Ivan McClellan is a photojournalist and designer based in Portland, Oregon. His work reveals marginalized aspects of black culture and challenges broad assumptions and myths about racial identity in America.
Ivan McClellan joins 'Forbes Talks' with Ali Jackson-Jolley to provide an inside look at Black cowboy culture, his efforts to grow sponsorship dollars for Black cowboys, and why he launched Eight Seconds Rodeo.
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Ivan McClellan joins 'Forbes Talks' with Ali Jackson-Jolley to provide an inside look at Black cowboy culture, his efforts to grow sponsorship dollars for Black cowboys, and why he launched Eight Seconds Rodeo.
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Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hi, I'm Allie Jackson Jolly.
00:04 I'm here with Ivan McClellan.
00:06 He is the founder of the 8 Second Project
00:10 and 8 Second Rodeo.
00:12 Ivan, welcome and thanks for being here with us.
00:15 - Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
00:17 - Yeah, so you are a fascinating entrepreneur to me.
00:21 You work in the industry of cowboy culture
00:26 and specifically black cowboy culture,
00:29 which for many may feel oxymoronic,
00:31 at least those of us that are not very familiar.
00:34 Many think about cowboys and evoke images
00:38 of lassos and white men riding horses.
00:43 And yet you've created an entire business
00:46 based on black cowboy culture.
00:47 So first just tell us, what is black cowboy culture?
00:52 - You know, a lot of the imagery that you see in films,
00:55 the John Waynes, the lone cowboy on the prairie,
01:00 herding cattle, you know, all of that is cinematic
01:04 and it's beautiful storytelling.
01:07 But when I went to a black rodeo,
01:10 I saw young men riding on their horses
01:13 with gold chains and Jordans on.
01:15 And I saw women clutching their reins with acrylic nails
01:19 and riding with their braids blowing behind them.
01:22 And, you know, the music was hip hop
01:24 and the food was smoked turkey legs
01:27 and barbecue and chicken.
01:29 And it was just this blending,
01:32 this perfect blending of hip hop culture,
01:35 black church and Western culture
01:37 in a way that I never imagined was possible.
01:40 And I got obsessed with it.
01:42 As a photographer, it was just like a joy to shoot.
01:45 And it was so nice to meet these folks
01:47 and hear their stories.
01:49 And I soon realized that a lot of people didn't know
01:52 that this was a part of black culture
01:54 and they didn't know this was a part of the West.
01:56 So I put those stories out there
01:58 and people were really receptive to them.
02:00 - So tell us a bit about your business.
02:05 Is this a business?
02:08 Is the black cowboy industry one in which there is,
02:13 you know, a real market and in which someone as yourself
02:20 can make a living or is this a side hustle?
02:23 Is this a part-time job for you?
02:25 - It's, you know, it definitely started out as a side hustle
02:28 but now it's a full enterprise.
02:30 It started out with commercial work,
02:32 I think was when I got my first money.
02:34 So Wrangler was one of the first clients
02:37 that reached out to me.
02:39 Large heritage brand, they've been around forever,
02:42 but their storytelling was largely around
02:45 that white image of the cowboy.
02:46 And around 2020, they came and were like,
02:50 we need to diversify, we need to expand
02:52 and tell a newer, more modern, more inclusive story.
02:57 So I started working with them
02:58 and working with real cowboys on real ranches
03:01 to tell the story and to put it
03:04 on top of Wrangler's platforms.
03:06 And then after that, along came Stetson,
03:09 you know, Heritage Hat Company,
03:12 Ariat, the Boot Company,
03:14 and basically every other Western brand.
03:17 As this image got out there and movies like
03:21 Harder They Fall and Concrete Cowboy came out,
03:24 even brands like Instagram and Apple started coming,
03:28 wanting this imagery.
03:30 So it's been in demand for nearly five years now
03:34 and just continues to grow and expand.
03:37 I took that and started to get athlete sponsorship
03:42 'cause I had these relationships with these brands,
03:44 like the boot brand, Tacovas,
03:45 has sponsored a couple of athletes.
03:48 Sponsorship is critically important
03:50 to get these athletes down the road
03:52 so they can compete at a high level.
03:55 And then we started our own rodeo last year.
03:58 - So let me just take a step back.
04:00 When you say you worked with the Wranglers
04:04 and the Stetsons to help tell the black cowboy story,
04:09 tell me exactly what you mean.
04:12 You did this through videography,
04:15 through photography, through writing.
04:16 What do you mean when you say that?
04:18 - All of the above.
04:20 I'm a one-man band.
04:21 I do a little bit of everything.
04:23 And so I would go take pictures of people
04:26 or take a video of someone
04:28 and then I would write about them.
04:30 I would tell their story, tell the story of the day
04:33 when we were there riding bulls in an arena in Crosby, Texas
04:38 or tell their story of how they got into rodeo
04:41 and where they're headed and what their dreams were.
04:44 And then they would post it on their social channels
04:46 or we would do that storytelling through video as well.
04:49 - And so you referenced about 2020
04:52 was when these larger brands all of a sudden realized
04:56 that they were not thinking inclusively enough
05:00 about their audiences.
05:04 But when did black cowboy culture,
05:08 when did black rodeos,
05:10 how long have they been a part of,
05:13 I guess, the Western part of America?
05:16 - Since the beginning.
05:17 Since the beginning, black enslaved folks
05:22 started cowboying as soon as they got out of bondage
05:28 and were really influential in the culture.
05:32 They were driving cattle all around the West
05:36 and working on ranches.
05:39 And you have figures in the Wild West like Bass Reeves,
05:44 Nat Love, Stagecoach Mary that have fascinating stories
05:49 and are as tough and rough as any other cowboy.
05:53 And then after sort of cattle drives ended,
05:58 a lot of these cowboys started rodeoing
06:00 so that they could have a place to show off their skills.
06:04 They were great ropers, they were great at moving cattle,
06:08 they were great horse riders,
06:10 and then they started doing that for entertainment
06:13 after there really wasn't a need
06:15 for a working cowboy anymore.
06:16 But black folks have been doing this forever.
06:20 It just took massive cultural upheaval
06:23 for these Western brands to start to recognize it
06:26 and feel a need to tell these stories.
06:28 - And where do you think,
06:30 so black cowboys have been around
06:33 for a very, very long time.
06:35 They've been wearing jeans, I assume, and hats.
06:39 Were they buying them from these historically
06:43 white thinking brands, I'll call them,
06:47 or where were they purchasing their hats?
06:50 Did Wrangler already have a pretty large segment
06:54 of the black cowboy population?
06:57 What do you think?
06:58 - Yeah, I think it's been a case of this culture
07:03 loving these brands,
07:04 but these brands not loving the culture back
07:07 for a long time.
07:08 And you can say that about a lot of different brands,
07:11 especially when it comes to hip hop culture.
07:14 There are things that folks have an affinity for
07:17 and they wear and they represent and promote,
07:20 and the brands don't really reciprocate that.
07:23 It's not a conversation often.
07:26 So to see that change in the Western world,
07:28 which is one of the most traditional
07:32 and white segments of fashion was incredible
07:36 and really amazing to be a part of.
07:39 And then to turn around and get these athletes
07:41 sponsored by these brands was even more important
07:44 and more impactful and frankly rare.
07:47 - And so when you say athletes,
07:49 you mean the rodeo,
07:51 those that were participating in the rodeo.
07:53 - Yeah, yeah, calf ropers, bull riders,
07:57 bronco riders, the women do barrel racing,
08:01 all of these are very dangerous
08:05 and require a lot of athleticism and a lot of skill.
08:08 So I absolutely call these cowboys and cowgirls athletes
08:12 'cause they are.
08:14 - And so it sounds like until recently,
08:19 black cowboys and cowgirls,
08:23 I don't know, you tell me, are they all cowboys?
08:26 - I use cowboy as sort of a gender neutral term.
08:30 - I'm gonna follow your lead there.
08:31 So until recently, black cowboys were not getting
08:36 a large part of that prize money.
08:40 What does a large prize for a cowboy,
08:45 regardless of race, look like?
08:47 - So typical black cowboys,
08:50 typical black rodeos are more amateur.
08:53 So you'll have a prize pool across 10 events
08:57 of $5,000 to $15,000.
09:01 You win a share of that money for your event
09:04 and then they pay out three to six places with that money.
09:09 Rodeos, more broadly, rodeos that are majority white
09:16 can pay a million, $2 million in prize money
09:20 across those same 10 events.
09:22 - And then those cowboys that win those big prizes
09:25 are often getting the sponsorships from Wrangler
09:30 and Stetson or from who's sponsoring them?
09:35 - Anybody in the Western world sponsors.
09:38 - So it's kind of like the race car model, but for cowboys.
09:42 - Exactly, I mean, it's literally like your vest,
09:44 it looks like a race car.
09:45 You got a patch from Wrangler,
09:47 you got a patch from an animal feed company,
09:50 you have a patch from Jack Daniels,
09:52 from a litany of different brands.
09:56 Monster Energy is a big player in this space.
09:59 So everybody's going after this pool of sponsorship
10:04 because that money helps you pay to feed your horse,
10:07 to get your truck down the road.
10:09 And you need that sponsorship money to compete for a season
10:13 'cause it's very difficult to compete professionally
10:15 and have a full-time job.
10:17 So getting sponsorship, getting sponsors interested
10:22 in black cowboys is critically important
10:24 to get cowboys up to that million dollar
10:26 prize pool opportunity.
10:28 - Okay, so you started working,
10:32 I guess I'll call it like in partnership.
10:34 So trying to match up some of the black,
10:37 talented cowboys with sponsors.
10:40 And that led you to decide,
10:44 okay, I'll maybe launch my own rodeo.
10:46 Is that how that happened?
10:47 - Basically, yeah.
10:49 I had an audience on Instagram
10:50 of people that were interested in the culture.
10:54 I had a relationship with a lot of the cowboys,
10:56 a lot of the athletes,
10:58 and then I had this connection to sponsors, to brands.
11:01 So I was like, all you got to do is put all those together
11:03 and you got yourself a rodeo.
11:05 It obviously was a lot more complicated than that,
11:07 but I did my first rodeo last year in Portland, Oregon.
11:11 We had about 40 athletes
11:14 and we gave away $60,000 in prize money
11:18 across five events.
11:20 So for a black rodeo, that money was unheard of.
11:24 People thought we were lying.
11:25 People thought that it was fake,
11:28 but they showed up, tried their hand at it,
11:30 and we pulled it off somehow.
11:31 It was a moment in Portland.
11:34 People went nuts.
11:35 And most of the audience had never been to a rodeo
11:39 'cause it wasn't a space
11:40 that a lot of folks felt comfortable in.
11:42 But we sold out 2,500 seats and put on a hell of a show.
11:47 - Yeah, so I was gonna ask you,
11:49 I'm glad you answered,
11:50 'cause being here in the New York, New Jersey area,
11:55 I was curious, who goes to a rodeo?
12:01 And so your answer is that for your rodeo, at least,
12:06 many were first-time viewers, is that right?
12:11 - Yeah, absolutely.
12:12 I say our rodeo audience are the unindoctrinated.
12:17 They're folks that have never gone
12:20 to an event like this before.
12:22 They don't know the sports.
12:24 They felt uncomfortable going to places,
12:27 and we've created a safe, inclusive environment
12:30 that you can come and experience cowboy culture
12:33 for the first time.
12:34 A lot of other rodeos, you might feel uncomfortable.
12:37 It's a lot of rough people.
12:39 It's a lot of drunk people.
12:41 It's rowdy, and it's really male-dominant, and very white.
12:46 - So it's white, but is it inclusive?
12:53 And let me take a step back.
12:54 I just read, I knew you were coming.
12:57 I invited you here.
12:58 I wanted to understand this industry of black cowboys
13:03 and black cowboy culture.
13:04 And of course, "Cowboy Carter," Beyoncé's album,
13:10 started to make some of us even more aware.
13:13 You're right, you mentioned "The Harder They Fall"
13:15 and some others that came before that,
13:17 but it's really been hitting pop culture more recently.
13:22 Beyoncé said it took her five years
13:26 to get her album produced,
13:29 because she found it very hard
13:32 to work in the country music genre.
13:37 That's Beyoncé.
13:38 That's Queen B.
13:39 That is like, who's got more power and might,
13:42 and frankly, wealth in the black community than Queen B.
13:46 And yet she found it hard to navigate.
13:50 Tell me about rodeos, not black rodeos, but rodeos.
13:54 Are they generally getting more inclusive?
14:01 Are black and brown cowboys welcomed to compete?
14:07 Tell me a little bit about what that feels like.
14:11 - Yeah, you're welcome.
14:13 Anybody can go.
14:16 I go to lots of mainstream rodeos,
14:19 and I've never had any problem.
14:21 I would say the biggest problem is that I stand out.
14:26 People notice me when I'm there,
14:27 and they'll come up and talk to me and be like,
14:30 "Hey, I'm glad you're here."
14:32 But people are friendly and welcoming,
14:34 and it's an open space, I'll say that.
14:39 You don't see a lot of black folks
14:42 at the mainstream professional rodeos.
14:45 Number one, because they don't see other folks
14:50 that look like them,
14:51 and so they might feel a little bit uncomfortable there.
14:54 From the athlete perspective,
14:56 anybody can compete at rodeos at any level,
15:00 but you've gotta have $100,000 in your pocket
15:03 to compete professionally for a year.
15:06 And a lot of black folks don't have access to that capital.
15:09 That money either comes from a rich ranching family,
15:14 or that money comes from sponsorship.
15:16 So you have athletes, black athletes,
15:19 that do very well professionally.
15:21 You have Shad Mayfield, Corey Solomon, John Dowch.
15:25 A lot of these guys do very well
15:28 at the highest level of rodeo.
15:30 But after those three,
15:32 there's not a ton of other black folks that you see
15:36 competing at the highest level of the sport
15:39 and going for the championship money.
15:41 So that's what we aim to influence
15:43 and what we aim to change.
15:44 - So it's really a matter of structural bias,
15:49 inequity caused by needing these sponsorships.
15:55 And once these athletes, to use your term,
15:59 these black cowboys are able to unlock
16:02 those sponsorship dollars,
16:04 the larger rodeos are welcoming,
16:08 the audiences are welcoming,
16:10 but it's a matter of unlocking that sponsorship money.
16:14 - To my understanding, that's exactly it.
16:17 I can't speak for the cowboys
16:19 that are competing professionally,
16:21 but the folks that I've talked to
16:24 and what I've learned over the 10 years of doing that,
16:26 that's the critical point,
16:30 is can I have capital to compete?
16:32 It's not talent and it's not acceptance, it's money.
16:37 It's money, that's the biggest barrier here.
16:41 - Yeah, okay, well then, we're almost out of time,
16:45 but wanted to ask one more question,
16:47 and that is, I referenced Beyonce, her new album,
16:54 and it is shining an even brighter light
16:58 on this black cowboy culture.
17:00 What is that doing?
17:02 Is that sort of disrupting in a good way?
17:06 Is it frustrating because this culture's been around
17:10 and she didn't discover it's been here?
17:15 Just tell me from your view what that's been like.
17:19 - I think it's incredible.
17:21 I'm really so glad that she's shining a light
17:26 on this culture in this way.
17:28 I love the title of the album.
17:30 I think it speaks to me using cowboy
17:33 as a gender neutral term.
17:34 I think her taking ownership of that is beautiful,
17:38 and I think it's gonna open a door
17:40 for a lot of other people.
17:41 I was listening to the country Western Station
17:44 in Portland the other day,
17:45 and they played that song for the first time
17:47 that I've heard them play it.
17:49 And that was the first time
17:50 that I've ever heard a black woman on that station.
17:52 And we turned it up and we swelled with pride
17:55 because we were just like,
17:56 what we've been doing for years
17:58 is now being illuminated at the highest level.
18:01 And that's remarkable.
18:03 There are other black country singers,
18:06 Mickey Guyton, Raina Roberts, Madeline Edwards,
18:10 that have been doing this for years.
18:12 And I hope that this opens up a lot of other people's ears
18:19 to these voices and to this level of talent
18:22 that's existed for a long time in this space.
18:25 - Yeah, well, now we are out of time.
18:28 Thank you so much for being here with us,
18:31 for making us a little bit more knowledgeable
18:34 about cowboy culture,
18:35 and specifically black cowboy culture.
18:38 Oh, and before we close out,
18:42 remind me, when is your new book, "Eight Seconds"?
18:45 What is it called?
18:47 - "Eight Seconds Black Rodeo Culture."
18:48 - And when does it come out?
18:49 - That comes out at the end of April.
18:52 It's a collection of the images
18:54 that I've captured over the last 10 years.
18:57 And I think it really will take you on that journey
19:00 that I've been on and kind of show you
19:02 a lot of these figures that I'm so proud to know.
19:06 - Yeah, well, thanks for being here.
19:07 Can't wait to take a look at your book.
19:10 - Yeah, thank you.
19:11 (air whooshing)
19:14 (air whooshing)
19:16 [BLANK_AUDIO]