Maroc-France : Une reconnaissance économique française implicite de la marocanité du Sahara - 11/04/2024

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MEDI1TV Afrique : Maroc-France : Une reconnaissance économique française implicite de la marocanité du Sahara
- 11/04/2024

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00:00 [Music]
00:11 Good evening, Mr. President.
00:12 A thorough diagnosis of the health of relations between Morocco and France
00:16 in this episode of "Questions d'Actu".
00:18 Yesterday, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the African Cooperation and of the Moroccan residents abroad
00:23 was warmly welcomed at the Orsay's Quai by his counterpart Stéphane Sejourné,
00:28 a week after the visit of the French Minister in charge of Commerce, Frank Riester,
00:34 under the theme "Mobilization of French investments in Morocco".
00:38 In the 12 regions of the Kingdom, a detail that is not insignificant.
00:42 His visit was a month and a half after that of his colleague in government,
00:46 the same Stéphane Sejourné in Morocco, who had sold himself, remember,
00:50 by a recognition that the Sahara was an existential issue for Morocco.
00:57 Another recognition, this time in an interview given to two French state channels,
01:02 after his meeting with Nasser Boudet-Tahir, the boss of the Orsay's Quai,
01:06 textually affirms that Morocco is becoming an affirmed regional power,
01:11 which must even allow to have a form of regional organization and also allow its stability.
01:18 It is up to the Moroccans to decide their agreements,
01:21 but I believe they have a will on their side to be able to forge links with their neighbors.
01:26 End of quote. He was answering a question about the Sahel.
01:29 In addition to Sejourné and Riester, the Ministers of the Interior, Economy and Culture
01:34 are also expected in the course of this month of April in Morocco.
01:38 How to interpret this multidimensional diplomatic ballet of the French government?
01:43 What would be the next steps towards a normal relationship between Rabat and Paris?
01:49 To answer these questions of actuality, I first receive on the set tonight
01:54 Professor Nézade Derdabi, an analyst in international strategy.
01:57 Good evening, Professor Derdabi.
01:58 Good evening Khadija.
02:00 Eid Mubarak.
02:01 Eid Mubarak to you, viewers, and also to your teams
02:07 who ensure the continuity of information on these holidays.
02:11 Naturally. Thank you very much, in any case.
02:13 Thank you, Professor Derdabi, for joining us here from Abu Dhabi.
02:17 Dr. Mohamed Badil Yatoui, Professor at the Collège de Défense Abu Dhabi.
02:20 Dr. Yatoui, thank you. Thank you for joining us.
02:23 You, to us. Eid Mubarak to you.
02:26 Good evening, Lai Barakfik.
02:28 Thank you very much. Eid Mubarak to you all.
02:31 Thank you very much.
02:33 And from Paris, the editorialist and political analyst, my brother, Mustafa Tosa.
02:39 Good evening.
02:40 Good evening, Khadija.
02:42 Eid Mubarak to you as well.
02:44 Thank you. Thank you to you too.
02:46 We are going to start this show, in any case, the first round of the table.
02:51 A comment, gentlemen, on this tweet of these days, of Stéphane, these days.
02:56 So, on, or in any case, following his meeting yesterday with Nasser Goreta, I quote,
03:04 "The relationship between Paris and Rabat is unique."
03:10 Comment, Professor Derdabi, on this tweet?
03:15 So, I think it's a reality.
03:18 It's a reality that doesn't date from today, but which is perhaps this sentence,
03:23 this remarkable tweet, in relation to the context.
03:27 We know the period, let's say, of light, which was slightly tense,
03:32 some tensions, following, moreover, a motion to the European Parliament,
03:38 which had been led by the same Stéphane, these days.
03:40 Absolutely.
03:41 Which had another cap at that time.
03:43 And so, I think it's even more symbolic, coming from him,
03:47 knowing that there was first of all this first visit of Stéphane, these days, to Morocco in February,
03:53 whose balance was a little mixed up.
03:55 We had seen a little, besides, it was illustrated even by, let's say,
04:02 the non-verbal language of the Minister, these days.
04:06 Why? Because Morocco was clearly waiting for a clear position.
04:10 Morocco has been clear for some time now, a few years,
04:14 and we were actually expecting, I would call it,
04:19 a position that is courageous and bold, and which must be done in this current context.
04:28 So, I think that everything we have seen now, the repetition of the visits of Mr. Riester,
04:36 the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and then this visit of Nasser Boretta in Paris,
04:42 I think that this is only the prelude to relations that will go on,
04:46 by arranging with many partnerships that we will discover in the coming days, in my opinion.
04:53 Dr. Madjid, a comment on this written relationship as unique.
04:59 What is the uniqueness of this relationship between Abba and Paris?
05:02 In fact, Stéphane, these days, as my friend Nisar Derdabi very well recalled,
05:07 has changed position and function.
05:09 And the function changes the man, in a way, we realize that.
05:12 There is also a context that is evolving slowly, but surely,
05:16 in any case, this is what we want on the Moroccan side, and I also have the impression that on the French side.
05:20 We see that the unique character of the relationship, as it has been underlined by the French Minister of Foreign Affairs,
05:27 refers to several things.
05:28 History, culture, immigration.
05:31 We have French populations in Morocco, a French community in Morocco,
05:35 a Moroccan community in France.
05:37 We also have a number of binationals, and all these people play a role, of course,
05:41 in the bilateral relationship.
05:43 They are actors that must be taken into account.
05:46 And there is a very particular relationship from a historical and diplomatic point of view.
05:51 The French also know the role that, for example, was played by His Majesty Mohammed V,
05:57 the Sultan Sidi Mohammed bin Youssef during the Second World War.
06:00 He was made Companion of the Liberation,
06:02 and he was the only one or one of the only foreigners to receive this famous decoration by General de Gaulle.
06:07 So Morocco and France have a very particular relationship.
06:10 These are intertwined stories that could go back to Louis XIV, for example,
06:14 and the Sultan Moulay Ismail.
06:16 So this unique character, it is good to remember it.
06:19 It does not allow us to make things more concrete,
06:22 and in particular on the priority of priorities, which is French recognition of the Moroccan identity of the Sahara.
06:27 But it also allows us to frame the discussion a little bit.
06:32 And it also shows that on the French side, after several months,
06:35 several long months of fairly cold relations,
06:38 there is an awareness of the different issues,
06:42 an awareness of the different priorities to have in terms of foreign policy
06:46 in the Maghreb region and on the African continent in the broad sense.
06:50 Speaking of priorities, precisely,
06:53 no communication from the Moroccan Ministry of Foreign Affairs and African Cooperation.
06:58 Dr. Badiliatchi, was the rush a bad advisor in this case?
07:05 It proves that there are two ways of seeing things.
07:08 There is the way, let's say, from Paris and the way from Rabat.
07:12 From Paris, there is a desire to get out of this period, let's say,
07:16 cold as soon as possible by communicating or perhaps even by over-communicating,
07:20 since we had the minister, the spokesman, etc., who expressed themselves.
07:25 On the Moroccan side, we take our time because the issues are not the same
07:30 on both sides of the Mediterranean.
07:32 On the French side, we want to show that we have understood what Morocco wanted
07:36 and that we therefore wanted to invest, to develop economically.
07:38 We will talk about it, I think.
07:40 And on the Moroccan side, we have a prerequisite, in a way,
07:44 which is the change of diplomatic position,
07:46 to go beyond a support for the autonomy plan, as has been the case since 2007,
07:51 to go further, to go either on the Spanish position or on the American position.
07:56 And here we see that this is what is blocking for the moment
07:59 and this is what is still a problem.
08:01 And Stéphane Sejourné on France 24 has a little rejected the responsibility
08:06 to President Macron by saying that it will be the head of state
08:09 who will have to discuss it with His Majesty,
08:12 and it will be at the level of heads of state.
08:14 So we see that we are still in a kind of between two,
08:17 which is obviously not convenient for Morocco.
08:20 And it remains to be seen whether the French position and the over-communication
08:24 that you mentioned, is it used to save time
08:28 or is it used to anticipate, or at least to dig a hole,
08:34 to create a path so that we can move towards this recognition
08:38 that Morocco and Moroccans have been waiting for for a very long time now.
08:42 Absolutely. Still, Mustafa Tosa, you mentioned,
08:45 Mohamed Vaziliati, yes, precisely, this communication,
08:48 this communication, quite important from the French authorities.
08:51 So there was this tweet, but also this interview given to RFI and France 24,
08:56 which, let's remember, are two media that depend on the French state,
08:59 not to mention the Quai d'Orsay,
09:01 and which means that there is still a layer, still today,
09:06 by the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
09:10 who speaks of an ambitious common roadmap
09:15 that we are now sharing with Morocco.
09:20 What is a comment on this?
09:23 And then, above all, we saw it, the French press
09:26 has widely commented on the visit of Nasselbole Tahir
09:31 and, in a much more global way, this French ambition
09:37 to make Morocco, or to put Morocco back on the front of the scene
09:41 as a reliable partner, especially in the economic area, but not only.
09:47 Yes, so, in my opinion, I would not dwell on the concept of unique,
09:52 the unique relationship between France and Morocco,
09:54 because it is a concept of communication,
09:57 and Stéphane Séjourné could very well apply it to any relationship
10:01 with any other country.
10:03 The relationship between the United States and France is unique.
10:06 Today, he spoke of friendship, when he met his Canadian counterpart,
10:10 it happened this morning, he spoke of a friendship,
10:15 of a friendship, of a friendly relationship.
10:19 I understand, but it is just to tell you that this concept of unique
10:23 is a bit, on the level of political and diplomatic communication,
10:26 it is a bit confusing.
10:28 The relationship between France and Germany is unique,
10:30 the relationship between France and Algeria is unique,
10:32 so the concept of unique, I will not dwell on it.
10:35 On the other hand, I would like to speak about the dynamic
10:39 that a minister like Stéphane Séjourné,
10:41 who was known for being the head of the parliamentary group
10:44 renounced by the European Parliament,
10:46 one of the anti-Moroccan activists in this parliament,
10:50 the dynamic that he has launched since his arrival in the Quai d'Orsay
10:54 and especially since his visit to Rabat.
10:57 And that is where I am not at all in disagreement with your guest on the set
11:03 when he says that the balance has been mixed up since his visit to Rabat.
11:07 It is not mixed up because it is in Rabat that he launched the decision
11:12 to support the economic development of the Saharan provinces
11:16 through French capital.
11:17 A few weeks later, the Quai d'Orsay validates
11:20 all its investment strategies of official French capital in the Sahara,
11:27 which means that Stéphane Séjourné announced it in Rabat
11:31 and it was translated by decisions and actions.
11:34 So for me, it was not a mixed balance,
11:38 it is a balance, it is a new page,
11:40 it is a new dynamic that has been launched.
11:42 Another thing, Stéphane Séjourné is someone who said
11:48 one thing as clearly as possible,
11:52 and this is what I do not stop repeating
11:54 throughout interviews and articles,
11:57 is that the official recognition of the Moroccan Sahara by France
12:03 will never come from the mouth of a minister,
12:06 a secretary of state or a spokesman.
12:08 It would only come from the mouth of the President of the Republic.
12:12 Because it is a major turnaround.
12:14 If France recognizes the Moroccan Sahara in the American way,
12:20 it will have an impact on the regional level,
12:22 it will definitively close the case,
12:26 it will have an impact on Algeria,
12:28 it will have an impact on European architecture,
12:30 because everyone will follow the French example.
12:33 So it is a major decision.
12:34 – But you say that it is not all that.
12:35 Besides, you have signed your last column on "Today, Morocco",
12:38 that the hardest thing is yet to be done.
12:40 Tell us more.
12:41 If you say that it does not depend on the members of the government
12:45 but on the head of state,
12:47 what is the hardest thing that remains to be done?
12:49 – So the hardest thing for me, and I have explained it,
12:51 is that this major French turnaround that is going to be made,
12:56 there will be no other option than French recognition,
13:00 it will be done in the same way…
13:01 – You are the one who says it.
13:03 Because if we base ourselves…
13:04 You said earlier that there was a mixed communication.
13:07 If we go with this logic, nothing really confirms
13:12 that there will possibly be a clear recognition,
13:18 without any equivocation, of the Moroccan identity of the Sahara
13:21 by the French authorities and by the head of state.
13:23 – There has already been, and everyone agrees on this,
13:26 and I believe that even the guests will see it,
13:29 there has already been a form of economic recognition
13:32 of the Moroccan identity of the Sahara.
13:33 From the moment the state gives the green light to invest,
13:37 it will not invest in the desert,
13:39 it will not invest in a "no man's land",
13:41 it will invest in a region under Moroccan sovereignty.
13:45 Now there remains political recognition.
13:47 I am not here to defend or to do the post-communication of Stéphane Séjourné,
13:53 he said it himself, he said it is a question,
13:55 and here I am decoding,
13:57 so important that it must intervene during a meeting
14:01 between His Majesty King Mohammed VI and President Emmanuel Macron.
14:05 It will come in what context, in what time,
14:08 in what conditions, it will be useful.
14:11 So why did I say that it was the hardest thing to do?
14:13 Because for the French, the hardest thing is to convince
14:16 the Algerian side of this turnaround.
14:19 And that is not an easy thing for French diplomacy,
14:22 for France, which had always treated the Algerian regime
14:28 by trying to make it understand that it is holding the stick by the middle.
14:33 Now it will have to explain to it that its file is definitively closed,
14:37 that there is a new geostrategic reality at work,
14:40 and that France will recognize the Moroccan identity of the Sahara.
14:45 And we have to expect a bad Algerian mood,
14:48 as it has been the case with Spain.
14:50 We have to expect that there will be teeth grinding,
14:52 we have to expect that there will be extremely strong tensions between Paris and Algiers.
14:58 And that is where the difficulty of the pedagogical and political freedom
15:02 that Emmanuel Macron will encounter to convince the Algerian regime of this new reality.
15:06 Yes, so you said it, bad moods and reactions that were quite harsh,
15:13 especially, we could read it in the Algerian press,
15:19 "a blow of thunder to please Morocco, France betrays Tebboune",
15:23 affirmed Deyene Algérie,
15:26 which also reminds us that the Algerian president is preparing a visit to Paris,
15:30 whose date has not yet been set, and that everyone is waiting.
15:34 Indeed, these reactions came, Professor Derdabi,
15:40 the day after the announcement of investments.
15:43 When we say investments, it would be good to stop at the nature of these investments.
15:47 Because yes, there are private investments that are existing today
15:52 in all the provinces of Morocco, including those in the south of the kingdom.
15:57 That being said, there is another element that comes into play.
16:01 I would like to explain the difference, and not to make the amalgam,
16:04 these are public investments.
16:06 Exactly.
16:07 So, from the French state.
16:08 Exactly. As you said, the difference lies in the fact that it is the French state
16:13 that is committed through these principles to public operators.
16:17 We still have no idea what these operators will be,
16:22 who will participate by contracts locally in the southern provinces.
16:29 We can imagine that it could be done in the energy sector.
16:33 We know that Total Energy, which is one of the most important companies in the French state,
16:38 has a lot of ambition in Africa for renewable energy,
16:43 which is a new sector in which the people in charge of Total Energy are working.
16:49 We know all the potential of the provinces of the Moroccan Sahara
16:53 regarding renewable energy.
16:56 So, I take for example the contract that will be,
16:59 which the media has been talking about for a few years already.
17:02 The X-Links contract, which will be aimed at connecting the Moroccan Sahara
17:07 through solar power plants with the United Kingdom,
17:10 and which is planned to meet the 8% domestic consumption needs of the United Kingdom.
17:18 We have also heard recently about the interest of Germany.
17:21 We know that all European countries have been, let's say,
17:27 somewhat worried about their energy security after the war in Ukraine.
17:31 All European countries depend largely on Russian gas and Russian oil.
17:37 So, this is an important axis.
17:39 There are other axes.
17:40 The BTP, we know that the port of Dakhla-Atlantik,
17:45 which will be the pendant of Tangier-Metz on the Atlantic front.
17:48 So, there are many projects.
17:50 And the French ambitions for the Atlantic?
17:52 So, no declared ambitions, but in my opinion,
17:56 this declaration was not made by chance.
18:00 I think there are contracts that are in the works behind the scenes.
18:03 And for me, I would join Mr. Tossa.
18:06 He does not agree with you, but at least you agree with him on some points.
18:11 On this point, for me, it is a recognition in half a word.
18:15 We cannot commit ourselves through public operators to develop...
18:19 First, there is a recognition of the fact that Morocco is developing the southern provinces.
18:23 So, that is an observation, I think, that all countries are making.
18:27 Almost.
18:28 Yes, well...
18:29 Except one.
18:30 We will not go back to that.
18:32 And so, it is a recognition in half a word,
18:35 because we cannot recognize economically that Morocco is making efforts.
18:41 And as Mr. Sejourné and Frank Kiriester said,
18:45 it is that France is ambitious to participate in this development.
18:50 So, the choice of words is very strong.
18:52 So, participate, what does that mean?
18:54 It means that this development will benefit the local population,
18:57 but it also means that there are economic interests behind it.
19:00 We will not be mistaken.
19:01 If France commits itself with its public operators,
19:03 it is because there are winning partnerships.
19:06 In all sectors.
19:07 When we talk about transport, maritime transport, with the port of Arla Atlantic,
19:12 it is very important.
19:14 France wants to position itself on this African hub,
19:17 undeniably that it will become an African hub of its size,
19:21 but also transport in all its forms, railways too,
19:24 for investments ahead of the 2030 World Cup,
19:28 which will also be held in Morocco.
19:30 In short, it is multidimensional.
19:32 You talked about energy,
19:33 I also wanted to specify that there are so many sectors
19:36 that neither the State nor the French private operators
19:40 want to miss the chance to take their share of the cake.
19:43 And knowing that we are going to talk about economic relations in Morocco-France,
19:48 it is that since 2013,
19:50 Spain has taken the first place of the first economic partner of Morocco,
19:55 which was the place of France since Morocco's independence.
19:59 And so the French are aware,
20:01 moreover, the message of His Majesty was clear in his famous speech,
20:05 where he said that the prism of strategic partnership in Morocco
20:10 with all its partners will be through the recognition of the Sahara.
20:14 So I think that France did not want to miss the chance,
20:17 knowing that other countries will get involved in this breach.
20:21 I talked earlier about the United Kingdom, the United States as well.
20:25 Absolutely, the American IDEs have exceeded for the first time last year.
20:29 And there really, it is concrete proof of the realization of this vision of His Majesty King Mohammed VI.
20:38 Indeed, Morocco is through its Sahara,
20:41 which sees, it is the prism with which it looks at its international relations.
20:45 It is very important, and here we see it with these American IDEs
20:48 which have exploded, especially in the southern provinces,
20:51 and which have exceeded the French.
20:53 And in my opinion, you talked a little about the reaction of the Algerian state media.
20:57 In my opinion, it is a test ball that has been made by France,
21:01 because we said it, France is trying to play,
21:05 especially with the arrival of Macron in power, a role of equilibrium.
21:09 We know the relationship between Morocco-France is unique,
21:13 Stéphane said it today, but the Algerian-France relationship as well,
21:18 through the whole memorial prism, through the historical prism,
21:24 the two French and Algerian communities,
21:29 but also the gas field, which is a very important field for France.
21:34 So I think that Macron, through this recognition in a nutshell,
21:39 is heading, I think, towards a political and diplomatic recognition of the Moroccan Sahara.
21:46 We are trying first to see what the Algerian reaction will be,
21:50 and I also think that the current timing has been very well studied.
21:54 I explain, President Tebboune and finally all the Algerian power
21:59 announced the advance of the election date.
22:02 You very well specified it earlier,
22:05 Macron, in agreement with Algerian diplomacy,
22:09 agreed on a date for President Tebboune's visit in France in October.
22:14 But since the date was announced in September, it will all be a mess.
22:18 How can we agree on a date for a visit,
22:22 and then we will say that France was a bit of a dindon of the force,
22:28 because by committing to a visit in October,
22:31 which was to precede the election in December,
22:34 France in a way gave a certain credibility to this head of state.
22:38 We know that in diplomatic use, etc.,
22:40 we try to avoid having meetings and agreements with a head of state
22:44 a few months before his election.
22:46 A question of electoral and democratic legitimacy.
22:49 So, already France had advanced, let's say, on this ground,
22:55 and I think that the fact that Macron, rather than Algeria,
23:00 is advancing his elections during this period,
23:04 Tebboune is in a position of weakness.
23:07 He does not have all the levers in hand.
23:09 I think his first priority is the elections and to get re-elected.
23:16 And I think the timing has been well chosen.
23:21 And what will happen next?
23:24 They will see what the reactions of Algeria are.
23:27 We know that if we take the parallel with Spain,
23:30 the Algerian reactions were very strong.
23:32 Well, after a year, a year and a half, relations returned to a stable position,
23:36 but all this is studied very closely by the diplomats of the two countries.
23:41 So, you talked about…
23:44 We will try to broaden the spectrum a little
23:47 to look at this strategic area outside the North African region
23:54 and to extend it to the MENA region, Mohamed Badi El Yatibi.
23:58 Among the investments that are very important in the kingdom,
24:03 there are those of the United Arab Emirates.
24:05 And I would like us to discuss with you this relationship,
24:10 precisely of cooperation, that exists between Morocco and the United Arab Emirates
24:15 and where Paris would position itself in this…
24:20 Because the partnership is not only economic,
24:22 it is just as historical as the one with France.
24:24 But here I would like to stop with you on this particular point.
24:28 It is France, Morocco, United Arab Emirates.
24:30 Of course.
24:31 So, the relationship between Morocco and the United Arab Emirates
24:33 goes back to the creation of the United Arab Emirates by Sheikh Zayed,
24:37 the Emir of Abu Dhabi and the father of the current president of the Emirates,
24:41 Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed.
24:43 And so, there was a relationship that was a very strong relationship
24:45 between Sheikh Zayed and His Majesty Hassan II, may Allah have mercy on him.
24:49 So, this strong relationship allowed the creation of a real multidimensional partnership
24:55 that was continued by the two current heads of state,
25:00 His Majesty the King Mohammed VI and the President Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed.
25:05 We saw with the royal visit to Abu Dhabi in December,
25:09 on December 4, that we were going to a new stage,
25:12 with a deepening of both investments and economic partnerships
25:18 and commercial and investment, as I said, within the kingdom
25:23 and in particular in the southern provinces, but not only,
25:25 but also the desire to work hand in hand on a number of African projects.
25:30 And that's where France is positioned,
25:33 since it has both the need to warm up its relations with the Kingdom of Morocco,
25:38 it has very good relations with the United Arab Emirates,
25:41 Macron and Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed have good relations,
25:45 but at the same time Macron has another problem,
25:47 which is a very deep problem for French diplomacy,
25:50 which is that of the countries of West Africa and particularly the Sahelian countries.
25:54 We know that there have been a number of problems with the Malian authorities,
25:57 the Burkinabe authorities and recently the Nigerian authorities.
26:02 So, there is a desire via Morocco and via the Emirates
26:06 not to find themselves completely out of play for Paris.
26:10 And as my two colleagues have said, the question of France's recognition
26:17 of the Moroccan identity of the Sahara will depend on Emmanuel Macron himself,
26:21 since it is the reserve domain of the President,
26:23 what is traditionally called the Chaband El Mas doctrine,
26:26 foreign policy and national defence.
26:28 And at that point, I think the Emirates, who made the gesture a long time ago,
26:33 since there is a consul in the Emirates in Lyon since the end of 2020,
26:37 and who have a very clear and constant support for the Moroccan identity of the Sahara
26:41 and territorial integrity, there will be a French will not to be completely out of play
26:47 and perhaps even to want to create in West Africa,
26:51 to want to create in the Sahel, projects of economic development and common investment,
26:56 not only France-Morocco, but France-Morocco-Emirates-Arab-United,
27:00 that is, tripartite agreements.
27:02 It remains to be seen whether this will be in the interest of both Morocco and the United Arab Emirates
27:07 to do so, under what conditions.
27:09 And of course, all this cannot be done without clear and firm diplomatic recognition
27:15 of the Moroccan identity of the Sahara, since the port of Dakhla,
27:18 the famous port of Dakhla, will have at that time a very important strategic importance,
27:23 such as the initiative that was promoted by His Majesty the King,
27:27 the initiative for the Sahel countries, and also the Atlantic initiative
27:32 that has existed for a few years now.
27:35 So, all these projects, if France wants to be part of them,
27:38 if it wants to take its feet again in these West African countries,
27:42 and we see that even a historic partner like Senegal had a political change a few weeks ago
27:47 and that it risks impacting the French-Senegalese relationship,
27:50 Morocco becomes, or at least becomes again,
27:54 Emmanuel Macron, if he shows pragmatism and realism,
27:58 realizes that Morocco is ultimately essential to have a real African policy again,
28:05 or at least to try to re-establish itself in Africa.
28:09 And the Emirates, they have this will, since they have often invested in the Horn of Africa,
28:14 for obvious geographical reasons, with a lot of success,
28:19 they now have the will, through their different sovereign funds,
28:23 such as Mubadala or Adia, for example, to invest in West Africa.
28:27 And at that time, they realize one thing,
28:29 that Morocco is an essential partner for historical, geographical reasons,
28:34 but also for trust relations between the two countries
28:37 and multidimensional partnerships that have existed for a number of years
28:41 and that will be deepened since the signing of the memorandums in December
28:46 between the two heads of state.
28:48 Absolutely, you just talked about this trust relationship,
28:51 and I think the banking sector is a striking example
28:56 of the political situation of France in Africa,
28:59 given the withdrawal of several French banks,
29:04 contrary to the Moroccan banking groups,
29:07 who really, literally, are the wind in the wind right now in Africa,
29:11 whether from the West, from the East or elsewhere,
29:14 and we see it, indeed, we are more likely,
29:16 Mustapha Tossa, towards a complementarity and not a competition relationship.
29:21 Yes, it is true that during the entire duration of the Franco-Moroccan crisis,
29:27 there were people who wrote analyses,
29:30 according to which the origin of this crisis
29:33 and this kind of innate jealousy on the part of the French,
29:38 who would see with a very bad eye the economic implementation,
29:42 the political and strategic relations that Morocco was building
29:46 with a region that, by a balance sheet effect,
29:50 rejected the French military presence in a number of Sahel countries,
29:55 the economic presence, and even a form of Francophobia of the French language.
30:01 So there was this balance sheet effect,
30:03 and some tried to explain the French bad mood by this situation.
30:08 Except that now, by a form of political realism,
30:12 quite French, through the statements of Stéphane Séjourné,
30:16 notably at RFI in France 24,
30:18 there is a recognition that Morocco is an extremely strong regional power
30:24 which is playing a role, which is rewriting the entire geopolitical equation of the region,
30:30 and that France would like to help and participate in this rewriting.
30:35 So there is no longer a question of competition,
30:39 of competition, or of underground animosity.
30:42 It is a question of putting your hand in your hand,
30:45 of embarking on common, structuring projects,
30:48 in a winning logic, of course.
30:50 Even the French capitalists who will come to invest in the Moroccan Sahara,
30:55 it is not for the good eyes of the Sahrawis,
30:58 nor for the good eyes of the people of the region.
31:01 It is also because there is money to be made,
31:04 there is profit to be made,
31:06 and so much better than economic strategies based on this.
31:10 It is better than ruptures and freezing cold.
31:15 So to return to the French position,
31:17 I believe that for once, the economy had preceded the politics.
31:21 In a crisis like this, generally there is a political agreement,
31:25 and then we try to translate this political agreement
31:28 by actions and economic projects.
31:31 In the case of the Moroccan Sahara with France,
31:34 we have the economic factor that precedes the politics.
31:37 But in the end, what it is about,
31:40 it is a placement of the French economic strategy with its political vision.
31:46 Because France, in the end,
31:48 has never militated, nor spoken, nor mentioned the birth of a sixth state in the Maghreb.
31:54 It has never shown any sympathy for the separatists of the police.
31:58 But it has never made formal recognition of the Moroccan Sahara.
32:02 So there really, it is from the opinion of all observers,
32:07 it is not me who says it,
32:08 it is the heavy ambiguity of French diplomacy and policy towards Morocco.
32:16 And that is what is being raised at the moment,
32:19 that is what is being done, little by little,
32:22 by specific steps.
32:25 By many visibles, we are waiting for Bruno Le Maire,
32:28 there is also Gérald Darmanin who will arrive incessantly,
32:31 Rachida Dati from the Department of Culture.
32:34 It is still a very important diplomatic step.
32:39 Khadija, I will give you an example of the evolution of the current situation in the relationship between France and Morocco.
32:47 If a few months ago, I was told that Stéphane Séjourné,
32:52 the man who was militating in the corridors of the European Parliament
32:57 to dirty the reputation of Morocco,
33:00 to try to draw its attention,
33:02 if I had been told that it was this man who would come to Rabat and Paris
33:06 to say that we are going to invest in the Moroccan Sahara
33:09 and that we are preparing a meeting between His Majesty King Mohammed VI
33:13 and Emmanuel Macron for the recognition of the Moroccan Sahara,
33:17 I would never have believed it.
33:19 Yet, the political and diplomatic logic is there.
33:22 There are evolutions, step by step.
33:24 France is slowly but surely clarifying its relationship.
33:29 The whole question is to know what agenda, what timing it will take.
33:35 Is it before the anticipated elections in Algeria on September 7th?
33:40 Is it after?
33:41 This is a real question that arises in terms of timing.
33:44 I was going to ask you the question, is it going to be after or before the announced visit,
33:50 but without further details, of the Algerian president,
33:54 who is leaving for Paris?
33:57 To answer this question, there is only one man today who has the answer.
34:01 It is Nasser Bouleta.
34:02 When he met Stéphane Séjourné,
34:04 he was in question, and everyone knows it,
34:06 he was in question of this visit, of this famous state visit of Emmanuel Macron in Morocco.
34:11 So, what did they talk about? What agenda did they discuss?
34:15 What did they discuss in terms of terminology, in terms of the framework, in terms of the announcement?
34:20 These are the people who were in the secret of the backdoor to give us the information.
34:28 But in any case, the dynamics are working.
34:30 It cannot go backwards.
34:32 This is what is important.
34:33 Above all, you were saying, precisely,
34:35 that it would have been believed that Stéphane Séjourné, who was leading this group, Renew,
34:39 within the European Parliament,
34:41 which was really, one can say, a war against Morocco and its interests,
34:46 that it would have been believed that the Director General of the Interior Security in France, Nicolas Nerny,
34:51 went to Morocco, it was in December,
34:54 to meet his counterpart, Director General of National Security and Territorial Surveillance, Abdelatef Hmouchi,
34:58 to discuss security issues.
35:02 And how does France view its relationship, its security partnership with Morocco?
35:10 Is it as unique as Stéphane Séjourné describes the relationship between the two countries, between Morocco and France?
35:17 I think that in the recent history of relations between Morocco and France,
35:21 this relationship has experienced a few cold blows, a few periods of tension, etc.
35:28 I recall the period with François Hollande, more recently as well,
35:34 but during all these periods when there was tension,
35:38 security cooperation in the field of intelligence has always been excellent.
35:43 I want to show you the Bataclan attacks.
35:46 I remind the viewers that it is through cooperation, through an exchange of intelligence,
35:53 through Moroccan intelligence services, that French police services were able to identify
35:59 who were the perpetrators of the terrorist cell that had committed the attacks,
36:03 but also to locate their location, which allowed the French police to intervene.
36:08 The operation was over, they were all killed after the intervention,
36:16 but all this to say that there has always been an excellent relationship of cooperation between the two services.
36:22 It was also following this operation that François Hollande took the initiative
36:27 to resume relations that are going in the right direction with Morocco.
36:31 For Gérald Darmanin, it should be remembered that at the time of his appointment as Minister of the Interior,
36:38 an attack had been carried out in Béziers,
36:41 thanks also to information that had been exchanged by Moroccan services with their colleagues from the DGSI.
36:48 All this to say that Gérald Darmanin is the best placed to know
36:52 how important it is to maintain good relations with Morocco in a context,
36:57 I remind you that for the French government, for Emmanuel Macron, the priority files currently,
37:04 there are two files mainly, it is the immigration file,
37:07 we remember the immigration law that was voted in January,
37:11 and the second file is to try to take up the challenge of organizing NGOs
37:18 in a context that is, on a security level, very dangerous.
37:23 Why? There was the last attack in Moscow by Daesh,
37:28 with the threat of the Islamic State, which we thought was contained,
37:33 we remember that the Islamic State had a territorial presence in Iraq and Syria,
37:39 they were chased, but they moved to the Sahel region, except that we did not think that...
37:46 But what would be the contribution of Morocco to ensure the security of these NGOs, according to you?
37:51 We have heard a lot about this, I would like to hear your analysis.
37:56 Concretely, what are the challenges that the French security services will be faced with?
38:02 First, a challenge to ensure the safety of visitors, VIPs and athletes,
38:08 against crime and delinquency of all kinds.
38:11 We remember that during the 2022 Champions League final,
38:15 it was a disaster on a security level.
38:19 I recall that during the course of the match,
38:22 many English fans were victims of attacks, etc.
38:28 It had tarnished the image of France.
38:30 So we expect first of all the crime and delinquency,
38:33 then there is the terrorist threat that is planning, we have talked about it, with Daesh,
38:38 with new vectors that can be used by terrorists, for example the use of drones.
38:45 There is also the explosive context of the massacres in Gaza,
38:50 which can constitute for all terrorist groups a vector or a lever on which they can call on jihadists
39:01 to carry out attacks in the model of what we call attacks of solitary warfare,
39:06 people who are not organized and who go either by means of white weapons,
39:11 improvised explosives, to carry out attacks.
39:15 So what are the gaps that have been identified by the French services?
39:19 They need support in terms of information.
39:24 They also lack security forces and intervention to maintain order.
39:31 And also, for example, everything that is synophilic teams.
39:34 So the synophilic teams are the explosive dogs,
39:37 explosive detectors that must be deployed in the sites where the sporting events will take place.
39:44 And I recall that the moment that will be the most critical for the GEO ceremony,
39:50 it is the opening ceremony that will be held for the first time in the history of GEOs,
39:55 in a public place open to everyone.
39:57 Outside the stadium.
39:59 On both banks of the Seine.
40:01 And we already know the Moroccan expertise.
40:05 The Qatar.
40:06 Exactly.
40:07 It is the latest in date.
40:08 There are many, but the latest in date is the Qatar World Cup.
40:11 Qatar had requested the help of the Moroccan security services,
40:14 and the number that was mentioned is 6,000 police officers,
40:20 probably from the intelligence services, to lend a helping hand to the Qatari authorities.
40:25 You mentioned earlier the migratory aspect, Mohamed Badi El Yachawi.
40:32 There is also this cultural aspect.
40:34 Let me explain.
40:36 There is this statue of the Imam, which was announced by Gérald Darmanin.
40:41 There have been many expulsions of Imams recently.
40:45 How could this constitute another area of cooperation,
40:51 especially on the formation of Imams?
40:54 Morocco has some experience in this regard.
40:57 And above all, this French position in relation to Islam in France,
41:03 knowing that there have been skids of the Paris mosque's rector recently.
41:09 Yes, this is a sensitive issue in France for obvious reasons.
41:16 For a number of years, there has been this desire to structure
41:19 what the various governments of the right, left and center have called "Islam of France".
41:25 We know that Gérald Darmanin, in addition to being Minister of the Interior, is Minister of the Cultures.
41:29 And so, this gives him a certain power,
41:32 and of course Emmanuel Macron, to organize, or at least try to organize, Islam in France.
41:39 The CFCM, which was created by Nicolas Sarkozy when he was Minister of the Interior more than 20 years ago,
41:44 has left room for the Forif, which was created by Emmanuel Macron and Gérald Darmanin.
41:49 So, we are no longer on an election system,
41:51 but on a system of nomination on the departmental basis by the prefects.
41:56 It is also a will of the State to better control what is happening locally.
42:01 And from a much more macro point of view,
42:04 there is the desire to cooperate with a number of States,
42:08 the first of which is Morocco.
42:10 Obviously, as you said, there is a know-how.
42:12 We remember that at the time of Hollande, Valls,
42:14 the Mohamed VI Institute had helped a lot in the formation of French Imams,
42:19 since the institute that exists in France, which is in Chateau Chinon,
42:22 does not form enough Imams, and it has been a problem for a number of years as well.
42:27 So, Morocco has a know-how.
42:29 It also has a religious diplomacy that exists vis-à-vis France,
42:33 but also vis-à-vis many other African countries,
42:36 and why not somehow also increase Moroccan influence through this prism.
42:43 And we see, little by little, with all the different subjects and sub-subjects
42:48 that we have addressed today,
42:50 that beyond geopolitics or French geoeconomy in Africa and Franco-Morocco,
42:56 there are also a whole bunch of subjects that are migratory,
42:59 security or cultural, which are obviously at the heart of bilateral cooperation
43:05 and relations between the two countries,
43:08 and which cannot be swept away with one hand.
43:11 And we have this need, both on the French side and on the Moroccan side,
43:16 to try to continue working together,
43:19 despite the problem that remains permanent,
43:22 to know whether we are going towards a real explicit recognition
43:27 or whether we are content with an implicit recognition through the economy.
43:31 But to answer your question, we see that Morocco has a capacity
43:37 and also a possibility, due to its expertise, its credibility
43:41 and also its particularity in the organization of Islam
43:47 and in the dissemination of Islamic values that it has always promoted throughout its history,
43:52 the ability to play a very important role with France,
43:56 which knows well the problems to structure Islam in this country
43:59 and often also which helps certain populist temptations,
44:03 whether from governments, certain media or certain media or intellectual personalities.
44:09 Another example of a successful multidimensional cooperation
44:16 between Morocco and Spain.
44:21 With this statement yesterday by the President of the Spanish Government,
44:25 in front of the deputies, it was at the Congress,
44:28 who congratulated him on the excellence of cooperation relations
44:32 with Morocco in all areas.
44:35 Let's listen to the intervention of Pedro Sanchez.
44:38 From the point of view of the control of migratory flows,
44:41 we have strengthened our financial and police collaboration.
44:44 We have strengthened our financial and commercial police cooperation with Morocco
44:48 during our official visit last month in Rabat.
44:51 Since my accession to the Presidency of the Government in 2018,
44:54 the Spanish exports to Morocco have not ceased to progress
44:57 to reach 12 billion euros in 2023,
45:00 which is 40% more than in 2018.
45:02 We are the first supplier of Morocco,
45:08 which represents for Spanish companies an exceptional growth potential
45:12 with great projects in the areas of renewable energies,
45:15 water management and transport communications infrastructures.
45:21 I think that the prosperity of Morocco will be shared with our country.
45:26 We also maintain an excellent cooperation with the Moroccan authorities
45:29 in the area of fighting terrorism, in the area of migratory flows management
45:33 and in the fight against human trafficking.
45:36 This cooperation continues to a cultural level,
45:38 as illustrated by the growth of the Servantes Institute
45:41 and the common celebration that we will share in 2030
45:44 with Portugal and Morocco at the World Cup.
45:48 Mr. Tafatosa, you who analyze the background,
45:54 the context of such interventions,
45:58 yes, it is a reaffirmation of the solidity of relations between Rabat and Madrid,
46:05 made by the head of state yesterday,
46:08 but above all, the context.
46:11 And in front of the Congress,
46:13 Pedro Sánchez congratulates himself on the excellence of his relations,
46:17 knowing of course the context of the Spanish Congress today.
46:20 Yes, it is true that we can qualify this speech of Pedro Sánchez
46:25 as a stage speech or a speech of assessment.
46:28 In fact, he is making the assessment of a Spanish strategy towards Morocco.
46:35 He has made excellent results for Spain,
46:38 on the economic level, on the level of security cooperation,
46:41 on the level of the fight against immigration, on the level of the fight against drug trafficking.
46:47 So, in front of the national representation, Pedro Sánchez says to the Spaniards,
46:52 "I am right to have invested in Morocco
46:55 and I am right to have changed my vision of this Moroccan-Spanish crisis."
47:02 He is displeasing to some, even if it does not please a fraction of this same Spanish Congress of deputies.
47:09 Precisely. So, the message was double, in fact.
47:12 The message was double.
47:13 The one addressed to pockets of "resistance" who are Spanish,
47:18 especially from the far right,
47:19 who always want to feed a form of animosity towards Morocco.
47:24 To those, he says, "There will be no turning back, and it is like that and not otherwise."
47:29 This is the Spanish domestic message, but it is also the regional message.
47:33 Because, in fact, he also says to the Maghreb, to the Maghreb countries,
47:36 especially in Algeria, "It is not worth dreaming,
47:38 to continue dreaming of a return or a step back from the Spanish government."
47:43 I say and I repeat, "We made the right choice to invest in Morocco and to change our policy."
47:50 But I, Khadija, if you allow me, I would like to come back to make a small comment,
47:55 because it is very important, on the visit of Gérald Darmanin in France, in Morocco.
48:01 In Morocco, in Morocco.
48:02 It is written, especially on the 20th of this month,
48:04 and it is one of the most important visits after that of Stéphane Séjourné,
48:08 Frank Riester, Bruno Le Maire,
48:10 and possibly a visit in preparation of Rachida Dati,
48:14 Rachida Dati, the iconic personality of the French-Moroccan relationship.
48:19 But, Gérald Darmanin, why is it important?
48:21 Not only because he manages the security issue that interests everyone,
48:27 that interests both Morocco and France,
48:29 not only because he manages the cultural issue that interests France and Morocco,
48:33 but at one point or another, the relationship between Gérald Darmanin and Morocco
48:37 was not a long, peaceful river.
48:40 And some analyses attributed Emmanuel Macron's Algerian troupism
48:47 to the excess of influence that Gérald Darmanin, of Algerian origin,
48:52 had on President Macron.
48:56 So, in fact, when he came to Morocco,
48:58 he reconciled himself spectacularly with the Moroccans,
49:03 and he launched, in his own way, because we must not forget that
49:06 Gérald Darmanin will leave his position as Minister of the Interior
49:10 after the Olympic Games, and he will prepare for the French presidential election,
49:14 which will take place in 2027.
49:16 So, he has every interest in having Morocco as an ally, as a friend,
49:20 and hence this meeting between Gérald Darmanin and Morocco,
49:25 which will be extremely interesting to observe
49:28 in terms of political expression, in terms of commitments and in terms of exchanges.
49:32 – That's it for this show.
49:35 I would like to reiterate my thanks to my dear speakers.
49:38 First of all, to you, dear Professor Dardaby,
49:40 thank you very much for enlightening us on the importance of certain details,
49:45 very significant, in this relationship between Rabat and Paris.
49:50 Thank you very much.
49:51 – Thank you.
49:52 – And thank you too, Mohamed Badiliati, always a pleasure.
49:55 – A pleasure to share, thank you very much. See you soon.
49:58 – See you soon, God willing.
50:00 Thank you too, and we will follow, of course,
50:03 this diagnosis will be made again, of the relations between Morocco and France,
50:08 certainly with you. Thank you, dear colleagues.
50:10 – Thank you, Khadija, see you soon.
50:12 – That's it, this is the end of this show.
50:13 Have a very good evening, everyone.
50:15 [Music]