Leeds & Baggies games assessed, Watson & Young futures, women's title run-in
Category
🥇
SportsTranscript
00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast.
00:21 James Copley here joined by Phil Smith.
00:23 Phil, how are you doing, mate?
00:26 >> Yeah, cold.
00:27 It doesn't really feel like April and spring to me at the moment.
00:32 I'm very, very chilly.
00:33 But other than that, all fine, ready for some hot takes.
00:37 >> It's very sunny outside, but it is actually quite chilly, you're right, Phil.
00:42 >> It's the wind in it.
00:43 It's the wind, man, it ruins everything.
00:45 It's my least favorite of the elements.
00:49 >> Right, we are 50 seconds in and we've already gone on a massive tangent,
00:55 but there we are.
00:56 There we are.
00:57 Right, so football, which is what we are here to discuss.
01:00 We're going to get on to talking about the Leeds United and
01:02 West Brom games, Mike Dord's.
01:04 We'll talk about Tommy Watson and his form for the under 21s and
01:08 some more general thoughts on Sunderland's youngsters,
01:11 including Matt Young, who's worked wonders out on loan at Darlington.
01:14 But Phil, I wanna start with Sunderland women who have two massive games coming
01:18 up against Charlton and Crystal Palace.
01:21 If they win both of those, they get promoted from the championship to the top
01:25 division in the United Kingdom, which is an incredible place to be really.
01:30 Had you asked us if we thought this could happen last summer,
01:34 we probably would have said no, it's a monumental achievement by Mel Rea.
01:38 >> It is, yeah.
01:40 I mean, you made it sound very similar, a little bit of context to these last two
01:45 games and that obviously they play Charlton on Sunday who are third.
01:48 And then the last game of the season,
01:50 they're away at Crystal Palace who are currently top.
01:52 I mean, it's fantastic for the division and it's gonna be a great spectacle really.
01:57 Sunday is a huge game because Crystal Palace probably played their toughest
02:02 remaining game of Sunderland on Sunday against Birmingham and beat them,
02:06 which I think was a massive result because Birmingham, I think,
02:09 were probably most people's favorites of the division going into the start of the season.
02:13 So that was a big result for Palace, which puts them two points ahead of Sunderland.
02:17 They play away at Lewis on Sunday.
02:20 Lewis is second bottom, so they expect Palace to win.
02:23 So realistically, I think Sunderland need to beat Charlton at home to then go into
02:27 the last game of the season away at Palace with a two point deficit,
02:31 basically knowing that they need to win and take the title.
02:33 So I think Sunday is a huge game.
02:35 I think they probably need to beat a strong Charlton side.
02:38 But having said that, there's absolutely no reason I think they can't go and do that.
02:42 They have, as you said, overachieved really all season.
02:46 And I think it's just it's all been about the recruitment to a large extent.
02:51 I think what we've always known is that Sunderland are very,
02:56 very good at producing young players and a lot of the team this season
03:01 are, you have kind of the core of those young players in place.
03:05 But what Malray did and Steph Levy did astonishingly well last season was just recruit.
03:10 They were obviously given a little bit more latitude by the fact that they could hand out
03:13 some professional contracts for the first time, which enabled them,
03:17 enabled Mel and Steph really to use their contacts in the game.
03:20 And you look at players like Katie Kitchen, Jenna Deer, you know,
03:23 you could go on and on really and it's been a remarkable turnaround.
03:27 I think the nice thing for me is like, it feels like because a lot of these players
03:32 as they're contracted for next year as well, I actually feel like even if it doesn't happen
03:36 in the next couple of weeks and hopefully it does, I feel like there's some pretty decent foundations.
03:42 You know, some of the young players are going to go on and move on to professional contracts this summer.
03:46 Someone like Katie Watson, for example.
03:48 So there's some really like strong foundations there. Really exciting couple of weeks
03:53 and there's no reason to think that they won't get the job done
03:57 because they've overachieved and sort of proved everybody wrong all season.
04:00 But I think what's nice is that we can be really sort of enthusiastic about next year regardless.
04:05 And obviously the one other thing we should mention is that winning the league
04:09 doesn't necessarily mean you play in the Super League next year.
04:12 Someone will have to earn a license to play in the Super League based on investment facilities
04:18 and that's going to be a fair piece of work for the club
04:21 and it's going to require pretty significant backing from the ownership.
04:25 So I would make that point as well. I'm very hopeful that would be the case
04:29 because they have backed the team so far to get to where they were,
04:32 which is why they've been able to recruit those players I mentioned.
04:34 But obviously it's not quite as straightforward as sort of win the league
04:37 and you play against the big teams next year.
04:40 There will be a pretty stringent process in place and hopefully if it does come off,
04:46 the club will have put everything in place to make sure they can go and play at that level.
04:50 But it feels like the future is pretty bright either way, which is nice.
04:54 Given what we've seen from Kiri Louis-Dreyfus and this ownership on and about Sunderland women,
04:59 you would expect him to commit if Sunderland did get promoted?
05:02 Phil, just throw it forward a little bit.
05:06 You would hope so. I mean, I think to be fair,
05:09 much of that licensing process will already have been underway.
05:14 It's something that kind of runs towards the end of the season.
05:16 So all the sort of background work will be getting done now.
05:21 But ultimately it'll be Kirill and Juan who sort of sign off on that, if you like,
05:27 because the reality is that Sunderland going into the Super League will be,
05:31 I would imagine you'd be expecting to incur pretty significant losses at that level.
05:36 Because of the way the game's changed.
05:38 So it would take a big commitment from the ownership,
05:41 but it's one that they simply have to make because it's one where you kind of,
05:45 you're speculating to accumulate really,
05:47 because the entire prospect of the women's side of the club will be transformed by being at that level.
05:53 When you think of the broadcasting, the exposure and the long term really,
05:57 in terms of A, giving the young players in the squad now the chance to test themselves at that level,
06:03 is going to stand them in really good stead for the future.
06:06 And also B, in terms of growing the game within Sunderland and within the region,
06:11 you know, having Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal,
06:14 these teams come into we're your side next season,
06:17 it's going to be such a huge, potentially a huge boost to sort of growing the interest in the game,
06:24 growing the attendances. And that's what ultimately will turn it into a sustainable operation in sort of 10 years time,
06:29 if that makes sense.
06:30 So I'm really hopeful there will be that sort of long sightedness.
06:35 Is long sightedness a word? Is that the option? I know short sightedness is a word.
06:38 We'll make another word to do.
06:40 Long sightedness. Anyway, yeah, I would like to think that that will be in place.
06:47 But I think if Mel Rae could hear us, she would be saying, hang on,
06:51 we've got two really difficult games to play first.
06:53 Let's not get carried away. And Palace have been pretty exceptional all season.
06:59 You know, you have to look at their goal difference to see how good a team they are and some of the results they've had.
07:04 So yeah, hopefully we can get three, you know,
07:07 sort of the home support can help get three points against Charlton.
07:12 And then to be fair, you know, if you take it to the last day, you never know, do you?
07:15 Yeah, you absolutely never know. All it takes is one to win the goal, a set piece, anything.
07:19 So yeah, I'm really looking forward to see how they do.
07:23 And yeah, I really, I think the ownership would back them if they won.
07:28 And I think it would be bitterly disappointing if they didn't.
07:31 But you know, let's hope they have that decision to make,
07:33 because someone's going to win the next two games.
07:36 You mentioned her there, but a quick word for Mel Rae as well,
07:38 who just continues to be a brilliantly shrewd operator at this level.
07:42 I've lost count of how many rebuilds she's had to sort of take on at Sunderland with various different factors.
07:49 We spoke quite a bit in the summer. There was high profile departures in terms of Neve Herron.
07:52 There was players leaving for Newcastle, maybe slightly worried.
07:56 Obviously, Sunderland recruited well, but a lot of that is down to her.
07:59 I know the club's sort of operation has expanded a little bit.
08:02 She's got a bit more help now, but I think we're really seeing the fruits of that.
08:06 And of her expertise, she's superb at this level.
08:09 Oh, 100 percent. And you're absolutely right in what you say, in the sort of expanded operation.
08:15 We have definitely seen the benefits this season.
08:17 So some of the more, the bigger coaching staff, some of the specialist coaches,
08:23 there's now a full-time goalkeeping coach, which you only have to look at what a season
08:27 Claudia Moan's had, for example, to see how these little things can make an absolutely huge difference.
08:32 But we shouldn't also be under any illusions about the fact that,
08:36 you know, while the women's team have been integrated behind the scenes at the Academy,
08:41 there is obviously still a disparity in funding and investment and in resources.
08:46 And especially in recruitment. I mean, this squad has been built by Mel Rae,
08:52 their assistant. It's not the sort of, they don't have access to the scouting network,
08:57 to the same level of data analysis at all.
08:59 It's about Mel's sort of mouse and about the contacts in the game, really.
09:03 And I don't think anyone would disagree with me when I say that it's something to have been immensely fortunate
09:09 to have Mel at the helm through the tricky times, really.
09:14 And she's been the perfect person to sort of lead the rebuild this season.
09:18 I think what's exciting as well, I've mentioned a few times about moving ahead to next season,
09:22 is that what we're actually seeing as well, is we're starting to see a real playing style emerge.
09:27 I think because of the disparity in resources to some of the other teams in the division,
09:32 I think Sunderland were a sort of defence first team for quite a long time.
09:36 They were very dependent on set pieces, which made sense.
09:39 That's how they were going to get results against other teams.
09:41 But what we're actually seeing is as the youngsters develop and as the new signings settle,
09:45 as the season's gone on, some of them become more and more aggressive.
09:48 They're so much better on the ball than any time I've really seen when I've been following them
09:54 for the sort of last three, four years.
09:56 So what's encouraging to me is like, yeah,
09:58 there's a real development there that I'm pretty confident and hopeful will sort of last into next season,
10:05 whatever happens in the next couple of games.
10:07 It's a really exciting time to follow the team.
10:10 And if anyone's sort of wavered or hasn't been, Sunday, you know,
10:13 there'll never be a better time to really, because it's going to be a good game against a very high-caliber opposition
10:18 and everything's on the line.
10:20 You know, Charlton, we talked about something, Charlton have to win to stay in the race as well.
10:24 So, yeah, it should be some occasion, I think.
10:27 Yeah, and it is a really, really good atmosphere up at Ebbleton for a big game where the women are concerned.
10:33 I was there for the River Weir derbies.
10:35 It's now known against Durham, which was an absolutely cracking game, 5-3.
10:38 I think there was over 2,000 people there and it was superb.
10:42 There's going to be, you know, the flags from the new flag group as well there, this on Sunday.
10:46 So, yeah, looking forward to that one.
10:48 We'll move on to Sunderland men's.
10:51 We've had a draw against Leeds and a win against West Brom, Phil, both away from home.
10:57 Both systems deployed by Mike Dodds were five at the back.
11:01 We've seen a little bit of a tweak, but really important, I think, to have those performances away from home against good opposition.
11:08 It's sort of come full circle for him in a way, hasn't it, given his first stint earlier this season as interim head coach.
11:16 But pleasing for those away fans, I think, to be repaid with two really strong performances.
11:22 Yeah, and I think that was kind of Mike Dodds' main point, actually.
11:25 We spoke a bit on the whistle, didn't we?
11:28 Was it after the Leeds game, about how we did feel that whatever people's opinions on Dodds' performance were,
11:34 or his future in the coaching staff, and we discussed the potential challenges of somebody new coming in and inheriting Dodds.
11:43 But what we both said was we do really feel from our dialogue with Dodds and our experiences
11:48 that he's someone who does kind of get the club and get the supporters.
11:52 And I think one of the things he was really strong on after both games was, you know,
11:56 it's not a time for experimenting.
11:58 And ultimately, I want to be respectful of the fact that even after everything that's gone on,
12:03 we've got two sold-out away ends, you know, going up against two teams who,
12:07 let's be honest, if someone hadn't been on it, could really have put them to the sword.
12:11 And so I do think it was kind of refreshing.
12:13 It was kind of encouraging for me to hear him say that we do want to be more free-flowing.
12:18 This isn't kind of really where we want to be as a team in terms of the set-up and certainly the quality and possession.
12:25 So I think I would have been more concerned if he hadn't said that, if you like,
12:29 because I'd be kind of thinking, well, that's great.
12:30 You've got four points, but this isn't really how you're going to get promoted next season.
12:35 So I kind of was encouraged and respected the fact that he said, look, you know,
12:39 this isn't exactly how I want the team to look.
12:41 I don't think the players quite want the team to look.
12:44 But from where we were, especially after the Blackburn game,
12:47 we needed to put a bit of pride in the shirt and we needed to give the away fans,
12:52 you know, something to be proud of, basically. And they did that.
12:55 You can't say that they didn't do that. In both games,
12:58 the application was spot on. The organisation was very good.
13:03 I did think the first half against West Brom was pretty poor up until the red card.
13:08 Like, it was not a great watch. Leeds,
13:11 I thought was a lot better performance because they actually did have a bit of a threat,
13:15 even if they were kind of sitting off for the most part. I did think on the break,
13:18 they looked quite dangerous. That wasn't really the case at West Brom up until the red card.
13:23 The second half, they managed it really well.
13:25 So I think you've got to give a lot of credit to Dodds.
13:28 And I don't really have any major qualms with the approach
13:32 because I think it was the right thing for the circumstances.
13:35 And like I say, if you know, the mood was, oh, this is what we're going to do now.
13:39 Like, this is going to be how we play moving forward. I think I'd have some reservations.
13:43 But, you know, even looking at the fixture list coming up,
13:46 I think we'll start to see a bit of a shift from Sunderland.
13:50 And I think, you know, you've got to, there was a need,
13:53 I think, to put a bit of pride back in the shirt after the Blackburn game.
13:56 And fair play, you know, they've done that.
13:58 And if we're honest, at the start of the week,
14:00 if someone had said four points from Leeds and West Brom away,
14:04 I actually don't, probably would have not believed that.
14:06 So obviously it's kind of sobering because we all want Sunderland to be competing for the top
14:12 and you don't really feel comfortable saying, oh, well, if we get a winning draw, then that's good.
14:16 But objectively from West Sunderland, it was a good result.
14:20 And so I don't think you can quibble too much really.
14:24 What I liked about Dodds from the post-match to the Leeds game was that he came out into a press room
14:30 full of people who were probably ready to praise him for getting a point against sort of title-chasing Leeds,
14:36 a way at Ellen Roan after such a bad run of form.
14:38 And he actually came out and said, well, you know, this club shouldn't be celebrating a point.
14:42 It should always be moving forward. I thought that was quite impressive from him, Phil.
14:47 Yeah, definitely. And that's what I was getting back to you before,
14:49 in terms of I do feel with Dodds, you've got someone who sort of understands the club
14:54 and understands the expectation and doesn't sort of shy away from it either.
14:58 You know, he doesn't, he's not someone who's going to come out and talk about the negativity
15:02 or the pressure or from the fan bases, which is something that we have heard kind of over the years.
15:09 I think he totally gets that it's sort of a privilege to be leading the team
15:13 and to be, you know, to be part of the area in the club.
15:16 And that's something which I've got a lot of time for.
15:19 And as you say, I thought you pitched that perfectly when he sort of came in,
15:22 knowing that he probably could have come and said, given this,
15:25 you know, what we've had over the last few months, looking at how much leads this team costs,
15:29 like, isn't it amazing that we've got a draw? And it was impressive,
15:33 but it wasn't amazing because it's Sunderland and the Championship,
15:35 so they should never be like soaking up too much praise for getting a nil-nil draw, you know?
15:40 So I thought you were right. I thought you pitched that perfectly.
15:43 And I think you also have to acknowledge that for most of his tenure,
15:48 he's been pretty unlucky with injuries and availability.
15:51 And it's no coincidence, really, that now he's starting to get a few bodies back.
15:55 Things are starting to improve a little bit,
15:57 but there's no doubt about it. We're looking for a strong finish now.
16:00 And we certainly want to see a Sunderland in the next few games,
16:04 especially the two home games, that gets on the front foot and tries to get us off our seats a little bit.
16:09 But from what he's said so far, you know, I'm very hopeful that's going to be what we get.
16:14 So, you know, there is now a little bit of a chance to,
16:18 I wouldn't say build a feel-good factor because that's clearly too strong,
16:22 given the way the season's sort of come undone.
16:24 But there is definitely a chance to send us all into the summer feeling a little bit lighter
16:28 and a bit more optimistic. And fingers crossed they can sort of go and grasp that.
16:33 - I guess the million pound question, Phil, which we've sort of alluded to during our
16:39 On The Whistle videos after games, which are available on YouTube,
16:42 if you want to go back and have a watch or a listen of them,
16:45 is where does Mike Dodds fit into Sunderland after the summer
16:49 and who's going to be preferred to come in? It's a really, really interesting question.
16:53 - Yeah, I think it's fairly well established what's going to happen.
17:00 He will stay, I think. He was asked by one of the national reporters after the game at West Brom about it.
17:08 And it was probably the most open he's been on it, really, just in terms of, you know,
17:12 basically saying first and foremost, he's going to have a break.
17:17 And then, yeah, he expects, as far as he's aware, to return as part of the coaching staff.
17:22 And I think every indication we've had from the club, really, is that they still plan,
17:27 you know, they want to stick to that plan. When Christian Speighton was asked at the Support
17:31 Collective meeting last month about, you know, whether the, what the plans would be for the coaching staff moving forward,
17:36 he made pretty clear that whoever came in would be able to make, you know, bring someone with them.
17:42 But they would be expected to work with the coaching staff that are in place.
17:45 It's very obviously the view of the Sunderland hierarchy that for the players and the playing style,
17:50 it's important to have some continuity. And it definitely is a fair question about whether some of the bigger names
17:57 or the kind of top-caliber coaches would be comfortable coming into an environment
18:02 with much of their coaching staff already set for them. I completely get that and it's a fair argument.
18:07 But the reality is, is I think the Sunderland remain very invested in Dodds.
18:11 And, you know, I don't see any scenario really in which he's not part of the coaching group next season.
18:18 You know, he has said that he's very comfortable with the fact that whoever comes in is going to bring someone with him.
18:24 He said that was never an issue for him and never would be.
18:26 You know, he said that he expected Michael Beal to do the same.
18:29 You know, it wasn't his decision that that didn't happen.
18:31 It was just something that never, I assume,
18:33 it's just because he wasn't there long enough to get around to, to be quite honest with you.
18:38 So I think we have a clear idea of what's going to happen.
18:40 I think Dodds will stay as part of a, you know, a 4-5 strong coaching team.
18:45 The question is, is whether that has any impact on Sunderland's search, you know,
18:49 and whether it has any impact on who they want to get. That's the bit where we have an unknown.
18:55 I don't think we have much of an unknown over Dodds' future himself.
18:58 And the other thing he said in, you know, the pre-match press conference was he also,
19:02 we obviously knew this would be the case, but, you know,
19:04 he is in the meetings at the moment looking ahead to the summer and not the,
19:08 as sort of the final say by any stretch of the imagination.
19:11 I think he'd be the first to tell you that he has very much not the final say on things.
19:16 But, you know, the fact that his input is being sought and is being listened to
19:20 and he's feeding into those early recruitment meetings and what happens,
19:25 I think that tells you everything you need to know really.
19:29 Is there an argument to suggest, Phil, and this isn't the fault of Mike Dodds at all,
19:33 but when the new man is appointed as Sunderland's new head coach,
19:38 you could sort of see the first time he hits a sticky patch
19:42 or goes through a questionable run of form,
19:44 then there's always the sort of Mike Dodds spectre lurking in the background
19:47 because he's taken the team so many times. Again, that's not on Mike Dodds at all.
19:53 But it's an interesting sort of subplot going forward, isn't it?
19:57 Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's totally fair.
20:00 And as you said, it's not on Mike Dodds.
20:02 I've got to be honest, he's a very personable, diligent sort of character from all my dealings with him.
20:09 So I don't think it kind of should be an issue, if you like, but it will be.
20:14 Like, it's just obvious that it will be,
20:16 especially because of the fact that he has a long-standing connection to Christian Speakman,
20:19 which again is not his fault, but it's just a reality.
20:22 So I think if you were looking at the job from the outside,
20:25 you would definitely have those reservations. I think that's only human nature, really.
20:30 So I am interested to see how that sort of shakes out in terms of how that will impact the candidate to the job.
20:38 But I suppose the flip side of that is that the game is changing.
20:43 Like, we talked about this a lot with Alex Neil.
20:47 Like, if you want to be in charge of your entire backroom staff and decide exactly who that's going to be,
20:54 if you want to have final say on transfers, if you want to sort of set the football policy,
21:00 to be honest, there are very few jobs left for you now.
21:03 Like, some are not acting wildly out of the norm on this anymore.
21:08 Like, this is, if anything, it's become even more the norm since they started doing it when Louis Dreyfus and Speakman still came in.
21:15 So while I think it's like a totally valid point, I think we also sometimes can be a little bit in,
21:21 I can certainly get into a little bit of a Sunderland bubble.
21:24 And when you sit back and look at it, you think, well, actually, this kind of thing is happening right across the game.
21:29 So I do have my reservations about it, especially because I do feel there's a balance.
21:34 I get the continuity argument. You don't want to overhaul things every time you change a new head coach.
21:38 Which was a massive problem for Sunderland and the Premier League, for instance.
21:41 Yeah, it absolutely was. The flip side of that is that, to me, like,
21:44 Mike will be able to be pretty isolated most of the time he was here.
21:48 And maybe some of the stuff we criticised him for, the press conferences and stuff,
21:52 maybe he missed someone who he really trusted who could, you know, have a word with him and say,
21:57 yeah, and say, like, not sure about it. Do you know what I mean? That's me speculating, to be honest.
22:03 You know, when you're, when you're, when your back's up against the wall and you're alone,
22:07 you're more sort of likely to come out swinging anyway, aren't you?
22:10 Yeah, definitely. I think you're more likely to feel sort of insecure.
22:15 So I do think there's a really difficult balance to be found.
22:18 But yeah, so going back to your original question,
22:21 I definitely think it would be a factor in all these discussions that they're having with these head coaches.
22:25 But again, it's like the weird thing about sort of what someone say,
22:33 the kind of head coach that we've expected Sunderland to eventually go for is the kind of head coach
22:39 who's probably already works in this kind of environment.
22:42 And that's why it would sort of make sense if that makes sense.
22:46 But what we haven't really seen, especially with the Bale one,
22:48 someone didn't really follow through on what we expected.
22:51 Yeah, yeah. So that was, that was why the whole thing was just really weird.
22:54 But I guess my point, the point I'm making is the kind of candidates that I would expect Sunderland to go for
23:00 because of what they say they want, which is someone maybe more with an issue with a coaching background, etc.
23:05 etc. is that you would think they would be relatively comfortable with this kind of thing
23:09 because that's what they've already been exposed to.
23:13 But you just, it's weird because I think the Bale thing is like shaking a lot of people's confidence, right?
23:17 I think that's the fundamental thing here, which is even if you disagreed with certain decisions
23:22 that have been made in the past, not signing the strike or last deadline deal,
23:25 not giving Alex Neil a new contract, etc. etc.
23:28 I think there was this understanding of, well, whatever my opinions on it, there is a plan here.
23:34 And, you know, and the plan has some sound foundations and that's, you know,
23:40 the Bale thing I think is really shaking people's sort of conviction in it and that side of it.
23:46 And that's why it's such a, such an important appointment.
23:50 So it's, but it's going to be really interesting to see what happens.
23:53 But I think that, you know, the one thing we should definitely say is that I think
23:57 there is a correlation between important players becoming available again and the results improving.
24:03 And we have seen over the last week that whatever your opinions on what should happen next,
24:08 Dodds has some tactical mouths and he has the respect of the dressing room
24:12 because that Blackburn game, you know, it was a disgrace, no other way to describe it really.
24:17 But you don't get the sort of the application that we've seen away at Leeds and away at West Brom.
24:23 You know, if the coach doesn't have the respect of the dressing room, it just doesn't happen.
24:27 No, absolutely. There's a lot of obviously speculation about Sunderland's next head coach,
24:31 you know, a lot of lists with potential candidates, a lot of talk and a lot of chatter.
24:35 One name I wanted to talk to you about Phil is Danny Rule at Sheffield Wednesday.
24:39 I think I find him a really interesting character in a sense that he's done a really good job at Sheffield Wednesday.
24:44 On the surface of it, when you look at the league table, you might think what's the hype all about?
24:47 But when he took Sheffield, the job at Sheffield Wednesday,
24:50 I don't think that they'd won a game or had a couple of points or something like that.
24:54 And he's got them to within touching distance of staying up.
24:57 He's done a marvellous job and I'm not comparing Sheffield Wednesday's ownership to Sunderland's in any way,
25:03 because I think they are very different.
25:04 But he sort of proved to me as a head coach that he can work under a very specific set of circumstances when required.
25:12 And he is very much a coach. And I just wonder if that's an avenue Sunderland will pursue or somebody of his ilk.
25:20 Yeah, well, that's kind of what I was going back to before in terms of making it make sense.
25:24 So Danny Rowe would make a lot of sense to me.
25:28 He has what Kyrill seems to crave and what his statement when Tony Mowbray was sacked seems to crave,
25:35 which is a very, very heavy inverted commas here, an elite coaching pedigree.
25:40 You know, that seems to be Kyrill's sort of primary desire, someone who's worked in an elite life environment.
25:47 And obviously Rowe, who's worked with the German national team, worked at Bayern Munich.
25:51 He has that. He has an ultra aggressive playing style.
25:55 Like Sheffield Wednesday have not almost got themselves out of trouble by sort of, you know,
25:59 defending in a low block and nicking set pieces.
26:02 They have a goal. So again, that ticks the box.
26:05 And I think what sort of we, because obviously the Sheffield stars are a paper in our company,
26:10 and it's clear from our chatting to their writers and reading their stuff and stuff,
26:14 he has a bit of a charisma about him as well.
26:17 So that's kind of what we expect something to do.
26:22 And so for me, like he would be an outstanding candidate or someone of a similar pedigree.
26:28 But what we have this reservation and it's mainly because of what happened earlier in the season is,
26:33 like, is that is the intent there and is the ambition there from someone to go and do something like that?
26:38 Yeah.
26:40 Yeah. And this question was put to and all the other stuff as well, not just paying the actual compensation,
26:45 you know, all the other stuff to go and make a deal of that happen.
26:48 And we could say, put Will still in a similar category to go and get him from the French top tier.
26:54 You know, the question was put, speaking again, wasn't it, about support and making the money,
26:57 he said, you know, finances would be no object.
26:59 He did say that, you know, paying compensation doesn't mean you get a successful manager, which is obviously true.
27:05 Yeah, absolutely right.
27:06 But that's absolutely right. But it's also like, let's be honest, it's not really the point, is it?
27:10 It's like, you know, because...
27:12 Because if you can pay compensation, but you don't to get a worse candidate, then that's not good.
27:17 Right. So that and that's where all of us are kind of going, that's what all of us is sort of...
27:23 You know, it's really shaken our sort of, like I say, it's shaken the faith in the operation a little bit.
27:29 And so that's where the interest and dynamic about this appointment is going to be.
27:33 And again, like to emphasize, it's not saying that if you get, if they go and get someone who's not in work,
27:40 it means they made a cheap appointment and they're not ambitious or whatever.
27:42 It's just like, what I really, really want is to see an appointment that matches up with that statement that Kiril Udreifus and Christian Spiegel made when they sacked Tony Mowbray,
27:52 which they then absolutely spectacularly did not deliver on in their subsequent actions.
27:58 Do you know what I mean? And that's what we're all looking at.
28:00 And that's why I get a little... That's why I find these discussions can actually be a little bit difficult from our perspective,
28:06 because I can give you an idea of what we think someone's kind of going to do based on what they say.
28:11 And that would be absolutely somebody like Danny Rowe.
28:14 But after what happened last time, you just kind of go and... I'm not really sure exactly, you know, what is going on there.
28:20 So it's going to be really interesting. But for me, like, if you just ask in my sort of honest opinion,
28:25 I would put Rowe up there as an outstanding candidate.
28:29 Actually, someone like that I would be really excited by. But you just don't know, do you?
28:37 No, you don't. Let's move on to our next talking points.
28:41 I wanted to talk a little bit about Tommy Watson. He scored again for the under-21s against Middlesbrough last night.
28:47 Sunderland lost 2-1 at the Stadium of Light. He's got 3-3.
28:50 He's banging on the door. Mike Dodds has been asked about him a couple of times.
28:55 He's obviously struggled to break into the first team.
29:00 The fact that Jack Clarke is so good and that he had a few injuries earlier on in the season,
29:04 but with three games left to play, Sunderland can't get relegated.
29:07 They also can't get into the playoffs. You would expect him to come in at some point, you would hope? Makes sense?
29:13 Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think we discussed this ahead of the Leeds and West Brom.
29:18 As always, I mean, Joe actually, yeah, on the podcast.
29:21 And I sort of said then, and I did quite strongly feel that Leeds and West Brom, it's not the time to just put people in.
29:29 And that's not even just in protecting Dodds or protecting the result.
29:33 That's actually protecting the player. I know Chris Rigg played in those games,
29:36 but Rigg's had a fairly decent taste of it, both in terms of first-team training and first-team football now.
29:43 Watson, like the start of the first half of the season,
29:47 was really badly impacted by the fact that he didn't have much of a pre-season because of injury.
29:52 He then had another injury, which was the same time when Clark had his ankle injury, wasn't it?
29:58 And Robert's was also at the same time. Yeah, yeah.
30:00 And he was injured in that point, which is a really important point to make.
30:03 So he then came back into it and he had to rebuild his fitness,
30:07 which is why he was playing a lot of under-21s games. The knock-on effect of that is,
30:11 he wasn't always available to train with the first team because he had playing commitments,
30:15 which he needed to get up to match fitness. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, up until this point,
30:21 it makes total sense to me that we haven't seen a huge amount of Watson.
30:24 Like now, I really do feel like, maybe not this weekend,
30:30 but the last couple of games, I don't see why you wouldn't include him.
30:33 Yeah, I think that there is an argument to say that as it stands,
30:36 Sunderland have four wingers contracted from XE's and Clark, Roberts, Barber and Lundell.
30:41 So you don't necessarily have to experiment hugely in that position
30:45 because you have got good young players who need minutes,
30:49 like Mundell especially needs some minutes between now and the end of the season.
30:53 So I do think there's a balance to be struck. But given the uncertainty over Clark's future,
30:58 and given the fact that, you know, Dack and Birstow,
31:01 who at the moment seem very unlikely to be here next season, have been in the squads,
31:05 I really don't understand why you can't give Watson a bit of a go,
31:10 even if it's not this weekend, because I know he played last night, didn't he?
31:12 So whether that will affect his training with the first team this week,
31:15 I don't know. We're certainly moving into the last couple of games.
31:18 I just think it's a little bit of a no-brainer.
31:19 If, you know, if you're thinking of having a Birstow or a Dack on the bench,
31:23 you know, why not have a Tommy Watson on the bench,
31:27 especially because as we say at the moment, it feels like Clark will be going.
31:30 So I think there's a lot of reasons why it hasn't quite happened yet.
31:33 And I think we should be really careful about just chucking him in the same category as Rigg,
31:37 because mainly for pure fitness reasons,
31:42 they've been in completely different boats for much of this season,
31:45 which is not Watson's fault whatsoever.
31:46 It's just, you know, it's just life. It's just football.
31:50 But if we go at the end of the season and we hadn't seen him,
31:53 I think I'd be pretty disappointed.
31:55 You know, we asked Dodds about a couple of weeks ago when he was still coming back to fitness
31:58 and he sort of said, I've had a good chat with Tommy,
32:01 things I really like about his game, things I want him to work on and stuff.
32:04 Having then scored in pretty much every game since then,
32:07 like you'd like to think, you know, he's sort of given him a bit of a dilemma.
32:12 So I'm quite confident that we will see him.
32:15 I do think we'll start to see a little bit of a shift now.
32:18 I think we might see Dodds be a little bit more,
32:21 and we have to give Dodds a little bit of credit as well.
32:24 Like, he picked the perfect moment to bring Pembele into the team.
32:29 We were all looking at it going, where is Pembele?
32:31 Why isn't he off getting a chance? He brought him in when he switched to a back five.
32:35 He brought him in an environment where, you know,
32:38 Traheim could take on a lot of the pressure and that would teach the game.
32:42 And Pembele's been better for being brought in at the right time.
32:45 And he's got a little bit of a platform to move forward.
32:47 So I think we should give, he's also done a decent job in terms of integrating Rigg.
32:51 I think, although I want to see Rigg in midfield in the long run,
32:54 obviously, because that's his position, I think it's made sense to do what he's done with him.
32:57 And I think Rigg's had a good taste of it.
33:00 And we'll have a better understanding of sort of the intensity when he does move into midfield.
33:03 So maybe we should give Dodds a little bit of credit in terms of,
33:07 you know, picking the right moment to introduce Watson.
33:10 But I really hope he does because, you know, we've both seen flashes of him.
33:13 He's a really exciting talent. He's kind of freakishly similar to Jack Clark.
33:18 It's like really weird. His playing style is like...
33:21 His goal last night, if you watch it, like Jack Clark could have scored that.
33:24 It's very, very, very similar to what Clark would do.
33:29 Yeah, definitely. So I'm really, I'd be really disappointed if we got to the end of the season
33:34 and Watson hadn't had a bit of a go, even if it's just off the bench in a couple of the games.
33:40 But I think it will happen. I think it will happen.
33:42 I can understand why. I don't think Leeds and West Brom personally with the best games to do it,
33:47 especially not, as I say, given the fact that he's been coming back from an injury himself.
33:51 No, absolutely agree. Another Sunderland youngster that I'd like to quickly talk about before the end of the podcast,
33:56 Phil, is Sunderland goalkeeper Mattley Young on loan at Darlington.
34:01 They've avoided relegation from the National League North under former Newcastle player Steve Watson.
34:07 A remarkable turnaround. Everybody at Darlington, fans, players, management,
34:13 they're all raving about Young and his impact. 17 years old,
34:17 Sunderland's goalkeeping position, sort of first team position with Anthony Patterson is pretty solid.
34:24 All others a minor question mark in the summer.
34:27 But yes, just a very, very exciting footballer to have and could well go on loan again next season.
34:32 I don't think he's going to play the first team for Sunderland anytime soon in terms of the next season or so.
34:38 I just think he's a little bit too young, but a massively exciting prospect.
34:42 Yes, really, really, really exciting prospect.
34:44 And I think his development has been pretty rapid, I think, over the last year or so.
34:49 What I would say is that I agree with you.
34:51 I think he's unlikely to be a first team player next season just because of his age.
34:54 But I think he's pretty likely to be a first team player in pre-season.
35:00 So, I mean, I think realistically, I can't see Alex Bass sort of coming back to the club.
35:06 I would imagine he'll look to move on after a good year at Wimbledon.
35:09 I think there'll be some question marks over Nathan Bishop because I think obviously he came into the club
35:13 knowing that he was going to be back up to Anthony Patterson, but at some point he'll want to go and play.
35:18 So I do think in pre-season, I'd be absolutely stunned
35:20 if we didn't see Matty Young play a few games, to be honest.
35:25 And I think from Sunderland's perspective, there'll be absolutely no need to rush him out the door on a lone move.
35:31 I think you can bring him back in. You can train regularly with the first team group.
35:35 You can play. You can go on the trip.
35:38 I would imagine that Spain would be around that environment.
35:41 And then a little bit later as the season approaches, you can then take a step back and go, right, what's his level?
35:46 What's the right next move?
35:48 So I think it's just a real good position for Sunderland to be in, to be honest.
35:52 But he is like, you know, the repulsion down, as you mentioned,
35:56 and that he's had an absolute massive impact in a difficult scenario.
36:00 And, you know, National League North is a good level
36:02 and it's a very challenging level for a goalkeeper of his age to go into.
36:07 So it's incredibly exciting for the club.
36:09 And then, you know, we have to give, again, you know, we've probably mentioned it a lot over the years,
36:14 but Mark Prudhoe, the goalkeeping guru, like his track record is absolutely out of this world.
36:23 Everybody speaks so highly of that man.
36:27 Yeah, and his record speaks for itself. And it's not just Matt Young either.
36:29 There's some really other talented, really young goalkeepers in the group as well.
36:33 So yeah, a position of real strength, I think for Sunderland.
36:37 I think realistically, as you mentioned, there's obviously that slight question mark over Paterson
36:41 because somebody could come in for him this summer, given where he's at and the progress he's already made.
36:46 I still think even in that situation, it might be a little bit too soon for Matt Young.
36:52 I think because obviously, you know, going in, even Paterson had a bit of time out in London,
36:56 near Notts County in the Football League before.
36:58 He was very young, obviously, to come into the team in League One,
37:01 but he had played a bit in Notts County.
37:03 And I think he'd be the first to tell you that exposure was really, really important for him.
37:08 So I think either a National League or a Football League loan first is going to be really important for Young.
37:14 But yeah, I think the future is really, really bright for him.
37:18 And one of the things we have to say as well, rightly so,
37:22 we criticise a lot of the decisions that are made and the way the season's gone and stuff.
37:25 I do think there are some really exciting signs in the Academy at the moment
37:30 and some really good talent coming through. And we have to recognise that as well.
37:36 And I think Young has got a massive chance. It's that kind of team, isn't it?
37:39 They nearly beat Man City to the Under-18s League last year.
37:43 And, you know, it's a real, looks to be a bit of a, hopefully they can all deliver on their promise,
37:49 but it looks to be a bit of a gem of a sort of generation, doesn't it? When you've got Rick Young.
37:54 I know Mason Kotch has obviously left, but he was another who was in that group as well.
37:59 So yeah, it's going to be really exciting to watch that progress
38:02 because it feels like there's a handful of them in that team
38:04 who could really do something special.
38:07 Yeah, just to underline your point there, it's really positive as well
38:10 that Sunderland actually have Matt Young on a professional contract
38:13 and they've built that sort of side of the Academy.
38:15 Yes, it's not a hard and fast rule that Sunderland will retain every promising youngster.
38:19 We've seen Toby Bell go, Toby Bell, sorry, not Tony Bell, and Mason Kotch.
38:25 But by and large, the contrast from the Donald and Methven era is pretty stark now.
38:31 Yeah, definitely. I mean, the track record has improved.
38:33 And again, like I mentioned before about sort of the, you know,
38:36 I can get into it and you'll be the same into a bit of a Sunderland bubble and stuff.
38:40 Like every club outside the top six or eight struggles to keep their best young players.
38:47 And even at the very top level, sometimes players switch. Do you know what I mean?
38:51 I know in some ways it's a ludicrous comparison, but like Cole Palmer,
38:54 like sometimes young players just decide to move.
38:56 They have their own reasons and they want to take opportunities.
38:59 So, and there's always like, sometimes there are like factors where it's not necessarily anybody's fault.
39:07 It's just something that happens. And the example we would use,
39:10 I think James would be, and Josh Robertson's an obvious one where he opted to go to Brighton,
39:16 which was obviously really disappointing from a Sunderland's perspective.
39:19 But you have to be realistic about the fact that he plays kind of in a similar position to Chris Rigg, right?
39:23 So, and maybe in a year's time,
39:27 every promising young goalkeeper would look at Matt Young and think, hmm.
39:31 - Time to go. - Yeah. So, do you know what I mean?
39:34 So, like there's always like loads of factors that make it happen.
39:36 And I think it is definitely something that has been steadily improving.
39:41 Tommy Watson himself is someone who could definitely have gone last season, you know, and opted to stay.
39:49 I'm sure he'll be hoping for opportunities next year.
39:51 Otherwise, he will definitely be considering his future because he's good enough to play.
39:55 But I think generally speaking, it's like, it's definitely a positive
39:59 and it's something that especially us who sort of report on the team and sort of hold the club to account.
40:04 It's something we've got to factor in as well.
40:05 That there is a balance because you can't, if you want to keep young players,
40:12 you have to play them and there is a consequence for playing young players
40:16 and you can't have it both ways. You can't have a team full of established players
40:20 and then expect to keep young players when there's no pathway for them.
40:25 So, there is a balance and we really, you know, we all need to be mindful of recognising that.
40:29 At the same time, I think it's fair to say that the balance hasn't been right this year.
40:33 It's been too extreme. In a lot of the young players' cases,
40:36 it hasn't really helped them because there's been too much pressure on them.
40:40 And to be fair, you know, I mentioned before about Mike Dodds,
40:43 really interested in speaking about the planning for next season.
40:46 Bit of an indication from him that the penny has kind of dropped a little bit behind the scenes
40:50 and there is a bit of a recognition.
40:51 I know he certainly feels that for much of his tenure, the team has been too young,
40:56 you know, and we're talking someone whose background is in youth development.
40:59 So, there's no bigger advocate than him for pushing youth forward.
41:03 But even he sort of said, you know, realistically to compete at this level,
41:07 it needs to be a bit of a better balance.
41:08 So, yeah, it's going to be a really interesting summer in all of these cases, Ruud.
41:13 Absolutely. Well, we'll bring it into it there because we've gone way over time,
41:17 but that was a great chat, Phil.
41:18 Thanks for joining us. Sunderland next up against Millwall on Saturday,
41:21 Watford after that away, then rounding off the season against Sheffield Wednesday at home.
41:26 We'll have all the build-up to those three remaining games in the Championship,
41:30 including podcasts and everything from Mike Dodds.
41:35 Phil, once again, thank you for joining us.
41:36 Thanks to the listener and cheers for listening to the Raw podcast.
41:40 [BLANK_AUDIO]