It’s no secret that our climate is changing fast. From hurricanes to wildfires, those changes are impacting us more and more each year. In this episode of Unpacked by AFAR, senior news editor Michelle Baran shares her own experiences with climate anxiety, and talks with two experts about how we can find some peace—and travel with confidence.
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/q408j33
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
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Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/q408j33
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
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CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
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TravelTranscript
00:00 Hey, you're a thoughtful traveler, and we're a thoughtful destination.
00:07 In Asheville, we treasure our natural and wild places here in the stunning Blue Ridge
00:11 Mountains, and we appreciate visitors who share our values of stewardship and sustainability.
00:16 We invite you to explore the cultural legacy shaped by these high mountain peaks.
00:21 Be our guest.
00:22 Together, we can share adventures and preserve the natural beauty of Asheville.
00:27 Learn more at exploreasheville.com.
00:29 I'm Michelle Barron, Senior Travel News Editor here at AFAR, and this is Unpacked,
00:43 the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel every week.
00:49 Today we're talking about travel, climate change, and the anxiety the two can create.
00:54 I've always been a big warrior.
00:55 It's a blessing and a curse.
00:57 On the one hand, it means that I'm always looking out for others because I'm, well,
01:01 worried about them.
01:02 On the other hand, it can be a burden when thinking and writing about an issue such as
01:06 climate change, which is so massive, so challenging, and often so overwhelming.
01:11 I figured if I'm feeling extremely anxious and worried about climate change and the growing
01:16 severity of the climate disasters we face each year, I bet other travelers are too.
01:23 Today we're going to be talking with two experts who can help us warriors cope with
01:27 and manage the new normal of navigating travel in a climate-changing world.
01:31 First we'll hear from my wise and hilarious psychologist friend, Sanam Hafiz.
01:35 Sanam offers some great advice on how to manage our climate anxiety.
01:40 Then we'll hear from Paul Doucette, Regional Director of Security Intelligence and Assistance
01:44 for International SOS, a global health and security risk management firm.
01:49 That's a lot of words, but basically he helps people assess risk before traveling and get
01:54 the help they need if they run into trouble on the road.
01:57 He shares some super practical tips for how to translate our climate concerns into proactive
02:01 preparation and planning.
02:03 Knowledge is power, and by the end of both of these conversations, I felt I had been
02:07 given some amazing new tools to add to my climate change coping toolbox.
02:11 I hope they bring you some solace as well.
02:14 Let's get going.
02:16 Hello Sanam and welcome to Afar's Unpacked Podcast.
02:24 So before we get into what I'm sure is going to be a really insightful conversation about
02:29 climate change, travel, and how to cope with something I'm sure a lot of travelers grapple
02:33 with, which is climate anxiety, I thought it'd be fun to start by letting listeners
02:37 know about how you and I know each other and actually became lifelong friends.
02:41 Yeah, you're one of the best things that happened to me on my travels.
02:45 I always say that.
02:47 Oh, yeah, really?
02:49 Absolutely.
02:50 And what I love is that we're actually these two professional women, I'm a journalist,
02:56 a Polish Romanian journalist, you're Pakistani American neuropsychologist, but we met on
03:01 this kind of crazy cruise on the Mediterranean.
03:07 We were both newly single and we bonded over that experience.
03:11 Kind of, sort of single, like we were like in this weird gray area.
03:14 We bonded over that.
03:15 And then we came back to New York and we basically continued friend dating after that.
03:23 And yeah, we just, we really bonded over our relationship woes and everything we're going
03:29 through.
03:30 But over the years, as our personal problems became less of a mess, our conversations often
03:34 turned towards current events.
03:37 And we spent a good deal of the pandemic dissecting what was happening in the world around us.
03:42 And for both of us, it was a time when we realized on a really personal level, how much
03:46 a global crisis can affect our stress and anxiety levels.
03:49 So I was hoping you could describe what you and I both personally experienced during the
03:54 pandemic with hair loss.
03:56 I think overall, you and I were one of those people who took the pandemic seriously before
04:00 anyone else was really taking it seriously.
04:02 I think we talked about that.
04:03 You know, I was very fortunate that I was able to shift my work.
04:07 I mean, I had no idea how to go remote.
04:10 And so when we shut down, it was like building an airplane in the air, you know, trying to
04:14 figure things out.
04:16 But overall, I kind of felt that this is a much needed break.
04:19 I'm a neuropsychologist.
04:20 I was trying to put a positive spin on things.
04:22 And I was like, well, I'm fortunate that we have enough room where we can be at home and
04:27 be comfortable.
04:28 The kids were on Zoom for kindergarten.
04:30 So having two kindergartners, a pre-K at the time, actually not even kindergartners, on
04:35 Zoom was just such a weird thing.
04:37 And then patients were calling and leaving messages with the answering service.
04:41 No one knew what was happening.
04:43 But I was kind of like, "All right, this is kind of cool.
04:45 This is like a new way of doing things."
04:47 And, you know, I'm being super mom and super psychologist and doing interviews.
04:52 And I just met my boyfriend, now husband, at the time.
04:56 And so I also was fortunate enough to be quarantined with a partner, which was amazing.
05:04 And then as I was sort of congratulating myself, I found round patches of bald spots in my
05:11 head.
05:12 And I guess it shows how fortunate I am that that's how the pandemic hit me the hardest,
05:16 that I lost hair.
05:18 And it was so devastating.
05:20 Once I could get over the shock, the depression, the anxiety, the fear.
05:24 And it was very interesting.
05:26 A day after I found it, I got a text message from Michelle, from you, saying, "Hey, you
05:33 have any idea what this might be?"
05:35 Right.
05:36 And I think, you know, what's so interesting is that we're both really similar in the sense
05:42 that it's always like, "Okay, there's this situation going on, and we're going to go
05:47 to battle."
05:48 I think we're both generally pretty positive people in the sense, like, there's all these
05:53 challenges, but okay, we're going to pivot.
05:55 The kids are home, but we're going to make the best of the situation.
05:59 But we're also both empaths.
06:02 And I think that no matter how, quote, unquote, "under control" we had the situation, maybe
06:10 within our own households, the situation in the world was out of control.
06:16 And it was absolutely impossible for us to detach ourselves from the heartbreak of that,
06:24 because we were so tuned in with everything going on.
06:27 Even though maybe personally, we didn't feel like we were crying and breaking down, our
06:34 bodies basically told us how much we were hurting and how concerned we were, and how
06:40 stressful a situation that you have no control over can be.
06:45 And I bring this up because we're about to talk a little bit more about stress and anxiety.
06:49 And I think it's just so important to understand how we do internalize these things sometimes,
06:55 and maybe don't even realize how much we're internalizing them until something like this
06:59 happens.
07:00 And for me, it was like there was a hole on the top of my head, where I used to have hair.
07:04 So it was just a really striking thing that happened.
07:08 So what did you learn through that experience about the ways in which stress and anxiety
07:12 manifest themselves?
07:13 It was really an eye opener for me, because like I said, I kind of like go through life
07:18 congratulating myself on how well I handle things and how nothing really gets me down
07:23 for too long.
07:24 And it's sort of become not just my armor, but sort of like this accolade of bravery
07:29 of what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
07:32 And I have all these tools.
07:33 And it's funny, when I went to see my dermatologist, who ended up giving me these steroid shots,
07:37 and I said, "Dr. Dei, how did this happen to me?
07:40 I wasn't that stressed."
07:42 And she said, "Sonam, you know this better than I do.
07:44 The way your body perceives stress is not the way you think you're perceiving stress.
07:48 Your body has its own way of recognizing whether it's you not getting enough sleep, you're
07:54 not getting enough exercise, you're not getting enough sun, you're not getting enough downtime."
07:58 I realized I was just going all the time.
08:00 It was anywhere between doing interviews with public outlets, magazines, TV interviews,
08:06 but also making sure that my mom, my sons, myself, and my boyfriend who was often there,
08:12 that the five of us had something to eat.
08:15 And grocery shopping was like going to war.
08:18 I mean, how is that normal?
08:20 How is your body supposed to perceive any of that as anything close to normal?
08:26 So as the pandemic became less all-consuming over the course of the past year, and travelers
08:32 started to head back into the world, a lot of us began to refocus on another, in some
08:36 ways, arguably much larger challenge, which is climate change.
08:40 And this year, we had ample reminders of how bad global warming is and will continue to
08:45 be, ranging from devastating hurricanes in Florida and the Caribbean to one natural disaster
08:51 that hit particularly close to home for you this year.
08:54 And that was the heartbreaking flooding in Pakistan, where you and your family are from.
08:59 So what happened in Pakistan?
09:01 This level of flooding was really unheard of, unseen, and it devastated Pakistan.
09:08 Close to 1,800 people, and I'm pretty sure this is a conservative estimate, died in those
09:13 floods, 33 million people are displaced.
09:16 The damage is like $15 billion.
09:20 And I think what a lot of people don't know is when you think of Pakistan, you don't think
09:23 of glaciers, but outside of the polar regions, Pakistan has the greatest number of glaciers
09:30 of any other place on earth.
09:33 So all those glaciers are melting at an alarming rate, and they're causing this flooding.
09:39 And it was interesting because I'm very much in touch with family from Pakistan.
09:43 And after a few weeks, it seemed like everyone was like business as normal.
09:47 Everyone had just kind of gone back to work, back to school, back to life.
09:51 And I thought, so who are these people who are hurting?
09:53 And it was obviously, as anywhere in the world, it was the poor people and the people who
09:58 lived in areas that were untouched, out of harm's way, who had the money to sort of just
10:04 shelter till the storm passed.
10:08 Everyone went back to work.
10:09 And what's scary about this is just like with the COVID pandemic, the way I saw that coming,
10:15 you know, again, there are people who would call this catastrophizing, but that's what
10:18 they call any scientist or anyone who predicts, yes, there are things that are going to happen.
10:23 Will they necessarily happen in our lifetime?
10:25 Maybe not.
10:27 But there's still this weight of this is what we're leaving behind for our children, for
10:31 the next.
10:32 I mean, how is this going to work?
10:34 You know, your car breaks down, you can go get another car.
10:36 But when the earth breaks down, there's nothing else.
10:39 This is it.
10:40 Absolutely.
10:41 And, you know, much like with the pandemic, as you mentioned, I think that climate change
10:45 can be this very daunting and overwhelming issue for a lot of people.
10:49 And our responses to it vary from shutting down and not wanting to deal to being hyper
10:55 focused on it and wanting to do as much as we can.
10:57 I've also heard a lot of people describe a sense of hopelessness and helplessness around
11:02 the issue because they honestly just don't know how to make an impact or what to do to
11:06 help drive change.
11:07 And if I'm being honest, I feel this too.
11:09 As a mother, I have this deep guilt and concern about the world that we're leaving behind
11:14 for the next generation.
11:16 So I'm hoping we can unpack these feelings a little and maybe better understand the coping
11:20 mechanisms available to us as we move about the world.
11:23 So first of all, is it normal to feel completely overwhelmed by an issue like climate change?
11:29 Yeah, very much, because it's such an intangible issue.
11:33 Why is it that after all this time on earth, why has it sped up in the last 30, 40 years?
11:39 What can we do?
11:40 Is this even reversible?
11:41 At least when, let's say, there's a crisis like an earthquake or floods and you donate
11:45 money and you say, OK, even if this feeds one person, I'll feel good about that.
11:50 But with climate change, how do you contribute?
11:52 What do you do?
11:53 I think the other thing is just getting bogged down and thinking that you have to be this
11:57 environmental saint, which is impossible.
12:00 I used to drink, I used to have bottled water around and sparkling water, and I bought one
12:06 of those not soda stream.
12:07 I bought a different brand called Drink Mate and I make my own water.
12:12 And so I feel like, OK, you know what?
12:13 I'm no longer buying all these bottles.
12:15 But up until a couple of years ago, I was.
12:18 You can only make small changes that are pertinent to you, things that you know you contribute.
12:23 My husband and I, he installed one of those compostable bins.
12:27 And so all the food waste now goes in there.
12:29 And now I don't feel bad about throwing out, you know, peels or food that otherwise would
12:35 just become part of garbage.
12:36 I feel like it's going back into the earth.
12:38 So I think little changes, even though in the big picture, they're not even a drop in
12:43 the ocean.
12:44 I feel like they make me feel, OK, I'm doing what I can.
12:47 Right.
12:48 Like less out of control.
12:50 You obviously control your own decisions.
12:51 So if you can make decisions that you feel better about so that you at least feel like
12:56 you're not a huge part of the problem, then maybe that is a way to start to move forward
13:01 past some of those sort of overwhelming feelings that a lot of people can have.
13:05 One thing that I've heard climate anxiety compared to is a form of grief and people
13:09 feel this sort of extreme sense of grief for the planet.
13:13 It seems to me like one of the first and best ways to address grief is to kind of identify
13:17 that those are the emotions that you are feeling and that it's kind of normal for processing
13:22 something of this magnitude.
13:23 Yeah, I think there are a lot of people who would be like, wait, you actually think about
13:27 that, about this so much.
13:29 You know, I think a lot of times people will avoid a conversation or a thought process
13:33 like this because it's a rabbit hole.
13:35 Because once you start with something this big, before you know it, you're envisioning
13:39 one of those scenes from those movies like, you know, where the world has ended and nothing
13:43 looks the same anymore.
13:45 And it's terrifying.
13:46 So I think people don't let themselves sit with those feelings for very long because
13:50 they are so uncomfortable.
13:51 I remember this patient popped into my head several years ago.
13:55 I had this girl and she had a tremendous amount of catastrophic anxiety.
14:01 And she said something about a tsunami stemming from the coast of Africa.
14:06 And I said, well, why does that worry you so much?
14:10 And she deadpan looked at me and genuinely said, because I live in New York and when
14:16 the tsunami comes up, it's going to hit New York.
14:19 And I said, how do you know about this tsunami?
14:21 Like how come I haven't heard of it?
14:22 And she said she watched a documentary that said that someday in the future, with no certain
14:29 date or timeframe, there could be a tsunami that will go up toward the Atlantic.
14:35 And she just pieced it together and thought, you know, that's how anxiety works.
14:39 I mean, there was nothing immediate or anything that she could really tangibly state.
14:46 But the brain kind of, her mind kind of ran away with it.
14:48 And the brain has a way of catastrophizing and holding on and tightening its grip on
14:53 anxiety and anxiety needs something to latch onto.
14:56 So I think climate change can feel a little bit like that young girl.
15:00 You have no idea when it's going to happen.
15:02 You don't know what it's going to look like, but it's overwhelming and it's all consuming.
15:07 And it's just going to mean complete and utter devastation.
15:10 Is there a way to move through the world in a healthy and positive way while still carrying
15:15 that stress and anxiety with you?
15:18 Because there's a situation that is happening.
15:22 You can either deny it or put it on the back burner, which a lot of people do.
15:26 That is certainly one coping mechanism.
15:27 But if you're unable to set it aside, but you still want to be able to move through
15:33 the world in a healthy, positive way and not be gripped by fear and anxiety, what are some
15:40 of the ways that you can do that?
15:42 That you can live, have those things live side by side?
15:46 Well, I mean, but we do, we do do it all the time.
15:49 You know, let's say you're on your commute to go to work and you're pondering and mulling
15:55 over an argument you had with your spouse the night before or something, a big, you
15:59 know, family crisis that's weighing on you.
16:01 And you walk in the door and your boss wants to see you.
16:04 You know what?
16:05 All those worries go out the window because in that moment you're like, oh shit, I hope
16:08 I'm not getting fired.
16:09 You know, so anxiety has a way of automatically taking a backseat and coming back to the forefront
16:15 when you give it room to grow and, and you have the time to indulge in it and foster
16:20 it and water it and, you know, give it the attention that it wants and it's looking for.
16:25 People who are prone to anxiety will always find something to be anxious about.
16:28 People who are empaths, like you said, that you and I are true empaths.
16:33 I think that this is another word that kind of like floats around.
16:36 I've known you long enough and really well enough to, to actually be able to say that,
16:40 yeah, you absolutely are an empath.
16:42 And so am I very much so.
16:44 But we also manage to function in the real world and manage all our responsibilities.
16:48 If we let ourselves drown in this anxiety, we wouldn't be able to take care of our kids,
16:53 do this podcast, pay our bills, be there for our partners.
16:57 So the only way to manage anxiety is to pay attention to other areas of your life that
17:03 need attention.
17:04 And when those things need attention, anxiety will have no where to go, but take a backseat.
17:10 If you could say, okay, well, in the big picture, I'm not going to make a huge difference by
17:14 myself, but what things are important to me, where can I make small changes?
17:18 So the ones that I mentioned, the reason I mentioned it is because everyone has something
17:22 like that.
17:23 For instance, I still use paper towels.
17:26 You know, it's a thing.
17:27 They're not the best, but I try to go for like the biodegradable ones or the ones that
17:30 are environmental friendly, because I'm not going to sit here and lie and say, I could
17:34 just throw a paper towel.
17:35 I need them.
17:36 I'm like a kid at home with two kids.
17:38 And, but you know what I do?
17:40 And this may be the immigrant in me.
17:41 If I, let's say wipe one counter down instead of just throwing it away, I'll use it to wipe,
17:46 you know, water somewhere else.
17:47 And I'll use it five different times before it finally makes it into the garbage.
17:50 So little things like that make me feel like, okay, I'm not the worst.
17:54 May not be the best, but I'm not the absolute worst.
17:58 What about when people just feel like this extreme anger and frustration, like, because
18:03 it's not enough government action.
18:06 It's not enough action from private corporations.
18:08 And obviously these are the ones who can really move the needle.
18:12 How can they channel that into something more positive and productive?
18:15 Well, I mean, I think anger is actually a great emotion.
18:18 I think it actually does get a lot of things moving.
18:20 And I felt very angry because, you know, the countries or the places on earth that are
18:24 suffering the most, especially, let's say like Pakistan, which has really bore the brunt
18:28 of climate change is responsible for less than 1% of it.
18:32 Whereas the countries that are really responsible, like us, you know, the Western world is not
18:37 really hitting the need for change.
18:40 I was watching or listening or reading about the Sharm El Sheikh conference on climate
18:45 change.
18:46 And, you know, Biden went and said a whole bunch of things about climate change, but
18:49 didn't actually propose a real solution.
18:53 Yes, we're going to, you know, to kind of move away from Trump and sort of pulling out
18:56 of the accord.
18:57 It was like, no, we're back in, but still no real movement and no real change.
19:02 And it talk about reparations.
19:03 Like, I feel like a country like Pakistan deserves aid to rebuild because they didn't
19:08 do what happened to them.
19:09 So I mean, it's happening every day.
19:11 One of the things that I came across a couple of months ago in researching for another newspaper
19:17 magazine article was the correlation between mental health, suicide, depression, and global
19:23 warming.
19:24 The areas where the temperatures are going up more rapidly every year are also reporting
19:29 higher suicide rates, higher depression, higher mental health.
19:33 Oh, wow.
19:34 There is a direct correlation that they've been able to make with climate change.
19:38 So this isn't a unifaceted kind of an issue.
19:42 This is really impacting us on multiple levels.
19:45 But the day to day is so busy.
19:47 We're just kind of going about our business.
19:48 We have to pay the bills.
19:49 I got to pick up the kids at three.
19:50 I got, you know, I have patients to see.
19:53 I got to cook a meal.
19:54 Like who has time to invest every single day into a cause unless that is what you do
20:00 for a living?
20:02 And so I think the way to move through this with your anger and frustration is to commit
20:07 to small changes.
20:09 It commit to electing people who have climate change on their agenda.
20:13 In terms of breaking out of like a paralyzed state.
20:17 And again, this I, you know, if I'm being honest, I feel like I fall into this a little
20:21 bit where it feels like small actions feel too small, big actions feel out of reach.
20:27 And it's hard to make sense of it all.
20:30 When somebody kind of reaches that paralyzed state where you just don't know how to move,
20:36 is there a way to break out of that?
20:39 I mean, it seems like the small actions is a way to break out of that a little bit like,
20:43 okay, just start with baby steps, you know, you know, but sometimes if the baby steps
20:47 seem too small, that also can kind of have this spiral effect of like, well, why does
20:52 it even matter?
20:53 What does it matter if I'm recycling or what does it matter?
20:56 It's such a drop in the bucket.
20:57 The reality is, Michelle, there is no other option, you know, and if you're the kind of
21:01 person who can break out of and you can move on, chances are that's how you feel about
21:05 other issues in your life as well, right?
21:07 As human beings, resilience is natural to us.
21:10 Being able to move, you know, pick up and move on is natural to us.
21:14 But of course, there are those of us who really struggle with doing it.
21:17 It's just the way we're wired, we're wired differently.
21:20 And if you are the kind of person who feels that stuck, chances are you're probably also
21:23 that stuck in other areas of your life.
21:26 And this is where a therapist comes into play.
21:28 This is where maybe medication comes into play, because I'm willing to bet if you have
21:31 that much anxiety about climate change, honestly, we should be anxious about climate change.
21:37 This is not a small thing.
21:38 I truly genuinely feel very strongly about it, but I don't let it consume me.
21:44 And I do make decisions that are maybe and sometimes I don't even think about them.
21:48 They may be bad for climate, I don't beat myself up, I say I'm going to do what I can,
21:52 I don't have a lot of conflicts or deep inner demons to battle with.
21:57 I just say, Okay, I still have to put food on the table, I still have to pay people,
22:02 I have to keep the lights on.
22:03 I have things that are vying for my attention right here.
22:06 I think that that stuff keeps you humbled and real and rooted in that every human being
22:13 matters on this planet, but not if you let one thing completely undo you, then you're
22:18 no good to anyone.
22:20 Right.
22:21 It seems to me in general, that in order to best take care of the planet, we really need
22:25 to take care, honestly, of ourselves and of our health and our mental health first, so
22:30 that we can be effective stewards of the planet.
22:33 Do you see a correlation there?
22:35 I mean, it's kind of the classic thing in any relationship.
22:38 It's like, take care of yourself first, and then you can take care of this planet that
22:42 we love and cherish.
22:43 Yeah.
22:44 I mean, when I was a kid, we traveled a lot.
22:45 My dad worked for the airlines.
22:47 And so, I remember you would have these flight attendants that would get up there and do
22:52 the whole thing.
22:53 And one of the lines they would always say is, "Before you help someone next to you,
22:57 make sure you put your mask on first."
22:59 And throughout life, my dad, who worked for the airlines his whole life, always used that
23:02 lingo.
23:03 He would say, "Sanam, you can't help anyone if you're not okay."
23:06 Once you start building yourself from the inside, it's almost like good things gravitate
23:10 toward you.
23:11 And it's such a simple formula, but even people like us struggle to remember that in a time
23:17 of need.
23:18 But it absolutely is true.
23:20 If you're taking, let's say, if you go to the gym, you eat well, you recycle, you keep
23:27 your house clean, you do the things that really make for a clean living, then you will automatically
23:32 make choices that are also good for the planet.
23:35 How could you treat your body like a temple, but not your home, and then outside your home,
23:40 the earth?
23:41 Yeah, the real work starts on the inside.
23:44 Our access to mental health has kind of become a luxury, sadly, because there's such a need
23:48 for it.
23:49 But I think if we can invest a little bit in that, I think the other things will follow
23:52 suit, especially because climate change is also so connected to mental health.
23:56 I agree.
23:57 It's easier said than done, always, to take care of ourselves first.
24:02 But I do think it's such an important part of the process.
24:05 So yeah, I really just want to thank you for spending some time.
24:09 No, this was great.
24:10 Thank you so much for having me and really bringing some light to not just climate change,
24:16 but also to my dear native Pakistan and the suffering of the people and the fact that
24:21 this is probably going to happen again next year.
24:24 And we all have an obligation to do this.
24:27 It's kind of like that saying, "Today is Pakistan, tomorrow it's going to be another country,
24:30 and it might be yours or where your family is."
24:33 And this is not going away.
24:35 Right.
24:36 We don't have to hit so close to home to have people wake up and realize what's going on.
24:41 I mean, this is our world.
24:42 The world is our backyard.
24:43 I mean, isn't that also what COVID showed us?
24:46 That the first time we were all impacted by the one same thing.
24:51 You know, in my lifetime, that had never happened before.
24:53 There'd be a war somewhere in the world, but we'd be safe in our homes, or there'd be famine
24:58 somewhere, we'd be safe in our homes, we had food.
25:00 For the first time, we all dealt with the same exact thing.
25:03 And that's what climate change is.
25:05 [MUSIC]
25:10 So that's the big stuff, the ways our minds can torture us or protect us.
25:15 And then there are the nuts and bolts of how to plan travel in an increasingly unpredictable
25:19 world.
25:20 That's where Paul Doucette comes in.
25:22 He's the one with the long title we mentioned at the top of the episode.
25:25 Basically, Paul specializes in assessing risk around the world.
25:29 The company he works for, International SOS, helps advise people on risk before they travel.
25:35 And it helps them deal with trouble on the ground, from medical evaluations and air ambulances
25:40 to security evacuations for outbreaks of conflict.
25:43 Given all that, it takes a lot to rattle him, and I knew he'd have some great advice.
25:47 Now, if only I could channel his calm, cool, and collected approach to travel and risk.
25:51 [MUSIC]
26:03 I'd like to welcome Paul Doucette, Regional Director of Security, Intelligence, and Assistance
26:08 for International SOS, a global health and security risk management firm.
26:13 So first off, I would love to give our listeners a sense of what it is that International SOS
26:18 does and the kind of services it can and does offer to travelers and businesses throughout
26:23 the world.
26:24 Sure.
26:25 Thanks very much for having me and happy to be discussing this with you today.
26:28 So International SOS is a global company that offers a personalized risk management service
26:34 in both medical and security spaces.
26:37 We offer security and medical intelligence analysis, advice, and assistance to clients
26:42 around the whole world.
26:44 What that really means is that people use us for information and advice before they
26:48 go traveling somewhere as part of their risk management programs, as part of their prevention
26:52 programs to make sure that they have the right security and medical information and advice
26:58 about how to manage risks in different parts of the world where they operate and travel
27:02 to.
27:03 So they use us for that.
27:04 And then if they do get into trouble despite the preventative measures and information
27:08 and advice that we provided, then we also provide assistance services, and that includes
27:12 everything from medical evacuations and air ambulances through to security evacuations
27:16 for outbreaks of conflict and the like.
27:20 And relevant to this topic today, we do an awful lot in the Americas region in particular
27:25 in terms of natural disaster response and making sure that people who are affected by
27:29 natural disasters have a means to get out of locations that are affected either before,
27:34 say a storm hits their location or in the aftermath of that, if they need support in
27:39 terms of life support where they're standing fast or to be able to leave an area where
27:43 the infrastructure has been damaged and is no longer sustainable to stay where they are.
27:47 Right.
27:48 And so it's interesting because during the pandemic, of course, we reached out a lot
27:53 to organizations like yours to discuss medical and health care services.
28:00 And you know, as the pandemic got a little more under control, and we were all able to
28:05 move throughout the world a little more safely, I think all of us started to recognize the
28:11 issue with climate change a little more.
28:14 So one thing that, you know, we think about as a travel publication is how can travelers
28:22 plan in the face of just kind of disasters occurring throughout the world, definitely
28:29 seemingly more so than they used to.
28:32 And so, you know, I just kind of want to get a sense from you about how do we plan in the
28:36 face of uncertainty without it, you know, without it feeling like, okay, now I'm getting
28:43 stressed out.
28:44 Sure.
28:45 Yeah, no fair question.
28:46 I mean, I think so.
28:50 It's kind of hard to say precisely how someone should do that without creating stress.
28:56 It depends on the person a lot, of course, and what acts as a stressor for one person
29:00 versus another person.
29:02 But of course, you know, best practice would dictate that you look at a situation and what
29:06 the risks are, have a good, clear understanding of what the risks are realistically for a
29:10 destination for the time of year, for the location that you'll be in, and so on.
29:15 Understanding what your options are for response or movement away from out of harm's way.
29:22 So we deal with, you know, risk management in some very serious ways.
29:24 And we talk a lot about natural disasters, but also a lot about, you know, outbreaks
29:28 of conflict or violent social upheaval and things like this.
29:30 So for us, I think I've become desensitized to it in a certain level, where for me, it
29:36 doesn't seem like a stressor at all.
29:37 It's just my job, and it has been for many, many years.
29:40 You are the model for being, you know, calm, cool, and collected.
29:44 Maybe so, yeah.
29:46 But as a structure, right?
29:47 So just to provide a little bit of maybe some way to think about it, like a structure of
29:52 how to think about it.
29:53 What we usually encourage is to look at two main factors.
29:56 What's the most likely scenario, and what is a realistic worst-case scenario?
30:00 Okay, so if you think of what's the most likely scenario, say it's August and you want to
30:04 go down to the Caribbean for a holiday, you know, you're going to be in hurricane season
30:09 down there.
30:10 So you plan this holiday, and you say, what's the most likely scenario is there's a 50/50
30:15 chance maybe, something like that, that a hurricane will affect my trip.
30:18 It'll either be canceled before I go, or I'll be there when the storm starts to bear down
30:22 on us, and we'll have to leave, or whatever.
30:24 The worst-case scenario is, of course, you know, direct impact from a major storm, and
30:29 that could happen.
30:30 And so if you prepare for how you would respond in a worst-case scenario, and you think about
30:35 that and put in measures in place that would allow you to address your actions and behaviors
30:41 that will help you in advance, be ready for that kind of worst case, then anything else
30:45 that might happen short of that becomes a lot easier to manage and becomes less anxiety
30:50 inducing because the most likely scenario is not the worst case.
30:53 The worst case is a low likelihood, is a low percentage that it will happen.
30:57 So I'll give you another example, a personal story.
31:00 So my organization, we plan an annual conference in August as sort of a kickoff to the new
31:04 financial year.
31:05 And one year we were in Hawaii.
31:06 Now, Hawaii doesn't get hurricanes often.
31:09 This particular year was the first year in 26 years at the time that a hurricane bore
31:14 down on the main island of Hawaii during the time we were there for the conference.
31:19 It was very unlikely.
31:20 Like if you had planned in advance, say, this would be the worst case scenario and it actually
31:24 happened, but the likelihood of it was incredibly low.
31:27 I mean, it hasn't happened in more than two decades.
31:29 And also that's a full year of every year could happen at any point during the hurricane
31:33 season.
31:34 It happened to happen that very week.
31:36 So it was well planned for in the sense that we picked a very low risk destination for
31:40 the time of year, yet we were still affected by it.
31:43 We were able to evacuate ourselves without great issue because we had all the people
31:47 there who do that for a living there with us.
31:49 So it worked out quite well.
31:50 Convenient.
31:51 It was convenient, very convenient and great training for everyone involved from another
31:56 standpoint.
31:57 But I think the important thing is understanding, you know, what resources you have, how to
32:00 access them and what really they can do, what and what part of the responsibility falls
32:05 on you.
32:06 So as an individual covered by an assistance provider, it is critical that you have your
32:11 own measures in place to stay organized, to be able to provide information that's needed
32:16 for that evacuation operation to be executed.
32:18 But we don't need to go all the way down to talking about the worst case scenario.
32:21 I do think planning for that reduces the anxiety.
32:23 So you know what you would do even in that worst case, that can make it a little bit
32:27 easier to manage because you understand what the process would be if things do go south
32:32 on you rapidly during a trip.
32:34 It reminds me kind of of something that came up a lot during the pandemic, which was this
32:41 idea of it's not going to happen to me is not a plan.
32:46 So this idea that I'm going to travel, I'm going to go abroad, and I'm not going to get
32:51 COVID or I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to have to quarantine, I'm not going
32:54 to get stuck in another country, like it's not going to happen to me, is not a good plan
33:02 to have.
33:03 And that was kind of something that we were trying to communicate to readers that, like,
33:10 do yourself a favor, and don't just assume it's not going to happen to me because the
33:17 resulting stress for when they you know, when things do go wrong, is much worse.
33:22 For sure.
33:23 And like to add on to that, I mean, I think you've touched on something really good, which
33:26 I think a lot of people just want to wing it.
33:27 I just want to sort of be out there.
33:29 I've traveled to a lot of places, I know how to deal with different things that can happen.
33:32 But it's the complacency is a killer.
33:35 And that's, you know, a lot of people have to fight that off.
33:37 And so it's important to be aware of it.
33:39 I think some interesting points to make that might also bring the point home that you're
33:42 making around, you know, you need a plan, even if you don't think you do, you do.
33:47 When it comes to climate driven, natural disasters, and the changes that they've experienced is
33:52 very clear.
33:53 I mean, we know, we all know, and probably all have personal anecdotes about how it's
33:56 affected us in some way or other, some of the professional organizations that have looked
33:59 at this and provided some some clear information about why that's so important.
34:04 One would be NOAA, which is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
34:08 So they monitor very, very closely all tropical storms in the Atlantic every, every year,
34:13 they're a United States based organization.
34:15 So they have recently raised their baseline assumptions for every year going forward based
34:20 on historical data for the number of named storms that they expect to form in the Atlantic.
34:26 And they've raised their baseline assumption for the number of named storms that will become
34:29 real hurricanes, actual hurricanes, threatening landmasses.
34:33 So that's one thing.
34:34 The other thing is wildfire risks traditionally have been a four month season.
34:39 It's now become a six to eight month season as standard.
34:43 So all of these things are expanding again on the hurricanes point.
34:46 Another interesting one is how these are taking place increasingly outside of their established
34:51 patterns, locationally and temporally.
34:54 I actually grew up on the east coast of Canada many, many years ago.
34:58 Over there, we occasionally get hurricanes coming off the Atlantic, but we got a category
35:03 two hurricane this year.
35:05 Three years ago, we had another category one or two hurricane, I forget.
35:09 And before then, it had been 17 years since the previous one.
35:12 And before that one, it had been about 25 years since we'd received one.
35:15 So small sample size, but a clear increasing trend of hurricanes maintaining their strength
35:20 going further and further north.
35:22 On the other side of it, down south, we've increasingly seen storms form further south,
35:28 sometimes skirting the north coast of Venezuela at almost reaching hurricane strength, which
35:33 is unusual.
35:34 That does not fit the pattern.
35:36 That's further south than those have traditionally formed.
35:39 There's a lot of places down in that area that are not ready for hurricanes to hit them
35:43 because it's not traditionally been in the hurricane pathways.
35:48 Places like Trinidad and Tobago, Aruba, the city of Caracas, Guyana as well is near there.
35:53 So there's lots of locations that might be seeing that.
35:55 The main point here, we should all kind of expand the parameters that we think natural
36:01 disasters can occur within.
36:03 There's a greater spectrum now that we should assume to be at risk from these kind of climate
36:08 driven disasters.
36:10 Right.
36:11 And that's interesting because I was going to ask about sort of, are there certain destinations
36:16 that we should avoid at certain times of year because we do know about certain patterns.
36:21 And it's interesting because, you know, to your point, yes, there are patterns.
36:26 And yes, of course, it's smart to understand those patterns because that is a critical
36:31 part of the risk calculus.
36:34 But the patterns are changing.
36:36 So it's interesting to think about that.
36:39 Like if you think you're going to a safe zone in this changing world, maybe that, you know,
36:45 you also should be thinking about just having some safeguards in place just in case because
36:50 their patterns are changing so drastically.
36:52 I think you're absolutely right.
36:55 It is a two pronged thing, right?
36:56 It's your own personal planning and your own personal sort of state of mind about the risk.
37:01 But yeah, what is available resource wise locally.
37:04 So the Caribbean is an easy example.
37:05 It's a lot of countries, a lot of different governments, different environments.
37:09 So Dominican Republic is one that's relatively big, relatively well resourced and gets hit
37:13 by hurricanes every single year.
37:15 So they, I mean, every hotel knows exactly what to do.
37:18 Every hotel has backup generators.
37:21 Every hotel has, you know, double glazed windows that can withstand hurricane winds.
37:25 They're built for that.
37:26 They're ready for that.
37:27 They stockpile supplies because they have to, because they're very, very accustomed
37:30 to it.
37:31 If you go to another location where that's not the case at all, further south in the
37:35 Caribbean that gets very few hurricanes and you get unlucky and receive one.
37:39 I mean, go back to my example of Hawaii.
37:41 I remember walking around seeing in Honolulu, these glass front storefronts and hotels where
37:47 the glass is right down to the ground.
37:49 They had one line of sandbags about two inches high as all they had is flood prevention measures
37:54 because they never get this kind of activity.
37:56 Who's going to invest in having those things on hand when this just never happens to them.
38:00 So they're just not ready.
38:02 And so their ability to support you, the inherent local capability to support you in those events
38:06 is far, far lower than it would be in a place that gets them more regularly.
38:09 So yeah, you're a little bit more at risk in those places that are a little bit outside
38:13 or adjacent to the established patterns.
38:16 So when these climate related disasters affect our trips, I think one thing that has always
38:23 been confusing to me, and I've been covering travel for 15 years, so I'm sure it's confusing
38:30 for the average traveler, is what are the different levels of coverage and where does
38:35 travel insurance fit in versus a company like International SOS?
38:41 What degree of help and assistance and coverage should you be, how should you think about
38:46 it?
38:47 Sure.
38:48 So think of it as a triangle.
38:49 At one point of the triangle is you, at one point of the triangle is your insurer, and
38:54 at one point of the triangle is an assistance company like International SOS.
38:58 So what we do is ensure that you get the best service for the situation that you're in.
39:04 So if you're a patient, let's say you're traveling somewhere and you have a health condition,
39:09 absent any financial considerations, we will make a recommendation that is what is just
39:14 purely what is best for the client in a completely agnostic, apolitical, neutral way without
39:21 any other consideration.
39:22 Here's what is best for the patient, given the situation, given where they are, capability
39:26 of the medical infrastructure where they are, and so on.
39:29 So with all that in mind, we then provide the service that is required to you, often
39:36 embedded with your insurance so that we ensure the coverage for what we're doing is also
39:42 provided.
39:43 And that relationship is often held between us and the insurer.
39:46 So certainly having financial coverage is critical.
39:48 And I think that's very standard globally that everyone will have financial coverage
39:52 for disasters.
39:53 But of course, if you're going to certain places, like we're talking about that are
39:56 a little bit outside established patterns, you might want to make sure that that insurance
39:59 does apply to disasters in a given location that you may be traveling to.
40:05 Where we come in is as the agnostic provider of assistance purely based on needs and requirements
40:13 to make sure that we get people the best results that we can for their health and for their
40:17 safety.
40:18 Is your service also available like in the planning process?
40:21 Because it seems like it would be really valuable to be able to sort of do a risk assessment
40:26 before going somewhere.
40:27 Yeah, absolutely.
40:28 So we've been talking about sort of the emergency side of it.
40:31 So when things go wrong side of it, that's like maybe 1% of our of our business, the
40:36 99% of our effort is on exactly what you're talking about, which is that preventative
40:40 side.
40:41 So people contact us for information and advice about where they want to go.
40:45 So we provide professional intelligence, security intelligence and medical intelligence and
40:49 advice that goes with it.
40:50 We don't do a lot in the leisure space.
40:52 So you know, where should I take my holiday isn't really what we do.
40:55 It's more, you know, what are the risks for deployment to a certain location or for business
40:59 travel to certain locations?
41:00 More typically what we do.
41:01 We do also support individuals who want to have our coverage and access to our information
41:07 and so on for their personal trips too.
41:09 So yes, we do everything from that early risk assessment with advice.
41:14 We do trigger warning systems.
41:16 So we set up documents that look at if this trigger happens, what should you do about
41:22 it?
41:23 If this other event happens, what should you do about it?
41:25 We'll do escalation planning on a larger scale.
41:27 So how to evacuate a whole organization of people.
41:29 And on a personal level, we provide training.
41:32 So we provide individualized, if you like, natural disaster specific or just other security
41:38 training, how to make sure you stay safe while you're traveling is including a high and extreme
41:41 risks locations.
41:43 We also provide network support.
41:45 So through local network of providers on the ground, this includes security companies,
41:50 transport companies, secure hotels that we've gone and assessed ourselves, medical facilities,
41:55 clinics and hospitals, dentists, psychiatrists, you name it, we do it.
41:59 So all that kind of stuff is part of the network service that we provide referrals to those.
42:03 And all of those organizations, those types of hospitals, providers that I mentioned,
42:07 are all those that we have actually gone to that location, visited and accredited in person
42:12 ourselves.
42:13 In most cases, we've used the services of those organizations and we know exactly what
42:18 that looks like.
42:19 And we've assessed it against our standards, which are very sophisticated.
42:21 I mean, a hotel security assessment, for example, is about an 11 page document that we go through
42:26 a huge checklist of things to determine whether a hotel is acceptable or not from a security
42:31 standpoint in a given location.
42:33 With all that in mind, I mean, some of the basic tips that I think might be more sort
42:37 of tangible takeaways for the listeners can be things about, you know, what decisions
42:40 do they make in general and on the topic of climate change, weather related disruptions
42:44 and so on.
42:45 Like, I think one of the biggest ones is to choose your accommodation wisely, wherever
42:49 you're going, where you stay has a huge effect on your ability to mitigate the risks that
42:54 you're facing.
42:55 You can call ahead to hotels and say, what do you have in place in terms of risk mitigation?
43:00 What do you have in place in terms of procedural response when it comes to, say, any kind of
43:05 emergency, whether it's a fire in the hotel or whether it's a hurricane hitting the island?
43:09 What do you have in terms of backup generators?
43:11 What do you have in terms of, you know, the window standards to prevent breakage in high
43:15 wind situations?
43:17 Stockpiles of essential provisions that we can take advantage of, should we need to stay
43:20 in the room for two days and not go out because the infrastructure is gone or whatever, we
43:24 have to wait a long time for a flight, for example.
43:27 So having that good capability and I think also being tied into some local networks and
43:30 knowing kind of before you go exactly who I call for what, if a worst case scenario
43:35 happens.
43:36 So what resources do you have?
43:38 How would you access those resources?
43:40 Having some backup communications is also always a good thing for the ability to contact
43:45 providers, and having flexible bookings as well, right?
43:48 So if you know you're going somewhere that is at risk of this, making sure you're not
43:52 booking tickets that you can't change without paying double or something, is always a practical
43:56 tip as well.
43:57 Right, right.
43:58 And the flexible booking is actually interesting because weather is not traditionally covered
44:04 like by the airlines.
44:05 You know, it's considered an event that is beyond their control.
44:09 So this is really important.
44:11 I think in this climate changing world, there's so many travel disruptions that can be attributed
44:17 to weather and at that point, the airlines, you know, they're out.
44:23 Weather is not something that they cover.
44:26 So that I think is just really important for travelers to keep in mind.
44:30 And I'm just curious since in dealing with the planning phase and people looking at,
44:34 and especially now with like business travel coming back and in-person meetings, do you
44:38 find climate events being a larger part of those conversations than they were in the
44:45 past?
44:46 Yes.
44:47 In short, yes.
44:48 It absolutely is.
44:49 Yeah.
44:50 I mean, yeah, we see it all the time.
44:51 We see it all the time that people are worried about natural disasters, first and foremost,
44:58 especially like say within the United States, which is if you think about it on a global
45:02 picture, the United States is actually interesting.
45:04 One of the countries most impacted by natural disasters, almost any location in the world.
45:08 I'm quite a global citizen.
45:10 I've lived in about seven different countries and traveled to more than 80.
45:13 I think of the Philippines and the United States as the two countries that are most
45:17 affected by almost every different type of natural disaster.
45:21 You have hurricane risks, you have earthquake risks on the West Coast, you have extreme
45:25 heat, you have extreme cold, you have tornadoes through the center, flooding risks in a lot
45:29 of different locations.
45:30 So there's just almost every different type of natural disaster.
45:32 There's volcanoes as well within the United States, contiguous territory.
45:35 So there's just almost every different type of natural disaster.
45:37 We have volcanoes.
45:38 You got it all.
45:39 You got it all.
45:40 Yeah.
45:41 So the Philippines as well as just right in the crosshairs every year of typhoon season
45:44 in the Pacific.
45:46 They also have flooding problems often.
45:49 They have volcanoes that are very active.
45:52 They have earthquakes on a very regular basis.
45:54 They just also have it all.
45:55 It's a little bit different, but partly because the US just covers such a large amount of
45:58 territory that it has this incredible diversity, right?
46:02 Within its very large borders.
46:03 Yeah.
46:04 Yeah.
46:05 So anyway, back to the question though, is about how it factors into planning for large
46:08 events.
46:09 I mean, we see it in our own planning and our clients talk to us about it all the time
46:12 is that it rises to prominence is probably the number one thing.
46:16 You can't do anything if a storm is going to engulf an entire city and the hotel that
46:19 you're in is in that city, it's just going to happen.
46:22 So having good response and planning around what to do in that scenario is primary.
46:27 I'm just curious if there are also destinations.
46:31 I mean, we've talked about these two destinations that are affected by a kind of large swath
46:36 of different disasters.
46:38 Are there destinations that you see that are quieter?
46:40 Absolutely.
46:41 Yeah.
46:42 So there's lots of parts of the world that are a, say outside of, of any major storm
46:47 pathways.
46:48 And that's very well mapped to me.
46:49 You can in two seconds on Google, find a map of exactly what locations are in typical tropical
46:54 storm paths.
46:55 And that may also be not in an earthquake zone.
46:58 And that may not also have necessarily extremes of either side of the climate spectrum.
47:03 So no extreme heat, no extreme cold.
47:06 There's quite a few places in the world that are like this.
47:08 I would say Argentina, maybe one.
47:09 I mean, they certainly have some earthquake risk, but not major.
47:13 And they aren't in any storm pathways or anything like that.
47:16 There's parts of the Middle East that have some extreme heat issues part of the year,
47:19 but they're quite well managed to dry heat.
47:20 And they're quite, quite able to manage it.
47:22 They don't really have anything else, sandstorms occasionally.
47:25 There's parts of Northern Europe, I would say are relatively immune to this.
47:28 There's probably parts of Africa with drought being an issue in some places, but there's
47:32 a lot of areas of the world that don't really have this consistent impact felt from different
47:38 types of climate related disasters.
47:39 And that doesn't mean to say that they won't ever.
47:41 As we talked about, these things keep evolving and keep changing as the climate changes.
47:46 I feel like that is one way that travelers for whom this does feel overwhelming, they
47:52 could speak with like an organization like yours or do their research to find places
47:57 where the likelihood isn't as high.
48:00 You know, trying to approach things maybe from a practical point of view to help ease
48:06 maybe some of the anxiety of, okay, it's not everywhere in the whole world all the time.
48:11 So it sounds like there are certain regions where the impact, at least thus far, is not
48:19 as severe as other places just due to these certain storm patterns and again, geography.
48:25 And so that's hopeful at least.
48:28 Yeah, especially if we include seasonality into that.
48:32 So there's certain parts of the world that are also far, far safer in different seasons.
48:36 I mean, Florida, for example, is one of the most consistently impacted locations in the
48:42 world by hurricanes.
48:44 But in this time of year in January, there's almost zero risk of that happening.
48:49 And in fact, it's a lovely time to visit.
48:51 And it's mostly like, even though there's established patterns and then what we're talking
48:54 about in terms of the evolution, changing patterns is really the immediate adjacencies
49:00 to the established pathways.
49:02 It's not changing so dramatically that places, you know, totally have never experienced a
49:07 hurricane in a thousand years or something going to have one.
49:09 Right.
49:10 And one thing, you know, that I also think about, I live in California.
49:13 So obviously, I think a lot about wildfires.
49:15 I live in Northern California, and it's been a challenging past decade.
49:19 But I also, what gives me some sense of hope is learnings.
49:24 You do see some efforts that are made to say, okay, we can't have another year like this.
49:30 Without a doubt.
49:31 Yeah.
49:32 Without a doubt, people are looking for ways always to respond better to these things.
49:34 It's all different manner of natural disaster risks.
49:37 Yeah.
49:38 Well, thank you so much for carving out some time to speak with us.
49:42 And I think it's some really helpful advice and information.
49:46 I always say knowledge is power.
49:48 So I really appreciate you helping to kind of weigh in and shed some light on this very
49:52 complicated topic of climate change and how it relates to travel.
49:57 So thanks again for joining us, Paul.
49:59 And I think that's it.
50:00 Thanks so much for having me.
50:02 Appreciate the conversation.
50:09 Thanks for listening, everyone.
50:10 If you want to hear more from me, you can find me unpacking daily breaking news and
50:14 travel intel stories on afar.com.
50:17 Be sure to sign up for our free newsletter to get travel news delivered straight to your
50:20 inbox at email.afar.com.
50:23 And you can follow my travel exploits with my two boisterous young travel companions
50:27 who yes, I worry about a lot on Instagram at Michelle Hall-Baron.
50:32 You can find more great advice from Sanam on topics ranging from anxiety to mental health
50:36 challenges on Instagram at Dr. Sanam Hafiz.
50:40 And International SOS has a great blog on its website, international sos.com, which
50:45 covers many helpful travel topics like how to navigate natural disasters, health risks,
50:50 and crises throughout the world.
50:54 This season, we'd also like to hear from you.
50:56 Is there a travel dilemma, topic, or trend you'd like us to unpack?
51:00 Visit afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com to share what's on your mind.
51:06 Ready for more unpacking?
51:08 Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter.
51:12 If you enjoyed today's exploration, I hope you'll come back for more great stories.
51:16 You can subscribe to Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.
51:23 And be sure to rate and review the show.
51:25 It helps other travelers find it.
51:27 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.
51:30 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Galteland.
51:34 Music composition by Chris Collin.
51:36 And remember, the world is complicated.
51:38 We're here to help you unpack it.
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