Adrian Atkinson Interview
"There are lots of ways to enjoy basketball. Mine is on the far spectrum of craziness.” A behind-the-scenes look at the man who has charted all 719 games of the Roy Williams era, but who still enjoys a good dunk just as much as the next guy.
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00:00Hi, this is Isaac Shade from Sports Illustrated's All-Tar Heels.
00:05I'm here tonight with Adrian Atkinson, who you might know from several different venues,
00:11but most recently you've probably been following the Twitter feed, UNC Dunk of the Day.
00:16And so I wanted to connect with Adrian and ask him all sorts of questions about his background
00:21and how we got into analytics and charting and things like that.
00:25And so Adrian and I are just going to talk tonight a lot about basketball and the ins
00:28and outs of stuff and what all he's into.
00:31So Adrian, thank you so much for joining me.
00:33It's good to talk to you, man.
00:34Yeah, you too.
00:35Thanks for having me on.
00:36Oh, it's a pleasure.
00:37I'm so glad to have you.
00:39So just tell us some about your background.
00:42Where are you from?
00:43Where'd you grow up?
00:44Any of that kind of stuff.
00:45Yeah, I'm from a little town called Freeport, which is where my Twitter handle, Freeport
00:51Kid comes from.
00:53It's a Pittsburgh suburb.
00:55If you follow the Allegheny River up for 20 or 25 miles, it'll be right there on the
00:59river.
01:00And yeah, so I grew up there, played high school basketball.
01:03I was telling you before, I'm kind of a poor man's Jeff Lebo.
01:07I was kind of an unathletic point guard, you know, kind of skilled, a pretty good shooter.
01:13No Lebo, but you know, shades of Lebo.
01:17Yes.
01:18I know Jeff Lebo was the point guard that brought a lot of people to love Carolina.
01:22Yeah.
01:23So that's awesome.
01:24Very good.
01:25Being a kid from Western Pennsylvania is, you were saying Lebo's from kind of the central
01:31part of this.
01:32Yeah, he's from Carlisle.
01:33Yeah.
01:34And he was a really big, you know, he's a high school All-American and like a top five
01:39or top 10 recruit.
01:40So we'd read like in our local paper about this hotshot from Carlisle who committed to
01:46Carolina.
01:47So I'd followed him, you know, he got there, I guess for the 86 season.
01:50So I started following Carolina, I guess I was, you know, nine at that point, like in
01:53my fourth grade.
01:55So that's kind of how I started watching Carolina and kind of fell in love with the program.
02:00You know, the way Coach Smith taught the game, like even when I was a kid, I think I appreciated
02:04the way they moved the ball, the way they shared the ball.
02:06And it was just, you know, a fun style of basketball to watch.
02:09I've been a fan ever since, you know, it's been 30 plus years now.
02:14That's awesome.
02:15That's a cool story.
02:16I love it.
02:17It's fun how different individuals can lead us into things like that.
02:22Yeah.
02:23So tell us about, you said you played point guard.
02:26Did you, how long did you play?
02:28Any of that?
02:29Yeah, I played just through high school and, you know, played intramurals and stuff in
02:35college and I still play pickup any time I can, well, you know, in the pre-COVID days,
02:41I used to try to get there a couple times a week and play, but yeah, wasn't really good
02:47enough to play at any level beyond high school, but yeah, I've always loved, I got a hoop
02:52out in my driveway.
02:53I'll go out there and get some jumpers up any time I can, so love playing.
02:59Nice.
03:00And so today you live in Raleigh.
03:02So tell us about your progression down south from Pennsylvania.
03:06Yeah, I went to college at University of Richmond.
03:10So yeah, as a spider, and I actually played Carolina a couple of times when I was in school.
03:16You know, the Vince Carter, Antoine Jameson team came to the Robbins Center, you know,
03:23on Richmond's campus and beat them up by 20 or 30 points when I was there.
03:30And then I actually ended up at NC State of all places for, you know, doing my graduate
03:37work in economics because they had a really good environmental economics program there.
03:44And I've been in Raleigh, you know, since 99, ever since grad school.
03:48So been in Triangle a long time now.
03:51Yeah, that's great.
03:53And so, you know, as I'm aware, the analytics work you do, the things is just kind of a
04:01side fun job for you.
04:02So what is your full time job?
04:04What do you do?
04:05Yeah, I'm a data scientist.
04:06I work at a triangle tech company.
04:08You know, I've been in a couple of different places, actually, I'm doing some consulting
04:12for a few different companies now.
04:13But yeah, I've been doing kind of tech, you know, tech startups, kind of data analytic
04:19stuff and, you know, data science work for the past decade or so.
04:24That's awesome.
04:25And so I guess I've always been a numbers guy, you know, growing up, I was a big Bill
04:28James fan, played like stratomatic basketball and baseball, kept all my own stats.
04:35And that was kind of my first my foray into like, you know, stats and analytics, I guess,
04:42from an early age.
04:43That's awesome.
04:44Yeah.
04:45So you've been just following that progression that over into baseball, and that was very
04:50prevalent in basketball.
04:51And so I'm guessing that's what led you to start doing some of what you do with all the
04:56charting and analytics and stuff online and on your blogs and Twitter and stuff.
05:01Yeah, that's right.
05:02Cool.
05:04Go ahead.
05:05Go ahead.
05:06No, I was gonna say, talk to us some about some of those things.
05:08Yeah, I do something, I'm calling it the Carolina charting project.
05:12But really, like I started doing and I guess, you know, four season, like the year Roy came
05:16back to Chapel Hill.
05:18So I've been doing it all through his tenure.
05:21And it's just, you know, I rewatch each game.
05:24And I chart kind of everything that happens on both ends of the court, you know, each
05:29possession, and then enter that all into like a spreadsheet or a database.
05:34And you know, it's just, it's defensive charting, like, you know, kind of defensive accounting,
05:37you know, giving blame or credit, the appropriate players, and then like, you know, length of
05:42possession, type of, you know, offensive phase, you know, they score in secondary or primary
05:47break, or, you know, freelance passing game or whatever, and you know, where the shot
05:52was taken, the type of shot, how well contested it was, you know, just all these things, your
05:58number of passes, ball reversals, just all kinds of crazy stuff.
06:02So it's just in this big database.
06:04And that's kind of a wild hobby, I guess, but you're like a weird way to enjoy the game
06:10or watch the game.
06:11But I guess I'm pretty obsessive about that, you know, there's lots of ways to enjoy basketball,
06:16but mine is kind of on the far spectrum of, you know, craziness, maybe.
06:22Yeah.
06:23Hey, that's awesome.
06:24It keeps you involved and invested in what's going on.
06:28That's great.
06:29So you've charted every game from the 03-04 season through 2019-20?
06:34Yeah.
06:35Wow, that's really impressive.
06:38Then maybe 100 from the early, I'm trying to find and do more from, you know, the Dean
06:43Smith era, you know, the 80s and 90s, as many old games as I can get my hands on, but that's
06:48obviously like a lot of, there's a lot of old games and kind of a slow process, but
06:53yeah.
06:54Okay.
06:55Well, then if you're watching this and you have old game footage, Adrian would love to
06:59connect with you so that he can get some of that footage and chart the game.
07:03So please connect with him on Twitter or send him an email or something.
07:08There are some folks, yeah, really good libraries out there, past games, good connections, but
07:13yeah.
07:14Good.
07:15That's great.
07:16So how long, like, talk me through like breaking down a possession.
07:21How long would that take?
07:24Yeah, it usually, it takes about, you know, if the game is two hours, it probably takes
07:30two hours to rewatch and chart one, you know, I can fast forward through the commercials
07:34and halftime obviously, and like free throws, you know, you can go through them quickly,
07:39but then it takes a little bit longer, you know, you're going back and forth, like using
07:42that eight second rewind or five second rewind, kind of go back and rewatch certain things.
07:49And obviously, you know, writing stuff down and recording it takes a little extra time,
07:52but generally it takes about two hours and then maybe another hour or two to enter the
07:57data, you know, to get it uploaded in the database.
08:00So it's pretty time intensive, but it's not like terrible, I guess, but it's, it's not
08:06trivial.
08:07Yeah, not at all.
08:09So you were talking about, so for example, like in a defensive possession, somebody that
08:13gets credit or blame for what they've done, like how, how closely contested a shot is,
08:19for example.
08:20So how do you, how do you quantify how well a shot is contested?
08:25Yeah, it's kind of subjective, right?
08:27I mean, you've got to, obviously a blocked shot is heavily contested and, you know, a
08:34wide open shot is a wide open shot, but then like there's, for contested shots, there's
08:39like a, you know, it's a spectrum of lightly contested to well contested.
08:44And there's really no, like, I don't really have like, if they're five feet away, it's
08:49lightly contested.
08:50If they're one foot away, you know, that's hard to eyeball anyway.
08:53So it's kind of a subjective feel, but I've been pretty consistent through the years with
08:57it.
08:58And it's, I mean, it takes into account things like, is the shooter on the move or like did
09:02they, you know, if you make somebody pump fake and step back or relocate, then even
09:07if you only get a partial hand up, then maybe it's contested versus lightly contested.
09:12But so, but there's definitely a subjective element to it, you know, there's an art and
09:17a science to the charting exercise.
09:22Yeah, that's great.
09:24And so how did you break into putting your content online?
09:30What was your first kind of dive into doing that?
09:33Yeah, I guess just the Inside Carolina message boards.
09:37I guess I probably started doing like in the 04 season, you know, just, just a message
09:42board posts.
09:43I was really just plus minus at that point.
09:46I wasn't really even doing lineups, I was just kind of doing like raw plus minus.
09:50Like you know, Carolina was plus 20 when Jackie Manuel was on the court, and negative 14 when
09:55Melvin Scott was in the game.
09:58The big thing in 04 was Carolina was a lot better plus minus wise with Jackie on the
10:03floor.
10:04But Scott was a starter and he played a lot more minutes.
10:07And finally, by the end of the year, Roy did put Jackie in the starting lineup in an 05.
10:12Obviously, they made that change.
10:13And they started Jackie, but the plus minus data supported that almost in the beginning.
10:18So that's really about all I remember from the season.
10:23So are there are there any things like that, that the numbers have borne out where you're
10:28like, oh, man, Roy, you should really be doing this because of what my numbers are telling
10:34me and then they've gone on to make those changes?
10:36Yeah, I mean, the obvious ones like, you know, PJ Hairston, in being inserted in the starting
10:42lineup, Kendall, Everly, Drew, you know, it's hard to really second guess.
10:47You don't know what's going on in the locker room and like, right, exactly, the dynamics
10:51of, you know, I didn't try to second guess anyone too much, but there are like clear
10:57like, the team is way better with this guy on the court, but like this guy at the floor
11:00instead of the three or whatever.
11:02So kind of the obvious ones have certainly been supported by the data.
11:08So for example, the past couple years when the team has had to go small a good deal bit
11:14more, how has that played into your efficiency numbers and plus minus?
11:19Yeah, I mean, Carolina is generally better offensively when they go small, but they get
11:24something up on the defensive end.
11:26So it's about what you'd expect, really.
11:28It depends on the year, like who they have.
11:31Like when they went small with Theo, he was pretty good at guarding guys in the post.
11:36So they didn't lose much on the defensive end and they got a lot better offensively.
11:43So it's just almost always they get better offensively and a little bit worse defensively.
11:47So it's a pretty consistent trade off and like an intuitive one.
11:52And the question is, is it much more, is the offensive production higher than the defensive
11:57loss?
11:58Yeah.
11:59And you have to weigh that.
12:00But Roy loves dominating the glass so much.
12:02I think that's a hard...
12:04It's painful for him.
12:05Yeah.
12:06He really likes having those two bigs in the game.
12:07Well, I think we won't have problems with that this year.
12:12That's very good.
12:13So eventually you moved on to some other writing things.
12:17What were some of the next steps you took after just posting there in the Insider Carolina
12:22boards?
12:23Yeah.
12:24I actually, I wrote and edited a preseason Carolina magazine.
12:28It's called Tar Heel Tip-Off from Maple Street Press, which is out of business now.
12:33But we did that for maybe five seasons, like 07 to 2012, maybe.
12:39And that was just kind of, it was like their whole premise was we want to do like these
12:44kind of analog, they were like big money ball guys, you know, the guy who started it.
12:47They want to do like analytical stuff and like kind of thinking fans stuff.
12:53So they had me edit the Carolina one and we did, like I said, five seasons of it.
12:58You know, it was pretty nitty gritty.
13:00Like a lot of my charting data went in there.
13:02So that was fun.
13:03And then I have a blog, which I don't really post on much these days, but it was called
13:08The Secondary Break.
13:10And you know, that was just kind of, I wrote longer form articles and just really nitty
13:15gritty like breaking down games and like stretches of games and all kinds of crazy stuff.
13:22So and I write for Insider Carolina, just doing some freelance work.
13:25And I try to keep those pieces a little bit shorter and tighter, but it's still analytical
13:30stuff or like X's and O's kind of charting based stuff, kind of my, my wheelhouse, I
13:35guess.
13:36Yeah, for sure.
13:38In those days of the Tar Heel tip-off, that was some really good teams from 07 to 012.
13:44So I'm sure that was a lot of fun.
13:45That was a lot of fun.
13:46Yeah.
13:47Yeah.
13:48That's a great stretch.
13:49Yeah.
13:50Yep.
13:51Very good.
13:52And so, yeah, you had The Secondary Break and a lot of great content on your Twitter
14:00feed on Freeport Kid for people to follow.
14:04If you don't, I would highly suggest giving Adrian a follow there.
14:09But most recently, as I had referenced earlier, you had started, I guess at some point this
14:14year, you can talk to us about when it was, but the Carolina Dunk of the Day, Twitter
14:19feed, which I believe the feed is at UNC Dunks.
14:22Is that correct?
14:23Yeah, that's right.
14:24Yeah.
14:25So talk to us about the genesis of that.
14:27Where did the idea come from?
14:29Yeah.
14:30So actually, a couple of summers ago, I kind of created a YouTube channel, which now it's
14:35really just kind of a place where I store all my clips and all my video.
14:41You know, it's not really any high-level editing going on there.
14:44It's a bunch of like raw clips.
14:46But I went through a bunch of games a couple of summers ago and just kind of separated
14:51it all into like, you know, that's when I was really starting my X's and O's and like,
14:58I was really into that.
14:59That was my big kick that summer.
15:00And I was breaking down like secondary, regular into like all the options, right?
15:05Like the back screen lob or like the cross screen entry or like, you know, the high low
15:10and just kind of going through it with video clips, kind of as it flows in the offense
15:16and just trying to like visually demonstrate like kind of all the actions and options in
15:22Carolina's offense.
15:24So I had a bunch of clips of everything, but hundreds of dunks and, you know, it just
15:30kind of occurred to me that, and the dunk is something that, you know, it kind of, it's
15:35like kind of like a common ground to like, like I was saying, there's a lot of ways to
15:39enjoy basketball.
15:40You know, you can be fanatical about it like we are, or you can just be like a casual fan
15:44who loves the Tar Heels, but doesn't really get into all the X's and O's and the strategy
15:50and stuff, but still loves watching the game.
15:52The dunk is kind of like one of the plays that really unifies all Carolina fans or all
15:58basketball fans.
15:59Like everyone appreciates a good dunk, like, you know, that kind of expression of athleticism.
16:05So I figured, you know, let's start a channel where we just put up a bunch of Carolina dunks
16:13and see how that goes.
16:14That's awesome.
16:15Yeah.
16:16Very good.
16:17Yeah.
16:18It's like the dunk in basketball or the home run in baseball.
16:21That is the SportsCenter clip that everybody's going to see.
16:23Yeah, it's kind of ironic because I'm, I kind of get mad.
16:27Like, I'm kind of one of those guys like SportsCenter, they just throw threes and dunks, or like,
16:32you know, AAU, they showed like these scouting reports and saw just guys making shots and
16:36like dunking, like uncontested dunks, and doesn't really show like a guy's all-around
16:41game or like what kind of player he is.
16:42So I've been like rallying against that for decades, but now it's like, ironically, I'm
16:46doing like the same thing, you know, just showing dunks.
16:49Yeah.
16:50Yeah.
16:51Let's see a guy giving good help side defense or something.
16:52Right.
16:53Right.
16:54Right.
16:55Drawing some charges.
16:56Yeah.
16:57That's right.
16:58Man.
16:59But I do try to explain kind of, you know, if Carolina creates a dunk out of there, then
17:04the secondary dribble, you know, their back screen lob play, I'll try to have that in
17:09the write-up.
17:10You know, so I try to explain like a little more X's and O's, but some of them are just,
17:14you know, a guy gets a steal in the open and then has a breakaway dunk.
17:17Yeah.
17:19That's how a lot of dunks are.
17:20Yeah.
17:21That was something I was going to say is I really appreciate that.
17:23It's not just, Hey, here's a dunk from this game in 1990, whatever.
17:26Like you actually give some good context and some helpful understanding to what's going
17:31on.
17:32And so, yeah, I think that's really helpful to people as they're reading your content.
17:36So what, what do you think it is about, you know, I know you said like, it's just a really
17:41neat display of athleticism, but why, why is the dunk such a unifying, like, Ooh, kind
17:49of moment?
17:50What is it?
17:51Yeah.
17:52I mean, I guess most of us were never able to dunk, you know, on a 10 foot hoop at least,
17:55but we all like on a Nerf, you know, in our basement on a Nerf hoop or like an adjustable
18:01hoop, we've all experienced like what it's like to dunk and play it around with like
18:05different kinds of dunks.
18:06So I mean, everyone kind of has that dream.
18:08Like most of us can't do it on a 10 foot hoop, but we all kind of wish we could.
18:13So I mean, I think it's just kind of something that basketball fans like fantasize about
18:18or like, it's something you really appreciate like that display of athleticism.
18:22That's awesome.
18:24This is Isaac Shade.
18:26I'm here tonight with Adrian Atkinson.
18:28We're talking for Sports Illustrated and all Tar Heels.
18:33We're talking about Adrian's dunk of the day for Carolina Twitter feed and all his great
18:38analytical work that he does.
18:40And so Adrian, I was curious how you choose on a daily basis, which dunk you're going
18:46to use.
18:47Because all that footage you were talking about, how do you mine through it and make
18:50daily decisions?
18:51Yeah, there's really no, for as analytical as I am in some areas, there's really not
18:58much science behind that.
19:00I just kind of click around.
19:01I don't try, I like to have kind of different years or different decades represented for
19:05the most part and different players and keep it kind of fresh that way.
19:10So I don't want to have like five Bryce Johnson dunks in a row or like a bunch from the 2012
19:15season or whatever.
19:16So I kind of try to mix up as best I can there.
19:19Otherwise, it's really just whatever I come across first, you know, it's just never I'm
19:27a reason to it really.
19:28Yeah, that's awesome.
19:30And so I was scrolling through the feed and I noticed you had just finished the favorite
19:36Vince Carter dunk contest or her bracket.
19:40And so how did that go?
19:42Talk to us about that.
19:44Yeah, I guess I narrowed it down to 18 like kind of great Vince Carter dunks, at least
19:51ones I could find footage for.
19:53I'm sure there's some ones I missed that were, you know, kind of all time dunks.
19:58And I had a couple of playing games, got it down to a 16 dunk bracket and then just kind
20:03of went through it.
20:04You know, I didn't really seed them too much.
20:07I tried to put a couple that I thought were really good as like one or two seeds.
20:12Yeah, and then just kind of had fans or like, you know, people that follow the site kind
20:17of vote on which one they liked best.
20:20And I didn't I tried to call it favorite dunk, not really best dunk, like it's not really
20:23like a dunk contest per se.
20:25It's more like which of these dunks resonates the most with you as like a fan.
20:30You know, it's really it's a very subjective thing or like a very personal, like maybe
20:33you were at that game, like you watch with your dad or I mean, you have some good memory
20:37about the dunk.
20:38It wasn't the best dunk.
20:42Aesthetically or whatever, but it's just a dunk that you loved, for whatever reason.
20:46So, yeah.
20:47Here's a question I got to ask you.
20:49Did you give any consideration to the greatest almost dunk of all time against Duke in 1998?
20:56Yeah, no, only only made dunks.
20:59But I do have that clip and I'll probably, I'm sure I'll post it at some point on the
21:04site.
21:05And I'm not that would have been like the no brainer.
21:09I mean, that would have won, I think the competition easily.
21:11Yeah.
21:12And even if I won, even if I put it on there, it's like a missed dunk, but you gotta have
21:19standards, right?
21:20Yeah, absolutely.
21:21Yeah.
21:22You're a man of principles.
21:23Yeah.
21:24Right.
21:25That's good.
21:26And I think that play actually wound up with Carolina getting a three.
21:30Yeah, Simone with a three.
21:32Yeah.
21:33And then actually Carter came down and drew a charge on the ensuing.
21:36Yeah.
21:37Actually, I had that in my clip.
21:39He forced a turnover, then missed dunk, Simone hit the three and then he came down and drew
21:43a charge.
21:44So yeah, Carter forced two turnovers, kind of sandwiching that missed dunk.
21:48So we'll forgive him.
21:49Yeah, right.
21:51Man, Vince Carter, what a legacy that man has and just finishing up his career.
21:56It's been such a crazy thing to watch unfold.
21:59Yeah.
22:00Definitely a legend.
22:02Yeah.
22:04Now you have another bracket going on on the Twitter feed, the favorite Carolina dunk,
22:10not just one player.
22:11Yeah.
22:12And so what led you to want to do that?
22:15Yeah, just the same thing, right?
22:17I mean, you hear people talk about it all the time, like a lot of people love the Danny
22:21Green over Paulos dunk.
22:23And Jordan had his Rock the Creator one, Hansborough had a couple memorable ones.
22:30And people talk about this is my favorite dunk or this is the best dunk.
22:33So why don't we actually have a tournament and see what the fans really, you know, what
22:38they prefer or like what the real favorite is.
22:41You know, it's kind of something I've always been, I've always been kind of like a tournament
22:44guy and like a list guy.
22:46You know, I've done like a top 100 Carolina players thing that I've done inside Carolina
22:51for the last couple years.
22:52And it's kind of in that same vein, right?
22:54Like let's vote on the best dunks.
22:57So yeah, it's just kind of for fun and, you know, just see who the winner is.
23:02And that one I did, I tried to see that one a little better, at least into like, what
23:05I consider like, like really good dunks and then like kind of in the middle.
23:08I mean, they're all great dunks, but I didn't want to have like, two really good ones going
23:13up in the early rounds.
23:14So I did some rough seeding there that I'm sure will be controversial, but I think it
23:19will pretty effectively get the best ones into the later, you know, in this week 15
23:24and beyond.
23:25So we'll see.
23:26And that one's a full 64, right?
23:27Yeah, actually, I think I have 74 dunks.
23:30So I'm having 10 playing games, okay, and there's 10 winners will join the 54 that got
23:35buys or whatever.
23:36Yeah, we'll have a full 64 team field or 64 dunk field.
23:41So it's in the play in round right now?
23:43Yeah.
23:44Okay, so these are all kind of 15 and 16s that will probably get slaughtered in the
23:48first rounder.
23:49I don't know if we can get Stanley Green and Vince Carter and all the great dunks in history.
23:55They're all in Dayton right now trying to, right.
23:57Yeah.
23:59The first four first first 20.
24:01Yes.
24:02All right, folks, so you got to go to at UNC dunks and make sure you vote on these play
24:06in games so you can get your favorite dunk into the round of 64 there for actual consideration
24:11in the bracket.
24:14So Adrian, then I feel like I got to ask, and maybe this is tipping your hand a little
24:18bit.
24:19But do you have a favorite Carolina dunk?
24:22Uh, I mean, it's probably the Danny Green dunk.
24:27If I had to pick one.
24:29I like the Julius Peppers one against Wake.
24:33You know, all the there's not I don't really have a sentimental favorite, but all the all
24:37the traditional like all the I guess worthy at a couple in the the 82 final for that.
24:43But yeah, I'd say probably Danny Green over Paulus is personal.
24:48Just the way he his legs were spread.
24:49I mean, it's just Yeah, it's great.
24:52I mean, everyone hates Greg Paulus, right?
24:53So yeah, that couldn't be a better guy.
24:57Maybe whoa, Joe.
24:58But I mean, it couldn't be like a more hated guy to dunk is it's a lot of fun for Carolina
25:02fan to see like I get dunked on.
25:05Yeah.
25:06Theo had a similar dunk that he almost had a was it on his junior year, maybe that he
25:11missed similar to like Vince's Oh, man, it would have brought that I think it was against
25:16Duke.
25:17I don't remember what game specifically it was.
25:19I just remember there was a an almost old timer against Duke that yeah, well, going
25:25outside of the Carolina bubble, do you have a favorite dunk of all time college NBA wherever
25:32it's from?
25:33Actually?
25:34Yeah.
25:35I don't know if you can see my shirt.
25:36It's this.
25:37It's my Ascendant in Jerome.
25:38Yeah.
25:39And like I said, I grew up in Western PA.
25:41And I wasn't a huge pit fan growing up.
25:44But this happened, I think in 85 or 86.
25:46You know, the same time Lebo was kind of coming of age.
25:50And I did follow pit basketball.
25:53And yeah, that that the drum lane dunk where he broke the you know, where he shattered
25:58the glass.
25:59Yeah.
26:00If people are unfamiliar with it, it's a pretty iconic one in college basketball history.
26:05Bill Rafferty was on the call.
26:06Yeah.
26:07Ascendant in Jerome is like one of the greatest calls.
26:10Classic.
26:11Yeah.
26:12That's so like anytime I enter like an NCAA tournament bracket, I'll name my bracket Ascendant
26:15in Jerome.
26:16Yeah, that's one of my my go to.
26:20And actually one of my coaches in elementary school gave me a piece of that, you know,
26:25a shard of glass from the shattered backboard.
26:29That's yeah, that's right.
26:30Yeah.
26:31That's probably my all time.
26:32You know, just because, you know, as a young kid when it happened.
26:37So it's got kind of that sentimental that, like I was saying that personal attachment
26:41for me.
26:42So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
26:44Do you still have the piece of glass?
26:46I don't know if I do actually.
26:48It's probably up with like my old basketball cards.
26:51I could probably it's probably up in the attic somewhere, but I don't have it displayed
26:54anywhere.
26:55I have to look for it.
26:57That's awesome.
26:58Good.
26:59Well, I have a couple other favorites I want to ask you about and then you've been very
27:02generous with your time.
27:03I'll let you go after that.
27:05But what is your favorite type of play or set to break down when you're breaking down
27:11footage?
27:13Oh, I guess it's probably the secondary break in general, which is a collection of a dozen
27:19or so.
27:20You know, the secondary regular and secondary dribble and all of those have multiple actions
27:26and options.
27:27Right.
27:28So, I mean, it's a big it's not really a single play.
27:30It's, you know, it's a big kind of library plays, but that's I mean, I named the blog
27:37the secondary break for it because I mean, it's really a really, you know, it's a pretty
27:42cool thing that Roy does to get that early offense and they've been wildly successful
27:48with it.
27:49And it's kind of fun to break down all the options and like all the counters and the
27:52ways they can attack different defenses.
27:55So that's awesome.
27:57Well, so Adrian, let's put the clipboard in your hands.
28:02You were a basketball coach.
28:04What kind of offense would your team run?
28:06What kind of defense would your team run?
28:08Oh, wow.
28:09Like I was saying, I do like the secondary break.
28:12I mean, I love the way Coach Williams, you know, running hard in primary and then a good
28:18structured secondary offense that can create a bunch of easy opportunities.
28:24And then I really like, I mean, I really like the Carolina offense, you know, it's kind
28:28of outdated, right?
28:29They don't space.
28:30It's, you know, they don't spread the floor.
28:32They don't run a lot of ball screens with guys standing in the corner.
28:35But I like, you know, the freelance passing game.
28:38It's five guys moving, screening, a lot of cutting, you know, it's a little bit old fashioned
28:44in the sense that it's not the modern spacing, but I enjoy the way that, you know, it forces
28:50like players to learn the game, learn how to cut, learn how to move about the ball,
28:54learn how to, you know, screen and, and just all these little things that are important
29:00for any player to learn.
29:03So I probably run an offense similar to what Carolina runs, believe it or not.
29:06But on the defensive end, I might modernize, you know, I might do a little more the guard
29:12to three point line, maybe a little like a more of a no middles style like Texas Tech
29:18does where you're kind of icing ball screens and forcing guys to the baseline.
29:23Yeah.
29:24So.
29:25Which interestingly, I believe Coach Williams went to spend some time in Lubbock to learn
29:30some of their principles.
29:31So I'm curious to see.
29:32Yeah.
29:33Yeah.
29:34They've been guarding ball screens the same way forever, you know, just hard hedging and
29:37then recover, which works fairly well, but, you know, they've never really switched much.
29:42They've never really iced the ball screens or tried to force baseline.
29:46So yeah, I'm really curious to see if they implement any of that or how they tweak the
29:50defense or kind of modernize it.
29:52Yeah.
29:53I'll be curious.
29:54Well, we'll have to look for your analysis of it when the season hopefully starts.
29:59Yeah.
30:00Hopefully by late November.
30:01Fingers crossed.
30:02Yes.
30:03Yes.
30:04So Coach Atkinson is going to be much more a Roy Williams than a Tony Bennett.
30:08Yeah.
30:09Like, that's great.
30:10But I try not to criticize, like I was saying earlier, you know, I think, oh, yeah, absolutely.
30:14It's easy to be an armchair kind of coach, but, you know, it's the more you really watch
30:19and understand, you realize, like, I don't know a fraction of what these guys know.
30:24And, you know, it's, it's like, it's one of those things.
30:29Like, when you don't know anything, you think, oh, this is easy.
30:32But the more you learn, you understand, like, these guys are really good at this.
30:38Yeah.
30:39Yeah.
30:40It's really incredible and impressive.
30:41That's awesome.
30:42Yeah.
30:43So, outside of Mr. Jeff Lebo, we're just going to leave him on your pedestal.
30:47Who would be your next favorite Tar Heel of all time?
30:51Man, I...
30:52Or maybe, maybe a starting five, if you can't narrow it down.
30:55Yeah.
30:57I was, I was an Ed Cota guy, kind of in college, like, when I was playing on the playground
31:02at intramurals.
31:03I tried to do a bunch of his fancy dribbling and passing stuff.
31:08I really liked watching him play, you know, probably the best passer, him or Kendall.
31:12One of the best passers in Carolina history.
31:16So I'd say Ed Cota's high on the list.
31:18Jamison was fun to watch.
31:19Yeah, so many guys.
31:21Theo, I loved the way he played.
31:27So, but yeah, probably Cota if I had to pick someone.
31:30Okay.
31:31That's awesome.
31:32Okay.
31:33You said Kendall Marshall.
31:34If he doesn't break his wrist, who is the 2012 national champion?
31:38Oh, man.
31:39That was a good Kentucky team.
31:41That was a good Kentucky team.
31:43Carolina, they would have beat Kansas, you know, by 10 or 12, got to the championship
31:47game.
31:48But really, I think that's a coin flip.
31:49I mean, Carolina obviously could have won.
31:51They lost in the last second, you know, they had a chance.
31:54That blocked shot, right?
31:56Yeah.
31:57So they could play with those guys.
32:00But I mean, Anthony Davis was a phenomenal college player.
32:03He was.
32:04But, you know, obviously my heart says Carolina wins a close game, but my head probably says
32:09coin flip.
32:10But, you know, would have loved to watch it.
32:13Yeah, it would have been fun to get round two.
32:17Yeah.
32:18Absolutely.
32:19And, man, wow.
32:21Okay.
32:22Adrian, what else, if anything, do you have in the works right now?
32:27Anything coming down the pipeline?
32:29Yeah, not really.
32:31Like I was saying, I'm doing the Carolina charting project, which is really just me
32:36watching a bunch of old games whenever I find time and trying to kind of beef up my historical
32:41database and get like plus minus and lineup combinations for all the, you know, maybe
32:46like the Guthridge 98 team, like who rotated, you know, the alphabetical starting lineup.
32:52Yep.
32:53It'd be fun to like quantify that or like the 94 team, like how much better were they
32:57when Stack and Wallace were on the court versus like Salvadorian or East?
33:02You know, there's some interesting like historical questions that you can answer or not answer,
33:06but you know, the data might reveal some interesting things.
33:12Like who was the best mid-range, like, you know, Joe Forte's mid-range stats.
33:18How do they compare to like Justin Jackson's floater efficiency or, you know, just a lot
33:22of fun things.
33:23And obviously like the dunk data, like I've got historical, you know, from 04 to the present,
33:31like who the dunk, like Bryce Johnson had 196, I think he's like the leader for the
33:34Roy era, but like somebody like Heywood or Carter or James Worthy, like where they stack
33:40up.
33:41So things like that.
33:43That's cool.
33:44Good.
33:45So some, just some more mini projects of kind of ramming out your database always.
33:50Yeah.
33:51That's great.
33:52I love that.
33:53Well, let me ask you this question.
33:56This as we talked about, it's not your full-time job.
33:59It's just something that you love doing and it's something you have a knack for.
34:04Why Adrian give so much time to something like this?
34:09If you can answer that question, make sure you tell my, tell my wife what the answer
34:13is.
34:14She'd like to know the answer to that one, but yeah, obviously it's something I love.
34:18I'm passionate about it.
34:19So it's just something I do as a hobby, you know, if I get some free time, I'll break
34:23down a game and I'm just watching the old, like I was pretty young in the eighties.
34:30You know, I watched a lot of the games, but I didn't really understand it like I do now.
34:34So it's fun to kind of go back with like the way, the way I understand the game now,
34:40you know, even though I've seen those games, it's just almost like a whole new experience.
34:43So, I mean, I get a lot of enjoyment out of watching the old games and breaking them down.
34:48So just something I like to do.
34:51Very good.
34:52Well, on behalf of a lot of grateful people, tell your wife, thank you for, for allowing
34:57you that time and space.
34:59That's awesome.
35:00Well, Adriana, tell us where all can people connect with you if they want to see your work?
35:06Yeah.
35:07I mean, like you mentioned, Free Poor Kid is my primary Twitter and then UNC Dunk of
35:12the Day or UNC Dunks is kind of this project I'm doing now, or it's just, just what it
35:17sounds like, right?
35:18Just posting a bunch of Carolina dunks and that might branch out into like just great
35:22Carolina plays or like Pass of the Day or Three-Pointer of the Day or like Block of
35:27the Day.
35:28You kind of run out of dunks at some point, right?
35:30So if it's going to be like going two or three years in the future, we might have to branch
35:35out a little bit.
35:36Great layups in Carolina history.
35:39We'll see where that goes.
35:41And then I write for Inside Carolina, you know, just doing analytical stuff and exosomes.
35:47And the secondary break is kind of defunct now, so I won't really hype that up, but yeah,
35:55maybe I'll start writing again.
35:56If I find some more time, I do like the blog, so we'll see.
36:00That's great.
36:01Well, Adrian, I can't tell you how grateful I am for your time and giving us a little
36:05peek behind the curtain into the great work that you do.
36:08So thank you for the time that you take to break things down and to share your love for
36:14statistics and analysis with us so that we can all get a better understanding of what's
36:18going on as we watch plays and watch the game unfold.
36:23And so very grateful for your time.
36:25And thank you so much and hopefully we will have a 2020-21 season and we will get to continue
36:32seeing your great work.
36:33All right.
36:34Yeah.
36:35Thanks.
36:36It was great talking with you.
36:37You as well.
36:38Thank you so much.
36:39Yep.
36:40For Sports Illustrated Altar Heels, this is Isaac Shade.
36:43I've been with Adrian Atkinson.
36:44Thanks so much for tuning in.