Scotch whisky is a long-term industry. The Scotsman, in association with E.ON, recently brought together a selection of experts to discuss how to future-proof Scotch whisky. Highlights of that insightful discussion can be heard in a new Sustainable Scotland podcast, in partnership with E.ON.
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00:00Hello, I'm Rosemary Gallagher, and welcome to our Sustainable Scotland podcast, brought
00:07to you by The Scotsman, Scotland's national newspaper since 1817, now bringing you fresh
00:12and relevant content for the 21st century. This podcast looks at how Scotland is doing
00:17its efforts to be cleaner and greener for the next generation. In this episode, in partnership
00:21with energy group E.ON, you hear all about future-proofing Scotch whisky. This includes
00:27sustainability in all its forms, from water and energy use to promoting diversity. This
00:32content comes from a panel discussion held at the Scotch Whisky Experience in Edinburgh
00:35recently, chaired by me, in front of more than 40 guests from across the whisky industry.
00:40The expert panel at the event comprised James Cottrell, Director of B2B Sales for E.ON,
00:46Ruth Piggan, International Sustainability Director at the Scotch Whisky Association,
00:50Don Maskell, Director of International Centre for Brewing and Distilling at Heriot-Watt University,
00:56and Ronald Almonds, Environmental Sustainability Manager at Chivas Brothers. But before we hear
01:01from our panel of experts, I asked Simon Duncan, Director of Energy and Infrastructure Solutions
01:06at E.ON, why supporting industry discussions are so important. Oh, it's incredibly important,
01:11an event like this to E.ON. Really, sustainability is at the heart of everything we do. We believe
01:17it's truly on us to make new energy work for our customers. So, working incredibly hard and well
01:24with the whisky industry is something that's really important to us, and being a part of this
01:30and helping them reach their sustainability and net zero goals, yeah, it's a real proud moment for
01:35me. So, let's now hear what the panel members had to say about the future-proofing of Scotch whisky.
01:40Why is sustainability and the environment so important to the Scotch whisky industry when
01:43it comes to future-proofing? Can we perhaps start at the other end with Dawn? It's not just
01:48important to Scotch whisky, it should be important to us all. It needs to be embedded in
01:54everything anyone's doing from now onwards, because if we don't, well, as the Scotch whisky
02:03industry, we're going to have nobody to sell whisky to, nobody to drink it, we'll have nobody to make
02:08it for, we'll have no one to be making it for us, and it needs to be embedded in every aspect of our
02:15lives. That's my succinct answer. Graham actually touched on it in his introductory remarks. I think
02:22we are an industry that looks to the future because we are laying down spirit now for our
02:26consumers in the future, so we naturally think about what are the things that may prevent us
02:32getting that to market, what are those things that may risk our businesses before we're able to sell
02:37it. So, I think we've always been quite connected with the future and thinking about what our role
02:42is in getting us there in the best possible way. So, I think it's a part of how we think in the
02:47industry, and I think that really does mean that we do take that longer-term view and really
02:52understand the pressures that are coming in a very different way. Sustainability is a very wide
02:57subject, it can mean a lot of things. Ron, could I ask you, what comes to your mind if you
03:03think of sustainability and whisky, what conjures up? I suppose for me it's landscapes and
03:11natural capital, that's what we rely on. We're a big part of Scotland's
03:20economic, social, cultural landscape. We're reliant on these natural resources that will be
03:27limited, yet we're a growing sector, so we need to be able to show that we're
03:34expanding responsibly. We keep adding water and trying to take it out again, so we're an energy
03:40intensive process. So, how are we going to contribute to Scotland's decarbonisation is
03:47really, really important. So, I think responsibility comes out for me, we need to show
03:53we're responsible operators for the future. And James, what about you, you think of whisky
04:00and sustainability, what comes to your mind? So, this is the obvious thing, so we've got things like
04:05water conservation, farming practices, waste management, biodiversity and conservation,
04:14and of course why I'm here, energy efficiency is a key one. So, distillation is an
04:21energy intensive process, and I think the sustainable distilleries of the future
04:30are going to be looking at energy efficiency projects, so looking at technology from generation,
04:36wind, solar, decarbonisation of heat, they're the kind of the key things which I think are important
04:44moving forward. Thanks James. And Ruth, I think you'd agree that the Scottish Whisky Association has been
04:49leading the way on sustainability before it was more of a buzzword. You launched your first
04:53sustainability strategy back in 2009, which was many years ago. Could you take us through the
04:58journey since that time, when such industry-wide collaboration was probably a very rare thing,
05:03so tell us what's been learned in that time and how the industries come together to deliver
05:07sustainability goals? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of the things that really attracted me
05:12about this sector and this industry, is the passion it's shown and the actual progress it's
05:16shown in the environmental performance, environmental standards, it's set itself since
05:222009, as you say. Now, companies have been doing this themselves as well for longer in some
05:26circumstances, in some topic areas, but that move to collaborate and work together and look at these
05:32shared issues and shared problems is something that was really notable from that very first
05:36strategy. But it wasn't just empty words either, it was looking at the evidence base, it was collecting
05:42that information so that we could continually inform ourselves and look to improve and to move
05:47those standards on. So it wasn't a static picture, so we had ambitions and we exceeded them in almost
05:53all the areas. So I think that was a really strong testament to the work of the companies
05:58involved and the SWA working with those. What we've learnt? Collaboration. It's going to be a
06:05word you hear out my mouth, I'm afraid, all night, but it is utterly critical to what we need to do.
06:10We are really good now at collaborating within our industry. What we now need to step up is
06:16collaborating with others. We need that work to look beyond our distillery gates.
06:21Scope 1 and 2, again, I'll try and avoid jargon where I can, but I'm assuming I'm
06:26talking to a reasonably informed audience. Scope 1 and 2, our distillery footprints, our own
06:32operational impacts and emissions, is something that is absolutely critically important, but it
06:38is by no means the whole part of the picture that we are looking at. The sustainability
06:42strategy launched in 2021 very much started to really expand beyond just looking at measuring
06:50impacts around water to setting standards, looking at water, responsible land use, circular economy
06:56and, of course, emissions, but expanding that now to net zero, to Scope 1, 2 and 3, our value
07:03chains as well as our operations. So we learnt a lot and I do think collaboration really is that
07:08key lesson. It's you go further together, definitely. You share information, you all
07:14progress. If you try and keep it close, then actually you might make great progress, but what
07:18could you do if you work together and open those doors up? Competition law is obviously
07:23really difficult to get round, to get round, sorry, that's not the word, to work with, to make sure
07:30that we actually comply and work together, but there is so much that we can do and there is so
07:35much that we should do and we are doing. So the work programmes we now have in place, I think, really
07:40are testament to the learnings we've taken over the last decade to really look at those four
07:45key pillars that we have to drive the agenda forward and get to where we need to be in the
07:49next decade. Thanks Ruth, we could hear more about that later, but Ronald, obviously you're
07:54Chivas Brothers representative, you're one of the biggest producers of Scotch whisky, you're an SWE
07:58member and you're doing an awful lot in sustainability yourselves. Can you explain how you're
08:02making your operations greener and fit for the future? Yeah, so our ambition, what we're working
08:09towards is we want to integrate sustainability into all of our activities. So I mentioned all
08:15these different roles that we need to get a bottle of spirit to market.
08:23So how do we integrate that into all our operations? Key issues that we're addressing
08:30around carbon, so for our own operations we've got a big ambition to be carbon neutral by the
08:36end of 2026. Not something we can waver on, that's not very far away. Say in terms of
08:45packaging and the sort of material that a consumer might judge us on and see in
08:51market itself, to have all the packaging that we use being recyclable by 2025 being some
08:58really key challenges. Water is important, so we've got a group wide, so Chivas is part of
09:06the Pernod Ricard group, we've got a group-wide challenge to reduce our water efficiency,
09:13improve that by 20% by 2030 and that's part of a wider collaboration with the industry
09:21in terms of a water stewardship approach where we can all take action. So in terms of how we're
09:27going to achieve that, carbon neutral by 2026, we need a diverse approach. So one of our passions
09:36if you like, and across the industry we all have our different strengths, so Chivas has always
09:41been really passionate about energy efficiency. So it's about efficiency first, on the presumption
09:47that low carbon energy sources will be more expensive or less available, we need to get
09:53the demand down first. So our Abalaua distillery had the first working heat recovery system
10:02back in the late 80s, we've taken that a step further, not using an innovative new technology
10:08but a technology that was always there in the distillery doing something else and applied that
10:13to our stills so that we can recover even more heat. That gets us to a healthy position
10:20that we can then start thinking about well what alternative sources of energy are we going to use.
10:25So that depends on your location, are you connected to the grid, if you're not in terms of gas for
10:32example then you might use a biofuel drop-in in the interim until we have a longer view
10:38on the availability of that sort of fuel. Electrification can be an option, so we have a
10:44distillery on Orkney, Scapa distillery, it has a surplus of wind power so there is a logic that
10:51says let's look at electrification in that case. And then what do we do about the rest?
10:58Well we've established that if we can convert all our byproducts into a gas, so rather than them
11:05going into a cow you now build a mechanical stomach to do that, in theory we can meet the
11:12residual heat demand using our byproducts. So that's a really strong starting point but this
11:18material is already valuable, it's going into the livestock sector so we need to find a balancing
11:24point given that we're growing, that we haven't really clarified yet but
11:30our strategy is that mixed approach of reduced demand, find alternatives and if we need to we
11:37can convert everything that we have in terms of byproducts. In terms of water for example,
11:45the technologies that will give us enhanced heat recovery, they also have a side benefit, so at the
11:50moment the more constrained distilleries they'll be using a cooling tower that consumes water,
11:57if we can just recover that heat then that's a big reduction in water consumption for a distillery
12:03that needs it, can be up to 20%. And then in terms of packaging it's all about focusing on
12:08how can we take material out without affecting the perceived value of the product by the consumer
12:15or can we do some education that avoids some of the different choices that they might make.
12:22So what we've achieved so far for example on Card is about 1300 tonnes of material have been
12:29removed from the supply chain as part of restages and repackaging and more recently as part of the
12:36Chivas Regal 12 restage for example, again 1300 tonnes of glass removed as part of that,
12:43but I think there's still a long way to go especially with the packaging and the piece
12:48that the consumer sees. Thanks John, there's a lot happening there obviously. One thing I've
12:54written about before in the whisky report you've all got is your investment in what's called
12:58mechanical vapour recompression, so perhaps you can explain what that is in a way we can understand
13:05and also which is very interesting I think is it's an open technology so you've shared that
13:09technology with your competitors to help them reach their targets. Can you explain a bit more
13:13about the technology and why you decided to make it open source for the industry?
13:19Yeah so as I said we're really passionate about heat recovery, so mechanical vapour
13:25recompression is the technique we're using and that's based on the premise that rather than
13:32using the condenser on one of the stills, it's generally the wash still, rather than using that
13:38as a means of cooling your spirit you change the way you think about it and use it as a heater.
13:44That only works if you're making spirit of a certain type, it's not a technology that
13:49works for everyone and this is not novel at all, so MVRs are currently used if you're making,
13:56if you're trying to take water out of a liquid product for example, we make pot ale syrup as a
14:01company. MVR technology is used there to take the heat out of the syrup you've just made and use it
14:08to preheat the pot ale that you want to evaporate water from and that is a lot more efficient.
14:15So we're using the still as a heater, we're now generating hot water and if we put that under a
14:20slight vacuum steam will come off that, we pass that through a fan to produce high pressure steam
14:27and the energy you require to do that, to run that fan is one twelfth of the energy you would require
14:34if you were generating fresh steam. So it's from an energy point of view it's a no-brainer
14:39but remember electricity is a lot more expensive than the gas or the oil you might procure,
14:44so there's an economic question there but that balance is moving and shifting that means it can
14:51be both economically and carbon viable to take that forward. So that's the approach we've taken,
15:02so it was one of those questions you know, why can't we take this and do it there? We piloted it
15:07at Glenn Tucker's distillery and that's now had a full installation in terms of MVR and it's
15:15not a heat recovery on every still, so we use three MVRs on the wash stills, two TVRs which is
15:24the original heat recovery technology and then one still to create hot water for
15:32elsewhere in the process. That combination gets us from about eight kilowatt hours for a litre of
15:38spirit down to just under four, so a really really big jump reduction in the amount of energy that
15:45you require. In terms of why share it, that's quite an economic advantage, generally we're saying this
15:55is a great example of us wanting to put collaboration ahead of competition,
16:03my rationale is slightly different, Chivas has got a great blending heritage,
16:09we don't quite know how we're going to be judged on some of our products in the future
16:13and we don't just make a blend using our own products, we all need each other's spirit and
16:20that means you're only as good as your weakest link and that's a fantastic logic for why we
16:26chose to share this technology and that isn't entirely novel in itself, so we collaborate as a
16:34sector and we tell each other what works, we don't always tell each other how it works and that's
16:41maybe what is different this time, so we've made not just the case study but the basis of design
16:47open source for people to see and we've run an event, I think we had about 130 attendees to
16:55speak to the engineers that developed it, learn about the commissioning and implementation issues
17:01and hopefully that can then be taken away and shared by others to make us all more sustainable.
17:08Thanks John, it's good to hear about the example of collaboration in the industry
17:12and then James turned to you from Aeon, we talked a bit about energy tonight but can you say a bit
17:16about how you're working with the industry on sustainability projects? Yeah of course, so first
17:21of all Aeon recognises the importance of sustainability in the whisky industry, what we
17:28want to do is forge long-term partnerships and deliver the solutions that it needs to ultimately
17:35get to net zero and deliver the sustainability projects. I think there's one example we can
17:45talk about, we've worked with Diageo recently, so we've recently installed a solar farm up at their
17:52living site, so that's one example. We're also working with other parts of the whisky industry,
18:00so a big thing obviously, we can put generation in, we can try and bring cost down there, bring
18:07cost security because we've lived in a pretty uncertain world recently and we've seen big
18:12fluctuations in energy prices. I think one of the key ones and I alluded to it before, it's a
18:22consuming industry, it's got lots of processes that consume energy, one of the big
18:28things is the decarbonisation of heat and the electrification of heat, so we've been developing
18:36very specific heat pump solutions which provide both cooling and heating, heating at high temperature
18:42also up to about 95 degrees. We're looking at the next generation of heat pump where we can go even
18:48higher with those temperatures as well. I think innovation sits at the heart of
18:56things as well, so it's coming up with the latest technology which will help people
19:02get to where they need to be from a sustainability point of view. I guess energy efficiency is a key
19:09one as well, so what can you do with what you've got better? We look at building energy
19:16management systems, we look at how you use your energy, we map your energy but then we also tell
19:23you how to bring the energy down that you're using, so that's the first step. We then look on
19:30to renewable energy sources like wind and solar and biomass,
19:36and then the decarbonisation of heat, obviously a very big one, if we can get that right
19:44then that'll really get them to the goals in terms of CO2 reduction and things like that.
19:51Again, you want to focus on what you do best which is making whisky at the end of the day
19:58and that's what you want to invest in. A company like ours can come in and obviously we can
20:03provide investment into all of these technologies that we're talking about,
20:08we do on-site off-site power purchase agreements and things like that, so we're working with the
20:14industry on those things. Thanks James. So is decarbonisation one of the main things that you're
20:21working with the sector on? Absolutely yeah, I think it's the key one and I think we said at
20:27the beginning it's not just the whisky industry, there's some common themes, so we've got
20:33decarbonisation, getting to net zero, we're also looking at resilience, so we've got to keep the
20:40lights on, we've got to keep the whisky flowing and then there's cost and net zero doesn't come
20:47cheap and I was just discussing with Ronald before, there's a lot of challenges with the
20:54electricity networks, so when you're doing these solutions you've got to connect them
20:58to the grid. Things like a heat pump, it uses more energy so you need to look at your,
21:05some of these places are old, you haven't got much electrical headroom so you need to bring
21:09in new connections and there's certainly challenges there, so yes sustainability
21:16is definitely the main thing but there are other challenges which I was just
21:21talking about then, so yeah lots of work with the whisky industry and wider industries as well,
21:30common problems and ones that we're looking to solve. Okay thanks James and turn to you Dawn,
21:36obviously you're here from the International Centre of Brewing and Distillings, you're looking
21:39very far in the future I'd imagine doing research and working with the industry,
21:42can you give some examples of how you're working with scotch whisky companies and supply chain
21:46to help them future-proof with a focus on sustainability?
21:50So there's different ways that companies can work with us, so we have
21:59PhD projects with companies, both with companies and with the Scotch Whisky Research Institute
22:09as well, so it's projects that can benefit everyone across the industry as well, we have had
22:21projects that have been funded through knowledge transfer partnerships where someone is embedded
22:31in a company but works with the company but also with the university, it's a way of getting,
22:39as it does what it says on the tin, it gets knowledge, sort of university knowledge embedded
22:44into companies and there's good government funding for those, those are a real opportunity
22:51and also all the way down to innovation grants, so very small projects that may only last a few
22:58weeks but where a company needs a small piece of research doing and being able to access the
23:04expertise within the university is a real opportunity and as a university as a whole
23:13it's not just the ICBD that works with the whisky industry, there are many different
23:23areas in which we're already working with the industry and I can foresee working in the future,
23:31so I noticed this week that we are advertising for a new lecturer in sustainable logistics
23:39for example, so there's, over the next couple of years I think there's going to be some really big
23:46opportunities for working with industry in different ways and that actually my bit might
23:56well become more of a conduit for people being able to access different bits of the university,
24:02sort of coming to us saying really wants to do stuff on this, can you connect me with the right
24:06person? I think as the sustain, as people get more embedded in the sustainability challenges because
24:16you know the easy wins have been achieved and it gets, this is where it gets more challenging
24:22because as people have said that those dates are barrelling towards us quite quickly
24:28relatively, that be more expertise required from sort of those who are working with
24:39industry, working with research that can have the opportunity to think a little bit more
24:46obscurely and out the box sometimes. Sounds good, so we're fortunate to have that expertise in Edinburgh
24:51in Scotland and is there any examples of research you're doing you could give us some with the
24:57industry recently you might want to talk a bit more about? I have a PhD student at the moment
25:01for example the one with the Scotch Whisky Research Institute and she is, her project
25:08is actually for looking at co-fermentation for new make spirit quality, looking at
25:17sustainability in terms of water footprint and what that does to whisky flavour and aroma.
25:25So the Scotch Whisky Regulations as we all know says we have to use yeast, it doesn't say which
25:32yeast we have to use, it doesn't say how we have to use those yeasts, so are there opportunities
25:38with it, if you are maybe want to use higher gravities so that you get more alcohol out of
25:48each fermentation, are there opportunities with, you have your distilling
25:57strain but actually changing the parameters around gravity, changes the stress your yeast is
26:04under, it'll change the metabolism and the flavours that are produced, can you balance that by
26:10combining with another yeast that will balance that out or for creating new whiskies are there
26:19opportunities around really new interesting flavours and possibilities around that whilst also
26:26working with higher gravities allowing us to reduce that or save water in those ways.
26:35We've also got another PhD project that's recently started with the ASIO which is looking at
26:43the use of AI and fermentation and thinking about sustainability in terms of having a better
26:56understanding of what we're doing and if we change one thing the likelihood of the things we're going
27:03to change and are there sort of gains that we can make in the process through having a better
27:09underpinning knowledge and being able to predict more accurately what will happen when we change
27:17things because there's things like when you think about fermentations and wooden washbacks
27:26and what's happening with the climate and what's happening in terms of our temperatures
27:32over winter, our temperatures over the summer and that's going to change, if it gets much warmer
27:39it's really going to change how our yeast are performing during fermentation so it's, you know,
27:45things like that are going to be important for us to be considering.
27:49Lots to consider there, especially AI, I think the interesting topic to cover is a whole
27:52different topic, I suppose, that's part of sustainability but it'd be good to hear more about
27:56that at some point. Don, what have you got coming up? We've got some new courses coming up
28:00for new areas of research. Yep, so we've got a new MSc under development at the moment,
28:10in a development phase at the moment, doing all the paperwork and designing it but it's going to
28:15be, the principle of it has been approved by the university, so it'll be a MSc in
28:22advanced sustainability for brewing and distilling, so it'll be looking at everything through
28:29raw materials, supply chain production process, benchmarking, legislation and trying to
28:40provide an opportunity for upskilling of the workforce in these areas. It will be available
28:46as distance learning, so it will be a globally accessible new programme as well.
28:53Listen to our Sustainable Scotland podcast, it's also brought to you in partnership with E.ON
28:57and all about future-proofing the Scotch whisky industry. If you'd like to discuss partnering
29:00with the Scotsman for an episode of Sustainable Scotland, please email podcastscotsman.com
29:05podcastscotsman.com. And now back to our panel discussion on whisky.
29:09And back to you Ruth, in terms of the work of the SWA and the industry as a whole,
29:13we've talked about energy use in net zero, what do you think are the big challenges
29:17for that in particular, reaching net zero by the deadline, which is coming fast?
29:22There are many challenges and I think time is obviously one which is one we're all conscious of.
29:28I think we have a few categories, there's infrastructure, that is a significant barrier
29:34for us in terms of, and we've heard about the importance of electrification for energy
29:38efficiency technologies, but also energy switching as well, the access to alternative fuels and even
29:46self-generation on site. That infrastructure is becoming quite a constraint at the moment,
29:53and there's been a series of different announcements in Westminster, even within
29:58budget yesterday, which hopefully will start unlocking some of these grid access problems.
30:03But it's something that everyone, every part of the economy is grappling with and we're all
30:07racing to electrify at the moment, so it is a significant challenge and there's a huge demand,
30:12I'm sure, and a long list of people wanting to work with you at the moment. So infrastructure
30:17is really important, but also our fundamental logistics infrastructure as well, that moving
30:21goods efficiently is really critical and making sure we can refuel and recharge and access what
30:28we need to is really important. Another challenge for us is certainly around working with others
30:36and making sure that we can help transform our supply chains and our value chains.
30:41Scope three of net zero, for the manufacturing sector, is always around 80 to 90 percent of
30:46your footprint. It is a significant challenge and one which is out with our direct control,
30:52therefore we need to work with others, we need to look to supporting solutions and also changing
30:58what we are asking for as well, so that we can have those impacts and help support the changes
31:03which are needed in those supply chains. So understanding that footprint, understanding the
31:08detail of where we can focus and where we need to look at pulling the levers that are
31:15within our control and therefore so we can reduce our own demands, but also therefore we can focus
31:22on working with others about where we can help them to decarbonise their operations, which has
31:27a knock-on benefit for us. So I think those are really important. There is a long list,
31:33I don't want to go too long, but I do think the other one to mention is around regulation.
31:38Effective regulation is really important. It can enable, it can provide a level playing field and
31:45it can unlock and remove barriers. It is a really, really important tool that we have,
31:50but inefficient regulation, regulation which doesn't look at the consequences or regulation
31:55outcome focus can tie hands behind the backs of businesses when they aren't seeking to make
32:01progress. So working with regulators, working with governments is really important so that
32:06we can have a shared understanding of those challenges and that is something that we are
32:11really seeking to do and build the evidence and understanding so we can make better regulations.
32:16Okay, sounds good. Obviously some things are outside your control and outside the control of
32:20the SWA or the industry, but what are you doing? An example of how you are supporting the industry
32:24on these numerous challenges, but in practice what the SWA can help, levers they can pull?
32:30So one of the main roles of the SWA is to bring people together. We bring industry together,
32:37we have collaborative working groups, we have sharing technical knowledge and we come together
32:44to solve problems. We also set ourselves the important task of making sure we provide the
32:48evidence and information which can then help inform decisions made in businesses. So the
32:54information for example that we collect around industry emissions profile is really important
32:59because not only is that about us measuring how far and how fast we are going, but actually it
33:03can be broken down and provided to member companies so that they can see where they sit
33:08in amongst their peer group of similar size distilleries or in terms of similar profile
33:15of distilleries. Because as we all know, one of the other things that we have to grapple with is
33:19no one distillery is the same. So the information and evidence and that sharing is really important.
33:26So we have various work programmes under all of our four pillars and some of those pillars are
33:31actually more a bucket for other pillars of activity because land is not just about where
33:36our grain comes from. But it is that programme of activity, the information and evidence,
33:42the sharing of knowledge and then the tools that can then inform member decisions on the ground.
33:48Okay, lots of pillars.
33:51We've got a lot to hold up.
33:53And James, obviously you're an important part of the supply chain. You're on your work close with
33:57the industry. Is anything coming up that you've got planned you can share at the moment? Because
34:01you've got lots of things coming up that you can't share, but anything you can tell us about
34:04that will help the industry along the road to net zero?
34:06Yes, I think one of the big things, and I touched on it before, is it's like big sort of on
34:13and off-site power purchase agreements. So solar and wind. So essentially,
34:21you've got a site and there's lots of land around the site up here. You've got rooftops.
34:27In terms of an on-site PPA, we can put solar on the roof spaces. We can put solar on land. We can
34:33put wind turbines on land and obviously give the industry renewable generation sources.
34:43Gives them a bit of resilience around cost as well and helps them get to the net zero goals.
34:51If you haven't got the space, then we can obviously look at doing off-site PPAs. So we can
34:57build a wind farm or a solar farm somewhere else and obviously sleeve the benefit that to the
35:03business. I think there's quite an innovative one. We've just invested in a sort of a bit of
35:10a start-up company called Naked Energy and they have a product which is a solar and thermal
35:17panel combined. So you're generating electricity, but you're also generating heat. The heat can go
35:26on to then power heat pumps and we can also look at putting it into absorption chillers for cooling.
35:33So we're doing quite a bit of R&D around that at the moment, but we think it is something that
35:38could be used in the industry, certain applications. And then I think, yeah, I kind of alluded to it
35:45before. The electrification, the heat, cooling, etc. is really important and we're developing
35:52very specific sort of heat pump solutions which will help electrify the heat side of things,
35:59move away from fossil fuels like gas and oil. And then again, energy efficiency starting,
36:08doing better with what you've got. So I was just actually, we have a big control centre in Glasgow
36:15and we're monitoring lots of big companies, so your big supermarkets, Sainsbury's, Tesco's,
36:22people like that, all types of industries. So we can go into those industries, we can meter,
36:30like a factory for example, down to device level. We then monitor in that. So someone said it's
36:38great you've got all this data and we can visualise things, we can see exactly how it's being used,
36:43but who's going to be there to make those efficiencies? Well, we've got a control centre
36:47and we can do that for you. We can do it remotely in some instances and then work with your own
36:53sort of efficiency plans. So that's something that I think is really important. And obviously,
37:03I mean, in Scotland as well, you've got an abundance of biomass. We've got a power plant
37:10that you'll pass on the motorway as you go past Dumfries there. So we've got an abundance of
37:16biomass. So biomass is certainly a solution that we could look at for generating power as well,
37:22and indeed heat. So I'd say they're the kind of the key things we're looking at in terms of working
37:28with the whisky industry. Sounds good, lots going on there and lots coming up,
37:33which are companies we'd like to talk to you about. And Ron, I'll turn to you again.
37:38So I want to ask you about some research you're doing with the James Hutton Institute
37:41at the University of Aberdeen at Glenlivet Distillery, one of my favourite distilleries,
37:45one of, I've got many, one of my favourite distilleries, looking at whisky production
37:50water scarcity. Can you tell us a bit more about that? We haven't talked an awful lot about water
37:53tonight and it's very important to whisky. So can you tell us a bit more about that research?
37:57Yeah, so this is, rather than thinking about reducing our contribution to climate change
38:04problem, it's having a think around what effects is it going to have on us. So water availability
38:10being one of those key issues, so we're using that for cooling. And we've got some quite good
38:17data there in terms of what future flows might look like. The MVR solution I mentioned is really
38:24important there in terms of reducing the amount of heat that goes into a river. But from the process
38:30side, things are a lot less clear. It's really hard to predict what groundwaters, and in particular
38:37spring supplies, are going to behave like. So the research is looking at what is the opportunity to
38:44use nature-based solutions to mitigate the impacts of that climate change. So can we use them to
38:52supplement the amount of water that's coming out of springs using these nature-based techniques? So
38:59what the Hutton and Aberdeen have been trialling at Glenlivet is various different designs of
39:06something called a leaky barrier. So this is a technique that's used in peatland restoration
39:11to keep water on the land and to allow peat to grow. But we're using it to promote infiltration,
39:18to wet the catchment, and to try and see if that will increase the flows during a dry year. So
39:25we can't show you the results from that in that it's a long-term change, but what the
39:32PhD did was to build a model of the catchment to predict the effects, and we've then installed
39:4040 of these small barriers to date. So the model is saying that could lift your
39:46your base flows between one and three percent, and that could significantly increase the amount of
39:51days you can keep operating if that works. So really interesting, but we won't be able to prove
39:57it probably for another 10 years, so there's a commitment to keep monitoring those catchments
40:03and almost use them as a trial catchment. So this was an innovative piece of work, so we won a UK
40:10RI grant to make that happen. They're quite hard to achieve, so we're not able to do that again,
40:19but because of the prospect of the savings, we've got commitment to continue that, so
40:26we're just advertising for another PhD to take that forward, and the intention of that is to now
40:31identify, come up with a tool to predict what are the good locations for these types of measures.
40:38So that will be again of use to the wider sector, but also other water users, to think of people
40:44that rely on a private water supply, in those catchments you might want to take these sorts of
40:48measures, so that's where that's going. Sounds like an interesting long-term project, like the industry itself.
40:55It's getting all about sustainability and the environment, but I also want to talk about the
40:58workforce and diversity, and tomorrow's obviously International Women's Day, and we've got a nice
41:02gender balance here, which is great. So it's become more diverse, the Scottish whisky industry
41:08workforce, but also a lot of work still to be done. Can you tell me what more you think you can do to
41:13make it a more diverse workforce in all ways, not just gender, but all aspects of diversity? Ruth,
41:18I know the SWA works in the industry on diversity, you mentioned that. Can you tell us what's happening
41:22in that area, and how things are progressing, and what more has to be done? Yeah, absolutely. I think
41:28first observation I would have is, it is a good industry in terms of working in diversity, equity
41:35and inclusion. There is good diversity across the industry, although with, as Graeme
41:40mentioned earlier, there are some elements, particularly in their leadership of businesses,
41:45that can be less diverse than other areas. We at SWA have worked for many years with our companies
41:52who are leading in this case, actually as corporates across the UK, around building a
41:59charter, and looking at what we can do in terms of enabling and bringing the conversation to the
42:05forefront of discussion when we're thinking about our businesses, and we're thinking about our
42:08future workforce. So we do have a diversity, equity and inclusion charter, and that has actually been
42:13recently revised and updated, to reflect again the need that these issues aren't static, that
42:19we need to continue to challenge ourselves, continue to push ourselves forward, and to not be
42:24complacent in where we have achieved, but to make sure that we can look to advance the
42:30issue further. So we do share knowledge, again, it's another area of strong collaboration
42:36actually with member companies, working groups, we look at specific issues around women in leadership,
42:41we look at recruitment, and we look at making sure that the whisky industry is a welcoming place.
42:47The first thing for diversity is actually making sure we are thinking about inclusion and thinking
42:52about equity, make sure everyone has that ability to access the industry, to access roles, and so
42:59that we challenge the way that we are thinking about these issues. So it's not just about,
43:03it's not changing the test, for example, about what it is to get
43:09into it, but it's changing the access to that test for us to recruit in a different way.
43:14The same way that if you were at high school and broke your arm ahead of an exam, you would be
43:19given extra time, you'd be given extra support. So we need to be thinking about going actually, what
43:23is that extra support, what is that extra access, to make sure that we can bring in the best skills,
43:29the widest set of opinions, and the skills for the future that we need.
43:34Okay, sounds good. And Dawn, you're obviously working with the future workforce and see
43:39students coming through. Are you seeing a more diverse range of students coming through,
43:42or do you think there's still a lot to be done? I think there's still a long way to go in terms of
43:50gender balance of the students coming through. We see a good range of different nationalities
44:00coming through, or coming to us through our distance learning programme. But in terms of
44:08the gender balance is still quite male heavy, and actually the gender balance, strangely,
44:14is slightly worse than it was in the 1990s. I thought it would have been the other way around,
44:19but unfortunately it's not true. Any thoughts why?
44:23There's various thoughts, but is it the perception of the craft industry by young people, and it's
44:33all white men with beards, and it's not for anyone else? I'd like to think, once they get to us,
44:44that they see a reasonable representation. Gender balance amongst our academic staff is good. We
44:56only have two professors in our group, and both of us are women. I'm the director leading the group,
45:06so when we get our hands on them, we can present them with good role models, and help them and
45:16support them. We are a place where we will support students to the best of our ability,
45:25to make sure everyone can achieve to the best of their ability, and that we can push them through
45:35into that talent pipeline. We've got plans to develop and to grow, and to consolidate that
45:45talent pipeline for the future, for the industry, through something we're calling the Centre for
45:53Sustainable Brewing and Distilling, which would be very much the heart of it, be about a talent
46:00pipeline for the future, for industry, that are equipped with the skills that industry is going
46:08to need for us to be sustainable for many, many years into the future. So, once it gets you,
46:15they get a lot of support to stay in the industry and move forward. It's getting people to get
46:19started in the first place is a challenge. Ronald at Shivvies, can you give examples of what you're
46:24doing in terms of diversity, and how diverse your workforce is, and what initiatives you've got in
46:29place to make it more diverse? Yeah, so I suppose our strategy is focused around three key strands.
46:37So, one's around removing barriers and increasing the pipeline, one's around supporting
46:46family, and then the third's all about human connections, conversations, and raising
46:52awareness of, empowering and raising awareness of different groups and communities. So,
47:01I think there's still an issue with how parts of the industry are perceived, just more
47:07generally actually, in terms of what sort of jobs can you do in a whisky company. So, there's a lot
47:13of work going on in terms of STEM subjects, and working with young people to show them the sorts
47:21of roles that you can do, but also who's doing those roles. So, you know, we do have a good
47:27story to tell, but there are very distinct functional variations within the organisation
47:32that we still need to get over. And then there's probably another area in terms of just
47:39very small measures around how you describe a job, for example, to make sure
47:47you're getting people who feel that they want to apply for that, and it's not a hurdle.
47:52Then in terms of supporting the family, quite a bit around
48:00the opportunity for paternal and maternal leave, for example, opportunities for job share and making
48:07those real. So, I think this year we've said that it's our first job share, which
48:14maybe feels like it should have been a lot earlier than that, but it's good to see
48:18these sorts of things coming through. And then the third strand is about supporting and
48:24empowering different groups. So, there's a youth action network at the company, which is about
48:30bringing together those that are newly graduated or new into the organisation to work together,
48:37but also to raise awareness of what they do and what they're about. So, beyond
48:45that, there's other networks. So, there's Libra focused about empowering women at work,
48:51Fluid, which is about LGBTQ plus community. So, various initiatives, not just to bring people
48:56together, but also to raise awareness of the value that they bring to the company.
49:03So, for me, who's more environmentally focused, again, it's this, the message is diversity is
49:08good. So, in nature, biodiversity is very positive. So, it's just recognising that
49:13to make good decisions for the long-term, you need lots of different perspectives.
49:18Thank you. And then, James, obviously you're part of the supply chain and the energy sector. How
49:22do you see diversity in your sector and what initiatives are in place, not just in E.ON,
49:26but as a whole across the sector that are encouraging more diversity?
49:31Absolutely. I mean, I've worked at E.ON for several years, and when I started working there,
49:37I think diversity and inclusion are absolutely at the heart of everything that we do. We were
49:45recently ranked number 14 as the most inclusive employer in the UK. I think it kind of starts,
49:54you know, you've got to have really sort of robust diversity and inclusion policies.
50:01Again, it's down to recruitment as well, making things more appealing, and we've really got to
50:08promote diversity in our jobs and what we do. I think one of the things I've noticed today,
50:17certainly at E.ON and I've been involved with, is there's lots of sort of education and training
50:22programmes, and these are constant throughout the year, so they've been brilliant, to be honest.
50:31And then I think it's about collaboration and partnerships and working together and
50:37bringing industries together, companies within the same industry and organisations. I think
50:47another real important thing is, in what we do, it's showing real social value. Certainly,
50:55we look more, all the projects that we're working on, we're looking at how we can improve social
51:00value in the community, and I think that's, you know, from an inclusion and diversity point of
51:07view, it makes it more appealing to come and work for companies like E.ON. Thank you very
51:13much for listening to our latest episode of Sustainable Scotland, produced by The Scotsman.
51:17This episode was all about future-proofing Scotch whisky and was delivered in partnership with E.ON,
51:21so please listen out for and enjoy more episodes of Sustainable Scotland
51:24on our main podcast platforms. This episode was presented by me,
51:28Rosemary Gallagher, and produced by Andrew Mulligan.