House Committee On Energy And Commerce Holds A Hearing On 'Accusations Of Ideological Bias At NPR'

6 months ago

The House Committee on Energy and Commerce held a hearing on Wednesday on the 'accusations of ideological bias at NPR'.

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Transcript

00:00:00Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations will now come to order.

00:00:07The Chair recognizes himself for a five-minute opening statement.

00:00:11Thank you to our witnesses who are before us today to testify on National Public Radio,

00:00:15NPR.

00:00:16I do have to note for the record that we invited NPR's CEO, Catherine Marr, who declined to

00:00:23appear today, to discuss NPR's alleged past efforts to pressure conservative and moderate

00:00:29voices into silence.

00:00:31Hopefully we can work out a time for her to appear to testify before this committee in

00:00:34the near future.

00:00:36The only reason not to appear in front of this committee at some point in the near future

00:00:41is if the allegations are both true and NPR doesn't care.

00:00:47Last month, longtime NPR business editor, Uri Berliner, wrote an article published by

00:00:52conservative news website, The Free Press, accusing his then-employer of having a, quote,

00:00:58absence of viewpoint diversity, end quote.

00:01:00Berliner criticized NPR for not reflecting the viewpoints of all Americans.

00:01:05Instead, Berliner wrote, NPR is, quote, the distilled worldview of a very small segment

00:01:11of the U.S. population, end quote, meaning the people clustered around the coastal cities

00:01:17and college towns.

00:01:19It was alleged that in recent years, NPR's extremely progressive viewpoints are evident

00:01:23in its coverage of major news stories.

00:01:26For example, just a couple of days ago, in an article on a recent bill regarding TikTok

00:01:31and foreign-owned social media, the author claimed that Congress had no, quote, direct

00:01:37evidence, end quote, that TikTok was a threat.

00:01:40That's simply not true.

00:01:42If NPR had listened openly and fairly to comments TikTok's own CEO made before this committee

00:01:48last year, they would know there was no real firewall between the Chinese Communist Party

00:01:55and the American company.

00:01:58They also failed to mention, which would have made it fair, they failed to mention the three-hour

00:02:03security briefing that this committee had before the committee took up the bill.

00:02:10That type of biased viewpoint affects the way I and many others look at NPR's coverage

00:02:14of ongoing anti-Semitic riots at universities across the country.

00:02:19NPR's coverage of these chaotic protests has been borderline encouraging, nostalgic even,

00:02:25evoking the good old days of protesting the Vietnam War.

00:02:29NPR reporters have dismissed evidence suggesting external groups may have had a role in coordinating

00:02:35these protests, despite contrary reporting by outlets like the Wall Street Journal.

00:02:41As far back as 2005, NPR editors were aware of and trying to address a question that was

00:02:47bothering listeners.

00:02:48How truly national is NPR?

00:02:52For those in rural communities and in smaller towns like the folks I represent, nationally

00:02:56produced NPR news programs are not relevant and not of interest.

00:03:04Nationally produced NPR news programs often simply do not broadcast content that reflects

00:03:09– it doesn't have to be complete – but reflects some of their values and their culture.

00:03:14As a result of adopting a mostly progressive framing in so much of its reporting, NPR is

00:03:21losing audience share.

00:03:24At its peak in 2017, NPR had over 30 million weekly listeners.

00:03:28By 2022, NPR had lost 6.6 million weekly listeners.

00:03:35As a result, NPR has had substantial budget deficits and had to lay off up to 10 percent

00:03:43of its staff.

00:03:45What was intended to be a media organization that brought together millions of Americans

00:03:49across geographic, socioeconomic, and ideological boundaries to discuss the issues, to discuss

00:03:56life, the arts, and culture, has now turned into what appears to be a progressive propaganda

00:04:01purveyor using our taxpayer dollars, no less.

00:04:06Now, to be clear, the local public radio station affiliates are not what I'm talking about.

00:04:11I would make the distinction that they have often been more responsive – have more responsive

00:04:16programming and local public interest in civic stories.

00:04:20I've generally thought the local radio stations in my part of Virginia mostly provide a public

00:04:25service and, in many cases, are useful in helping to preserve local heritage.

00:04:30NPR claims federal spending accounts for less than 1 percent of its annual operating budget.

00:04:35Although NPR receives only 1 percent in direct federal grants, local radio stations may use

00:04:41any portion of their federal grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to pay

00:04:45for NPR's membership dues and programming fees.

00:04:49And that figure is roughly 30 percent of NPR's revenue.

00:04:54This hearing is a chance for us to take stock of whether we should be using federal taxpayer

00:04:58dollars to promote one ideology to the exclusion of others.

00:05:01If NPR wants to create a one-sided ideological content that marginalizes a substantial portion

00:05:08of Americans, they can fight it out with other media companies for market share and pay for

00:05:14it on their own dime, not the taxpayers.

00:05:18I would prefer NPR to return to its original mission under the Public Broadcasting Act

00:05:21of 1967 to provide objectivity and balance in coverage of controversial subjects.

00:05:28To me, that means representing many different opinions in its news gathering.

00:05:33I want to thank our witnesses again and look forward to hearing your testimony.

00:05:36And I yield back and now recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Ms. Castor, for

00:05:42her five-minute opening statement.

00:05:44Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:05:45Public radio plays an invaluable role in communities across America.

00:05:51Our local public radio stations deliver objective reporting on current events—local, national,

00:05:57and international—that is essential to understanding the complex world today.

00:06:03Much of the reporting and features often are not covered by other outlets.

00:06:09National public radio and local public radio stations also are indispensable at a time

00:06:15when many local newspapers have gone defunct, and the consolidation of media into large

00:06:21corporate conglomerates raises questions of their objectivity.

00:06:27Public radio reporting is particularly crucial in my home state of Florida.

00:06:31Florida public radio stations have a long history of providing critical information

00:06:36to residents and visitors during hurricanes and times of crisis.

00:06:41Just this morning, Tampa Bay's WUSF station was advising neighbors how best to prepare

00:06:47for the dangerous storm season ahead.

00:06:51Radio is a top, trusted choice for receiving news, weather alerts, community opportunities,

00:06:59and understanding the fabric of America.

00:07:02According to a Nielsen report published in June 2023, radio continues to reach more American

00:07:08consumers than any other platform, linear or digital.

00:07:11And journalists who work for public radio stations are often the only reporters covering

00:07:18local stories important to their communities and are frequently working on a shoestring budget.

00:07:24They are the eyes and ears to monitor local and state government.

00:07:29NPR and its affiliate stations produce high-quality programming for a national audience that these

00:07:36local affiliates can choose to air.

00:07:39Shows like Up First or Morning Edition or All Things Considered, Fresh Air, and Tiny

00:07:43Desk keep millions of Americans informed about national news, provide entertainment, and

00:07:49they keep communities connected.

00:07:52National broadcasts regularly feature reports from affiliate stations across the nation

00:07:57and provide listeners with the on-the-ground perspectives on events of national importance

00:08:03through the eyes of the communities where those events unfold.

00:08:07I cannot help but think of the critical Off the Base series by public radio reporter Bobby

00:08:14O'Brien at WUSF back home.

00:08:17Off the Base told the stories of various active-duty retired military and family members to give

00:08:22the civilian community a better understanding of the challenges of military life during

00:08:27the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:08:29The public radio reports reached most of central Florida, with many airing nationally during

00:08:35the wars, when the need for civilian understanding of the dynamics around military deployments

00:08:40and care at home was great.

00:08:42Bobby O'Brien told poignant stories of military families dealing with multiple deployments

00:08:49and how families at home dealt with their life when a service member was in harm's way

00:08:54and after they came home.

00:08:56Despite the clear benefits of public radio, many Republicans have brought us here to discuss

00:09:01an alleged bias at NPR.

00:09:04Republicans say NPR is biased against conservatives, but what they point to are examples of objective

00:09:11journalism.

00:09:13Disagreeing with reporting does not mean the information is biased.

00:09:18Reporters may want to, instead, step outside of the right-wing echo chambers, which have

00:09:24routinely peddled lies and conspiracy theories.

00:09:29This Congress will unfortunately go down in history as the least productive in modern

00:09:32times.

00:09:34Shutdown threats, showdowns, wasted time and taxpayer dollars on witch hunts.

00:09:39A better use of time for this esteemed committee would be spent on asking why guns are the

00:09:44leading cause of death among American children, or finding out whether or not America is prepared

00:09:49for the next pandemic as the avian flu spreads among dairy herds, or how we build on the

00:09:54successes of the Inflation Reduction Act to lower health care and drug costs, or how we

00:09:59solve the costly climate crisis.

00:10:01The list goes on.

00:10:03The valuable time of this committee absolutely should not be spent on investigating the backgrounds

00:10:08of reporters.

00:10:10As one of our witnesses stated in his written testimony, threats to defund NPR based on

00:10:14any perceived failure to cover certain topics or imbalance of political representation in

00:10:20the newsroom strikes at the heart of journalistic freedom.

00:10:23Foreign adversaries like the Chinese Communist Party, Russia's Putin, or Iran's violent

00:10:28theocrats certainly enjoy it when American politicians undermine our own objective journalists.

00:10:34This committee should not do their dirty work for them.

00:10:39Instead, we need to invest in public broadcasting, NPR, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

00:10:45Without federal support, many of the stations serving low-income communities in rural areas

00:10:51would be forced to shut down.

00:10:53Congress decided to invest in public radio more than 50 years ago, in part to serve as

00:10:57a lifeline for underserved communities.

00:11:00Even with a moderate increase in our investment in public broadcasting, it would allow public

00:11:04radio stations and NPR to produce the high-quality content millions of us turn to daily.

00:11:10A strong America depends on freedom of the press, and objective public radio stations

00:11:17should be celebrated in all corners of our country.

00:11:20I yield back.

00:11:23And the lady yields back.

00:11:24Now I recognize the chairwoman of the full committee, Ms. Rogers, for her five-minute

00:11:31opening statement.

00:11:33Good morning and thank you, Chairman Griffith.

00:11:37Since our founding, Americans have fiercely defended the First Amendment to the Constitution

00:11:42and the freedom of the press.

00:11:44As Thomas Jefferson once said, our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that

00:11:48cannot be limited without being lost.

00:11:53Every news outlet and network should be free to express viewpoints, even those I may disagree with.

00:11:59It is a fundamental principle under the First Amendment for news agencies to report on

00:12:03stories however they see fit.

00:12:05It is not, however, a fundamental principle for news organizations to receive public funding

00:12:11to express their viewpoint.

00:12:13We are holding this hearing today to discuss accusations from within National Public Radio

00:12:19or NPR that the organization's D.C. Bureau is actively censoring viewpoints, all while

00:12:25enjoying funding from Americans' hard-earned tax dollars.

00:12:30In responding to these accusations, Speaker Johnson and I agreed that Congress needed

00:12:34to investigate.

00:12:35I will note for the record, we invited NPR's CEO, Ms. Mayer, to participate in today's

00:12:41hearing.

00:12:42She declined to do so, stating that she needed more time to prepare and that she had a conflict

00:12:47with an NPR board meeting.

00:12:49It is especially troubling that an organization funded with taxpayer dollars has mocked, ridiculed,

00:12:57and attacked the very people who fund their organization.

00:13:00As if the problem wasn't self-evident, a 25-year veteran of NPR's National News Desk outlined

00:13:06it in an op-ed just a few weeks ago.

00:13:08Rory Berliner, a long-time journalist and senior business editor for NPR since 1999,

00:13:16has described a culture at the organization, stating, quote, an open-minded spirit no longer

00:13:23exists within NPR, and now, predictably, we don't have an audience that reflects America.

00:13:30Berliner also explained how taxpayer NPR never admitted to its audience how off its reporting

00:13:37was on the debunked Russia collusion story, stating, quote, what's worse is to pretend

00:13:44it never happened, to move on with no mea culpa, no self-reflection, especially when

00:13:49you expect high standards of transparency from public figures and institutions, but

00:13:54don't practice those standards yourself.

00:13:57That's what shatters trust and engenders cynicism about the media, end quote.

00:14:04It was quite revealing for Mr. Berliner that NPR did not want to report stories that could

00:14:11help President Trump's chances of winning the 2020 presidential election, no matter

00:14:16how evidently true or important to the public conversation they were.

00:14:22According to Mr. Berliner, quote, I listened as one of NPR's best and most fair-minded

00:14:27journalists said it was good we weren't allowing the laptop story because it could help Trump,

00:14:33end quote.

00:14:35Moreover, according to Mr. Berliner, he could not find a single registered Republican editor

00:14:40at NPR headquarters.

00:14:43Since many journalists don't affiliate themselves politically, so as to remain objective, this

00:14:50might not sound abnormal, except that Mr. Berliner was able to identify 87 editors in

00:14:57NPR's newsroom who were registered Democrats.

00:15:00Founding NPR board member Bill Seimering put into the original mission statement that NPR

00:15:08should, among other things, speak with many voices and many dialects.

00:15:15According to what we've learned from Mr. Berliner's insight, today's NPR has strayed from their

00:15:21core mission.

00:15:24When an entity that was created by Congress and that receives taxpayer funding strays

00:15:29from their core mission, there needs to be accountability and oversight.

00:15:33The Energy and Commerce Committee will fulfill its responsibility to investigate the allegations

00:15:38against NPR and take appropriate action based upon what we find.

00:15:44That process takes a step forward with today's hearing.

00:15:47I thank our panel of witnesses who will bring to the table a variety of viewpoints about

00:15:53the matter, and I look forward to the conversation.

00:15:55I yield back.

00:16:01I now recognize the Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Pallone, for his five-minute

00:16:05opening statement.

00:16:07Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:16:08This hearing is a complete waste of this committee's time.

00:16:11We're here today solely because Speaker Johnson sees NPR as an easy punching bag as he attempts

00:16:17to placate the most extreme right wing of his party, and he directed the Republican

00:16:22Committee leadership to hold this hearing.

00:16:24It's deeply disappointing that the majority has agreed to play along by attacking NPR

00:16:30in a very disturbing turn, demanding that it disclose the political affiliations of

00:16:34its employees and board members.

00:16:36These are the same tactics employed during the dark days of McCarthyism.

00:16:40I had hoped that that was over.

00:16:42This is 2024, not 1953.

00:16:45But again, this is all being done to distract from the Republican leadership's inability

00:16:49to govern and their failure to fulfill any of their promises on their frivolous investigations.

00:16:55I think this committee is better than this hearing.

00:16:58But the hearing was so rushed that the Republican majority demanded that NPR's CEO Katherine

00:17:03Maher appear with only a week's notice on the same day as NPR's annual board meeting,

00:17:08which has been scheduled in public notice for at least a year.

00:17:11A further evidence of a lack of seriousness, the majority has refused to accept any alternate

00:17:16date offered by NPR, and it's fully understandable that Ms. Maher is not here today.

00:17:21None of this follows the normal committee process for scheduling a witness in good faith.

00:17:26And even if she could have testified, she's only been the CEO for six weeks, yet Republicans

00:17:32would have wanted her to answer for heavily criticized allegations of bias by a former

00:17:37disgruntled employee.

00:17:40And this is particularly absurd, given that NPR's CEO plays no role in editorial decisions

00:17:45and does not control NPR's content.

00:17:47These Republican attacks are unfortunate, considering that public media plays an important

00:17:52role in all of our communities and should be supported now more than ever.

00:17:56The Corporation for Public Broadcasting is a non-profit organization that was established

00:18:01by Congress in 1967 as the steward for federal investment in public media.

00:18:06It serves all Americans with free information, education, and enriching content.

00:18:11NPR, a media organization that produces, acquires, and distributes quality news programming,

00:18:17receives investments from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and plays a vital

00:18:21role in democracy by providing important and unbiased information to our communities.

00:18:27These public investments primarily flow directly to local television and radio stations that

00:18:32are often the last line of defense against growing news deserts, and I have one in New

00:18:36Jersey, where communities really lack any local journalism.

00:18:41And there is a reason that Republican efforts to defund public media have failed for nearly

00:18:4550 years.

00:18:46That's because the American people value the service.

00:18:49Many Americans, especially those in rural areas, rely on public news outlets as their

00:18:53primary source of local information.

00:18:56Only a very small portion, less than 1 percent, of NPR's budget comes directly from taxpayer

00:19:01dollars.

00:19:02In fiscal year 2022, NPR received just over $5.5 million in direct grants from the CPB.

00:19:09And federal dollars that NPR receives indirectly are because local radio stations have chosen

00:19:13to pay NPR for its high-quality programming.

00:19:17If Republicans were truly concerned about journalism and editorial integrity, they would

00:19:22have to recognize that it is actually the vast landscape of right-wing media organizations

00:19:27that have a long history of peddling misinformation, disinformation, promoting partisan agendas,

00:19:33and sowing fear and division.

00:19:35Major conservative networks have paid out vast legal settlements and lost on-air talent

00:19:40who refuse to abandon impartiality and continually lie about our democracy and elections.

00:19:47Why aren't we having a hearing about conservative media and their efforts to stifle alternative

00:19:52views?

00:19:54Just last year, Fox News paid over $787 million to settle a defamation lawsuit after its anchors

00:20:00repeatedly and knowingly lied on-air about Dominion's voting machines.

00:20:05Its owner even admitted under oath that those lies were to help Donald Trump overturn the

00:20:08election he lost.

00:20:10Fox News, One America News, Sinclair, and Breitbart are all examples of media organizations

00:20:15that air biased, false, harmful, and damaging content.

00:20:20Public cynicism about the media doesn't come from NPR.

00:20:23It comes from the right-wing media.

00:20:25This hearing is particularly worrisome because we have a Republican candidate for president

00:20:30who spends a good amount of his time peddling unfounded attacks on the media and the freedom

00:20:34of the press.

00:20:35There are so many other things that we could be focused on today that could improve the

00:20:39lives of the American people, and this is not one of them.

00:20:42With that, I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman.

00:20:47Gentleman yields back the remainder of his time.

00:20:49That concludes member opening statements.

00:20:50The chair would remind all members that, pursuant to committee rules, they have the right to

00:20:55have a written opening statement made a part of the record.

00:20:59But we do ask that, so that we can do this in a timely manner, that any member who wishes

00:21:03to have their opening statement made a part of the record provide those statements to

00:21:08the clerk promptly.

00:21:10We want to thank our witnesses for being here today and taking the time to testify before

00:21:13our subcommittee.

00:21:14You will have the opportunity to give an opening statement, followed by a round of questions

00:21:18from members.

00:21:19Our witnesses today are Howard Husick, Senior Fellow, American Enterprise Institute, Tim

00:21:26Graham, Executive Editor of NewsBusters.org Media Research Center, James Irwin, Federal

00:21:32Affairs Manager for Telecommunications, Americans for Tax Reform, and Craig Aaron, President

00:21:38and CEO, Co-CEO of Free Press.

00:21:42We appreciate you all being here today and I do look forward to hearing from all of you.

00:21:46You are aware this subcommittee is holding an oversight hearing and when we do that,

00:21:49we do have the practice of taking our testimony under oath.

00:21:54Do any of the witnesses have an objection to testifying under oath?

00:21:59Seeing none and no objection, we will proceed.

00:22:03The chair would advise that you are entitled to be advised by counsel, pursuant to House

00:22:06rules.

00:22:07Do any of you desire to be advised by counsel today during your testimony?

00:22:11All right.

00:22:12I see that none have requested counsel.

00:22:16Would each of you rise if you can and raise your right hand?

00:22:20Do you promise and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,

00:22:26so help you God?

00:22:29Seeing that all the witnesses have answered in the affirmative, you are now sworn in and

00:22:32under oath, subject to the penalties set forth in Title 18, Section 1001 of the United

00:22:37States Code.

00:22:39With that, we will now recognize Mr. Husek for five minutes to give his opening statement.

00:22:47Thank you very much, Chair Griffith, Ranking Member Castor, Chair Rogers, and Ranking Member

00:22:51Pallone.

00:22:54I'm Howard Husek, Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

00:22:57I note that I have a background myself in public broadcasting professionally.

00:23:02I was honored to serve on the Board of Directors of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,

00:23:05nominated by President Obama.

00:23:07I was also a documentary film producer at Boston Public Broadcaster, WGBH, where I also

00:23:12served as a reporter and manager for a nightly television, public television news program.

00:23:19I begin my testimony with a reminder of where public broadcasting began, with the Public

00:23:23Broadcasting Act of 1967.

00:23:25Of particular relevance to the current situation in NPR is the mandate from Subpart D, Section

00:23:31396.

00:23:33Public broadcasting, both radio and television, should, it says, and I quote, be responsive

00:23:37to the interests of people both in particular localities and throughout the United States.

00:23:42It is here specifically where I have concerns about NPR.

00:23:47According to the nonpartisan Pew Research Center survey research, 87% of NPR listeners

00:23:52describe themselves as Democrats, 12% as Republicans.

00:23:56In contrast, the major commercial television newscasts are close to 50-50.

00:24:02According to the media tracking firm, Sissian, only one of 10 of the most popular NPR affiliates

00:24:07is found in the South or Southwest, and NPR's slide deck boasts that its programming reaches

00:24:13cultural connoisseurs.

00:24:15As Ray Berliner has put it so well, our news audience doesn't come close to reflecting

00:24:19America.

00:24:21This is not the mark of a national taxpayer-supported program service.

00:24:26I'll discuss both why that's the case, but I'll focus more on ways NPR can be incentivized

00:24:32to serve a broader audience in new and vital ways.

00:24:36These include modest changes in the Public Broadcasting Act, virtually unamended in more

00:24:40than 50 years, even as a revolution in technology has swept over the telecommunications industry.

00:24:47NPR's limited audience is not the result of limited reach.

00:24:51There are more than 1,000 public radio stations across the U.S.

00:24:54Instead, it's come to produce a product which seems not to attract a broad swath of America.

00:25:00That's the result of what the eminent American sociologist Herbert Gans identified in his

00:25:04book, Deciding What's News, Story Selection.

00:25:08Modest changes in the Public Broadcasting Act can foster change in its story roster,

00:25:14as well as help and address a crisis that the committee has already pointed out and

00:25:18that was not anticipated in 1967, the decline of local newspapers, more than 2,000 of which

00:25:24have closed since 2004.

00:25:27Public radio can move to fill this void, as well as to fulfill its mandate, as per the

00:25:311967 Act, to help communities, quote, solve civic problems.

00:25:36To do so, we have to let public radio stations across the country keep more of their taxpayer

00:25:42dollars for their own news gathering, rather than having to send them to NPR in Washington.

00:25:48NPR receives, as the committee has pointed out, little in direct federal funding, but

00:25:52it relies by its own account for 31% of revenues on fees paid by local stations, some of which

00:25:58are required.

00:25:59In other words, the funds which local stations receive from CPB through their community service

00:26:04grants are recycled and go back to Washington.

00:26:07To make matters worse and more difficult for local stations, listeners can access NPR programming

00:26:12over the top, directly through their phones, starving local stations of their financial support.

00:26:19This overall model must be revisited.

00:26:21Public radio news gathering, in order to address the world of today, not that of 50 years ago,

00:26:26must be far more local.

00:26:28Rather than simply getting revenue from local stations, NPR should look to them for journalism,

00:26:33stories that surprise rather than hector, stories that will tell us about the range

00:26:37of dramas, conflicts, issues, celebrations, and communities across the country.

00:26:41The local stations will provide not the fees, but the news itself.

00:26:45In the process, NPR will nurture diversity views, nurture a new generation of journalists,

00:26:51and incorporate their work into its morning and evening news programming.

00:26:55A decentralized NPR will differ from the major television networks, commercial networks.

00:27:01It will be a forum for all kinds of voices, from poets to preachers, minors and mayors.

00:27:07It's worth noting that Pew Research just reported yesterday that majorities of both parties,

00:27:12say local media in their area, are doing their jobs, and that views of local news don't have

00:27:17the same stark political divides that exist within Americans' opinions about national news.

00:27:23Finally, NPR should report regularly, per amended statute, to this Oversight Committee

00:27:30as to progress it's making in reaching a broader cross-section, geographically and demographically,

00:27:36to all Americans.

00:27:37In the process, I believe it will build a new and more successful business model that

00:27:41serves what it's meant to serve, a truly national audience.

00:27:46Thank you very much.

00:27:50The gentleman yields back and I recognize Mr. Graham for his five-minute opening statement.

00:27:53Good morning.

00:27:57Is that on?

00:27:59I represent the Media Research Center, America's preeminent conservative media watchdog organization.

00:28:03It was founded in 1987.

00:28:06I joined up in 1989.

00:28:08We monitor national media outlets on a daily basis and provide daily coverage of the media's

00:28:12tilt at newsbusters.org.

00:28:15Uri Berliner obviously tried to make the point that media bias became a bigger problem when

00:28:20Donald Trump ran for president.

00:28:22We are here to tell you this has been a problem for a very long time.

00:28:27NPR legal reporter Nita Totenberg destroyed the Douglas Ginsburg nomination to the Supreme

00:28:32Court in 1987.

00:28:34Then she tried again with Clarence Thomas in 1991.

00:28:37NPR energetically channeled the accusers of Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh in 2018.

00:28:43And when a man arrived in an Uber on Kavanaugh Street two years ago with weapons and plans

00:28:47to assassinate Kavanaugh, NPR failed to file a single feature story on it.

00:28:54Nita Totenberg could not be found.

00:28:56NPR, a supposed source of civility, didn't demonstrate they cared one bit about this

00:29:02potential political violence.

00:29:05But in March, between morning edition and fresh air, Kavanaugh's accuser, Christine

00:29:10Blasey Ford, was granted an hour of taxpayer-funded airtime to reproduce her unproven charges

00:29:18of teenage sexual assault.

00:29:21Now most of us, what we remember best, as has been mentioned, the exhibit A here of

00:29:27NPR's bias is the New York Post series on Hunter Biden's laptop in October of 2020.

00:29:33Most of the so-called mainstream media tried to dismiss this story falsely as Russian disinformation.

00:29:40But NPR stood out.

00:29:42NPR's so-called public editor, Kelly McBride, quoted Terrence Samuel, NPR's managing editor

00:29:49for news.

00:29:50He said, we don't want to waste our time on stories that are not really stories.

00:29:55And we don't want to waste the listeners and readers' time on stories that are just pure

00:30:00distractions.

00:30:01He dismissed the New York Post stories as a politically driven event.

00:30:06That's interesting, since you could argue, Nina Totenberg's hostile reporting on Supreme

00:30:11Court nominees certainly created some politically driven events.

00:30:16Instead of seeking to investigate the Biden family's influence peddling before the 2020

00:30:20election, NPR's Morning Edition broadcast a story titled, Experts Say Attack on Hunter

00:30:27Biden's Addiction Deepens Stigma for Millions.

00:30:31There wasn't one word in it about Hunter Biden's business practice involving his father, which

00:30:37was the point of the Post stories.

00:30:40This pattern continues today, when the House Oversight Committee at a hearing in March

00:30:44where Hunter Biden was supposed to appear.

00:30:47NPR's so-called All Things Considered wouldn't consider a feature story on it.

00:30:54NPR covered the Pelosi-picked panel, the House January 6th Committee, live for every single

00:30:59minute.

00:31:00And then it couldn't do a two-minute story on the Biden impeachment inquiry.

00:31:04Instead, NPR's homepage was topped the next morning by their hot story, New Details on

00:31:09Rupert Murdoch's British phone hacking scandal of 2011.

00:31:15NPR's website did have a Biden mention.

00:31:18White House reporter Deepa Shivaram had a TikTok-like video shoot on how President Biden

00:31:24grabbed a trendy boba tea in Las Vegas under the headline, Food Stops Can Tell You a Lot

00:31:30About a Campaign.

00:31:32NPR, that network of civility, also has encouraged chaos and disorder in our society.

00:31:38In 2020, NPR's blog Code Switch, with the slogan Race in Your Face, promoted a new book

00:31:44titled In Defense of Looting on the NPR Politics podcast in 2021.

00:31:52They promoted a book by Yale law professor Elizabeth Hinton saying that protests against

00:31:57police shouldn't be called riots, they should be called rebellions.

00:32:03On fresh air on April 15, 2023, the movie critic John Powers praised the movie How to

00:32:09Blow Up a Pipeline, hailing it as hugely timely.

00:32:14So this is what NPR is doing.

00:32:16They can devote our taxpayer dollars to getting behind looting, rioting, and blowing up pipelines.

00:32:23And yet, NPR represents the Republicans as uniquely extreme.

00:32:27We've seen this throughout this Congress, where they come on and say, oh, the hard-right

00:32:31Republicans are ruining everything.

00:32:34They were doing this this morning, discussing Ms. Taylor Greene, but they have had several

00:32:39sappy interviews with Hakeem Jeffries.

00:32:42Steve Inskeep at one said, you'd say to Republicans, drive the car off the cliff, we're not going

00:32:47to grab the wheel.

00:32:48This is the way they treat Republicans, basically as nutballs who are going to drive a car off

00:32:54the cliff.

00:32:55You might understand, that's why we might get a little upset.

00:32:58Thank you.

00:33:00The gentleman yields back now, recognizes Mr. Irwin for his five-minute opening statement.

00:33:04Chairman Griffith, Ranking Member Castor, Vice Chair Lesko, Chair McMorris-Rogers, and

00:33:09Ranking Member Pallone, members of the committee, it is an honor to testify before you today,

00:33:13especially as a former staffer from the other place.

00:33:16It's a shame Ms. Mayer couldn't join us today.

00:33:18Normally, a CEO refusing to meet with her funders would have her funding pulled, but

00:33:22we'll see.

00:33:23ATR is, American Tax Reform, the organization I represent, is one of the leading taxpayer

00:33:28watchdogs of uses of taxpayer money, and we have taken an interest in how public broadcasting

00:33:33has been subsidized by the taxpayer directly.

00:33:36Others have spoken already about the political issues of national public radio, the ideological

00:33:39capture, the fact it no longer represents the American people, if it ever did.

00:33:43But my testimony will take a step back and focus on another problem with continuing to

00:33:47fund NPR.

00:33:48Namely, if all the issues mentioned here today are solved, if NPR was the most neutral, fair

00:33:53media outlet with no ulterior motives, it is still not the role of the federal government

00:33:57to run a radio station.

00:33:59It will not do simply to clean up NPR's current practices because state-funded media in principle

00:34:03undermines a free press, it is unfair to NPR's competitors who do not get federal subsidies,

00:34:09and because NPR is dishonest with the public, as has been mentioned, in its accounting practices.

00:34:13And I say this as someone with very fond childhood memories of NPR, I wouldn't trade the Saturdays

00:34:17I spent listening to car talk with my dad while driving to the dump for anything.

00:34:21But when I grew up and began to pay taxes, against my will, to this radio station I hardly

00:34:26listened to anymore, I began to wonder why this was necessary, especially as it replaced

00:34:30the Boston-accented guffaws of auto mechanics with the self-serious whispers of hysterical

00:34:34Marxists who think bird names are racist.

00:34:36A look at NPR's funding makes one even more skeptical.

00:34:40State-funded media, in general, has no place in a free society.

00:34:44NPR is incapable of objective news coverage precisely because they receive taxpayer funds.

00:34:50No media outlet is immune from influence from their paymasters.

00:34:53But even if we assume that NPR is perfectly free from undue influence by Congress, the

00:34:58federal government, people who cut their checks, how do you suppose they would cover a member

00:35:02of Congress who advocates cutting their funding because he or she does not see running a radio

00:35:06as the proper role of government, or simply can't find the money in that year's budget?

00:35:11On public broadcasting funding and other issues, can such an elected official ever expect fair

00:35:15treatment from NPR in the future?

00:35:18State-funded media is ultimately corrosive to our sociopolitical fabric and ought to

00:35:21be anathema to a free society.

00:35:23It is, in short, a threat to democracy.

00:35:26Federal funding also gives NPR an unfair advantage over its competitors.

00:35:29According to our calculations, which are included with this testimony, the Corporation for Public

00:35:33Broadcasting receives more than $28 billion adjusted for inflation, or has received since

00:35:371969, and is asking for a further $525 million this fiscal year.

00:35:42About $128 billion of this will go to public radio affiliates.

00:35:45Except for the occasional fiscal discipline of the 80s or years when the appropriations

00:35:49were frozen, NPR's funding has only grown over time, despite a decrease in demand from

00:35:53the public, with new funding added to the baseline each year.

00:35:57Even if they do a bad job, they still get the money, because that's their baseline now,

00:36:01and Congress approves this unencumbered by the thought process.

00:36:04NPR likes to remind us that only 1% of its funding comes from taxpayers, and at first

00:36:09glance that does appear to be true.

00:36:1051% of its funding comes from corporate sponsorships, this is what normal people call ads, and private

00:36:15donations.

00:36:16Well, 31% comes from licensing fees, as the chairman noted, meaning the majority of its

00:36:20money does come from voluntary contributions and payments, just like every other media

00:36:24outlet.

00:36:25If this is true, why do they need taxpayer funding at all?

00:36:27Well, the reason is that the claim that only 1% comes from federal taxpayers is not true.

00:36:33On the same webpage where NPR claims that this minimal taxpayer investment, they also

00:36:37say that federal funding is essential to their mission.

00:36:39Well, which is it?

00:36:40Well, the answer lies in the 31%, as again the chairman has noted.

00:36:44These come from licensing fees that the affiliates pay back to NPR.

00:36:47NPR, according to the latest audit from 2022, received $93 million in revenues from these

00:36:53stations, which would account for 73% of this year's requested CPP grants to affiliates,

00:36:58the $128 million.

00:37:00So it turns out a shell game is afoot.

00:37:02Tax dollars are given to CPP, which passes a few million to NPR so they can claim the

00:37:05taxpayer contribution as negligible, while the rest is laundered through public affiliates

00:37:10and kicked back in the subsidies to NPR.

00:37:13This public radio financing system is so opaque that no one is actually certain how

00:37:16much federal funding NPR receives.

00:37:19Affiliates are required to keep track of how much money of their federal grants come from

00:37:22tax dollars, but a 2011 GAO audit of 23 public radio stations found that the majority do

00:37:27not maintain such records.

00:37:29Saul Goodman could not design a better laundering operation.

00:37:32So in closing, I have a couple of suggestions as to how to remedy this short of fully cutting

00:37:36off funding for NPR, which would be ideal.

00:37:39The most important one is that if taxpayers must fund NPR for it to survive, and I'm skeptical

00:37:43that that is the case, I think they could compete with other media outlets and do quite

00:37:47well because they have a very loyal audience of affluent progressives who have disposable

00:37:51income to donate to them, Congress could include on tax returns a box that you can check to

00:37:57make a voluntary contribution to an NPR fund in the exact same way we do for the U.S. Presidential

00:38:02Elections Fund.

00:38:03This way, they're going to get free advertising, a free funding appeal to the hundreds of millions

00:38:08of Americans who pay taxes, but they will not be strong-arming the middle and working

00:38:12classes into subsidizing content that appeals only to the affluent and well-educated.

00:38:16And the other suggestion I have is to answer the common refrain, which was echoed by former

00:38:23CEO Paul Haga, who was a Republican, in his weekend op-ed in the Washington Post that

00:38:2870% of the funding goes to affiliates and only 30% is spent on CPB operations and public

00:38:34and the National Public Television and Radio, simply give them a 30% funding cut and require

00:38:40that 100% of the money goes to the affiliates in a decentralized manner, as the first witness

00:38:44suggested.

00:38:45I look forward to your questions.

00:38:46The gentleman yields back, we appreciate that.

00:38:48Mr. Aaron, your five-minute opening statement.

00:38:52Thank you and good morning.

00:38:53I'd like to thank Chairman Griffith, Ranking Member Castor, Chairwoman McMorris-Rogers,

00:38:57and Ranking Member Pallone for inviting me to testify.

00:39:01I'm Craig Aaron and I'm the President and CEO of Free Press and Free Press Action.

00:39:05I do not represent NPR, PBS, or the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

00:39:09I hope today to provide a voice for NPR's tens of millions of weekly listeners who rely

00:39:15on the service for fact-check journalism, local viewpoints, and international coverage.

00:39:21Given the impetus for this hearing, I must clarify that Free Press is a non-profit group

00:39:24started in 2003 to work on media policy and should not be confused with The Free Press,

00:39:31a sub-stack publication that recently published a critical article about NPR.

00:39:35Over the past 20 years, I've been both an advocate for and a critic of the public broadcasting

00:39:40system, which I believe can do more to live up to its mandate and its mission.

00:39:46But this will not be accomplished by tarnishing the reputation of NPR's journalists, tearing

00:39:51down the institution, or starving it of funds.

00:39:55Inquiries like today's will likely make NPR leadership more timid, and I imagine that's

00:40:01the point.

00:40:02But threats of defunding don't just harm NPR executives, they endanger the work of more

00:40:07than 1,000 local radio stations providing essential information to communities, large

00:40:13and small.

00:40:14While I always welcome Congress's interest in public media, especially given the crisis

00:40:20in local journalism, I'm perplexed that an essay by one disgruntled editor at NPR is

00:40:27cause for a congressional inquiry.

00:40:30That essay by Uri Berliner is riddled with fuzzy math and cherry-picked evidence.

00:40:35For example, he inaccurately described several stories as going uncovered when NPR did extensive

00:40:41reporting or publicly interrogated its own editorial choices.

00:40:47That said, public media's purpose should be to tell stories not already told by the

00:40:52commercial media, and serve audiences not represented elsewhere.

00:40:57Berliner laments that NPR's increased focus on racial diversity since 2020, but if in

00:41:032024 we're still questioning whether systemic racism exists, we probably need to spend more

00:41:09time listening to the experiences of our colleagues from different backgrounds.

00:41:15Berliner's supposed bombshell that D.C. residents and NPR's newsrooms are all registered Democrats

00:41:21in a city where just 5% of voters are registered Republicans doesn't withstand scrutiny either.

00:41:28As NPR journalist Steve Inskeep points out, NPR has 662 people in its newsrooms, including

00:41:35far more in D.C. than the 87 Berliner tallied.

00:41:40His numbers don't add up.

00:41:42Yet these rickety claims have sent this subcommittee down a precarious path.

00:41:46I'm very concerned about the request sent to Catherine Maher, NPR's CEO, asking her

00:41:52to track and report to Congress on the political affiliations of NPR's newsroom employees.

00:41:59This is a dangerous overreach that raises serious First Amendment concerns and smacks

00:42:04of a political loyalty test.

00:42:07While Congress has a role in overseeing the operations and financial management of NPR,

00:42:14threats to defund it based on the perceived failure to cover certain topics or hire certain

00:42:18people strike at the heart of journalistic freedom.

00:42:22Yes, there must be a firewall between NPR executives and the newsroom.

00:42:28NPR's new CEO may have once volunteered for a Biden campaign.

00:42:32The head of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting used to co-chair the Republican National

00:42:37Committee.

00:42:38Neither is nor should be involved in editorial decisions.

00:42:44Berliner insists he does not want NPR defunded, but his complaints have been seized upon by

00:42:49those who would seek to defang or destroy public media.

00:42:54This is just the latest chapter in a long history of attacking NPR personnel on trumped

00:42:59up charges of bias.

00:43:02Today we have an opportunity instead to talk about how to rebuild and expand the public

00:43:07media system to meet the real needs of local communities, and we can find common ground.

00:43:14Mr. Husic and I, for instance, agree that NPR should not be defunded, but we should

00:43:18be spending more resources in support of local journalism to replant news deserts.

00:43:24Common ground can exist in Congress, too.

00:43:27I imagine many members here remember a time when there were multiple local outlets covering

00:43:32your campaigns and accomplishments and actually telling people back home what you do in Washington.

00:43:39A renewed and vibrant public media system focused on local voices is possible, but it

00:43:45requires a different approach, one that builds on public media's founding purpose, to quote

00:43:51President Johnson, to use the public airwaves which belong to all the people for the enlightenment

00:43:57of all the people.

00:43:58Thank you.

00:44:07Thank you so much.

00:44:08Appreciate your testimony, and we'll now move into questions and question and answer portion

00:44:13of the hearing.

00:44:14I will begin the questioning and recognize myself for five minutes.

00:44:17Mr. Aaron, I just want to clarify one point, and you didn't say anything wrong, but I want

00:44:21to make sure people back home know, when we asked for the political affiliation, it was

00:44:26based on the person's public registration by party, and not for NPR to calculate that.

00:44:36So we're not interested in if reporter John Doe is a Democrat, Republican, or an Independent.

00:44:41Sometimes that's difficult because in many states, like my home state of Virginia, there

00:44:45is no party registration.

00:44:47And I'm not asking, when we sent that letter, we weren't asking them to go around and do

00:44:51some kind of litmus test on whether they were a Republican, a Democrat, or an Independent,

00:44:54just tell us what the registered numbers are.

00:44:57Based on, and I know you have disagreements with it, but based on Berliner's statements

00:45:04that it's heavily skewed towards one party, and while the population of D.C. might be

00:45:10disproportionately Democrat, clearly the surrounding areas, while more Democrat than my home area,

00:45:20should be taken into account.

00:45:21And the national NPR, wouldn't you agree, should be more reflective of all viewpoints

00:45:27and not just one.

00:45:28I'm not trying to stifle if somebody wants to be a progressive, but I do think if we're

00:45:33paying, if the taxpayers are paying for it, that we ought to be reflective of all voices.

00:45:37Wouldn't you agree with that?

00:45:39Well, thank you for the question, Congressman.

00:45:41I do appreciate the clarity on your intent, however, I worry about the impact of NPR leadership

00:45:48needing to go in and look at what are the political affiliations and registrations of

00:45:52all of their employees.

00:45:54That's not something that they would traditionally do in hiring.

00:45:57In fact, I believe in the District of Columbia, discrimination, of course, based on political

00:46:04affiliation is a protected class.

00:46:06So I don't think that NPR should be in the business of doing that, I don't think Congress

00:46:09should be in the business.

00:46:10And be happy to talk with them about it, the concern was that it does appear that they

00:46:14lean way to the left and that if all accents and all voices are to be heard, I don't hear

00:46:21a whole lot on the national news of folks with accents like mine or people in my district.

00:46:28Mr. Husek, I appreciate your comments very much, I thought that you had some good points

00:46:36and one of them was that we should do regular oversight of what NPR is doing and I learned

00:46:44this morning, I've only chaired for the last two years, but I've been on this committee

00:46:47for about 14, we have not held a hearing to discuss NPR on any subject since 1999.

00:46:56So you would encourage us to have more regular things so the pressure doesn't build up to

00:47:00the point that we're at right now.

00:47:02Would you agree with that or is that what you're trying to say?

00:47:05That's definitely what I'm trying to say and I'm focusing on specific metrics that would

00:47:10encourage NPR to serve a broader audience, I'm not proposing defunding NPR, I find a

00:47:16lot of common ground with Mr. Aaron on this, right, what I'm saying, if NPR reports to

00:47:23you and I put public broadcasting service in that same category, the PBS NewsHour.

00:47:30Make sure you lean into the mic so it catches on, so the folks back home can hear you.

00:47:35I can hear you.

00:47:36I'm saying I would put NPR and the PBS NewsHour in the same category.

00:47:42Report on the demographics and geography of your audience to demonstrate and have an incentive

00:47:48to serve a broader audience.

00:47:50When Pew, Pew is the most neutral and respected, when it says 87% left liberal, that's disappointing.

00:47:59I don't think that reflects necessarily the views of Republican or Democrat reporters,

00:48:03they should be above the partisanship in their editorial duties, but if on the whole

00:48:13the service is reaching only a select portion of the American public, that's a problem and

00:48:20if they report to you regularly on progress they're making in expanding their geographic

00:48:25and demographic reach, I think that would be incentivizing for them to improve.

00:48:30And you think that would be a better test than the one we asked for about political

00:48:33affiliation then?

00:48:34Because we're just trying to get a fair impression of what's going on.

00:48:40The demographic listenership would help with that, is what you're saying?

00:48:44That's exactly what I'm saying.

00:48:45And the other thing you said was that some of those fees that are going back to NPR are

00:48:50required for the local NPR stations?

00:48:53That's my understanding from my time at CPB, which is you pay dues to be part of the public

00:48:59267-member NPR.

00:49:03There's a thousand public radio stations and 267 are NPR members, and to be an NPR member

00:49:08you are required to pay dues in addition to purchasing-

00:49:11And I'm running out of time, but I will say that historically, even when I was in the

00:49:15state legislature, I supported the local radio stations because they do some programming

00:49:21that you can't get elsewhere like the history of bluegrass, which is important in my district.

00:49:26I yield back.

00:49:27I'll just say the Stanley brothers are from Southwest Virginia.

00:49:31Can't beat them.

00:49:33Can't beat them.

00:49:34Although we've got the third generation coming along, doing pretty good, but the original

00:49:39generation has all passed away.

00:49:41But they were still around when I was first elected.

00:49:43All right, I yield and I now recognize Ms. Castor for her five minutes of questions.

00:49:47Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:49:49Ms. Stern, I want to focus in on what is happening in the media landscape across America.

00:49:56It was just a few years ago, my community in the Tampa Bay area, we had two very strong

00:50:02newspapers, the Tampa Tribune and the St. Petersburg Times, now the Tampa Bay Times.

00:50:09Just a few years later, the Tribune is gone.

00:50:13The Times only prints two days a week.

00:50:19It won numerous Pulitzer Prizes, as did the Tribune, but it's kind of a shadow of its

00:50:25former self.

00:50:26And I worry desperately about the ability of people to be informed about what's happening

00:50:35in their community.

00:50:36What has happened with the demise of newspapers and why has that happened in America?

00:50:42Thank you so much.

00:50:43I appreciate the question.

00:50:44I do agree with you and I think you have reason to be concerned.

00:50:47As Mr. Husick mentioned in his testimony, we've lost some 2,000 newspapers and over

00:50:53the last decades, tens of thousands of working reporters who were the ones out there on the

00:50:57beat going to the school board meetings, going to the city council meetings, telling people

00:51:01what was happening.

00:51:02And of course, that benefits the readers of these publications, but it also benefits the

00:51:06whole community.

00:51:07Once the news is out there, it's a public good.

00:51:10People can say, hey, did you hear what the mayor did?

00:51:11Did you hear about this corruption scandal?

00:51:14And we've seen that when we lose those local outlets, we lose awareness of what's happening

00:51:19close to home and what's happening here in Washington as well.

00:51:22There used to be a lot of reporters paying attention to what the local delegation did,

00:51:27what was going to be brought home.

00:51:28When that disappears, corruption increases.

00:51:31When that disappears, it's harder to bring money home to districts.

00:51:34People don't even know what's happening.

00:51:35So I think there are concerns across the country about this decimation and decline of local

00:51:40news.

00:51:41I think from a public policy perspective, we have to ask ourselves, what's going to

00:51:44fill in the gaps?

00:51:46The market isn't providing that local news, and we have to look for what are the noncommercial

00:51:51additions or alternatives that could support that.

00:51:53I think public media could and should, and does in many communities, play that role.

00:51:58But it could play a bigger role in supporting that kind of local coverage that really describes

00:52:04what's happening in local committees and make sure those reporters are there.

00:52:08That's why I worry about these threats for defunding, because in many places, these public

00:52:11radio stations, they are the newsroom.

00:52:14They are the six or seven reporters trying to cover a whole locality.

00:52:18You lose that, and then nobody has any idea what's going on.

00:52:21A lot of the advertising revenue that supported local newspapers is now gone.

00:52:27Gone where?

00:52:28Well, it's certainly gone to big tech in a lot of ways.

00:52:31Big tech platforms, right?

00:52:32And of course, when the local news is decimated, when it disappears, there's less reason for

00:52:38people to come and be part of it.

00:52:40And of course, the ad market has changed.

00:52:42The internet exists.

00:52:43We're in a new reality where if you want to reach an audience, the local newspaper is

00:52:47no longer the best way to do it, because people have other ways to buy their colors.

00:52:51Does the average person have insight on the algorithms controlled by big tech platforms?

00:52:57No, the average person doesn't, and almost nobody does, right?

00:53:01We don't have transparency that I think we should have.

00:53:04It's probably a different topic.

00:53:06But the transparency we need to know, how are these decisions being made for us?

00:53:10What do we need to know?

00:53:11As a news consumer, you don't know why you're being fed the headlines you're being fed,

00:53:16if you're even being given headlines anymore, which is part of the problem, which is why

00:53:20something like public radio is so important, because that's obviously a different way for

00:53:24people to find news information.

00:53:25And we've dealt in this committee with foreign adversaries controlling certain big tech algorithms

00:53:30and have tried to deal with that.

00:53:32It would just seem that we need to put the power, keep the power with the people, especially

00:53:37in our local communities.

00:53:38So are you saying that you think we should be investing more in public broadcasting through

00:53:44the Corporation for Public Broadcasting under the Public Broadcasting Act?

00:53:49I would advocate for an increase in public media funding if it's going to local journalism

00:53:54and local news.

00:53:55I think that we vastly underfund the public media system compared to the rest of the world.

00:54:00It's about $3.16 per capita per year.

00:54:04In countries like England or Germany, you know, it's $80, $140 per year.

00:54:09I'm not saying it needs to be at that level, but I'm saying a significant increase would

00:54:14go a long way toward helping us have more local journalism and that that should be the

00:54:18priority going forward.

00:54:20I think that would be a good investment that would pay dividends across the country.

00:54:24And Mr. Houssack, you've suggested something similar.

00:54:27Is that right?

00:54:28I am.

00:54:29I think that the funds should, but to do that, increasing will not by itself serve that purpose.

00:54:38The funds, I think there has to be a rethinking of the original authorizing legislation in

00:54:46the light of these vast changes that we've seen so that we can be more certain that the

00:54:51money will stay at the local level.

00:54:53I ran out of time and I noticed that NPR has actually had that debate going on itself.

00:54:58And Mr. Chairman, I'd like to offer for the record the April 16th, 2024 commentary by

00:55:06Steve Inskeep, How My NPR Colleague Failed at Viewpoint Diversity, and he gives a perfect

00:55:11example of the kind of journalism he says he's against and highlights some of these

00:55:15issues.

00:55:16Without objection.

00:55:17So ordered.

00:55:18The chair now recognizes the chair of the full committee, the gentlelady from Washington,

00:55:22Mrs. Rogers, for five minutes for her questions.

00:55:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:55:28I'd like to note that it was previously alleged that only reactionary Republicans are complaining

00:55:33about the bias at NPR, but with unanimous consent, I'd like to enter into the record

00:55:38Mr. Berliner's article.

00:55:43With unanimous consent, please.

00:55:46Without objection.

00:55:50I'm going to quote the article's opening paragraph, where Mr. Berliner describes his political

00:55:55views and background.

00:55:57Quote, you know the stereotype of the NPR listener, an EV driving, wordy playing, tote

00:56:05bag carrying coastal elite.

00:56:08It doesn't precisely describe me, but it's not far off.

00:56:13I'm Sarah Lawrence educated, was raised by a lesbian peace activist mother.

00:56:19I drive a suburban Subaru, and Spotify says my listening habits are most similar to people

00:56:26in Berkeley.

00:56:28I fit the NPR mold.

00:56:31I'll copy to that.

00:56:33That was the end quote.

00:56:36I don't know about anyone else here, but Mr. Berliner doesn't sound like a MAGA Republican

00:56:41to me.

00:56:42He sounds like someone who's trying to sound the alarm about the institution he cares about.

00:56:47It's not the role of Congress to tell NPR or any news organization how or what content

00:56:53it should broadcast or print.

00:56:55My concern here is why American tax dollars need to subsidize a news organization that

00:57:01so clearly does not want to reflect the diverse views of all Americans.

00:57:06Mr. Graham, I'll start with you.

00:57:08As you're aware, Mr. Berliner wrote this op-ed, and in it, quote, he says, by 2023, the picture

00:57:18was completely different.

00:57:19Only 11% described themselves as very or somewhat conservative, 21% as middle of the road, and

00:57:2567% of listeners said they were very or somewhat liberal.

00:57:31We weren't just losing conservatives, we were also losing moderates and traditional liberals.

00:57:36End of quote.

00:57:37Mr. Graham, I wanted you to speak some more.

00:57:40Build on your testimony about how NPR has changed over the years, and if you believe

00:57:45that it caters only to a select audience, and just what examples you might give from

00:57:50the past five years where you believe NPR has unfairly covered Republicans.

00:57:54Thank you.

00:57:55Look, the idea that Uri Berliner said, I counted 87 Democrats and zero Republicans, to me,

00:58:02the 87 isn't what matters.

00:58:04It's the zero.

00:58:07Why isn't there one?

00:58:09Why isn't there two?

00:58:11You know, Pat Corton used to work at WTOP here in D.C., and the question was always,

00:58:15he was the one Republican in the newsroom, and what that meant was that sometimes when

00:58:20people were doing stories, they would actually ask the Republican in the newsroom, let me

00:58:25check on this so I don't go off the rails.

00:58:28There's nobody inside the NPR newsroom, as far as we can tell, maybe it was Uri Berliner,

00:58:34who would stop NPR from going off the rails.

00:58:38But what happens is, for example, yeah, White House reporter Tamara Keith at NPR goes on

00:58:43the PBS NewsHour, she says what's happening in the House is a reflection of a broader

00:58:47divide in the Republican Party, where there's maybe like 20% or 30% of Republicans who don't

00:58:54want to burn it all down.

00:58:57Do the Republicans here in the Congress think they want to burn it all down?

00:59:04That's part of the point.

00:59:06You know, you can say, well, I don't want to regulate the content, that's not my role.

00:59:11But on some level, this is an undemocratic public radio system that shuts out the viewpoints

00:59:17of people that aren't the regular audience.

00:59:21I am the regular audience.

00:59:22I listen to national public radio in my car, you know.

00:59:26I get upset listening to it, then I go in and I write about it.

00:59:30I may be the weird guy that actually listens to NPR.

00:59:35But when you listen to it, it's very hard to describe it as objective.

00:59:40And I'm offended by the idea that by objecting to it, somehow I'm comparable to Putin.

00:59:47In a democracy, we should be able to say that the media doesn't serve us, that the media

00:59:54is basically kicking us in the keister.

00:59:57So I mean, I think there should be a role in a public radio system to represent all

01:00:01the public.

01:00:02You can sit here and talk about how it does.

01:00:05I'll tell you it does not.

01:00:06It's not serving me.

01:00:08It's harming me.

01:00:10It's smearing me.

01:00:11And a lot of Republicans and conservatives feel that way.

01:00:15Thank you.

01:00:16I have more questions, and we have written a letter to the CEO of NPR, and we're going

01:00:21to look for those answers.

01:00:23I wanted to, and I'll do some follow-up questions to other panelists, I really do want to explore

01:00:28this question, because I believe it's misleading to say that only 1% of NPR's budget comes

01:00:33from federal dollars, and part of our goal here is to really get a better understanding

01:00:38of the funding.

01:00:39So I'll follow up with those questions.

01:00:41Thanks again.

01:00:42I yield back.

01:00:43Thank you, Madam Chair.

01:00:44Madam Chair yields back, now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr.

01:00:48Pallone, for his five minutes of questioning.

01:00:51Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:00:52I just want to be clear that in the letter that the Republican leadership of this committee

01:00:57sent to NPR, they specifically said in question number one, in the past five years, how many

01:01:05registered Republicans, Democrats, independents, and registered voters who are not required

01:01:09by state law to declare an affiliation has NPR employed as part of its news media staff?

01:01:16And then they go into, you know, what percentage of the board of directors were Republicans,

01:01:20et cetera.

01:01:21So, you know, it's clear that they're asking for the political affiliation of their employees.

01:01:27So let me start by, Mr. Aaron, what is your reaction to this Republican majority's asking

01:01:32a news organization to report the political affiliation of its employees?

01:01:37As I said in my testimony, Mr. Chairman, I think it's a dangerous overreach.

01:01:41I don't think it's the government's role to tally or investigate or ask NPR leadership

01:01:49to keep track of the political affiliations of its reporters and editors and other employees.

01:01:54I think that they should be judged.

01:01:56The Congress has a role, of course, oversight, financial management, how is the system working?

01:02:02But I don't believe it's their job to do that.

01:02:05And I think it does impinge on journalistic freedom that what should be judged is the

01:02:09work of the journalists.

01:02:11And as a journalist, what you're supposed to do, or at least what I learned when I went

01:02:14to journalism school, is you are supposed to seek out views you disagree with.

01:02:18You're supposed to look at multiple sources.

01:02:20Now, people may have complaints at one time or another about how an individual NPR reporter

01:02:25did that job.

01:02:26I think on a whole, there is a lot of good evidence of very strong journalism.

01:02:31Some of the other panelists here obviously might disagree.

01:02:33But it's not the government's role.

01:02:35And I actually think it is a major overreach to suggest that based on the viewpoints that

01:02:41you express or cover or the editorial choices, that that could somehow be connected and dependent

01:02:47on the funding that you're offering.

01:02:49I think that is a path that I would discourage this committee and this Congress from going

01:02:54down.

01:02:55Well, I'm going to go further than you and say it's not just an overreach.

01:02:58I think a political litmus test violates the most foundational principles of our nation.

01:03:06And I just think Congress has no business interrogating media outlets about the political

01:03:10affiliation of their employees.

01:03:12And I use the term McCarthy.

01:03:14I really do think it has troubling echoes of a very dark period of congressional oversight

01:03:21under Joe McCarthy, frankly.

01:03:23But let me ask you a second question.

01:03:24You kind of got into it.

01:03:26Because it seems Republicans may not understand this, does a journalist's political affiliation

01:03:32impact their ability to produce fair quality work, in your opinion?

01:03:35Mr. Chairman, it should not.

01:03:38Obviously every individual, every human brings their own biases to their job and their approach.

01:03:44But the job of a journalist, of course, is to go out and hear what other people think,

01:03:49to talk to sources, to evaluate the evidence.

01:03:52That's what we want our journalists to be doing.

01:03:55And then, you know, that's put out into the marketplace of ideas, and we can get all the

01:03:59different perspectives.

01:04:00So that's why that shouldn't be the starting point any more than I think this committee

01:04:04should go ask Fox News or Sinclair or Nexstar to tell us the political affiliation of the

01:04:11journalists working in those newsrooms.

01:04:13We should look at the journalism they produce, the questions they ask, the stories they choose

01:04:19as viewers.

01:04:20If we don't like it, there are plenty of avenues to register that complaint.

01:04:24There are public editors, there are letters, there are comments.

01:04:27There are, of course, other media outlets covering many of these stories.

01:04:30But what's not appropriate is for Congress to say, we don't like what this radio station

01:04:35is doing, and now we're going to come in and cut the funding.

01:04:39That's crossing a line.

01:04:41I also worry what happens in a democratic society when a political body like Congress

01:04:47tries to intimidate journalists because of their political beliefs.

01:04:50If you ask whether or not you have so many Democrats or Republicans in your affiliation,

01:04:55that goes back to the McCarthyism.

01:04:57What happens when Congress or a political body tries to intimidate journalists or says,

01:05:04you know, what your political beliefs are?

01:05:07You see that as an issue?

01:05:08I do see it as a problem.

01:05:10Of course, I wish the journalists, the NPR leadership would push back and fight back

01:05:14here.

01:05:15But what happens and what's happened over a long period of time is these kind of inquiries,

01:05:18these kind of pressure, the working of the refs, it makes journalists more timid, more

01:05:23cautious, more unwilling to ask hard questions.

01:05:26That's what I worry about, that it makes them harder for them to do their job.

01:05:29And what we've seen, what also happens when we dismiss, threaten, describe the work of

01:05:34journalists in these, you know, really harsh terms, is it also endangers journalists.

01:05:40You know, we've seen political events where leaders turn and point out the journalists

01:05:45in the audience so everyone can yell at them and boo them when they're just there trying

01:05:48to report on what's happening.

01:05:50I worry very much about that because we benefit when we have reporters out there from public

01:05:56media, from commercial media, from across the political spectrum able to do their jobs,

01:06:01ask the tough questions, report on what's going on.

01:06:04That's what we want them doing, reporting.

01:06:06Any effort to interfere or try to guess at their political affiliation or assume that

01:06:12people of different political affiliation can't ask hard questions, I think that does

01:06:17a great disservice.

01:06:18Thank you.

01:06:19Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:06:20The gentleman yields back, now recognizes the chair of the Energy Subcommittee, Mr.

01:06:25Duncan, for his five minutes of questions.

01:06:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:06:28You know, I used to drive 65,000 miles a year in my truck.

01:06:32And like Mr. Graham, I used to listen to NPR a good bit.

01:06:35In fact, I enjoyed all things considered.

01:06:39But unfortunately, all things aren't considered now.

01:06:42The ranking member of the subcommittee used the words objective reporting, but there's

01:06:46nothing objective about NPR now.

01:06:50If it was truly objective, we wouldn't even be here today.

01:06:53But we do have a responsibility to conduct oversight on how U.S. tax dollars are spent

01:06:59by government agencies, regardless what the agency is.

01:07:03And I really do wish that NPR's new left-wing CEO would have had the fortitude to show up

01:07:07today, but no such luck, I guess.

01:07:11If Ms. Morrow were here, I could ask about why NPR reported Monday that TikTok isn't

01:07:16really the threat that this committee knows that it is, which is why we recently passed

01:07:22the divestment bill.

01:07:24Forbes got that story right, since it was their own journalists that discovered TikTok

01:07:28was spying on them, while NPR's reporting said there's no evidence of TikTok's espionage

01:07:33activities.

01:07:35Forbes journalists did.

01:07:36They didn't need federal subsidies to get their reporting right.

01:07:40What NPR has evolved into, as evidenced by Mr. Graham's written testimony, is a Democrat

01:07:49propaganda machine funded by U.S. tax dollars.

01:07:52And that's wrong.

01:07:54If Ms. Morrow were here, I could ask about why NPR never fired the NPR commentator who,

01:07:59in 1995, described the potential rapture disappearance of millions of Christians as, quote, leaving

01:08:04the world a better place.

01:08:06If Ms. Morrow were here, I could ask her why her network chose to promote abortions in

01:08:11America by broadcasting one in 2022.

01:08:15If Ms. Morrow were here, I could ask why we need taxpayer-funded media outlet at all,

01:08:20since there is a plethora of available sources that can provide journalism without government

01:08:25subsidies.

01:08:26I could ask her why great radio stations like WRD in South Carolina need government-subsidized

01:08:32competition.

01:08:33But Ms. Morrow decided to duck this hearing.

01:08:36So instead, I'll simply discuss H.R. 1632, Ronnie Jackson's bill to end government funding

01:08:41of NPR and the Parent Corporation for Public Broadcasting, of which I'm a proud co-sponsor,

01:08:47or H.R. 8083 from the next Senator of Indiana, Jim Banks, and congratulations, Jim, for his

01:08:54great win last night, another bill to prohibit funding for NPR, and I'm a proud co-sponsor

01:08:59of that one, too, or H.R. 8091 to prevent government funding for NPR or any other radio

01:09:05content from my friend, Chair of the House Freedom Caucus, Bob Good of Virginia.

01:09:09I'm a co-sponsor of that one, too.

01:09:11We shouldn't be funding a propaganda machine, which is what NPR has evolved into.

01:09:21The Constitution lays out 17 enumerated powers for this government, providing state media

01:09:27in one of them.

01:09:29NPR and PBS have become American propta, a reliable mouthpiece for the liberal bureaucracy

01:09:34and their left-wing enablers.

01:09:37It's time to restore some sanity to this government by eliminating NPR's federal boondoggle.

01:09:42If the public wishes to support so-called public broadcasting, they can still choose

01:09:47to send their own hard-earned money rather than have us tax them to do it.

01:09:52I hope this committee will look at ending NPR and CPB and that our friends on the Appropriations

01:09:59Committee will stop cutting them checks.

01:10:03Just a couple examples.

01:10:05They didn't want to report on the Hunter Biden laptop story.

01:10:07In fact, they tried to pooh-pooh that and say it was Russian propaganda.

01:10:10We now know that was all reported by this propaganda machine to influence an election.

01:10:16NPR should not be there to influence elections in this country.

01:10:22NPR should be there to inform the general public on the threats to Americans' liberty

01:10:30and freedom, true reporting on storms that are going on, emergency broadcast, information

01:10:40that the public needs, not that NPR wants them to hear or see.

01:10:47That's not the role.

01:10:49And so, Mr. Chairman, thanks for holding this valuable hearing, and I look forward to the

01:10:55work this Congress should be doing on this important issue, and with that, I yield back.

01:11:08Thank you, the gentleman, for yielding back.

01:11:09Now recognize Mr. Tonko of New York.

01:11:13Now recognize Mr. Ruiz of California for five minutes of questioning.

01:11:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:11:19I proudly represent California's 25th congressional district.

01:11:23A district informed by many local media outlets and journalists.

01:11:29Local broadcasters positively contribute to the lives of millions of Americans every day,

01:11:36providing objective information that allows the public to hold its government accountable.

01:11:42Most Americans agree that local news organizations get it right.

01:11:47They report the news accurately, cover the most important stories, are transparent, and

01:11:52keep an eye on local political leaders.

01:11:55According to a Pew Research report released yesterday, 85% of Americans affirm the significance

01:12:01of local news outlets in fostering the welfare of their community.

01:12:06For many, a public broadcast serves as their initial source of weather forecast, traffic

01:12:12updates, local election updates, and community event notifications each morning.

01:12:18Therefore, safeguarding the accessibility and caliber of local news remains paramount.

01:12:23Mr. Hustock, in your testimony, you speak of the importance of local journalism.

01:12:29In your perspective, what effect does local journalism have on public engagement and trust

01:12:35with the media?

01:12:38There's been significant research by the Medill School at Northwestern on public participation

01:12:44in local institutions.

01:12:47As a result of having regular, routine coverage of city council meetings, school boards, that's

01:12:54the kind of coverage we need on public radio.

01:12:57My concern is that's getting crowded out by the need of local stations to send their money

01:13:02to Washington.

01:13:03So, a more balanced approach to the funding stream would allow those local stations to

01:13:10be the reporter at the school board, to be the reporter at the city council, at the zoning

01:13:14board, at the water and sewer commission.

01:13:17Thank you.

01:13:18The Pew report also found that 63% of Americans express confidence in the financial stability

01:13:23of their local news outlets, yet recent revelations suggest otherwise.

01:13:29Mr. Aaron, can you describe the challenges local news organizations face, especially

01:13:33regarding their finances?

01:13:34Yes.

01:13:35Thank you, Congressman.

01:13:36I think that result you cite is very concerning because it shows that most Americans don't

01:13:42really know what a precarious state the finances of local news is in, including public broadcasting.

01:13:48Most Americans assume we actually spend far more than we actually do on the public broadcasting

01:13:53system and they're happy with it.

01:13:55They say that that's a good use of taxpayer money.

01:13:57In fact, I think there was a survey that said it was second only to the national defense

01:14:01in terms of things taxpayers thought that was a good use of federal funds.

01:14:05But of course, it's a pittance compared to what's needed.

01:14:09And with the decline of commercial media, the real struggle, local commercial media,

01:14:13many of the national guys are doing okay.

01:14:14But when it comes to your local newspaper, your local radio station, people really committed

01:14:18to the community.

01:14:20There is a deep, deep financial struggle and one that suggests we have to look for new

01:14:25solutions because we need those local reporters on the ground doing their jobs.

01:14:30And that's going to require federal policy changes and Congress's attention to make sure

01:14:35that local communities can actually get the news they need to be active participants in

01:14:40this democracy.

01:14:42Financial hardships make local news organizations vulnerable to bad actors and big media conglomerates.

01:14:48A study by political scientists at Emory University in 2019 revealed that the acquisition of local

01:14:54stations and the advancement of partisan agendas exacerbates the deterioration of local journalism

01:15:01and fosters the spread of biased national news coverage.

01:15:05Mr. Aaron, how does the consolidation of local stations by large conglomerates affect

01:15:10those who depend on public broadcasting, whether through radio, television, or broadband for

01:15:15their news?

01:15:16I think the problem of runaway consolidation, first of all, has decimated newsrooms.

01:15:21It's cost a lot of jobs.

01:15:22As corporate consolidation happens and things become concentrated, they've gotten rid of

01:15:27a lot of reporters, whether that's newspapers or broadcasters.

01:15:30Furthermore, because the Federal Communications Commission has given up its responsibility

01:15:35to ensure greater diversity of ownership in local broadcasting, we've allowed a few dominant

01:15:41companies like Fox, like Sinclair, like Nexstar, to own hundreds of stations across the country

01:15:47and most importantly, multiple stations within the same market.

01:15:51So instead of having a conservative station and another station and another station, you

01:15:54have one set of stations all owned by the same company, the same bosses.

01:15:59My colleagues don't raise concern when Sinclair is buying up all the local stations and they're

01:16:04a conservative organization.

01:16:07The threat to local news is not remedied by an arbitrary political purity test like my

01:16:13colleagues across the aisle implied in their letter to NPR CEO, Catherine Mayer.

01:16:17We cannot allow the trust in our local broadcasters to be eroded by bad faith investigations or

01:16:23the predatory actions of big corporations.

01:16:26Let us instead support community journalism and rebuild the public's faith in the news.

01:16:31I thank our local broadcasters, including those in my district, for the hard and important

01:16:34work they do to educate and inform our constituents.

01:16:37I yield back.

01:16:38The gentleman yields back and now recognizes Ms. Lesko for her five minutes of questioning.

01:16:45Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for being here to testify today.

01:16:49I appreciate all your work.

01:16:51You know, I'm a supporter of local news.

01:16:54I think it's valuable and I think we need it.

01:16:59I think there's a hunger in our society for just plain, unbiased news.

01:17:05You know, I talk to people all the time and they're like, I turned off the TV.

01:17:11I don't even watch that anymore.

01:17:13It just irritates me, you know, and people are just fed up.

01:17:17Their blood pressure is too high.

01:17:19And I even look around, I'm like, what is the truth?

01:17:23What is the truth?

01:17:24It's just all opinions.

01:17:26And so I want that, but if my taxpayer dollars and my constituents' taxpayer dollars are

01:17:34paying for NPR, then it should be unbiased.

01:17:41That's the point.

01:17:42And when my Democratic colleagues are passionate and say, well, Fox News is biased, well, guess

01:17:49what?

01:17:50CNN and MSN is biased too, but the point is they're not publicly funded.

01:17:56That's the reason we're here.

01:17:58We're here because we're talking about taxpayer dollars.

01:18:02And when my Democratic colleagues say this is a waste of time, we shouldn't be talking

01:18:06about this.

01:18:07Yes, we should.

01:18:08We're funding this.

01:18:09Yeah, it's only $5 million direct funds to NPR, but as was pointed out, all of the member

01:18:17stations have to pay in.

01:18:19And guess where those member stations get the money from?

01:18:22Well, they get it from taxpayer dollars through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, right?

01:18:27And so don't tell me it's just $5 million.

01:18:30It's a heck of a lot more taxpayer dollars than that.

01:18:33And so my first question is for Mr. Graham.

01:18:37Mr. Graham, what accountability measures should be implemented to ensure NPR provides impartial

01:18:43coverage and serves a broader audience?

01:18:46Yeah, I mean, I think this has been the whole problem, as the chairman was saying, that

01:18:50the federal, that the legislature doesn't want to sit there and listen to it.

01:18:55I think that a more regular hearing process would be important.

01:19:00It would be good for Katharine Maher to actually have to come up here and say, please explain

01:19:04to us why you decided the Hunter Biden laptop wasn't a story.

01:19:12And, you know, the executive that decided this, that it was a pure distraction, is now

01:19:17the editor of USA Today.

01:19:19He got promoted for that kind of news judgment.

01:19:24I'm not sure, other than some oversight hearings, I'm sure we don't want to have members of

01:19:29Congress do what we do and sit here and count minutes and seconds.

01:19:33But anybody who tries to do that is going to see, for example, yes, they're not covering

01:19:39Republican hearings.

01:19:40NPR doesn't want to cover Republican hearings, but they're going to give 45 hours to the

01:19:46January 6th committee where the Republicans weren't even allowed to select their own members.

01:19:52It's not hard to figure out.

01:19:55Is NPR biased?

01:19:56Listen to it for an hour.

01:19:59It's not difficult to figure out.

01:20:00It's not rocket science.

01:20:03Just this morning, they were talking about the white bonus, that white people benefit

01:20:09from systemic racism and we all have white privilege.

01:20:15There's a lot of white people in America who are like, I don't really like this story.

01:20:20And guess what?

01:20:21I don't get to speak.

01:20:22You know, a lot of these things, there's nobody in there to say, well, now for somebody who

01:20:27doesn't believe there's a defense of looting, now you get two minutes.

01:20:32That's a problem.

01:20:34I think oversight hearings may be just the thing to do.

01:20:36But you can see from the CEO not showing up, she's not ready to handle this.

01:20:42She doesn't take it seriously.

01:20:45You know?

01:20:47I know she just started, but she was hired because of all these crazy tweets, right?

01:20:52They didn't disqualify her.

01:20:54They basically qualified her when she said, well, I see why people would riot and loot.

01:21:00Well, thank you for your comments.

01:21:02And you can see from the hemorrhaging of people that are in the middle or conservative listening

01:21:09to NPR that it's gotten so left-leaning and so biased that the people have given up listening

01:21:15to them.

01:21:16And that's sad.

01:21:17It's a sad state of affairs.

01:21:18And I want to help try to correct it because I do want local news.

01:21:22I do want, I just want the news, okay?

01:21:25I don't want to hear somebody's opinion.

01:21:28And so, Mr. Irwin, you're with the Taxpayer Union, is that?

01:21:34Americans for Tax Reform.

01:21:36Thank you.

01:21:37I'm sorry.

01:21:38How can taxpayer funding be used as a leverage point to encourage NPR to diversify its political

01:21:45viewpoints?

01:21:46I mean, that's kind of the gist of this hearing, isn't it?

01:21:50Sure.

01:21:51I know we're over time, but quickly, there's been a lot of talk about the intimidation

01:21:54of journalists and that this hearing is the intimidation of NPR journalists.

01:21:58There's some truth to that.

01:22:00You know why?

01:22:01Because it's federally funded, and this committee has leverage over the news coverage that NPR

01:22:06is going to be capable of producing.

01:22:08That is wrong in a free society.

01:22:09In a democracy, you do not have state media.

01:22:12That is a dystopian, totalitarian, Iron Curtain-style system.

01:22:17But what can be done to reform?

01:22:18I think that these other two witnesses have mentioned some great suggestions.

01:22:22The decentralization is going to be a great one.

01:22:24The focus on local news, regular hearings, more regular oversight.

01:22:27The last time in 1999, when this committee did have a hearing with NPR, by the way, it

01:22:31was over a scandal where local affiliates were sharing donor lists with Democratic Party

01:22:37operatives.

01:22:38So, I mean, I think that to call it a propaganda arm for the Democratic Party, it falls a little

01:22:44bit short.

01:22:45It's more of a money-laundering operation for in-kind contributions to Democratic campaigns

01:22:49well beyond federal election regulation limits.

01:22:53But, I mean, I think our suggestion is simply take away the money and make it a voluntary

01:22:57contribution that you can check on your tax form, if you would like, and the disproportionately

01:23:02affluent people who do pay taxes will be able to make a contribution.

01:23:06Thank you, and I yield back.

01:23:07I thank the gentlelady for yielding back.

01:23:08Now I recognize Ms. Segeta of Colorado for five minutes of questioning.

01:23:12Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:23:15Mr. Chairman, I've been on this subcommittee for 28 years now.

01:23:20I've been the chair of this subcommittee, been the ranking member of this subcommittee.

01:23:25I consider the House Oversight and Investigation Subcommittee to be the preeminent investigatory

01:23:31committee in the House, which is why I am so deeply disappointed in this one-off partisan

01:23:40political hearing, which was thrown together at the last minute and put together.

01:23:47We could have a real investigation into issues about media independence, about what the role

01:23:56of the federal government is, but instead we're having this hearing.

01:24:01I apologize I had to leave for a few minutes.

01:24:04The reason I had to leave for a few minutes is I went to a press conference just now at

01:24:10which there was one reporter from Colorado, and the one reporter from Colorado was from

01:24:18Colorado Public Radio, which happens to be the only media outlet from the state of Colorado

01:24:26that has a Washington bureau.

01:24:29She doesn't just cover me.

01:24:31She covers everybody else in my delegation, which includes our two senators, John Hickenlooper

01:24:39and Michael Bennett.

01:24:40It includes Lauren Boebert.

01:24:42It includes Doug Lamborn and all the Democrats.

01:24:46She covers all of us, and there's nobody else who doesn't.

01:24:51I want to say shame on this committee for doing this, apparently in my absence, but

01:24:56also when I was here.

01:24:58The majority staff or the majority members keep attacking the NPR CEO, Catherine Marr,

01:25:06because she's not here.

01:25:08They gave her one week notice.

01:25:10She's a brand new CEO, and today is her board meeting, her first board meeting as CEO.

01:25:18You want to haul her in here so that you can rake her over the coals for your partisan

01:25:24issues.

01:25:25Shame on this committee.

01:25:28I'm beside myself.

01:25:30I think it's outrageous.

01:25:32Also, in listening to the testimony of the first three of the witnesses on this committee,

01:25:38you would think that NPR is a urban-only, liberal, democratic organ.

01:25:47That is so far from the truth.

01:25:49NPR has member stations all across the country.

01:25:54You heard the ranking member say in Florida, some of these stations in rural areas are

01:25:59the only ones who are giving weather reports about impending hurricanes and other extreme

01:26:06weather events.

01:26:08Same thing in Colorado.

01:26:09In Colorado, we have member affiliates in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

01:26:16Hate to tell anybody who's ever looked at Colorado Springs, not a liberal bastion.

01:26:21We have a member affiliate in Greeley, Colorado.

01:26:26Hate to tell you, not a liberal bastion.

01:26:30All of these affiliates are reporting on news that one won't hear anyplace else.

01:26:37I also want to say something else, which is less than 1% of NPR's budget comes directly

01:26:43from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting grants.

01:26:46In fact, in 2022, NPR received just over $5.5 million in these grants from CPB.

01:26:56Mr. Aaron, I want to ask you, I know you don't work for NPR, but in your knowledge, is this

01:27:02fact true?

01:27:04To the best of my knowledge, Congresswoman, it is true.

01:27:07I think that the important thing here is that those are the direct subsidies that go to

01:27:12NPR.

01:27:13Of course, stations also want NPR programming because their listeners want it.

01:27:17The reason they're paying for that programming is they want to hear, of course, the local

01:27:21coverage where we really need to be investing, but also international coverage, also national

01:27:25coverage, also the marquee interview programs.

01:27:28These are what keep listeners tuning into these stations.

01:27:31This is why this service is so popular.

01:27:33That's why it's the public broadcasting system, right?

01:27:36Because they'll cover issues like that that may not be economically advantageous for a

01:27:42commercial station to cover, correct?

01:27:45That is the mission of the system, is to do the stories that are going uncovered elsewhere.

01:27:50When the commercial media is all over a story, it is not necessarily NPR's job to just echo

01:27:56that, to just tell people the same story they're hearing from their favorite cable channel

01:28:01or their favorite local broadcaster.

01:28:03It is to do other original reporting and break their own stories.

01:28:07Excuse me.

01:28:08Mr. Graham had many examples of what he saw were failures by NPR to cover, but all the

01:28:14things he mentioned were widely covered in all of the rest of the press, from Fox News

01:28:19to MSNBC and everything else in between.

01:28:22Is that right?

01:28:23As far as I know, we're talking about 30 or 40 years of coverage where I can't imagine

01:28:28the number of stories that would have happened.

01:28:31Of course, it doesn't mean NPR people can't criticize the stories.

01:28:35I hear stories all the time.

01:28:36Oh, I wish they'd done this.

01:28:37I wish they'd quoted this person.

01:28:38But it's the aggregate.

01:28:39It's the coming back.

01:28:40It's the staying on the beats that's what matters, especially at that local level, and

01:28:44especially, as you pointed out, when there are no longer other journalists, for example,

01:28:49we're covering what happens in Congress because of that corporate consolidation that Mr. Ruiz

01:28:53was raising up, where the newspapers just simply closed their bureaus here in D.C.,

01:28:58where commercial broadcast television isn't covering an individual delegation.

01:29:02Those are the places we need public media to step up, and where, fortunately, in places

01:29:05like Colorado, it is doing so.

01:29:07Thank you.

01:29:08I yield back.

01:29:09The gentlelady yields back and now recognizes the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Palmer, for

01:29:14his five minutes of questions.

01:29:15Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:29:16Mr. Chairman, I'd like to respond to my Democratic colleagues' concerns about local media and

01:29:21the role that NPR plays in that.

01:29:25There was an article that pointed out that traditional outlets like the New York Times

01:29:29have moved so far to the left that they and other national outlets have lost the trust

01:29:34of most Americans, who now place more trust in state and local media.

01:29:40In response to that, left-wing foundations have made massive investments in nonprofit

01:29:46journalism and related efforts, most notably the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation

01:29:53put up $500 million over five years in hopes of fundamentally upending the local news marketplace

01:30:00and buying a place in the local news.

01:30:05Now, Mr. Graham, Mr. Irwin, you can respond to this.

01:30:09I think it's pretty evident that content is driven by your revenue sources.

01:30:16Would you agree with that?

01:30:17Yes or no?

01:30:18Yeah, I mean, there has been this tendency now in public media, obviously, they'll tell

01:30:24you that they're provided, you know, they're supported by the MacArthur Foundation or something.

01:30:28Private journalism, too.

01:30:30Well, and Mr. Irwin, if you'd like to respond, it's a yes or no, really.

01:30:34Yes, and that includes tax dollars.

01:30:37Well, the point that I want to make is that you agreed that revenue drives content.

01:30:44If you're not providing the content, then the money's not going to be there.

01:30:49And we've kind of gotten wrapped around the ax a little bit about taxpayer funding of

01:30:54this, which I think is wrong.

01:30:55Frankly, I think we shouldn't be funding left-wing propaganda.

01:31:00But I do think we need to look at the content and the source of revenue.

01:31:05And if you start looking at, for instance, who funds these organizations, they're the

01:31:09same people who make political contributions to left-wing Democratic candidates.

01:31:16They're also, this is what's really interesting to me, some of these foundations are the same

01:31:22people who are funding the pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

01:31:25I mean, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, for instance, the Rockefeller Brothers Fund,

01:31:30David Rockefeller has been very open about his support of some of these demonstrations

01:31:36and is a major supporter of Democratic candidates.

01:31:40Mike and Nick Pritzker, the Hyatt Hotel family, same thing.

01:31:45You look at Arabella, which is a conglomerate of funding sources of left-wing foundations.

01:31:54William and Flora Hewlett, David and Lucille Packard, the Ford Foundation, Robert Wood

01:31:58Johnson, Gordon Betty Moore Foundation, the MacArthur Foundation, isn't it interesting

01:32:03that these are the same people who fund NPR?

01:32:06Would you think it would have an impact on content, Mr. Brown?

01:32:09Yeah, I mean, obviously, the socialist critique of the news media used to be that, you know,

01:32:16if Ford's funding the news media, then it must all be pro-big business.

01:32:20Well, a lot of times today in public broadcasting, when you just listen to them saying, the show

01:32:24is brought to you by the Public Welfare Foundation for Transformative Justice, I mean, they do

01:32:29announce basically, we're giving money to get a certain result.

01:32:35Back under the Obama years, NPR actually took money from a charity called the Ploughshares

01:32:40Fund, explicitly to report on the Iran arms, or the, you know, the Iranian arms thing.

01:32:47They were supporters of giving Iran arms.

01:32:50These are the same foundations that are funding the radical climate agenda that has caused

01:32:55food prices to skyrocket, household energy costs to skyrocket.

01:32:59They're the same people who abdicate open borders.

01:33:02They're the same radical left funding anarchist groups, or the same individuals behind the

01:33:09foundations who fund Democratic candidates who then abdicate for more left-wing radical

01:33:14policies that have created the border crisis, made food unaffordable, and have made our

01:33:20communities less safe.

01:33:23And so, my point, gentlemen, and my colleagues, is that what we're really talking about here

01:33:29is a major network funding a propaganda machine that supports left-wing policies, that completely

01:33:41ignores conservative points of view, that the same people who are funding this propaganda

01:33:47machine is also funding liberal Democratic candidates, and they're the same people funding

01:33:54these protesters and these anarchist groups.

01:33:57Gentlemen, you're welcome to respond.

01:33:59Mr. Graham, Mr. Irwin?

01:34:00I would just add that Catherine Marr comes from this world.

01:34:04She was previously the head of the Wikimedia Foundation.

01:34:06She is on the board of Signal, and she's explicitly said the First Amendment is a problem.

01:34:11I know her tweets have become somewhat famous, but she's one of their operatives, and absolutely,

01:34:16taking over NPR is part of their desire to drive what everyone's able to think and what

01:34:21narratives are allowed in our society.

01:34:22I just think you have to look at the 990s and, you know, look at who's funding this

01:34:28to really understand what's going on here.

01:34:30Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to have this.

01:34:32I think this hearing was justified, and we should have had it a long time ago.

01:34:38And I agree with my Democratic colleagues, I'd be happy to have another hearing and bring

01:34:42the CEO of NPR in here to answer some of these questions.

01:34:46And I hope we will at a time that's more convenient.

01:34:50The gentleman yields back now, recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Tonko, for five

01:34:54minutes of questioning.

01:34:55Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:34:56Before I get into my comments and questions, let me just acknowledge that I understand

01:35:01that Ms. Mayer has submitted, the CEO of NPR has submitted formal testimony to the subcommittee,

01:35:09and that she is working actively to determine a date by which to appear for the subcommittee.

01:35:15So I just wanted to state that for the record.

01:35:17NPR is a trusted daily news source for millions of Americans, and its affiliate stations are

01:35:22pillars of their local communities, particularly in rural areas like many of those in New York's

01:35:2720th Congressional District.

01:35:29For many small markets, the local NPR affiliate station might be the last remaining local

01:35:34news source and only reliable source of information during extreme weather or other emergencies.

01:35:40Unfortunately, my Republican colleagues seem to disagree, which is why they're wasting

01:35:45time with the hearing attacking NPR.

01:35:48While the majority pretends to care about public media and say they simply want to protect

01:35:53it from bias, they ignore the very real threat to independent public journalism posed by

01:35:58some of their most ardent supporters.

01:36:01Project 2025 is a framework drafted by conservative activists meant to serve as a policy roadmap

01:36:07for a future Republican administration.

01:36:10Alongside schemes to use federal agencies to settle political vendettas, our plans to

01:36:15punish public broadcasters for unfavorable reporting, harkening back decades to similar

01:36:21efforts by President Nixon to purge public broadcasters of critical commentary and make

01:36:26them beholden to White House policy directives.

01:36:29I have provided staff with a document for inclusion in the record of a New York Times

01:36:34article detailing the Nixon administration's concerted effort to control public broadcasters

01:36:40for political gain and ask that this article be submitted into the record.

01:36:47We will take a look at it and take that up at the end of the hearing.

01:36:51Republicans' lack of real evidence to back up their claims pointed to NPR listeners reported

01:36:56political leanings in surveys and changes in overall listenership underscores the weak

01:37:01and brazenly partisan nature of their complaints.

01:37:06Republican presidents and members of Congress have spent decades telling voters not to trust

01:37:10mainstream media outlets like NPR and have been trying to undermine public broadcasting

01:37:16ever since the Public Broadcasting Act became law more than 50 years ago.

01:37:21If the news doesn't support their worldview, they call it biased.

01:37:25So Mr. Aaron, I have a question for you.

01:37:27What has happened to democracies in other countries when a political party tries to

01:37:31discredit media organizations with which they disagree?

01:37:36Thank you for the question, Mr. Conko.

01:37:38I think it's very dangerous, obviously.

01:37:42Attacking the media is one of the first things that precedes larger attacks on functioning

01:37:48democracies and, you know, the rise of authoritarianism.

01:37:53We know that that has happened in other countries.

01:37:55We know that when we look at measures of healthy democracies, it's positively correlated with

01:38:01investment in public media system, the democracies that are providing for their citizens, that

01:38:07have high citizen involvement in the governing process, things like that relates to do they

01:38:14fund public media system.

01:38:15And that is that is unfortunately a list where this country currently is an outlier among

01:38:19major leading democracies, all of which have recognized the importance of investing in

01:38:24public media in order to help keep citizens informed of what's happening where they live.

01:38:30Well, setting up the media for failure and impacting their credibility comes in handy

01:38:36at a time when they disagree with you or report something that is quite aggressive to bring

01:38:41it to the public's attention.

01:38:42And then they you can easily say as a victim that warned everybody that the media was not

01:38:48to be trusted.

01:38:49So, yeah, very concerning dynamics.

01:38:52Independent journalism is essential, I believe, to a functioning democracy.

01:38:57Relentlessly attacking public broadcasters until your supporters no longer trust their

01:39:01public radio station is wrong and not evidence of bias.

01:39:05It is only evidence of the lengths to which Republicans will go to put politics over people.

01:39:10With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.

01:39:13Gentleman yields back.

01:39:14Now recognize the chair of the Health Subcommittee of Energy and Commerce, Mr. Guthrie, for five

01:39:18minutes of questions.

01:39:20Thank you very much.

01:39:21I really appreciate it.

01:39:22You know, the difference in some of the media outlets that people are discussing today and

01:39:26public radio is is federal funding, federal funding.

01:39:29So I mean, there's a distinct difference in the in those two.

01:39:32And I don't agree with stuff that comes off on some networks on television, but we're

01:39:37not here today talking about that because we don't federally fund them.

01:39:39That's people's decision.

01:39:41And it does make us an outlier.

01:39:42I'm glad the United States is an outlier because we have the First Amendment and have the so

01:39:46when you compare us to other countries in the world, I'm glad that we're free and we

01:39:50have free and open press.

01:39:52But the difference is is local is funding.

01:39:55And I and it ties into my question because I can't let it go talking about bluegrass.

01:39:59We all know bluegrass comes from Jerusalem Ridge in Ohio County, Kentucky with Bill Monroe.

01:40:03That's where it originated.

01:40:05And if we had vibrant local news that is broadcast throughout the nation, you can hear great

01:40:11stories on WKYU public radio from Jerusalem Ridge and and Bill Monroe, Blue Moon of Kentucky.

01:40:20And so my question, I guess, is Mr. Hussock, because when I look at this, I have WKYU is

01:40:27Western Kentucky affiliated public radio and their television station as well.

01:40:32And I know the journalists on there, they work hard.

01:40:35I don't always agree with the way they cover me, but I absolutely think they do it in a

01:40:40fair way.

01:40:41Sometimes the stories they do that are fair.

01:40:44And I think that's the judge.

01:40:45If you are always biased against you, that's one thing.

01:40:47If they cover you in a positive way, sometimes in a negative way, and sometimes that's just

01:40:51that's just fair.

01:40:52And so I view it that way.

01:40:54And they're hardworking.

01:40:55And so the big question, it just seems so we cherry pick evidence.

01:40:59I've listened to all things considered several times and I'll listen to it.

01:41:03And I can see how some of my friends on the other side think they're being fair.

01:41:06But I can tell you just the way they that I know the inside of how a bill passed or

01:41:11bills moving or legislation or an issue.

01:41:14And I know they're not presenting the information in a way that's that's even unbiased, not

01:41:19even favorable.

01:41:20They slant it in a way that they want their audience to hear it.

01:41:23And I can see why people their demographic of who listens to them because that's what

01:41:27they want to hear.

01:41:28So Mr. Hussock, how does this what's going on at the national level affect these local

01:41:32affiliates who have good journalists that work hard?

01:41:35And how is this?

01:41:36How are they being the bias at the national level seems to be affecting people at the

01:41:40local level?

01:41:41Thank you for that question.

01:41:42I want to get involved in the bluegrass discussion.

01:41:47You need to turn your mic on.

01:41:49Sorry.

01:41:50I'm going to avoid the bluegrass discussion between Kentucky and Southwest Virginia.

01:41:54There's not a discussion.

01:41:55It's fact.

01:41:56They have good music.

01:41:57Bill.

01:41:58But if you give Bill Monroe credit, it's fine.

01:42:00But if they are, you can't argue with the Stanleys either.

01:42:04And what's been happening in the local level at NPR stations is very interesting.

01:42:10More and more of them are understanding that the market failure that motivated President

01:42:15Johnson to start the public broadcasting system in the first place is affecting their localities.

01:42:22And more and more of them are specializing in local news.

01:42:25WNYC in New York is the one of the largest news providers in New York City.

01:42:32And it's all over the country, Chicago, Boston.

01:42:36But these stations are also having to lay off because their revenues are down because

01:42:41they have to send so much of their money to Washington.

01:42:46So the effect is to make it more difficult for them to provide what the market is failing

01:42:54to provide the whole what the economists called market failure.

01:42:58When does government get involved when there's a market failure?

01:43:01We are seeing a market failure in local journalism.

01:43:04And that can be a role, a better role for local public radio, but not if they can't

01:43:10keep the money that we're sending to the CPB.

01:43:15So I guess I would kind of answer my next question.

01:43:20So how would it improve the current audience?

01:43:22What do you think would happen to the current audience if we decentralize it?

01:43:26What would happen to the current audience?

01:43:28What would change in the current audience?

01:43:29Certainly you say it's higher income progressives that listen to public radio.

01:43:34How would you perceive the market or the audience changing for public radio if we followed your

01:43:41system of the decentralization?

01:43:43Yeah, a very important point to keep in mind about local public radio stations.

01:43:50They're only getting about 8% of their funding from the CPB.

01:43:53They have to send a large portion of that to Washington, a significant portion.

01:43:58But they rely on their local listeners.

01:44:01They face a sort of a market test.

01:44:03They have to make sure that they're not alienating their local listeners.

01:44:08And so they'll be providing something that people want in order to keep their doors open.

01:44:14And that way they'll be producing programming that in my hope will be shared with the National

01:44:21Public Radio Network, NPR, and will reflect a wider.

01:44:26It's not so much a diversity of philosophies and ideologies.

01:44:30I hope that's kept out of the news altogether, frankly.

01:44:33But it would be windows into what's going on across America in a variety of ways.

01:44:38And that way we would hear different voices.

01:44:41And I think it would provide a better rationale for National Public Radio.

01:44:47Thank you.

01:44:48My time's expired.

01:44:49I yield back.

01:44:50Gentleman yields back.

01:44:51Now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Peters, for his five minutes question.

01:44:55Thank you.

01:44:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:44:57Thanks for the hearing.

01:44:58I have been in and out.

01:44:59But in the conversation today, we've heard a lot about NPR and its national reporting

01:45:03and programming.

01:45:04And I urge NPR to consider making a renewed effort in that.

01:45:08I'll talk a little bit more later in nonpartisan journalism.

01:45:11But there is a crucial mission of local reporting executed by NPR member stations across the

01:45:17country.

01:45:18Five NPR affiliate stations serve listeners in my district.

01:45:20And I want to thank the hardworking journalists at the stations in my district and the stations

01:45:25across the country for bringing the news directly to the people.

01:45:28These local reporters and stations are critical in meeting residents where they are with local

01:45:31news tailored to community interest.

01:45:34And I think other people have mentioned, Ms. Castor in particular, the difficulty with

01:45:39local newspapers.

01:45:41According to AP, the decline of local news in the U.S. is speeding up to the point where

01:45:45our country has lost one-third of its newspapers and two-thirds of its newspaper journalists

01:45:49since 2005.

01:45:51I'm seeing this trend reflected at home in San Diego.

01:45:54In 2018, the same investment, an investment firm bought both the LA Times and the San

01:45:58Diego Union-Tribune.

01:45:59But by 2023, sold off the Union-Tribune and to a company whose orientation was to make

01:46:07huge cuts.

01:46:08I think they're still doing great work there, but they're just not resourced for it.

01:46:11And I think that's one of the reasons why I support the investment of the federal government

01:46:17in local news through PBS.

01:46:21And I think, Mr. Hussock, I've heard the local stations complain about having to pony up

01:46:26to the national, too.

01:46:27So I understand what you're saying.

01:46:30But let me just say that one of the problems I have with the presidency of Mr. Trump was

01:46:37his attack on some of the institutions that government doesn't regulate.

01:46:42We don't own education.

01:46:43We don't do science.

01:46:45But he attacked that sort of the truth of science of the justice system.

01:46:50He attacked the integrity of the justice system and journalism, fake news.

01:46:55And I don't necessarily think that journalism has really done a good job of responding to

01:47:02it.

01:47:03And I'm asking, Mr. Aaron, we tend to get into these very binary discussions here, but

01:47:09I want NPR and I want those stations to take these criticisms really seriously.

01:47:15Because what we need as elected officials, we need a conversation that we don't often

01:47:20have in Congress, which is what are the nuances?

01:47:22What are the what are the pluses and minuses on this issue?

01:47:24And you don't always get that.

01:47:26I think you get that less and less from journalism in general.

01:47:29We see more celebrity journalists.

01:47:31I mean, in my own community, I've got journalists who tweet about issues as if they're activists.

01:47:36And I look and say, isn't that the reporter supposed to be telling me about this?

01:47:40If I were a news agency, I think I'd want to, for my own credibility, I want to take

01:47:45a hard look at that and maybe even cut back on that.

01:47:49The you know, the thing is, what we need here out of journalism is we need people to tell

01:47:53us what to think about, not what to think.

01:47:56And I mean, I this is from a lot of news outlets.

01:47:59I see a real point of view and I see that on the right and left.

01:48:03Some of them don't apologize for it.

01:48:05I mean, Fox News and Newsmax, they know what they're about.

01:48:09Others do it without admitting it.

01:48:11And I'm not but with respect to NPR, you've got serious criticisms out there about objectivity

01:48:17that I think need to be met.

01:48:21And you know, I think some what we talk about diversity ought to be diversity of opinion

01:48:26ought to be a diversity of political opinion.

01:48:28I think that's a legitimate question.

01:48:31And you know, I just I don't think that I don't think NPR is going to be defunded.

01:48:36I think there's a lot of folks on both sides of the aisle who really do trust it and rely

01:48:40on it at a local level.

01:48:42But we don't have any input from the federal government side to any other news organizations,

01:48:47right?

01:48:48This is the only one we provide funding to.

01:48:50And I'm asking for some leadership in the field of journalism in general, to bring about

01:48:56some credibility and some and really think hard about the perceptions that people have

01:49:02that you're on one side of the other.

01:49:04And again, I'm not not as concerned about people who overtly make that their business

01:49:09as I am about NPR and local stations.

01:49:12So we could talk more specifically about it.

01:49:16But I just wanted to say that these criticisms are, they're real in the sense that a lot

01:49:25of people carry them.

01:49:26And people, not everyone in this room has that viewpoint, but people do have that viewpoint

01:49:31about some of the journalism in these stations.

01:49:36And I just hope that NPR will take the opportunity to look at it seriously.

01:49:43And I yield back.

01:49:47Gentleman yields back.

01:49:48I now recognize Mr. Joyce for his five minutes of questioning.

01:49:53Thank you, Chairman Guffey and Ranking Member Kassler for holding this hearing today and

01:49:56allowing me to wave on.

01:49:58Thank you to all of our witnesses for testifying.

01:50:01Truly, all things being considered, it is disappointing that no one from NPR, particularly

01:50:07the Catherine Mayer, is not present with us here today to defend the funding that they

01:50:12receive from the federal government in face of the claims of a political bias.

01:50:18One would think that my constituents in South Central and Southwestern Pennsylvania would

01:50:23be a target, our audience, for NPR.

01:50:27Rural listeners who rely on radio for news, for emergency alerts and more should be who

01:50:32are listening.

01:50:33They are not.

01:50:34However, this audience is exactly not listening because NPR is alienating them.

01:50:41NPR is failing at their core tenets by perpetrating leftist bias in their news and in their reporting.

01:50:49And as uncovered by Yuri Berliner, this is all in spite of being funded by American

01:50:55taxpayer dollars.

01:50:58This is a cultural bias, it is a political bias and certainly at times it's a moral bias.

01:51:05What we're seeing from NPR is that they're pushing liberal viewpoints and in fact, just

01:51:09this morning, they were on the radio podcast, Up First, defending TikTok and the Chinese

01:51:16Communist Party, comparing our actions to stop the spread of the Chinese Communist Party's

01:51:22spyware to China's Great Firewall, which is used to censor speech and intimidate political

01:51:29opponents, calling it, I'm quoting, an eye for an eye.

01:51:33NPR was intended to bring Americans the news, not to cater to one particular political party.

01:51:40NPR has a mission statement and they need to return to that mission statement, which

01:51:45says it will serve the individual and regard the individual differences among men with

01:51:51respect and joy rather than derision and hate.

01:51:56Mr. Graham, how far do you believe that NPR has strayed from that original mission to

01:52:01deliver unbiased reporting and news?

01:52:04A long way.

01:52:05I think that this is, as the gentleman from California was suggesting, it's not hard to

01:52:10attempt a balanced story.

01:52:14Obviously, somebody could come to this hearing and quote the Democrat point of view and a

01:52:19Republican point of view.

01:52:20And this is exactly what we see so many times, is that they're only going to choose the point

01:52:26of view that they want.

01:52:27And they'll say, well, we included a Republican point of view, as Liz Cheney saying, the president's

01:52:32a horrible person.

01:52:32I mean, that's fake balance.

01:52:34But I mean, I think that there is a, it can be done.

01:52:38Balanced journalism can be done.

01:52:40Factual journalism without a lot of opinion can be done.

01:52:45Are you aware of any internal checks and balances, that balance that you talk about that NPR

01:52:50has in place to ensure that there is fair reporting?

01:52:54I don't think there's any evidence of internal.

01:52:57They talk about how they have robust conversations about journalism inside.

01:53:02Obviously, Mr. Berliner was trying to provide that robust conversation.

01:53:06The point that he was making in his article was nobody was really changing anything.

01:53:10They would listen to him politely.

01:53:13Nothing changes.

01:53:14I can certainly say from listening to it, they're not attempting fairness and balance.

01:53:19They're not even close.

01:53:20We would acknowledge it if there was some attempt.

01:53:25Mr. Irwin, do you feel that NPR reporters are objective or are they actually an array

01:53:31of activists who are on the air?

01:53:33They're definitely closer to an array of activists on the air.

01:53:36I don't want to paint all of them with the same brush because there are certainly people

01:53:39there who work really hard.

01:53:41Many of them are sincere and really think they're presenting objective information.

01:53:45They come from a skewed perspective.

01:53:47They come from the type of people who listen to NPR.

01:53:50It's affluent progressives who tend to be in major urban centers.

01:53:52I want to quickly note that there's been some conflating of the national and local affiliates

01:53:57in this hearing today.

01:53:58There's been a lot of talk about local news and the dependence of rural areas like you

01:54:01mentioned as well.

01:54:03As you've made clear, what we are talking about is the national public radio, not local

01:54:09public radio.

01:54:10The people who staff that do not represent rural areas.

01:54:14They do not represent Mrs. DeGette's district, for example.

01:54:17In short, yes.

01:54:19Mr. Irwin, what specific steps should we in Congress take to make sure that NPR is more

01:54:25accountable to the taxpayer?

01:54:27I think that our policy suggestion of making it a voluntary contribution you can make in

01:54:31your tax form, like for the federal elections fund, will allow people who like NPR to contribute

01:54:36and people who don't like NPR won't be forced to.

01:54:39Then NPR can take that and like every other media outlet, they can cater to the audience

01:54:44that wants to support them, which will probably mean they'll continue to cater to what they

01:54:47already cater to, but they won't receive taxpayer money for it.

01:54:50The alternative is something I wouldn't want to suggest, which is that Congress has to

01:54:54actively police the balance.

01:54:56Editorial independence is rightfully prized by NPR.

01:54:59If they're going to enjoy it, they shouldn't be funded by taxpayers.

01:55:01I agree that editorial independence is a part of our Constitution, but when it is being

01:55:07funded to a biased organization like NPR, American taxpayers must stop paying for it.

01:55:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman, again for allowing me to wave on.

01:55:16My time has expired.

01:55:18I yield back.

01:55:19The gentleman yields back.

01:55:21We have what would appear to be one more member who would like to ask questions.

01:55:26Do you need a minute to get your info?

01:55:28Okay, we'll figure it out.

01:55:32We'll give you a second or two.

01:55:34We appreciate the witnesses being here today, and I believe this is our last member to ask

01:55:39questions, and then we'll close out.

01:55:42We do appreciate you all being here, and give him just another second.

01:55:48This is what happens when we have multiple committees and multiple subcommittees going

01:55:51at the same time.

01:55:52Sometimes people are racing from one to another, and he knew he only had about 20 or 30 seconds

01:55:56to get here, and he raced through the door just in the nick of time.

01:56:00All right.

01:56:01With that being said, I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Crenshaw, for five

01:56:04minutes of questioning.

01:56:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:56:06Thank you for letting me catch my breath a little bit.

01:56:09Thank you all for being here.

01:56:10I'm disappointed that the new CEO is not here.

01:56:14It shows a severe lack of courage, not showing up to this committee, and answering some simple

01:56:22questions about political bias for what is an extremely important organization, a taxpayer-funded

01:56:28organization that prides itself, supposedly, on unbiased news reporting, but that's just

01:56:34not what we've seen from NPR in recent years, and I'm happy to let our witnesses comment

01:56:39on that here in a second, but it's been observed pretty accurately that NPR has been used as

01:56:47a tool to protect Hunter Biden, refusing to publish stories about Mr. Biden in his laptop.

01:56:54NPR's managing editor even claimed that it wasn't a real story, but simply a distraction.

01:56:59If that wasn't enough, they pushed pro-Chinese Communist Party propaganda onto their listeners,

01:57:03going so far as to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the Communist takeover of China, sending

01:57:07one of their own reporters to Beijing to praise the CCP, I guess to get in their good favor.

01:57:12I don't know what their excuse would be for that, and all while taking taxpayer dollars.

01:57:20There's obviously a need for improvement in the culture, an acknowledgment that there

01:57:24is bias in this newsroom, and yet the new CEO was just hired, has dreams of sampling

01:57:32baklava with Kamala Harris, and called former President Trump a deranged racist sociopath,

01:57:37so that's not unbiased.

01:57:42Catherine Mayer informed us she would not be testifying today, I guess she'd want to

01:57:46answer these questions.

01:57:47So, Mr. Graham, if I may start with you, you've collected a pretty impressive assortment

01:57:52of NPR's failures and failures to have unbiased reporting.

01:57:58Give us your thoughts on that, and is Ms. Mayer a good fit to change course?

01:58:04Oh, I don't think there's any intention to change course.

01:58:07I think that's why she was selected.

01:58:11It would be interesting to hear her try to explain, you know, what it is that they're

01:58:16trying to do.

01:58:18Because when we listen to this radio network on a regular basis, it's quite clear.

01:58:24You can understand why the Democrats don't want to have a hearing about this.

01:58:27It works very, very well for them, right?

01:58:30You can understand why the gentleman from Free Press has to say he's not here to represent

01:58:35public broadcasting, but they are very closely affiliated and fight for the funding together.

01:58:41You know, obviously, Democrats like the system exactly as it is right now.

01:58:48And so the very least we can do is, yes, have the CEO in and try to explain who in there

01:58:54is doing anything to suggest maybe we should have a more balanced set of interviews, right?

01:59:02Let's have a more balanced set of journalists.

01:59:05You won't see anybody from Fox News on NPR.

01:59:07No.

01:59:08And you would think that's the whole point.

01:59:09If you're going to do unbiased media, then it has to be unbiased.

01:59:13Biased media is okay.

01:59:14You know, just admit it, though.

01:59:17MSNBC does not try to claim that it's unbiased.

01:59:20I don't even think Fox tries to claim it's unbiased anymore.

01:59:22It's just not, right?

01:59:25We've had biased media in this country since our founding.

01:59:30But if you're going to be a taxpayer-funded media company, you actually have to adhere

01:59:35to the principles of unbiased news broadcasting, or say the quiet part out loud.

01:59:41Maybe that's the benefit of the new CEO.

01:59:42She has said the quiet part out loud pretty clearly.

01:59:45And so there can be no question about what direction NPR is headed, and it can be simply

01:59:50written off, and maybe we should look at ways to defund it.

01:59:56How would we in Congress perhaps have some suggestions on how we would change coercion

02:00:02NPR?

02:00:03Anybody want to take that via funding mechanisms?

02:00:06Yeah, so our suggestion is that a box be added to the tax return for individuals to check,

02:00:12like for the Federal Elections Fund, that makes it a voluntary contribution.

02:00:16That would still be a huge favor to NPR, because you'd be giving them free fundraising appeals,

02:00:20but you would not be forcing working and middle-class taxpayers to fund programming that caters

02:00:24to affluent elite types.

02:00:26And I just also wanted to mention, Congressman, that my sister and her family moved to your

02:00:30district last year, and I think they're watching us today.

02:00:33Very lucky.

02:00:34Very lucky.

02:00:35It's great.

02:00:36I hope they didn't flood.

02:00:37We had a lot of rain this weekend.

02:00:38We're working on it.

02:00:39So anyway, I appreciate y'all being here.

02:00:41I look forward to hopefully engaging with the new CEO of NPR, and thank you, Mr. Chairman,

02:00:49for bringing this topic to light.

02:00:51It's an important one.

02:00:52People have to know what's real and what isn't, what's opinion and what is news.

02:00:57And again, it's okay to have opinion.

02:01:00I think the main downfall of our national discussions in the last 20, 30 years have

02:01:05been the inability to distinguish between what is editorializing, what is opinion newsmaking,

02:01:13and what is actual, unbiased news.

02:01:15Making actual, unbiased news is hard.

02:01:18It was supposed to be why we had something like NPR, was to create that, because there's

02:01:25not really a market for it.

02:01:26So it makes sense that it would have to be taxpayer-funded, but then it actually has

02:01:29to be that, unbiased.

02:01:32I appreciate you, and I yield back.

02:01:34Gentleman yields back.

02:01:36Seeing that now there are no further members wishing to ask questions, I would like to

02:01:41thank our witnesses again for being here today and taking your time to share your thoughts

02:01:45with us.

02:01:46I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents included on the staff hearing

02:01:50documents list.

02:01:51That does include the document that Mr. Tonko earlier presented.

02:01:56Without objection, that will be the order.

02:01:58Pursuant to committee rules, I remind members they have 10 business days to submit additional

02:02:02questions for the record, and I ask the witnesses to submit their responses within 10 business

02:02:07days upon receipt of those questions.

02:02:10And without objection, the committee is adjourned.

02:02:13Thank you.

House Committee On Energy And Commerce Holds A Hearing On 'Accusations Of Ideological Bias At NPR'

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