Outlook's Editor Chinki Sinha in conversation with Waheed Ur Rehman Parra. The president of the PDP's youth wing was arrested by NIA in 2020 over alleged terror ties. He is now contesting from the Srinagar Lok Sabha seat.
Videographer: Romana Manpreet
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Videographer: Romana Manpreet
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NewsTranscript
00:00 I was myself detained, arrested, first detained, arrested, then booked under UAP, terror law,
00:07 by NIA, then SIA.
00:26 So I wanted to ask about the silence. We have been talking a lot about the silence and our story actually deals with this uncanny, eerie silence since 2019.
00:36 Hardly any protest, 370 abrogation happened, nothing. Why do you think there is this silence?
00:42 What happened in the immediate aftermath of the abrogation?
00:46 I think the movement top elite, political elite of J&K was detained.
00:51 Like the former chief minister was arrested. That sent a huge message to the commoners, to everybody on ground,
00:58 that nobody is special here and anyone can be detained, arrested and booked under different stringent laws.
01:06 So I think there is a lot of pressure and fear in that sense and also controlled by the state.
01:12 I was myself detained, arrested, first detained, arrested, then booked under UAP, terror law, by NIA, then SIA.
01:21 These laws are very consuming where for the first time, government is using terror laws against the normal like,
01:29 on the cases you will use PSA like. So PSA was not process driven.
01:34 So you detain a person but then you release immediately also.
01:37 The terror laws are very stringent. The process itself is consuming and it's a punishment itself.
01:42 So it takes a lot of your time. Every month you have to attend in the court, then there is no prosecution response.
01:48 So people are consumed in jails, arrests. So I think that has created a lot of atmosphere that not speaking up.
01:56 And nobody wants to talk and government treats that silence as a peace in many ways.
02:01 That's the government indicator for one of the normalcy here.
02:05 So yeah, I think more than anything, the first thing we are trying to fight for is to reclaim, give people their agency,
02:13 where they can speak at least, whatever they are feeling. They are not expressing anything.
02:18 And the other question I had was that PDP is an ideological thing, it's always self-rule.
02:23 Now that self-rule, you have a lot of these pointers where you talk about rural, you know,
02:29 saffron village, you know, apple, you know, those development things. But also self-rule talks about this trade,
02:36 which is Pakistan occupied Kashmir and all of that. So what does that self-rule mean in today's context?
02:44 Because now the 370 that gave you that sort of autonomy and identity, the identity is also a very interesting part of it.
02:53 And this election 2024 is more about ideological battles.
02:57 I think self-rule is an evolving document. It's a futuristic solution.
03:02 And it's like the only possible solution to Kashmir in many ways,
03:06 because it talks about free movement of goods and people across borders, which is like the future.
03:11 You know, India, the way it pitches itself in South Central Asia, wants to have a world role.
03:17 So Kashmir, geographically, we are located in a very strategic place.
03:21 And self-rule tries to use the geostrategic location of Jammu and Kashmir into the whole geopolitical scene,
03:28 that where the borders become free and like the whole routes and geography becomes like history now, after a point.
03:37 So I think most of it's like it's not a complex document, which is typically like autonomies.
03:44 Autonomy talks about this Kashmir. Self-rule talks about intra-Kashmir relationships and also inter-Kashmir relationships with other side of Kashmir.
03:54 How you are going to deal with those people. So it's not confined.
03:58 And it has even the abrogation of 370 is like, you know, that is specific to this Kashmir.
04:04 So while the self-rule is a very, very broader concept of like it talks about banking, it talks about a cross-LOC trade.
04:12 It talks about revival of all traditional routes, Ravlakot, Punch, all Suchedgarh, Uri, Titwal, Tangdar.
04:22 So it's about also connecting people socially across borders.
04:27 So I think this is the future of Kashmir. It may take some time, maybe because of the jingoistic government.
04:33 You have a nationalistic government, which is more into borders and all.
04:37 But the future belongs like you have a Katarpur corridor today. 10 years before, nobody would have imagined the line,
04:43 which is responsible for the partition of India can become like you have actually a corridor, peace corridor in the name of religion today.
04:52 And both countries are accepting it. So I think future lies somewhere around self-rule.
04:57 So we are very optimistic on that because it includes every sector. It includes trade.
05:03 It includes like the most recent, you have these global warming issues.
05:09 Self-rule does talk about joint disaster management. So the water flows from here to Pakistan to Muzaffarabad.
05:17 So we talk about like how jointly countries can, it talks about joint advisory council on many things like environment, climate change, disaster management, flood management.
05:28 So there are a lot of common grounds where India and Pakistan have to coexist, being neighbors and both sides of Kashmir have to coexist.
05:35 And the free movement of people have to be allowed beyond a point. They cannot stop it.
05:39 So I think it's an evolving document. It's also like it has that acceptance of that, you know, whatever changes are happening in the countries, both countries.
05:49 I think it accepts and assimilates both of them.
05:52 The other thing is that for the last four years, I mean, we especially who are outside Kashmir, we have been seeing a lot of this quote unquote development.
06:01 You know, you have the clock tower, which has been completely renovated or whatever, you know, they've made it new and you did your value.
06:10 It's a very symbolic place. You see a lot of people come there, take selfies and whatnot.
06:15 And there's this, you know, how do I say, there's this sheen, this development, this symbolic situation, you know, taking places like that.
06:25 I think there's, you know, two narratives. There's Naya Kashmir narrative by this government.
06:32 And then there's a real Kashmir, which is beyond the optics, photo, selfies, clock towers and all.
06:39 So, I think there's a lot of development in like visibly you can see, but these projects are not done by this government.
06:48 Most of the smart city project was initiated by PDP government by, you know, when Mahavirbhaji was chief minister.
06:54 The whole concept of smart city was conceived by us. And then obviously it takes time to get implemented.
07:01 Now they take credit of the work which we have done, but it doesn't matter.
07:05 Even if they're taking that credit, yeah, there is visible change in many ways.
07:09 But it's also like, you know, for us, Kashmir is not a real estate issue, which the government is actually treating as.
07:16 This is a more of a human issue. And that's where the whole focus is missing of this government.
07:22 It's at the cost of like ignoring that people need actually healing on ground, that they need acceptance,
07:29 they need acknowledgement in many ways and the dignity of people is not part of development.
07:34 I think that is the main thing which is missing. That they are doing infrastructure development.
07:39 They're doing a lot of physical development, but they're missing on the human account, the emotional connect with Kashmir.
07:46 That they are missing. That's why they haven't filled their candidates here.
07:48 Because they understand we may have built a bridge, but the passengers who are walking on those bridges are not with somewhere with us.
07:55 So, I think that connect emotionally, that's actually missing. And that's where the whole compassion is missing.
08:02 If you look at difference between Delhi and Srinagar, I think the bottom line is that there's no compassion coming from the government.
08:10 The other question is also you had gone with the BJP. Whatever, you know, you had your own reasons for it.
08:18 You know, always in your own ideological statement, you have talked about federalism and those kinds of things.
08:25 Then Gupkar alliance, you know, that didn't work out. So, now this election is taking place after a long time.
08:32 So, with what narrative are you now going to the people because BJP government defeats everybody.
08:39 And now to turn the clock back, it's not going to be that easy.
08:43 I think clearly we made an alliance because of multiple reasons.
08:47 One, we thought this idea of like self-rule solution needs an endorsement from the Union of India, Government of India.
08:53 Even if you had a sort of hostile government or very right-wing government, that's the constituency which matters in India when it comes to resolving real issues.
09:02 So, we thought in this way there's an opportunity of engagement with New India, new governments or with the Hindu India also.
09:09 So, it didn't work because you know, they ditched us. It's not like we made an agenda of alliance.
09:14 They accepted everything and ditched on the middle way.
09:17 So, that happens we are not like accountable for that because we didn't like ditch the government.
09:24 They decided to leave it.
09:26 So, but we made an effort, honest effort thinking that this is solution to many ways that was mentioned in agenda of alliance.
09:33 And then it is difficult definitely PDP had a huge setback on ground because of alliance.
09:38 That's what we are facing. We had a huge like challenge facing people.
09:43 But the only thing that is now coming to our rescue is the stance of Mahatma Govt. for last five years.
09:49 That she has been a only consistent vocal voice on minority issues, on Muslim issues, on Kashmir problems, on trade issues, on resource exploitation, on job issues.
10:01 Every issue on Kashmir and rest of India also where minorities, Muslims were hit.
10:05 I think she's been consistently talking about it very brazenly and she paid a huge cost for it.
10:10 Like the party was fractured completely.
10:13 So, her mother was questioned, family passports were denied, her own passport was denied.
10:18 Mother's passport also.
10:19 Yeah, and her father's grave was investigated.
10:22 So many things, her house was taken.
10:24 So, lot of things have happened in the…
10:26 Yeah, I was detained, lot of people have been arrested.
10:30 So, I think she paid a huge price but then people are somewhere acknowledging that she's been in a way only man in the place who's been talking very tough to BJP.
10:41 You're talking about all these things about getting the youth released from jails.
10:46 You're talking about abrogation, you're talking about… I think you've been most vocal about the silence.
10:50 Aren't you afraid of doing this because you've been charged under UAPA?
10:54 I think I am afraid, honestly, like I paid a huge cost. I've been in cell for like a month in a dark cell, then again in a month in like with a sub-zero temperature.
11:04 I was in a complete solitary cell, small cell. It was completely dark without windows.
11:09 And they used to take me out for questioning repeatedly like 24 hours anytime.
11:15 Hundreds of people will come and question you and repeatedly bombard with you questions.
11:20 And you feel like after a point that everything they're telling is truth.
11:24 Yeah, and what does this confinement in a room does to your mind?
11:28 I think it breaks you a lot. It breaks you emotionally, it breaks your will and you actually forget everything.
11:35 So, it's like a very painful phase and like living in a four-room wall.
11:42 And I was not a separatist, I was not like a militant, I was not a stone-pelter. I was like a proper political pro-India activist.
11:50 And very brazenly with a lot of conviction. I started my activism and politics from school days.
11:57 And I had full faith in the constitution, full faith in India. So, when it happened, it took me a lot of time to process.
12:03 So, I was most of the time in a cell and then anyone will come and pick you and take you into an interrogation cell.
12:10 They will question you, they will humiliate you, they will just make you sit.
12:15 I think every sense that takes out your dignity. So, my clothes were stripped, I was tortured also, thrashed, naked in a way.
12:24 So, a lot of things which are on like, I don't want to talk about all these things.
12:28 But I think, but then this is what's happening with many Kashmiris.
12:34 In the walls of those cells, I will find names of young Kashmiri boys who were from like Pulwama only.
12:41 So, you could relate with them, the whole journey is like. So, these are things I think most of us are facing.
12:47 What helped you in that? What did you remember? What did you think of?
12:52 You know, people hold on to certain things. Think about what did you remember? Family, anything that gave you...
12:58 Yeah, I think family, it brings you immediately closer to the family. And you only remember your loved ones like family.
13:05 You miss most of your family. I think that's immediately. Then you feel like more getting closer to religion, God.
13:12 You feel like you're so much of isolation, it just brings God closer to you in many ways. You feel like you're talking to him.
13:19 Did you feel anyway that isolation that you felt is also the kind of isolation Kashmiris have felt?
13:25 So, I was like, you know, in government, I was heading the PDP's youth wing and I was also running youth programs.
13:31 So, we had all set of definition, misguided youth, rehabilitation of youth.
13:37 A lot of other definitions will give in government or like mainstream youth.
13:43 So, once you go into the jail, detention, so it brings you more closer to realities. Your whole vocabulary changes.
13:51 What is that reality? What is that?
13:53 It brings you closer to pain. It brings you closer to like the trauma Kashmiris are going through.
13:59 And it also brings you closer to the, you know, that reality which we never seen.
14:05 Like when a mother used to come to me and tell me her son is detained. So, I'll say it's okay. Police won't do much.
14:12 So, we will help, we'll call, but we'll also give pacifier. Don't worry, he's safe.
14:18 But when you go through yourself, then you understand what the pain is and why the mother is questioning.
14:24 Because then when I saw like in a very reputed top agency of India, I was questioned, humiliated, dragged,
14:29 clothes were taken away, videos were recorded, so many things which are all out of book.
14:35 So, then you could, you know, feel that what's going on with other families.
14:39 Then jail in itself, then courts, then handcuffs, you know, all that process of humiliation.
14:45 I think that makes people very bitter and that's a trauma that people suffer.
14:52 But then, you know, you get nightmares, you cannot sleep, you get like, you don't sleep for hours in the night.
14:59 So, these are things which people face and I think it traumatizes people and that's what the whole lava of anger here is.
15:06 And it has happened so much. That's what we call sentiment then. Because there's a collective trauma.
15:12 Very good. And did it make you bitter?
15:15 Yeah, sometimes. But then I had also like, I think I had an advantage which other prisoners don't have,
15:21 that there were a lot of people speaking for me. You had a former chief minister talking for me.
15:26 You had a party behind. So, then my family was like pursuing.
15:29 I had lawyers, like battery of lawyers, fighting in trial, high court, supreme court, I went thrice.
15:36 So, it does make you bitter at times. You feel like this country has changed or like,
15:42 you feel like, you know, that they're doing to you because of Kashmir.
15:46 You are a Kashmiri and you have not done anything.
15:49 But then, I think, you know, something, I kept getting some reliefs, delayed reliefs from courts.
16:02 So, that kept my hope alive. Like my first bail in NIA was within 50 days.
16:08 So, that judge took a stand and said there's not even a whisper against him.
16:14 So, that gave me a huge hope that of such a big case, I came out and that was a very strong order.
16:20 Then that gave me a lot of strength to fight the second case.
16:24 Then I went to supreme court three times. I got relief continuously all the three times.
16:29 So, I think that there are some institutions which are still working and giving you hope.
16:35 And judicially, it delays, but you get reliefs. And I think that keeps going on.
16:41 How do you restore dignity and what is this healing thing that you talk about?
16:45 How do you go to people? What do you say to them?
16:47 I think showing solidarity with people. Most of us are alike.
16:50 So, we are all traumatized, the leaders to workers, to everybody.
16:54 I feel like the top leaders to Carter, everybody is sailing in the same boat.
16:59 They're all depressed. But when you meet, you give strength to each other.
17:03 And that's how Kashmir has survived. If we say, we try to keep hope alive, we'll fight.
17:07 We'll stay united. And then we also talk about things.
17:11 This is what you are going through. This is what we are going through.
17:14 This is happening and it's not happening to you only. It's happening to all of us.
17:17 And I think people relate to that conversation.
17:20 Whether it's jobs, whether it's resource exploitation, whether it's a disarmament,
17:25 whether it's a delay of election, delay of democracy, to everything, whatever has been snatched.
17:30 So, people relate to that conversation. And once you are in a village, you are isolated,
17:34 you feel like, I am being garnered. But when you go in meetings, rallies with the people,
17:39 they feel like, yeah, it's collective. It's not happening to me also only.
17:42 It's happening to many people. So, it's a shared pain.
17:45 And I think that itself becomes a process of healing somewhere.
17:49 And what about this omnipresent, ominous kind of silence, which seems very, you know, you don't understand it.
17:56 This is for the first time that Kashmiris are not expressing from 2019.
18:00 They don't give their mind. Even to us.
18:05 It's very difficult. Have they accepted or have they just delayed their response?
18:12 But they're not giving their mind clearly.
18:15 Do you think they have accepted what is coming?
18:18 I don't know.
18:19 I don't know. It's very…
18:20 So, they are different from…
18:21 They are different, but I think Kashmiris, you know, they have a… they just keep things in store.
18:28 And…
18:29 You'll get to see sometime.
18:30 People are waiting, you know, in some sense. They're still expecting something will happen.
18:35 They have expectations, even from Union of India. They just have hope.
18:40 But sometimes you also say hope is your biggest enemy. Because if you look at the history,
18:44 when you look at how things are going otherwise, I think there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of war of words.
18:50 But we have to survive because of hope, you know. We are a place, politically, yeah, I think India has changed a lot.
18:57 The politics has changed. Hate has become a campaign now, which was not earlier.
19:01 The whole harmony is under threat.
19:04 So, you feel dejected when you look towards India and what's happening with minorities in India.
19:09 It gives you more hopelessness.
19:11 But then Kashmir is slightly different than what's happening in the rest of India.
19:17 So, I think there's… we have our own strategic importance and every Kashmiri understands that.
19:24 I think everybody, they may not articulate it, but they realize that we are important in some ways.
19:30 We may not be important politically, but strategically we are important and this place gets that relevance.
19:36 Like they had to do G20, they preferred Kashmir. Like the Prime Minister had to do first rally, he preferred coming to Kashmir.
19:43 So, whatever, like the Chief Justice had to do a conference, he prefers Kashmir.
19:48 European Union, they bring to Kashmir. So, when all this is happening, so they have to do smart cities also.
19:56 They have to paint Lal Chowk. They have to do, you know, all these things,
19:59 which are happening because of the whole strategic importance we have or the attention globally we have.
20:04 And my last question is that if you do get elected, what is the first thing that you will do?
20:09 I think about the youth of Kashmir, which is the main… the future is in perpetual pain and uncertainty.
20:19 And that's where whole anxiety of Kashmiris are.
20:22 Like they don't understand what's going to be the future of Kashmir, the youth of Kashmir.
20:28 And they are gripped with insecurities, lot of insecurities. Abrogation is one of it.
20:34 Uncertainty of future, the relationships, the financial, political, economical relationships, security issues, passport issues,
20:43 verification issues, thought policing and like the cases against the youth of Kashmir.
20:49 They are like Kashmir needs a huge, like amnesty program, where everybody is given a chance to reclaim his life.
20:57 And like be a normal thing. I think that these are major issues.
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