Today on the flagship podcast of sneaky gaming strategies: Verge producer Will Poor reports on a right-to-repair bill in Oregon and what's next in the right-to-repair movement. Tom Warren breaks down the news from Microsoft’s gaming chief about Xbox games coming to PS5 and next-gen hardware. David Pierce and Alex Cranz answer a question from The Vergecast Hotline about the crackdown on password sharing for streaming services.
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00:00:00 Welcome to the Verge cast the flagship podcast of sneaky gaming strategies
00:00:03 I'm your friend David Pierce and I am sitting in my basement doing Legos
00:00:07 Which is a sentence I have not been able to say for a long time and I'm very excited to say
00:00:11 So Liam James our producer got me this Polaroid one-step Lego thing for Christmas this past year
00:00:17 Which is part of I'm sure you've seen this but Lego doing all the stuff with old
00:00:21 Technology and everything from the set of the office to the McLaren Formula one car
00:00:27 Taking all of that stuff putting it into Lego form and making it available for adults
00:00:32 It's all I think like ridiculously expensive to the point where I have not been able to talk myself into actually buying one of these things
00:00:38 For myself, but I've realized it makes an awesome gift and I hope more people give me these cool Lego sets as a gift
00:00:44 So I'm gonna spend some time putting this thing together. I realized today I've been kind of intimidated by it. It's let's see. It's
00:00:51 516 pieces and it is 18 and up and you would think I would be able to handle that
00:00:56 But I feel like I'm rusty with Legos
00:00:58 It's been a while and the idea of actually sitting here and putting this thing together is both very fun and kind of intimidating
00:01:04 But I have an afternoon. I have shows to catch up on it's gonna be awesome
00:01:07 I'm very excited and pretty soon you are going to see this thing in a background when we record the verge cast
00:01:12 I promise anyway, we have an awesome show coming up for you today. We're gonna do two things first
00:01:17 We're gonna talk to will poor who has been kind of immersing himself in the world of right to repair
00:01:22 It's a really interesting time in the world of right to repair
00:01:25 There have been big bills that have gone through there's some real momentum for the idea that you should be able to repair your own gadgets
00:01:30 But there's still a lot of work to do and it's not clear that all of the pieces are actually gonna start to come together
00:01:37 Quickly in a way that makes this stuff really work the way that it seems like it ought to
00:01:40 So will has been talking to tons of people he's gonna come and give us kind of his first report on what he's learned so
00:01:46 Far then we're gonna talk to Tom Warren about Microsoft's news from last week
00:01:50 so we talked about this a little on Friday's show, but
00:01:52 Microsoft made what seems like a relatively small set of gaming announcements last week
00:01:58 That kind of hide this huge vision
00:02:01 For the future of gaming and the way that things are going to change in the gaming industry in a really big way over the next
00:02:07 Two years Microsoft might be wrong. It might be early. It might be late
00:02:11 But it is not
00:02:13 Betting as small as it would have you think Tom knows everything about what's going on here
00:02:17 And he's gonna help us figure out what the real story of Microsoft and Xbox and gaming really is
00:02:23 All that is coming up in just a sec
00:02:24 But now I get to go do the thing that is my favorite with the Lego set where you open it up and just dump
00:02:29 It on the ground and kind of see what happens
00:02:31 This is where I inevitably like lose six pieces that turn out to be very frustrating for hours
00:02:34 But you just it's like the beginning of a puzzle, right?
00:02:37 You pour it out you kind of take stock and you see what you have
00:02:41 This is either gonna take me an hour or six months and you'll never hear me again
00:02:45 So wish me luck. This is the verge cast. Let's go
00:02:48 Welcome back. So last year was a big year for the right to repair movement. There were three major laws
00:02:56 We had one in New York, Minnesota and California
00:02:58 All of which passed and all of which said a very basic thing to electronics makers that you have to let other people
00:03:05 Repair the products you make that means giving independent repair shops or even individual people
00:03:11 access to the same parts and tools and information that you the manufacturer give your own repair shops or
00:03:17 To use just one example that I'm confident
00:03:20 We're going to refer to 1 million times throughout this story
00:03:22 If your iPhone breaks the Apple Store shouldn't be the only place equipped and allowed to fix it
00:03:28 Last year in the midst of all this we had Kyle Weans the CEO of I fix it on the show to talk about just how
00:03:34 Big a deal the California law was in particular with the California law
00:03:38 We're up to 20% of the US population has passed the right to repair law at the time
00:03:43 Apple had just signed on to support that law and soon after pledged to abide by it nationally
00:03:48 So on paper, this was a big victory lap moment for all of the right to repair people, but now it's 2024
00:03:54 Which is the year that these laws are actually supposed to go into effect and we wanted to know what that means
00:04:00 What's actually changing out there in the world of electronics repairs?
00:04:03 Like if your iPhone breaks this year, are you better off than if your iPhone broke last year?
00:04:08 Our producer will poor has been looking into that question for a while and he claims he has answers of which I am always suspicious
00:04:14 Will poor welcome to the verge cast. Hello. Thank you. Do you have answers? I do I have a lot of answers
00:04:21 I talked to a lot of people to try to understand what's going on here. I talked to repair shop owners
00:04:25 activists lawmakers and big companies like Apple and Google and
00:04:30 You know shocker the answer really depends on who you talk to
00:04:33 The advocates for these laws the folks who have spent years trying to establish the idea of repair as a right. They're pretty jazzed
00:04:41 Yeah, it was an absolutely monster year for right to repair. That's Nathan Proctor
00:04:46 He runs the right to repair campaign for the public interest research group
00:04:49 He said last year started with a disappointment that big New York bill got watered down by the governor at the 11th hour
00:04:56 I think we just went all out last year
00:04:58 We really put everything we had into it and then Minnesota passed the broadest right to repair bill
00:05:05 We've seen yet even broader than when New York did with fewer loopholes
00:05:08 Then Colorado passed an excellent farmer rights repair bill, which was the first of the nation on that
00:05:15 That was an extremely difficult fight. Hang on. Did he just say farmers? Are we talking about farmers?
00:05:19 We are we absolutely are right to repair is this huge deal in agriculture. Also, it's not just consumer electronics
00:05:26 That's because John Deere and a whole bunch of other companies have gotten super super controlling about who can repair their tractors
00:05:34 John Deere is like the Apple of the tractors, right?
00:05:36 I'm remembering this now that they're like super mad about anybody who wants to repair their tractor. They are the leader in this space
00:05:42 They're a huge problem for farmers and it's a huge deal for agriculture because farmers livelihoods depend on the so, you know
00:05:50 It's not like most of our phones where it's this is an annoyance, but it's not make or break
00:05:55 So this kind of thing comes up in sort of higher stakes situations like agriculture
00:05:59 Wheelchairs is another place where this debate is happening other kinds of medical equipment
00:06:05 So it's a lot broader than just consumer electronics
00:06:07 Anyway, here's the rest of the Nathan quote and then California just absolutely
00:06:12 Overwhelmingly passed and you know and people know or might know that Apple endorsed that bill
00:06:18 Which I think is just a sign of is how much momentum we had
00:06:22 That Apple endorsement was notable because for years it was the go-to example of a big powerful company
00:06:29 Lobbying super hard against repair laws. So the endorsement was evidence of industry warming up to independent repair
00:06:37 Which is just not how things felt for a long time in all the years that we've been on rights repair
00:06:43 You know, we've heard just
00:06:46 Absolute throw spaghetti at the wall kind of arguments against it. The big categories are
00:06:52 safety security
00:06:54 privacy
00:06:55 liability intellectual property
00:06:56 I remember vividly when a hands lobbyist that's the Association of home appliance manufacturers
00:07:04 Claimed that if people were able to fix their own dryers like, you know
00:07:09 clothes dryers that you know
00:07:10 They have a latch and the door and what if the door latch came undone?
00:07:14 Because you didn't do the repair right and then your child put their arm in there and got it ripped off by your dryer
00:07:20 So right to repair means
00:07:22 Dismembering children. So this is wild this one a whole way
00:07:26 I did not expect but this makes me think of the thing you always heard from
00:07:29 Apple and others about like if you try to take your phone apart, you're gonna blow up the battery and burn your house down, right?
00:07:34 That's kind of the consumer electronics version of this and I think maybe equally
00:07:38 Realistic as someone who has blown up a battery trying to take my phone apart in the past it happened
00:07:43 But yeah
00:07:44 I mean
00:07:45 This is how far back this the safety argument against right to repair goes and this is a drum that that all kinds of manufacturers
00:07:52 Have been beating for a really long time
00:07:54 But they're starting to if not give up on the safety argument at least roll it back a little it sounds like yes
00:08:01 Manufacturers are giving up on some arguments that just have not panned out for them in the past
00:08:08 You know, the times are changing Apple in particular has started to publish repair manuals on its website
00:08:14 It has this self-service repair program
00:08:17 Which the verge and lots of other people have pointed out feels a lot like malicious compliance because it's super expensive and complicated
00:08:24 But in general Apple is playing ball with these new laws
00:08:28 Apple announces more DIY options in December, you know, these companies are getting ready for it
00:08:34 You know, so I think that like it's clear that to some degree that there will be compliance like they're planning for it
00:08:39 They think that's great. I'm glad that they're not all gonna fight. Okay, so this all lines up with
00:08:45 Roughly where we were with Kyle a few months ago
00:08:48 We have some laws not everything is perfect
00:08:51 But the people who have been fighting this for a long time and like you said they've been fighting for this for a long time
00:08:56 Are pretty happy, but I don't know you're setting this all up in such a way that it makes me think there
00:09:01 There are those who should be psyched who are not psyched. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the other shoe-dropping
00:09:06 I really wanted to talk to repair shop owners about this because they're the people that the
00:09:12 Advocates for these laws say that they're written for and I did and truthfully they're not expecting a lot of material improvement here
00:09:20 Hmm one owner I talked with was Jessa Jones who runs a repair and data recovery shop in Western, New York
00:09:26 And she echoed pretty much every other shop owner. I talked to
00:09:30 Basically, she thinks the laws are well intentioned, but they don't address some really critical things
00:09:36 For example, there is this very basic practice that any repair shop should have at their disposal
00:09:42 I would like to be able to have a filing cabinet where I put any
00:09:46 Phone that is here for parts or pieces or donated or old or something
00:09:51 I buy I want to be able to put it in a file cabinet where at any point in time
00:09:56 here comes a matching phone model that I can go to my file cabinet junkyard of parts and I can take out a
00:10:03 perfectly fine working
00:10:05 Let's say true depth camera out of this phone and install it in that phone and I can take too bad and make one good
00:10:13 But she can't do that with iPhones take the true depth camera. That's the iPhone's front-facing camera system
00:10:19 She can order a new one direct from Apple
00:10:22 It's about 185 bucks for an iPhone 15 making that part available technically puts Apple in compliance with the current repair laws
00:10:29 But if she opened up her file cabinet junkyard and swapped in a working camera from a dead iPhone
00:10:35 Face ID might just stop working
00:10:38 That's because the motherboards of modern iPhones keep track of some other parts within the phone
00:10:43 And if you swap in an aftermarket part or even a genuine Apple part that Apple didn't sell you your phone might start acting up
00:10:52 If I replace your battery with a quality aftermarket battery
00:10:56 You can no longer go into your settings and see your battery health. You lost a function. That's terrible
00:11:04 That's wrong. And that's what's happening now. So let me just real quick make sure I understand what's going on here
00:11:09 yeah, it seems like what you're saying is if I have a
00:11:13 Perfectly good iPhone where most of the parts are still working and then I have another perfectly good
00:11:19 iPhone where most of the parts are still working and I take one perfectly good part out of one iPhone and put it in the
00:11:24 Other there's a pretty good chance. It just won't work
00:11:27 Yeah, and this is what's so like mysterious and galling about Apple products specifically Apple products full of genuine Apple components
00:11:35 Do not play nicely with one another people have done this famous screen swap test where they'll take two modern iPhones
00:11:41 Swap the screens so two working phones two working screens and all of a sudden those screens won't work properly anymore weird
00:11:49 It's super weird and it's because of this process of software locking components to the motherboard
00:11:54 It's called parts pairing and it makes repairing iPhones a minefield
00:11:58 I fix it has been keeping really careful track of which parts cause which problems when replaced some parts lose functionality
00:12:05 others trigger these warning messages that you can't dismiss and
00:12:09 There's no telling how the next iPhone is gonna behave or even which parts could break retroactively down the road
00:12:15 You get into this really difficult and seemingly pointless
00:12:20 Sea of problems where you don't know
00:12:23 What is just serialized serial numbers paired to your logic board and you have to harvest it from your device?
00:12:31 Versus which ones of the guts can you use that came in the phone you bought on eBay?
00:12:36 So it's very challenging the skeptical part of my brain here says that this is purely
00:12:42 Malicious on Apple's part that Apple has a big repair business that it has lots of reasons to uphold and this is one
00:12:48 basically impenetrable way to win that fight but just for the sake of
00:12:53 Satiating the other part of my brain that doesn't believe everything is a conspiracy theory designed to ruin customers
00:12:58 What is the good reason for parts pairing? Is there a theoretically good reason for parts pairing? Sure
00:13:05 I mean Apple and other manufacturers will tell you that there are lots of reasons why at minimum
00:13:10 It's helpful to assign like a digital serial number to each specific part
00:13:15 That's a super basic thing that helps them keep track of inventory and all kinds of stuff
00:13:19 Okay
00:13:19 And even more than that there are these kind of wonky
00:13:23 Calibration related reasons that make it helpful for your phone to know which specific part
00:13:28 It's talking to like which one came off the manufacturing line
00:13:32 So there's a lot of sort of nitty-gritty stuff that is completely invisible to the end user and completely benign
00:13:37 But it's also just way too easy for a manufacturer to do really frustrating really visible things with this technology, too
00:13:44 And in the case of iPhones, it really does seem designed to kind of nudge you towards Apple's parts
00:13:50 Towards Apple's repair shops towards that very polished Apple experience
00:13:55 I think that Apple is best thought of as the kind of mom that cuts your steak when you're 30
00:14:01 Yeah, it's just like let me let me help you with that. Let me help you with that in their heart of hearts
00:14:06 They truly just don't want for you to have to live the sad life of someone who has an iPhone with a cracked
00:14:14 screen or a cracked rear camera glass or
00:14:17 Maybe the the waterproofing isn't as tight as it used to be because you replace the battery with some shop, you know
00:14:25 They don't want for you to have the hint of any kind of negative experience. They want to cut that stake for you
00:14:32 It's an amazing analogy because a I kind of do want that in my life, right?
00:14:38 And you can see how right there are there are upsides to having someone cut my steak for me
00:14:43 It does make me feel better
00:14:45 But also it can be both well-intentioned and problematic all at the same time, right?
00:14:50 Like I think there's a cognitive dissonance of all of this that is has always been hard for me to wrap my head around
00:14:55 But that's a pretty good analogy for it totally and even if you remove
00:14:59 Apple's like secret private heart intention out of it
00:15:03 It is just a practice that ensures a really clean experience and then occasionally is super super frustrating
00:15:10 And this is increasingly common. We've talked a bunch about Apple at this point. I think Apple is the most
00:15:16 Obvious just because it's sort of clear how it works
00:15:19 Apple has Apple stores and the genius bar and the whole repair process is visible to people in the way that it's not for most
00:15:24 other companies and products but if I'm not mistaken parts pairing is kind of everywhere right like I have this vague memory of
00:15:31 People being mad about the Xbox disc drive being a separate thing but paired to the Xbox somehow in some similar way
00:15:39 Yes, and Playstations do it too TVs very commonly have certain paired parts
00:15:45 We talked about John Deere tractors earlier
00:15:47 It is a tough thing to keep track of because it's not something that manufacturers advertise
00:15:53 It's sort of down to the repair community and advocates to kind of ferret this stuff out
00:15:57 Generation by generation of these products, so it's a tricky thing to track but it it is out there
00:16:04 But also everyone I talked to reiterated over and over again that Apple is far and away the leader in this space
00:16:11 They are just everyone is looking to them for innovation in how to do frustrating parts pairing type things
00:16:18 And you know, the other thing is that Apple sold 230 million iPhones last year
00:16:23 So it's super ubiquitous practice for that reason alone
00:16:27 Especially in the US like it's it's easy to forget this around the world because the iPhone is not so dominant elsewhere
00:16:32 But in the US there is a one-in-two chance that if you own a phone
00:16:35 It's an iPhone totally and I guess that is true like as Apple goes so goes so many industries at this point
00:16:42 I guess including the repair industry
00:16:44 Totally and and so if you talk to any repair shop in the US
00:16:48 That's like that iPhone dominance is is the thing that keeps them up at night for them the right to repair story
00:16:55 Often just feels like the Apple parts pairing story
00:16:58 Yeah, and there's a long history of Apple policies dictating everybody else's especially in the US on this
00:17:04 Did you talk to Apple about any of this by the way?
00:17:07 Apple is like theoretically in support of all this did they talk to you?
00:17:09 Not really. I did reach someone from their comms team, but they didn't want to talk to me on the record about any of it
00:17:15 I think anyone listening to the verge cast knows how we all feel about that over time
00:17:19 So let's go back to Jess up for a minute our repair shop owner. What does she want?
00:17:25 What do people who own these shops want to see happen? Like what is a victory for them look like in this space right now?
00:17:31 Yeah. Well, I asked Jess that exact question. I would like to see the
00:17:38 consumption of
00:17:40 aftermarket technology
00:17:42 Being accepted by the phone, you know a lot of times like the batteries
00:17:46 They are better than the ones that you would get in the phone. They have a little bit of a better capacity
00:17:51 They last longer. They're really robust by now
00:17:53 This these have been out for a long time and I don't think that it's the right message to send that it's inherently
00:18:01 untrustworthy
00:18:03 Untoward or shameful to put an aftermarket part in instead of a branded part
00:18:07 And as frustrating as these legal battles have been as she's watched them. She still sees promise in that route
00:18:14 I do like seeing these bills that have been passed and I do think that parts pairing is a really
00:18:20 Probably the most important part of the story
00:18:23 Okay, so we have all these new rights repair laws
00:18:27 But it seems like most of them don't address parts pairing at all
00:18:31 And it increasingly sounds like parts pairing is the most important part of this story
00:18:36 So, where are we actually at here? Well, we're at pass more laws. Basically, let's get some more loss
00:18:42 Yeah, always more laws and that might happen this year
00:18:46 Good afternoon and welcome to the Senate Energy and Environment Committee and open up a public hearing on
00:18:53 Senate bill
00:18:55 1596 and while
00:18:57 So right now Oregon is considering a repair bill that targets parts pairing way more directly than any of those existing laws
00:19:06 I've been following the public hearings in Oregon and I talked to one of the bills chief sponsors senator Janine Salmon
00:19:13 I asked her, you know what?
00:19:14 It's like to get a bill like this one over the finish line
00:19:17 And the first thing she pointed out is that this is the fourth attempt for a repair law in her state
00:19:22 The first time it was a very broad net
00:19:25 It encompassed a lot of product and then when I got involved the scope was narrowed and it became the consumer items the cell phones
00:19:32 The laptops and such and it did not even move out of the house
00:19:37 The third time was last year. It did move out of Senate Energy and Environment
00:19:41 there was a delay in our floor session because there was six weeks where there was a pause due to
00:19:48 Senate walkout so it died and then
00:19:51 California then passed their bill and then we started working right after the session to really fine-tune and look at Oregon's
00:19:58 Policy what we would be bringing forward
00:20:00 So it's a grind but the fourth law has been introduced with parts pairing language intact
00:20:06 I know that the advocates feel very strongly about that
00:20:10 That was something that was either never introduced in other bills or was amended out or compromised out
00:20:17 Okay, but it's in there this time, right? What does it say exactly?
00:20:21 It says that manufacturers like Apple can't use parts pairing to interfere in a repair
00:20:27 They can't reduce the functionality or performance of a product and they can't display
00:20:31 Misleading alerts or warnings about replacement parts. I'm guessing Apple is not psyched about that specific language
00:20:39 Apple has asked us to remove it, but I strongly believe that it's a consumer loss to do so
00:20:45 Can you I would love to hear anything you can tell me about your conversation with Apple directly or indirectly
00:20:50 You know, I've engaged with with Apple many times
00:20:53 I met with the Apple lobbyist and we kind of went over like hey
00:20:57 These are the issues that we see could potentially be changed if they were introduced in, California
00:21:03 So I took all of that in the second meeting. I was told to come alone. What that paints a picture in of itself
00:21:10 Yeah, that's amazing. Some truly cloak-and-dagger politicking. Yeah, it's ridiculous
00:21:16 so to their credit Apple has gotten a little less cloak-and-dagger about all of it a
00:21:22 Spokesman did finally testify publicly at a hearing a couple weeks ago
00:21:26 Though he was basically just there to say please leave parts pairing out of this
00:21:31 I'd like to begin by saying that Apple agrees with the vast majority of Senate bill 1596
00:21:36 however
00:21:37 It is our belief that the bill's current language around parts pairing will undermine the security safety and privacy of
00:21:43 Oregonians by forcing device manufacturers to allow the use of parts of unknown origin and consumer devices
00:21:49 So the line here is basically just that aftermarket parts are a crapshoot. They could be good. They could be shoddy
00:21:54 They could be dangerous parts pairing is Apple's way of steering customers away from questionable components like explodey batteries
00:22:02 They're super worried about security features like touch ID components
00:22:06 Apple could be required to allow third-party biometric sensors to work in our devices without any form of authentication
00:22:12 Which could lead to unauthorized access to an individual's personal data
00:22:16 So this is a slightly different take than then we've been talking about with some of the parts pairing stuff
00:22:20 Which is I think the I have a working Apple thing and I want to put it in another working Apple thing is
00:22:27 One version of parts pairing but I have to say I find this slightly more
00:22:31 Credible the idea that you shouldn't just buy any battery you find on Amazon
00:22:36 And I mean you and I have both bought crappy things on Amazon
00:22:39 Remember all those hoverboards that exploded like maybe protecting people from themselves is not a crazy idea
00:22:45 What do you do you buy that argument? It's funny. We're coming back around to the safety argument. Yeah, right kids in dryers
00:22:52 Yeah
00:22:54 But it's you're right that batteries are an easy punching bag because they fail and sometimes they fail
00:23:00 Catastrophically so as a DIY repair person
00:23:04 You absolutely should do your homework and find a trusted supplier of an aftermarket battery
00:23:09 Or you should go to a trusted repair shop as for the kind of rogue fingerprint sensor that can hack your phone
00:23:17 I talked to a security expert and they said it was possible but really far-fetched. It sounds scary
00:23:24 It's a good like visceral example. Yeah, I mean it falls really neatly into the category of
00:23:29 What advocates refer to derisively as FUD or fear uncertainty and doubt?
00:23:36 Which is just a very diffuse tactic for people who want to scare you away from a thing
00:23:41 It kind of does go back to the issue though of just finding a good repair shop and a good aftermarket supplier
00:23:47 Yes
00:23:48 That's not gonna sell you a super sketchy part and that is just a leap that Apple doesn't want
00:23:52 Customers to have to make basically so that's Apple's take on the Oregon bill
00:23:58 But the other notable thing about this bill in particular is Google used it as an opportunity to come out fully in support of right-to-repair
00:24:06 Including all of the parts pairing stuff in this Oregon bill. Hmm, and they're basically using this bill to loudly say yes
00:24:13 You can have a hardware business without controlling what goes into that hardware after the fact
00:24:18 I can't speak as well that because that's simply something that we do not do
00:24:22 That is Google's head of consumer hardware Steven nickel on a call with me last week. You can have that quality
00:24:28 You can have that safety with your repairs processes that we implement and not be concerned about it, right?
00:24:34 We work with really good repair providers. We also make the process as simple as possible
00:24:38 So we're not as concerned
00:24:40 So obviously Steven knows that taking this more relaxed approach means that more aftermarket parts are gonna find their way into Google products
00:24:48 But here again, he just didn't project any worry about it
00:24:52 We want you to have that best experience and so, you know, we believe that best experience means authorized parts
00:24:59 We know that other parts are out there third-party parts for various aspects, right?
00:25:03 But continually we believe if we put out this experience and we make authorized parts available accessible and affordable
00:25:10 You're gonna select those right?
00:25:12 So that is basically where things stand at the moment
00:25:16 Google and Apple both support the basic concepts in these repair bills and now they are duking it out with lawmakers over
00:25:24 Specifics like parts pairing which is not super satisfying for shop owners like Jessa. It's slow-moving. It's precarious
00:25:32 but
00:25:33 Everyone involved is starting to reach the marrow of this debate and along the way senator
00:25:38 Salman is noticing that same shift that Nathan Proctor and other advocates are seeing in the industry this really slow
00:25:45 But steady realization that opposing repair laws just isn't a good look
00:25:51 You know having folks that have been at the table, but are now neutral having Amazon neutral having Intel neutral
00:25:59 Microsoft OB I which is the organ business and industry which has been in opposition is now neutral
00:26:05 So this policy is coming and I'm really excited to be one of the ones to bring that forward
00:26:10 Gotcha. So to be clear getting to neutral is the win because all those groups were in opposition. Yeah, it's an absolute win
00:26:17 This goes back to something Kyle said to us last year
00:26:20 which is basically that the big shift was making it very hard for someone to
00:26:26 Incredibly loudly be against right to repair and it does feel like that has shifted that we've gone from
00:26:31 Sort of a reasonable people can disagree way of thinking about this stuff to right to repair is is the right idea?
00:26:38 And we can argue about the details of it
00:26:40 But this is clearly how it should work and I think at this point that particular battle does seem like it has been won
00:26:46 It absolutely has and everyone I talked to said the same thing that ten years ago
00:26:52 It was perfectly acceptable for a manufacturer to say
00:26:55 No, we know best we own this entire process. This is how we operate. There was no pressure to
00:27:03 Even give lip service to this idea and if nothing else there is now a lot of pressure to give lip service to this idea
00:27:10 To at least pretend to care now
00:27:13 Yeah
00:27:13 and then and now it's the whole battle is going from pretending to care to if not actually
00:27:19 Caring being forced to participate in ways that are really meaningful
00:27:23 Right and figuring out how all of this is actually supposed to play out in the real world
00:27:29 We're still at the phase of if my phone breaks where am I supposed to go?
00:27:33 And what am I supposed to do? But that's a much more interesting next phase
00:27:36 I think then am I allowed to fix my own phone? Yes
00:27:39 It also seems like that is leading us to the next question
00:27:43 which is basically like how is all of this supposed to work in the real world because I'm also
00:27:47 Increasingly aware of the fact that everything we own is technology and everything we own breaks in new spectacular ways
00:27:53 And so we're gonna need this big vibrant repair ecosystem and we figured out like very little of it yet
00:28:00 But at least we can get to the work of figuring out how it's all supposed to work as opposed to
00:28:04 Figuring out whether we're allowed to do it, right? Absolutely. And it's a very good point that like as
00:28:09 Smartphones go today so could go a lot of different things in the future
00:28:14 Yeah, so I wanted one last perspective on this which is the zoom all the way out
00:28:19 Why is this gonna matter to everyone in the future perspective?
00:28:22 Mm-hmm, so I called up someone who thinks a lot about how to keep all of this technology working for us
00:28:28 My name is Stacey Higginbotham. I am a policy fellow at consumer reports
00:28:32 Stacey spent years reporting on the Internet of Things
00:28:35 So when she looks at a technology like parts pairing she sees trouble ahead for a lot more than cell phones
00:28:41 We're adding software to a lot more products that historically haven't had software in them
00:28:47 A good example would be your home appliances
00:28:50 Your current home appliances may not have like a Wi-Fi chip in them and they may not have a lot of software that allows them
00:28:56 To do cool features
00:28:57 But your next one probably will those companies are learning from what Apple's doing and they're going to be implementing
00:29:03 Similar sorts of software pairing techniques to make these devices
00:29:08 less repairable by third parties, but also just less something that the consumer themselves has
00:29:14 Ownership of if that makes sense and that's the big risk here
00:29:17 I think with software pairing is that it's not gonna stop with your phones
00:29:21 It's gonna go to everything because as we connect our devices to the Internet they get not just radios
00:29:27 They get software and cool features and you're gonna lose control over a lot of that going forward
00:29:34 Okay, so you've just brought up the like big huge galaxy brain size question behind all of this
00:29:40 which is do we actually own the stuff that we buy and like we cannot get into that now because
00:29:47 Dear God the things that will do to me and this episode
00:29:50 But that does feel like this question, right?
00:29:53 All of this boils down to like is my iPhone my car my dishwasher
00:29:58 Like is that mine to do with as I please or am I essentially operating something under someone else's purview?
00:30:05 Exactly and iPhones are just far enough out ahead of all of this that it is easy to look at them and start to go
00:30:12 Like oh, what if the whole world worked like that?
00:30:15 And so that's what we're doing right now with consumer electronics like iPhones
00:30:19 And it's what a lot of this right to repair movement really boils down to in the end
00:30:25 Okay, so someday very soon you're gonna come back here and we're just gonna get deep in our feelings about ownership
00:30:29 And I'm gonna yell about Kindle books getting removed from Kindle's and it's gonna be a whole thing
00:30:33 Yep, but for now you mentioned more laws. We're gonna cover right to repair a lot this year
00:30:38 I actually think this is like one of the big sort of
00:30:40 Trundling along in the background stories in this industry and you're deep in it now
00:30:45 You're gonna keep covering it for us, but set the stage for the rest of the year for us a little bit
00:30:49 What is 2024 gonna look like in this space?
00:30:52 Well, we're gonna have to see it's really hard to predict what happens with all of these different bills
00:30:57 So I'm gonna be following what's going on in Oregon that bill that we talked about just passed out of committee
00:31:02 It's headed for the full Senate in Oregon right now
00:31:05 So we'll see what kind of legs lucky number four in Oregon looks like I'll keep track of other state bills
00:31:12 and I want to just keep talking to repair shop owners and DIY folks because
00:31:16 Parts pairing is really important for them
00:31:18 But there's a ton of other stuff that they're grappling with every day that is very closely connected to the right to repair
00:31:24 That has nothing to do with anything that regulators are trying to tackle right now
00:31:29 So there's just a lot more going on here
00:31:32 and as you say
00:31:33 I think this year is gonna be a big year both for the laws and for people asking those those even larger questions
00:31:41 Kenneth how should the people get in touch with you?
00:31:43 Like we said you're gonna be covering this all year if you are run a shop and want to talk about it or just have
00:31:48 Feelings about your iPhone screens. How should how should people find you?
00:31:51 Oh email me William dot poor at voxmedia.com and I will check back here when I learn more about all those things
00:31:58 Awesome. Thanks. Well, appreciate it as always. Yeah, absolutely
00:32:01 All right
00:32:03 We gotta take a break and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about some big and slightly confusing news from Microsoft
00:32:09 We'll be right back
00:32:12 You
00:32:14 Welcome back
00:32:17 So we talked a little bit about this on Friday's show
00:32:20 But Microsoft made some big gaming news last week that was also kind of small
00:32:25 News the company announced a couple of new bits of information about how game streaming and game pass are doing
00:32:31 But also said that it's gonna take four games which have previously been Xbox exclusives and make them available on the PlayStation and the switch
00:32:38 In and of itself. This is not like earth-shattering news
00:32:41 It's a couple of games in a couple of new places
00:32:44 But there's something bigger going on underneath all of this and the verges Tom Warren
00:32:49 I guarantee you knows what it is Tom Warren. Welcome back to the first cast. Hello. You have had a week my friend
00:32:56 I have it's been an Xbox week. I feel like Microsoft likes to do this to you every once in a while
00:33:01 We're there just like for five straight days. We're gonna ruin Tom's life. Like Tom is this is birthday
00:33:07 So we're just gonna mess up his week
00:33:09 But all the times that he's messed up our weeks
00:33:11 Yeah, so, okay
00:33:14 So let's talk about the news which will take us not very long and then I want to talk about all the stuff underneath
00:33:19 The news because this is very much sort of the the tip of the iceberg above the water kind of moment for for Microsoft
00:33:25 At Xbox so I want to talk about all that but the news of this podcast
00:33:30 Which is just the funniest way ever for Microsoft to release this news
00:33:33 What new stuff did we get from this Microsoft announcement on Thursday?
00:33:37 Yeah
00:33:38 I mean the big news is obviously the stuff that's been rumored for weeks or months now and that is that Microsoft's bringing four games
00:33:45 Which they're not actually naming
00:33:47 We'll get into that but four games to PlayStation and Nintendo switch or Nintendo switch
00:33:53 I don't think every single of those games will come to both as far as I'm aware
00:33:57 But yeah four games on multiple platforms essentially now, obviously Microsoft does publish, you know
00:34:03 Minecraft and games like that and they're gonna be publishing Call of Duty now because of Activision Blizzard on multiple platforms
00:34:08 But I still think this is still although they downplayed it
00:34:11 I still think it's pretty seismic like it's you know
00:34:14 putting your Xbox exclusive games that people have purchased on Xbox on to rival platforms is
00:34:20 Definitely a strategy shift even if they framed it as just for for now
00:34:25 We're just gonna you know, take some learnings out of it and stuff
00:34:27 But that was the big news and then they kind of soften the blow of that because obviously they knew it was gonna be pretty
00:34:34 Controversial amongst Xbox fans like doom and gloom with the fact that they're working on a next-generation console
00:34:41 Which you know, you'd expect them to be right, but they're saying it's gonna be you know, some giant technical leap
00:34:47 So as we'll see what happens there
00:34:48 Other than that, there was the first Activision Blizzard game Diablo 4 coming to Game Pass a sort of reaffirmation of Game Pass being
00:34:56 you know games being day one on Game Pass and then just this kind of light sort of theme throughout it of
00:35:02 Bringing the games to players where they're at. They're very much that multi-platform thing
00:35:06 So right so and that seems to me like the big picture underneath all of this and and my sense is
00:35:13 Microsoft would very much like you to think that it's just sort of running an experiment just trying some things
00:35:20 Seeing what happens. Let's just put some games out
00:35:22 Who knows what'll happen but underneath you get the sense that this is like this is a moment for Microsoft
00:35:28 That is much bigger than it would have you believe
00:35:31 So like dig all the way down to the bottom of the iceberg here
00:35:34 Like what is this sort of big picture thing that Xbox is trying to do?
00:35:38 You got this leaked memo from Phil Spencer that I think kind of seems to lay it out in bigger picture terms
00:35:44 But even that might be downplaying it slightly like paint me the biggest version of this picture here
00:35:48 So I think we have to to paint the picture
00:35:50 We have to understand why they would even do this in the first place, right?
00:35:53 Because it sounds if you said this a year ago people black. No way. They're not gonna bring Xbox games patient station
00:36:00 That's just like, you know conspiracy for you. But if you look like so two years ago
00:36:05 They all see announced the acquisition Activision Blizzard at the time
00:36:09 They had 25 million Game Pass subscribers and they announced that since then we've never heard anything more about how many Game Pass subscribers
00:36:15 They've had at the time. They were kind of pushing Game Pass as the reason to buy an Xbox Series S and X
00:36:20 They launched the Series S as a $300 console
00:36:23 That was kind of the Game Pass console right that you buy that to get the Game Pass subscription
00:36:28 That was the way in right sales of those consoles haven't gone as well as Microsoft hoped
00:36:33 We've seen that they're still lagging far behind the ps5 and Game Pass has stalled
00:36:38 So Phil Spencer admitted that in like late 2022
00:36:41 So probably about about 10 months or so after they they announced that 25 million
00:36:46 And I think you can fairly safely assume that the fact that we have not heard much since then
00:36:50 Is not a sign that it has massively turned around not good news
00:36:54 But the one thing we didn't mention with the news is that they actually said 34 million now. Oh interesting
00:36:59 Okay, which was pretty much a spot on what analysts said they said thirty three point three million
00:37:04 So it's like very close that includes Game Pass core, which used to be Xbox Live Gold
00:37:10 So that is an interesting part as well
00:37:12 But when you take that example of Game Pass stalling
00:37:15 Microsoft needs to find revenue growth elsewhere if they're not selling the consoles and getting that user base up
00:37:22 So they can sell you know, the the micro transactions the games or the in-game content everything else
00:37:28 You need to find revenue from elsewhere
00:37:30 Right, you still need to grow Microsoft needs to grow especially when they're putting so much money on the line for these studios
00:37:35 And so I think that's the main driver behind this and you're right like they're framing it like it's a test, right?
00:37:42 They're gonna learn and I'm sure yeah, they'll learn a bunch of stuff
00:37:45 But they've already been publishing on PlayStation and Nintendo for four years now
00:37:49 So there's not a lot of learning so they're gonna pick up there that they don't already know
00:37:53 So if I'm Microsoft it feels like you take kind of the last couple of years and you can you can do one of two
00:37:59 things you can either say we believe that
00:38:02 Streaming and cloud and Game Pass is the future
00:38:06 We think we're early Microsoft has a really long history of being slightly too early to really good ideas
00:38:11 Yes
00:38:11 But we are gonna keep pushing on this and they've talked a lot about how they're in third place and this is the way to
00:38:17 Win the next generation. And so if you're Phil Spencer, there's a version of this story where you say the only way out is through
00:38:22 Right. Yes. The other side is to say maybe this isn't working and then to say, okay
00:38:28 Let's go back to something that feels more like a way that you can actually make money in the gaming industry
00:38:34 yeah, and the two ways to do that are either make games that people buy on lots of platforms or
00:38:37 Make a gaming platform on which people buy your hardware and play your games and it feels like
00:38:43 Microsoft is wanting to say that it's still on the streaming is the future side of things
00:38:49 But it's kind of like trenching back towards this like very normal way of running a gaming business
00:38:53 Yeah
00:38:54 That's a good point like the cloud stuff is also a big part of this as well because they kind of bet on
00:38:59 Cloud being bigger than it perhaps has been or will be potentially in the next four or five years
00:39:05 Essentially had they've also this vision of exports everywhere like on on every screen or whatever which we've heard them say in this leak memo
00:39:12 It's always been that vision like on PCs on consoles on cloud, you know getting into mobile devices through streaming
00:39:20 That's always been that vision. They've just kind of tweaked it to now include PlayStation and Nintendo switch as targets for that for that vision
00:39:27 Something that I haven't seen anyone's kind of picked up on or I haven't written about it
00:39:32 I probably should but if you think about this when you when you publish a game on on a rival platform
00:39:37 Say like blizzard they publish like overwatch on multiple platforms
00:39:41 You sign in with your blizzard ID to get into that game that gives you cross-progression
00:39:46 And all sorts of account linking stuff once if Microsoft does that with its games that it brings to PlayStation switch
00:39:52 Like it requires an account where you get some of that
00:39:55 exports ecosystem the cross saves and if you do want to buy an exports and all your saves are there all that sort of stuff
00:40:01 That they constantly talk about and what once if they do
00:40:03 Eventually then start sending subscriptions to give you in-game stuff or like perks and stuff for those games
00:40:11 I don't know exactly how that'll work in terms of the platform holders allowing that but it's a
00:40:16 Possibility that these could even be like Trojan horse games for something like that down the line
00:40:20 Because they know they can't get game pass natively on those caught on those consoles because they Sony's gonna want their foe
00:40:26 bsync cart
00:40:27 Nintendo is and just like Microsoft would if it was the other way around so but do you feel like there is a possibility that
00:40:32 They might be able to work around some stuff with the account stuff. We'll see that's interesting
00:40:37 And and so maybe I'm not giving Microsoft enough sort of vision credit there that maybe
00:40:41 They're not just pulling back - we have to sell people video games because that's how you make money in the gaming businesses by selling
00:40:47 People video games and we have to do it any way possible
00:40:49 That they can do a little bit of that while also still pushing on this
00:40:53 Xbox everywhere
00:40:55 Every screen should be an Xbox kind of strategy, which like it'll actually I think is the right strategy
00:41:00 I think it's again. It seems like Microsoft is early here and whether it can survive how early it is
00:41:06 Remains to be seen but it does feel like that ought to be where all of this goes and maybe Microsoft isn't giving up on
00:41:13 That entirely by doing this now. I think a part of it is also they obviously game pass is pretty disruptive
00:41:19 It was definitely something that kind of shook up the industry a little bit. It definitely made Sony respond, right?
00:41:25 They responded with with subscriptions beyond what they were offering
00:41:29 And I do wonder if that's kind of Microsoft's plan here as well
00:41:32 It's like to try and shake up this idea of exclusivity because obviously we saw the Sony president announced just
00:41:37 hours funny enough before
00:41:40 Microsoft's event that they wanted to aggressively pursue
00:41:42 Multi-platform or that's the way they say it
00:41:45 But I think the way that you can really understand that is PC because he did mention computers in particular
00:41:50 So I think that's more them saying they want to be day and day on PC more often
00:41:55 And because there's money to be had there right now
00:41:57 Helldivers 2 came out recently and it's doing massive amounts and I think this is Microsoft kind of saying
00:42:03 Sony you should probably do this as well
00:42:05 You know like do it on PC and I don't know where we'll see Sony do PlayStation games on Xbox anytime soon
00:42:11 But the other part of all of this with if people all publishing on different rival platforms and stuff
00:42:17 It's just valves just sitting there sort of laughing, right?
00:42:20 They've got all the exclusives they want right there. They get in the PlayStation ones. They get in the Microsoft ones
00:42:26 They're not getting in the Nintendo ones unless Nintendo does PC games, which I do think they should but they are building
00:42:31 Quietly building the Steam Deck and Linux platform to rival Windows
00:42:35 And that's one of the the last touch points of Windows for consumers is gaming, right?
00:42:40 If Microsoft loses that they lose a lot of consumer in really if that goes away
00:42:45 So I think there's there's definitely a part of that as well that Microsoft's looking towards
00:42:49 They're seeing what valves doing that strategy. There's a possibility that we could have gaming consoles the
00:42:55 Steam decks, right? They are basically a game console now so you can plug it into TV. Well and speaking of that we were sort of
00:43:02 Anticipating potentially getting some big hardware announcement
00:43:06 We've been waiting for the Xbox handheld for what feels like years now and we didn't get one
00:43:10 But you asked Phil Spencer about it and I would describe the answer
00:43:14 He gave you as the closest thing to saying
00:43:17 Yes, we're building a handheld that he could possibly say without saying the words. Yes, we're building a handheld
00:43:23 Was that your read of what's going on?
00:43:24 Yeah
00:43:25 that was my because he said like unique hardware right like and
00:43:28 Positioning the hardware teams to sort of design in a way that they haven't before and obviously they're gonna have to create unique hardware
00:43:34 If if they are putting more of these games cross-platform, you need to have the hardware be some some sort of unique thing
00:43:40 So that doesn't seem too surprising. But yeah, I did ask him because he always likes a bunch of people's tweets about handheld
00:43:46 So I'm like it's such a funny strategy. I love it. It's so obvious, right?
00:43:50 he's obviously trying to say something but
00:43:52 I think part of is they obviously have to improve the Windows situation on handhelds
00:43:56 So there's competitors to seem deck be a like the Xbox handheld itself
00:44:00 I'm very curious if they if they do that and when and
00:44:04 On what sort of platform that runs because I think the the most ideal thing that they could do which they could technically do
00:44:12 It's just whether they could put all these things together is have it run Windows but never expose Windows
00:44:17 Like Steam Deck has Linux and doesn't really expose it unless you want to go into the desktop
00:44:22 But then have it run the virtual machine of Xbox OS on top so you can get Xbox games on that because then you don't have
00:44:28 to worry about the PC game pass store and
00:44:30 The Microsoft store and which isn't very good on PC and then you get the best of both worlds, right?
00:44:35 You can still play Steam games on it as well
00:44:37 Like that would be if you wanted to sell me a Steam Deck that was running with that would be I think a lot of
00:44:43 People would buy that I think so, too
00:44:44 Well, and this goes back to one of the strangest Microsoft strategies to me and I you and I've talked about this before
00:44:51 But I'm curious how you're thinking about it now
00:44:52 which is Microsoft never seems to be able to decide whether it wants to make its own hardware and it kind of
00:44:57 vacillates in and out between betting really big on surface and doing some really interesting work and really changing the PC industry and then
00:45:04 This sort of pull back from the innovation there
00:45:07 Which you know caused Panos Pane to leave and some other machinations going on there
00:45:11 But it seems like if I'm Microsoft and I am all in on the hardware business
00:45:15 They should have built more Xbox stuff by now
00:45:18 So it seems like there's there's one way to read that that's like well
00:45:21 these two things are too obvious to have not been together by now, right if
00:45:25 Microsoft actually cared about doing this and if you're taking the Windows strategy
00:45:30 You just kind of are happy running on partner devices rather than trying to build your own
00:45:34 Yeah, but then it is pretty obvious that they're building a handheld
00:45:37 So like what do you make of this like does Phil Spencer want to build this hardware?
00:45:41 Or is he trying to like start an ecosystem of hardware that he can just put his games on?
00:45:45 I think ultimately they probably do want to build the hardware
00:45:48 Okay
00:45:49 there probably some sort of combination of the surface team doing that or helping out with it because they kind of help out with some
00:45:54 Of the Xbox stuff anyway, and a lot of the lab testing is kind of shared
00:45:57 But yeah, I do think they'll build it
00:46:00 It's just it comes back to the question of what platform would it run on?
00:46:03 And I think that speaks to probably why they haven't done it before
00:46:06 There's been that weird like it always is weird split between Xbox and PC
00:46:10 Stuff and Microsoft's always tried to kind of force the console stuff on to PC, but PC gamers don't really want that
00:46:15 They use discord and steam and they don't really care about an Xbox party chat or whatever
00:46:21 Like that's not a thing right and it's just I think that is reflected internally like there's like the old days
00:46:27 What was that all chart where like Microsoft's business units will point in guns each other?
00:46:31 Like I think that's still that still kind of exists a little bit in it
00:46:35 There's still fiefdoms and stuff, you know
00:46:37 Like I do think that Xbox hasn't been able to do exactly what he wants on Windows because the Microsoft stores there
00:46:43 You know, there's a control of Windows. There's a way from Xbox
00:46:47 So if they can break down those barriers
00:46:49 Somehow like they're gonna have to if they want their gaming business to survive on Windows at least anyway
00:46:55 Because valve is doing some impressive stuff and I don't know that's that that's the biggest threat
00:47:00 I think to it to Microsoft's gaming stuff rather than
00:47:03 Sony when Microsoft talks about its competitors Phil Spencer and others they talk a lot about PlayStation and Nintendo
00:47:09 Yeah, but they don't talk a lot about valve
00:47:12 Like how much do you think valve weighs on Phil Spencer's mind as he considers the future of Xbox?
00:47:17 I think more so these days, although he probably wouldn't admit it
00:47:21 But I think you can just see like obviously Steam Deck isn't doing huge numbers right now
00:47:26 But it's starting that category of devices, but it's like beloved
00:47:30 Yeah, and it's beloved game like capital G gamers like love that thing
00:47:34 And I think I feel like if I'm Phil Spencer
00:47:36 The thing I've learned over the last decade is I have to keep the capital G gamers happy. Yes, exactly
00:47:41 Yeah, it's becoming it's something that's had promised for like 10 years and now it's like an actual reality
00:47:47 Like people are actually playing these things. They're not just some random OEM from somewhere like this
00:47:52 There's creating them. This has got the full backing and in Proton on Linux. That's the main that's the key, right?
00:47:57 It's getting those games and like not emulated, but you know, like translated onto Linux
00:48:02 So yeah
00:48:03 I feel like if they can tie it all over together internally at Microsoft
00:48:07 Then they could pull something off like the windows underneath and the Xbox on top
00:48:11 But there's licensing stuff like they publish to say when they bring their game to Xbox. It's on a console right now on a PC
00:48:17 Interesting. There's a lot of stuff to like work through if they're ever gonna do that
00:48:21 I don't know whether it ever realistically happened
00:48:23 But that would I still maintain that if they did pull it off somehow it would be a killer device
00:48:30 It does feel like this is a year where if everything goes, right?
00:48:34 Microsoft's vision for this could come sort of to fruition in really interesting new powerful ways, right? It has yeah
00:48:41 Activision Blizzard so it has this big new
00:48:44 I mean title in Call of Duty
00:48:46 But also this big new pipe into mobile in a way that Phil Spencer has been telling you for years is really important with all
00:48:51 The changes coming to the app stores
00:48:53 Microsoft might have an in to be able to do more stuff the handheld thing could start to happen
00:48:58 like it just feels like if Microsoft's vision of kind of Xbox everywhere and being this
00:49:03 Platform across all different screens
00:49:06 Like it does seem like a lot of things would have to go, right?
00:49:09 But you can sort of see how the pieces would start to fit together, right?
00:49:12 Yeah
00:49:13 No
00:49:13 you can and you mention mobile and I think that's like
00:49:16 There's a key one for them because they're also gonna be publishing a bunch of like all the G mobiles is huge
00:49:21 So we've Activision Blizzard King Candy Crush all the rest
00:49:25 They get a really big entry point into mobile and they've all see we're trying to leverage that
00:49:29 To build a store on iOS and Android, but then obviously the Apple changes and and Phil mentioned
00:49:35 I specifically pushed him on the Apple changes for exports cloud gaming because I think that's that's kind of a precursor
00:49:42 I'd say to the mobile store because they've been trying to get that app on there for four years now and they've had to do
00:49:47 Progressive web app instead and it's interesting that he said we can't monetize
00:49:52 Exports cloud gaming even if they were to do an app. So obviously whatever Apple's changes are under the hood
00:49:59 They're not good enough for Microsoft and it's also interesting that those changes and what Apple's doing in
00:50:04 iOS 17.4 by removing the PWA apps means that exports cloud gaming is basically just gonna it's gonna be a link now
00:50:11 It's not even gonna feel like a slightly native app
00:50:14 So that puts them back a step back as well in the EU markets at least anyway
00:50:19 Yeah
00:50:19 Apple's ability to claim it has opened up the App Store while seeming to not
00:50:25 Satisfy anyone who wants a more open App Store has been very impressive. Is he still thinking about?
00:50:31 Mobile as kind of the center of what's next in the gaming ecosystem in the same way
00:50:37 I feel like a few things have shifted right because for mobile for Microsoft that when they were thinking about it was more cloud
00:50:43 right before a BK to which blue clip is the king but now the cloud has slowed down and
00:50:49 People aren't really as interested in it and handhelds are emerging right as the kind of mobile now almost I feel like that's that
00:50:57 Shifted things a little bit. It's definitely shifted it our thinking like we thought the cloud would you know?
00:51:02 Grow like Microsoft did and I think targeting mobile native games in iOS and Android is is still a ways off like they had
00:51:09 They have these big ones, but they still need to build a bunch of different games there
00:51:12 So, um, I don't know that there's necessary change
00:51:15 I think it's just definitely pushing more towards the handhelds than cloud to get to that sort of mobile state or this idea of
00:51:22 exports everywhere
00:51:23 You know well into that point actually one of the things you asked Phil that I thought was a very funny way of asking the
00:51:28 Question was basically would you rather continue to pursue the next minecraft or the next pal world or the next version of these?
00:51:35 Individual games not gaming platforms, but games that are sort of universes and platforms unto themselves
00:51:41 Rather than trying to get more game pass subscribers, and he said he gave you a really wishy-washy answer
00:51:47 Which is basically like we'd like both which like of course
00:51:49 But it does seem like we might be entering a phase where rather than I have access to you know
00:51:56 These ten triple-a games all in one place. We're kind of entering a place where the triple-a game is the platform
00:52:03 Like that's what fortnight is becoming that's minecraft. Is that roblox?
00:52:06 Is that maybe that's the next turn?
00:52:09 Rather than I have a bunch of sort of disparate games all available in the same app and Microsoft is gonna like all you have
00:52:15 To do is look at the money and that's what it would tell you to chase right now, right?
00:52:18 I know I agree
00:52:19 I kind of posed the question to him is like that's my thinking that they'd rather have them another minecraft light or a fortnight
00:52:25 You know like these are essentially social platforms that the teenagers hang out in right just to chill with their friends
00:52:33 And so who wouldn't want that and the amount of in-game revenue like that?
00:52:38 That's like a big chunk of the exports content and services revenue rise for from from all these in-game purchases
00:52:45 So so I'm sure they would love a massive hit like that and power world was obviously a big one for them having that just not
00:52:52 Exclusive to exports. It's just the fact that Sony doesn't allow those early access games on their platform
00:52:57 But having that available in exports, I feel like that's probably been pretty enlightening as well
00:53:02 So yeah, like I feel like they they would still prefer to have one of those big games than you know
00:53:07 Another million game past subscribers or whatever because they'll probably get the games of past subscribers on the back of that anyway, right?
00:53:14 Yeah
00:53:15 I mean and I think what does seem to be true is that
00:53:17 Making one of those that is a big hit is a lot harder and a lot more finicky than it gets credit for so he's probably
00:53:23 Right to kind of hedge his bets a little bit there
00:53:26 But it certainly seems to be true that if you can get one of those
00:53:30 Handful of spaces online where people actually want to be and hang out and spend time
00:53:34 I mean you've caught lightning in a bottle and you should chase that kind of to the ends of the earth
00:53:38 Yeah, I think it's the thing that they're tracking internally as well as like it's the engagement right there
00:53:43 if everyone tracks these days as well the time spent in a game that the time spent on the console rather than
00:53:48 We've sold X amount of consoles
00:53:50 Which is is great
00:53:52 But it that's a funnel into your software and if you don't have the games to keep people sticky in there and they're going elsewhere
00:53:58 For you know, whether it be Netflix or whatever for the entertainment needs
00:54:02 It's keeping that sticky experience to keep people spending and keep people playing and all that sort of stuff
00:54:07 So that's definitely the way that they're looking at internally makes sense
00:54:11 So, okay last thing and then I'm gonna let you go the four games that are coming from Xbox to other platforms
00:54:16 Microsoft has not announced but you know, because you're you're you're better at this than everybody at Microsoft. Sorry everybody at Microsoft
00:54:22 What do you make of the four games that Microsoft picked?
00:54:26 To do this with and then also you asked Phil about Starfield and Indiana Jones kind of these bigger
00:54:31 Name games the sort of central franchises. Do you think we're gonna see those at some point here in the future go down the same road?
00:54:38 Yes, like the four games are kind of interesting because Sea of Thieves obviously like it's a pirate game
00:54:44 which would be kind of funny to watch Xbox fanboys and
00:54:47 PlayStation fanboys battling out in the seas right seeking each other. It's actually kind of virtually murdering each other
00:54:54 So that's gonna be quite funny to witness and I think that one makes sense, right?
00:54:59 It's a multiplayer game a live service game
00:55:01 You do want those games across as many platforms possible because when when the numbers dwindle
00:55:06 Then it doesn't make for such a good game less people playing it
00:55:10 And so that one makes sense and similar sort of thing for grounded as well similar sort of multiplayer
00:55:15 Sort of experience there and stuff and then you've got like hi-fi rush
00:55:18 Which I think is probably one of the ones where it's like less obvious why it should go on other platforms
00:55:24 But I think the way they kind of launched it was like a shadow drop after an Xbox
00:55:28 I think it's like developer director that I had and it didn't really have much fanfare, but it's like a great game
00:55:33 So that one of the I think Phil described as like a hidden gem which is true
00:55:37 And then they want more people to experience that and it could I guess
00:55:40 Get people to think differently about Xbox games or Xbox is the platform
00:55:44 That's all things same same kind of same thing with pentamon as well
00:55:47 the need to do one about a pentamon is that we should have known it was gonna go on
00:55:52 Switch or PlayStation all the time because in my sis blog post when they first announced it at the bottom of it
00:55:57 They said Xbox console launch exclusive
00:56:00 So aka it's gonna go elsewhere like they had it there plain as day all along
00:56:06 But yeah, like beyond that these are the four that they're talking about initially, but beyond that there are bigger questions around
00:56:12 Starfield obviously Indiana Jones
00:56:15 other games
00:56:17 There's a bit of a backlash as well with the Xbox fans at the moment about Starfield and some of the reporting around it and
00:56:22 Indiana Jones, so I just want to be super clear that Microsoft is considering both of those it was considering it still is considering
00:56:30 It's not off the menu. It's not on the menu. It's not been finally decided or anything like that
00:56:34 So those still could come but they might not we don't know yet
00:56:37 It's not a finalized decision like these four titles are
00:56:39 But I think the the important thing is the fact that they were even considering it shows you what their ambition is here
00:56:47 Right the talk of Xbox
00:56:49 Every screens and Xbox Xbox everywhere all that sort of stuff
00:56:52 If you add it all together
00:56:53 You can you know and you look at their finely crafted messaging during that podcast
00:56:58 If you read between the lines and you look at very no bias or anything like that
00:57:01 You could pretty much see what their strategy is right there. Let's go slowly surely
00:57:06 Maybe some learnings maybe we'll launch day and date certain game in the future on announced games all that sort of stuff
00:57:13 Like they're toying with all these sort of ideas
00:57:15 Nothing is final, but I think it does come down to the fact that they're even thinking about that stuff
00:57:20 That's the interesting part for me
00:57:21 I think that was the bit when I heard that they were like thinking about some of these things
00:57:24 Then you know, it's a bigger strategy shift than the way they kind of teased out on Thursday
00:57:29 Yeah
00:57:30 And you get the sense that Microsoft is trying to do a huge thing without anyone realizing how huge a thing it is
00:57:37 Which Microsoft has learned the hard way when it makes giant noises about how it's gonna change every industry forever
00:57:43 It goes badly. So this time there it seems like they're trying to make just as big a change
00:57:47 But like so quietly that nobody notices
00:57:51 Yeah, and it gives them the room to adjust as they go, right?
00:57:54 I think they could have some plans for certain games to come in like the next six months and the problem everyone
00:58:01 Also has to think about is that this is gonna cost them money to port this to do the work and it's not something
00:58:06 They just go. Okay, we're gonna I'm gonna put this game in here and then you know Monday they publish it
00:58:10 There's this is planned months in advance. This is like a big project internally. So it's not it's not something
00:58:16 They've just thought we're gonna do these four games
00:58:18 But yeah, it does it does give them that freedom to sort of tweet things as they go
00:58:22 Look at what the fans reception look at the sales numbers all this sort of stuff
00:58:26 They'll have people pouring over all this data with MATLAB for hours and hours
00:58:31 I'm sure but yeah, like I think it still speaks to that. There's something bigger going on for sure
00:58:36 All right. Well, I suspect it's gonna be a big year. So we're gonna have to check in a few times, but Tom
00:58:41 Thank you as always appreciate it. Thanks, man
00:58:43 All right, we gotta take one more break and then we're gonna get to the first cast hotline. We'll be right back
00:58:48 (Music)
00:58:57 All right, we're back let's get to the hotline as always the number is 866 verge 1 1 the email is verge cast at the
00:59:03 Verge comm we love all of your questions and we try to answer at least one on the show every single week
00:59:09 We've been getting a lot about the vision Pro and if I'm being honest
00:59:12 I'm excited about the idea of talking about something other than the vision Pro
00:59:15 So if you have questions about anything on earth other than the vision Pro, please send them in 866 verge 1 1
00:59:22 Verge cast to the verge comm this week. We have a question about passwords
00:59:26 Hey, Virg casters. My question is kind of simple. Do you think the recent slate of crackdowns on Netflix Hulu, etc?
00:59:34 On password sharing will achieve their goal of getting more paid subscribers
00:59:39 Well people just throw their hands up and say it was fun while it lasted
00:59:43 You know like many families friend groups and the like, you know, mom and dad pay for Netflix and Macs
00:59:48 I pay for Hulu Disney Plus and Amazon and we've had our little happy
00:59:53 Netflix Amazon sharing ecosystem now that I can't access the Netflix account
00:59:59 I kind of refused to get my own partially out of spite and partially out of my budget
01:00:05 Genuinely not alive for it. So I'm wondering do you think there'll be more people like me who say, you know
01:00:13 And just do without or more people who will suck it up and you know get their own subscription
01:00:18 Who do you think is gonna blink first? I said the services. Thanks. Hope to hear you guys answer this question on the show
01:00:23 Appreciate what you do. Of course. We have a question about passwords and we have a question about streaming who else but Alex Kranz
01:00:30 Alex welcome. Hey
01:00:32 Okay
01:00:33 so first of all
01:00:33 I want to know does your family have a who pays for what streaming arrangement because my family a hundred percent does and I'm glad
01:00:40 to know that others do - yes, but it's really just I pay for everything and then my mom when she wants to watch things or
01:00:46 My sister they like text me and are like can I have your password? So it's just everyone mooch is off of you
01:00:51 Yeah, they're just all mooches. But I guess it's like reciprocal. I mooched off my mom for you know, 18 years. So
01:00:57 That's this is your way of paying them back. That's beautiful. Yeah. So what do you think?
01:01:02 I realize I have a pretty strong opinion here that I can't base on anything, but I'm curious what you think
01:01:07 well, the data suggests that
01:01:10 Consumers blink first that we blink before the companies do right like Netflix has been successful with their password sharing crackdown so far
01:01:18 Which is like a major bummer because I really want them to blink first
01:01:22 But now that Hulu's doing it now that Disney+ is doing it
01:01:26 We're getting more more people in on it at some point
01:01:29 That's gonna stop right at some point people really are gonna stop saying no
01:01:33 I just don't need this product and Netflix has been like really successful because it's Netflix, right?
01:01:39 Hulu might not be as successful even though everyone should go watch Fargo. It's great
01:01:43 You know, a lot of people will be like, I don't need to watch Fargo or whatever new FX show is on
01:01:48 I don't need to watch
01:01:50 Bluey that's that's the Disney+ one, right? Yeah, like that may happen in which case
01:01:55 Yeah, second streamers stop trying to like crack down on all of us. Just let us do what we want
01:02:01 Yeah, that's basically where I land - I think it seems to me that it's clearly going to work from a technological perspective
01:02:07 Like I think when then when Netflix started doing this everybody's like, oh, this will be easy to get around like spoiler alert
01:02:12 Super not easy to get around. They have more or less done the thing they set out to do and
01:02:17 From that perspective. It's clearly gonna work and anyone who wants to lock people out is going to lock people out
01:02:24 They're getting very good at this. It's very sophisticated. It's just gonna work
01:02:26 I do think that if you're a streaming service the very last thing you want to do is give people a reason to say
01:02:32 Do I actually watch anything on here? Yeah and like to your point, right?
01:02:36 There are streaming services that I pay for it. Like for me weirdly enough. It's actually Disney+. I don't use Disney+ that often
01:02:42 I don't really know why like I like all the stuff that's on there. It's just not when I sit down to watch something
01:02:47 It's probably the fourth app I open and so for me the minute it becomes
01:02:52 Sort of in my face whether I want to keep paying for Disney+ I'm probably gonna say no and I think what's about to happen
01:02:59 To a lot of people is it is going to be put in their face
01:03:01 Do you still want to pay for this?
01:03:02 And I think you're right that the answer for most people for Netflix is yes, right?
01:03:07 Like I I watch an alarming amount of Netflix. Most of it is not stuff. I couldn't live without
01:03:12 There are very few things on Netflix that feel like core to my personality and life
01:03:16 But it's just where I go to watch stuff and that's pretty powerful and also only Netflix gets to be that thing
01:03:21 And so for me, I feel like
01:03:23 Disney+ can probably get away with it just because it has some of that same like core content to some people but like
01:03:29 Hulu is actually probably a good example
01:03:31 Like how much stuff is there on Hulu that if Hulu suddenly went away from your life?
01:03:34 You would be like devastated without I really liked Fargo Fargo is really good
01:03:39 I'll give you that look the new season was excellent, but I agree
01:03:43 Yeah, like Hulu is is one I probably I might turn on right I might I might subscribe when I need it and unsubscribe
01:03:50 And I don't yeah, my my big galaxy brain take is that it is both going to work
01:03:56 And it is also going to like speed up this crazy
01:03:59 consolidation that is happening in this industry right now where
01:04:03 Having the account is going to be the way that you win, right?
01:04:07 Like having a login that I have which for lots of people
01:04:10 They're not going to have a login anymore
01:04:12 and they're gonna have to make a new one and making people make a new login is hard and you lose a lot of
01:04:17 People when you make people do it and so I think it's gonna take all of these like not quite
01:04:23 Netflix streaming services and it's gonna make their lives much harder in service of
01:04:28 Trying to get more people so I think it's it's gonna consolidate
01:04:32 That's why they're doing that thing where they're bundling right like true
01:04:35 That's what Paramount plus you can get that now through Amazon because they acknowledge that most people only want that
01:04:41 For either their Taylor Sheridan or their Star Trek fix or to watch the Super Bowl poorly
01:04:46 like so so I think they
01:04:48 Kind of recognize what's gonna happen and a lot of them have made peace with it and and Netflix can get away with it
01:04:54 Netflix has shown it works for Netflix
01:04:55 So Netflix is gonna keep doing it and it'll be fine until one day you say I do I need to watch that many K dramas
01:05:02 Maybe I can watch something else on another channel and be done, right?
01:05:06 Yeah
01:05:06 We're definitely in a phase where
01:05:07 Netflix kind of continues to flex on everybody and everybody is trying to do a Netflix impression and it seems less and less likely that
01:05:13 It's gonna work for a lot of these companies. Yeah
01:05:15 All right
01:05:16 Well, we'll see in the meantime
01:05:18 We still should have been angrier about this the whole time and I am angry about it now and we will continue to be
01:05:22 angry about it just find a great website where you can download a file and then you put that on a software program and it
01:05:30 Stuff happens. I don't want to get too into it
01:05:32 But you can work around it at the end of this Alex's Plex server will be the only streaming service left and it will be
01:05:37 Great. You just pay me money. Don't actually pay me money. I nobody please don't come and shut me down
01:05:42 I do not share it with people for money. That's wrong and immoral. Well, we're all going to jail, but thank you Alex. Appreciate it
01:05:49 You're welcome
01:05:51 All right, that's it for the verge cast today thanks to everybody who was on the show and thank you as always for listening
01:05:56 There's lots more on everything we talked about at the verge calm lots of right to repair coverage lots of Tom stuff
01:06:02 Especially his interview with Phil Spencer, which you should read all of its really interesting
01:06:06 We'll put some links in the show notes, but you know the verge calm. It's a website
01:06:09 We like it as always if you have thoughts questions feelings or other games
01:06:13 You'd like to see ported to new platforms
01:06:15 You can always email us at verge cast at the verge calm or keep calling the hotline
01:06:19 866 verge 1 1 hearing from you is my absolute favorite thing about doing this show
01:06:24 So keep them coming
01:06:25 This show is produced by Andrew Marino Liam James and will pour the verge cast is verge production and part of the Vox Media podcast
01:06:31 Network Neil I Alex and I will be back on Friday to talk about more AI news mobile World Congress and a whole bunch of
01:06:36 Other stuff. We'll see you then rock and roll
01:06:38 You
01:06:40 You
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01:06:45 (electronic music)