Passkeys might really kill passwords | The Vergecast - video Dailymotion

The Verge

Today on the flagship podcast of video podcasts: The Verge's David Pierce chats with 1Password's Anna Pobletts about good password hygiene, passkeys, and the upsides of a third-party password manager. Victoria Song joins the show to discuss the state of wearables and why this may be the year for the smart ring. Later, David answers a question from The Vergecast Hotline.

Transcript

00:00:00 Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of video podcasts.

00:00:03 I'm your friend David Pierce, and if you're watching this on YouTube, there's a decent

00:00:07 chance you're noticing something slightly different for one of our Tuesday episodes,

00:00:10 which is my face.

00:00:12 So we just finished moving the show from the Vergecast channel to the Verges channel.

00:00:16 And you should stay subscribed on the Vergecast channel, by the way.

00:00:19 We're going to do clips there and some extras and maybe even some live stuff over time.

00:00:23 We have big plans for that channel.

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00:00:29 You can subscribe to the channel.

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00:00:34 Specifically, the world is your oyster.

00:00:36 It should be very easy.

00:00:37 I know we had some migration issues the last few days, but I think those are solved now.

00:00:40 And if they're not, send us an email.

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00:00:44 Oh, and by the way, if you're like, "What are you talking about?"

00:00:46 I listen to podcasts because people listen to podcasts.

00:00:49 And I have a podcast app, and I've never seen David's face, and I don't ever want to see

00:00:53 David's face.

00:00:54 Totally fine.

00:00:54 I get that all the time.

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00:00:59 All right.

00:01:00 That's enough housekeeping for now.

00:01:01 Let's just get into the show.

00:01:02 We're going to do two things on today's episode.

00:01:04 First, we're going to talk about passkeys, which are this supposedly revolutionary technology

00:01:09 that is going to make being online easier and simpler and more secure all at the same

00:01:13 time.

00:01:14 It's very cool.

00:01:14 It's growing really fast.

00:01:16 And I have realized I don't understand passkeys, like, at all.

00:01:19 So we found somebody who does, and we're going to figure it out together.

00:01:22 Then we're going to talk about wearables.

00:01:24 And the idea that wearables are just smartwatches feels wrong to me.

00:01:30 Like, I wear an Apple Watch.

00:01:31 I love my Apple Watch.

00:01:32 But we were promised this big revolution in wearable technology, and I don't think we

00:01:37 ever really got it.

00:01:38 So we're going to try to figure out why.

00:01:39 All that is coming up in just a second.

00:01:42 But first, I have to go home and make my face and hair look better before I have to do this

00:01:46 again.

00:01:47 This is the Verge Cast.

00:01:48 Let's go.

00:01:49 Welcome back.

00:01:52 All right.

00:01:53 Let's talk about how to have good password hygiene on the internet, which is the least

00:01:59 interesting thing I could possibly imagine saying to begin this.

00:02:03 But that's actually part of why I want to talk about this.

00:02:06 I feel like I've spent most of my life scolding people to have better passwords and use a

00:02:11 password manager and get two-factor authentication, but not SMS two-factor authentication.

00:02:16 And it turns out most people just don't care.

00:02:19 And even I still use the same password across way too many services.

00:02:23 It's a real problem.

00:02:24 But there's this one new technology called Passkeys that in theory might be the solution

00:02:29 to all of our problems.

00:02:30 It's designed to be more secure than passwords and also simpler than passwords and basically

00:02:35 just better in every imaginable way.

00:02:37 And it's growing really fast.

00:02:38 Google supports Passkeys now.

00:02:40 So does Amazon, iOS and Android both do.

00:02:43 You can Passkey log into TikTok and WhatsApp and Uber and PayPal and a whole bunch of other

00:02:48 services.

00:02:49 This tech is very much catching on in a way a lot of the supposed replacements to the

00:02:54 password haven't in the past.

00:02:56 But I have to confess, I don't really understand Passkeys.

00:03:00 I mean, I understand the theory.

00:03:01 They use an encrypted token on your device to authenticate you rather than a password

00:03:05 that you type into a text box.

00:03:07 That's about all I understand about it.

00:03:09 So I invited onto the show somebody who knows much better.

00:03:12 Anna Poblitz, head of passwordless at 1Password.

00:03:16 Anna has been working on passwordless tech for a long time.

00:03:19 So I asked her to come on the show and explain to me how Passkeys work, why everyone is convinced

00:03:24 they're the future, and most of all, how we as normal humans are supposed to use them

00:03:30 in our lives.

00:03:31 One note before we get into it, she talks a bunch about 1Password specifically, which

00:03:35 makes sense.

00:03:36 I mean, that's where she works.

00:03:37 But a lot of what she's talking about is true for most password managers and most platforms.

00:03:42 That's part of the point of Passkeys is that they are the same everywhere.

00:03:45 She also makes a point later on in the interview about the upsides of a third-party cross-platform

00:03:51 password manager rather than using the ones built into your device.

00:03:54 And I actually think that argument is pretty compelling.

00:03:57 But again, there are a lot of good options there, and you kind of can't go wrong.

00:04:01 Anyway, let's get into it.

00:04:02 The first thing I asked Anna about is basically why haven't we killed passwords yet?

00:04:07 It's been the death of password for forever.

00:04:10 Passkeys are supposedly the end of passwords, but I've heard that so, so, so many times

00:04:15 before.

00:04:15 So what is it about passwords that means they just won't go away?

00:04:19 We've been talking about how passwords are bad for like 20, 25 years, right?

00:04:24 Since passwords.

00:04:25 Yes, exactly.

00:04:25 Like over and over again.

00:04:27 So why now?

00:04:28 Seems like a very reasonable question.

00:04:30 And I think the truth is that this is the first time where security and user experience

00:04:36 aren't mutually exclusive.

00:04:38 If you think about previous attempts to either improve the security of passwords or replace

00:04:42 passwords, they always come at the expense of user experience.

00:04:46 So, for example, multi-factor authentication.

00:04:49 Add security to passwords by requiring a TOTP code or an email or something like that.

00:04:55 But that's an extra thing that a user has to do to log in.

00:04:58 If you think about certain types of biometrics, like proprietary biometrics, that's some sort

00:05:02 of hardware that you need to add into the mix.

00:05:04 And so there's always this extra step or extra thing that a user has to think about.

00:05:10 But with Passkeys, the idea is that you don't have to compromise on those things.

00:05:14 You're going to get better security and you'll also get a really smooth, frictionless sign-in

00:05:19 process.

00:05:19 So from a pure user experience perspective, I think it's right to say people will do the

00:05:26 simplest thing, right?

00:05:27 And even when we know it's bad, even when it's terrible hygiene that everybody agrees

00:05:32 is bad, I think most people intellectually know don't use the same crappy password for

00:05:37 every single thing.

00:05:38 And yet most people do because it is just the easiest thing to do.

00:05:41 And it's very annoying to remember all of your different passwords.

00:05:43 In a funny way, it seems like the bar is both very low in that you have to replace people's

00:05:49 crummy passwords with something more secure, but also very high because actually remembering

00:05:53 one password that is just one, two, three, four, and then typing that in everywhere is

00:05:58 actually a pretty good user experience.

00:06:00 Certainly a good user experience, yes.

00:06:02 But the bar is so low on the security side.

00:06:05 It leads to bad things, I suppose.

00:06:06 Yeah, exactly.

00:06:07 So when I think about all the things that are wrong with passwords, for me, it really

00:06:12 comes down to the fact that passwords put all of the burden on a user to be secure,

00:06:17 right?

00:06:18 It's on you as a person to think up good passwords, remember them, not use the same

00:06:23 one everywhere, not fall for a phishing attack, all of these things.

00:06:26 But with Passkeys, the goal is we can actually remove the human error completely from logging

00:06:32 into apps.

00:06:33 And so if we give you something that's easy and frictionless and the security is actually

00:06:37 built into the technology, then there's nothing for you to do wrong, right?

00:06:41 Like, it just works.

00:06:42 So in the case of Passkeys, when you're logging in, all it does, it looks and feels to you

00:06:47 like you're just unlocking your device, usually something like Face ID, Touch ID, Windows

00:06:52 Hello.

00:06:53 And so it looks and feels like something that is familiar to you, something you know how

00:06:57 to do.

00:06:58 And there's nothing, there's no thought you have to put into it of, "Did I pick my most

00:07:02 secure Passkey?"

00:07:03 Right?

00:07:04 It's just kind of all happening behind the scenes.

00:07:06 That's really smart because I think so much of this stuff, and we talk about this with

00:07:10 sort of security and privacy in all forms on the internet, it all ends in scolding,

00:07:15 right?

00:07:15 You kind of have to make people feel bad and scare them in certain ways in order to just

00:07:20 like beat them into having good behavior.

00:07:21 And what it actually is, is if you give people a better product that is also safer, they'll

00:07:26 do it.

00:07:26 And if you make them feel bad, they still won't change their ways.

00:07:29 And I think what this whole industry seems to be coming around to in a cool way is like,

00:07:32 "What if we just built better products?"

00:07:34 And I think that's very exciting.

00:07:36 Yeah, totally.

00:07:37 Like, it's not that people don't want to be secure.

00:07:40 I think that's not where this is coming from.

00:07:42 That's not why passwords have stayed around.

00:07:44 It's sort of just like an inertia.

00:07:46 Like, it is what people know how to do, and it's there.

00:07:48 And there's never really been an option that feels a lot better.

00:07:52 Like, I used to do security consulting for a number of years, and we would work with

00:07:56 these companies and we'd tell them like, "Hey, you have a weak password policy," or "You

00:08:01 need to add two-factor," all these controls around your account security.

00:08:04 And especially for consumer-facing applications, they'd be like, "I mean, I could, but that's

00:08:09 going to hurt my user conversions.

00:08:11 People aren't going to sign up for my application."

00:08:13 And so that trade-off was never worth it to them, right?

00:08:16 But with Passkeys, you can actually, like, we can say, "This is actually going to help

00:08:19 your conversions.

00:08:20 Users will sign up faster for your application."

00:08:22 And so all of a sudden, there's also a business reason to use Passkeys, not just a security

00:08:27 reason.

00:08:28 Yeah.

00:08:28 Where did Passkeys come from?

00:08:29 I feel like in the time I've been covering this space, there was a minute where it was

00:08:33 like, "Everybody's going to have a YubiKey, and that's the solution."

00:08:36 And then we got into two-factor in all of its many different forms.

00:08:40 And I think we went from bad two-factor over SMS to pretty good two-factor inside of apps

00:08:45 like 1Password and Authy and some of the other stuff around.

00:08:47 And Passkeys kind of crept up on me a little bit over the last couple of years.

00:08:51 But my sense is they've been around longer than most people realize as kind of a possibility

00:08:56 and an idea.

00:08:57 Like, where did this come from?

00:08:58 Yeah, so there's a technology that kind of underlies Passkeys called WebAuthn that's

00:09:03 been around for probably about 10 years, I think.

00:09:06 And there's a group called the Fido Alliance that's like an industry organization.

00:09:10 A lot of big companies are a part of it, and they're all focused on bringing passwordless

00:09:15 authentication to the world.

00:09:17 And so this protocol was invented.

00:09:18 It's the same thing that YubiKeys use that's used to provide this sort of public key cryptography

00:09:25 based authentication.

00:09:26 So it's been around for a really long time, but you usually had to have some sort of hardware

00:09:31 key like a YubiKey.

00:09:32 And so it might work really well in a workforce or corporate environment, but could be really

00:09:38 challenging for the everyday people who don't just have a YubiKey, right?

00:09:41 I got a YubiKey.

00:09:42 I set up everything on my YubiKey, and then I realized the place I leave my keys is several

00:09:47 rooms away from where I sit.

00:09:49 Right, it's not near your computer.

00:09:50 Like, my keys are upstairs right now with my YubiKey on them, and there is no chance

00:09:53 I'm going to use it.

00:09:54 Exactly.

00:09:54 Like, the fact that you even have one is really rare.

00:09:57 And so a couple years ago, there was this big announcement from the major platform saying,

00:10:02 "We're now supporting what we're calling passkeys, which is essentially WebAuthn credentials

00:10:07 that can be synced between your platform account."

00:10:10 So now, instead of being tied to hardware, those passkeys are stored in your iCloud account

00:10:15 or your Google or your Microsoft account, and more recently, maybe your 1Password account,

00:10:20 which we'll obviously get into at some point.

00:10:22 But the idea is that now, these credentials are a little bit more accessible.

00:10:26 You don't need special hardware.

00:10:28 They'll sync between your different devices a little bit better to make it a little bit

00:10:32 easier for you to access them.

00:10:33 And that's been the big push that you're hearing about in the last couple years.

00:10:38 Got it.

00:10:39 Okay.

00:10:39 Was there a technical development that made that possible?

00:10:43 Like, what happened between a decade ago and maybe two years ago when this really started

00:10:48 to become a thing that kind of tipped it into, "This is a thing we can do in a real mainstream

00:10:52 way now"?

00:10:52 Yeah, it was really this syncing concept.

00:10:55 And so, Apple, Google, Microsoft saying, like, "Yes, instead of storing these credentials

00:11:00 in, like, a secure enclave on a device, we can store them securely in your cloud account,

00:11:06 and we can sync them between these different devices."

00:11:08 So, you know, in some really, really high-assurance environments, that might be a little bit of

00:11:13 a security tradeoff, right?

00:11:14 Because you don't have as much hardware security there.

00:11:17 But for most consumer use cases, if you're logging into Home Depot or Netflix or things

00:11:22 like that, that's actually still a really good security story, and it's way, way better

00:11:26 than password.

00:11:26 So you're still getting all of those sort of unfishable security benefits of passkeys,

00:11:32 but with a little bit more user-friendliness.

00:11:35 Got it.

00:11:35 Okay.

00:11:35 Yeah, so talk to me about the unfishable part of this, because I think I was reading through

00:11:39 in preparing for this a bunch of the criticisms people have of kind of all of the password

00:11:44 replacing technology.

00:11:45 And there are two I want to talk about.

00:11:47 One is, "Now everything is on my one device.

00:11:50 What happens if I lose my device?"

00:11:51 We'll get to that in a second, because I think that's very interesting, and also just happened

00:11:54 to me recently.

00:11:54 So we'll talk about that.

00:11:55 But the other one is people saying, "Well, actually, secure passwords are part of the

00:12:00 problem, but the bigger problem is phishing, and it's people social engineering their way

00:12:06 into my accounts.

00:12:06 And actually, what we have to solve is that problem, and not people having bad passwords.

00:12:11 Because if somebody can convince me to type in my password on a fake webpage, we've solved

00:12:15 nothing."

00:12:16 But the belief with Passkeys is that they actually solve most, if not all, of that problem

00:12:20 too, right?

00:12:21 How does that work?

00:12:22 Yeah, so there's a few really big security benefits with Passkeys.

00:12:26 So there's kind of the obvious of like, you know, there is no user-generated secret type

00:12:31 of thing that someone could guess, that they could just, you know, reuse across a bunch

00:12:36 of websites and guess.

00:12:36 "I can't leak you a password if I don't have a password," I guess is something.

00:12:39 Exactly.

00:12:40 "If I don't know what it is, you can't guess it."

00:12:43 So that's really big, right?

00:12:44 There's a lot of attacks that can happen remotely and at scale that things like credential

00:12:49 stuffing are really common against websites.

00:12:51 So those things kind of all go away because there just really isn't a credential in the

00:12:56 traditional sense.

00:12:57 Now, the other big thing is, of course, resistance to phishing attacks.

00:13:01 So Passkeys are tied to a specific website or domain.

00:13:06 And so if an attacker were to make a lookalike site, you know, facebook.com with zeros instead

00:13:11 of O's, your Passkey for facebook.com will not be used on Facebook, the lookalike site,

00:13:18 right?

00:13:19 Those Passkeys simply aren't transferable.

00:13:20 They're not the same thing.

00:13:21 Because the key on your phone and the key on fake Facebook just will literally will

00:13:26 not understand each other.

00:13:27 Exactly.

00:13:27 Like that key won't be used on that site at sort of at the device level, at the browser

00:13:32 level, like all there's a lot of protections in place to sort of tie these Passkeys to

00:13:36 a specific domain.

00:13:38 And so at least for that specific type of phishing attack, where which is really common,

00:13:42 you have a lookalike site, they ask you for your password, and then they reuse it on the

00:13:46 real site.

00:13:47 That just kind of totally goes away.

00:13:49 And I think that's really big, especially right now, there's so many news articles around

00:13:54 like AI and how AI is making it even easier to make really realistic phishing attacks.

00:14:00 This type of prevention of that whole swath of attacks is really, really big and just

00:14:05 gives people a little bit more confidence, I think when using the internet that you don't

00:14:09 have to constantly wonder, is this the real site?

00:14:12 Is this a real email?

00:14:13 Like, do I need to double check?

00:14:14 Like, I think just giving people a little more confidence in that way is helpful.

00:14:18 Well, and there's a weird tension in that even that it feels too easy, honestly, using

00:14:23 Passkeys sometimes where it's like, this can't actually be solving my problem.

00:14:27 All I did was tap the thing, the pop up on my phone that said, "We cool?"

00:14:31 And I said, "Yeah, we cool."

00:14:33 And then I now I'm logged in, like, at least with a password, you kind of understand I

00:14:37 am delivering something that is a secret in order to allow me in.

00:14:41 And there is something to the fact that this is so simple that it almost feels less secure,

00:14:46 even though it's not.

00:14:47 I don't know, part of me wants you to like, make it seem scarier every time I do it, because

00:14:51 it'll make it feel more secure.

00:14:53 This is actually a very real thing that I think I've seen that people in the Fido Alliance

00:14:59 have seen when you do research with end users that they're kind of like, "Oh, okay, I guess

00:15:04 I logged in."

00:15:05 Like, they maybe don't even recognize that they actually like, registered for or logged

00:15:09 into an application.

00:15:09 And they're like, "Okay, I guess that was okay.

00:15:11 How am I going to do that next time?"

00:15:13 Or they don't totally understand.

00:15:15 And so there's been a ton of research done on the best ways to communicate to users what's

00:15:19 going on, which I think is so important as websites start to roll out Passkeys that the

00:15:24 user experience there is just so important to make sure users are like, "Oh, okay, like,

00:15:29 this looks and feels like my Touch ID.

00:15:30 Like, I understand what I'm doing here," and kind of giving them that experience.

00:15:34 But it is really hard, which is, it's silly, kind of silly that, you know, security has

00:15:38 to look hard.

00:15:39 Like, people are used to security being hard for it to work.

00:15:43 And so it's kind of breaking that stereotype.

00:15:45 - And that kind of goes to the other piece of feedback I've seen a bunch about Passkeys,

00:15:48 which is that we've all been trained now that you have to have two factors, right?

00:15:52 There's the thing you know and the thing you have.

00:15:54 And the thing I know is my password, and the thing I have is my phone.

00:15:58 Great, that is better than just a password.

00:16:00 And there's something to kind of compressing all of that back down into a Passkey that,

00:16:06 like, I just, I don't even remember, I, like, tweeted or something about Passkeys in one

00:16:10 password being like, "This is cool.

00:16:12 It's, I can now have all of my stuff in both apps."

00:16:14 And I got a bunch of responses from people being like, "That's not two-factor security.

00:16:17 That's one-factor security because it all just lives inside of one password."

00:16:20 And I was like, "I don't think that's true, but I'm not."

00:16:23 But I sort of see the point, right, where it's now, as long as I'm holding my phone,

00:16:27 there's no other jobs to do.

00:16:29 And I wonder if part of that is, again, you're sort of obfuscating the steps in the name of

00:16:34 simplicity that actually makes it feel like I'm not doing the hard work of being secure anymore.

00:16:39 - Yeah, I think that's really fair.

00:16:41 And I think, you know, we've talked about these traditional authentication factors,

00:16:44 something you know, something you have, something you are, or whatever.

00:16:47 And talking about Passkeys in that sense is, like, a little bit confusing, but I think we,

00:16:51 I kind of do it anyway to help explain to people.

00:16:53 I think the easiest way to think about it is it's something that you have.

00:16:56 It's whatever device you're currently logged on to, say, your Google device or your 1Pass,

00:17:02 whatever your 1Pass, your browser extension or your desktop app.

00:17:05 And then it's also something you either have or are or know or something like that, depending on,

00:17:11 you know, it's either your Touch ID, Face ID, your PIN, your 1Password password and secret key.

00:17:16 It can be, like, whatever that other factor is that you're actually using to log into the

00:17:20 account where your Passkey is stored.

00:17:22 But there's always a little bit of a, like, device ownership aspect to that,

00:17:26 which kind of gives you that second factor.

00:17:28 And so it's a little bit like square peg, round hole, but I think you can kind of roughly put

00:17:32 Passkeys into that bucket to help people feel a little bit better about that.

00:17:36 - Okay.

00:17:37 Yeah.

00:17:37 So the two factors then, if you were to sort of boil it all the way down, would basically be

00:17:40 my phone and the information required to log into my phone.

00:17:44 - Exactly.

00:17:45 - Which is two things.

00:17:46 And I think, ironically, back to the, like, this is almost too easy thing,

00:17:50 I think if you were forced to type in your passcode every time, it would make more sense.

00:17:54 Whereas with the Face ID or the Windows Hello, it kind of, it almost happens so fast

00:17:58 that you lose track of it.

00:17:59 And it's like, "Well, I didn't have to authenticate anything."

00:18:02 And it's like, "No, you did.

00:18:02 It just happened really quickly and automatically."

00:18:04 Which is a great thing, but kind of an alarming one to get used to at first.

00:18:07 Like, it certainly took me a few tries to realize, "Oh, it's doing Face ID every single time

00:18:12 my Passkey comes up," because that's part of the authentication process.

00:18:15 - Exactly.

00:18:16 And I don't think people think about that when they're just unlocking their phone to use it.

00:18:20 Like, they don't necessarily think too hard about it.

00:18:22 It's just become sort of second nature.

00:18:24 But maybe it was like that at the beginning, and it was like, "Oh my gosh, my password,

00:18:27 my phone's not locked."

00:18:28 But yeah, I think it's like, you almost don't notice because you're so used to using your Face

00:18:31 ID or your Touch ID for all sorts of things, right?

00:18:34 Like, a lot of apps use that technology just to unlock an app.

00:18:37 And so the idea is we are using the thing that's familiar to people.

00:18:41 It's just getting people comfortable with that technology in a new context, like a website

00:18:46 or an app.

00:18:46 - What do you make of the idea of tying a lot of this stuff to a device?

00:18:51 I think on the one hand, phones are sort of inextricable parts of us at this point.

00:18:55 Like, my phone's right here, and my YubiKey is upstairs.

00:18:58 Like, that is a telling fact, right?

00:18:59 But at the same time, I had this moment the other week where I woke up one morning, and

00:19:03 my phone had updated overnight and was bricked.

00:19:05 The touchscreen didn't work.

00:19:06 I couldn't do anything.

00:19:06 And I had this moment of realizing like, "Oh, I can't do two factors because I can't get

00:19:10 SMSs.

00:19:11 I can't see them anymore.

00:19:12 I can't get into my one password account because it's just sitting here on

00:19:16 my phone.

00:19:17 I can't text my wife."

00:19:18 And like, I had this crazy moment of being like, "Oh, I am way too reliant on my phone

00:19:22 to work and have a charge and be sitting here nearby me all the time.

00:19:25 And otherwise, my life kind of falls apart."

00:19:28 And I think there is a reflexive worry that people have about that.

00:19:32 That it's like, the nice thing about having a bunch of insecure passwords stored in my

00:19:36 head is the battery doesn't die.

00:19:38 - Yeah, they're always there.

00:19:39 - Right.

00:19:40 And so like, is it the right path to go down, you think, to tie it to these devices in that

00:19:45 way?

00:19:46 - I think it's better to think about it less as tying it to a device and more of tying

00:19:51 it to your like, platform account.

00:19:54 So if you're an Apple user primarily, you know, you have an iPhone and a MacBook and

00:19:59 all that, you probably use your iCloud account to store your contacts and to store a lot

00:20:04 of stuff.

00:20:04 And so when you get a new phone, for example, you log into iCloud and like, you recover

00:20:09 all of your data in that way, right?

00:20:11 - Right.

00:20:11 - And so I think thinking about it that way is a little bit more realistic, to be honest,

00:20:17 of sort of the current state of passkeys, where it's challenging.

00:20:20 It's the same way like you lose your phone, it's really annoying to recover all of that

00:20:23 data.

00:20:24 But passkeys will get recovered.

00:20:26 If you think back to like, the old web auth end days, your passkeys were like, impossible

00:20:31 to recover in that situation.

00:20:32 And so that's one of the big problems we were trying to solve is to make account recovery

00:20:36 a little bit more possible.

00:20:38 I think that's also a really big benefit to using something like 1Password.

00:20:42 So I use a MacBook laptop, but I have an Android phone.

00:20:46 And so I have this like cross-platform situation in my life that isn't really ideal for passkeys,

00:20:51 to be honest, because a passkey on my Android phone doesn't really naturally translate to

00:20:56 my MacBook.

00:20:57 It's this really kind of weird QR code experience.

00:21:00 But instead, I use 1Password for everything.

00:21:02 - Okay.

00:21:03 - And then the idea is that then because 1Password works across platforms, my passkeys live in

00:21:09 my 1Password account.

00:21:11 They don't live on my phone.

00:21:12 They don't live on my laptop.

00:21:13 They live in my 1Password account.

00:21:14 And as long as I can get into my 1Password account, which ironically, soon you might

00:21:18 do through a passkey, which we should talk about, then I kind of have it wherever I am.

00:21:22 - Exactly.

00:21:22 - That structure makes sense to me because then you're on, as long as you can log into

00:21:26 something, which I think in the year 2024 is a pretty reasonable assumption to make.

00:21:31 But that brings me to the question of logging into all of my passkeys with a passkey.

00:21:36 And I just think part of what's really interesting about that is 1Password is very much starting

00:21:41 to try to own the whole security stack, right?

00:21:44 Like, I now have two factor codes in my 1Password.

00:21:47 I have my passkeys in my 1Password.

00:21:50 And I would think that raises the stakes pretty dramatically for 1Password that now if something

00:21:56 bad happens to my 1Password stuff, not only is someone going to get control of my passwords,

00:22:01 they're going to get control of everything.

00:22:03 And one piece of security advice that I've heard from people over and over and over is

00:22:07 don't store everything in one place because you should assume everything is insecure and

00:22:12 essentially don't let the two sides of the coin talk to each other.

00:22:15 And you're kind of saying the opposite, which is like, put everything in this one place

00:22:18 because it's simpler and better.

00:22:21 And I certainly agree that it's simpler, but does it change the way you have to think about

00:22:25 even the security of 1Password itself?

00:22:27 - That's a really interesting question.

00:22:29 I actually don't think it does because our whole thing from the beginning has been that

00:22:35 we take your security and privacy really seriously.

00:22:38 Everything is end-to-end encrypted.

00:22:40 Like, 1Password has no access to anyone's actual credentials.

00:22:44 And I don't necessarily see a password as being any different from a passkey from like

00:22:49 the 1Password perspective.

00:22:51 It's ultimately just a credential material of some sort that we're storing and we're

00:22:55 gonna protect the same way that we would credit card data or social security numbers or like

00:23:01 whatever data you wanna store with us, right?

00:23:03 I try my best instead of saying password manager to say credential manager or something along

00:23:08 those lines because it is so much more than passwords and has been for a really long time.

00:23:12 And so I actually don't think it changes our security model that much.

00:23:16 We're always looking to like upgrade that and like, what can we do to improve?

00:23:20 Which is where, you know, obviously using a passkey to sign into 1Password comes in.

00:23:24 Right now we have that password and secret key sort of model.

00:23:28 We have like SSO support if you're a business customer, but for the most part, it's kind

00:23:32 of that two-factor, the secret key is sort of a device key.

00:23:36 And so we're always looking for ways to upgrade that, which is why we've been exploring passkey

00:23:39 login, which would be really incredible to add to 1Password.

00:23:43 Yeah.

00:23:43 Why does that feel like the right way to do the sort of master login?

00:23:48 I think part of what I'm getting at here is I think what we're boiling down to is there

00:23:52 being one sort of crucial login, right?

00:23:55 Whether it's the passcode on my phone or my master password for 1Password, like there

00:24:00 is going to be one thing I have to know, and that is the thing that opens up everything

00:24:05 else.

00:24:06 And I think with phones, one reason people are nervous is like the Wall Street Journal

00:24:09 did a bunch of really good reporting about people having their phones stolen and their

00:24:13 passcodes read.

00:24:13 And that becomes even scarier in this world where my passkeys also live on my phone because

00:24:18 now all you need to know is the four digits I use to log into my phone, and you can have

00:24:22 everything.

00:24:23 And with something like 1Password, now it's like I literally don't know any of my passwords

00:24:28 except my 1Password password anymore, which I think in a lot of ways is the intended behavior.

00:24:32 And that makes sense to me.

00:24:33 I don't reuse that password anywhere.

00:24:34 I don't even have that password written down anywhere.

00:24:37 It's just it's the one password I have memorized.

00:24:39 But now you're trying to even replace that.

00:24:41 Why?

00:24:42 Yeah.

00:24:43 So the good news is like in 1Password's case in particular, so I'll speak really just about

00:24:47 that, but you have this password and you have this secret key.

00:24:50 And so even in just the state of the world right now with 1Password, if someone were

00:24:55 to get your master password, that really long one, the one that you have to remember, they

00:24:59 actually still can't get into your 1Password account unless they also steal a device that

00:25:04 you have 1Password on already, which is really great, right?

00:25:07 That's a good starting point.

00:25:08 But now what if we also make it even harder for someone to steal that password because

00:25:13 it's not a password, right?

00:25:14 It's not even something you know.

00:25:16 Now, yes, that passkey does have to then live somewhere, right?

00:25:20 So it has to live in your platform account or in a YubiKey or something along those lines.

00:25:24 So there is kind of this like vicious cycle of where does the final passkey live?

00:25:30 And I don't know that that's like a perfectly solved problem right now, but still a way

00:25:35 better experience than right now.

00:25:36 So we're working through it.

00:25:38 Yeah, I agree with that.

00:25:39 I mean, it is just really interesting.

00:25:40 I think you're exactly right that at some point there is the one thing and the question

00:25:45 of what the one thing should be.

00:25:47 I don't know that we know yet.

00:25:48 I don't know that we've answered it.

00:25:49 And I think the idea of it being a hardware thing that lives on my keyring makes a lot

00:25:53 of sense but has downsides.

00:25:55 There's like the perfect version of it would be like it lives in a safe somewhere far away

00:25:59 where no one can get to it.

00:26:00 But that obviously is a disastrous user experience.

00:26:03 But also somehow you can get to it.

00:26:05 Right, exactly.

00:26:06 I can teleport into it when necessary, but that's it.

00:26:09 Yeah, do you have any sense of what the best available version of that is?

00:26:13 Is it your phone at the moment?

00:26:15 Like the device you have?

00:26:16 Yeah, I think the current state of that is we recommend that your Passkey 4.1 password

00:26:22 lives in whatever your platform account is or your UbiKey, right?

00:26:25 In your iCloud, your Google, we typically recommend that you have a backup because obviously

00:26:30 if you lose it, it's just kind of a pain to be honest to recover if you kind of lose that

00:26:34 master one.

00:26:34 So we recommend you have some backups.

00:26:36 And so it's kind of the state of the world right now.

00:26:38 I think in an ideal world, it's something much more about your real life identity, like

00:26:43 your human identity that can identify you to a computer, right?

00:26:46 And like, none of that stuff is real yet.

00:26:48 But there's a lot of really exciting things that people think about in the future and

00:26:52 are working on of ways to kind of like tie those things together, but in a way that also

00:26:57 still is like privacy preserving in some way, right?

00:27:00 It still protects your identity online, but it makes a stronger sense of who you actually

00:27:06 are on the internet.

00:27:07 And how broad can Passkeys be in that sense?

00:27:10 I mean, you mentioned wanting to log people in quicker and making the case that they're

00:27:14 more likely to complete transactions that way, right?

00:27:16 I just think about the number of carts I have left on purchased because typing in my address

00:27:22 and credit card number is really annoying, like much less setting up an account, even

00:27:25 the like guest flow is a giant pain.

00:27:28 Can Passkeys be a store of information beyond passwords in that sense?

00:27:32 Is that even a thing people are thinking about?

00:27:34 It definitely is.

00:27:36 It's not really inherent in Passkeys themselves, but there's a lot of sort of like additional

00:27:40 like wallet type of technology or other types of technology that people are talking about

00:27:45 and working on that is kind of like that, where it's more about other information that's

00:27:49 being stored.

00:27:50 It's almost like that password manager experience, right?

00:27:52 Where you can store your address and your credit card information to autofill because

00:27:57 no one likes that.

00:27:57 I don't want to have to make an account.

00:27:59 I want to be able to check out as a guest, but I don't want to type all that information.

00:28:02 So there is a lot of work to be done on like doing that in a more like cryptographic secure

00:28:06 way like Passkeys, but the technology as it exists today doesn't really support that just

00:28:11 yet.

00:28:11 It's really exciting though.

00:28:12 It is really exciting.

00:28:14 I mean, and that's the kind of thing, if it goes from, I have to type in all of this information

00:28:18 about me on the internet over and over ad nauseum to I have a secure version of all

00:28:22 the relevant information about me and I can just dole it out in secure ways whenever I

00:28:27 need it.

00:28:27 Like that's just a better internet.

00:28:29 That's how this should all work.

00:28:31 That's the dream.

00:28:32 Yes.

00:28:32 And it does seem like increasingly the companies who are storing things like my home address

00:28:38 and my credit card information and my password don't want that anymore because it's a security

00:28:42 risk.

00:28:42 Like I can't imagine if I'm Best Buy or Home Depot, I want any of the risk that comes

00:28:47 with that anymore.

00:28:47 So I would think most of these businesses would be psyched to figure out how to make

00:28:51 this stuff work, right?

00:28:53 Yeah.

00:28:53 I think that's the same way that companies would want to get rid of passwords or any

00:28:57 really like PII they're storing, right?

00:28:59 If they can offload any of that risk and not have a giant database table full of something

00:29:05 that people are looking for, you know, I think that's obviously a win, right?

00:29:09 And so I think Passkey solved that security benefit, the sort of compliance regulations

00:29:15 around like there's a lot of good reasons.

00:29:17 And I think it's the companies who are excited to make a like user and security improvement.

00:29:24 Like those are the companies that I'm seeing like most excited about Passkeys.

00:29:28 So if you fast forward, I don't know, two, five, 10 years, however long it takes for

00:29:32 Passkeys to become like truly mainstream, is there any case left for either having a

00:29:38 password that I type into a website or the flip side having like the login with Google

00:29:44 login with Apple stuff?

00:29:46 Like as Passkeys get really good, does everything else disappear or do those things kind of

00:29:51 have their place too?

00:29:52 Yeah, I think passwords are never really going to fully go away.

00:29:57 But I would hope that maybe like 90% of passwords can go away, especially for the types of apps

00:30:04 that we as people just like use every day, right?

00:30:07 Our banks, our Netflix, our online shopping, like those types of things I think are kind

00:30:13 of perfect use cases for Passkeys.

00:30:16 I think there's a lot of good uses for more like social login, like a login with Google

00:30:20 or something like that, because maybe they need access to your email, you're sharing

00:30:24 other types of information that you get from having that connection.

00:30:27 And then there'll probably always be some apps that just use passwords.

00:30:30 And maybe it's a password and a Passkey as a second factor of authentication or something

00:30:35 like that.

00:30:35 But I would hope that for most of the things you're using every day, we could get to a

00:30:40 point where Passkeys are working for those types of apps.

00:30:42 All right, we got to take a break.

00:30:45 And then we're going to talk about wearables.

00:30:47 We'll be right back.

00:30:48 [Music]

00:30:55 Welcome back.

00:30:56 Over the last couple of years, it feels like the wearable industry has boomed.

00:31:00 You have the Apple Watch and the Pixel Watch and the Galaxy Watch all getting pretty popular

00:31:05 and pretty good.

00:31:06 But it also feels like the wearable industry has kind of died.

00:31:09 I don't know, it just feels like a few years ago, there was all this energy to bring tech

00:31:14 to our bodies and give us stuff to hold and wear and clip on that would do all kinds of

00:31:19 computery things on our bodies in simpler ways.

00:31:23 And now there's just smartwatches.

00:31:24 And they're basically all just health devices.

00:31:26 And that's just what there is now.

00:31:29 So is this just the way it goes from now on?

00:31:31 Is this what the wearables industry has become and will be forever?

00:31:35 To help me figure it out, I grabbed Vsong, who is the Verge's wearables reviewer and

00:31:39 the person wearing the most gadgets at any given time that I have ever met in my entire

00:31:42 life.

00:31:43 Vsong, welcome back.

00:31:45 Hi.

00:31:45 How many wearables do you have on you right now?

00:31:48 Four.

00:31:48 What are they?

00:31:49 Are you allowed to talk about all four of them?

00:31:51 Yes.

00:31:51 I have the Weideng ScanWatch Lite.

00:31:54 Okay.

00:31:54 I have the Apple Watch Ultra 2, the Oura Ring Gen 3, and the EV Ring.

00:31:59 Okay.

00:32:00 Two smartwatches, two smart rings.

00:32:02 Pure redundancy.

00:32:03 So many things counting your step and giving you dubious information about yourself.

00:32:08 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:09 It's what we like to call a control device.

00:32:12 So I actually use the Oura Ring to test all sleep tracking.

00:32:15 Okay.

00:32:15 Just because they're like, "Oh, we're a sleep tracker.

00:32:17 They're pretty accurate for certain metrics."

00:32:19 So I have that and my bed also tracks sleeping.

00:32:22 There's just a lot of control devices to control for accuracy.

00:32:26 So do you wake up in the morning and get six different scores on how you slept?

00:32:30 Yes, I do.

00:32:31 That sounds awful.

00:32:32 One score stresses me out.

00:32:34 I get six different scores and then while I'm brushing my teeth, I compare all of them and

00:32:38 I go, "Oh, you're not accurate."

00:32:40 Or that sort of stuff.

00:32:42 So yeah.

00:32:43 That's the behind the scenes of wearables testing.

00:32:46 That's good stuff.

00:32:47 I gave up on sleep tracking the third day that I woke up feeling like crap and it was like,

00:32:52 "Congratulations on hitting your sleep goal."

00:32:54 It's like, "I don't know if I did or didn't, but screw you."

00:32:56 To be fair, a lot of sleep tracking is kind of dubious in terms of accuracy.

00:33:01 It's not...

00:33:02 You know when you usually take a grain of salt?

00:33:04 Take two with sleep tracking.

00:33:06 So that's just how it is.

00:33:07 Yeah.

00:33:08 Okay, but I want to talk about the state of wearables because I feel like there's been

00:33:12 a bunch of news about wearables in the last few weeks.

00:33:13 There was a bunch of stuff at CES.

00:33:15 We're in kind of a weird place right now.

00:33:18 And I have a bunch of theories about this, but let's start with Fossil because I feel

00:33:21 like Fossil as a company was trying to do something different and interesting and had

00:33:27 a really sort of cool idea about what smartwatches could be.

00:33:30 So it's really sad that Fossil is now a fossil, but like...

00:33:37 Well, that's to broadcast everybody.

00:33:38 I didn't make that joke in the actual headline, so I had to do it elsewhere because everyone

00:33:43 else was making that joke at me.

00:33:44 So Fossil basically kept Wear OS afloat almost by itself because Fossil is not just Fossil,

00:33:51 it's Diesel, it's Skagen, it's all these other sub-brands.

00:33:54 And for the longest time, if you bought a Wear OS watch, it was a Fossil.

00:33:58 So they kind of kept Google going through all of that time.

00:34:02 And so for them to actually just call it quits, to completely exit the smartwatch industry,

00:34:09 that's really big.

00:34:11 It's kind of just, wow.

00:34:13 It says a lot about where smartwatches are at this point in time in that it's like...

00:34:18 There used to be this notion that Apple was its closed garden and Apple was the main smartwatch

00:34:24 of choice for iOS users, but it's sort of happening in the Wear OS space now too for

00:34:29 Android because it used to be that Android was the Wild West of smartwatches, kind of

00:34:33 like phones, but now it's Google and Samsung, also kind of like phones.

00:34:38 So that's just kind of where we are and Fossil leaving, it kind of cements that.

00:34:43 And I'm actually pretty sad about it.

00:34:45 I am too because it seems like, and I'm realizing now how long ago this was, but if you go back

00:34:49 to like 2017 maybe, 2016, 17, there was this idea that all watches, or at least many watches

00:34:58 of many different styles, many different price points, whatever, were going to become some

00:35:02 kind of smart, right?

00:35:03 There was going to be this whole interesting spectrum where, I remember I went to, I think

00:35:08 it's called Baselworld, this like very fancy watch show in Switzerland one year.

00:35:11 And it was like the year everybody was into smartwatches.

00:35:15 So I was at Wired at the time and I'm sitting down with all these people as they're explaining

00:35:18 the beautiful history behind this $12,000 watch and then they'd be like, "And also Bluetooth,

00:35:23 Wired!"

00:35:24 And I was like, "All right, cool."

00:35:25 But I liked that idea and it was like Withings was doing cool stuff with that, this kind

00:35:29 of like hybrid smartwatch idea where it looked like a watch, it looked like a piece of jewelry,

00:35:33 but also still had some tech in it.

00:35:36 And it feels like everything on that spectrum that isn't an Apple Watch or something that

00:35:40 looks like an Apple Watch is just gone.

00:35:41 Like we've just given up on that idea almost entirely.

00:35:43 It is really weird because for right now, in the last couple of years actually, smartwatches

00:35:49 have just like slowly consumed everything.

00:35:51 Like where has the budget fitness tracker gone?

00:35:53 China.

00:35:54 That's it.

00:35:54 Like that's where most of them are at the moment.

00:35:57 And it used to be that Fitbit had its own...

00:36:00 Fitbit was the word that everyone used, even though it was a brand, they used it to mean

00:36:04 fitness tracker.

00:36:05 It was Kleenex, like in a really real way, it was Kleenex.

00:36:07 That's what Fitbit was.

00:36:08 And now where's Fitbit?

00:36:10 James Park has left.

00:36:12 Very suddenly during CES, I like woke up and I was like, "Are you kidding me?

00:36:15 I'm at CES, please.

00:36:17 Are you kidding me right now?"

00:36:19 But yeah, so that's kind of where Fitbit is.

00:36:21 And it is really just the Apple Watch, the Galaxy Watch or the Pixel Watch at this moment

00:36:25 in time.

00:36:26 And that's really sad.

00:36:27 But to your point, Fossil really embodied that idea of we're going to have so many different

00:36:32 smartwatches in so many different form factors and so many different styles.

00:36:36 There was the Kate Spade watch.

00:36:38 There was the...

00:36:39 They bought Misfit for a while.

00:36:41 Oh, Misfit.

00:36:42 Right?

00:36:42 They had so many cool ideas.

00:36:44 They did.

00:36:44 And like the touch bezel that Samsung basically managed to actually execute and all of that

00:36:50 stuff.

00:36:51 But there used to be a joke I would tell my editors.

00:36:53 It's like, "It's a trade show.

00:36:55 I'm going to go to Fossil."

00:36:56 But, and I did this at Gizmodo a few times.

00:36:58 I was like, "I'm not going to cover every single watch that they release because there's

00:37:01 going to be 20 of them.

00:37:03 I'm just going to take a picture and say, 'Look at all the freaking smartwatches that

00:37:06 Fossil has brought.'"

00:37:07 And they would come to each trade show with, I want to say, like 20 to 30 different watches.

00:37:12 And I'd be in a room and I'd be like, "Okay, what's new about this watch?

00:37:15 This watch is that watch, but Armani."

00:37:18 Right.

00:37:18 "This watch is that watch, but Diesel."

00:37:20 And that kind of gets to the problem of the Fossil watches as well.

00:37:24 Well, yeah.

00:37:24 So-

00:37:24 Diagnose that for me because I think you could make the case that that is actually like an

00:37:28 awesome outcome, right?

00:37:29 Like nobody's mad that there are lots of different brands of T-shirt that are all T-shirts.

00:37:33 Like that's how it should work.

00:37:34 It's fashion.

00:37:35 It lets you make choices.

00:37:36 And we were in this moment where technology was just going to be sort of integrated into

00:37:40 that.

00:37:40 And I liked the idea of having a watch that seemed like a watch, but would also buzz when

00:37:45 I got a phone call and count my steps.

00:37:47 Like that to me was almost everything I wanted from a smartwatch.

00:37:51 And that has died.

00:37:52 And what I can't tell is which of the many things that went wrong are the real problem.

00:37:57 Like I think there's a thing where Google neglected Wear OS for a really long time and

00:38:01 sort of hung Fossil and a bunch of other companies out to dry.

00:38:04 There's a thing where maybe people just didn't want those things.

00:38:06 And maybe I'm wrong and the people who wanted any kind of technology on their wrist wanted

00:38:11 all the technology on their wrist.

00:38:12 So the Apple Watch and the Pixel Watch became the thing.

00:38:14 I don't know.

00:38:14 What's your read of like why that all fell apart?

00:38:16 It's a lot of those things in small increments.

00:38:19 So it is like the fact that Fossil invested so much into the Google system.

00:38:24 And then a couple years back, Google took about $40 million worth of Fossil R&D and

00:38:30 brought it over into Google.

00:38:32 So that was kind of one of the first big signals that Google was going to start taking wearables

00:38:37 seriously again.

00:38:38 But it kind of gutted Fossil a little bit.

00:38:40 And then another problem with Fossil is that the price for the price that you were getting

00:38:44 their watches, you got a software that was kind of not so great.

00:38:49 It was very like jittery.

00:38:52 Things would work and then they wouldn't.

00:38:54 And more often they wouldn't.

00:38:56 The battery life was eh.

00:38:58 So you were just getting a better experience on other smartwatches, but paying a similar

00:39:04 price.

00:39:04 So what you really were paying for was the style and the fashion and the fact that it

00:39:08 didn't look like this giant slab of phone on your wrist.

00:39:12 Right?

00:39:12 You were paying for a watch that looked like a watch.

00:39:15 And then I think another aspect of it is that the people who are going to go for something

00:39:19 like Withings and the hybrids is that they are people who are not going to be buying

00:39:25 on an upgrade cycle very frequently.

00:39:27 True.

00:39:28 You don't buy a nice watch intending to replace it in two years.

00:39:30 Exactly.

00:39:31 And the battery lasts a long time.

00:39:32 Like this has been lasting me for, I want to say, two weeks.

00:39:36 Yeah, that's awesome.

00:39:36 I haven't charged it.

00:39:37 That's what I wanted.

00:39:39 And that is what a lot of people want, but those people aren't the ones going out buying

00:39:43 and upgrading every single year.

00:39:44 Right.

00:39:45 So that's not making the company a lot of money.

00:39:47 So it's one of those paradoxes where planned obsolescence is a shittier product, but it

00:39:54 makes the company a lot more money.

00:39:55 So that's kind of the conflict that you have there.

00:39:58 And I just think the other issue with Wear OS 3 and that transition is that Google clearly

00:40:05 put Samsung first because everything comes to a Samsung watch first.

00:40:08 Right.

00:40:09 And then it'll come to Google.

00:40:10 And then everybody who isn't Samsung or Google kind of gets the short end of the stick.

00:40:14 Mobvoi was the other really well-known Wear OS watch alternative, and they didn't get

00:40:22 Wear OS 3 upgrade until, I want to say December.

00:40:25 Oh, wow.

00:40:26 Like this past December.

00:40:27 It was a thing where Mobvoi users were like, "Hey, you told us that if we were going to

00:40:31 buy this particular TicWatch with the 4100 chip, we were going to get Wear OS 3."

00:40:37 And basically, they waited until December.

00:40:40 That's when the rollout happened.

00:40:43 And Wear OS 4 is already here.

00:40:45 Right.

00:40:45 So now they're just like a generation behind.

00:40:47 They're barely catching up, and they don't even have Google Assistant on their wrist.

00:40:51 And Fossil did have Google Assistant, but they also had to wait a really long time to

00:40:56 get that rollout out.

00:40:58 So I can understand where, from Fossil's perspective, they were just like, "Okay, we didn't even

00:41:02 know Wear OS 3 was happening until you announced it.

00:41:05 What the hell?"

00:41:06 So I had a sense something was not kosher, because Fossil had a very, very regular update

00:41:14 cadence, and they missed it.

00:41:16 Like 2023 was when the Gen 7, if it was going to come out, was going to come out.

00:41:20 Nothing.

00:41:20 And they really were the one company you could rely on to keep caring about this for a long

00:41:25 time.

00:41:26 Every single year.

00:41:26 So CES is up and down with wearables, but every single year, I would reach out to Fossil

00:41:31 and be like, "Hey, guys, what you got going?"

00:41:33 And they're like, "Hey, here's what we got going."

00:41:35 And this year, I reached out, and they're like, "We're not going to be at CES."

00:41:38 And I was like, "Excuse me, hold up."

00:41:40 [Laughter]

00:41:41 So who's he what?

00:41:42 So many just alarm bells were going off.

00:41:44 And I think I reached out to them end of November, early December, and we were talking for a

00:41:49 while, and it wasn't until after CES even that they got back to me, and they're like,

00:41:53 "Hey, we out."

00:41:55 [Laughter]

00:41:56 So...

00:41:56 Yeah.

00:41:58 So that makes me sad, I have to say.

00:42:00 And the other part that makes me sad is I think we skipped past the fitness band thing

00:42:05 way too quickly.

00:42:06 This is a thing you and I have talked about before, and I still believe this very strongly,

00:42:09 that the original Jawbone Up was a perfect gadget, and there should be more of them.

00:42:15 And I don't want to watch, but I want something on my wrist that tracks basic things.

00:42:19 What it seems to be is that instead of bands, rings are going to be that thing.

00:42:24 It seems like the big bet now is that if we're going to do a non-screen, long-lasting, simple

00:42:30 kind of wearable, everybody seems to think rings are the thing.

00:42:34 I mean, rings are big this year.

00:42:35 At CES, there were more rings than I could count.

00:42:38 I would be like, "Doo-doo-doo, I've seen all the rings."

00:42:40 And then I'd turn, and I'd be like, "Nope, there's more rings."

00:42:43 And from names that I had never heard of before.

00:42:45 So I was like, "Oh."

00:42:46 Is it just because Aura worked?

00:42:47 Aura's been in this for a few years.

00:42:49 The product seems to do really well.

00:42:50 I feel like the viral marketing for Aura is very good because you watch a podcast or you

00:42:54 see somebody on TV, and it's like a tech CEO in a vest, and there's a one-in-two chance

00:42:59 they have an Aura ring on.

00:43:00 And it's not just the tech people.

00:43:02 It's the celebrities.

00:43:03 Jennifer Aniston has an Aura ring.

00:43:05 A bunch of sports stars have it.

00:43:06 There was a period of time where I think Kim Kardashian and Gwyneth Paltrow, maybe, were

00:43:12 having a sleep competition with their Auras.

00:43:14 And these people have millions of followers on Instagram, and they were just like, "Ha-ha,

00:43:17 beat you in my Instagram stories."

00:43:19 So Aura really had this, like Prince Harry has an Aura ring.

00:43:24 So they had a lot of buzz in that respect.

00:43:27 But they weren't the only smart ring around.

00:43:29 They just kind of, RIP Motive, that was a smart ring.

00:43:32 Right, yeah.

00:43:33 Had two.

00:43:34 There was the Motive and the Motive ring, too.

00:43:35 And they just kind of like killed them, so to speak.

00:43:40 And it was actually really quiet in the smart ring space for several years.

00:43:44 And that's because smart rings, compared to fitness bands, have a lot of technological

00:43:48 challenges because they're so small.

00:43:50 They're just so entirely small.

00:43:52 But I think we're starting to figure that out.

00:43:55 And then there are some health advantages to a smart ring compared to a fitness band

00:44:00 that really make them good for sleep tracking.

00:44:03 And part of that is just literally where it's placed on your body.

00:44:06 Yeah, so actually, your wrist is terrible for most metrics.

00:44:10 I just learned this recently, that they're like, "Oh, let's put all this stuff on your

00:44:13 wrist," even though your wrist is the worst wrist.

00:44:15 Yeah, so the way these sensors work is that they're shining light into your skin, and

00:44:19 it's reflecting off of your blood.

00:44:21 And so that's how they read your heart rate.

00:44:23 It's a proxy for your pulse rate, yada, yada, yada.

00:44:25 I've written about it a ton.

00:44:25 Just read my stuff.

00:44:26 But the problem is that you have so many tendons.

00:44:30 There's so much movement in your wrist that there's so much signal to noise that it's

00:44:35 very difficult to get an accurate read, which is why if you have a wrist-based wearable

00:44:40 and you're like, "Hmm, this sounds wrong," that plays into it.

00:44:42 But the underside of your finger is a lot more ideal.

00:44:46 There's a lot less noise.

00:44:48 The skin on your palm, no matter how much melanin you have, the skin on your palm is

00:44:53 a lot lighter.

00:44:54 So it kind of removes your skin color a little bit as a barrier to accuracy.

00:44:59 So there's just a lot of reasons.

00:45:01 It's a lot more comfortable to wear.

00:45:02 You wear rings anyway.

00:45:04 And when you're going to bed, you're not -- I have had a lot of watches that are gigantic

00:45:09 from Carmen, but in the middle of the night, I'll wake up and I'll rip it off because

00:45:14 it's uncomfortable.

00:45:14 So sleep tracking has gotten a lot of popularity in the last few years.

00:45:19 This is the ideal form factor for it.

00:45:21 So that's kind of why.

00:45:22 I agree with that.

00:45:23 I will say the thing that I've had trouble with with rings and the Aura in particular

00:45:28 is one that I would say every three months, I'm like, "I'm going to become an Aura

00:45:32 person again."

00:45:32 And I pull the one out of my drawer, I charge it, I put it on.

00:45:35 I like it for the step tracking.

00:45:36 I like it because the battery doesn't die all the time.

00:45:38 I'm like forever being driven crazy because my Apple Watch battery seems to always be

00:45:41 dying.

00:45:42 No matter what is happening, it's always dying.

00:45:44 And the Aura ring is like a sort of light tracker in a way that I really like.

00:45:48 I cannot type with that thing on comfortably.

00:45:51 Really?

00:45:51 And part of it is probably just that I'm not used to it yet in the same way that like

00:45:54 when I started wearing a wedding ring, it took me a while to get used to it.

00:45:57 Now I don't even notice it on my finger.

00:45:58 But like it's a pretty chunky thing.

00:46:01 I mean --

00:46:01 And it bangs around on the palm rest of my computer.

00:46:03 Like I grant that I'm not used to wearing chunky rings and lots of people are used to

00:46:07 wearing chunky rings, but it was harder for me to get used to having on my body than I

00:46:11 expected it to be actually.

00:46:12 Well, yeah, like if you're in fashion, you definitely have a statement ring, right?

00:46:16 This is not statement ring size, but it is chunky.

00:46:20 Like I have several rings on my finger right now and like the normal not smart rings are

00:46:25 much thinner.

00:46:26 It actually kind of looks funny when you --

00:46:29 It's like guess what the smart ring is?

00:46:30 I mean it's like you're wearing four rings and two of them look like brass knuckles.

00:46:33 Yeah, that's basically what it is.

00:46:36 And a lot of that is the tech.

00:46:38 Yeah.

00:46:38 There's just like what are you -- it's a miracle that they can make it this small.

00:46:41 It's actually a miracle that this particular version of the Oura ring is completely round.

00:46:46 That was a huge engineering challenge.

00:46:47 The little flat tire for a long time.

00:46:49 Yeah, the flat tire is where they put the battery because when you have a flexible battery,

00:46:52 it's very difficult to make it round.

00:46:54 So there's just all these like technical challenges that come with smart rings that make them

00:47:00 big because I'm like this is pretty good if you think about what a smart ring is.

00:47:04 And I always get our readers and some people in my DMs just like I'm not getting it until

00:47:10 it's as thin as a regular ring.

00:47:12 It's like okay, you'll be waiting for a while.

00:47:13 Yeah, see you in 2050.

00:47:14 Like you'll be waiting for a very long time.

00:47:16 So but then in that case, I understand why these things would exist, right?

00:47:20 Like the size of Oura's market makes sense to me.

00:47:24 There are people who want the things that it offers.

00:47:25 What I can't figure out is why somebody like Samsung would make this because especially

00:47:30 the thing we've learned over the last bunch of years is that like A, you're right, ecosystem

00:47:34 is important.

00:47:35 But B, the market even for a smartwatch is significantly smaller than the market for

00:47:40 a smartphone, at least right now.

00:47:42 And then to take away all the computer stuff, even on a smartwatch, and say, okay, this

00:47:48 thing is just basically a lightweight tracker.

00:47:51 It just feels like that.

00:47:52 That just seems like a thing that cannot possibly apply to as many people as a company like

00:47:56 Samsung is trying to reach.

00:47:58 But maybe I'm underestimating how many people want that thing.

00:48:01 So what I will say, and I think a lot of our readers who have Oura rings will kind of back

00:48:05 me up, is that it's not a good primary tracker.

00:48:08 It's a very good secondary tracker.

00:48:10 But having a very good secondary tracker necessitates that you have a primary tracker.

00:48:14 Right, you've already like, we're way down the funnel of people who care about this stuff

00:48:18 at that point.

00:48:19 But it is a thing where it's like, if I care about sleep tracking, which an increasing

00:48:24 number of people do, and especially if you're an athlete and you care about recovery tracking,

00:48:29 this is a very small subsect of people, but it is a very passionate subsect of people.

00:48:33 Then a ring that is something that you can have on all the time is not held to the same

00:48:39 battery constraints as a smartwatch.

00:48:42 Then it kind of becomes a nice secondary.

00:48:45 I know I'm crazy because I have four wearables on right now.

00:48:49 No, I think you're the average user.

00:48:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm totally the average user.

00:48:52 But basically, I will say that I definitely am like, oh, yeah, if I have an Oura ring,

00:48:58 and an Apple Watch, that is the perfect health tracking kind of combo.

00:49:02 But you have to care about health tracking, which I think the thing that makes wearables,

00:49:07 like this subsect of wearables, the hardest is that fitness and health is a very, very

00:49:13 hard habit to develop.

00:49:14 Well, and this is kind of where I've landed with smartwatches, right?

00:49:17 I think it's definitely true that the most useful thing the Apple Watch does for the

00:49:23 most people is the health and fitness stuff.

00:49:25 I totally buy that.

00:49:26 I still think that's only one slice of the pie of reasons to buy an Apple Watch.

00:49:31 There are lots of them.

00:49:32 I think Apple used to think the get notifications on your wrist slice was the biggest.

00:49:38 It's not.

00:49:38 The health and fitness one is clearly the biggest.

00:49:40 But it's still, I mean, I'm making up the numbers, but that's 40% of the thing.

00:49:44 That leaves 50 other things that comprise the other 60%.

00:49:47 As we get to these other things, we're just pulling all of that away.

00:49:52 So what I keep trying to figure out is, is Samsung going to try and figure out how to

00:49:57 put a microphone and speaker into the Galaxy Ring 2 so that I can talk to my assistant

00:50:04 through it?

00:50:05 Or are we just going to get to the point where this stuff matters enough to enough people

00:50:09 that it's a real business?

00:50:10 I think it's going to be probably the latter, just because my family's full of doctors.

00:50:16 My grandpa was like Mr. Doctor in our family.

00:50:19 He was the most esteemed one.

00:50:21 He would always tell us that your health is the most valuable thing you have.

00:50:25 If you don't have health, your life kind of is, it's not what it could be.

00:50:29 It's one of those things that I think the longer that we live, the more technology advances,

00:50:33 the more that we know about our health.

00:50:34 I think that's going to kind of impress upon people that I want to live longer.

00:50:39 I want to see my kids.

00:50:40 I want to be able to do things with them.

00:50:42 That's going to become more important to people.

00:50:44 The thing that really stymies that is that health is not built in spurts.

00:50:50 It's not in New Year's resolutions.

00:50:51 It's in tiny things that you do every day.

00:50:53 And that's very, very, very difficult for most people to make that behavioral change.

00:50:57 It's the number one thing that I think stands in the way of wearable adoption and battery life.

00:51:01 Those two things.

00:51:03 So, you know, it's just I really do think the health aspect is big there, but I don't

00:51:08 think that Samsung would be smart to put microphones into the Galaxy Ring.

00:51:12 I really don't.

00:51:13 I think the smartest thing it could do is to bundle it with the Galaxy Watch so that you're

00:51:18 not buying it separately, you're buying it for a discounted price.

00:51:21 And then you have the whole picture of the Samsung health experience.

00:51:26 And then you're just in their ecosystem.

00:51:28 I really think it's an ecosystem play where you get an accessory for your accessory to your phone.

00:51:33 And I think if they're smart, they'll do it that way where you're just like,

00:51:37 oh, are you going to upgrade to the Samsung Galaxy 7?

00:51:39 Free Galaxy Ring for you.

00:51:41 Right.

00:51:41 And then, you know, you do that at first and then people get on different upgrade cycles

00:51:46 and then they buy in and that's my insidious capitalism plan for it.

00:51:51 It tracks.

00:51:52 No, it does.

00:51:53 It does kind of make sense.

00:51:54 And it also gets you to the point where now you're literally wearing

00:51:57 something from that company 24 hours a day.

00:52:00 And I think it should be really scary for Aura.

00:52:03 Aura, unprompted, sent me a statement when the Galaxy Ring was unveiled.

00:52:07 Oh, that's never a good sign.

00:52:08 They're like, "We're not scared.

00:52:09 Everything's fine."

00:52:10 They said, "We're not scared.

00:52:11 We have hundreds of patents.

00:52:13 We are the leader.

00:52:14 This is validation in the space."

00:52:16 And I'm like, "Yes, but also you should be scared because you charge a $6 monthly subscription

00:52:22 on top of a $300 ring.

00:52:25 Samsung can go, "Oh, we don't need a subscription for you."

00:52:27 Right.

00:52:28 Yeah, here, have some rings.

00:52:29 Have some rings.

00:52:30 Have it with our watch that also doesn't come with rings.

00:52:33 We've also spent two years beefing up our sleep tracking features.

00:52:37 So, yeah.

00:52:39 So I think Aura's...

00:52:41 I don't think they have to worry now, but they should be a little concerned is what

00:52:46 I think.

00:52:46 Yeah.

00:52:47 Yeah, that seems right.

00:52:48 That has a lot of the vibes of when Slack took out that full-page ad, when Microsoft

00:52:53 Teams came out being like, "Everything's fine.

00:52:54 We think our product is terrific."

00:52:56 And that went super great for Slack.

00:52:58 Last thing, then we got to go.

00:52:59 Should I just give up on my idea and dream of the wearable computer as a thing?

00:53:05 Ever since the beginning of the Apple Watch, I have loved the thesis of the Apple Watch

00:53:11 originally, which was basically like, "We want to build a new, simpler, lower-touch,

00:53:16 more personal device for you to use instead of pulling out your phone all the time."

00:53:22 And I think if I were to get real galaxy-brained about all of this, it's like you come back

00:53:26 to all this AI stuff that's happening and the stuff we're doing with voice and with

00:53:29 transcription, and you can get to the point where like, "Okay, maybe actually talking

00:53:32 to my wrist is going to quickly become a thing I can do and it will be good."

00:53:37 And at the same time, all of these products are running away from that stuff and toward

00:53:41 health and fitness.

00:53:43 And so one of two things is either going to happen.

00:53:45 It's either going to come back around, or it's just, these are just going to be health

00:53:48 and fitness devices, and we're either going to have to invent something new, or the phone

00:53:52 is going to continue to be the computer.

00:53:54 Which one do you think it is?

00:53:55 I think in the short term, the latter, but in the long term, the former.

00:53:59 So you think we might come back around eventually?

00:54:00 I think we are going to come back around, and you can see it with AR glasses.

00:54:03 I just don't necessarily think it's going to be your wrist.

00:54:06 I think it's going to be your eyes.

00:54:07 So it's just-

00:54:09 Yeah, those Ray-Ban Meta glasses are like-

00:54:11 That's pretty wild.

00:54:12 You put them on and it's like, "Oh, I kind of get it now."

00:54:14 Yeah, yeah, I get it.

00:54:16 Once they figure out how to do actual AR and not mixed reality, it's going to be a lot.

00:54:21 But the thing is, is the point when you wear something on your body, that's health.

00:54:24 That requires the FDA to get involved.

00:54:27 We've been talking about smart contacts for a long time.

00:54:29 There's various prototypes in that.

00:54:31 But when you are shining light into your eye that way, that's a-

00:54:35 Are you going to burn your retinas off?

00:54:37 The whole thing, yeah.

00:54:37 We don't know, right?

00:54:38 We don't know.

00:54:39 That's why, that's my theory, is that why in the last versions of iOS and watchOS,

00:54:44 they included vision health for children.

00:54:46 Because children's vision health, if you mess up your health as a child,

00:54:50 you can't really get into a Vision Pro, can you?

00:54:52 Man, speaking of ruthless capitalism, we're going to save children's eyesight

00:54:56 so they can use our headsets.

00:54:58 But actually, I really do think that's it.

00:55:01 I really do think that's part of the thing because, you know,

00:55:04 smart glasses leave out a lot of people who don't have, like, you know, normal vision,

00:55:08 including myself with my terrible astigmatism.

00:55:11 But I really do think that we're going to go all the way around.

00:55:15 It's just that we're in the very baby ages of wearables.

00:55:18 It might feel like we've gotten really advanced, but we are super early on.

00:55:22 The tech is not there yet.

00:55:23 It's not miniature enough yet, as we saw with the Vision Pro.

00:55:26 It's here to sell you on a future, and that's what smartwatches are here.

00:55:30 The Ray-Ban Metaglasses, that's what they're here.

00:55:32 Like, the Oura Ring, these are all selling you on a future that hasn't arrived yet

00:55:35 because technologically it's not possible yet.

00:55:37 And like, are we going to get non-invasive blood glucose monitoring?

00:55:41 Someday.

00:55:42 But they've been working on it since 1975.

00:55:44 Like, I should do not.

00:55:46 They've been working on it since 1975.

00:55:48 It's going to take a long time.

00:55:50 There's a lot of advances that have happened in the background,

00:55:52 and I talked to all these vendors, and it's really cool what they're doing.

00:55:55 They've got to deal with the FDA clearance process,

00:55:57 and that will take anywhere between two to four years,

00:56:00 depending on how much money and testing capabilities they have,

00:56:02 and the mountain of paperwork that they want to do.

00:56:04 They have to do it in a medical facility.

00:56:06 They have to have the security protocols in place.

00:56:08 It's a lot of work.

00:56:10 So yeah, now wellness, future health.

00:56:14 That's kind of the trade-off that they're making.

00:56:16 Okay.

00:56:16 And then long future, David gets his wrist computer.

00:56:19 Long future, David gets his face computer, his wrist computer,

00:56:24 his finger computer, everything, all the computers.

00:56:26 You will be a computer.

00:56:27 This is all I've ever wanted, Vy.

00:56:29 Thank you.

00:56:29 All right, we got to go.

00:56:31 Vy, thank you as always.

00:56:32 All right, we got to take one more break,

00:56:36 and then we're going to get to the Vergecast hotline.

00:56:38 We'll be right back.

00:56:38 All right, we're back.

00:56:49 Let's get to the hotline.

00:56:50 As always, the number is 866-VERGE11,

00:56:52 and the email is vergecast@theverge.com.

00:56:55 We love all your questions.

00:56:56 We try to answer at least one on the show every week.

00:56:59 Please keep calling, keep emailing.

00:57:00 I love hearing from you.

00:57:01 This week, we have a question about the Vision Pro.

00:57:04 If you're tired of hearing about the Vision Pro and Apple

00:57:06 and headsets and the whole thing, I'm really sorry,

00:57:08 but it's what everyone keeps asking about.

00:57:10 This question comes from John.

00:57:11 Hello, Vergecast team.

00:57:14 I'm John in West Lafayette, Indiana.

00:57:17 Apple priced the first Vision Pro at $3,500.

00:57:21 Forgetting Apple's high profit margins for the moment,

00:57:24 what would the price need to be for your review to say,

00:57:27 "We don't yet know how much consumers will use this,

00:57:30 but the price is attractive."

00:57:32 $1,500, $2,000?

00:57:34 Optional follow-up question.

00:57:36 Today, Apple sells iPad models from $329 to $1099.

00:57:42 In two or three years, what will be the right price range

00:57:45 for two or three Apple Vision models?

00:57:48 Thanks, everyone.

00:57:48 Love the show.

00:57:50 Okay, I picked this question not because I have a crystal clear answer,

00:57:53 but largely because I really want to know what you all think.

00:57:57 As you've heard on this show, I have spent a lot of time

00:58:00 yelling about how expensive the Vision Pro is.

00:58:02 I think the phrase, all caps, $3,500 is going to be written

00:58:07 at the top of my obituary at this point.

00:58:09 But I think this is a really interesting and complicated question.

00:58:12 And before I give my answer, I do want to know what you think.

00:58:14 So call 866-VERGE11, vergecast@theverge.com.

00:58:18 Tell me what price feels like the tipping point where this goes from

00:58:23 sort of neat thing that exists but doesn't make sense for most people

00:58:27 to thing you would consider buying for real and telling other people to buy.

00:58:32 And if you already bought a Vision Pro, I'm curious how much more you would pay.

00:58:35 So think about that in both directions and let me know.

00:58:38 I have two answers.

00:58:39 I think the consumer price to make regular people buy this thing in huge numbers is $999.

00:58:47 I think we're a long way away from that.

00:58:49 But I think when you can get a $1,000 version of this that is basically a very good iPad,

00:58:54 it's a good entertainment device, it's a thing you don't have to use all the time

00:58:58 to feel like you got your money's worth, that's a nice price for that.

00:59:01 It's right in that high-end iPad range.

00:59:04 It's what you'd pay for a really good computer monitor.

00:59:08 It's about the price of a MacBook Air.

00:59:10 It just feels like that is kind of the top line.

00:59:13 Buy this device.

00:59:15 It'll be cool and fun.

00:59:16 You'll love it.

00:59:16 In my dreams, we're more in like the $599, $699 kind of game console price.

00:59:23 But I think Apple is Apple and at $999, this thing would do just as well.

00:59:27 But also at $1999, $1,999, I think the Vision Pro as it exists now becomes an order of magnitude

00:59:37 more compelling.

00:59:38 At that point, you're in nice MacBook Pro range and it's very much still a pro device for pro

00:59:45 people who want to use it for pro things.

00:59:48 But even still, it becomes hugely more palatable.

00:59:51 I mean, think of all the people who spent $1,600 on a studio display or are happy to

00:59:57 upgrade their own PC for $1,000 just to get a little more performance and a little more

01:00:03 memory and all that kind of stuff.

01:00:04 Those are the sorts of people who I think a $2,000 price tag feels right.

01:00:09 This is a great television.

01:00:11 Like you could honestly at $2,000 say, "This is the best TV.

01:00:14 It's cool to wear.

01:00:16 You'll love it, but it's a television and it'll still be compelling to a lot of people

01:00:19 at $2,000.

01:00:20 $3,500, you're just out of that range, at least for me.

01:00:23 And I would guess that long term, based on what I've seen so far and the way people are

01:00:28 talking about it and the way even Apple talks about the Vision Pro, I think this thing will

01:00:32 end up covering that gamut.

01:00:34 I think this lands kind of in MacBook range where you can spend $1,000 for the cheapest

01:00:40 one and I think the cheapest one ends up basically just being a screen with apps.

01:00:44 It's an iPad on your face in a very real way.

01:00:47 I think for $1,000, that's going to be compelling to a lot of people.

01:00:50 Over and over, the thing that I'm hearing is that people like this most as an entertainment

01:00:54 device.

01:00:55 It's a way to sit on the couch or lie in bed and watch something.

01:00:58 That's what people buy an iPad for.

01:01:00 And I think you can get to a point where if you're Apple and you can sell basically an

01:01:05 iPad, but it's cooler to use, you don't have to hold it in your hands, which is actually

01:01:11 valuable for a lot of things.

01:01:12 And it has all this kind of gaming and productivity upside.

01:01:15 I think you can sell the base thing for $1,000 and then for more stuff, more power, more

01:01:20 productivity tools, more ability to like do cool stuff.

01:01:24 I don't know what they would add into these other things other than just better specs.

01:01:28 That's how you get up to two grand.

01:01:30 So that's my theory is that this thing wants to land basically on the whole spectrum between

01:01:34 one and $2,000.

01:01:36 And when it gets there, that becomes pretty powerful.

01:01:39 I think it's going to take a while to get there.

01:01:40 I don't think Apple is charging $3,500 for this because it is like a massively greedy

01:01:45 company.

01:01:46 I think this is a very, very, very, very expensive thing to make.

01:01:49 And it's going to take a long time before they can sell it to you for one or even $2,000.

01:01:54 But when they do, I will stop yelling about how expensive it is.

01:01:57 And I'm very much looking forward to that day.

01:01:59 But again, tell me what you think.

01:02:00 Email us, vergecast@theverge.com, call the hotline 866-VERGE-11.

01:02:05 I want to know how you feel about the Vision Pro price.

01:02:07 Would you have paid more than you did?

01:02:09 Are you waiting for it to be a certain price?

01:02:11 Are you like, "David, you're insane.

01:02:12 I'm only buying this thing if it's 99 bucks."

01:02:14 Tell me everything.

01:02:15 I desperately want to know.

01:02:16 Hit us up.

01:02:17 All right, that is it for The Verge Cast today.

01:02:19 Thank you to everybody who was on the show.

01:02:21 And as always, thank you so much for listening.

01:02:23 There's lots more from our conversation at theverge.com.

01:02:26 We have now posts on the site with all of our show notes for every episode.

01:02:31 So if you want to know more about everything that we did, go check it out.

01:02:34 Also, like I mentioned at the top, we are now on The Verge's YouTube channel

01:02:38 with all of our full episodes.

01:02:39 So go like, subscribe, smash all the buttons,

01:02:42 say mean things about us in the comments.

01:02:44 Hit us up.

01:02:44 We love hearing from you.

01:02:46 This show is produced by Andrew Marino, Liam James, and Will Poore.

01:02:49 The Verge Cast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

01:02:52 Neal, I, Alex, and I will be back on Friday to talk about

01:02:55 all of the Super Bowl streaming mishaps,

01:02:57 more headsets, trillion-dollar AI ideas, and lots more.

01:03:01 We'll see you then.

01:03:02 Rock and roll.

Passkeys might really kill passwords | The Vergecast

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