What will the Earth look like in seven years, as climate change progresses, and what we can do about it? That’s the premise of the PBS show Changing Planet, now in its second season, which is tracking six of the world’s most vulnerable ecosystems over the course of seven years.
In season one, host M. Sanjayan—CEO of Conservation International and an AFAR Travel Vanguard honoree—travels to the plains of Kenya and the rivers of California to explore the effects of climate change and meet the people fighting against them. In season two, which premiered on April 19, Sanjayan travels to Australia to meet with Aboriginal people training the government in traditional fire-burning practices. This week on Unpacked, we chat with Sanjayan about the importance of Indigenous wisdom, what each of us can do to help support the planet, and how he keeps going when despair looms.
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/lhz65dy
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
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In season one, host M. Sanjayan—CEO of Conservation International and an AFAR Travel Vanguard honoree—travels to the plains of Kenya and the rivers of California to explore the effects of climate change and meet the people fighting against them. In season two, which premiered on April 19, Sanjayan travels to Australia to meet with Aboriginal people training the government in traditional fire-burning practices. This week on Unpacked, we chat with Sanjayan about the importance of Indigenous wisdom, what each of us can do to help support the planet, and how he keeps going when despair looms.
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/lhz65dy
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
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TravelTranscript
00:00 We've all been here.
00:09 You want to take a big trip, but you're so overwhelmed with information and decisions
00:13 you don't know where to begin.
00:15 Enter the AFAR Travel Advisory Council, a group of travel experts ready to help you
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00:50 I guess if you push me, I would say I'm generally optimistic in my nature.
00:53 I generally think things will be better tomorrow than it is today.
00:56 But I don't think that's the right frame.
00:58 I think the right way to ask a question is to say, "Can you do something about it?"
01:04 That's Em Zonjin, host of the PBS show Changing Planet, which over the course of seven years
01:13 will revisit six of our planet's most vulnerable ecosystems, from Greenland's ice sheets to
01:19 the plains of Kenya.
01:21 It is impossible to watch a show, which is beautifully shot by the way, and not feel
01:26 a little more hopeful about the future of our planet and what we can all do to protect
01:31 it.
01:32 I'm Aisling Green, and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel
01:36 each week.
01:37 And this week, I'm talking with Zonjin about his work on season two of Changing Planet,
01:43 which premiered April 19th.
01:45 He was fresh off of a trip to the Maldives where he was recording for season three and
01:50 had so much to say about the importance of celebrating indigenous wisdom, the little
01:54 things each of us can do to support the planet, and how he keeps himself going when despair
02:00 looms.
02:01 The show, which highlights the people and communities that are really working to make
02:04 a difference, is an extension of Zonjin's work in this space.
02:08 For the last six years, he's been CEO of Conservation International, a non-profit that
02:14 works in the global south to secure nature for humanity.
02:18 In fact, I first actually heard about Zonjin's work at Conservation International in 2018
02:23 when we honored him as part of Avar's Travel Vanguard, which celebrates the visionaries
02:28 changing the travel industry for the better.
02:31 So come join me for what I think is a really inspiring chat, and stick around afterwards
02:36 for a new segment called "How Do You Say That?" which introduces us to travel-friendly
02:41 words and phrases from languages around the world.
02:44 This week, we'll learn how to properly greet someone in Swahili.
02:48 But first, let's hear from Zonjin.
02:54 Well thank you so much for being here today.
02:57 Welcome to Unpacked, and yeah, it's just a real delight to be speaking with you.
03:02 Great.
03:03 Same here.
03:04 Wonderful.
03:05 Well, we have a lot to discuss, but I just first wanted to say congratulations on season
03:09 two of Changing Planet.
03:11 It is such a powerful and incredible show.
03:14 Thank you.
03:15 And I just got back from actually filming a segment for season three.
03:19 Oh wow.
03:20 Where were you?
03:21 I was in the Maldives, which is a place that the show has gone to before.
03:25 We've actually got two seasons from the Maldives already, but I hadn't been there.
03:30 So I sort of caught up on the Maldives stuff.
03:33 Because I think a year from now, the focus is going to be on oceans.
03:37 And Maldives was just a, it was eye-opening.
03:41 What was your impression?
03:42 And what was eye-opening about it?
03:43 You know, one, the fragility of the entire atoll, the enormous dependence on tourism.
03:48 It's I think the second most dependent nation on tourism.
03:54 So there's a lot riding on it.
03:56 And how low-lying the atolls are.
03:59 I mean, six feet is about as high as you can get.
04:02 So you've got a very fragile ecosystem, a population that is highly dependent on the
04:08 oceans, rising sea level, coral bleaching, which is their main source of income.
04:12 It really is a spectacular place, but also a place that is in dire need of help.
04:19 And in what way do you think tourism is impacting the Maldives?
04:23 I mean, tourism itself is the lifeblood for the Maldives, right?
04:26 There obviously is some impact on the country itself.
04:29 Air travel, the infrastructure build, the build of these lodges, a large influx of people
04:34 that have to come in because most of these resorts are very high end.
04:39 But I think on the whole, it's had a relatively positive impact.
04:44 And certainly it gives the community, the government, and to some extent the tourism
04:49 industry to really step up to the challenges of climate change, as well as step up to conservation.
04:55 So the place we were staying in, which is also a kind of a hub of science research,
05:02 the Sixth Census Maldives, we were there because the atoll that they're on has been on the
05:07 front lines of some amazing, amazing cutting edge research into coral restoration.
05:12 Stuff that you can think about restoration at the scale of an atoll, as opposed to just
05:15 planting polyps, which is great, but difficult to scale.
05:20 But the way the Sixth Census, I think, is pivoting, at least in this place, towards
05:25 being both sustainable, but also being very ocean positive and reef positive, is certainly
05:31 a model that others could use as well.
05:33 That's so inspiring.
05:34 And are they connecting travelers with like, can you participate?
05:38 Yes, absolutely.
05:39 You can participate in every part of their sustainability program, from sea turtles to
05:43 reef restoration to how to grow things on the island sustainably sort of thing.
05:49 But I think their support of research on the reef is actually quite, quite good.
05:53 And there's that kind of argument to be made for, you know, people coming to these places,
05:57 understanding why they're so important, and then going back home and having that perspective,
06:02 right?
06:03 You know, we understand why we need to preserve them.
06:05 I think when travelers are in a place, they do get to see and they do get a unique chance
06:11 to understand why conservation, sustainability, climate change are important.
06:18 But I think the effect doesn't last very long.
06:21 And I think that one of the challenges we have, like, there's lots of studies that say
06:25 that if you go on a vacation, that vacation glow tends to dissipate actually pretty quickly.
06:30 And I think the same thing happens with kind of what you see and your commitment in the
06:36 moment to make a change, or to care about an issue.
06:40 I think it also dissipates really quickly.
06:42 So one thing that would be pretty incredible is if we can continue to maintain the link
06:50 back to the story of that place, and why it matters.
06:55 And I don't actually know exactly how to do this.
06:57 But if you can do that, then you can lengthen the stickiness of the experience, right?
07:02 Like, interestingly, like, you know, I came back from the Six Senses, they sent me the
07:06 survey to fill out.
07:08 And because we had a great experience, and we thought people were doing a really good
07:11 job there, I took the time to fill it out.
07:12 I don't usually take the time to fill out most of the surveys you get from airlines
07:17 and companies and everything else.
07:19 But I did.
07:21 And I pointed out the research and sustainability aspects of what they did, and kind of applauded
07:26 them for it and said, "Do more."
07:28 And I got a response back very quickly that was very personalized.
07:32 It wasn't clearly a form, not a form that someone had actually read what I said, picked
07:36 up on what I said, and kind of reflected it back to me saying, "This is why it's important
07:40 to us," and all of that.
07:41 It absolutely made an impact, because it allowed me to continue my conversation for at least
07:47 a month or two longer.
07:48 And here I am repeating it to you.
07:50 Absolutely.
07:51 Right?
07:52 And I repeated it to my wife the other day that, "Oh, they wrote back."
07:54 I think that's the kind of stickiness that if we can find a way to do it, you'll end
07:58 up with, you know, one, a better travel experience, more informed travelers.
08:02 But from a business perspective, I think you'll end up with repeat business too.
08:06 Absolutely.
08:07 That's a really good point in terms of, you know, we are obviously kind of immersed in
08:10 the travel space.
08:11 So how do you kind of preserve that conservation glow, right?
08:15 When people get back to their real lives, kind of zooming back a little bit, how would
08:20 you say that your show, Changing Planet, is an extension of the work that you do and have
08:25 been doing at Conservation International?
08:28 You know, the work at Conservation International is centered on this very simple premise, and
08:33 that is that people need nature to thrive, right?
08:37 That humans and nature are inextricably linked, and that survival of one is dependent on the
08:41 other and vice versa.
08:43 And that seems almost passé today.
08:45 Like most people get it.
08:47 Most organizations embrace it.
08:49 When we were saying it and doing it 35 years ago, it was a completely novel idea because
08:54 35 years ago, the conservation movement was solely and exclusively focused on, you know,
09:01 the wild bits of nature, right?
09:03 How do you protect nature for its own sake?
09:06 And I agree, you should protect nature for its own sake.
09:09 I think what Conservation International realized a long time ago is that in the places we work
09:13 in, which are always very difficult environments, faraway places, challenging places, we're
09:18 talking Cambodia and Suriname and Indonesia and Botswana and Brazil.
09:25 If you're trying to make things happen there, you really have to figure out what's in the
09:29 best interest of the people who live there.
09:32 And if they can see and embrace that, then it has a chance of really succeeding.
09:38 If it is me coming in from outside, you know, cajoling, telling, arguing for something to
09:44 be protected, that only lasts as long as my philanthropic dollars flow in.
09:49 It just doesn't have the stickiness.
09:50 It won't last.
09:52 So this notion that humans and nature are inextricably linked and that our survivals
09:57 are connected and that we're protecting nature for the benefit of humanity, that's a fundamental
10:02 premise of CI.
10:04 And frankly, it's a fundamental premise of this show as well.
10:08 I've done probably a dozen documentaries that I've had the opportunity to host.
10:12 This one is different.
10:13 One is it's very unusual and that has a long time series.
10:17 No one really envisions a show going on for multiple years as a way of creating a record
10:22 and the visiting of the same, of some of the same places again and again, and visiting
10:27 the communities again to see the change and see what's happening.
10:32 But also in doing that, you create an immediacy about what's happening because in every year
10:37 we can almost tailor the message to what's happened that year.
10:43 And when we talk about a changing planet, what are we talking about changing?
10:46 Who's viewing that change?
10:48 It's humans.
10:49 It's our lens that's viewing the change and it's our lens that could help solve some of
10:54 the challenges that change brings.
10:57 So funny way, the stories thus far that we've covered in Changing Planet have all been kind
11:04 of almost central stories to Conservation International.
11:07 They're not places we work in.
11:09 I think there's one or two geographies we actually work in.
11:13 They're not CI stories necessarily.
11:15 They're stories that matter to us.
11:18 There's also a very big slant towards indigenous wisdom and local wisdom and using sort of
11:24 indigenous knowledge.
11:26 Look, you know, in most places we travel to, you and I travel to around the world, people
11:31 have been living in those landscapes for thousands of years.
11:34 In Australia where we recently was for season two that is just about to air, people have
11:40 lived there for 60,000 years.
11:42 They've seen it all and their wisdom is in their cultural practices.
11:46 It's almost built in, it's baked into their DNA of how they live, how they go about their
11:51 day in their landscape.
11:54 So when you can tap into that, you're tapping into like AI times 10,000, right?
12:01 You really are.
12:02 It's like tried and true evolved collective wisdom that has now become practice.
12:09 You almost don't know how they're doing it or even why they're doing it, but you realize
12:14 that there's something extraordinary happening here.
12:16 Whereas if you think about our experience on these landscapes in Australia, you know,
12:20 the Western experience in that landscape is a couple of hundred years old.
12:24 In North America is three, 400 years old.
12:28 You know, even in places like Europe, it's a few thousand years old.
12:33 So you know, that indigenous wisdom to me is something we're absolutely missing.
12:37 If the planet is changing, wouldn't you want to talk to the people who have seen it all
12:42 and been through it all?
12:43 Like to me, they're the ones who have the answers.
12:47 And if you marry that with scientific knowledge, then you really have a solution for the future.
12:50 I love that focus on indigenous wisdom.
12:54 And I think it was in that first episode of season two, right?
12:58 We go to California where they had reintroduced the beavers and you see that one section of
13:03 land that was protected from the fires because of that reintroduction of a single species.
13:09 It was just mind blowing.
13:11 Yeah.
13:12 And the Yurok people had to fight for the ability to go back to lighting fires the way
13:17 they did, that cultural practice.
13:19 And it had all this other subtlety, like the Yurok actually see themselves as the original
13:23 restorers of planet Earth.
13:25 Like that's what they think they were put on Earth to do.
13:28 Like that's literally their sort of spiritual belief.
13:32 You know, when they light fires seasonally and traditionally, the smoke from the fires
13:36 would form a barrier to the sun that would cool the rivers that would then trigger the
13:43 salmon to start running up the rivers.
13:45 Oh wow, I didn't know that.
13:47 Like I never knew this.
13:49 I never knew that like the land management was actually tied into how they manage salmon.
13:54 Right?
13:55 It's like miraculous.
13:58 And all of that, they're trying to now revive and to be completely honest on a small scale
14:03 because the land's gone.
14:04 When you go to Australia, which is what I did last December, and you get out to the
14:10 Gibson desert, now you're talking about an area the size of Denmark with a couple of
14:15 hundred people on it and enormous, enormous landscape.
14:20 And the cultural practices there are alive and well.
14:23 These are not people who are trying to reinvent what they have lost.
14:27 They're living it and have always been living it.
14:30 And now what you're seeing is science and government coming in to say, how do we learn
14:35 from you and how do we expand what you're doing to much bigger territories as well?
14:40 So that's what you will see in this season to some extent.
14:43 You know, the scaling of these ideas by going to indigenous territories where the space
14:50 is still there.
14:51 Well, kind of going back to that, you know, original premise, how did you, so for seven
14:56 years you'll be tracking six different locations around the world.
14:59 How did you decide on those six?
15:02 I wish I could say it was really strategic, but you know, we had to deal with something
15:07 called COVID.
15:08 Aha, yes.
15:10 And that played a bigger role than it probably should have, but I think the choice was pretty
15:16 good, right?
15:17 So we wanted a mix of ecosystems where you would get a wealth of stories and not be so
15:25 tightly locked in because look, it takes 300 years for a redwood tree to grow to any sort
15:31 of size.
15:32 You're not going to see it in seven years or even 30 years, right?
15:35 So you have to be thoughtful about the stories you pick so that you can, you have the ability
15:39 to come back and actually see, you know, see some progress or see some change.
15:45 And you know, so we knew we wanted one in America.
15:48 And if you think about climate change in the United States, you're either going to focus
15:51 on sort of Florida, Louisiana coasts, or you're going to pick California.
15:57 And I think the fires and sort of the catastrophic nature of what was happening in California,
16:02 you know, California is often seen as a climate leader when it comes to emissions.
16:05 It's got, you know, fairly progressive or sort of cutting edge science that goes into
16:11 it into how they manage their lands.
16:14 You've got big national parks, you've got some wild areas, you've got more tribes in
16:18 California I think than any other state, which I didn't know.
16:22 So we thought, well, California, ground zero, talk about climate change.
16:26 So that was an easy one.
16:27 We always wanted to do Australia.
16:29 We couldn't really get into it on season one because of COVID lockdown.
16:34 I see.
16:35 But you know, if you want to know what the future holds for the rest of the planet, travel
16:40 to Australia, because it's in the Southern hemisphere, you see the impacts of climate
16:45 change a little bit faster and a little bit more severe than what we're dealing with here
16:49 in the Northern hemisphere.
16:51 It's just by virtue of its location.
16:53 So the signal is strong and bright.
16:55 And you know about the catastrophic fires in 2019, 2020 in Australia.
16:59 So that's another place we want.
17:01 You got to do the Amazon, right?
17:03 Biggest rain forest on the planet.
17:05 You know, you needed a story in Southeast Asia, the big river systems of Asia, you know,
17:11 so that meant either Indonesia or Cambodia, Vietnam.
17:14 So Cambodia got picked.
17:16 You know, we wanted something in the Arctic.
17:18 Initially it was Iceland, then we thought, move it a little bit to think more Arctic,
17:22 more holistically.
17:23 I always wanted an atoll because, you know, it's just at the very tipping point of what's
17:29 happening with climate change.
17:30 Right.
17:31 Yeah.
17:32 So we thought great Barrie Reeve, but because we can film in year one, Maldives was a great
17:37 substitution and then some story in Africa that brings the big animals, the landscapes
17:42 into view and what's going on in the Horn of Africa today is massive and challenging
17:47 with four or five years of failed rains.
17:51 These are also all places where there's some great stories to be told.
17:55 And every story we've uncovered has completely blown my mind.
18:01 Like I kid you not, like the thing I've never met, run into a series where this distillation
18:08 of the story is phenomenal.
18:12 I just wish we had more time to explore it fully.
18:15 Yeah, that comes through so powerfully.
18:17 I mean, it's just an arresting show.
18:19 I mean, the cinematography alone just pulls you in.
18:23 So will you be revisiting Australia year after year now that you're able to?
18:28 I think all these general locations we'll be going back to.
18:31 Would we go back every single year?
18:33 It's not completely clear because it also depends on how much change can we document,
18:39 right?
18:40 So you could see skipping California for a year and coming back a little bit later.
18:45 But my feeling is all these ecosystems will be revisited during the course of this filming.
18:51 But just because of logistics and budgets and all that, you may want to focus heavier
18:55 on one than the other.
18:57 But Kenya, for example, we visited three times now in a row.
19:01 Because we've been able to track that change.
19:04 We've gone to the Amazon twice now following the same story.
19:09 Australia was my first visit, but it was so fantastic that I know at least one part of
19:13 that story I'd go back to again.
19:15 I went to the center of Australia, to the Gibson Desert, and was with a tribe called
19:21 the Pintupi.
19:22 I didn't know this.
19:23 This was kind of mind boggling to me.
19:25 But the Pintupi, there are two members of the tribe that I had the chance to meet and
19:28 spend time with.
19:29 They're first contact people.
19:33 So only in 1984, 1984, like I was in high school, where they "discovered," like when
19:41 they came into contact not just with Westerners, when they come into contact with other people.
19:48 It was a lost branch of the tribe.
19:51 They're called the Pintupi Nine.
19:53 And they were never kind of brought in or assimilated or in some way contacted before.
19:59 And they've always lived out there.
20:01 So my main guide through that story is this amazing woman who, until the age of about
20:07 18 or 19, we don't know exactly how old she was.
20:10 She doesn't know.
20:12 Lived with essentially no clothing, certainly no Western clothing, no metal, no metal tool
20:18 or object or weapon, no wheel, like the technology of a wheel wasn't there, no real agriculture
20:27 of any sort, no domestic animal except a dingo.
20:32 She slept on the ground in the dirt.
20:34 She was a complete hunter-gatherer, nomadic, aboriginal woman living in an incredibly difficult
20:43 environment.
20:44 I mean, listening to her and hearing from her was just one of the most amazing things
20:50 in my entire life.
20:52 Was she the woman who was describing that first moment in a car thinking that the land
20:57 was moving away?
20:59 That was just...
21:00 Yeah, I mean, exactly.
21:01 She's like in the car, and she's like, "Why are the trees and the hills and the rocks
21:05 leaving me?"
21:07 And I'm like, "My God, you know, it's exactly what Einstein said.
21:10 I mean, it's relativity."
21:11 It's all relative.
21:12 And what a great metaphor for just kind of climate change in general.
21:17 Yes.
21:18 Yes.
21:19 Yes.
21:20 I mean, I'm like, "Wow, great link.
21:21 I didn't even think of that.
21:22 You're so right."
21:23 And the thing that was so cool about it, so she can speak English, but she doesn't read
21:29 and write.
21:30 And every time she would tell me a story, she would immediately start drawing patterns
21:34 in the sand.
21:35 Wow.
21:36 Every time, every time.
21:38 It was easier for her to communicate with me or with anyone as she's speaking to also
21:44 then draw.
21:46 All that art, all that stuff that we see in museums or on rock paintings, she was just
21:51 making that in real time.
21:53 You know, that kind of begs the question.
21:55 I was curious, like, how did you develop the relationships that allowed you some of this
22:00 access?
22:01 I think the team at BBC and at PBS, BBC just produced this, and the crew was from the BBC,
22:10 were really good researchers.
22:11 And they have enormous knowledge of being able to ferret out great stories.
22:16 They then discuss a range of things with me.
22:19 And I obviously have some agency into saying, "This sounds pretty incredible."
22:23 But they do so much of the legwork for me.
22:27 Now once I'm in place, I think that's up to me as an interviewer, as a host.
22:32 For me, there's really just like literally two tricks that I have.
22:36 One is I'm genuinely curious about people and about what they have to tell me.
22:42 Like I never learned anything while I was speaking.
22:44 So I have no problem, I'm pretty vocal right now, I have no problem shutting up and letting
22:51 them tell me the story.
22:53 And I have a nose for the story.
22:55 I think also just the fact that, you know, I'm a little bit different, but not totally
23:01 different.
23:02 I think the color of my skin, my background, I grew up born in Sri Lanka, but grew up in
23:07 West Africa, got most of my higher education in the West.
23:11 There is a bit of global citizenship around me, which allows me to get into some of these
23:17 places and have these conversations on somewhat of a level ground.
23:21 You're also entering the dynamic with such respect, you know, for kind of the wisdom.
23:26 And I feel like that always comes through.
23:28 And that's been really incredible to watch.
23:32 And I think the other thing that spoke to me throughout the show is just your honesty.
23:36 So you speak in season one about this sense of impending doom that you feel as you move
23:40 around the world.
23:41 And yet the show is in so many ways about optimism and your struggle to maintain it.
23:48 How do you navigate those two kind of opposite feelings?
23:55 So I'd say a couple of things.
23:56 I mean, I absolutely get depressed, like many of us in the space.
24:00 There are weeks or days where it just does feel like an uphill battle.
24:05 You know, people ask this question all the time, are you an optimist or pessimist?
24:07 I think it's almost the wrong way to see yourself.
24:12 I guess if you push me, I'll say I'm generally optimistic by nature.
24:15 I generally think things will be better tomorrow than it is today.
24:19 But I don't think that's the right frame.
24:21 I think the right way to ask this question is to say, can you do something about it?
24:27 So what I would say is I'm determined.
24:30 I feel like I have purpose.
24:31 I have agency.
24:33 You know, there are a lot of things happening in the planet right now that you and I have
24:38 absolutely no control over or so minimal it's hard to even imagine, right?
24:43 You know, the war in Ukraine, the crisis, you know, the US-China relationship, the next
24:49 pandemic, you know, I mean, these are the things that just swamp us.
24:54 Of course we can make some change.
24:55 We can vote.
24:56 We can support groups and we should.
25:00 But it's really important to understand what are the things that you can have a big impact
25:04 on, real agency over.
25:06 And when it comes to conservation climate, I actually can.
25:10 And so I don't ever wake up in the morning not knowing what to do.
25:15 And because I have something to do, like really purpose to do like you do, it gives you agency.
25:21 And that agency is I think what lifts you out of depression.
25:25 The minute you are like, I don't know what to do.
25:28 It's so easy then to sink back into the bed of despair.
25:31 Yeah.
25:32 Apathy is such a killer in that way.
25:35 Exactly.
25:36 I once caught a salmon on the very border of Montana and Idaho.
25:42 I wasn't targeting it.
25:43 I didn't realize that you would get up that far.
25:45 That salmon had come 400 miles from the Pacific ocean.
25:49 Amazing.
25:50 Now if that fish knew all the shit they had to go through, like the challenges ahead,
25:55 like four dams, then dealing with seal and sea lions, then killer whales in the ocean,
26:02 then living out there for like three, four years, not getting caught by a trawler, then
26:06 doing the whole thing up again, only to die at the end.
26:11 It would have never left the hatchery.
26:13 No, it would not.
26:14 Right.
26:15 And yet when it hits that river mouth, it has a purpose.
26:19 It has an absolute purpose.
26:20 Every bone in its body, every fiber, every cell is saying, "Go up river, find a place
26:28 that's cool and shady with pebbles on the bottom and fast flowing streams and spawn."
26:34 That's what keeps it going.
26:36 So be a salmon.
26:37 Be a salmon.
26:38 I mean, have purpose in life, you know?
26:40 That's the best cure for being off, being depressed.
26:43 It was so, so crazy to remember even.
26:58 [Music]
27:05 [Music]
27:12 [Music]
27:19 [Music]
27:25 [Music]
27:41 [Music]
27:49 [Music]
27:59 What would you say your hope is for viewers in terms of action and agency?
28:11 What would you hope that they can kind of take away from the show?
28:15 I think this season, in some ways, is different from season one.
28:19 I think season one, we were getting our feet wet.
28:20 And if you like the stories in season one, season two will blow you away.
28:24 It really does.
28:26 And we end up crafting a thesis, right?
28:29 And the thesis is this.
28:31 So even if miraculously right now, all of our energy use, everything like the electricity,
28:36 the food, the transportation, all of this, miraculously switches to green overnight,
28:42 which is happening, by the way.
28:43 I mean, we are heading in that direction.
28:45 It's not going to be overnight, but we're heading that way.
28:47 But imagine it all happens overnight.
28:50 We will still miss the targets that we need to hit in order to have a livable planet.
28:56 Like the Paris climate goal will still be missed.
28:59 And that is because of our destruction of nature.
29:03 So our war on nature is basically putting out 12 and a half gigatons of carbon dioxide
29:08 into the atmosphere.
29:10 That's deforestation, bad agricultural practices, livestock.
29:13 I mean, it's a whole suite of things.
29:18 And what we do is we basically tell the audience, the best thing we can do, the best ROI, return
29:23 on investment, if you will, is bringing that 12.5 gigatons to zero and then into negative
29:28 territory.
29:29 So how do you make nature our friend in the fight against climate rather than right now,
29:35 essentially our foe because of what we've done to it?
29:37 And that gives you almost a structure of getting engaged.
29:41 So I think season two becomes much more prescriptive in the stories, right?
29:47 You can actually see that link, how healing the land actually connects to climate change
29:51 and where the gaps are.
29:53 Now for a general person who's out there listening to this, who cares, but is paralyzed
29:59 in doing something, I'd say first, don't be paralyzed.
30:02 Everything you do does matter and make it count.
30:05 So I'll give you three things that they can do, right?
30:07 So one is be thoughtful, really thoughtful about how much you waste.
30:11 And I particularly talk about food waste.
30:13 It sneaks up on you.
30:14 You know, even for me, the amount of water I boil for my coffee in the morning is probably
30:20 not great.
30:21 I could boil less.
30:23 The biggest drinker of coffee in your household is not you, it's your sink.
30:27 So think about all the energy that goes to make coffee, transport it there.
30:31 Then all the energy that goes to take water and transport it there.
30:34 Then think about all the energy it takes to boil that water, right?
30:38 And then you make that much and you're drinking that much.
30:41 It's an enormous loss of energy.
30:44 And this happens all the time in your refrigerator, in how you cook, in what you buy, where you
30:49 buy it from.
30:50 So changing your eating habits and your cooking habits and your waste habits is going to be
30:54 good for your wallet.
30:55 It's very likely going to be more healthy for you.
30:58 And it's going to make a big impact on your planet.
31:00 It's pretty easy to do.
31:01 And there's really no reason not to do it.
31:03 So that's number one.
31:05 Number two, I'd say, you know, in your home, there are some amazing tools right now, like
31:10 FinTech applications.
31:12 We can change a whole suite of things in your home, from your windows to your solar panels,
31:17 to how you water your lawn or your garden.
31:19 Yeah.
31:20 And compress that all into your home mortgage, right?
31:22 So it makes it easier for you.
31:25 And then the third thing is when it comes to nature, you know, become nature positive.
31:29 So support conservation locally, regionally, globally, it doesn't really matter.
31:35 Just do that.
31:36 Help out the local organizations, help out the global organizations, donate, become a
31:40 member of it.
31:41 It's a big part of tipping the climate equation.
31:44 For travel, be very thoughtful about where you stay and be mindful about how you get
31:49 there.
31:50 And I still think there's a room for offsetting that.
31:53 It's not perfect, but you probably should stretch to offset or in some way, contribute
32:00 on a positive end to deal with the fact that travel does cost.
32:04 We've talked a lot about that.
32:06 And that was actually one of the things that jumped out at me.
32:09 And I think it was season one was seeing the impact of the carbon credit program in Kenya
32:15 firsthand was quite inspiring.
32:17 So I was curious because I know that offsets can be viewed as problematic.
32:21 So did some of your work change your perspective on carbon credit programs or carbon offsets?
32:27 I don't think my work changed my perspective.
32:29 I think it reinforced my perspective.
32:32 So look, if there's a miraculous way of coming up with all this money to protect and restore
32:36 forests, I'm all for it.
32:38 But I've been in the conservation business my whole life, raising philanthropic dollars.
32:42 And I'm telling you, you know, it's really hard to do.
32:47 Yeah.
32:48 So we need a much more wholesale mechanism for funding the protection and restoration
32:53 of high carbon areas.
32:54 You know, these, these, these forests that are essentially irrecoverable from a carbon
32:59 perspective, if lost, they create rural jobs, which are really hard to get.
33:04 They have so many other benefits from honey to pollination, to water, to, to fodder, to
33:12 medicinal plants, to ecotourism.
33:16 And they are enormous carbon sinks, right?
33:19 So if we lose some of these things, it's game over for the rest of the argument.
33:23 So you clearly need a mechanism.
33:25 Carbon credits are one such mechanism, but they have to be done right.
33:30 So it cannot be a pass for polluters to continue to pollute.
33:33 It can only be used, in my view, when you are actually making progress towards your
33:38 goal and just using this to accelerate the progress.
33:43 And how that actually materialized on the ground in Kenya, in the Chulu Hills, you know,
33:47 I'm actually going back there on a private trip next month.
33:51 And you know, I can tell you that that project has continued to grow.
33:55 It's spinning off something like $10 million now to the community and to the government
33:59 for conservation without external inputs.
34:02 So think about this.
34:03 It originally started as a conservation philanthropic project.
34:06 Now it's self generating, it's self perpetuating.
34:11 And yes, there are some challenges with it.
34:13 It's absolutely not perfect.
34:14 But talk about 140,000 community members are benefiting from that project.
34:19 In one of the worst droughts, it's one of the few sources of water.
34:22 The forest is there, the wildlife are there.
34:25 So I think you've done well with equitable sharing of revenue with communities that are
34:29 on the front line of conservation, with good monitoring.
34:32 They do work.
34:34 And like any new field, there's plenty of bad actors out there, but they're also really
34:37 good ones too.
34:38 And then there's direct carbon capture where people try to suck carbon out of the air and
34:43 put them into the ground.
34:44 That too is a new technology.
34:46 It's expanding.
34:47 But right now it's a tiny part of the marketplace and the cost of it is still quite high.
34:53 So I still think that nature based solutions, protecting and restoring forests, and particularly
34:59 all mangroves, in order to get a carbon return, it's actually a win, win, win, if done right.
35:05 - You know, that kind of ties into this theme of resiliency that you've woven throughout
35:09 the series.
35:10 And one of the episodes that I remember was somebody who was working with coral to make
35:16 it more resilient to warmer temperatures.
35:19 And so I love that idea that there's not just that restoration work happening, but there's
35:23 people who are trying to help nature adapt and humans adapt.
35:27 - Yeah, so coral reefs, there are lots of experiments that nature itself is undertaking
35:32 right now in the real world.
35:34 - Yeah, yeah.
35:35 - And it's called evolution.
35:37 And if we are clever enough to pick up on those signals and pick up on those bright
35:41 spots and figure out how to replicate them at scale, then we let nature do the bulk of
35:47 the work and we're just sort of piggybacking on it.
35:49 And that's sort of the idea with coral restoration.
35:52 So there's a couple of ways that people are thinking about it.
35:54 One is there are some oceans or places on the ocean which are naturally warm.
35:59 The Red Sea is a good example.
36:01 And there are coral that seem to be resistant to temperature change.
36:07 So we could find out why we can propagate those sorts of corals, potentially artificially
36:12 in labs, and then you can plant them out there in the real world and restore reefs.
36:18 Now right now that can only be done at relatively small scales, a few hectares.
36:22 So if it's a reef right in front of a lodge, you can have an impact on it.
36:27 There are other ways of trying to do this too, which is much more interesting to me
36:31 because you can scale it.
36:33 And that's what you see in the show.
36:34 And you'll continue to see in the show as this show progresses in this season and the
36:39 next season.
36:40 I know that we're looking at how scientists are being able to collect coral spawn at large,
36:46 large volumes.
36:47 So 200 million coral spawns at one time and then scattering them on a reef or using bioacoustics,
36:54 using signals from the reef to encourage the spawning of coral.
37:00 So how do you enhance signals from nature, if you will, to change the ratio of successful
37:09 reef building coral?
37:11 And that to me, I don't want to give away the spoiler on some of the show, but honestly,
37:16 it was jaw dropping.
37:19 Some of the science discoveries that were happening, what I just saw, which actually
37:23 will be in season three, but they were so jaw dropping because it was real world science
37:27 happening in real time.
37:29 We were there to film it and I just could not believe what they were finding.
37:35 That's incredible.
37:36 What will be taking you to Kenya?
37:38 It's a trip through Conservation International.
37:40 So I'm actually going there to see some of the carbon work and then sort of expansion
37:44 of the carbon work, potentially the Maasai Mara, because, you know, here you have a big
37:47 grassland ecosystem with quite literally a million plus tourists visiting.
37:53 And most of the revenue for the Mara comes from tourism.
37:55 And if we can lay a carbon underneath it, then you can help with conservation and decouple
38:02 it a little bit to the ups and downs of tourism.
38:05 Because what we found is when COVID came in, the tourism in the Maasai Mara, like many
38:11 parts of African conservation, just went to zero.
38:14 I mean, quite literally went to zero.
38:15 And all of a sudden it was like the tap turning off instantly.
38:18 It was really hard for communities.
38:20 There's enormous pressure on those communities.
38:23 And so we stepped in with loans basically to the communities to see them through that
38:28 hard time.
38:29 And it turned out to work really beautifully because the loans that we gave are now being
38:33 repaid because to be honest, the recovery happened quicker than we even expected, right?
38:38 In terms of tourism booming again, as you know, every plane is full and every lodge
38:42 is full, which is a good thing.
38:45 But now looking into the future, we're asking, you know, the Maasai Mara and the Serengeti,
38:48 I mean, these are iconic places on the planet.
38:50 They cannot just be dependent on tourism.
38:53 It's just too fragile for long-term planning.
38:57 And so one of the things we're thinking about is, is there a way to finance the basic conservation
39:04 work that needs to happen year in, year out and the communities that are supported by
39:08 it through something like carbon so that the tourism up and down, the stochasticity of
39:14 tourism, right?
39:15 The seasonality of the tourism is buffered by the constant sort of underlying funding
39:22 that allow you to just plan better.
39:24 Yeah.
39:25 And does that also help discourage poaching?
39:27 Because that's one of the things that you've explored that tension between, you know, do
39:31 we protect the animal?
39:33 Do we protect humans who just need to eat or, you know, make a living?
39:36 Yeah.
39:37 I mean, most of the poaching that we tend to deal with in these very sort of iconic
39:42 landscapes, most of it is now human wildlife conflict.
39:46 So there's conflict around water, there's conflict around grazing, and that's real.
39:51 And then there's poaching for trophies like ivory and rhino horn.
39:56 By a long shot, that has declined.
39:59 So the good news in Kenya and certainly in East Africa, but in most of Africa is the
40:04 fact that there's not much of a market for ivory anymore.
40:08 China closes markets down, US, UK, others, really means the price of ivory is pretty
40:12 low relatively speaking.
40:15 So the elephants that are being killed today really are killed because of conflict.
40:20 As water and drought gets worse, everyone's scrambling for the little remaining forage.
40:27 Yeah, like the community that I think that we saw, they had set up the bee, the fake
40:32 bee.
40:33 Yes.
40:34 Right.
40:35 So using bees, using chili peppers, you know, and other ways to keep elephants out.
40:39 And that certainly works to an extent.
40:42 But if animals are desperate enough, you know, it's not a perfect solution.
40:46 It's a clever solution, but not perfect.
40:48 That kind of leads into a rather large question, which is what do you hope to see five years
40:55 from now as you're wrapping the show?
40:57 You know, I think there are two things I'd love to see.
41:00 I'd love to see or not, I shouldn't say I'd love to see, I'm expecting to see.
41:06 One is I'm expecting to see some of these ideas, like the coral restoration I'm just
41:12 looking at in the Maldives, or the using a fire for managing land in Europe, country
41:16 in California or in Australia with the Pintu bee.
41:20 I'm expecting to see those things scale.
41:22 Or the carbon projects, I'm seeing more of those things to expand and succeed.
41:27 And I think we'll be able to come back and really show how some of these things that
41:30 in its infancy really flourish and blossom.
41:34 I'm expecting to uncover a lot more ideas and energy and people who are doing amazing
41:39 things just like this.
41:41 So right now, our roster of stories is pretty small.
41:44 I think in five years, we'll have a whole encyclopedia of just amazing people who blow
41:48 your mind and give real, real courage to others to say there is a way there is agency, you
41:55 can do it as well.
41:56 And we all need to be in this together.
41:58 I'm hoping that I will also see a better integration of indigenous wisdom and Western science.
42:05 And I think because that intersection really holds a lot of promise.
42:09 And right now, indigenous voices are certainly marginalized in most conservation conversations.
42:16 So I would love to see that integrated.
42:18 And for those two to be allies in the same pursuit of a planet we can all live in.
42:26 Unfortunately, I'm also fully expecting to see catastrophe in some of these environments,
42:32 because I don't think the climate change problem is getting any better.
42:37 I think it's if anything, it's ratcheting up.
42:41 And I have no doubt that we will be filming some places that we cannot return to simply
42:47 because of what's happened to the landscape or the place.
42:50 I don't I think some of the places won't be there.
42:53 Wow, that's a hard one.
42:55 Do you hope that the show will kind of help you know, there's this idea of the larger
42:59 powers and forces at work that are causing the problems?
43:04 Do you hope that the show can help that shift in some way?
43:08 Yeah, I for sure it will.
43:11 But part of that is going to be through the unlocking of these new ideas.
43:15 Yeah.
43:16 Carbon, you know, offsets or carbon credits that are nature based is still a relatively
43:22 new thing.
43:23 They've really only been around for five, six years.
43:25 So you know, the ability for that to scale and become a much more common and better,
43:30 frankly, regulated, better, more effective tool in our fight against climate change and
43:37 to help biodiversity.
43:39 I see that getting better.
43:40 And I see they're getting a lot more air.
43:42 Blue carbon, which you spent a lot of time in Episode Two explaining and talking about
43:46 has enormous potential.
43:48 You know, the indigenous voices being given a real stage.
43:51 I see that has enormous potential.
43:53 So yes, this probably will have a role in shaping policymakers, businesses and others.
44:01 But I think above all, what I really want to be able to do is inspire audiences to think
44:05 that change can come in many different forms from many different places and that they too
44:10 have agency to create that change where they live.
44:14 These are very ordinary people.
44:16 They're not, you know, we want to call the people we meet extraordinary, but they really
44:20 aren't.
44:21 They're ordinary people facing a really difficult problem that never seen before in some ways
44:26 and relying on either new technology, collaboration, innovation or indigenous wisdom in order to
44:33 solve it.
44:34 Yeah.
44:35 And that's the kind of extraordinary part, right?
44:37 Exactly.
44:38 Is like stepping up, is taking that action.
44:40 That's exactly right.
44:41 Yeah.
44:42 So I think that's what, you know, we'll see.
44:44 Look, I think there's one other thing that's a bit of a subtle message here.
44:48 You know, this is really kind of a unique show in that the presenter and the host, which
44:53 is me and then the other presenters now in season two, I'm joined by two other presenters,
45:00 this amazing Paralympian by the name of Ade, who's British.
45:04 He's joining me on the trip to Kenya.
45:06 And then this really phenomenal woman Ella, I think she's from the Horn of Africa, I think,
45:13 or the Middle East.
45:14 But you know, they're really different presenters from what you typically see in sort of the
45:19 environmental space.
45:22 And I certainly haven't worked with such a diverse group of presenters before.
45:26 And every story we're telling is from the perspective of the local communities.
45:29 And they're very much front and center of telling that story.
45:32 I don't spend a lot of time interpreting their story for them.
45:35 They tell it themselves.
45:37 So I think this really does.
45:38 I think the thing I love about the show is that it's got a lot of diversity because these,
45:45 you know, the impact of climate change, biodiversity loss and nature loss is mostly felt in the
45:49 global South.
45:51 And I think the solutions are also going to come from the global South.
45:54 And I think I'm a bit tired of the preaching from the West and the solutions must come
45:59 from the West.
46:00 And I love the fact that we don't follow that model here.
46:04 I do too.
46:05 That's yes, absolutely.
46:06 Congratulations.
46:07 It's completely different in that way.
46:09 Just when you watch season two, like, just keep that in mind and you'll see what I mean.
46:14 Like there's nothing like it right now, or ever really, in sort of the environmental
46:21 nature programming.
46:23 Nothing.
46:24 If you just look at the voices and faces who tell the story of the planet and what we do
46:29 about it.
46:30 Not even close.
46:31 Amazing.
46:32 I can't wait.
46:33 I've only seen the first episode and I'm itching for the rest.
46:37 Is there anything else you'd like to add about either the show or your work or just life
46:42 in general?
46:43 No, you know, I think the only thing I would say is, you know, we, you know, this last
46:48 year, the last 12 months have been kind of remarkable.
46:53 It's almost as if politicians and businesses have called our bluff.
46:57 So we have a global agreement on climate change.
46:59 We have now a global agreement on high seas, the high seas treaty.
47:03 And we have a global agreement on protecting and restoring 30% of the land and waters of
47:08 the planet for biodiversity.
47:10 That was COP 15 in Montreal that happened in December.
47:14 You know how amazing that is?
47:15 That is getting countries that don't even have like diplomatic relations with each other
47:19 to agree.
47:20 We had something like 194 countries or something like that.
47:24 Virtually every country on the planet signed onto it.
47:27 That is amazing.
47:29 What it tells me is that in this time of unbelievable fractioning and political rivalry, the one
47:35 thing that still kind of unites people is the notion that nature is important to us
47:42 and must be protected.
47:44 Now people might argue about how, but the fact that we've, we're sort of beyond that
47:49 and we now agree that needs to be, is kind of an amazing thing.
47:53 The challenge now for us in the conservation space and the filmmaking space and your space
47:58 is now to create solutions that can step up to the challenge.
48:01 So the world leaders have said, yep, you're right.
48:04 We need to protect 30% of the country.
48:06 Like they've said, they're like now, so tell us how, like what's the option?
48:12 And that's the challenge.
48:13 That's the rub.
48:14 So the ability for us to take great ideas from everywhere and then scale it is going
48:19 to be the name of the game.
48:20 Well, I look forward to seeing how it plays out on Changing Planet.
48:24 Sanjan, thank you so much for being here and talking today.
48:27 Of course, my pleasure.
48:33 And that was M. Sanjan.
48:35 How can you not listen to that guy and leave inspired to change the world or at least a
48:40 binge show?
48:41 We'll link to season one and season two of Changing Planet in the show notes, as well
48:45 as the Conservation International's website.
48:49 Before we wrap up, though, I'd like to introduce our new segment, How Do You Say That?, where
48:54 we share words and phrases that travelers might use on the road.
48:58 Today we're going to be learning a few Swahili phrases from AFAR's editorial director, Sarika
49:02 Bunsel.
49:03 Hi, Sarika.
49:04 Welcome back to Unpacked.
49:07 Mambo Aislinn, habariyako.
49:10 Hey, a little taste of what I think we're going to be learning today.
49:15 Before we get into what I think are going to be words of greeting, I was just curious
49:20 to know where you're at in terms of your Swahili fluency, because you've been living in Nairobi
49:24 for a while now, right?
49:26 Yeah, so I'll say, "Naongayas ki Swahili kidogo," which in other words means that I speak a
49:32 little bit of Swahili.
49:33 I'm taking lessons right now.
49:35 Amazing.
49:36 All right, well, what do you have for us today?
49:38 What are we going to be learning?
49:40 So I thought we could just start with greetings.
49:42 So officially to greet someone, you would say, "Jambo," which means, "Hello."
49:46 However in Nairobi, where I live, the joke is that that's kind of what foreigners say.
49:51 It sounds a little bit old-fashioned to Kenyans, almost like someone saying, "Howdy," or "How
49:57 do you do, mister?"
49:58 Kind of like that vibe.
49:59 So a better greeting I've learned over time is, "Mambo," which is just a more casual way
50:05 to say, "Hello," and "Mambo habariyako."
50:08 Habariyako is like, "How are you?"
50:09 And you can respond with, "Nzuri sana," which means, "Very good."
50:14 And if you want to go even more informal, you could say, "Sasa," and you could just
50:18 respond, "Poa," which just means, "Cool."
50:21 So when would you use "Mambo" versus "Sasa"?
50:24 Is "Sasa" for friends or...?
50:26 Yeah, you wouldn't...
50:28 If you're in a more formal setting, like if you're at work or with people who are older
50:34 than you, you probably wouldn't use "Sasa."
50:36 Then you would use "Mambo."
50:37 But yeah, "Sasa" is definitely just like something that you would say among friends.
50:41 Amazing.
50:42 What kind of pronunciation tips do you have?
50:44 And would you mind walking me through how to pronounce each of these?
50:48 So Swahili is actually quite easy to learn.
50:51 It's completely phonetic, unlike English.
50:53 So how you see a word is essentially how you say it.
50:58 So yeah, we can practice if you'd like.
51:00 Okay, yeah, I would love to.
51:01 And I'll just say for listeners that we'll actually write out these words in the episode
51:05 description.
51:06 So you can go test it out yourself.
51:07 But okay, the first one, "Mambo habariaco."
51:12 That's great.
51:13 That's really great.
51:14 And then you would respond to that by saying "Nzuri," which is a little bit of like a nasal
51:18 N sound and then "Nzuri."
51:20 So "Nzuri."
51:21 "Nzuri."
51:22 Yeah, perfect.
51:23 "Nzuri."
51:24 And is it kind of like a rolled R in terms of...?
51:28 It's not like the Spanish double R, but it's not as much as like the American "ruh."
51:35 You know, it's a little bit, a little harder than that.
51:37 Okay.
51:38 "Nzuri sana."
51:39 Perfect.
51:40 It means very good.
51:41 And then, great.
51:43 And then "sasa."
51:44 "Sasa."
51:45 Yeah, that's it.
51:46 That one's a little easier.
51:47 A little easier.
51:48 Okay.
51:49 Amazing.
51:50 And I would respond "pua."
51:52 Would you use these greetings in other African countries where Swahili is spoken or is it
51:57 specific to Kenya?
51:58 Yeah, so Swahili is a really interesting case of a language.
52:02 It originated as a traders' language.
52:04 So it's spoken today in like many countries across East Africa and beyond.
52:09 So the root of the language is Bantu, which is the root of many languages in Eastern and
52:14 Southern Africa.
52:15 And Swahili also has bits of Arabic, Persian, Portuguese, and Hindi in it.
52:20 So it's estimated that 200 million people today speak it, either as their mother tongue
52:24 or like a lingua franca.
52:27 So in response to your question about the greetings, so if you want to learn like the
52:30 purest form of Swahili, I've been told that the best place to go is Tanzania.
52:34 So there you could hear more commonly "jambo" as a greeting.
52:38 And then there's even more formal ways of greeting people, like if you're with an elder
52:42 person.
52:43 That's so cool.
52:45 Or I should say, so "pua."
52:49 Yeah.
52:50 How often do you use, like how often are you speaking Swahili every day?
52:54 So in Nairobi, it's really, in Kenya, the two official languages are Swahili and English.
53:01 The British did colonize the country.
53:04 And truly, like most people that I interact with, do speak some English.
53:08 So it makes it, that's the reason why I'm actually not so fluent yet, because it's just
53:13 so easy to use English in your daily life.
53:15 But it's, you know, once you even learn a little bit of the language, I feel like I
53:19 have a bit of a superpower when I'm talking to people.
53:22 And you know, it's also nice to be able to talk to people in their mother tongue, as
53:27 opposed to the language that they may have learned in school.
53:30 I think it's just a nice form of respect.
53:32 Yeah, I love that.
53:34 Well, we'll have to have you come back and teach us some more as your language skills
53:38 progress.
53:39 I would love to.
53:40 Okay.
53:41 Well, thank you so much for being here today.
53:43 We look forward to the next one.
53:45 Thank you.
53:46 Or I should say, "Ozantizana."
53:47 Bye.
53:48 Bye.
53:49 Okay, well, I hope you're now ready for your next visit to Kenya.
53:55 We'll share the words and their spelling in the show notes.
53:58 Is there a language or phrase you'd like us to unpack?
54:00 Email us at unpacked@afar.com or share your thoughts at afar.com/feedback.
54:07 Ready for more unpacking?
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54:41 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.
54:44 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Galteland.
54:47 Music composition by Chris Gollin.