• 9 months ago
"I got divorced in 2022, married since 2017. It was a "amicable divorce", but that is a loaded term. She asked for a divorce because she said that we weren't good together. That broke me. I didn't believe it, but then I realized why she was saying it. All the little things that I was ignoring came crashing home and I realized that she cheated on me.

"Now she is alone with a baby that is not mine. She is having a crisis and my heart hurts so much for her..."

Transcript: https://freedomain.com/should-i-raise-my-wifes-boyfriends-child-transcript/

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Transcript
00:00:00 So I was married for
00:00:02 five years together with my ex for seven altogether and
00:00:07 We got divorced
00:00:10 last November and
00:00:12 That is kind of a long story but
00:00:18 But anyway, so I've been
00:00:21 We think where'd you go
00:00:27 We got divorced and it was a what's called I'm sure you're aware an amicable amicable divorce
00:00:33 Which means we kind of figure things out on our own
00:00:36 we don't have to involve lawyers and all that and
00:00:40 Her reasoning was she was unhappy and kind of that that whole
00:00:47 line of thinking and
00:00:50 She
00:00:54 Shortly thereafter
00:00:56 Got a boyfriend which of course means certain things
00:01:01 And
00:01:05 They were together for about a year and then she's actually had a baby with him and
00:01:10 Now they split as soon as the baby was born. He's gone and I only know this because she checked me back
00:01:18 She sort of texted me again
00:01:20 and I
00:01:21 part of the reason why I emailed in was
00:01:26 I
00:01:28 Don't know how it is with other people but I
00:01:30 for me
00:01:32 once I love someone it never really goes away and
00:01:36 She is in a really hard place right now and I know it's not really my
00:01:42 Responsibility at all
00:01:46 but at the same time in my mind and maybe I think I was talking to another friend of mine and
00:01:53 he can think the same way like once married always married in the mind and
00:01:58 I
00:02:01 guess my big question like the big the big reason why I emailed in was I
00:02:06 Wonder
00:02:13 Which part of my body I'm thinking was to speak because I
00:02:19 Keep thinking she hasn't officially like asked me to kind of be part of
00:02:24 now in words so much as by action be part of her life and
00:02:29 I'm really on the fence about
00:02:34 Whether or not to
00:02:37 even engage in fact, I've kind of cut my
00:02:40 Text short whenever I text her about anything like whenever she's asking questions
00:02:46 and
00:02:48 So I guess my big my big question is that is kind of or a question for advice I get
00:02:55 It's not is it a bad idea
00:03:01 Just think I'm yeah
00:03:06 Well, listen, that's a great question to ask and a courageous question to ask and you said that there was a long story
00:03:16 Involved in the marriage. Well, I have
00:03:18 Six to seven minutes. No, I'm kidding. I have as much time as you want to
00:03:22 Tell me a little bit. We can stop at the outset. We can start with
00:03:26 the marriage
00:03:29 What's best you think are most relevant to you? I think
00:03:34 Hmm. Okay. I think the marriage is probably most relevant at this point, but I I was feeling
00:03:41 We're gonna get into the childhood
00:03:45 Really quickly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, especially well in now it'll all be secondhand
00:03:51 But she did tell me a lot about her childhood as well
00:03:54 So, okay, so
00:03:58 We met in
00:04:01 2015 in the year of our Lord and I was working
00:04:06 Just as like a store clerk
00:04:11 She would come in and actually we sir it was a like a bait type shop like bait head shop type thing it was
00:04:18 not what I do now, but
00:04:20 It's like one of those intermediary jobs. But anyway, it doesn't matter
00:04:24 she comes in and
00:04:27 she's a couple years younger than me and
00:04:30 I was just
00:04:33 You know how it is. I was completely captivated. I was helping somebody else out but
00:04:38 completely captivated like
00:04:41 Instant so she's very physical response. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, even now
00:04:45 And she's beat you in an addict store. Yes. Oh
00:04:50 No, we're already starting
00:04:54 So I'm just the backstory here so keep no I know yeah
00:04:59 so she comes in and seeing her shit with a friend and a girl and
00:05:06 They come in they want to try hookah
00:05:10 For the first time which I'm assuming I don't appear where no
00:05:15 No, yeah, I'm sorry
00:05:18 You know, do you know how much that sounds like hooker? No, no
00:05:21 I'm not like if you put that in a book the editor would be like, come on, man. That's too obvious
00:05:27 Why don't you just have her live on 304 Main Street?
00:05:31 Okay. All right. So yeah, she comes into the vape store and wants to try hook. Okay, go ahead. Yeah
00:05:39 Yeah
00:05:41 So I make it and
00:05:43 They sit down and they don't talk to me. They just but they keep looking at me, you know how the whole thing
00:05:49 Oh, I'll skip over kind of bored for this I guess cuz otherwise we'll be here for a couple of days
00:05:54 Anyway, she comes back the next day and this time she knows what she's doing and she's wearing like a
00:06:02 pretty white dress and
00:06:05 she just
00:06:07 Looking I mean if I was captivated before now like I'm completely in drool
00:06:13 So I we ask her on a date we go to coffee
00:06:20 Our first date is a date and what oh
00:06:25 We go to coffee. I'm sorry after I get off we go out to a coffee shop and
00:06:29 Coffee shop said cost. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Oh
00:06:32 That'd be a heck of a day
00:06:37 Yeah, get those free samples but no, but anyway we go to a coffee shop a local coffee shop and
00:06:43 I intend for it to be because it's kind of a little bit late. It's like 9 p.m. I think and
00:06:49 So I intend we're probably gonna be there for an hour. Maybe maybe two and
00:06:54 We end up just sitting outside on the patio talking over no coffee, you know
00:07:01 I mean, I've drink my coffee. She's drinkers until like 4:30 in the morning
00:07:06 and
00:07:07 so it starts out kind of with a
00:07:09 Bang, right? Well, no, no, that's that's not a good sign though, right? No. Yeah. Yeah
00:07:15 Why is that not a good sign?
00:07:17 What the start up? Oh, that's the food. Oh the 430 that's fusion. That's oh, I have no other responsibilities
00:07:25 You are my world
00:07:27 It's it's you know from from from famine to feast, you know all in a man's and yeah
00:07:35 It's not like a love bomb. It's like a cult technique or something
00:07:39 I don't know but this yeah, I would have some because people always say, you know
00:07:41 We talked until the Sun came up and it's like yeah, really you just man. This is you just merged like like
00:07:49 Baking ingredients or something. But anyway, go on. Yeah. No, no, that is a good. Okay. Yeah
00:07:56 Okay, so I take her home. That's I had picked her up and then I took her back to her apartment where her friends were
00:08:04 Worried sick about her her roommates
00:08:06 and
00:08:08 So she wasn't texting him or anything during the whole time. But anyway, so she's actually in grad school at this point studying
00:08:16 Psychotherapy basically and
00:08:20 She studied and this is actually kind of important to note she studied
00:08:27 her specialty was for sexually maladaptive youth and
00:08:33 Ends up working later. I don't I don't know what that phrase means. Oh
00:08:37 basically kids who have
00:08:40 either like young kids under the age of 13 who have either been
00:08:46 Molested or have
00:08:51 molested other kids
00:08:54 Or both well usually both actually, but she used to call me on the way home every day and home
00:08:59 Stories, so usually it's both
00:09:02 Issues and so
00:09:06 Let me see, so that's what she was getting her pretty a very pretty woman with no boundaries who's got
00:09:15 maybe a drug problem and
00:09:17 whose specialty is
00:09:19 victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse
00:09:22 Yeah, okay actually we can get into her childhood then at this point which I okay
00:09:31 I
00:09:33 Can't remember the test that you always reference. I can't remember what it's called, but it's the
00:09:38 Scale of the child's experience test the a test. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, he would score about a nine
00:09:44 Maybe a ten. I can't remember what ten is but I think
00:09:48 on that
00:09:51 Because about as bad as it can be right? I mean, yeah, not as bad as it can be
00:09:55 And when did you find that out over the course of dating her?
00:10:00 Yeah about
00:10:02 Two or three months in she kind of
00:10:07 Wanted to have a talk with me about
00:10:10 Because something had happened. It was her her father that
00:10:14 That helped her choose the path of the sexual and adaptive use study and
00:10:20 He was in prison, but something had happened and she wanted to talk to me about it
00:10:25 And that's when she told me about it, and I knew at the time
00:10:29 That this is like
00:10:33 Major red flag zone
00:10:36 But you know
00:10:39 well, I
00:10:42 I will admit so I
00:10:44 I listen I have listened to your podcast pretty much. I think since you were recording. I think I'm just phone in your car
00:10:51 And I know don't don't tell me that though
00:10:54 Well, no, no, no, no, don't tell me that. Why why do I not want to hear that?
00:10:58 Well, because the reason the reason I I had stopped listening for a long time and I started to kind of self-delude
00:11:07 Okay. Okay. So you yeah, you withdrew from philosophy and fell off a cliff. Okay, I did that's okay
00:11:14 Then not that that's great, but I can no no, but it it's it was
00:11:18 Whenever I stopped listening it was more. I don't actually know why
00:11:24 but it was like I went into a deep pit and
00:11:27 just
00:11:29 wound in there for
00:11:31 three or four years
00:11:33 You know like cutting philosophy out of your life is like turning the engines off on your airplane
00:11:38 I mean, yeah, you'll still fly I guess for a while
00:11:41 But you're kind of heading in one general direction
00:11:45 Yeah. Yeah, that that is that yeah, that's true. And that's what
00:11:52 Uh, well
00:11:54 But yeah, I didn't want you to think that I was listening to you during this because like you've always provided kind of a
00:12:00 clarity
00:12:02 and encourage like
00:12:04 I don't know. It's hard to explain actually but it encouraged me to read other things and to study and
00:12:09 And whenever I cut it off like I stopped
00:12:12 I kind of went down that dark
00:12:16 Dark journey, um into the woods as
00:12:20 As
00:12:22 Shakespeare might describe in
00:12:25 So
00:12:28 I had self-deluded myself into thinking
00:12:30 I'm gonna be the savior
00:12:34 of this for
00:12:36 Innocent soul not innocent, but that's what I told myself, I think
00:12:40 and
00:12:43 Be the rock be the whatever she needs so that
00:12:49 She can correct
00:12:51 A lot of the problems in her life
00:12:56 um
00:12:58 That was what I was thinking so for two years we dated
00:13:01 And with this in my head, you're a proud owner of the magic penis, right?
00:13:06 Uh, yeah healing healing staff of anti-crazy vaccination
00:13:11 No, because if you want to save her
00:13:15 You can be her friend, right?
00:13:18 Yeah, yeah, right. You could just be her friend
00:13:20 But no you you you I can't save her without the penis
00:13:25 I must dick her into sanity
00:13:28 So, yeah, I mean so the savior thing, okay, so what was your thinking about the whole savior thing
00:13:36 um
00:13:38 I
00:13:40 I honestly thought I I
00:13:42 I honestly thought to myself that I was
00:13:47 I was so stable in my own morality and my own everything
00:13:51 that
00:13:54 Bringing her into my life fully and being her main and only influence
00:13:58 would
00:14:00 Man, that sounds psychotic now that i'm saying it out loud
00:14:02 that's
00:14:05 I didn't
00:14:08 Well, that's what I was thinking though i'll
00:14:10 that was me then that
00:14:12 I know I can't really divorce me now for me then so much but
00:14:16 That was my thinking I remember clearly thinking wait. So sorry. What was your thinking that that you're so stable?
00:14:22 And you have such great people around you that you're gonna
00:14:25 Bring her out of the darkness and into the light and in this sort of giant gravity
00:14:30 Well of your own sanity and health she will be washed clean of all dysfunction. This is something like that
00:14:35 Yeah, well, yeah, I think so that's
00:14:40 What happened though was the opposite that was?
00:14:43 I lost all those friends
00:14:45 like actually now that i'm thinking about just like you described I think just
00:14:49 In oh one of the tough one of the shows you've been last late last year
00:14:55 probably multiple actually but
00:14:58 It ended up me not having friends and it just being me and her
00:15:02 And actually and it seemed
00:15:05 Good though that was but I guess it always probably does seem good but
00:15:15 Okay, was she still in contact with her abusive family
00:15:19 Uh, no. Well, oh well not initially
00:15:23 She did get in contact with her mother who?
00:15:26 I
00:15:30 I don't think I thought it through entirely until well, I wasn't really
00:15:36 Thinking with the right head I think but I wasn't thinking it through entirely
00:15:42 You gotta boil see you know this story so well
00:15:45 Yeah that you can skip and jump all over the place
00:15:48 Oh, i'm sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Okay, so so she she was not in touch with her abusive family
00:15:56 And then she got back in touch over the course of your dating. Is that right? Yeah during the dating
00:16:02 Yeah during the two years of dating she got back in touch with her mother
00:16:06 um
00:16:09 who
00:16:10 Who had at the time whenever she found out that her husband was abusing not just her yet her?
00:16:16 Uh youngest child, but all three of her children
00:16:20 Um, they divorced he went to prison
00:16:23 but
00:16:26 And for how long was your ex-wife?
00:16:28 molested oh
00:16:31 Well, that's the problem. Yeah three years from what I understand
00:16:35 And what are the ages?
00:16:38 She was three whenever it started and six whenever it ended
00:16:41 Her brother was that's I mean, that's obviously that's
00:16:45 Awful and terrible and you know massive sympathies, uh to everyone but the parents. All right, right
00:16:51 Exactly. No, and that's what I didn't think about it really until years later how how much that implicates her mother
00:17:00 and of course we were married and
00:17:03 all that but
00:17:05 How much that implicates her mother?
00:17:08 Because for three years her mother had no idea
00:17:11 that her husband that mother's husband was
00:17:16 Doing these things to the children which implies a lot of um
00:17:23 So I applied a lot of date her in inattention which actually carries over because
00:17:30 even during our wedding her own mother was fairly unattended and I
00:17:35 There's a lot of things I should have probably done instead of just letting it be
00:17:40 but um
00:17:43 But I wanted why did she get back in touch with her mother?
00:17:45 um
00:17:48 I think it's because i'm not entirely certain. I I think it partially has to do with
00:17:54 the urging of
00:17:57 One of her her aunt she was still in touch with her aunt who lives
00:18:02 An entirely different part of the country than her mother and doesn't really
00:18:06 Talk to her mother very much. But her aunt gave the you know, kind of the line of
00:18:11 Hey, you shouldn't ignore your mother like this. She gave birth to you and all this sort of thing
00:18:17 and
00:18:19 It went from there. I mean that lasted for a few months before she finally, uh, I think called her mom and
00:18:25 They kind of re-established a communication
00:18:30 communication
00:18:32 So if I if I this is from my perspective, I I think that what happened i'm not
00:18:38 100% sure that's exactly yeah, that's okay. I just just wanted to but but the mother was at your wedding, right?
00:18:46 Uh, she was yeah, um because we got married
00:18:50 um
00:18:52 yeah, september of
00:18:54 2017 so
00:18:56 So it was before it was shortly before we got married and how long did you date before you got married?
00:19:01 Uh about two years, uh, you think yeah about two years and maybe a little bit more and how was that relationship overall?
00:19:09 uh
00:19:11 I'll tell you i've had i'm i've only had two real serious girlfriends before her
00:19:16 and that didn't end up working out, but obviously that's but um
00:19:22 I have never felt so
00:19:26 Adored
00:19:28 I'd never felt so, um
00:19:33 Adored or loved
00:19:38 My entire life not even by my own parents
00:19:41 For my
00:19:45 I did not anticipate my throat going completely dry
00:19:50 So
00:19:52 So I yeah, I did not anticipate but it was I
00:20:01 But it was a kind of devotion that was
00:20:04 Like I was the only person in her world and I knew that probably wasn't healthy but I also was
00:20:15 A very very selfish person as well at that point. Maybe I still am
00:20:20 Sorry again, you're you're telling me all of these conclusions
00:20:24 With no facts. I just completely zone out when I was selfish. I was this I was that it's like
00:20:30 I still don't know any of the facts, right? Well, so like
00:20:33 I would wait so initially
00:20:35 um whenever we
00:20:38 Oh, you probably should know this. Um, so she did move in with me before we got married
00:20:43 Um, and initially she didn't have a job
00:20:45 Because she was still finishing up an unpaid internship
00:20:49 And then she'll get a job with that company after
00:20:52 And
00:20:55 The internship wasn't very much so she would stay home and like she'd clean and do
00:20:59 Like cook before I got home. I worked at a warehouse at this point, though
00:21:04 um shortly after we started dating
00:21:06 I upgraded my job. I quit at the
00:21:11 Smoke shop and uh went to a warehouse
00:21:15 Making a quite a bit more money, but um
00:21:19 But
00:21:24 She didn't really have any friends
00:21:26 Outside of me at that point because all of her friends were college friends that all
00:21:31 Flew back home around the country
00:21:34 Uh, so it was just me and her for about two or three years
00:21:41 Um
00:21:43 And she I mean she had some work
00:21:45 I don't know
00:21:48 They would be friends I guess but we never hung out with them outside of
00:21:52 Work really, uh, not initially
00:21:55 um
00:21:58 so
00:21:59 I guess
00:22:00 to describe the relationship though, it is one in which
00:22:04 I had her full attention at all times like
00:22:08 As soon as I got off work
00:22:10 It was just me and her
00:22:12 Until I went to work the next morning
00:22:14 And even after we got married and she was working. I mean she was working at that point for sure. Um,
00:22:21 After we got married as soon as I got home I got home before her
00:22:25 And she would call me on her way home and tell me about her day all the way because it was like a 20 minute
00:22:33 commute
00:22:34 or so
00:22:37 Tell me about all the
00:22:38 all the different things
00:22:40 that happened and
00:22:42 We did that every day for five years pretty much. Well every working day, of course
00:22:47 For five years and or four and a half
00:22:50 Um, so it was it was one of those kinds of relationships, right even though I knew that there were some
00:22:57 Red flags in the beginning. I didn't really see
00:23:04 Any real problems until the very end
00:23:06 And uh
00:23:10 We went I mean we took
00:23:13 We traveled around the country. I mean during the marriage
00:23:17 we would travel around the country and go to state parks and national parks and go hiking we had a
00:23:23 Initially just one dog and then we had two dogs. Um,
00:23:27 take them out and
00:23:29 Uh always got an excuse to go out and enjoy nature
00:23:34 and
00:23:36 Kind of be together and that was like the whole goal
00:23:38 However, she never really wanted well instead she didn't want children and I wasn't
00:23:46 Inclined towards children, um at least initially at
00:23:53 But
00:23:57 So we didn't really focus on that too much
00:24:00 other than the avoidance of that, um
00:24:04 um
00:24:06 The relationship I sorry when you say the avoidance you mean the avoidance of like having
00:24:10 Unprotected sex you don't mean you didn't avoid the topic. You just both talked about no, no, no one kids, right?
00:24:15 No about once a year. I would ask her or maybe more than that. Maybe a couple times a year i'd ask her if
00:24:21 Anything had changed because I didn't want to be
00:24:25 Uh, because I'm gonna be honest with you I it wasn't that I didn't want kids it was that
00:24:33 I didn't
00:24:35 I didn't feel the need or the urgency so much
00:24:38 um
00:24:40 to have kids especially with someone who
00:24:42 Really really did not want to have kids like very much so and I was okay with that
00:24:49 um
00:24:52 I'm
00:24:53 But yeah, so we didn't avoid the topic we just
00:24:55 used
00:24:57 contraceptives
00:24:59 so
00:25:00 And she didn't waver in her desire like she just didn't want kids, right?
00:25:03 No, yeah, no, not no, he didn't and now that does come into play after we got divorced
00:25:10 She did from what I understand at least accidentally get pregnant
00:25:15 and
00:25:17 The text methods that she sent me
00:25:19 about it because I asked her if
00:25:21 I'm, sorry. I'm, sorry
00:25:24 Yeah, unless that kid can walk on water. I don't understand the accidentally got pregnant thing
00:25:30 Ah, yeah, I mean you were with her
00:25:32 Since 2017 and she didn't get pregnant, right?
00:25:35 So help me understand. I don't know what it means. What do you mean accidentally?
00:25:39 Got pregnant help me understand that
00:25:42 I
00:25:44 that well
00:25:46 I would be mostly speculating but I was very very careful whenever she and I uh engaged in
00:25:52 No, no women have 15 different forms, sorry 18 different forms of birth control. Oh
00:25:59 If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she's not getting pregnant
00:26:02 Oh, that's true. And I will say while we were married. She did go off of birth control because
00:26:07 Her doctor said that it was what was causing
00:26:10 Like massive cystic acne like all over
00:26:14 Her body and not just her face but everywhere
00:26:18 and so she went off of birth control and I just used
00:26:21 And and I you know, I was okay with that that was
00:26:28 um
00:26:30 I'm still not sure what it means that she accidentally got pregnant. I mean she had i'm sorry
00:26:36 She had vaginal sex I assume without protections as she got pregnant
00:26:39 Yeah, that's what
00:26:42 Uh, yeah. Well and that's it is a good point. Okay, actually I didn't think
00:26:47 To ask that question of myself or of the situation. Yes
00:26:52 Uh, yeah, well and okay, and that's her
00:26:56 That would explain her text then because she said she never knew the joy it would bring her
00:27:02 um
00:27:04 And she I don't remember what the text said exactly
00:27:07 But I self-blamed at the end of the text slightly and this is whenever she and her
00:27:11 Now it's I guess. Um
00:27:14 Sorry, I'm gonna get a back up here because this is the first report of direct communication from her to you
00:27:21 Oh, okay. Yeah, so you want to have kids? She doesn't want to have kids. She's vehement and
00:27:26 Insistent and 100 that she doesn't want to have kids, right?
00:27:31 And then
00:27:33 After she gets pregnant she texts you and she says I didn't know the joy that it would bring me to have children
00:27:38 Yeah, like bro, if that ain't a stab to the heart and gonads, I don't know what is
00:27:44 It was in yeah
00:27:47 Yeah, that's beyond horrible
00:27:51 Yeah
00:27:52 That's like that's like if you're some cheating guy
00:27:55 Right. Yeah, and you break up with your girlfriend or your wife because you keep cheating, right?
00:28:00 And then you meet some new
00:28:02 Woman, and then you text your ex saying, you know, I just can't tell you how beautiful it is to be monogamous
00:28:08 I never had any idea how beautiful it is to not sleep around like a man whore
00:28:13 Yeah
00:28:16 Yeah, I
00:28:18 Okay, so everything is not
00:28:20 Uh, hi, does she did she have any sense that that would be an incredibly wounding thing for you to hear?
00:28:25 Yeah
00:28:30 I think so. I I think she must have because
00:28:34 Boy I forgot how that made me feel whenever because this text was
00:28:41 Um a few months ago
00:28:43 That she we don't talk often. It's every couple of months. She'll text me or i'll text her about
00:28:49 something and
00:28:51 um
00:28:52 I forgot how hard that hit me and
00:28:54 I think
00:28:57 I was married to her for five years. I should know but i'm not sure because like the way she asked for a divorce was
00:29:04 Felt so gut-wrenching heartless and out of it. I know it wasn't out of the blue
00:29:10 but it felt like it was and
00:29:13 like
00:29:15 it was
00:29:17 It felt okay. You're off on story time things. I don't know about i'm sorry. I'm sorry
00:29:21 I'm, the way she asked for divorce. It's like I don't know she did. Yeah. Okay. So why don't you tell me about the decline of
00:29:28 Yes, the marriage when did it start to go bad? Okay, so in 2000 and after we'd been together
00:29:34 For four and some four years and some months, um
00:29:41 Oh, it would have been in the beginning of the year
00:29:46 2000 and
00:29:48 When did we get divorced 2022? So, uh, like january february 2022 I noticed
00:29:53 That she was pulling away a lot emotionally
00:29:56 uh quite a bit for the first time in
00:29:59 Six roughly six years six and a half years
00:30:02 And she had never done that before and so it was shocking to the system that
00:30:07 she became
00:30:10 Kind of cold and tallid and we talked about it and
00:30:15 uh, nothing she she assuaged my fears and my
00:30:19 Because of course i'm gonna fear something's up
00:30:22 and
00:30:25 I don't remember exactly what she said, but um
00:30:27 I was okay at the end of that conversation. I felt like okay
00:30:31 Nothing's wrong. She's just kind of going through a hard time
00:30:34 Uh, then about a month later
00:30:37 She said she told me that she doesn't think that our marriage is working out just out of the blue like as
00:30:45 And of course between the time we talked and then the time she said
00:30:49 She doesn't think we're working out
00:30:51 There was still a bit of distance, but I kind of thought
00:30:55 I I didn't really understand what the distance was from like no matter what I did. I couldn't get her to talk
00:31:04 about it, um
00:31:07 Because I would say that's exactly to another guy, right? I mean, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you already know
00:31:14 That's
00:31:15 so I didn't know and
00:31:17 That lasted and I I refused
00:31:21 I mean I was i'll tell you I was in tears
00:31:24 You said that last night, but I don't know what that i'm, sorry
00:31:27 um, so the first time she asked I just realized I hadn't
00:31:31 Said the first time she said we're not doing well and
00:31:34 This isn't working
00:31:39 I just based I just straight up refused and said this we're not no, this is not
00:31:44 You're going through something. I don't know what it is
00:31:47 But we're not going to talk about divorce just out of nowhere
00:31:51 And so she she got quiet and we didn't talk about it
00:31:55 and
00:31:58 I did not feel good about saying that or you didn't talk about the problems you were having
00:32:02 Uh, oh, I didn't want to talk about divorce, but i've been asking her up until that point
00:32:07 About the like what is the problem because I was doing
00:32:10 I felt like I maybe not to this day. I still don't know
00:32:14 Exactly what I was doing wrong
00:32:17 to
00:32:19 push her away or
00:32:21 Even give her the conception
00:32:24 Of looking around at other guys good. Okay. Sorry. So
00:32:28 But what what what were the virtues that you loved about her?
00:32:31 What what virtues did she manifest?
00:32:35 that you love she was well, yeah, this gets so stupid now because
00:32:39 The reason why I married her the virtues
00:32:42 for which I married her were
00:32:45 She was one of the most
00:32:47 Honest people I knew I had ever met or at least looking back now, I guess that's how I perceived her
00:32:56 um
00:32:59 She was okay. So hang on so want to yeah
00:33:03 I mean given that she lied to you
00:33:05 About your marriage. Yeah, that's not a virtue, right? So she's
00:33:08 Proven a liar. There's no form of state where somebody's not a liar liar doesn't just sort of grow
00:33:13 On you right tumor
00:33:15 So when you were dating her
00:33:17 What was your experience that that gave you the thought that she was very honest, uh, because um
00:33:26 Whenever we talked about
00:33:30 Anything she would uh
00:33:33 um
00:33:34 Never really held back her opinions
00:33:36 and it wasn't just that though, I know that's kind of almost superficial, but
00:33:41 um, she
00:33:43 I'm trying to think of an example because
00:33:48 She was very forthright with um
00:33:53 If something was wrong say for instance, this isn't in a specific example, but say for instance, we got a bill
00:34:00 Uh, we went out to you. No, I I want listen, you knew the woman for seven years
00:34:05 Yeah, and I call example
00:34:07 Okay, you're right
00:34:10 Yeah, you're right. I've been a doctor in the er for seven years. Can you give me an example of something you've treated? No
00:34:16 But here's something I read about in a textbook once and it's like what?
00:34:20 No, okay. Yeah. No, you're right about that. That's I I have been
00:34:25 New before I even started saying the word. Um
00:34:29 okay, so
00:34:31 She always chose for instance, um
00:34:35 When i'm sorry, she knows
00:34:40 I i'm trying to think of something specific and didn't like them
00:34:48 I'm sorry. Sorry. Can you hear me? I can um, can you hear me? Yes
00:34:58 Yes, and I couldn't catch that word
00:35:01 um
00:35:04 Oh the I said she always chose and then I backed up because that was not a specific example. Um,
00:35:12 That was going to be another general. Sorry. Go ahead
00:35:15 Oh, okay. You can hear me now
00:35:18 Oh, no, I could hear you the whole time I just wasn't sure if you could hear me, okay
00:35:22 so i'm still waiting for an example of
00:35:26 What she did to earn the the title, uh, very honest
00:35:30 I'm sure there was
00:35:42 Okay, so let's let's just be honest you just made that up yeah pretty
00:35:47 Because you didn't want to say basically she was pretty and you know
00:35:53 Yeah, good sex and I love her on my arm and a good and there were positive qualities that she had
00:35:59 Right
00:36:03 your
00:36:04 Sexual dysfunction like you were molested for three years from three to six by a father who went to prison
00:36:09 Do you think in particular?
00:36:12 Until two or three months into a relapsing dimension that little
00:36:16 Yeah, I
00:36:22 Yeah, I do
00:36:24 Sorry
00:36:28 My father
00:36:31 Is now in prison you don't think that's something that someone should tell you
00:36:36 Before a couple of months into the relationship
00:36:40 yeah, I I
00:36:43 Yeah, my perspective now
00:36:45 I think so. I at the time I excused it because it's so
00:36:49 Uh
00:36:51 Not embarrassing but it's it's such a shocking revelation I
00:36:59 I guess I excused it in my own mind
00:37:04 but
00:37:07 Or why do you think it would be a good thing to say that sooner than later
00:37:12 Well, so that
00:37:17 Whoever your prospective date or partner is
00:37:20 Knows what he's getting into before he bonds to you too much
00:37:27 Yeah, I mean
00:37:31 Especially I guess when she was dating you she was out of touch with her family, right?
00:37:35 Her family of origin most yeah for the most part. Yeah
00:37:39 Okay, that's that's a yes or no question
00:37:42 Uh, well, no because her aunt I mean she was still in touch with her aunt but um, oh i'm sorry
00:37:48 You said family of origin. Yes. Yes. That is a yes
00:37:50 I'm, okay. Well, I mean, I guess the origin that she was in touch with extended family
00:37:55 the reason that you would want to know is of course
00:37:58 you would want to know if
00:38:01 somebody had
00:38:04 Um
00:38:05 I assume had she gone through a lot of therapy for her issues
00:38:09 Oh, yeah, um up until the time she went to college from the age of six to I guess eight seventeen or eighteen
00:38:15 whenever
00:38:17 College, okay, so she'd gone through a lot of that
00:38:19 The reason that you would want to talk about that is first of all, this is not just the individual
00:38:26 But it's the gene pool and the family that you're marrying into especially if she's still in contact even with her extended family
00:38:32 so this is the the gene pool and this is the
00:38:35 um
00:38:38 the family that you're
00:38:40 Going to be uh marrying into and this family is blind to a vicious rampant pedophile right in their midst
00:38:47 So, you know that seems seems kind of important and also of course that uh, she
00:38:53 It would have an effect
00:38:55 Uh, it could have an effect on her reproductive organs. We don't have to get into any details, but it could
00:38:59 And it could also uh, it certainly would have an effect on her parenting style her desire
00:39:06 For for being a mother and that there's a lot
00:39:08 that would
00:39:10 go on
00:39:12 With all of that, right?
00:39:14 Right. That's true. Yeah
00:39:16 That's now when your family when you're you I don't know do you have siblings
00:39:22 I have two sisters. Yeah one other one
00:39:25 So when your siblings
00:39:28 your sisters
00:39:30 And your parents found out about your girlfriend's history. What did they say?
00:39:36 um
00:39:38 Well, my mother was more
00:39:41 uh
00:39:45 More just sympathetic
00:39:47 I guess and my mother also had she wasn't molested as a child. I don't think but
00:39:52 She had a very abusive
00:39:55 Family growing up physically abusive and verbally emotionally
00:39:59 So she I think that might be part of the reason why she sympathized
00:40:05 with her very much and my dad
00:40:07 He he and I did talk about it
00:40:11 But he said he would
00:40:15 He thinks it's risky, but he
00:40:17 would I know her better than he does is what he said so
00:40:21 um
00:40:23 and of course I was
00:40:25 I think I might have still been blind to it. Well, I was blind to it up until
00:40:32 Sorry blind to what what do you what do you mean? Uh to the to the implications of the red flag
00:40:37 I mean to the implications of her past
00:40:40 until
00:40:42 at least a year into our marriage at least maybe two I didn't think about it because
00:40:47 I never saw anything come of it. She seemed
00:40:51 Well, she seemed
00:40:56 More than stable for
00:41:00 For what she had gone through as a child
00:41:02 I I don't know what any of that you see these are all just conclusions
00:41:07 And if you're just going to tell me conclusions, there's nothing I can do to help you
00:41:11 Oh, okay, right because because if like if your conclusions are correct
00:41:15 then
00:41:18 You don't need my help if your conclusions are incorrect
00:41:20 They don't help the conversation at all
00:41:22 Like this is why I keep like i'm on my knees just begging you to give me some facts rather than these endless conclusions
00:41:28 Which are really alienating and distancing from me
00:41:30 Like i've gotta i've got to listen to you for like an hour before I get a scrap of direct communication, which is her
00:41:35 Telling you how happy she is to be pregnant after telling you for
00:41:38 Six years that she didn't want to have kids with you, right? So right that's why like I mean, dude
00:41:44 Please just give up brothers and facts. I just I'm dying out here
00:41:48 Okay. Yeah, i'll i'll i'll okay, so
00:41:52 So you said that she seemed more than stable given what she'd been through, right?
00:41:58 Right and that's that's what like I don't I don't know what any of that means. I don't know what standard you have
00:42:04 Uh, I don't know like
00:42:06 How is that relative to a woman who wasn't sexually abused?
00:42:09 For three years at such an early age like whose father didn't go to prison
00:42:14 I mean, maybe she had to testify in court for all I know right and her siblings were also
00:42:18 uh
00:42:20 Abused sexually abused as children. So when you say well, you know given all that she went through she was super stable
00:42:26 You understand there's so many variables there
00:42:28 I can't possibly process what any of that means
00:42:30 In reality and the other thing too like your credibility to be frank
00:42:34 My friend is not super high because you say I said well
00:42:37 What what were the virtues you love to for and you say honesty and I say can you give me an example?
00:42:41 Ba ba ba ba. Nope. Nope. Nope, right?
00:42:44 Right, give me a theoretical one. So your conclusions
00:42:48 Are a suspect to be honest. This is why i'm begging you for facts because I don't trust your conclusions
00:42:54 Not because you're an untrustworthy guy, but you know, this is a lot of right accumulated experience and scar tissue
00:42:59 And I sympathize with all of that
00:43:01 But you know, I keep asking you for facts and you just keep giving me
00:43:04 Conclusions that I I don't know what the evidence for is and when I do finally ask you for the evidence for one
00:43:10 There's none
00:43:12 Right. So the fact that your conclusions are just a bunch of noise that's misdirecting the conversation. So okay forget forget
00:43:21 The standard of well, she was sexually abused and this and the other what were the evidence of stability or instability
00:43:28 Early on in your relationship
00:43:32 early on especially
00:43:34 um
00:43:35 she
00:43:37 I know that I mean just after six months of knowing her
00:43:39 She never
00:43:43 Had any
00:43:45 And maybe my standard is
00:43:50 Probably my own mother and the two women I dated before her but she never had any emotional breakdowns that I could
00:43:57 At all what six weeks no emotional breakdowns
00:44:01 Six months six months is what I meant if I six months no emotional breakdowns. That's your standard
00:44:08 uh
00:44:10 And that uh
00:44:14 I suppose well, not your sister. Really your sister. They also have emotional breakdowns on. Oh my yes
00:44:20 Okay, so your sisters have emotional breakdowns your mother and and what do you mean by an emotional breakdown?
00:44:26 Just like completely losing it like screaming it curling into a ball. Like what do you mean?
00:44:30 all of the above and
00:44:33 Screaming is one thing that always except my youngest sister doesn't scream. She just curls into a ball and kind of disappears
00:44:40 my older sister and mother both
00:44:43 I grew up with them constantly
00:44:45 Just any tiny little thing that goes wrong in their life
00:44:50 they
00:44:52 they will um
00:44:54 Make it dramatic make it something that's just
00:44:58 uh larger than life and no one can help
00:45:02 And okay, so they're kind of hysterical, right? Oh
00:45:06 Yeah, that's why I don't what does your what does your dad do in these
00:45:12 situations
00:45:14 So
00:45:17 Okay, it's not funny I shouldn't laugh but um before
00:45:25 Okay, where do I start? Yeah now, okay now he
00:45:30 He will try to calm her with a calm tone and
00:45:36 uh, but
00:45:38 Oh like like the guy in jurassic park, but the raptors right to speak to them
00:45:41 Even tone and try and talk them off their ledge, right?
00:45:44 Yeah, actually that is a really good. Uh
00:45:48 Whatever you call an analogy or stimuli I guess and yeah, it's that's what he tries to do now
00:45:56 I will say okay
00:45:58 This is where it gets a little hairy because he didn't used to be that way
00:46:02 he used to take control of the situation and
00:46:06 As in he would he would have a commanding
00:46:09 Present. I don't know
00:46:11 Actually how to describe
00:46:13 How to describe it, but everyone stood to attention
00:46:16 Whenever he decided to intervene
00:46:19 He wasn't not like not
00:46:22 Not like yelling or anything either. It was just the tone of his voice. My mother would
00:46:28 instantly calm down
00:46:30 um, however
00:46:35 I can't remember what year it was, but I was in fourth grade, I think
00:46:39 um, and he
00:46:42 Cheated on my mother, uh, he was a preacher or is is still um
00:46:48 and so he counseled a lot of people and
00:46:52 I won't make excuses for him, but
00:46:55 Um, he did cheat on her and from that point onward he was no longer
00:47:04 Um
00:47:05 He lost his authority and people wouldn't his his the women wouldn't defer to him because he was at fault and
00:47:10 Now do you have any idea?
00:47:13 What was the stuff that led up to it? I'm not excusing him. I'm just yeah, I mean was it that his I do
00:47:18 Uh, he sorry dude, like oh, I feel constantly rushed in this conversation. Do you know why i'm sorry?
00:47:23 No, do you know why?
00:47:25 I don't know because you barely let me get a word in edgewise before you start talking over me
00:47:30 So you just need to take a deep freaking breath
00:47:34 Let me talk you're here. You're here for me to ask questions, right and to you know, give some feedback
00:47:39 Hopefully so you need to calm down and just let me talk. Okay, because I start asking
00:47:44 Right, it's really kind of staticky on my brain so all right, so do you know if
00:47:52 Your
00:47:54 parents like
00:47:56 Did did your mom stop having sex with your dad or like was there anything that you know?
00:47:59 That might have been causal in the marriage that might have led him
00:48:02 To be more likely to stray
00:48:04 Yes
00:48:06 um, I know because
00:48:08 Because my mother told me and the elders of the church told me um
00:48:15 Exactly what happened and i'm assuming they're
00:48:20 Narrators that I can trust but um assuming they're right the elders in the church
00:48:27 um
00:48:29 Everything that he wanted to do to help
00:48:32 Make make the church grow and help the community like reach out to the poor. That was one thing that the elders were against
00:48:38 if you can believe it and
00:48:41 um, they wanted to reach out to the more wealthy people in town
00:48:45 And my dad didn't want to do that. And so he didn't do that. He
00:48:49 did what
00:48:51 he felt was right and
00:48:53 So they constantly in every meeting that they had for probably two years
00:49:00 Just it was constant abuse and my mother
00:49:04 Initially, I mean no no, no not initially she from the beginning
00:49:09 um took the side of the elders and
00:49:13 Whenever he got home
00:49:15 Sorry
00:49:22 Well, it's fine it's fine to be emotional go ahead
00:49:28 You
00:49:30 Whenever he got home the fight that they were they would have
00:49:36 Man I didn't think this this would get me because this is so old
00:49:46 You know, nothing's old in the heart right the heart is timeless but going
00:49:57 Okay
00:49:59 Okay, deep breath the fights that they would have were so
00:50:03 horrible
00:50:07 But I would go outside no hitting they wouldn't hit each other but the amount
00:50:13 Of abuse that my dad took
00:50:18 That's why even though I don't excuse his behavior
00:50:23 Because he promised her
00:50:27 in marriage
00:50:29 I understand why i'll tell you that
00:50:33 Because everybody around him
00:50:36 Broke him down all the way
00:50:40 And he told me uh
00:50:46 Shortly after we moved we had to move they stayed together. They didn't get divorced
00:50:50 we had and I imagine it's because she had complete and utter power over him, I don't know but
00:50:57 That's the only thing I can think of why she would stay with him after
00:51:00 Hearing the things she said
00:51:03 What do you mean what did what did she say to him? Oh she
00:51:08 The
00:51:13 It wasn't just what she said, but she would tell him things like he is nothing
00:51:19 He's always uh
00:51:23 She doesn't know why he always has to go against everyone else
00:51:28 And but it wasn't what she said it was how she said it was I mean
00:51:36 Even as a child I was
00:51:40 Oh man, it tore me up inside that's why I had to go outside every time because
00:51:52 Screaming at a contempt at him. Is that is that? Oh, yeah, it was complete and utter contempt for
00:51:57 I mean it sounded to me as a child. I mean from my memory. Um
00:52:01 It sounded to me like she was intentionless even that he
00:52:05 even existed I mean
00:52:08 It well, she was she was probably being worked over by the elders
00:52:13 Like you've got to get him to change it's it's you know, the soul of the congregation depends on you
00:52:18 So she was probably being whipped into a frenzy against her own husband by outsiders and was just sort of channeling their hatred
00:52:24 to some degree
00:52:26 Yeah that okay. I didn't yeah, I actually never considered that that's
00:52:29 but I have always
00:52:32 Well since then I have always held my mother at length like at arm's length kind of it
00:52:39 Just because I
00:52:42 I don't know. I
00:52:44 Couldn't really look at her after that. It's basically
00:52:46 What my dad did
00:52:49 After to kind of try to make up for it
00:52:51 I mean, I don't know if you can make up for chance
00:52:53 Uh, but to make up for
00:52:58 He and I went down we moved down south, um without them at first because we bought a piece of property sorry without your mother
00:53:07 Uh, yeah, they stayed up and uh the property that we owned. Okay
00:53:13 North um so that they didn't have to live like we were about to live and we lived in a tent for
00:53:19 Three to six months while we built
00:53:24 this property basically built a barn and a house and
00:53:28 Just me and him
00:53:31 and uh
00:53:34 Then they moved I mean once it was all ready
00:53:38 my mother and sisters moved um
00:53:41 which I don't resent him at all for that because
00:53:43 I mean, I I got most of my resilience
00:53:46 From those years I think of
00:53:50 Living down south we'll just say um
00:53:54 just from the hardship of
00:53:57 waking up in the mornings and working all day and
00:54:01 Of course that also had made me bond with my father a lot more as well. So maybe I I don't know I
00:54:08 Um, either what did he say? I mean, did he talk at all about what happened in the marriage? Yeah
00:54:14 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's
00:54:16 uh, he
00:54:18 He wouldn't give specifics about
00:54:20 Some things but he did
00:54:22 He he continually told me
00:54:24 Uh, he never
00:54:28 No, he he would tell me about what happened because I would ask because
00:54:32 Just me and him out in the middle of a swamp basically because he bought a piece of property. It was like a swamp
00:54:38 And please god just tell me what he said about the marriage. Oh, i'm so sorry. I'm
00:54:42 Trapped in a dickens paragraph here
00:54:44 We got i'm getting older. Please just tell me what he said about the marriage
00:54:49 He would tell me that um not to hate my mother
00:54:53 because it was
00:54:56 What he did was inexcusable
00:54:59 I heard those words, but I
00:55:05 I don't know
00:55:07 I I heard their fights
00:55:09 I don't think it's excusable. No, no, no. Nevermind. I should back that up. I don't I do believe what he said. I believe he believed
00:55:17 Uh, it was inexcusable and under no circumstances
00:55:20 If you get married
00:55:24 Should you ever and he said he knows that doesn't mean much to work from someone who just did that but
00:55:31 He said you can see
00:55:37 Oh, man
00:55:39 I'm, sorry, didn't didn't your father subscribe to thou shall not bear false witness
00:55:43 Uh, yeah. Yeah. So what's he what's he talking about?
00:55:47 I mean, is it not a betrayal if your wedding vows to pour hatred and scorn and contempt upon the father of your children?
00:55:55 Yeah
00:55:58 But isn't that a more serious break of the wedding vows than having sex with someone outside the marriage?
00:56:03 Yeah
00:56:05 That is true
00:56:07 But he's he's a martyr, right? He's like, oh it's me and it's inexcusable and yeah, right
00:56:11 So so he voluntarily gave up all of his authority
00:56:14 Because he stayed
00:56:17 In a relationship with a woman who held him in contempt
00:56:19 That's true. Okay, and and you my friend are in danger of repeating the exact same pattern
00:56:26 Oh, man, yeah, that's
00:56:30 Yeah
00:56:34 Okay, so how old were you when all of this was going on what was your age range when all of this
00:56:39 I think it was around
00:56:42 After that summer I enrolled in
00:56:49 Eighth grade, so I think you're 14, I think so 13 14 15 that kind of range
00:56:56 um 13 to 15 was whenever
00:57:00 Uh each year
00:57:05 And how long did the affair last uh only um
00:57:09 Uh, I believe it was only about a
00:57:13 a week of
00:57:16 Maybe two or three times that week
00:57:18 That he went over to
00:57:20 Well, and it was more than just an emotional affair I assume it was physical as well. Oh, yeah
00:57:26 Okay
00:57:31 And since then your mother's held all the power
00:57:34 In the relationship. Oh, yes
00:57:36 Continues to okay. Okay. So your mother's still a bully
00:57:40 Yeah, that's very your father your father models being bullied to his children
00:57:49 Yeah
00:57:52 Uh, yeah
00:57:53 So your mother does not practice the virtue called forgiveness
00:57:57 No
00:58:00 No, I yeah, no, okay and your your father enables this right? So what what's your father's story?
00:58:07 Like how is how is this a virtuous thing?
00:58:09 To allow yourself to be bullied in front of your children and thus poison them with
00:58:13 This toxicity like help me. Is it just like what I made about and it's like
00:58:18 Is it just he's just got these abstract rules that he just punished himself with or what? Ah,
00:58:23 Actually, I believe that's I think you hit the nail
00:58:27 on the head because I
00:58:30 Because he and I have talked, uh
00:58:32 About it and about how a man should act after I mean after all of this after I grew up even more and
00:58:40 He always returns to quoting scripture to me which well as a rule set
00:58:49 and
00:58:51 I think maybe
00:58:53 Maybe you're right about that. He
00:58:56 Well, I mean the marriage vows are very clear that you you don't put other people ahead of your spouse, right?
00:59:01 Right. Yes
00:59:03 and so if your mother is putting
00:59:05 Outsiders or church elders or whatever above her spouse and in fact insulting her spouse based upon other people's disapproval
00:59:14 She's cheating in a far worse way than having sex a couple of times in a week
00:59:20 Uh
00:59:24 So does he i'm trying to sort of figure this out
00:59:27 Why did he choose such a hysterical aggressive and bullying woman, why do you think that was I
00:59:37 I'm not sure I because
00:59:42 His mother is not that way
00:59:45 Um, how pretty is your mother or what's
00:59:52 She was yeah whenever she was younger well, yeah whenever she was younger she was uh
00:59:57 She was a good looking woman
01:00:01 Okay, and and is she would you say significantly or somewhat more attractive than your father physically
01:00:07 Oh, actually, no, no. He's a good looking guy, too
01:00:12 Yeah, that's that was always her complaint. No matter where we lived all growing up that all the women flocked to him
01:00:20 That was her complaint. Her complaint was that her husband was attractive
01:00:22 Oh my what a oh crossed bear poor poor jesus, you know, at least he wasn't saddled with an attractive wife my gosh
01:00:32 We better drag that cross get your crown of thorns, but my gosh
01:00:37 Having a pretty wife would just I mean that's that's too cruel for anyone
01:00:41 Yeah. Oh, oh
01:00:44 Oh, I see which
01:00:48 I was laughing and yeah
01:00:50 Okay, so so he can't be assertive and why can't he be assertive why can't your father be assertive
01:00:59 Why can't you say like so because going and having an affair is passive, right?
01:01:04 Right. Why can't you say you you absolutely?
01:01:08 Never talked to me in that tone. You made a vow before god himself
01:01:13 To put no others
01:01:15 Above me like you absolutely will never ever use that tone with me again. This is absolutely not a thing
01:01:21 That's possible have some piety
01:01:23 And now you need to ask for my forgiveness for using that tone with me
01:01:27 Oh, that's okay max with that whole thing right now he never actually went he did
01:01:34 He used to often
01:01:38 Tell her not to talk to him
01:01:41 in the way that she's talking to him in that, uh, whenever she can
01:01:45 Uh calm down then they can talk
01:01:49 and that worked for most well, no not most of my childhood, but that worked for about half of my childhood, but
01:01:58 I don't know what was different
01:02:01 Well, she realized that he had absolutes about staying marriage and married so that all of his uh,
01:02:11 Statements or you could say threats or ultimatums were meaningless
01:02:14 You know, okay, that's yeah. Okay. Let me I made a vow to stay married. So so then he has no leverage no power
01:02:22 Yeah, you know the restaurant doesn't need to improve their food if they know you're always going to come back no matter what
01:02:28 Yeah
01:02:32 Okay, that's that's that's some sort of deep uh deep backstory
01:02:40 And has your mother ever noticed that you've kept a distance from her since you were 14 years old
01:02:44 Oh, yeah. Yes. She comments on it
01:02:48 often
01:02:50 And does she take any responsibility for having attacked your father and you as the only other male in the family might take that a little
01:02:56 freaking personally
01:02:58 Absolutely not. No, I even confronted her
01:03:02 Oh my god, all right
01:03:08 So she is kind of abusive
01:03:10 She broke your father in two
01:03:13 She won't take any ownership about her relationship with you
01:03:16 She has no humility. No christian forgiveness. No self-knowledge. No virtue. No commitment to honesty or responsibility, right?
01:03:24 Right. Yeah. Okay. So help me understand the big plus of having her in your life
01:03:30 That
01:03:36 You could question
01:03:38 Let me put it another way
01:03:40 i'm sally
01:03:42 the hottest thing
01:03:44 since the ice since the iceland volcano
01:03:46 and i'm a strong and virtuous and humble and wise and
01:03:51 direct and honest and then I
01:03:54 Date you and you bring me over to meet my future possible mother-in-law
01:04:03 And I look and I say, hmm, I could be spending the next 30 or 40 years with this person in my life
01:04:08 Oh
01:04:11 Am I am I thrilled about that?
01:04:13 No, am I excited about that? Is that a big plus?
01:04:17 And then I look at you and you're like, oh, she's my mother man. I love her
01:04:21 Now what does sally what do what do I as sally think about that situation? How does that
01:04:30 How does that dangle in front of me like a big plus or a big like yikes?
01:04:33 And
01:04:37 Yeah, that would be this woman to be around raising my help me helping me raise my kids
01:04:42 right
01:04:44 Yeah, that's uh
01:04:46 In fact not who's in her life it's who's kept out of her life that matters
01:04:52 Right. What did your ex-wife think of your mother?
01:05:00 Well
01:05:02 Um
01:05:04 She was in fact how you just described sally
01:05:09 Would be very close to not that she was excited. Actually I should say she was
01:05:16 we didn't talk to my parents for the majority of my
01:05:20 uh being married because specifically
01:05:23 because of that, um
01:05:27 because she didn't like being around them and I I honestly
01:05:29 I only liked being around them because
01:05:33 Like being around my dad but
01:05:37 Uh, but she really didn't
01:05:42 But your dad models to you avoidance and surrender
01:05:47 Oh
01:05:53 Yeah
01:05:57 Yeah, okay, so
01:06:01 Is it fair to say that your ex-wife met some guy lied to you about it and then
01:06:07 Left you to pursue a relationship with him
01:06:10 Uh, yes, I believe so
01:06:12 And you don't have she didn't admit to that but that's what you're understanding. Um, actually actually she admitted
01:06:18 to
01:06:20 uh the
01:06:22 cheating she didn't
01:06:24 Say anything about going off to be with him, but I just kind of assumed
01:06:27 Oh, so she did admit that she was cheating on you with this
01:06:30 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, of course she knew the story that cheating didn't end
01:06:38 Your parents marriage cheating on both sides, right?
01:06:42 Yes
01:06:44 Okay. So why do you think that she?
01:06:47 Uh pursued this other guy or to put it another way how close was she to 30?
01:06:53 When she pursued this other guy
01:06:55 Ah, okay. She was uh 29
01:06:58 There you go. So so why why did she end up in a marriage with no children where you weren't pushing for kids?
01:07:05 Why did she end up going to get pregnant by another guy?
01:07:11 Yeah
01:07:15 Have you not seen jurassic park?
01:07:17 Life finds a way
01:07:21 Yeah, that's true
01:07:23 It's very true
01:07:26 Okay, yeah
01:07:29 I
01:07:31 I will admit relationship was going was going nowhere
01:07:34 Yeah, I mean your marriage was kind of going nowhere, right?
01:07:37 Like you weren't doing big charitable works in the community. You weren't having kids. You just you just
01:07:42 Groundhog day in your way through the decades, right?
01:07:45 Yeah, yeah, that's true
01:07:50 And were you being honest with her I mean about whether you wanted children or not were you deferring to her
01:07:56 Because you didn't want her to be upset
01:08:00 Were you I mean were you honest did you have and you know, maybe this was the case
01:08:05 maybe this I don't want to put words in your mouth, but
01:08:07 did you
01:08:08 Want kids but defer to her?
01:08:18 And you already told me this by the way just so you know, yeah, I did
01:08:21 It was a real stab in the heart when she told you how happy she was to be pregnant, right?
01:08:27 I did. Yeah. Oh, that's right. So that means that you wanted kids
01:08:31 I did. Yeah, you're right and I did defer to her though. That's
01:08:36 Which
01:08:40 Right, so you saw your father deferring to your mother and you deferred because that's what you do you defer to women, right?
01:08:45 That's that's the message, right?
01:08:47 You can't win. They'll just escalate. They'll leave you so there's no bond, right? Because isn't this your fundamental complaint with your
01:08:54 Ex-wife there's no bond
01:08:57 Right. Yeah, but what was the bond with your parents?
01:08:59 Other than bullying and compliance, so that's not a bond
01:09:06 That's true. That's how they still yeah
01:09:09 They still are
01:09:11 Well in this level of fighting, I mean you you can't
01:09:14 You can't fight with someone if you have a bond
01:09:17 You might have disagreements or whatever
01:09:19 But you can't fundamentally fight with someone in this contemptuous aggressive hysterical way if you actually have a bond with that person
01:09:26 right
01:09:29 I mean that that would be like punching yourself in the face a bond is we are one flesh
01:09:34 I would no more fight with you than I would shop in a
01:09:40 Toothbrush handle and stick it into my own chest
01:09:47 right
01:09:49 I've never fought. I mean i've been married 21 years. I've never
01:09:52 Raised my voice or fought with my wife in that way. We've had we have the occasional disagreements or whatever, right? But
01:09:58 It's always handled with respect and right like the idea of just screaming at her like I I literally would rather
01:10:05 Cut the tip of a phalanges off or something like that. I just it's not a not a thing, right?
01:10:11 So you had you have to
01:10:15 Defer to women they run the show
01:10:17 They're in charge you do what they want
01:10:20 And how did that work out
01:10:24 The way
01:10:31 Feels is she used me until she didn't need me anymore
01:10:34 And how did she use it? What did she use you for?
01:10:37 Oh emotional
01:10:40 or in financial
01:10:41 stability
01:10:43 Oh, I mean so you paid you paid a lot of bills while she was going through school and getting herself started
01:10:48 Oh, yeah, and she
01:10:51 the last couple years of our marriage, she actually made more money than me, but I
01:10:55 Oh, man, this is bad. I oh, no, please don't tell me she made more money than you but you were still paying more
01:11:02 Oh
01:11:04 Yeah
01:11:06 Yeah, that's what was going on
01:11:08 Right now if you'd have said listen, we're not having kids you're making good money
01:11:13 I paid the majority of bills for the first three quarters of our relationship
01:11:16 It's time for you to step up and at least pay half. It'd be nice actually to pay a little bit more, right?
01:11:20 Yes, you knew you knew that she wasn't bonded with you
01:11:24 Right because someone who's bonded with you won't wait for you to make that statement, right?
01:11:31 No, she won't
01:11:34 She won't like I notice I notice everything my wife does and it's a lot
01:11:39 I didn't just come with a pair of magic drawers that fills back up with underwear or whatever like my wife does a lot
01:11:45 in in the relationship
01:11:48 and
01:11:49 I notice everything and I appreciate everything and I try to
01:11:52 You know, I I do I do a lot too
01:11:54 So like I mean, I don't feel like like it's exploitive or whatever and she notices what I do
01:11:59 but if she had been doing a lot in one particular area, I would
01:12:03 Mention that point it out try and find ways to balance things out or whatever because the last thing i'd want to do is for
01:12:09 Her to feel that she's been taken advantage of in any way
01:12:11 So she would sit there and say she would feel that wow that generosity. She'd thank you all the time
01:12:17 Thank you for keeping us afloat while i'm doing the school stuff
01:12:19 And she would make a vow to you to herself to god to say listen when if I start making more money, man
01:12:24 I'm gonna give you a break
01:12:26 I mean that's bonding right that's taking care of the other person that's being sensitive and thoughtful towards the other person, right?
01:12:34 but she didn't do any of that she just
01:12:36 What's yours is mine? What's mine is mine, right?
01:12:38 Right. That's I mean she did eventually start paying some of it, but I think we had already well
01:12:43 I didn't know but I think she had already separated
01:12:46 in her mind from me
01:12:48 and so
01:12:49 She began paying the mortgage which was still less than half but of the different bill that we had
01:12:56 generally
01:12:57 Okay. So what what the virtues if she were on the?
01:13:00 Call here. What were the virtues that she would say she most loved and admired in you?
01:13:06 Um
01:13:08 The once well, yes, I have a really good example for that that because she talked to my little sister about it
01:13:15 about how
01:13:18 I shouldn't say blessed but how much she appreciated
01:13:21 How patient I I am with her and I don't know if that's a virtue anymore
01:13:27 And what would she say and I would say to her give me an example of his patience with you and what would she say
01:13:35 Whenever
01:13:37 Oh, she would she had a better memory than me, uh, she would
01:13:43 Say
01:13:47 Anytime that she's
01:13:51 Extremely frustrated which happened. I mean
01:13:53 it wasn't every week, but it happened fairly regularly bring home work stressed and
01:13:59 Be stressed out and frustrated with me
01:14:03 I
01:14:05 well, I guess I learned this from my dad I was
01:14:07 very
01:14:09 calm and patient
01:14:11 I didn't
01:14:12 Net back. I was so sorry. What would what would she do or say when she'd come home stressed and upset?
01:14:17 Would she would she call you names? Would she yell like what happened?
01:14:21 She would she never yelled in our entire marriage. She never yelled at me, but she um would come home
01:14:28 and it would be
01:14:32 um
01:14:33 walk in the door in a huff so to speak and
01:14:36 If I tried to give her a hug or anything, she it was don't touch me
01:14:41 I don't want to
01:14:43 uh
01:14:44 I don't want
01:14:46 content right now and
01:14:48 Then the entire night and into the next day usually
01:14:52 She would just be completely
01:14:55 Annoyed with every thing I do including I mean, I remember one specific time
01:15:02 She was annoyed whenever I was breathing one time and I don't want that to be an analogy for
01:15:07 Anything you got that right before being poisoned, right?
01:15:11 Okay, so she would say don't touch me kind of stay away from me
01:15:17 Yeah. Yeah, very and and on what?
01:15:20 uh grounds did she
01:15:23 do that, I mean because
01:15:25 Like you you couldn't provide any comfort to her. I mean surely a hug and a foot rub and listening to her
01:15:32 Problems would be a big a big help. So what what does that mean?
01:15:35 Like stay away from me you're breathing too loud or like what was her justification?
01:15:39 Did she genuinely believe you were being annoying or intrusive?
01:15:43 I don't think so. I think it was more she was transferring the stress of
01:15:52 And frustrations from work and her interpersonal uh work relationships with
01:16:00 Everyone at work. Um
01:16:02 Too I don't know what this means. Sorry
01:16:04 Oh what were her justifications as to why this was a sensible good course of action or did she say?
01:16:10 I've really got to work on my impatience. I've really got to work on my snappiness
01:16:15 I've really got to work on my hostility like stay away from me. Don't touch me for an entire night and morning is
01:16:20 Shockingly cold and and cool. Yeah
01:16:24 That okay, actually you say that and she would actually tell me that she needs to be alone
01:16:30 because she can't stand to be around anyone including me and
01:16:35 uh, okay
01:16:38 And if I and it was she she would actually afterwards say forgive me
01:16:43 Not during so I just felt the cold shoulder
01:16:46 but
01:16:48 Afterwards, but would she would she then try and fix it or or like?
01:16:51 She would yeah for the most part. She would try to repair
01:16:55 Did she knew no, no prevent the behavior from recurring?
01:16:58 Like did she get to the root as to why she wants to be alone when she's upset?
01:17:02 And figure it out and and deal with it and reverse it
01:17:06 No, and
01:17:09 No, she never really did. She never told me and I asked but she
01:17:14 I maybe I asked at the wrong time. I don't know. It's that no, no, stop stop man. Stop despining yourself. Oh god
01:17:21 That's gross
01:17:23 It's gross. Maybe I didn't ask at the right time. No
01:17:25 You can ask whenever you want
01:17:28 I mean if human beings that you live with women, they're not bombs to be diffused
01:17:33 And if you get it wrong and lose an arm, that's your that's your fault
01:17:36 You should have cut the red wire not the blue wire
01:17:38 You can ask why are you being so cold? You can ask I don't even say I don't like it when you
01:17:42 Are hostile towards me because of what happens at work. That's unfair. That's wrong. That's not right
01:17:50 Right, right
01:17:51 You you have you you have the perfect right to assert everything that you want now
01:17:55 That doesn't mean other people have to do it
01:17:56 but you have the perfect right to assert everything you want and
01:17:58 In the relationship like I mean have you let me ask you this have you experienced it as rude when i've expressed?
01:18:05 Some exasperation at you not answering questions or giving me conclusions rather than facts
01:18:09 No, not at all. No, I mean it's not i'm expressing a preference and I hope that you will
01:18:15 um go along with my preference you don't have to right but
01:18:19 I mean i'm i'm asserting what I want to need
01:18:21 Just in this conversation. It's not it's not rude or negative
01:18:24 In fact, I hope you understand it comes from a place of really really really trying to help
01:18:28 Yeah, I do. I really do
01:18:31 Okay, so the idea that you're just not asking in the right way
01:18:35 I mean this is tone bullshit frank
01:18:38 Yeah, you know, it's like it's not what you said. It's how you said it. It's like nope. I don't I don't care
01:18:43 I'm, not tone policing myself
01:18:46 So that I can pick some lock that you've created between us
01:18:49 I'm not going to give you the excuse of tone policing because tone policing is just a way of saying shut up
01:18:57 I don't want to hear
01:18:59 I'm not going to deal with you. It's like well, no you're married you have to deal with each other
01:19:02 I mean, it's not an option to not deal with each other or tone
01:19:05 being the tone police or the tone nazi or whatever that's
01:19:08 Uh, that's no good. So this is when you say well, maybe I didn't ask her at the right time and it's like no no
01:19:14 No, this is not
01:19:16 This is not some
01:19:19 Mario times jumping game where you have to get all the right button mashing sequences in order to get through to the truth
01:19:25 She owes you the truth. Okay. So
01:19:28 When did she first when did this coldness or this distance or this hostility first emerge in the relationship?
01:19:33 it was about
01:19:37 I I had actually thought about this quite a bit when the coldness started it was I think it was about
01:19:44 two years after we were married, so
01:19:46 um
01:19:49 Really? I mean, i'm so this is like what five years after you four years after you met
01:19:53 So for four years, even though you lived together before you got married for four years for close to half a decade
01:19:59 She didn't have this
01:20:02 I want to be alone this hostility didn't have any of this dysfunction
01:20:06 and then it just
01:20:08 Came out. Yeah. Yeah, it just it
01:20:12 Yeah, it did and
01:20:14 I don't know if it's
01:20:17 It was whenever she started and okay
01:20:21 It's whenever she and her best friend which we kind of lived nearby
01:20:27 Kind of stopped talking to each other and she started
01:20:31 uh, she got a new best friend and I mean, I mean over a span of months, of course and
01:20:38 um
01:20:40 female friend
01:20:42 at work
01:20:43 uh, who was
01:20:45 If you stood the two side by side you could tell which one was
01:20:49 Uh had their life together and which one didn't and it wasn't her new best friend
01:20:53 um
01:20:55 Which I I did express
01:20:57 More than once. Um my concern about
01:21:03 I don't know if I should I know I shouldn't oh, she got a messed up best friend
01:21:07 He was pouring a bunch of poison in her ear, right? Oh my yes, I
01:21:12 Okay, so so then you know, you have to say no this you have to choose me
01:21:15 Like you have to choose me like you made a vow to me not to some randiwood work
01:21:21 Yeah. Yeah, and instead I
01:21:24 You express some concern then you let it go, right?
01:21:29 Yeah, I did I did
01:21:31 Exactly
01:21:33 Now, of course the problem is not the best friend. The problem is your wife
01:21:37 Because if the best friend starts pouring poison into her ear
01:21:41 Uh, particularly about you, what should your wife do?
01:21:44 She should yeah, she could divorce her best friend basically. Yeah, like i'm not no I don't I don't participate in these kinds of conversations
01:21:52 Yeah, no, no, my my husband is wonderful. I love him to death and i'm sorry that you don't have that but no i'm not
01:21:59 I'm, not doing that
01:22:00 Oh and up until that point that's actually
01:22:03 What I expected because I had seen her do that to other people
01:22:07 like tell them these things and
01:22:10 man
01:22:12 You know how good that makes a person feel
01:22:15 So
01:22:20 Whenever they say don't talk about
01:22:24 I am not usually this much of a cry
01:22:34 but
01:22:37 Whenever they say don't whenever she told somebody
01:22:40 Like maybe a year in there was some guy that I had gone to the bathroom or something and as I was coming back
01:22:46 Apparently he had said something about me
01:22:49 and she
01:22:51 Stood up and told him
01:22:53 You don't talk about
01:22:55 Him like that
01:22:57 And
01:23:00 Like
01:23:04 A feeling that gets you
01:23:06 No, I get that but it was unsustainable. So the big question is what abstract what abstract morals was she committed to?
01:23:12 In other words, what could you call her out on and she would have to surrender?
01:23:17 Right. So so for your mother, I mean if I were in your dad's shoes heaven help me if if your mother, right?
01:23:25 Then you'd have to say. Um
01:23:28 no, you you can't speak to me like that because
01:23:32 We made a vow to god to love to honor to obey right so
01:23:36 And and even if you know, yeah, I have the affair make the mistake, you know, I I have apologized I have um
01:23:43 I have begged for forgiveness and you have to forgive me now like that's the I've earned forgiveness
01:23:47 And so you you have to forgive me and and now of course if she's a real christian she'd say well, yeah, I I do
01:23:53 Right. Okay, I do
01:23:56 So so what abstract virtues?
01:24:00 Did your ex-wife manifest that you could if she deviated from those you could call her out on it?
01:24:07 And she would have to change her mind like I mean you can think of things like I say i'm an empiricist, right?
01:24:14 So if somebody provides me empirical information, like I had some skepticism about snaggle teeth coming from soft chewing
01:24:21 And and so on and I looked it up and lo and behold, there's a lot of scientific evidence
01:24:27 So I admitted that uh on the next show and you know when I got something wrong about the movie joker
01:24:33 um
01:24:35 And I went to watch it again and I said, yep
01:24:37 You're absolutely right because i'm an empiricist
01:24:38 So when people say look the evidence goes against what you're saying and they provide me the evidence
01:24:42 I have to conform obviously, right? I mean that's that so I mean there's one of a million standards that people can
01:24:48 Hold me too. So what standards?
01:24:51 Did your
01:24:54 ex-wife have
01:24:56 That you could hold her to and she would have to submit to not to you but to the standards
01:25:00 uh to standards it
01:25:03 she was
01:25:05 Also, um
01:25:08 Maybe this is why I
01:25:13 thought
01:25:15 Honestly as a virtue, but she
01:25:17 She at least gave lip service to
01:25:20 No, no
01:25:21 I mean everyone gives who cares about lip service, right?
01:25:23 But what were the standards where she could be?
01:25:26 In some emotional state and you could say
01:25:29 Right. No
01:25:32 Like like when she's distant right and and you say what's going on
01:25:36 And she says nothing and you say no no, no, look, I know something's going on
01:25:40 We did promise to tell each other the truth
01:25:43 Please sit down and tell me the truth and she'd say okay. Well, I have to conform to these these abstract values
01:25:49 Okay, I have I have like the could you ever reference the vows that you made or whatever it is, right?
01:25:53 Yes, like what what could you do that would alter her behavior by appealing to a pencil?
01:25:58 That um, in fact, it's what you just said if I
01:26:02 If I laid out
01:26:05 I had to be fairly structured about it. But if I laid out say told her our vows and told her what we promised each other
01:26:14 then that would
01:26:16 That could sometimes sometimes it would um, I didn't do it. No. No, sometimes it's not a principle
01:26:22 Sometimes it's not a principle
01:26:25 What abstract hang on what abstract principles?
01:26:28 Did she surrender her will and autonomy to and could be called on?
01:26:34 And would change her behavior consistently now that doesn't mean perfectly, you know
01:26:38 Maybe one in 20 times or one in 10 times, maybe there's a hiccup or whatever, but that's what she aims for, right?
01:26:43 Oh
01:26:45 Well, I mean she didn't have the abstract principle called loyalty right because she was getting trashed or by a friend, right
01:26:58 She didn't have the abstract virtue called integrity or honesty because she cheated right
01:27:07 So what were the abstract
01:27:10 virtues
01:27:12 that she manifested
01:27:14 That was self-generated now occasionally we'll need reminders
01:27:18 of our
01:27:20 Virtues, but for the most part particularly by the time you get into your mid to late 20s
01:27:25 I mean you should have that kind of stuff down right? I mean you should kind of yeah, right
01:27:28 So, you know, I I respect property rights, you know
01:27:32 So if I if I say, uh, I want to go and steal that kid's bicycle
01:27:37 I'm just gonna say wait a minute. That's a violation of property rights. Oh, yeah, right. Okay, right. So what were her
01:27:44 Virtues that were self-generated that she had an obligation to conform to
01:27:49 well
01:27:52 I don't see because the the things right off the top of my head are not virtues. It's
01:28:01 She conformed to
01:28:07 Uh, what you call it pure pressure
01:28:09 Generally, but and by that I don't mean like that's the opposite of a virtue but okay
01:28:15 Yeah, it is the opposite but i'm trying to think of I thought maybe if I said that out loud it would
01:28:20 trigger
01:28:22 something and
01:28:24 Okay, so let's cut to the chase right there were no abstract virtues that she was committed to
01:28:28 Okay, so so you didn't choose her for her virtues which is why you couldn't think of one before right
01:28:37 So you chose a woman because she was pretty
01:28:39 And sexy and available and attracted to you you you chose her for
01:28:45 kind of base animalistic reasons
01:28:48 You didn't choose her for her virtues and lo and behold she turned out to not be virtuous, right
01:28:55 So, yeah, fundamentally you chose her and listen brother we've all been there
01:29:02 This is not i'm not preaching from any high pillar here. We've all been there
01:29:06 But you lie to yourself about why she was in your life
01:29:09 You told yourself it was because of her virtues or her kindness or her sweetness or her this or her support
01:29:14 No, it's because she was pretty unavailable and liked you
01:29:16 And it's it's the self-deception that gets us you you think you've been betrayed
01:29:25 But you can't be betrayed unless you betray yourself first
01:29:30 And unfortunately, you didn't have people in your life
01:29:33 Who could tell you the truth or they chose not to tell you the truth?
01:29:39 I mean, what do you what are your sisters and your mother gonna say? She seems a little unstable. Yeah, right. Yeah
01:29:44 What's your dad gonna say? Well
01:29:47 I'm gonna defer to you so you can defer to her because I defer to everyone
01:29:53 Oh
01:29:58 I'm, not laughing because it well, don't ask me to make a decision that goes against the cult of submission
01:30:04 So no one and then you know, you don't you don't call me right because
01:30:10 right and
01:30:12 I regret that more than
01:30:14 Anything. Well now you could at least you're calling me now, right? At least you're calling me. Yeah
01:30:18 A little bit late. Well, no, actually I guess no. No, it's not too late. No, no
01:30:23 You are you haven't taken custody of another man's child
01:30:26 Yeah
01:30:28 Yeah, that's true. Okay. So why why is your ex and her boy toy? Why why are they not together what happened?
01:30:36 uh
01:30:38 From when I what she told me
01:30:40 It's kind of ironic is
01:30:45 He doesn't really know he just left after she gave birth and how poetic
01:30:51 Yeah, that's so after she gave birth. He ghosted her
01:30:56 Uh, basically, I think they are communicating enough where he can come get his things from her house
01:31:02 But wait, wait, so so she left you for this guy, right more or less. Oh, no. Yeah
01:31:09 Trick out about this part. She left you for this guy
01:31:13 And then he ghosted her
01:31:16 Oh, yeah. Yeah
01:31:18 Now how old is the kid now?
01:31:20 Uh, just a few months I think october was the first
01:31:25 Okay, and who's raising the child is she on mat leave
01:31:29 um
01:31:31 Yeah right now she is actually good. Yeah right now
01:31:33 And is there any plan to get child support or anything from the guy or I guess he's he's gone, right?
01:31:41 Uh, he's gone. She
01:31:44 She didn't say I just I'd be honest. She didn't say I
01:31:52 Knowing her ago. I don't think so. I don't think she'll okay. So what is it?
01:31:57 What what are the what are the impulses that you have?
01:32:00 is to go and rescue her again and to raise another man's child and
01:32:04 You know
01:32:07 after this conversation
01:32:09 so far
01:32:11 Those impulses are starting to tie down pretty hard. So
01:32:14 but that was my initial impulse was she
01:32:21 The text message she sent about it it was
01:32:23 She said she was in the darkest place she's ever been
01:32:28 and
01:32:30 I mean it was basically
01:32:32 I don't know if it was fabricated, but it was a transfer help and my instant reaction. Well, hang on
01:32:37 So she said she's in the darkest place she's ever been
01:32:40 yeah
01:32:42 and
01:32:43 What else I mean did she indicate that she wants you to?
01:32:46 Do something or is that kind of implicit?
01:32:50 um, she didn't
01:32:52 directly indicate it but I
01:32:54 I think it was implicit that it
01:32:57 Yeah, I believe it was. Um, in fact
01:33:00 I've got my phone right here. I can tell you
01:33:04 Yeah
01:33:07 Sorry, I mean no, it's fine
01:33:10 Sometimes I don't know if I can even think wait
01:33:19 Oh
01:33:21 Oh, um
01:33:29 Hold on i'm gonna go back one more
01:33:31 I have a lot of I wish thought this is her
01:33:34 But i've been trying not to think of those thoughts. I wish I had more words of wisdom
01:33:39 I just
01:33:42 Oh, no, i'm, sorry, that's also
01:33:45 that was just a
01:33:48 I mean, okay. I'm not gonna go through all that. She she didn't there's a lot of III there
01:33:53 Yeah, that's
01:33:56 uh
01:33:58 She basically said that she regrets
01:34:00 Um
01:34:04 The evil that she has visited upon the world
01:34:07 She regrets the evil she has visited upon the world
01:34:11 Because of what she did to me
01:34:14 Wait, wait, wait, has she apologized to you for breaking your heart?
01:34:18 She did. Yeah
01:34:21 And what did she say?
01:34:23 She said that
01:34:26 Um, she knows that it's not forgivable and I
01:34:32 Of course i'm the one that will forgive whatever but she says not forgive more and she can't
01:34:41 uh
01:34:45 Uh, sorry
01:34:47 Whenever she told me that she cheated on me
01:34:50 she was
01:34:52 Telling me that we need to separate
01:34:54 Because what she did is not forgivable
01:34:57 and I tried to talk her out of it then and there but she
01:35:00 Told me that she was sorry
01:35:03 And she i'm sorry, but she was leaving you to be with this guy, right?
01:35:07 Uh, well at that time it wasn't to be with him. It was just to get away from me
01:35:13 And I had a way. Sorry. How do you how do you know?
01:35:16 uh
01:35:18 Oh, oh
01:35:20 Uh, because she said so no because we I we actually did say but just not to me. Um
01:35:28 We shared uh email accounts and by default or by extension
01:35:36 um
01:35:39 I had access to oh man. This is not a good thing to admit, but I had access to her text messages would show up
01:35:47 On our computer on the computer the family computer so to speak and uh
01:35:54 So I of course
01:35:57 Read them and so she was telling her best friend the one that was not so savory
01:36:02 That she needs to stay with her
01:36:05 Because she can't
01:36:07 She's having a hard time living with what she has done
01:36:13 And
01:36:17 I told well and what ended up happening though was I left instead and I told her to stay in the house
01:36:23 and oh, this is gonna sound like a bad decision, but I went and
01:36:27 Stayed in my sister my older sister's basement for a while
01:36:31 until uh, she finally decided to
01:36:36 We were getting divorced
01:36:38 Sorry, i'm i'm
01:36:40 If we're going to go into the time frame of the cheating
01:36:42 I don't like you're really fast forwarding and stopping at a variety of places here that don't make any sense to me
01:36:48 Okay. Uh, okay. So so let's just we're just wondering so did she tell you what did you find out?
01:36:54 No, she told me
01:36:57 And what did she say? She said i'm sleeping with another guy
01:37:00 Uh, she said she
01:37:03 cheated on me
01:37:05 um
01:37:06 And that she can't
01:37:08 We're not gonna work out me and her
01:37:11 Because she can't live with that. Like she can't live with what she's done
01:37:16 and
01:37:18 Be still about me
01:37:20 Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was yeah, I mean I I don't feel I this I that right?
01:37:25 Okay, so she's lying about all that she just wants to go and be with the other guy
01:37:31 Right, yeah, and that's okay. So hang on so she tells you she's cheating on you
01:37:35 and she says at the same time that she wants to
01:37:39 divorce, right
01:37:41 Right, okay
01:37:44 And then
01:37:47 Does she um, there's no negotiation about that is that right? Oh, no, no. Yeah, no negotiation that that's what broke me was
01:37:55 We always did actually I mean, well
01:37:59 Okay, never mind. I won't go into that. Okay, so there's no negotiation
01:38:02 And then like I assume you're sleeping in separate rooms or separate beds and then how long until she moves out
01:38:08 um, oh
01:38:11 This is the part, uh, no you moved out you moved out. I moved out. Yeah, that's and now why did why did she move out?
01:38:18 Um, why is her shit not all over the front lawn help me understand oh man
01:38:23 That's
01:38:27 Something I won't live down. I don't
01:38:29 because I
01:38:31 Believed her whenever even though now I know I believed her whenever she said we just need space
01:38:36 Wait, wait, sorry
01:38:39 Did she say she wants a divorce or did she say you just need space to repair like I don't understand
01:38:44 She said we're not working out and I asked her I guess I didn't include my side of the conversation. Um, I asked her
01:38:50 What do you mean you want a divorce and she said she didn't know
01:38:54 and
01:38:57 Like now I know me she did know but
01:38:59 She said let's take a month apart
01:39:03 And uh, then we will come back together and decide
01:39:08 um
01:39:11 So she's jimmy she's running the she's running the whole show here, right? Yeah, she was running the whole show
01:39:17 And what did you want to do want
01:39:21 I
01:39:23 Wanted her to accept my forgiveness
01:39:31 I'm sorry. Say again this day
01:39:35 I'm, sorry
01:39:37 I wanted her to accept my forgiveness
01:39:39 And we don't separate
01:39:42 Uh
01:39:45 I didn't see it as something that we couldn't get over
01:39:49 But
01:39:50 Or get past or you know works through
01:39:52 and
01:39:54 Sorry, what what does it mean to to work through like what does she do to earn your forgiveness?
01:39:58 Oh
01:40:01 well
01:40:03 I mean
01:40:04 Biblically, I I you were christian. You're a christian, right? No. No, i'm not. Okay. You were raised that way though, right?
01:40:10 I was right. Of course. Yeah father's a pastor. Yeah, it's like i'm psychic
01:40:15 Um, okay, but but you do you do accept that people do need to earn forgiveness, right? Oh, yeah
01:40:20 Yeah. Okay. So what did she do to earn your forgiveness?
01:40:24 nothing, I
01:40:27 I understand but what does it mean to say?
01:40:29 That I wanted her to accept my forgiveness like you're chasing her trying to get her to do something when she wronged you this bad
01:40:36 Yeah, I guess I was
01:40:44 But oh man
01:40:46 True so I mean look maybe this is a modern thing, right? But it seems to me like you just
01:40:53 You just don't have any power
01:40:56 no, no authority no power like all you can do is is beg and plead and cross your fingers and hope and
01:41:03 pray and right
01:41:06 Why why why why do you have no
01:41:13 Power or authority or
01:41:15 I think
01:41:18 What was modeled I guess I I
01:41:21 Was modeled for me growing up so
01:41:25 I just
01:41:32 It's easy to not have power. No, it's not because it was modeled. I mean was was hitting children modeled for me growing up
01:41:40 No
01:41:42 It's because I don't know I don't know I don't know how blunt I should be here to be honest. Oh, I don't know you can
01:41:48 You can
01:41:54 Whatever
01:41:59 You can be as blunt as you want because no, no, it's it's you you have to make that decision
01:42:04 Because it's gonna hurt a little
01:42:07 Okay
01:42:08 um
01:42:10 Go ahead. I'll
01:42:11 It's not because okay. It's not because of what was modeled
01:42:14 It's because you got sucked into your dad's noble world of self-pity and you can't criticize what was modeled
01:42:20 But your dad cucks to your mom
01:42:24 And because you're close to your dad and and you you worship your dad and you can't criticize that so it's not because
01:42:30 It was modeled to you. It's because you
01:42:32 Won't criticize it
01:42:35 Right. You won't save your dad. How dare you?
01:42:39 Raise me and our siblings my siblings
01:42:41 In this cucked spineless defer to everything have no authority anti-biblical worldview and you still call yourself a preacher
01:42:50 You are supposed to be the head of the household
01:42:55 How dare you give up the ghost and then play victim to me
01:43:02 How dare you give up any semblance of leadership in this family
01:43:09 And demand that I go along with this
01:43:12 How dare you not encourage me to exercise any authority in my relationships because you're just too damn scared to exercise them in your relationships
01:43:22 It's not because of what was modeled it's because you haven't criticized what was modeled
01:43:37 I can
01:43:39 Yeah
01:43:45 I can see that clearly. Oh
01:43:51 He gave up the ghost he gave up the leadership
01:43:57 What's really messed up is like deep down inside
01:44:01 I think I already know that
01:44:06 but
01:44:08 And because things are so out of whack in your family you can't get any good advice
01:44:20 It's hard to have nobody yes it is. Yes it is
01:44:34 I think that's why I held on to her so tightly
01:44:39 Because I already knew pretty knew that my dad's I already knew I just
01:44:54 Oh man
01:44:59 It's just it's just hard
01:45:03 Because I know that's insane
01:45:05 I moved away from the town that she's in now and
01:45:09 I didn't we didn't get there yet as a timeline, but
01:45:12 Uh, I moved away
01:45:16 To a town where I know nobody
01:45:18 Nothing and i'm far enough away
01:45:23 This one i'm far enough away from everyone that I know but don't respect
01:45:33 Me that I don't have to be around them. I still have this mythology in my head
01:45:40 Yeah
01:45:48 Listen, this is what I want you to really get is that
01:45:50 No disaster in your life is ever singular. It's never just you it's never just her
01:45:57 It's a community
01:45:59 Like we're social animals
01:46:02 We're social animals
01:46:04 which means
01:46:06 We you know, our eyes are in the front of our head. We can't see behind us. We need people
01:46:10 To check us. We need people to review us. We need people to tell us the truth. We need people to watch our backs
01:46:15 Everything that happened to you happened with the full participation of everyone around you
01:46:23 Everyone around you is involved
01:46:29 In your disasters
01:46:31 And and what happens though is we we kind of go all singular we get all
01:46:36 individualistic when we get wounded and we're like well I this and I should have done that and I asked her at the wrong time and
01:46:42 You know, we just have regrets and we just it's like no no, no
01:46:46 People gotta watch their backs
01:46:50 Everyone in your life
01:46:54 Friends immediate family extended family everyone in your life who claims to care about you is intimately wrapped up
01:47:01 In this mess and they are responsible as well
01:47:05 And in fact in many ways
01:47:08 They're more responsible
01:47:10 You know like if you and I go hunting for boar and we're back to back and you're supposed to be
01:47:15 Watching to see if a boar attacks us from behind and then a boar more mauls us
01:47:19 Because you were on your phone
01:47:22 Is that my fault?
01:47:24 No
01:47:25 Well, it's my fault. I guess if I keep wearing boar hunting with you, you keep getting my legs gouged
01:47:30 But people have got to watch your back
01:47:33 Yeah
01:47:38 It's everyone's fault that this happened
01:47:42 And yeah, you've got a right to be frustrated but yourself I get all of that
01:47:46 But everyone knows like do you know why male sexual desire has gotten so high?
01:47:54 Right male sexual desire is is it you know, it's a crazy force of nature, right?
01:47:57 So male sexual desire the only reason that male sexual desire
01:48:01 has been
01:48:03 Allowed evolutionarily speaking to grow so high
01:48:05 It's because we're supposed to have a whole bunch of people around us who are going to punch us in the nads
01:48:10 If we're heading in the wrong direction
01:48:13 Yeah
01:48:16 Like disable us
01:48:19 Right. Well, that would do it take us away
01:48:23 Take us away
01:48:25 Oh and nobody did that
01:48:29 No
01:48:32 Not or you were absolutely isolated
01:48:34 And you didn't even have the unifying
01:48:37 fabric of principles between you and your ex
01:48:41 You chose her out of need
01:48:50 And you stayed with her out of blindness and it turns out you chose her out of need and a lack of commitment to virtue
01:48:55 turns out
01:48:58 That she when she needed someone else more
01:49:01 She went there
01:49:04 But you went with her out of virtue
01:49:06 You were with her out of desire and need
01:49:09 But then when some other guy decided or needed her more she just goes with that
01:49:15 But that's the danger of that kind of principle. You can't trust anyone who's not in your life because of principles
01:49:21 Because
01:49:25 What are they making their decisions on whim?
01:49:27 Peer pressure some oh your wife happens to meet some new friend. Some new friend has some malign influence
01:49:33 Oh, she happens to meet some guy who thinks she's super hot. Well, she'll just gravitate towards that
01:49:37 Right. Yeah
01:49:39 Yeah, and
01:49:43 I imagine she grabbed it that new friend
01:49:46 for a reason
01:49:49 Well, who knows?
01:49:51 Who knows but you know her friend her friend probably latched onto her
01:49:54 Because her friend wanted to do some damage and saw someone happy or relatively happy
01:49:59 Oh, yeah
01:50:01 So yeah, yeah her friend but her friend is like no you gotta come for lunch with me
01:50:04 And you're like, oh you've got to date me
01:50:07 No, you've got to marry me
01:50:09 Yeah
01:50:12 And your mom is like no you gotta come spend time with me and everyone's just bouncing around
01:50:15 off other people's needs
01:50:18 And and your your mom with the church elders is being bullied by them in order to bully your dad, right?
01:50:24 They're sowing the seeds of discontent and hostility and she cheats on your dad with them emotionally
01:50:29 And then your dad cheats at least that was years
01:50:31 I assume that that went on for years
01:50:33 Suppose your dad only cheated a couple of times with some other woman and then he gets all in the rain
01:50:37 Of fire and he can't stand up for himself, right?
01:50:40 That's true. Yeah
01:50:42 In in in every relationship like okay, so you make you're 100% responsible for what you do in a relationship
01:50:51 But nothing in the relationship is 100% your fault
01:50:53 Right
01:50:57 Your father encouraged your mother's bullying by submitting to her aggression
01:51:09 And that's not loving no that's not caring
01:51:12 I think and a child knows that if I knew that then
01:51:19 Yes, you did
01:51:21 It's also not loving for your mother to traumatize her children seriously traumatize her children
01:51:27 by
01:51:29 viciously
01:51:31 Bullying and verbally abusing your father
01:51:36 That's horrible and selfish and vicious
01:51:38 Right
01:51:43 Yeah very much
01:51:45 Now
01:51:50 What do you need
01:51:52 From
01:51:54 a partner well
01:51:56 When she didn't need you she left now, she needs you and she's half inviting you back but
01:52:02 without taking full responsibility
01:52:06 For betraying
01:52:08 But you also betrayed her by pretending she had all these virtues because she was hot and available
01:52:14 Right, yeah
01:52:18 So you need to just commit to abstract standards of virtue and demand that of others everyone everyone
01:52:25 Yeah
01:52:28 Everyone
01:52:29 Who's not everyone who's in your life? Who's not virtuous?
01:52:33 Is working for your destruction?
01:52:35 Everybody in your life who's not at least hot-footing it after the angels is consorting with devils
01:52:43 I'm sorry to sound like your dad. I know that's no no
01:52:48 I'll tell you what though. What no no, um, like what happens though like
01:52:54 You cut
01:53:00 Man you cut the non-virtuous people out
01:53:04 Wouldn't
01:53:08 I'll just live in my apartment alone at that point because
01:53:11 I mean i'd have to go out and find somebody obviously I find people that are virtuous but I man I look around
01:53:19 the landscape and
01:53:22 I meet people all the time. That was one thing that I was taught as a child to
01:53:28 not be afraid to talk to everybody and
01:53:30 I
01:53:33 But I don't know if i've met
01:53:35 Very many people that have very many virtues at least not where I live. I didn't well, come on, man
01:53:41 I don't know how intelligent someone is who speaks japanese if I don't speak japanese
01:53:46 So if you're not manifesting these virtues, how are you supposed to find these virtuous people?
01:53:51 How are they supposed to find you you look like everyone else?
01:53:53 Oh, yeah, that's right, man
01:53:57 That's right, I remember I remember
01:54:00 Hearing you say this before I forgot
01:54:04 I I as you probably could tell I jump ahead in my mind to think too fast sometimes but
01:54:11 I try to jump to the end
01:54:14 rather than
01:54:16 And i've been trying to work on that as well, but
01:54:18 So regarding your ex yes
01:54:24 Pros
01:54:26 Pros and cons now there are pros of getting back together with her
01:54:32 Oh
01:54:35 I mean, you're not crazy. There are pros
01:54:37 Yeah
01:54:40 There are I mean you get to rescue the time investment you have in the relationship
01:54:44 Oh, yeah, you might get to have you might get to have kids with her now that that ice has been broken
01:54:50 So to speak maybe she'll want to have
01:54:52 uh kids
01:54:53 You'll deal with loneliness isolation. You'll have a sex life again, at least after she gets after whatever postpartum she's going through or whatever's happening
01:55:00 for her
01:55:03 So, I mean let's not kid ourselves there are some some real pluses right yeah, yeah, but
01:55:09 Man after after we've talked I this pluses aren't sounding as
01:55:17 Appetizing, uh, or as that was bad word to use. Um
01:55:24 It's not fine. It's fine. I get I get what you're saying
01:55:26 Now, what are the what are the major things that have made getting back to you with her less appealing?
01:55:32 Well, whenever you ask me what virtues did she have and I had this whole thought in my head, I mean
01:55:39 I had this mythology in my head that I realized after you asked that
01:55:43 Wasn't true
01:55:46 And that's why I was stuttering and stammering about it because I
01:55:50 I don't know
01:55:52 if she has
01:55:54 Any virtues that's I don't
01:55:57 Now she might have learned some through this process, I mean sometimes yeah when when people really
01:56:05 Baff up their lives. They can get a certain amount of humility
01:56:09 Out of that and a certain amount of virtue out of that that can happen that can happen. Yeah
01:56:14 That can happen but it doesn't sound like she's there
01:56:17 I think I think she still has the vanity that she's simply like
01:56:22 For me at least for me like you just you just have to surrender your will and your ego and your vanity
01:56:27 to
01:56:29 Virtues like to objective virtues. I mean she knows deep down. She did you wrong?
01:56:33 She betrayed you and she completely faffed up her life
01:56:37 Yeah, right because now she has a kid
01:56:40 She's depressed
01:56:43 As she says she's in the darkest place in her life
01:56:45 And she left a guy
01:56:47 Who really worshipped her?
01:56:49 to have a kid
01:56:51 with a guy
01:56:52 Who's ghosted her?
01:56:54 I mean that that really is about
01:56:57 And she did she hit 30 yet?
01:57:00 Uh, yeah, yeah, so now she's she's in her 30s and a single mom
01:57:05 Yeah, well, it's not not a year ago. She was the beloved wife of a loyal guy
01:57:09 Yeah
01:57:12 Right, like you couldn't have a more accelerated fall from grace if you took a tesla rocket and pointed it at the center of the earth
01:57:20 So
01:57:22 Maybe something like that could give someone real humility and say holy crap. Do I ever not trust myself?
01:57:28 Jesus take the wheel
01:57:31 I'm clearly making terrible decisions. I have to figure out why i'm messing things up so badly
01:57:36 But it doesn't sound it sounds like she's just taking your father's route of self-pity
01:57:41 Yeah
01:57:43 I'm so sad. I can't believe how much i've hurt you. I can't this i'm so it's so terrible
01:57:48 Oh, but I I it's just it's just more
01:57:51 Narcissistic self-pity in my amateur and humble opinion
01:57:55 Yeah, I don't know about amateur but yeah, that's
01:57:59 I I think you're I mean now that you've laid out
01:58:04 Why I couldn't think of these things before
01:58:07 Well, no, that's listen. Nobody. No, no, nobody can nobody can nobody can any more than we can see out the back of our heads
01:58:15 Okay. Yeah, that's true
01:58:18 No, nobody can you you can't I can't see these things in my life. You can I mean you need the 360 view
01:58:22 That's why with social animals, you know
01:58:24 The only reason why our eyes are in the front of our head is we have people to watch our backs
01:58:28 And seriously, I bet this is the only reason
01:58:30 Their eyes are in the front. There's a reason why we don't have like
01:58:33 the non-social creatures often have eyes
01:58:37 Like the lizards and all this sort of like they have eyes on the sides of their head because they don't have anybody watching
01:58:41 their backs
01:58:43 Yeah
01:58:47 So we we've developed blind spots because other people are watching our blind spots
01:58:52 So we can really focus on stuff and ignore a whole bunch of stuff because other people will point it out
01:58:57 Right
01:59:01 So you don't have those you don't have that safety net you don't have those people watching your back so
01:59:09 And neither does
01:59:11 Neither does your ex
01:59:13 Right
01:59:15 now i'm obviously bungeeing in here a little bit trying to watch your back and all of that but
01:59:18 As far as getting to back getting back together with your ex
01:59:22 Has she
01:59:27 Has she groveled in sorrow at what she did to you or is she just so upset that you feel the urge to comfort her?
01:59:34 uh
01:59:36 The latter she's I think it's more she's so upset that
01:59:41 She feel
01:59:42 The or I mean, I feel the urge to comfort her. Um, yeah
01:59:46 Like everybody who's been around a selfish person has gone through this experience where?
01:59:50 They upset you
01:59:52 And then you point it out and they collapse in on themselves and you end up comforting them
01:59:56 It's really it's a really manipulative shitty thing to do to someone
01:59:59 You know like you've heard these these role plays or whatever, right?
02:00:03 Mom, you did this and that wrong. Oh, I guess I was just the worst mother ever
02:00:07 I never did anything right and it's like, oh, no. No, it's like you got to go comfort that person
02:00:11 It's like it's a shitty manipulative tactic
02:00:13 That's incredibly selfish and destructive and it doesn't sound like she's just like I did you wrong. No defense
02:00:20 Don't focus on me. Let's focus on you. I want to ask you a hundred questions about what I did to you
02:00:25 Right. Yeah
02:00:28 Yeah, that's true she she doesn't have any of that that's I did ask her
02:00:37 If she was going to therapy because she also I forgot that she also mentioned that now she's exhibiting the same
02:00:43 Characteristics I described my mother and sisters as having as emotionally flying off the handle
02:00:49 and
02:00:52 I asked her if she got into therapy about it and she said yeah until she got better and then stopped and
02:00:57 Wait, when did she start flying having these meltdowns?
02:01:01 um
02:01:03 shortly before the birth of
02:01:07 her
02:01:09 And this is before the guy left
02:01:12 Yeah, yeah, okay see
02:01:16 Yeah, it was
02:01:20 Right shortly. So also a lot of people have meltdowns because they're battling their own conscience
02:01:25 Their conscience is kind of trying to yell at them to do something different or better
02:01:29 And they won't listen. So a lot of times the meltdowns are
02:01:33 to cover up
02:01:37 An attack of a bad conscience and of course as long as you cover it up and don't deal with it and don't solve it
02:01:41 the
02:01:42 Attacks will just get worse like your mother's
02:01:44 Uh hostility is is in part her instability is in part because of her own bad conscience
02:01:50 And you can't fix that in others, I mean you can tell them uh, yeah you have reasons to have a bad conscience
02:01:57 um, but you know, you can't you can't take away the effects of a bad conscience any more than you can
02:02:01 you can't
02:02:04 You can't heal someone's bad conscience any more than you can digest their food for them, right?
02:02:08 And uh, she's gonna you know, she's gonna have to find some way to
02:02:17 Live with this now. The good news is she'll just talk herself into she was somehow justified
02:02:22 uh, and there was no way to know and then she'll just start inventing all the bad things that she can imagine you have
02:02:29 Having had done and and so she'll just talk herself into justification. So she's not going to suffer that long
02:02:35 Right. She just lied to herself as most people do and but then there's no recovery, right?
02:02:41 right and
02:02:44 yeah, that's that's uh
02:02:46 Kind of what I was I think that may have been what
02:02:51 Triggered the question in my head of is this a bad idea because I think the way I worded my email was
02:02:58 uh
02:03:00 It probably sounded like I was asking you to tell me it was a bad idea because I already probably
02:03:04 Subconsciously knew uh, well you you're just trying to find you you're trying to fight your way out of
02:03:11 Gynocentric slavery which is you know, honestly, this is the default position for men throughout history
02:03:19 Has been the worship of an enslavement to women
02:03:23 Because most men didn't reproduce throughout history and women got to pick and choose and we just had to please the women all that was
02:03:28 it
02:03:29 And brilliant we can say this is good or bad. It's just evolution. It's like saying whether is it good or bad
02:03:33 We have two legs. I don't know just what works, right? It's just what worked
02:03:37 so we have and and of course now with the family court system and and all of this
02:03:43 Allegation stuff and like it's gotten kind of crazy right really crazy
02:03:47 So men are scared and and i'm not saying that's entirely wrong. Of course not, right?
02:03:53 I mean, I I still think it's worth pursuing
02:03:54 You've got to try and find the right woman but and it's pretty simple
02:03:57 Does the woman have abstract moral standards that she submits to independent of you?
02:04:01 Right, does she have abstract moral standards?
02:04:04 Now therapy culture doesn't give you that because it just gives you an eye me me eye wallowing your own feelings for the most part
02:04:10 Right, but philosophy gives you that so abstract moral standards that you have to subject yourself to but if the woman doesn't have these things
02:04:17 Oh, what are your values? What are your virtues?
02:04:19 Oh, there are this that and the other oh, can you tell me you like tell me a time when it's been really
02:04:23 Tough for you to achieve that or tell me a time where you think you failed that I mean, you know
02:04:27 These are all reasonable
02:04:29 filtering questions to to ask someone
02:04:31 And if it's you know, if it's just general goop of like well, you know
02:04:34 I try to be thoughtful and considerate and nice and this is like, you know, come on
02:04:37 That's not a that's not a moral standard. That's a hallmark card, right? So
02:04:41 You know what because everybody who's who's got a moral standard has a fair number of scars
02:04:46 Right. I mean I had to tell the truth with reason and evidence of the world got a little beaten up for that from time
02:04:51 to time
02:04:52 so, uh, it's and it's something somebody with real morals isn't going to be offended by that because you know,
02:04:59 You say well, what do you have a moral standards? Are you saying I don't have any moral standards?
02:05:01 It's like no i'm just asking you to tell me
02:05:03 You know, uh, tell me what they are so I can understand where you're coming from because I you know
02:05:08 I can't pair bond. I can only pair bond with morality. I can't pair bond with emotions or preferences or sex or whatever, right? So
02:05:15 Right pair bonding is only moral. There's only morals. That's it because the only thing that can have you trust someone
02:05:20 so
02:05:22 um
02:05:23 Yeah, I mean so going forward just filter by filter by virtues
02:05:26 Filter by virtues if someone says to me what are your moral standards and you know, how's it been tough to?
02:05:31 Implement them. It's like yeah, i'm i'll talk about that from here to eternity. I'm not offended by that
02:05:37 It's a great question to ask but you know people without moral standards will be offended and upset and it's like, okay
02:05:42 Well enjoy your hedonism. It's uh, it's horrible
02:05:45 So filter out. Yeah, so it doesn't sound like she's finding her wise way to
02:05:51 to virtue it sounds like she's
02:05:54 hurt and wounded
02:05:55 and
02:05:56 When your life messes up you have to take a long hard look in the mirror and say well, what did I do?
02:06:00 What did I do and who did I hurt?
02:06:03 Right, and she knows she's hurt you. She knows she made exactly the wrong decision and it comes down to does she have
02:06:09 the humility and the wisdom
02:06:12 To admit that she completely screwed up
02:06:14 And did just about the worst thing possible
02:06:16 And whatever
02:06:19 Principles or whatever things she's using to guide her life or leading her off a cliff
02:06:23 Does she have the humility to question that to say, you know what?
02:06:27 i'm
02:06:28 in a state of
02:06:30 absolute
02:06:32 Self
02:06:33 Um, it's not it's like i'm in an absolute blank slate. I don't know anything. I have to assume I know nothing
02:06:41 right like that line from
02:06:43 the movie like if all your
02:06:45 Principles got you here of what you see your principles
02:06:47 So everything that she did in her life got her to this place
02:06:50 And if she's not sitting there in horror at the principles that led her here and willing to attack and undermine
02:06:56 Every single one of them for the sake of her her child right for the sake of her child, right?
02:07:01 Right. I mean if you're now a single mom and the dad ghosted you and you left a loyal husband for that
02:07:08 That pile of shit then you gotta sort this stuff out. Otherwise, it's going to replicate on your kid
02:07:12 Yeah, oh
02:07:16 Okay. Yeah, that's right. I mean that
02:07:18 I don't mean to sound like a sap, but that was one of my first thoughts whenever she was telling me
02:07:23 How low she was was that?
02:07:26 Poor kid. I man hope
02:07:29 I don't know. I all I can do is hope because I can't
02:07:34 I don't know. I that's I don't want him that her child didn't grow up
02:07:39 In a horrible way even though it's not mine, I know it's not you know, it's like one of those things I
02:07:45 But at the same time I don't want any kids to
02:07:49 That was another it wasn't really yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't care man stop thinking about everyone else
02:07:56 Oh, like that's the last thing you need to do our kids and her her life and her happiness
02:08:04 Right because all that's going to do is attract more narcissists to you
02:08:07 Yeah
02:08:09 No, what are you your life?
02:08:11 I mean your life man
02:08:13 You dodged a bullet you dodged a bullet now. You can run back into the firing range with
02:08:19 Mariachi sauce on your chest or whatever, right? But uh, you know you you
02:08:25 You managed to so she had the kid with someone else
02:08:28 And and he and this is this is her judgment. This is her judgment
02:08:34 Like we don't have better decisions than our worst decisions
02:08:37 Do you see what I mean?
02:08:39 Yeah, like we don't we don't say, you know, some guy murders some guy we don't say well, you know for most of his life
02:08:44 He didn't kill anyone
02:08:46 It's like no no that that bad decision that's who you are now like so we don't have better decisions than our worst decisions
02:08:54 and she
02:08:56 Pursued a guy out of her marriage
02:08:58 Who's a real bastard right knocks up a woman ghosts her
02:09:01 Then puts all the shit on society's now gonna have to ever society's gonna have to deal with it
02:09:06 So he's a real bastard, right? I mean, he's a real yeah
02:09:09 He's a real asshole right a real bastard knocks up a woman. Well, first of all sleeps with the woman. He knows she's married
02:09:16 and then
02:09:18 Knocks her up and then the bails on her. So he's a total in my view just a total sociopath or whatever
02:09:23 Right, so it's totally evil evil guy
02:09:26 So that's who she wants. So that's that's that's now her decision. That's what's defined her life
02:09:30 And so you got you you extracted yourself from someone who makes these kinds of decisions
02:09:38 uh, holy crap
02:09:41 Yeah
02:09:44 You know, it's like the shark that half chews through the cage and you get back on the boat and you're like well
02:09:48 It could still be hungry
02:09:50 I mean, come on. I got I got a little muffin top here. Maybe you'll just do that part off. It'd be like lipo
02:09:56 Yeah
02:09:58 No, you got out of the orbit of somebody who is willing to make these kinds of decisions and this wasn't like some
02:10:03 Bizarre accident thing. This was like a conscious. No, this is why I was like, oh she accidentally got pregnant. It's like no she didn't
02:10:10 Yeah, no, she didn't
02:10:13 Yeah
02:10:17 So, yeah, that's you know, you you dodged a bullet you you got out of the shark infested waters and you know, it's time to
02:10:25 Time to move on and and but you know what you need to do is is
02:10:28 you just need to know what what happened that got you there that got you into that like you just
02:10:33 Had that bullet, you know five bullets graze graze your skull like what what neighborhood are you in?
02:10:39 What company are you keeping that this is happening and you are not choosing women based upon
02:10:45 Empirical virtues not just stated virtues, but empirical virtues
02:10:49 And yeah, as long as you don't have that requirement
02:10:52 You're just always in danger because the only thing that can protect you from other people is their integrity. That's the only thing
02:10:57 Life is just this incredibly
02:11:00 thin web
02:11:02 of
02:11:03 Catastrophe and the only thing the only thing
02:11:06 That keeps you safe around other people is their integrity and the only thing that keeps them safe around you is your integrity
02:11:11 This woman didn't have it. You didn't have it for most of the relationship. Hopefully you can get it now
02:11:16 I'm sure you can but that's the this it's just basic self-protection. It's the only thing that keeps you safe
02:11:22 Is other people's virtue and integrity and if that's not there
02:11:25 You're just dancing on the edge of a volcano sooner or later man. Either something comes out or you go in
02:11:32 Right and that's so
02:11:36 Whoo, okay, that's what i'm and this is the hard part is
02:11:42 I spent a whole year not working on
02:11:46 exactly that my own personal
02:11:51 well, I mean, I guess I kind of did I
02:11:53 But not not in it. Well, come on. I mean I I we got to end here because it's almost three hours
02:11:58 But okay, but i'll tell you this so so and as far as like so, why didn't you call me? Why didn't you call me?
02:12:03 Well, the reason you didn't call me is there's people in your life who want to exploit you and they don't want you calling me
02:12:08 Why did you drop out of philosophy because there's people in your life who don't benefit from you pursuing philosophy?
02:12:13 From you pursuing integrity and virtue and and all of that kind of good stuff
02:12:18 So again, nothing wrong with that. It's just a sort of basic a basic fact
02:12:22 But you say oh, well, I spent a year, but that's just you looking at yourself in isolation
02:12:27 You have to look at okay. Why didn't you pursue philosophy? Why didn't you call me? Why didn't you and that's fine?
02:12:32 I have no problem with the fact that you didn't
02:12:34 But don't just sit there and say well, I guess i'm just an idiot and I guess I just didn't do this and I get
02:12:38 No, no, no, because there are people in your life who don't want you to pursue philosophy
02:12:42 Of course, yeah, because that's going to cost them
02:12:47 If you if you get mad at people who didn't watch your back over this slow-moving disaster
02:12:51 That was fairly predictable from the very beginning. What are her stated virtues son?
02:12:57 What are her moral standards? Is she religious? No. Well, then where does she get her morality from?
02:13:02 If she is religious, okay, what moral standards does she actually manifest?
02:13:07 Well, your parents aren't going to want to ask you or grill you
02:13:11 on moral hypocrisy
02:13:14 Of course not
02:13:15 Yeah, that's that doesn't serve them
02:13:17 So, yeah, it's it's don't don't blame yourself
02:13:21 There are people in your life who want to exploit you and they don't want you
02:13:24 Discovering virtue. They don't want you asking tough moral questions. Of course, right? I mean that's
02:13:28 You know, the the con man doesn't want you doing a reference check. That's understood, right?
02:13:33 Right. Yeah
02:13:35 Yeah, that's true. So yeah, that's most of what I wanted to get across
02:13:38 Is there anything that you wanted to mention at to end here?
02:13:41 uh
02:13:43 No, not just thank you. I mean, thank you for taking my call. I like
02:13:48 I can't
02:13:50 Yeah, I can't say thank you enough. Um
02:13:53 Because this helped lay out the entire picture. I was looking at a corner of an abstract painting and
02:14:01 It helped a lot that's good. Well, that's what philosophy does is it does that major disorienting zoom at all right
02:14:09 But listen, then you keep me posted about how things are going
02:14:12 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, I really really appreciate your time today and uh, great great job on the call you did beautifully
02:14:18 Oh
02:14:19 Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thanks man. Take care. Bye. All right you too. Bye. Bye