demand that of others everyone everyone

01:52:25 Yeah

01:52:28 Everyone

01:52:29 Who's not everyone who's in your life? Who's not virtuous?

01:52:33 Is working for your destruction?

01:52:35 Everybody in your life who's not at least hot-footing it after the angels is consorting with devils

01:52:43 I'm sorry to sound like your dad. I know that's no no

01:52:48 I'll tell you what though. What no no, um, like what happens though like

01:52:54 You cut

01:53:00 Man you cut the non-virtuous people out

01:53:04 Wouldn't

01:53:08 I'll just live in my apartment alone at that point because

01:53:11 I mean i'd have to go out and find somebody obviously I find people that are virtuous but I man I look around

01:53:19 the landscape and

01:53:22 I meet people all the time. That was one thing that I was taught as a child to

01:53:28 not be afraid to talk to everybody and

01:53:30 I

01:53:33 But I don't know if i've met

01:53:35 Very many people that have very many virtues at least not where I live. I didn't well, come on, man

01:53:41 I don't know how intelligent someone is who speaks japanese if I don't speak japanese

01:53:46 So if you're not manifesting these virtues, how are you supposed to find these virtuous people?

01:53:51 How are they supposed to find you you look like everyone else?

01:53:53 Oh, yeah, that's right, man

01:53:57 That's right, I remember I remember

01:54:00 Hearing you say this before I forgot

01:54:04 I I as you probably could tell I jump ahead in my mind to think too fast sometimes but

01:54:11 I try to jump to the end

01:54:14 rather than

01:54:16 And i've been trying to work on that as well, but

01:54:18 So regarding your ex yes

01:54:24 Pros

01:54:26 Pros and cons now there are pros of getting back together with her

01:54:32 Oh

01:54:35 I mean, you're not crazy. There are pros

01:54:37 Yeah

01:54:40 There are I mean you get to rescue the time investment you have in the relationship

01:54:44 Oh, yeah, you might get to have you might get to have kids with her now that that ice has been broken

01:54:50 So to speak maybe she'll want to have

01:54:52 uh kids

01:54:53 You'll deal with loneliness isolation. You'll have a sex life again, at least after she gets after whatever postpartum she's going through or whatever's happening

01:55:00 for her

01:55:03 So, I mean let's not kid ourselves there are some some real pluses right yeah, yeah, but

01:55:09 Man after after we've talked I this pluses aren't sounding as

01:55:17 Appetizing, uh, or as that was bad word to use. Um

01:55:24 It's not fine. It's fine. I get I get what you're saying

01:55:26 Now, what are the what are the major things that have made getting back to you with her less appealing?

01:55:32 Well, whenever you ask me what virtues did she have and I had this whole thought in my head, I mean

01:55:39 I had this mythology in my head that I realized after you asked that

01:55:43 Wasn't true

01:55:46 And that's why I was stuttering and stammering about it because I

01:55:50 I don't know

01:55:52 if she has

01:55:54 Any virtues that's I don't

01:55:57 Now she might have learned some through this process, I mean sometimes yeah when when people really

01:56:05 Baff up their lives. They can get a certain amount of humility

01:56:09 Out of that and a certain amount of virtue out of that that can happen that can happen. Yeah

01:56:14 That can happen but it doesn't sound like she's there

01:56:17 I think I think she still has the vanity that she's simply like

01:56:22 For me at least for me like you just you just have to surrender your will and your ego and your vanity

01:56:27 to

01:56:29 Virtues like to objective virtues. I mean she knows deep down. She did you wrong?

01:56:33 She betrayed you and she completely faffed up her life

01:56:37 Yeah, right because now she has a kid

01:56:40 She's depressed

01:56:43 As she says she's in the darkest place in her life

01:56:45 And she left a guy

01:56:47 Who really worshipped her?

01:56:49 to have a kid

01:56:51 with a guy

01:56:52 Who's ghosted her?

01:56:54 I mean that that really is about

01:56:57 And she did she hit 30 yet?

01:57:00 Uh, yeah, yeah, so now she's she's in her 30s and a single mom

01:57:05 Yeah, well, it's not not a year ago. She was the beloved wife of a loyal guy

01:57:09 Yeah

01:57:12 Right, like you couldn't have a more accelerated fall from grace if you took a tesla rocket and pointed it at the center of the earth

01:57:20 So

01:57:22 Maybe something like that could give someone real humility and say holy crap. Do I ever not trust myself?

01:57:28 Jesus take the wheel

01:57:31 I'm clearly making terrible decisions. I have to figure out why i'm messing things up so badly

01:57:36 But it doesn't sound it sounds like she's just taking your father's route of self-pity

01:57:41 Yeah

01:57:43 I'm so sad. I can't believe how much i've hurt you. I can't this i'm so it's so terrible

01:57:48 Oh, but I I it's just it's just more

01:57:51 Narcissistic self-pity in my amateur and humble opinion

01:57:55 Yeah, I don't know about amateur but yeah, that's

01:57:59 I I think you're I mean now that you've laid out

01:58:04 Why I couldn't think of these things before

01:58:07 Well, no, that's listen. Nobody. No, no, nobody can nobody can nobody can any more than we can see out the back of our heads

01:58:15 Okay. Yeah, that's true

01:58:18 No, nobody can you you can't I can't see these things in my life. You can I mean you need the 360 view

01:58:22 That's why with social animals, you know

01:58:24 The only reason why our eyes are in the front of our head is we have people to watch our backs

01:58:28 And seriously, I bet this is the only reason

01:58:30 Their eyes are in the front. There's a reason why we don't have like

01:58:33 the non-social creatures often have eyes

01:58:37 Like the lizards and all this sort of like they have eyes on the sides of their head because they don't have anybody watching

01:58:41 their backs

01:58:43 Yeah

01:58:47 So we we've developed blind spots because other people are watching our blind spots

01:58:52 So we can really focus on stuff and ignore a whole bunch of stuff because other people will point it out

01:58:57 Right

01:59:01 So you don't have those you don't have that safety net you don't have those people watching your back so

01:59:09 And neither does

01:59:11 Neither does your ex

01:59:13 Right

01:59:15 now i'm obviously bungeeing in here a little bit trying to watch your back and all of that but

01:59:18 As far as getting to back getting back together with your ex

01:59:22 Has she

01:59:27 Has she groveled in sorrow at what she did to you or is she just so upset that you feel the urge to comfort her?

01:59:34 uh

01:59:36 The latter she's I think it's more she's so upset that

01:59:41 She feel

01:59:42 The or I mean, I feel the urge to comfort her. Um, yeah

01:59:46 Like everybody who's been around a selfish person has gone through this experience where?

01:59:50 They upset you

01:59:52 And then you point it out and they collapse in on themselves and you end up comforting them

01:59:56 It's really it's a really manipulative shitty thing to do to someone

01:59:59 You know like you've heard these these role plays or whatever, right?

02:00:03 Mom, you did this and that wrong. Oh, I guess I was just the worst mother ever

02:00:07 I never did anything right and it's like, oh, no. No, it's like you got to go comfort that person

02:00:11 It's like it's a shitty manipulative tactic

02:00:13 That's incredibly selfish and destructive and it doesn't sound like she's just like I did you wrong. No defense

02:00:20 Don't focus on me. Let's focus on you. I want to ask you a hundred questions about what I did to you

02:00:25 Right. Yeah

02:00:28 Yeah, that's true she she doesn't have any of that that's I did ask her

02:00:37 If she was going to therapy because she also I forgot that she also mentioned that now she's exhibiting the same

02:00:43 Characteristics I described my mother and sisters as having as emotionally flying off the handle

02:00:49 and

02:00:52 I asked her if she got into therapy about it and she said yeah until she got better and then stopped and

02:00:57 Wait, when did she start flying having these meltdowns?

02:01:01 um

02:01:03 shortly before the birth of

02:01:07 her

02:01:09 And this is before the guy left

02:01:12 Yeah, yeah, okay see

02:01:16 Yeah, it was

02:01:20 Right shortly. So also a lot of people have meltdowns because they're battling their own conscience

02:01:25 Their conscience is kind of trying to yell at them to do something different or better

02:01:29 And they won't listen. So a lot of times the meltdowns are

02:01:33 to cover up

02:01:37 An attack of a bad conscience and of course as long as you cover it up and don't deal with it and don't solve it

02:01:41 the

02:01:42 Attacks will just get worse like your mother's

02:01:44 Uh hostility is is in part her instability is in part because of her own bad conscience

02:01:50 And you can't fix that in others, I mean you can tell them uh, yeah you have reasons to have a bad conscience

02:01:57 um, but you know, you can't you can't take away the effects of a bad conscience any more than you can

02:02:01 you can't

02:02:04 You can't heal someone's bad conscience any more than you can digest their food for them, right?

02:02:08 And uh, she's gonna you know, she's gonna have to find some way to

02:02:17 Live with this now. The good news is she'll just talk herself into she was somehow justified

02:02:22 uh, and there was no way to know and then she'll just start inventing all the bad things that she can imagine you have

02:02:29 Having had done and and so she'll just talk herself into justification. So she's not going to suffer that long

02:02:35 Right. She just lied to herself as most people do and but then there's no recovery, right?

02:02:41 right and

02:02:44 yeah, that's that's uh

02:02:46 Kind of what I was I think that may have been what

02:02:51 Triggered the question in my head of is this a bad idea because I think the way I worded my email was

02:02:58 uh

02:03:00 It probably sounded like I was asking you to tell me it was a bad idea because I already probably

02:03:04 Subconsciously knew uh, well you you're just trying to find you you're trying to fight your way out of

02:03:11 Gynocentric slavery which is you know, honestly, this is the default position for men throughout history

02:03:19 Has been the worship of an enslavement to women

02:03:23 Because most men didn't reproduce throughout history and women got to pick and choose and we just had to please the women all that was

02:03:28 it

02:03:29 And brilliant we can say this is good or bad. It's just evolution. It's like saying whether is it good or bad

02:03:33 We have two legs. I don't know just what works, right? It's just what worked

02:03:37 so we have and and of course now with the family court system and and all of this

02:03:43 Allegation stuff and like it's gotten kind of crazy right really crazy

02:03:47 So men are scared and and i'm not saying that's entirely wrong. Of course not, right?

02:03:53 I mean, I I still think it's worth pursuing

02:03:54 You've got to try and find the right woman but and it's pretty simple

02:03:57 Does the woman have abstract moral standards that she submits to independent of you?

02:04:01 Right, does she have abstract moral standards?

02:04:04 Now therapy culture doesn't give you that because it just gives you an eye me me eye wallowing your own feelings for the most part

02:04:10 Right, but philosophy gives you that so abstract moral standards that you have to subject yourself to but if the woman doesn't have these things

02:04:17 Oh, what are your values? What are your virtues?

02:04:19 Oh, there are this that and the other oh, can you tell me you like tell me a time when it's been really

02:04:23 Tough for you to achieve that or tell me a time where you think you failed that I mean, you know

02:04:27 These are all reasonable

02:04:29 filtering questions to to ask someone

02:04:31 And if it's you know, if it's just general goop of like well, you know

02:04:34 I try to be thoughtful and considerate and nice and this is like, you know, come on

02:04:37 That's not a that's not a moral standard. That's a hallmark card, right? So

02:04:41 You know what because everybody who's who's got a moral standard has a fair number of scars

02:04:46 Right. I mean I had to tell the truth with reason and evidence of the world got a little beaten up for that from time

02:04:51 to time

02:04:52 so, uh, it's and it's something somebody with real morals isn't going to be offended by that because you know,

02:04:59 You say well, what do you have a moral standards? Are you saying I don't have any moral standards?

02:05:01 It's like no i'm just asking you to tell me

02:05:03 You know, uh, tell me what they are so I can understand where you're coming from because I you know

02:05:08 I can't pair bond. I can only pair bond with morality. I can't pair bond with emotions or preferences or sex or whatever, right? So

02:05:15 Right pair bonding is only moral. There's only morals. That's it because the only thing that can have you trust someone

02:05:20 so

02:05:22 um

02:05:23 Yeah, I mean so going forward just filter by filter by virtues

02:05:26 Filter by virtues if someone says to me what are your moral standards and you know, how's it been tough to?

02:05:31 Implement them. It's like yeah, i'm i'll talk about that from here to eternity. I'm not offended by that

02:05:37 It's a great question to ask but you know people without moral standards will be offended and upset and it's like, okay

02:05:42 Well enjoy your hedonism. It's uh, it's horrible

02:05:45 So filter out. Yeah, so it doesn't sound like she's finding her wise way to

02:05:51 to virtue it sounds like she's

02:05:54 hurt and wounded

02:05:55 and

02:05:56 When your life messes up you have to take a long hard look in the mirror and say well, what did I do?

02:06:00 What did I do and who did I hurt?

02:06:03 Right, and she knows she's hurt you. She knows she made exactly the wrong decision and it comes down to does she have

02:06:09 the humility and the wisdom

02:06:12 To admit that she completely screwed up

02:06:14 And did just about the worst thing possible

02:06:16 And whatever

02:06:19 Principles or whatever things she's using to guide her life or leading her off a cliff

02:06:23 Does she have the humility to question that to say, you know what?

02:06:27 i'm

02:06:28 in a state of

02:06:30 absolute

02:06:32 Self

02:06:33 Um, it's not it's like i'm in an absolute blank slate. I don't know anything. I have to assume I know nothing

02:06:41 right like that line from

02:06:43 the movie like if all your

02:06:45 Principles got you here of what you see your principles

02:06:47 So everything that she did in her life got her to this place

02:06:50 And if she's not sitting there in horror at the principles that led her here and willing to attack and undermine

02:06:56 Every single one of them for the sake of her her child right for the sake of her child, right?

02:07:01 Right. I mean if you're now a single mom and the dad ghosted you and you left a loyal husband for that

02:07:08 That pile of shit then you gotta sort this stuff out. Otherwise, it's going to replicate on your kid

02:07:12 Yeah, oh

02:07:16 Okay. Yeah, that's right. I mean that

02:07:18 I don't mean to sound like a sap, but that was one of my first thoughts whenever she was telling me

02:07:23 How low she was was that?

02:07:26 Poor kid. I man hope

02:07:29 I don't know. I all I can do is hope because I can't

02:07:34 I don't know. I that's I don't want him that her child didn't grow up

02:07:39 In a horrible way even though it's not mine, I know it's not you know, it's like one of those things I

02:07:45 But at the same time I don't want any kids to

02:07:49 That was another it wasn't really yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't care man stop thinking about everyone else

02:07:56 Oh, like that's the last thing you need to do our kids and her her life and her happiness

02:08:04 Right because all that's going to do is attract more narcissists to you

02:08:07 Yeah

02:08:09 No, what are you your life?

02:08:11 I mean your life man

02:08:13 You dodged a bullet you dodged a bullet now. You can run back into the firing range with

02:08:19 Mariachi sauce on your chest or whatever, right? But uh, you know you you

02:08:25 You managed to so she had the kid with someone else

02:08:28 And and he and this is this is her judgment. This is her judgment

02:08:34 Like we don't have better decisions than our worst decisions

02:08:37 Do you see what I mean?

02:08:39 Yeah, like we don't we don't say, you know, some guy murders some guy we don't say well, you know for most of his life

02:08:44 He didn't kill anyone

02:08:46 It's like no no that that bad decision that's who you are now like so we don't have better decisions than our worst decisions

02:08:54 and she

02:08:56 Pursued a guy out of her marriage

02:08:58 Who's a real bastard right knocks up a woman ghosts her

02:09:01 Then puts all the shit on society's now gonna have to ever society's gonna have to deal with it

02:09:06 So he's a real bastard, right? I mean, he's a real yeah

02:09:09 He's a real asshole right a real bastard knocks up a woman. Well, first of all sleeps with the woman. He knows she's married

02:09:16 and then

02:09:18 Knocks her up and then the bails on her. So he's a total in my view just a total sociopath or whatever

02:09:23 Right, so it's totally evil evil guy

02:09:26 So that's who she wants. So that's that's that's now her decision. That's what's defined her life

02:09:30 And so you got you you extracted yourself from someone who makes these kinds of decisions

02:09:38 uh, holy crap

02:09:41 Yeah

02:09:44 You know, it's like the shark that half chews through the cage and you get back on the boat and you're like well

02:09:48 It could still be hungry

02:09:50 I mean, come on. I got I got a little muffin top here. Maybe you'll just do that part off. It'd be like lipo

02:09:56 Yeah

02:09:58 No, you got out of the orbit of somebody who is willing to make these kinds of decisions and this wasn't like some

02:10:03 Bizarre accident thing. This was like a conscious. No, this is why I was like, oh she accidentally got pregnant. It's like no she didn't

02:10:10 Yeah, no, she didn't

02:10:13 Yeah

02:10:17 So, yeah, that's you know, you you dodged a bullet you you got out of the shark infested waters and you know, it's time to

02:10:25 Time to move on and and but you know what you need to do is is

02:10:28 you just need to know what what happened that got you there that got you into that like you just

02:10:33 Had that bullet, you know five bullets graze graze your skull like what what neighborhood are you in?

02:10:39 What company are you keeping that this is happening and you are not choosing women based upon

02:10:45 Empirical virtues not just stated virtues, but empirical virtues

02:10:49 And yeah, as long as you don't have that requirement

02:10:52 You're just always in danger because the only thing that can protect you from other people is their integrity. That's the only thing

02:10:57 Life is just this incredibly

02:11:00 thin web

02:11:02 of

02:11:03 Catastrophe and the only thing the only thing

02:11:06 That keeps you safe around other people is their integrity and the only thing that keeps them safe around you is your integrity

02:11:11 This woman didn't have it. You didn't have it for most of the relationship. Hopefully you can get it now

02:11:16 I'm sure you can but that's the this it's just basic self-protection. It's the only thing that keeps you safe

02:11:22 Is other people's virtue and integrity and if that's not there

02:11:25 You're just dancing on the edge of a volcano sooner or later man. Either something comes out or you go in

02:11:32 Right and that's so

02:11:36 Whoo, okay, that's what i'm and this is the hard part is

02:11:42 I spent a whole year not working on

02:11:46 exactly that my own personal

02:11:51 well, I mean, I guess I kind of did I

02:11:53 But not not in it. Well, come on. I mean I I we got to end here because it's almost three hours

02:11:58 But okay, but i'll tell you this so so and as far as like so, why didn't you call me? Why didn't you call me?

02:12:03 Well, the reason you didn't call me is there's people in your life who want to exploit you and they don't want you calling me

02:12:08 Why did you drop out of philosophy because there's people in your life who don't benefit from you pursuing philosophy?

02:12:13 From you pursuing integrity and virtue and and all of that kind of good stuff

02:12:18 So again, nothing wrong with that. It's just a sort of basic a basic fact

02:12:22 But you say oh, well, I spent a year, but that's just you looking at yourself in isolation

02:12:27 You have to look at okay. Why didn't you pursue philosophy? Why didn't you call me? Why didn't you and that's fine?

02:12:32 I have no problem with the fact that you didn't

02:12:34 But don't just sit there and say well, I guess i'm just an idiot and I guess I just didn't do this and I get

02:12:38 No, no, no, because there are people in your life who don't want you to pursue philosophy

02:12:42 Of course, yeah, because that's going to cost them

02:12:47 If you if you get mad at people who didn't watch your back over this slow-moving disaster

02:12:51 That was fairly predictable from the very beginning. What are her stated virtues son?

02:12:57 What are her moral standards? Is she religious? No. Well, then where does she get her morality from?

02:13:02 If she is religious, okay, what moral standards does she actually manifest?

02:13:07 Well, your parents aren't going to want to ask you or grill you

02:13:11 on moral hypocrisy

02:13:14 Of course not

02:13:15 Yeah, that's that doesn't serve them

02:13:17 So, yeah, it's it's don't don't blame yourself

02:13:21 There are people in your life who want to exploit you and they don't want you

02:13:24 Discovering virtue. They don't want you asking tough moral questions. Of course, right? I mean that's

02:13:28 You know, the the con man doesn't want you doing a reference check. That's understood, right?

02:13:33 Right. Yeah

02:13:35 Yeah, that's true. So yeah, that's most of what I wanted to get across

02:13:38 Is there anything that you wanted to mention at to end here?

02:13:41 uh

02:13:43 No, not just thank you. I mean, thank you for taking my call. I like

02:13:48 I can't

02:13:50 Yeah, I can't say thank you enough. Um

02:13:53 Because this helped lay out the entire picture. I was looking at a corner of an abstract painting and

02:14:01 It helped a lot that's good. Well, that's what philosophy does is it does that major disorienting zoom at all right

02:14:09 But listen, then you keep me posted about how things are going

02:14:12 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, I really really appreciate your time today and uh, great great job on the call you did beautifully

02:14:18 Oh

02:14:19 Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thanks man. Take care. Bye. All right you too. Bye. Bye

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