Ex-Sunderland kitman Stephen Aziz talks Kyril Louis-Dreyfus, Alex Neil, Charlie Methven and new kits.
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00:00 I actually, the first day I remember Luke09 coming in,
00:03 obviously not heard of him before,
00:05 and he's come in with his agent,
00:08 and his agent looked more like the player than Luke09 did,
00:11 so I shook his agent's hand and said, "I'm Steve's pitman."
00:14 CHEERING
00:16 Hello, welcome to The Raw.
00:32 We're joined by former Sunderland kitman Steven Aziz.
00:35 Yeah, 12 years as a kitman at Sunderland, we'll tackle that first.
00:39 Obviously you had stints with Manchester City and Middlesbrough as well,
00:42 which we'll come to,
00:43 but my first question really is, how do you get into becoming a kitman?
00:46 I'm really intrigued by this.
00:48 Yeah, it's a question that I've been asked quite a lot, really,
00:51 people asking, sliding the DMs, asking, "Can I get your job now you've left?"
00:55 But now I don't get in the way.
00:57 It is really a tough one, obviously there's not many around,
01:00 there's more than there used to be,
01:02 because most teams really only had one kitman back in the day,
01:06 but now some clubs have got teams of kitmen,
01:08 I think Manchester City now, speaking of the lads there,
01:11 they've got seven kitmen there, all singing and dancing,
01:14 which you've got to have to support the team and the players.
01:17 But yeah, basically my pathway was through,
01:20 my mum was working in the laundry at Middlesbrough,
01:23 so it was sort of a case of knowing someone on the inside that got me in.
01:30 Yeah, absolutely.
01:31 Obviously 12 years at Sunderland,
01:33 I think your first manager, if I'm right, was Martin O'Neill.
01:37 I must have coincided with a really bad time,
01:40 because he was a bit out of...
01:41 Not really probably himself and not really as motivated
01:44 as you'd think this guy was going to be with the history
01:46 and stuff that you'd seen about Martin O'Neill.
01:49 I sort of remember a couple of things briefly,
01:52 because I think it could have only been a couple of months
01:55 that we were there together before the managerial switch was done to D'Cario,
01:59 but I think I remember him being quite quiet and timid
02:02 and not really this guy that I was expecting him to be.
02:05 Do you think maybe he missed his assistant?
02:07 I think Robertson didn't go with him, did he, to Sunderland?
02:10 Not sure, because Wally was there and he was a character,
02:13 and everyone really liked him.
02:15 Seamus, the goalkeeping coach, and he had a decent team behind him.
02:18 So possibly, but like I say, Wally was a top man,
02:23 good character around the place,
02:25 and Seamus, the goalkeeping coach, good people.
02:28 And of course Martin O'Neill made way for D'Cario,
02:31 who is sort of in football infamy.
02:34 He appears on many a podcast as Paolo D'Cario,
02:37 and many things are said and written about.
02:39 What was he like from your point of view?
02:42 From my point of view, it wasn't great.
02:44 I'd obviously left an Italian manager at Man City
02:46 and then come into contact with an Italian manager.
02:50 It was like, "Oh, my God, here we go again with Italian managers."
02:54 Things started to change really quickly,
02:56 and obviously it's well documented about the tomato sauce gate,
03:00 and all that was removed from the canteen,
03:03 and no phones in the building,
03:05 and everyone had to be on the best behaviour, let's say.
03:09 There was no music allowed.
03:11 I think one of the masseurs got told that he couldn't play music,
03:14 and the lads had to listen to music through headphones,
03:17 so there was no real atmosphere in the dressing room.
03:19 When you try and get the lads pumped,
03:20 and you look around the dressing room,
03:21 there's guys walking around with headphones on.
03:23 So you're not really sure what the lads are listening to.
03:26 I think from what I've seen over my time,
03:29 I've always really had a designated DJ, whether it be me.
03:33 I think at the minute it's Clark, and Jack Clark's like,
03:35 "Honestly, that guy could be DJ,
03:37 because he's just got bangers after bangers."
03:40 It could be something old or something new,
03:43 and he's just got the lot,
03:44 and I think the lads at the minute are always looking to Clark for the tune,
03:47 so they're probably missing out at the minute with him not being playing.
03:50 - No, absolutely.
03:51 What was it like when Di Canio came in,
03:54 the change in the group as well?
03:56 Because there was a lot of senior pros in that group as well,
03:59 wasn't there, Jon O'Shea?
04:00 - Yeah, I think initially it was really good.
04:02 Obviously, Kat, Shae, Wes, good group of professionals.
04:06 I think really at the start it went really well,
04:08 and obviously results come quick,
04:10 and that's what you want.
04:12 The initial impact of a new manager,
04:13 that's what you look for when you're changing a manager,
04:16 someone to come in.
04:17 I think everyone did get together and get on board to start with,
04:20 but I think it quickly became, maybe not quickly,
04:24 because obviously we stayed up,
04:25 but then the next season I think was a long pre-season,
04:28 and it got a bit monotonous.
04:31 It's again documented well about,
04:34 I think we were in for 30, 40 days straight on the spin
04:37 without any ideas.
04:38 That becomes really tiring because as much as you want to work hard
04:41 and the lads are getting paid with really good money,
04:44 it's really tough to be in there every day,
04:47 looking at each other for that amount of days.
04:51 - And again, people are only human, aren't they?
04:53 I think a lot of football fans and journalists,
04:56 myself included, were guilty of overlooking that human element at times,
04:59 aren't we?
05:00 Realising that these are guys and they need days off as well.
05:03 - They do, yeah.
05:04 They've all got families and some of the lads were not living in the area.
05:08 A lot did, I think, at that time.
05:10 I think it's a big deal that if you're going to come to the club,
05:12 especially this size, you've got to buy right into it.
05:16 You can't be commuting.
05:17 Obviously, we've seen players that have commuted
05:20 and not really come to the area and lived in it.
05:23 I think the group that we had at that time were really involved in it
05:27 and they were in it.
05:29 - Absolutely.
05:30 You've obviously witnessed quite a few memorable moments
05:34 during your career and had sort of an inside view,
05:37 but one thing I wanted to ask about is what is it like
05:41 when Sunderland beat Newcastle in a derby?
05:43 Obviously, just thinking of Ticanio there,
05:44 you had the famous 3-0 at their place.
05:46 That must just be such a buzz to be part of.
05:48 Obviously, you're from the North East,
05:51 not Sunderland-born, but you've got a massive affinity to that club.
05:54 Now, it must be an incredible thing to be,
05:56 you know, to witness and be a part of.
05:58 - I don't think I'd realised what it was like.
06:00 I'd obviously done middles for Sunderland,
06:02 middles for Newcastle derbies,
06:04 and then to see my first game of the derby,
06:07 the Newcastle-Sunderland derby, was at the stadium,
06:09 I'm not too sure which game it was.
06:12 I think it was a draw.
06:13 I'll have to find out which one it was.
06:14 - Was it 1-1 when we got the last-minute equaliser?
06:19 - Possibly.
06:20 So, just on the terms of the atmosphere,
06:23 I've seen games, and obviously I've done Manchester derby,
06:27 previous to this, and I've come into it
06:30 thinking it'll be a standard derby,
06:31 when it literally is much more.
06:33 The passion, I just remember seeing this woman,
06:37 and she was screaming at,
06:39 who would have been the Newcastle manager at the time?
06:43 - Pardew?
06:45 - Yeah, it was Pardew.
06:46 It definitely was Pardew.
06:48 And she's just come from behind the home team dugout,
06:51 and she's just screaming.
06:53 And the game hasn't even kicked off yet.
06:56 I'm like, wow, this must mean a lot to them.
06:59 And obviously, do we do the six in a row?
07:02 And it's...
07:05 I'm really social, and I do like to get out and about.
07:09 And obviously, because I'm about the same age
07:12 as a lot of the players that play on this team,
07:14 I get sort of dragged into the social side of things.
07:17 And the lads are going out celebrating after the game.
07:19 And I remember a couple of nights we've been with them.
07:22 I think Danny Rose, Carlos Quela, a couple of others,
07:27 I think Stephen Fletcher, and I was with a couple of my mates.
07:31 And just after one of the derby games, we'd come along,
07:34 and we've had a good celebration.
07:36 I think you've just got to make the most of it.
07:39 Now, if I could look back then, I think,
07:42 when will this happen again?
07:43 It's times a few are far between.
07:45 So I really did like to make the most of it
07:48 when we beat Newcastle, especially.
07:51 - No, absolutely.
07:52 You know, back to D'Caneo, he made way,
07:55 and eventually we had the likes of Dig Advocaat, Sam Allardyce.
07:59 What did you make of that period at Sunderland?
08:01 Because it was quite rocky, wasn't it?
08:04 It was just about beating Newcastle
08:06 and then staying up, which Sunderland managed to do.
08:09 But the club just never really managed to push on,
08:11 especially under Ellis Short, the former chairman.
08:14 - Yeah, I think, obviously, Ellis put a lot of money
08:16 into the club, and it's well-documented about
08:21 the amount of money that was spent on players
08:22 and wages and stuff, and it really was a time
08:25 when Sunderland was just throwing a lot of money at things.
08:27 And I won't lie, it was an enjoyable time.
08:30 I had trips to Dubai with Sam,
08:32 pre-season trip to the States with Dick,
08:35 and flying all over, business-class,
08:38 first-class private jets,
08:39 and a lot of things that you don't see that side of.
08:42 I mean, social media was there,
08:44 but it wasn't really showing you
08:45 the real details of it.
08:47 And I mean, I think we flew out from Newcastle
08:50 to Las Vegas, and then we get a private flight
08:53 from Las Vegas.
08:54 Literally, it was painful, because I love Vegas,
08:56 and we've literally landed in Las Vegas on the Strip
08:59 and swapped airplanes from one to a private one,
09:01 and then I think we went up to Canada.
09:04 And so you don't really see this sort of side of things.
09:07 And it was really good times.
09:09 I did really enjoy that period.
09:11 Although we were struggling, we always managed
09:13 to get over the line and stay up.
09:15 And I think initially, the Sam one was huge.
09:19 Obviously, I remember us being everything at home,
09:20 and Sam was on the pitch, pumping his chest and stuff,
09:22 and that was incredible.
09:24 To enjoy the last couple of weeks of the season,
09:25 knowing that you've stayed up,
09:27 and then you can have your break and go on holiday,
09:29 and obviously Sam ends up getting the England job.
09:32 And that was devastating for me,
09:34 because I remember speaking with Cookie,
09:37 I wasn't on, the lads had sort of a bonus schedule,
09:39 and some of the staff didn't.
09:41 I wasn't on that, but Cookie had arranged with Sam,
09:44 "Sam's gonna look after you, he's seen your hard work,
09:46 and he's gonna get you locked up,
09:48 so next season we'll get you on the bonus."
09:50 And then obviously Sam had left to go to England,
09:52 so I was devastated about that,
09:53 and then obviously Moisey come in.
09:55 - One of the sort of the main narratives
09:57 that I could remember from that time,
09:59 when things weren't going so bad,
10:01 and it would be really interesting
10:02 to hear your perspective on this,
10:04 was this idea that there was a rotten call within Sunderland,
10:08 and it was players that had been there a long time,
10:10 Catamoult, O'Shea, Brown, all of those sorts of players,
10:14 who were sort of consistently at the club.
10:16 But to my mind,
10:19 whenever there was something positive about Sunderland,
10:21 that group of players tended to be involved
10:24 in digging Sunderland out.
10:27 - I wouldn't accept that idea,
10:28 because seeing like Wes and Shasey,
10:32 this car of people, cats,
10:34 you need people like them around.
10:36 And I think it's something that the club's missing now,
10:38 we don't have these,
10:39 I'm really happy for Cor,
10:41 he'll be back in the group,
10:42 because I know how much he'll be pushing and striving.
10:45 Just to sort of touch away from it,
10:47 I see everyone saying Southgate about Henderson at the minute,
10:50 but I've heard that Henderson's really one of the guys
10:53 that really gets the group together.
10:55 So although he's not doing it,
10:56 maybe on the pitch at a level,
10:58 and obviously he was saying
11:00 that he's obviously come back from Saudi now,
11:02 but he was still getting picked when he's been out there,
11:04 it's because he's a key part of the group.
11:07 And I think what a lot of the time the fans don't see
11:10 is that these players who are not always on the pitch,
11:13 they're also playing a huge part
11:15 in getting the group together
11:16 and getting them pushing in that direction.
11:18 I think at the minute,
11:19 Sunderland don't really have enough of them around
11:23 to sort of help the younger lads,
11:25 because we've got a really good young team.
11:27 And I think with the support of some older,
11:29 experienced players,
11:30 if you get that balance right,
11:32 because I don't think you can just go for the youth,
11:34 I think you've got to go with a real good mixture.
11:38 I think as much as I'd probably want to,
11:40 to make everyone happy and jump on the bandwagon
11:42 and slay it then too,
11:44 I can't really speak ill of them
11:45 because I know that they've treated really well
11:47 some of the staff.
11:48 And I just like all credit to Luke again,
11:51 jumping in and taking it in his stride.
11:53 And he's like a Sunderland hero already.
11:57 - As you came to the club under John Cook,
12:04 who was ex-Sunderland player
12:05 and long-serving kit man as well,
12:08 what were your thoughts on working with him?
12:10 Again, never hear a bad word said about him.
12:12 And actually, when you speak to people,
12:13 I've spoken to Niall Quinn, Mickie Gray,
12:17 amongst others about him,
12:18 and they say that he was an integral part
12:20 of the dressing room,
12:21 which is perhaps sometimes something
12:23 we as fans don't realise,
12:24 that yes, it's about the players and the manager,
12:26 but there's a big network of support staff
12:29 and they're just as important.
12:31 - Yeah, they are.
12:31 I owe my career and everything I am about,
12:36 as a father, as a husband,
12:39 and bloody hell, it's emotional to say,
12:41 'cause he's a diamond of a guy,
12:44 and I could not thank him enough.
12:46 And when you meet other kit men,
12:48 that other teams,
12:49 you get on, you speak to them,
12:51 but you only meet them twice a season,
12:53 if you're lucky.
12:54 And cookie, from the first time that I've met him,
12:57 I've not sort of come into contact with him previously.
12:59 And I'd been around for like six, seven years,
13:01 and I'd not really seen him.
13:03 And the first time that I did,
13:04 he was in his office at Sunderland,
13:06 and he sort of expressed that he was looking
13:09 for someone to come and help him.
13:11 And we sort of continued this conversation
13:14 through the season.
13:15 And yeah, without cookie,
13:17 I wouldn't be at Sunderland,
13:18 and without him as well,
13:20 and his advice,
13:21 and just who he was as a guy,
13:23 and his family, the kids, his wife,
13:27 just really good people.
13:28 And Sunderland was their lives,
13:30 and sort of by default,
13:32 I'd taken over from John.
13:34 It was a really tough time for me,
13:35 because I'm looking at this guy,
13:36 and I think I've previously called him,
13:38 like he was my work dad,
13:40 and we just didn't have a crossword.
13:43 And I could not have a bad word said about him.
13:45 And everyone loves cookie,
13:47 and he was just the,
13:48 he was the heartbeat of Sunderland,
13:50 and he was in that academy,
13:53 and he was around,
13:54 and he was different places in the offices.
13:56 And it was really hard to sort of follow
13:59 up after John.
14:00 It did really hurt me to see how things
14:04 had sort of went,
14:06 and obviously COVID sort of got the blame for that,
14:08 and all the politics of the things.
14:11 And it was really hard for me to take over.
14:13 I obviously took his job, basically, by default.
14:18 We, I think both had to get interviewed for the job,
14:20 and there was one role,
14:22 and I was under no illusions that they weren't taking me,
14:25 because I was a better kit man.
14:26 They were probably taking me,
14:26 because I was the cheaper option.
14:28 And I'm not that, I know that,
14:31 but yeah, me and cookie still speak this day.
14:34 Still got a really good relationship.
14:36 And yeah, be a friend for life,
14:39 and his kids, Zach and Jane, his wife,
14:42 Janice, like, yeah, I hold them really in high regard.
14:45 I can't speak highly enough for them.
14:47 - No, absolutely.
14:48 And that sounds like it must have been
14:48 an absolutely horrendous situation
14:50 to be involved in as well.
14:52 Again, speaking to Niall Quinn,
14:54 I think it was at John Cook's testimonial,
14:56 which was brilliant at South Shields,
14:58 and I asked him about the moment
15:00 in the playoff final against Charlton
15:02 where John Cook's the one consoling
15:04 Mickey Gray after Mickey Gray's missed,
15:06 yeah, the contract.
15:07 - That picture's still up,
15:08 I think we've got a picture up in the lounge, you know?
15:10 - Have you?
15:10 - It's still in the kit room, yeah.
15:12 It's still up now, obviously.
15:13 That's just, again, I've taken sort of seeing that picture,
15:17 and obviously the times that we've had,
15:19 and the ups and the downs,
15:21 you've just got to be there for that
15:22 as much as you, the celebrations,
15:24 and you want to go and celebrate with them.
15:25 When things don't go right,
15:27 you've got to also be there to pick them up as well.
15:29 - Well, this is it,
15:30 and I asked Niall Quinn about that picture,
15:31 and he said that was one of about 10 million times
15:34 where Cookie was the guy lifting us up,
15:37 and that must have been hard for you to come in
15:39 and effectively be replacing your mentor,
15:42 your friend, and a seismic figure at the club.
15:45 - It's tough not to see these people,
15:46 that people like Cookie, people like Cat Spalding.
15:50 We should have them people around
15:53 because they're the ones who feel everything in the club,
15:56 and again, myself, 12 years being there,
16:00 it's hard for me, living in Middlesbrough,
16:02 being a Borough lad,
16:04 I thought I was just going to go up there
16:05 and I'll just see it as a job,
16:06 and really, obviously, I've seen the Niall Quinn statement
16:10 about something getting under your skin,
16:11 and it really doesn't.
16:13 No one can sort of put themselves in my shoes
16:16 unless you've been there and seen it and done it
16:18 and felt what it's like,
16:19 and I think if any man were to be in that role
16:23 and see what it's like and what it means
16:25 for as long as I have,
16:27 you can't really sort of give...
16:29 'Cause I've had a lot of stiff being in Middlesbrough.
16:33 - I can well imagine.
16:34 - Especially with the beaters this season,
16:36 I was getting dog's abuse
16:38 'cause obviously it was early kickoff.
16:40 We'd previously won, Ross had scored last season,
16:43 so I was given a bit out of our line,
16:45 but this season, after the 4-0 defeat,
16:48 I was getting a lot of stick,
16:49 and it was really tough to get it.
16:50 - Is it good dog's abuse,
16:52 or is it straight into the realm
16:54 of bad dog's abuse at times?
16:55 - No, it's all in good fun,
16:57 but you can only take so much of it,
16:58 so I sort of cut my night short this season.
17:02 I was like, "Right, lads, that's me.
17:04 "That's enough of it."
17:05 But that's why we do it, we love it,
17:08 and you've got to take the rough with the smooth,
17:11 and there's been plenty of that at Sunderland.
17:14 - No, absolutely.
17:14 So we've talked about the club under Ellis Short, John Cook.
17:18 Obviously, the decision to make John Cook redundant,
17:21 that came under Charlie Methven and Stuart Donald.
17:24 Now, their tenure at Sunderland is really well-documented.
17:27 There's a whole Netflix documentary about it.
17:29 I thought my main question
17:32 centers around Charlie Methven, really,
17:33 'cause there's a lot of chat about
17:34 whether that persona on Netflix is true to life.
17:38 In my experience, when I met him,
17:40 it seemed pretty accurate, to be honest,
17:42 but I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that,
17:44 and about him and that ownership in general as well,
17:46 'cause it was crazy, it was mad.
17:48 - Yeah, I think you've got to take people
17:50 of how they are with you,
17:52 and, I mean, Charlie was fine with me.
17:55 Donald was, I would say, really good to work for, for me,
17:58 and certain little things that I'd seen him do for staff,
18:03 and how he's treated some of the staff that are there,
18:05 and didn't treat us badly.
18:08 So with all the negative stuff that comes in,
18:10 and what they wanted to do,
18:11 and people thinking about their own agendas,
18:15 I'm just speaking how I find them both,
18:17 and they were both actually fine with me,
18:19 like, actually really good, really.
18:22 Then day to day, got on well with Charlie,
18:25 he'd be in and around the place,
18:26 and Donald the same, didn't really see Stuart as much,
18:30 but, yeah, absolutely fine with me,
18:32 so I can't come on here and absolutely slay him
18:34 for the way they were.
18:35 Obviously, the Netflix things,
18:38 probably everyone's seen that,
18:39 but, no, I think as much as I'd probably want to
18:43 to make everyone happy and jump on the bandwagon
18:45 and slay them too, I can't really speak ill of them,
18:47 because I know that they've treated really well
18:50 some of the staff that have worked for them through here,
18:53 and I don't want to go into their own stories personally,
18:56 but I know that they've treated people decently.
18:58 - And that first season in League One as well,
19:01 I think maybe it's forgotten a little bit,
19:03 but for large parts of it, there was momentum,
19:05 it was going really well,
19:07 you know, Donald and Methrin were popular up until a point,
19:09 there was the double trip to Wembley under Jack Ross.
19:12 From a Sunderland fan's point of view,
19:14 like, that season killed me,
19:16 so God knows what it must have felt like for you,
19:18 'cause it showed so much promise,
19:20 and then it just fell away at the end, didn't it?
19:21 It was heartbreaking.
19:22 - You know, what I would say is that we were,
19:24 as a staff group and a player group,
19:28 to be relegated, we were on the floor,
19:31 and a lot of credit to Jack Ross,
19:33 because he'd come in with his team,
19:35 James Fowler, John Potts, Sammy the goalkeeping coach,
19:40 and they were just good people,
19:43 and they knew everyone's name,
19:44 and I found myself a couple of times,
19:46 and I know definitely one of the players did,
19:49 Benji Kimbioka, got caught out a couple of times
19:52 calling Jack Ross "me",
19:53 because this is how much of a nicer guy he is,
19:56 everyone's with him,
19:57 we're all pushing the same direction,
19:59 and ultimately, when you get to these finals,
20:02 it's fine margins, and it doesn't matter,
20:04 like, you look at Man City, Liverpool,
20:07 these teams can still lose these games,
20:09 it doesn't matter who you've got in charge,
20:11 it just really is fine margins,
20:12 and a lot of credit to Jack,
20:14 he got the full group, he got the staff together,
20:16 we were doing team bonding,
20:19 we were going out for meals,
20:22 he just really wanted everyone together,
20:23 and I cannot speak highly,
20:25 I really rate Jack Ross as one of the top man managers,
20:29 people manager, nice person,
20:31 and I honestly can't wish him well enough,
20:33 because what he did for the club,
20:34 in getting everyone together off the back of another relegation,
20:37 we were on the floor,
20:39 and obviously to get to the finals,
20:40 we were over the moon,
20:42 and we thought it's a done deal,
20:45 we were going to get up,
20:46 and obviously it wasn't meant to be,
20:48 but I think that first season was quite funny,
20:52 because you think you're going to go up,
20:54 and enjoy these places,
20:56 like go to Ackermannton,
20:57 and go to all these smaller grounds...
20:59 - A novelty in the beginning, isn't it?
21:01 - Yeah, it was a novelty,
21:02 and you couldn't get a ticket for a game,
21:03 an away game,
21:05 and you're still getting all these fans coming to the home games,
21:07 it was incredible,
21:09 and then obviously it turned sour,
21:11 by being in that league,
21:13 and the divisions for so long,
21:14 going through so many managers,
21:16 it was tough.
21:18 - No, absolutely,
21:19 that group though,
21:21 the League One group, so to speak,
21:23 especially the first year,
21:24 and moving into the second,
21:25 and third years, and fourth years,
21:26 but there was a lot of characters in that dressing room as well,
21:29 it wasn't a post-Premier League era,
21:30 I'm just thinking that Lee Catmull was still there for the first year,
21:32 you had Chris Maguire come in,
21:33 Aidan McGeady,
21:35 you know, Lyndon Gooch,
21:35 I know you're close to him,
21:36 as somebody that's emerging,
21:38 there's a lot of,
21:40 I want to say, mischief in that dressing room at that time, I reckon.
21:43 - Literally, my group chat's been popping up this morning,
21:46 so I have Max Power,
21:48 Charlie White,
21:49 Gucci,
21:49 John Jones,
21:50 we've got a group chat,
21:51 it's called 'You What?'
21:52 because it's just some of the brats saying,
21:55 'Chaz,
21:56 yeah, they're good guys,'
21:58 and like to say,
21:59 to still speak from the staff,
22:00 it's been so long,
22:01 and we catch up every now and again in person,
22:03 like Gucci, yeah,
22:04 good friend,
22:06 but like them lads,
22:07 Max Power,
22:07 he just,
22:08 he really did come into the group,
22:11 and obviously he got made captain,
22:13 and got everyone together,
22:16 good guy,
22:17 family all come up,
22:19 got really close to them,
22:20 they're sort of like now,
22:23 Mackems.
22:24 - Lugo 9's definitely in that category as well, isn't he?
22:27 Sort of, did you foresee him becoming such a big figure at Sunday when he came in?
22:31 Obviously, when he first came in,
22:32 he struggled, didn't he?
22:34 - I actually, the first day I remember Lugo 9 coming in,
22:37 obviously not heard of him before,
22:39 and he's come in with his agent,
22:41 and his agent looked more like the player than Lugo 9 did,
22:45 so I shook his agent's hand,
22:47 saying, 'I'm just an easy kick, man.'
22:49 'What number do you want to be?
22:50 Like, what size kick?'
22:51 Yeah, and Lugo was like,
22:52 'No, I'm the player.'
22:54 You see, Lugo, he is a bit of a tramp,
22:56 and he's like,
22:57 always in his joggies and things,
22:59 and I think he won't like me saying that,
23:01 but yeah, I remember the first day meeting Lugo,
23:03 yeah, definitely didn't see him being what he is now,
23:06 and I just like, all credit to Lugo for again,
23:08 jumping in and taking it in his stride,
23:11 and like, he's like a son of a hero already.
23:15 I found myself speaking to Lugo quite a lot recently
23:17 before I left,
23:18 because him and his wife have got a couple of kids.
23:22 We've got two kids.
23:23 I think there's a month between our two youngest.
23:26 We've become really close recently over that,
23:29 and he sort of understands my decision
23:31 that I sort of need to take a step back from this,
23:34 because I've got to put some of my time
23:36 into my family life now,
23:37 because as a kit man,
23:38 you've got to give up literally every weekend
23:40 and a lot of hours.
23:42 These strips are so light now.
23:44 If you put an embroidered badge on a shirt,
23:47 it'll sag because it's just so heavy compared to the shirt,
23:51 because the shirt is so light,
23:53 the players are going to be weighed down,
23:54 so people don't really think of that,
23:55 but I think that story needs to be told better from the club.
23:58 - We're left on Jack Ross.
24:02 He gave way to Phil Parkinson.
24:04 How did you find him?
24:06 Didn't go too well for him at Sunderland,
24:07 a bit of a tumultuous time at the club as well.
24:09 There was, I think, fan protests from memories on social media,
24:13 so an interesting time to be a Sunderland fan, that was.
24:16 - Yeah, I'll just be honest.
24:17 How I find and how I see Charlie and Donald,
24:22 I remember, I think, Parkey's first game,
24:25 so I'm kit managing out solely, I'm on my own,
24:28 and Parkey was great.
24:31 First day, I think we played Oxford away,
24:33 and I think we had one training session travelled,
24:36 and I remember coming from, he'd sort of,
24:39 so what we do for away games is the players and staff
24:42 would all eat together, and then we'd go to bed,
24:46 and Parkey sort of wanted to get the staff together,
24:48 and we'd eat separately,
24:50 and I remember my first meeting with Parkey in Oxford,
24:53 he'd had a bit of paper, and he was like,
24:56 "Steve, you paint my son?"
24:58 He used to always call people my son,
24:59 and I was like, "Oh, I've had a bit of a rough week."
25:01 And I'll tell you what, Gaffer, I was shandy,
25:03 and yeah, from the first time I met Phil,
25:07 and we'd had a fitness coach in the calendar,
25:08 who'd been at Bolton with Phil,
25:11 and I'd previously worked with Nick at Middlesbrough,
25:15 and he could not speak highly enough for Parkey,
25:18 and he was great as a guy in the round of players.
25:22 He was fine, he wasn't this big character,
25:24 like a big Sammy sort of expecting,
25:25 but I think if you look back,
25:27 I think we were really unlucky enough
25:28 to sort of get into the playoffs,
25:29 obviously, caught that shot.
25:31 - Yeah, of course.
25:33 - Yeah, but I'll let you know how people are,
25:36 as they were with me, and he was great with me.
25:38 - What was that like, actually, the COVID period for you,
25:40 going from being at work to not being at work,
25:42 and the whole sort of uncertainty around football,
25:46 because it was uncertainty around just life in general,
25:47 wasn't it?
25:48 - I think initially, being selfish, it was great.
25:52 - Probably pleased, yeah, probably happy.
25:53 - Everyone thought, "Oh, our week off moved back."
25:56 So you're thinking, "Yeah, let's have a nice week off."
25:58 And chill and spend some time with the family.
26:02 - Three months later.
26:04 - Yeah, and then, bloody hell,
26:06 I don't think anyone knew how things were gonna go,
26:08 but initially it was really good, I won't lie.
26:10 It felt good to think,
26:12 "Oh, I'm not having to drive up the A9 every day."
26:15 And obviously, Cookie was still around at the time then.
26:17 And so we'll just see what happens.
26:20 And obviously, things transpired,
26:22 and everything didn't really work out great
26:24 for a lot of people, personally.
26:26 And it was really sad times in the end
26:29 for what people lost, what everyone went through.
26:32 And then, obviously, the club ended up getting stuck
26:34 in League One for another season.
26:36 And then, obviously, the project restart, Cookie's gone.
26:40 And we're now with Nike,
26:41 'cause we were with Adidas when COVID hit.
26:44 - Oh, yeah.
26:45 - And then we ended up moving over to the Nike deal,
26:46 the five-year deal with Nike.
26:48 And I was sort of the first hitman
26:50 to sort of bring the Nike stuff in.
26:52 So obviously, if you're signing with the Nike deal,
26:56 you don't want to see any Adidas around.
26:57 Obviously, we'd been with Adidas for five years previously.
27:00 So we have to move all the Adidas stuff out.
27:03 And that was my initial job as I come back,
27:05 was to get rid of and sort of move out
27:08 all the Adidas stuff.
27:08 And I think we've done a deal with a company
27:11 who took all the Adidas stuff,
27:12 and Classic Football,
27:13 so I think they took all that stuff.
27:15 And the Nike stuff starts coming in.
27:17 The players come in and collect the kit,
27:18 but they can't come into the building.
27:20 They've got to train outside.
27:21 So we set up the kit van with all the new Nike gear
27:24 and the lads to take.
27:25 And I think we had probably a bag or a box of kit,
27:28 like, "That's your stuff, you need to keep all that."
27:29 It was, yeah, strange times.
27:32 - I'm going off on a tangent here,
27:34 but what do you make of the modern-day football kits
27:38 in terms of design and quality and stuff like that?
27:41 Because I'm seeing a lot of stuff
27:42 about how expensive the New England kit is.
27:44 And I know when it comes around
27:46 to the new kits being released,
27:48 Sunderland fans are always very vocal about what they want,
27:50 what isn't provided.
27:52 Obviously, you don't have any control over that as a kit man,
27:54 but you do spend a lot of time with these shirts, don't you?
27:58 - Yeah, I mean, obviously,
27:59 we've been involved in the process,
28:01 and I've been involved in the process,
28:03 and I've seen the kits for next season.
28:04 And, Pete, this is a bit of an excuse,
28:06 so I'm not going to tell you what it is at all,
28:07 to get people following up, saying, "What are you doing?"
28:10 But I've seen the kits are incredible.
28:13 - Is it similar to the ones leaked online?
28:15 - I'm not going to say that anymore.
28:17 (Pete laughs)
28:18 - Right, okay.
28:19 - It'll go down really well.
28:20 - Excellent.
28:21 - It'll go down really well.
28:22 That's all I want to say on that.
28:24 But yeah, yeah, so we're involved in the process,
28:27 and we're looking at strips,
28:28 and that's really exciting for me,
28:30 'cause obviously I've got a eight-year-old
28:32 that needs mad, annoying football strips,
28:34 and the amount of strips that we've got,
28:36 it's borderline ridiculous.
28:37 But yeah, it's something I'm really passionate about,
28:40 and I'm hoping to stay involved in.
28:42 But Sunderland, I just, again, didn't realise
28:45 until you were in it, how crazy people are now.
28:47 I've been one, and you've, obviously,
28:50 you messaged me about this,
28:51 'cause I've been one to circulate on the message boards
28:54 to see what people are thinking about kits,
28:56 and if anything's wrong with them.
28:58 And that sort of hindered me a little bit,
29:02 'cause I sort of care what people think.
29:04 So I find myself-
29:05 - I'm exactly the same.
29:06 I'm exactly the same.
29:07 It does get to you, doesn't it?
29:09 - And I'm lucky that I don't,
29:10 and you don't say anything bad about me.
29:11 But obviously, the whole thing with the badges falling off
29:14 with the "Just Sport" thing,
29:16 the first year, initially,
29:17 that was just a sort of team in problems,
29:20 and they changed that quickly,
29:21 and everyone says, "Oh, embroider the badge,
29:23 "embroider the badge."
29:24 But these strips are so light now.
29:26 If you put an embroidered badge on a shirt,
29:30 it'll sag, because it's just so heavy
29:32 compared to the shirt, 'cause the shirts are so light,
29:35 'cause the players don't wanna be weighed down.
29:37 So people don't really think of that.
29:38 But I think that story needs to be told
29:40 better from the club.
29:41 So rather than just put the shirt out there,
29:43 I think if you tell the story a little bit better
29:45 about why we don't embroider badges anymore,
29:47 and from speaking to the guys at "Just Sport,"
29:49 I know that an embroidered badge
29:51 is actually cheaper to do
29:53 than what's the badges on there at the minute.
29:55 And obviously, if you look at the badges
29:56 on there at the minute, it's the best they've done.
29:58 It is actually really, really good.
30:01 And there's no badges falling off anymore.
30:03 That was just the initial.
30:04 But I think people get that in their heads,
30:07 that, "Oh, the badges fell off in the first season,
30:09 "so we hate that company,
30:10 "and we don't wanna be with them."
30:12 But from working and dealing with the guys at "Just Sport,"
30:15 it can't be hard enough.
30:16 For them, they were a really good company to work with,
30:18 and there were lots of Sunderland fans
30:20 working at "Just Sport,"
30:21 and they obviously had the clubs in mind all the time,
30:25 and we'd get a lot of preferential treatment from them.
30:28 And at times when deliveries and things are hard to get,
30:33 and we'd always be sort of pushed to the front a little bit
30:36 because there was a couple of Sunderland fans
30:38 working in there.
30:39 I mean, the guy who owns the company
30:40 is a season ticket holder at Sunderland.
30:41 That's been for a long time.
30:43 And obviously, you've seen the things with the Yvette
30:45 and the Eretro stuff that we've done has been amazing.
30:47 It's gone down really well.
30:49 - There's a takeover.
30:50 Lee Johnson comes in.
30:52 On the subject of takeovers,
30:53 'cause obviously I think you'll have been part of three,
30:57 all very different, but how,
30:59 and you've touched on it a little bit,
31:00 like how uncertain can that make a football club?
31:02 Obviously, during one of the takeovers,
31:04 obviously it led to your role.
31:06 You had to reapply and stuff like that,
31:08 but how much of an effect does it have
31:09 on a football club, a takeover?
31:11 - I think, yeah, it could be scary times.
31:13 It can also be good times.
31:15 Koki had sort of, and again, the guy that he is,
31:18 he said, "Look, I think we were coming,
31:20 "I think it was before Parkey had come in,
31:22 "we'd been relegated the season in Gowell League one."
31:25 And he said, "I'm not sure how things are gonna go.
31:29 "And from hearing what I've heard,
31:30 "it becomes really uncertain.
31:32 "If I was you, I'd possibly try and look at something else
31:35 "and sort of get your name out there,
31:37 "maybe line something up,
31:38 "'cause I don't wanna leave you in the lair."
31:40 And that, again, just says everything
31:41 about the man that he is,
31:42 like just giving me a heads up.
31:44 - Yeah, yeah.
31:45 - Yeah, I'd had a job interview up at Rangers
31:49 and looked at other things.
31:52 So yeah, it can be really uncertain times.
31:54 And then Kirill had come in,
31:56 and from the first day,
32:00 I'd never seen an owner in the laundry before.
32:03 And Kirill had come into my office
32:05 and he asked me how I was.
32:07 Obviously, he'd heard about Koki
32:10 and asked if I was coping, if I was managing.
32:13 And I think that was really refreshing
32:14 to sort of see someone in,
32:16 down where the work's getting done,
32:18 where the real work's getting done at Novanties.
32:21 - Yeah, yeah. - And to have that.
32:22 And then I've built a really good relationship
32:24 with Kirill over the years.
32:25 And I don't know if people probably know
32:27 that we play five-a-side together,
32:30 the staff games and that.
32:31 That's something that's been really good and refreshing.
32:33 We've had five-a-sides out in Dubai
32:35 and we've had them at the Beacon.
32:36 And I think we had one in the States in the summer,
32:39 in Albuquerque.
32:41 So obviously, Kirill loves his football.
32:44 But he's really invested in the staff as well.
32:46 And I don't mean monetary-wise,
32:48 but I mean as time speaking and listening
32:52 to what the staff, their own stories.
32:55 And he knows a lot about me
32:57 and I've gotten really well with him over the years.
32:59 - So Kirill's very much sort of a visible figure at Sunderland
33:03 and he's in and around the place.
33:04 He's talking to people.
33:06 Because I think a lot of people's impressions of Kirill
33:10 is that he's off here, there and everywhere.
33:11 And I'm sure he is at times,
33:12 but from what I've heard,
33:14 he seems quite present at the academy.
33:15 - Yeah, he is.
33:16 He's got an office there and we see him
33:18 and you know where he is.
33:19 And I think, I mean, he's texted me a couple of times
33:24 if he needs something.
33:25 And I think that's a really nice personal touch
33:27 because previously Stuart and Ellis had not really...
33:32 I'd spoken to Ellis a couple of times, obviously Stuart, yeah.
33:35 But to have someone's, like the owner's number
33:38 and for him to get in touch with you
33:40 if he needs something from you, rather.
33:42 'Cause he's, I mean, he's got a PA, Karen.
33:44 So if he needs anything, he can just go to Karen.
33:47 But if Kirill does want anything and he needs it,
33:49 he can come and he can speak to me.
33:51 'Cause I think obviously he's built
33:52 that initial relationship in the first place
33:55 and coming down.
33:55 So he's quite personal, yeah.
33:57 So he's approachable and personal and yeah, decent guy.
34:01 - We'll touch on Lee Johnson quickly.
34:04 A figure who I quite enjoyed at Sunderland
34:07 for the most part.
34:08 Gets a little bit of stick from Sunderland fans
34:10 for being a little too wordy at times.
34:12 And he loves a catchphrase,
34:14 but what was he like to work with?
34:16 - I think that's just Lee.
34:17 Like he just, that's his own personal
34:19 and he's not doing it for effect.
34:20 That's just who he is and that's what he is.
34:23 So I think you just got to take that with the character.
34:25 But yeah, with me, fine.
34:27 Like I've still got a voice note and I've listened to it.
34:29 And from when he left, I think Lee,
34:32 when he got sack, he turned his phone off
34:36 for a couple of days.
34:37 So obviously when a manager normally goes,
34:39 he'll send a message and obviously just touch back
34:41 to Jack Ross.
34:43 It is still known to this day
34:44 that there's never been a queue of people long enough
34:47 to say bye to Jack.
34:48 And 'cause that was just what he was.
34:51 But yeah, Lee had turned his phone off
34:53 for a couple of days, didn't want to speak to anyone.
34:56 And when he turned it back on,
34:57 he'd sent a few voice notes around
34:59 and he sent me like a really, really nice message.
35:01 And I think it's refreshing to see that he did care.
35:04 He really did care.
35:05 He didn't just come for the ride
35:07 and to come be at Sunderland.
35:08 He genuinely thought he was the man to get the job done.
35:11 And obviously it didn't pan out, but yeah,
35:13 he was explosive.
35:17 He was a passionate.
35:18 And I think probably everything that you want in a manager.
35:22 And again, I think people always think
35:24 that they're going to be the ones to get it done
35:25 for Sunderland.
35:26 And just for some of these managers,
35:28 obviously it just didn't pan out the right way.
35:30 I'd say it's fine margins, it really is.
35:32 And when we got beat off Lincoln,
35:34 we'd come back to the stadium
35:35 and the atmosphere that day was incredible.
35:37 I know we didn't get through in the playoffs that year,
35:39 but the atmosphere was incredible.
35:41 And we thought when we got that first goal,
35:42 we're going to push on a year.
35:43 And I really think that if we'd have got a Wembley,
35:46 we'd have got it done.
35:47 But that's obviously all Ipsum.
35:48 But Pat Roberts has come through the boot room one day,
35:50 "Chief, have you got my boots?"
35:52 "Yeah, of course I've got your effing boots."
35:54 And Alex Neil walked behind him
35:56 and give me like that real Alex Neil,
35:58 like eyebrow low.
35:59 - Yeah, Lee Johnson gives way to Alex Neil,
36:03 who is for all, is bad press nowadays
36:07 about the way he left Sunderland.
36:10 He's one of my favourite Sunderland managers
36:12 just because of the way he came in and lifted everything.
36:14 And to be honest, his post-match
36:17 and his pre-match press conferences as well
36:18 were always box office.
36:20 Like he seems a real straight talking guy,
36:22 sort of very different to Lee Johnson
36:24 and Jack Ross maybe before him.
36:26 - Yeah, and I'd previously had Gordon Strachan
36:30 as a Scottish manager.
36:31 So when he'd come in, I was thinking,
36:33 "Whoa, is he gonna be the same as Gordon?"
36:36 Unbelievable.
36:39 Kept everyone on the toes,
36:40 really drove everyone.
36:42 And I spoke previously,
36:44 I don't realise how it's not worked out for him at Stoke
36:48 because you see- - Yeah, it's strange, isn't it?
36:50 - The amount of time and effort that he puts in.
36:53 I'm not saying other managers don't do this,
36:55 but he's so dedicated and he's so,
36:58 just, he was so good.
37:00 And I think the combination of things
37:02 of having the players and having the manager together,
37:05 and obviously Lee's got to take credit
37:06 'cause he sort of built that team
37:08 and getting Pat Roberts and Jack Clarke,
37:11 Alex Pritchard, all these players that we've got together,
37:13 Corey Evans, like, it's just a combination
37:16 of all these things that we've got together.
37:19 And Alex really drove us.
37:21 And he just, he demanded the best from everyone,
37:24 even from myself.
37:25 I remember one day,
37:26 I think it was our first day back with pre-season,
37:29 and obviously I come in and he's like,
37:32 "Right, where's the kit?"
37:33 I'm like, "I'm just going to see what size you want."
37:34 He's like, "No, come on, we want the kit.
37:36 We need to get ready.
37:37 We're ready to work. Let's go."
37:38 And I sort of knew from that
37:39 that I had to be on my game as well.
37:41 So I always had to make sure that Alex
37:43 had everything that he needed
37:44 and he just really did demand everything.
37:46 And there was one little story that
37:49 when I was packing up the boots for a game,
37:52 and obviously, as I'm sure you know,
37:54 a few of you like to call me Chief,
37:56 but that's a term that I use to people.
37:58 I call people like Chief,
38:00 just in general, I'll speak there.
38:02 I had James Chief, you all right?
38:03 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:05 - Pat Roberts has come through the boot room one day
38:07 and he's like, "Chief, have you got my boots?"
38:09 And I asked while back in,
38:10 and I was like, "Yeah, of course,
38:11 I've got your effing boots."
38:13 And Alex Neil walked behind him
38:15 and give me that real Alex Neil eyebrow look.
38:19 And I was like, "Oh, I'm in trouble."
38:20 And he waved me over
38:22 and I'd come through the boot room
38:23 and I was like, "Gaffer, whatever, all right."
38:25 And he was like, "Yeah, and why did they call you Chief?"
38:28 I was like, "Oh, it's just something that I say in that."
38:30 And he was like, "All right, okay."
38:31 And then for the rest of the season,
38:32 he called me Big Chief.
38:34 (laughing)
38:34 He was like, "Big Chief."
38:35 And there was an incident that had happened,
38:38 I don't want to go into detail of it,
38:40 but he sort of pulled me and had a word with me
38:43 and said, "Look, whatever's going on,
38:45 I need to know about this so I can get ahead of it
38:47 and I can sort it out."
38:48 And we had a little bit of a moment
38:50 after the playoff final
38:52 where Alex had said, "Look, do you see
38:55 how you play a massive part
38:56 by telling me these little things
38:58 that you know that's going on at the club,
38:59 I can get ahead of them
39:01 and I can nip them or I can help.
39:03 If a player's having a bad time,
39:05 if you know about any of these sort of little tiny things,
39:08 you come and tell me."
39:09 I don't think he wanted me to snitch,
39:10 but he wanted me just to let him know
39:12 that if there was anything that he was not sure of
39:14 that I should tell him and then he can get...
39:16 And I think that's where he's having a manager
39:19 and having a head coach, sort of different things.
39:22 So having Alex as a manager
39:23 and him wanting to control these little things
39:25 sort of helped us as well.
39:27 So yeah, after the playoff final,
39:28 he sort of pulled me and he was like,
39:29 "Look, do you see that with your help
39:32 and sort of getting rid of these little things?"
39:34 It was really nice of him to sort of come away
39:36 from that part of us all celebrating
39:41 to sort of see and show,
39:42 look at what you've played a major part in this.
39:45 And let me just touch on another one
39:48 from the playoff final,
39:49 'cause I don't know if a lot of people know this,
39:50 I haven't spoke about it previously either,
39:51 but the suit that Alex Neil was in at Wembley,
39:56 'cause I've seen it, obviously,
39:57 you know that I troll the message boards
39:59 and obviously it is nice to read the good stuff as well,
40:02 but no one really knew that.
40:04 I think Alex's dad had said to him
40:05 that if you're gonna manage at Wembley,
40:06 you've gotta wear a suit because it's traditional
40:08 and you can't go out in the track suit
40:10 and he really didn't wanna do that.
40:11 So he's got his suit on,
40:13 we've done the national anthem,
40:14 we've ran inside, I've got his kit ready
40:17 'cause he wants to wear his track suit on the touch side
40:19 and Alex Neil's kicking shoes at me
40:21 and pulling his tie at me
40:22 and I'm passing him his kit back.
40:24 It was just a little sort of moment
40:26 that only me and Alex shared
40:27 and me and Alex knew about
40:29 and everyone was like,
40:30 he must've been Superman in a telephone box,
40:33 getting that suit off,
40:33 or does he have it underneath him?
40:35 But yeah, that was really nice little sort of to play a part
40:38 'cause everyone was like,
40:39 he was in and out so quick.
40:41 - We haven't even really mentioned Lyndon Guccia,
40:42 obviously, as I mentioned before,
40:44 one of your good friends in football,
40:46 but I wanted to touch on this idea
40:48 of sort of the experience in Sunderland's squad
40:52 or lack of now,
40:52 you were around that group,
40:54 the likes of Danny Bart, Alex Pritchard, Lyndon Guccia.
40:57 Yeah, they've sort of gone now
40:59 and it's left Sunderland's squad looking pretty good.
41:02 What are your views on that?
41:03 I know it's difficult probably not to be sort of,
41:06 not to be, well, it's difficult to be neutral on that
41:08 when you've got such a vested interest,
41:10 but for me, it just looks like
41:11 Sunderland are lacking something now.
41:13 - Yeah, it's hard and it's made my decision
41:16 a little bit easier.
41:17 It wasn't easy, but it's easier to come away
41:19 when the guys that have been around for a long time,
41:21 like Gucci, Pritch,
41:23 people say there's no friends in football and blah, blah, blah,
41:30 but I think Gucci I'm really close to.
41:32 And when Gucci had left them,
41:34 sort of he's the heartbeat of the club
41:36 and he's in there and he knows exactly what it means.
41:38 His family are all living,
41:39 not his family, his family-in-law's,
41:44 like they're all in the die-hards
41:45 and it's him in the players' lounge.
41:47 My wife gets on with him and like the family
41:49 just live and breathe Sunderland
41:51 and for him to go and take that away,
41:53 obviously Luke's there, but I'm talking about a guy
41:55 who's technically is a Macca Monique,
41:58 you know what I mean?
41:59 He's been here for so long.
42:01 He is, and he knows exactly what it means.
42:03 And I think to see them sort of people
42:07 and the experience, it's tough.
42:09 And I think that is exactly what they're lacking.
42:11 And I'm hoping that the club sort of do realise that
42:13 and sort of look at the model that they're calling it
42:18 and the sort of maybe, I think it's good to admit that,
42:22 don't want to say that they're wrong,
42:23 but you've got to sort of write,
42:25 okay, we've got these young, good players
42:28 and there will come good.
42:29 There's no doubt about it.
42:30 Like when you look at these players,
42:32 injuries aside, if we can get that team out,
42:34 the best 11, incredible.
42:36 But when people like Ross are leaving,
42:39 that long relationship with Ross Stewart,
42:41 I can still speak to him.
42:42 I'm so happy for him.
42:44 It didn't work out at Sunderland
42:46 as in let's give him a long-term contract
42:49 because he is the ultimate striker for me.
42:52 This guy will play in the Premier League,
42:53 I've got no doubt about it.
42:55 But maybe Ross's time,
42:58 he's at an age where he's got to find
43:00 that next security in his life.
43:02 - Yeah, of course.
43:02 - Maybe come into it a bit later.
43:04 But again, great guy, Ross, Gucci,
43:07 like these players, Pritch, Danny Bath,
43:09 experience that core backbone of the group.
43:12 And I've spoken previously, like Man City,
43:15 we had Joe Hart, Vincent Kompany, Mika Richard,
43:17 Gareth Barry, James Milner,
43:19 English group of lads, backbone,
43:23 there's your spine in your team.
43:24 If you don't have that spine in your team,
43:26 then I think you're really going to struggle.
43:27 And I sort of see now with injuries
43:30 and lack of experience is why
43:32 there's probably not doing as well
43:34 as we did last season under Mogga.
43:36 - Yeah, I was just about to mention Modri as well,
43:38 but he's gone now, which is a shame.
43:42 You talk about sort of character and experience
43:44 and know how he had it all.
43:46 Obviously, I'm sure you have views on that,
43:47 but it's so unfortunate that he's gone to Birmingham City
43:51 and then unfortunately had this health issue as well.
43:53 So, I've said it before, but I wish Mogga well.
43:56 In my experience, just such a nice guy.
44:00 - Yeah, I mean, great.
44:02 When you get a manager,
44:03 you've sort of got to let them know
44:07 that they can trust you.
44:08 And obviously, changing managers so many times,
44:11 I think Dodds, he would have been my 16th manager.
44:14 So, over a 12-year period,
44:17 obviously you're changing every year.
44:18 So, you've got to get to the point where you're like,
44:21 right, this guy's got to trust me now.
44:23 And obviously, people like Jack and Sam and Lee,
44:27 obviously, you earn their trust and they trust you.
44:30 You trust them and you sort of work each other out.
44:32 And it was sort of getting tiring
44:33 that you've got to keep repeating this.
44:35 And when Michael Beale had come in
44:37 and I was sort of, I felt done with sort of
44:41 having to reinvent and show these managers again
44:45 that I'm trustworthy, like I've been here for a long time.
44:49 Michael had sort of had 10 minutes with me
44:51 when I told him that I was leaving.
44:53 He'd asked for a meeting.
44:54 And to be fair, he was really good.
44:55 He was like, "Look, 12 years is a long time.
44:57 It'll be tough for you,
44:59 but I think it's probably,
45:00 it could be maybe beneficial for you
45:03 that you'll have something new and something fresh."
45:05 So yeah, I think sort of it's been a rollercoaster.
45:10 I'd say it's time to get off it.
45:15 - Final question to me,
45:16 and thank you so much for joining us,
45:18 but obviously you've got this wealth of experience
45:20 of football.
45:21 We haven't even touched upon it.
45:22 Maybe we'll get to it some other time,
45:24 but you were at Man City,
45:25 the Aguero moment, working under Mancini,
45:28 you know, Allardyce, Southgate, Burry, you've mentioned.
45:30 You've been at three pretty massive football clubs.
45:33 You've got all of this experience.
45:35 Does Sunderland feel to you like it's on the right path now?
45:39 Because that's a question I get asked a lot from Sunderland fans.
45:41 Are we going in the right direction?
45:44 - I think it's hard because everyone wants the quick yes.
45:48 And really, I think what I'd say to the fans
45:51 is just be patient with this team and support them
45:54 because with the support that our club's got,
45:56 I think that's, I mean, I look at,
45:58 I think with the 11th biggest support club in the UK,
46:02 that is sort of something you've got to hold on to
46:06 and sort of use as our driving force of this amazing support.
46:14 And we've got to support them.
46:16 We cannot be there looking for the negatives all the time.
46:20 And I feel like it's sort of heavily a lot of negatives
46:23 and I think you've got to flip it and sort of be positive
46:26 and back these players because they're young,
46:28 they need the support of the fans.
46:31 And I think for the whole, they do get it.
46:33 And I think we've just got to get behind them and the team
46:35 and Dodsey and just support the lads,
46:37 just really give them your all because with the support,
46:40 I think it showed a couple of times this season,
46:42 even with the backing of the fans.
46:46 I mean, if it's nil-nil, just support the lads,
46:49 just keep on supporting them like you've been doing
46:51 for a long time.
46:52 And yeah, I think this team will no doubt,
46:55 it's too big not to be in the Premier League.
46:58 Just obviously, I have no patience, obviously.
47:01 I wish we could be in the Premier League now and see us,
47:04 obviously with the FFP and stuff, it's really hard.
47:07 You've got to sort of stick to these rules.
47:09 You can't just throw money at it.
47:10 So let's be patient and see what happens.
47:14 I'll be watching on keenly and hoping to get home again
47:16 before the end of the season.
47:18 - No, brilliant.
47:19 I think that's a good place to end.
47:20 Thank you so much for joining us, Steve.
47:22 It's been a real good- - Cheers, James. Thank you.
47:24 - Brilliant.
47:25 Yeah, thank you for Steven for joining us.
47:26 Brilliant podcast.
47:28 Thanks for listening.
47:29 Head over to the Sunderland Echo website
47:30 for all of the Sunderland news.
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