The ‘Palestinian Nelson Mandela’? France 24 speaks to son of Marwan Barghouti
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00:00Now what happens the day after the war is over in Gaza?
00:04Israel is set on its aim to destroy Hamas the militant and the political body that's governed since his takeover of the strip in
00:112007 now one hope for many Palestinians in the territory is a man
00:15They say could be there Nelson Mandela more one Bahuti Israel considers him a terrorist. He's been in prison for two decades
00:23Convicted of five counts of murder
00:24he denies the charges including that he was leader of the second infatata the major Palestinian uprising of the
00:31against the occupation of Israel between 2000 and 2005
00:35Before that he was a key political figure for Palestinians working with Israel on the Oslo Accords towards peaceful
00:41Coexistence and there's a new documentary about Marwan called tomorrow's freedom. Here's a preview of that trailer
00:54I
01:02Won was a legitimate leader. He became a symbol of the broader Palestinian resistance
01:10And I think the Palestinians with their hearts with their will can defeat this israeli occupation in the future
01:16If you dare take on the responsibilities and positions, or maybe you are taking a tremendous risk
01:22Here in this street, it was the first time my father's car was hit
01:33Well joining me from London Sophia Scott the film's co-director and from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank Arab
01:40Bahuti Marwan's son good to see you both and thank you both for talking to us here on French 24 this evening Sofia to
01:47start with you
01:49Marwan gave and it pretty much won Western interview that exists that's out there. It's Channel 4's Lindsay Hilsum
01:56I've heard you talk about how that was the moment that you knew little about him
02:00You saw it and that was the moment you said you wanted to make this film
02:05Yeah, I mean my sister and I had been working in Lebanon
02:08And his name was being mentioned by by many
02:11Palestinians and Lebanese as this possible Mandela for the Middle East and we found that very catchy. It's a very big statement
02:18So we went on a journey to try and discover who this man was
02:21And Lindsay Hilsum's interview at the time done a few years after Marwan was arrested really showed us who?
02:29Marwan was you know, he's very charismatic when he speaks and we feel like that. He speaks from the heart to be honest
02:36And at this time now we feel like his voice is very very much needed
02:40You know, he believes in unity and he believes between peace in Israel and in Palestine
02:46You had no access to Marwan throughout the documentary given that I think he's certainly in the last few months
02:52He's been in solitary confinement. We're gonna speak about that with a Arab in a moment
02:56But it's worth saying this was filmed before October the 7th
02:59There's a story through the eyes of the family and some significant Israeli voices, too
03:05Yeah, I mean it was very important for us to not just speak to Marwan's family and people that were close to him on
03:11The Palestinian side but equally on the Israeli side
03:14Because at the end of the day there needs to be peace between two sides
03:17You know and before Marwan was arrested
03:19he was working with a lot of Israeli politicians including Yossi Bailin who you see in the film and
03:24These people have called for his release from day one. They recognize that Marwan is a leader. He's a political figure
03:31A figure that the Middle East really needs at this time and Yossi Bailin you mentioned former Israeli Justice Minister
03:38He would travel is this right?
03:39He would travel with Marwan sometimes when they were looking at and trying to work on the Oslo Accords back in the 90s
03:46Yeah, absolutely. I mean Marwan was there at the head of the table always until the last minute with the Oslo Peace Accords
03:52He was the one pushing
03:53For peace. He was the one that was trying to keep the Palestinian people happy
03:58But it was very difficult when Israeli settlements were expanding across the West Bank when actually they should have been
04:04diminishing with the Oslo Peace Accords
04:07Arab
04:09You were I think 11 when your father was in prison
04:12Tell me about your life since then what access you've had to see him in prison and a sense of you know
04:19Well, you haven't seen him I think for 18 months now. I just it's given me that sense of your brief meetings with him
04:25How it works?
04:27so
04:29until
04:30You know after my father was arrested and kidnapped illegally from Ramallah
04:36I was 11 years old back then and after that I
04:40had to see him then in in court and
04:44Which is covered in the film and after that I would see him twice or twice a month
04:50Until I turned 16 years old and after 10 years old
04:54I would see him once every three years sometimes three years. It depends and they never give you any
05:00Reason why they give you or don't or they don't give you the permission and
05:06During the visitation. It's a very tiring and exhausting
05:10When you go for almost 20 hours
05:13To have a 45 minute visitation where we have glass between us
05:18We never would never allow to touch each other. I haven't touched him since he was in prison and
05:25But but at the same time when I see him and when I see
05:31Positivity and optimism that he has always you are never seen him upset. I've never seen him
05:37worried about the future he's
05:39always gone always at ease and knows that we Palestinians have
05:45Just a cause and he dedicated his life for this cause so you can see all of that during the visitation
05:53I'm alright to say that you've when you see him
05:56You're usually given about 45 minutes in the last certainly going back months now since you last didn't takes you pretty much a full day
06:03to
06:04Organize a transport to wait until you can see him and that you you've kind of taken up the position over the years of being
06:09His unofficial library as well. Tell us about that
06:14So, I think that it's it's very important for people to know that my father is
06:20Is an
06:22academic and he holds a PhD in political science and this is why we have been
06:29Able to always secure the books. It's always important for him to have his books and
06:36He's someone who reads between eight to ten books a month I
06:40Still remember when he wants when I once asked him to send me his favorite books
06:44He sent me a list of 180 books and I had very time to choose between them
06:51So he had to choose one
06:53after one so this is the
06:55Person that he is but I think that the treasure that we have in our family is my mother
07:02my mother is the one who founded the international campaign to
07:05Release my father and she went all over the world
07:08Partners with a very prominent leader around the world to take his message all over
07:14I think that it's been a success because now he's getting the attention that he deserves in my opinion
07:21I think I've heard you say in the past that if you spoke for an hour about your father
07:24You could speak for a day about your mother Fadwa a lawyer
07:28Global campaigner for more one who actually met Nelson Mandela to highlight your father's case. He's been to Robben Island. Tell us about that
07:36Yes, 11 years ago
07:38the international campaign to free Marwan Barghouti and
07:41Palestinian political prisoners was launched from Nelson Mandela's set in Robben Island and that was all
07:47after my mother's efforts of connecting with the great and
07:53late
07:54leader Ahmad Qatrada who spent 26 years in prison with Nelson Mandela and Ahmad Qatrada has been
08:01a father figure and
08:03Great leader who led the international campaign until he passed, but also there is a lot of
08:11international leaders that were
08:13supportive of this campaign and after that this campaign took off and it's very active in
08:19France
08:21different parts of Europe in South Africa
08:24In fact, we I just came back with Sofia from South Africa where we had amazing screenings and at the same time
08:32I learned so much about South African history and the similarities between South Africa and Palestine and the similarities between
08:39Nelson Mandela and my father as well
08:43When you look at the situation
08:46With Israel right now given that there's been a seismic shift
08:50And you say Arab you haven't spoken to Marwan for 18 months geopolitically since October the 7th is a hugely
08:58Different situation. What do you think your father would do if he was released?
09:03Does he still see himself as a potential future?
09:07Palestinian leader I
09:10Think that it's I want to be mindful and respective to the people of Palestine because this is something that the Palestinian people
09:16have the right to
09:18Decide not him not us as a family for me. All I worry about is that my father
09:25Becomes safe because as we know after October the 7th
09:28he's been going through very very tough times with all the torture and all the
09:34Targeting of him the conditions that is going through a very are really horrible
09:39Like of course, they sent him to solitary confinement. They keep
09:43Transferring him between prisons. They don't give him enough food. He lost already 10 kilograms
09:49He's been attacked physically and beaten up physically and we know that he has injuries that he didn't get any medical treatment
09:56But the day after October this the day after
10:01Is hopefully and there is a ceasefire for the genocide that is taking place
10:05I think that my father regardless of his position would
10:08play a very important role in unifying the Palestinian people and bringing political partnership between
10:15The political party and he would support as he's been a big supportive of the two-state solution
10:22because he's been working for the two-state solution for more than 30 years and the only
10:28reason that he
10:32Because he knew that there was no hope and there was no seriousness in the Israeli side of the two-state solution
10:39But he's willing to do so
10:42So here for those watching France 24 right now just trying to get a sense of the complexities of
10:49politics in the Palestinian territories, there was a recent poll held in which
10:54certainly
10:55Mawaan Bahouti came out on top of it
10:58If you were going to have a politician take control when you looked compared to Mahmoud Abbas the Palestinian Authority the 88 year old
11:03Amora band organization really for many Palestinians now Ismail Hania as well the leader of Hamas
11:09He came out on top and go back to 2021 where well
11:12We haven't had elections what 18 years in the Palestinian territories Mahmoud Abbas called them. It looked like
11:18Mawaan
11:19Bahouti was going to win and then cancelled them
11:22So from your work and from speaking to Palestinians and you're kind of going from root to the fruit of not knowing anything and suddenly
11:28No, yeah everything
11:30Investing yourself. What sense do you have that if he was released what that path could be? I
11:37Mean we spent, you know a good three years going in and out of Palestine and we spoke to a varied
11:44Group of people from you know, university students to people in the market buying fruit and it was always
11:5199% of the time it was like it was the conversation was Mawaan Bahouti is our natural leader, you know, he's one of us
11:58He's a man of the street
12:00He's he's not corrupted
12:03He's spent so much time in jail now educating future Palestinians
12:07He himself has gone on to be more educated than before. So I think he would be the natural leader
12:13I think as I've said, it's definitely not my my position to
12:17Say but I can only repeat what I heard on the street and that's the power of
12:21Documentary film when you go in there with a camera and you ask questions to a variety of people
12:26You know, it's hard to ignore the power that Marwan has over over Palestinian people and I must just add to it that it's
12:34Really important at this time to to look at Hamas and Fatah
12:37You know Marwan can speak to people that might have voted for Hamas in the past and what Palestine needs now is a peaceful
12:45Leader that can lead people to a non-violent future to be a neighbor of Israel
12:50And I think it's in Israel's interest as well
12:52They have a leader like Marwan Baghouti who can who can play that role and bridge the different factions bridge bridge
12:59You know be a unifying figure
13:02Israeli officials claiming that yes Marwan back in the 90s was interested in peace
13:05But their claim is that he turned his back on it frustrated as you talked about Arab
13:10You know, there was a key player in the second Intifada that he was behind some key units as well, which he denies
13:17He says he's a political prisoner. I just wanted to know Sophia briefly from you about
13:22Your sense now do you have a right-wing coalition in Israel if you look outside of that the u.s
13:28Do you have any sense of what the u.s. Officials think obviously Israel makes its own decisions, but there is powerful
13:34persuasive voice from Washington
13:37You know, I think that we need to see a very strong figure a very strong voice from the u.s
13:43And from Israel put forward what they feel is needed now
13:48You know as I've said we just came back from South Africa in South Africa
13:52There was Nelson Mandela
13:53But there was also to clerk on the other side and it took those two people to build a bridge and unity
14:00And I think at the moment we don't see that in Israel with Benjamin Netanyahu
14:04Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of people that would like to see him
14:08Change and be replaced by someone else who that is. I don't know
14:12You know, I think this film really matters
14:14I think it needs to be seen amongst the American political elites as well as elsewhere, you know in the UK and France across Israel
14:23Yeah, great to speak to you both. I know it's on Apple TV
14:26It's also screening around the world including in Toulouse in a few weeks time as well Arab Mahmoudi and also Sophia Scott
14:32Thank you both so much for joining us this evening on worldview
14:36Thank you so much