Nicola Procaccini: Reformist group seeking balance of power shift in EU parliament
The right-wing European Conservatives and Reformists Group could change the EU's course over the next five years, if they make big gains in June's European elections. Co-president Nicola Procaccini outlines his vision for Europe in The Global Conversation, with Vincenzo Genovese.
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00:00The coming European elections could be the hour of the conservatives and reformists group,
00:07who are poised to change the balance of power in the European Parliament, where they'll
00:11likely have more MEPs. The conservative parties haven't chosen a lead candidate, as they don't
00:18believe in the Spitzenkandidat system. They no longer want their countries to leave the
00:23European Union, but promise to fundamentally change it. Here in Latina we met with the
00:28group's co-president, the Brothers of Italy MEP Nicola Procaccini, who tells us how they'll
00:33do it in the global conversation.
00:39Thanks for joining us Nicola Procaccini, Brothers of Italy MEP, candidate in the European elections
00:44and co-president of the European conservatives and reformists group. We're in a beautiful
00:49museum dedicated to the 20th century, but we're talking about the future of Europe.
00:54What's your group's vision of Europe, and is it correct to call you Eurosceptics?
01:02No, that's very wrong. We want to go back to the original idea of the European Union,
01:07which is an alliance of nations doing a few things together, but important things, doing
01:12these things that nation states alone wouldn't be able to do in the best way. And we fight
01:21against those who instead want to change the European Union in a federalist sense, which
01:26is not the original model of the European Union. When it was born in 1957 with the Treaty
01:33of Rome, the European community was conceived this way. It was conceived as a community
01:42of states that should not deal with everything, but with a few things. Instead, unfortunately,
01:48over time, there's been an attempt to strip the nations of competencies, bringing them
01:52under the umbrella of the European Union. In this way, in our opinion, an attempt has
02:00been made to homogenise situations that should not be homogenised. Paradoxically, we then
02:05forgot to construct Europe as it was needed.
02:08Some parties argue that the right to veto blocks the European Union. You, on the other
02:13hand, defend it, if I understand that correctly. Why?
02:17We advocate that Europe remain an alliance of nations and not a federalist super-state.
02:22The moment you take away the ability of a government to exercise a veto right that compromises
02:28its national interests, obviously you are moving toward a federalist super-state.
02:35But let me tell you something. To date, it has never happened. It has never happened
02:41that there was a veto that made it impossible to enact a regulation, an idea, a directive.
02:47What has it produced? A negotiation. It produced negotiations that lasted sometimes days, sometimes
02:58weeks, because that is what it should be. The European Union does not have to deal with
03:03everything, but it can deal with a few important things. That's why dividing Europe into A-list,
03:10B-list, C-list and D-list nations goes against the idea of the Europe that we have, an alliance
03:17of nations that does a few things, but important things.
03:22But the Schumann Declaration of 1950 expressly mentions a European federation.
03:27No.
03:28Yes.
03:29Yes, the European Union was born as a confederation, not as a federation of nations.
03:37I'm talking about the Schumann Declaration.
03:39No, that is the Ventotene Manifesto, which is something else.
03:43It is the Schumann 1950 Declaration.
03:47It's another concept. If we had a way to go into it, I would be able to demonstrate it.
03:54It's a self-evident thing that the European Union was not born as a federation, but as
03:59a confederation, and it was born because it was a confederation of nations.
04:05It's a self-evident thing that the European Union was not born as a federation, but as
04:12a confederation, and it was born precisely on coal and steel, that is, on a few things.
04:21For example, the supply of raw materials for energy, which is one of those things where
04:27it's clear that if the states get together, they manage to achieve a better performance
04:31in terms of the quality of the expenditure, as well as the quality of the energy source
04:36than if they were alone.
04:40We can have as many debates as you want.
04:43It's unthinkable that anyone would argue that the European Union was born both as the ECSC
04:49and as the European Community, as a federal estate, as a United States of Europe.
04:57This is something that is totally not real.
05:00So if you want to talk about it, I'm afraid it would take us a little bit off track.
05:06No, it was just to mention precisely the Schuman Declaration.
05:10I could quote de Gaulle and many other fathers of the European Union who were very clear
05:16in this respect.
05:18Your group is growing strongly in the polls.
05:20You don't have a Spitzenkandidat, a chosen lead candidate, so it begs the question,
05:24who would you like to lead the next European Commission?
05:30We don't have a Spitzenkandidat, for the reason I said before,
05:35because there is no Spitzenkandidat in the European treaties establishing the European Union,
05:41because the President of the European Commission is chosen by the governments,
05:47not by the parties, and we insist on that.
05:51We claim the fact that it is the governments who are the only legitimate ones
05:56to choose the head of the European Commission, not the parties.
06:00This is the main reason.
06:03So any other candidate for us is no good, because they are not the candidate of our parliamentary group.
06:10But also because the concept is wrong.
06:14We continue to want to strip the nations and the governments legitimately elected by people
06:19of the powers that are there in black and white in the founding treaties of the European Union.
06:26Today in Europe, radical right-wing parties are often accused of not having totally disavowed
06:31their links with the dictatorships of the 20th century, for example in Spain with Francoism.
06:36Brothers of Italy, your party is often called a post-fascist party in the foreign press.
06:41What's your response?
06:44Better post-fascist than neo-fascist, or other epithets.
06:48The truth is that a resolution was voted in the European Parliament
06:52that firmly condemns all totalitarianisms of the 20th century.
06:57Brothers of Italy, Vox, all parties of all right-wing groups voted for it.
07:02Conversely, the left voted against it.
07:07Especially the Italian Democratic Party, evidently to defend communism.
07:12We condemn them all.
07:18In these five years under the Ursula von der Leyen commission, what have you liked and disliked?
07:24Very little, because it was an almost essentially left-wing European commission,
07:29so much so that Franz Zimmermann's had even more power than Ursula von der Leyen,
07:34even being able to implement the commission's main governing program, the Green Deal.
07:39Fortunately, this is something that will no longer be possible,
07:44because no matter how the European elections go,
07:49we already know that the next European commission will be centre-right,
07:54because the commissioners are appointed by the governments.
07:59They're not appointed by the elections, and the governments are centre-right.
08:04But as conservatives, would you be willing to support von der Leyen or another EPP candidate?
08:09This is something we have to see based on the balance of power,
08:13and the choice of one of our candidates, so let's see.
08:16If you had to choose one goal for the Brothers of Italy
08:19and the European Conservatives and Reformists group for the next parliament, what would you choose?
08:25One goal? Definitely stop illegal immigration and put human beings back at the centre of nature.
08:33The Italian government, led by a conservative party, supported and approved the Asylum and Migration Pact,
08:40a form of European migration policy.
08:42The Polish government, when it was led by a conservative party and even now, is strongly opposed to it.
08:47Is the redistribution of asylum seekers a divisive issue for you conservatives?
08:53The current Polish government voted against it.
08:58And the previous one as well?
09:04This is a key passage, because the current government is from the EPP and is supported by the socialists.
09:11It voted against it. Their parliamentary representations voted against it.
09:16We think that this pact is still not the right way to deal with illegal immigration and immigration in general.
09:24But objectively, it is a first step in the right direction.
09:28That's why we voted for it and supported it.
09:32It's finally going in the direction that Giorgia Maloney has been advocating for years.
09:38However, she was considered a dangerous extremist and fascist who wanted to drown people.
09:44What is the solution?
09:47The solution is to stop the departures, because by the time the migrants are on European soil, it's too late.
09:56The talk of placement and distribution is one that should not even be made.
10:02If we are able to determine upstream who is entitled and who is not entitled to asylum,
10:08we can let in only those who are entitled.
10:12At that point, we are talking about 15% of the overall total of illegal immigration.
10:19We will then be able to break up the most odious business there is, which is that of traffickers.
10:25And at the same time, we will be able to govern a phenomenon that needs to be governed,
10:30because legal immigration is something that all nations need.
10:35But it must be limited in quantity, and if possible, there must be also a choice.
10:41Migrants must also be trained from a professional point of view.
10:47This serves the host nation, and it also serves the migrant,
10:52who at that point is not forced to put himself on the margins of our society or become a worker for organized crime,
10:59but can instead find a place in our societies that is decent for him as well.
11:06We are surrounded in this museum by beautiful cars, vintage cars with combustion engines.
11:11After 2035, will cars with such engines just be museum pieces in Europe, or is there still hope for change?
11:19There is still hope, should what we hope for prevail,
11:24which is the concept of technology neutrality, which is the concept of a free market,
11:29There is still hope, should what we hope for prevail, which is the concept of technology neutrality.
11:36What does that mean?
11:38The example of the thermal combustion engine and the electric motor fits well.
11:43Through biofuels, which are zero emission as an ultimate balance,
11:47it is possible for the thermal combustion engine to survive without necessarily having to surrender to another technology,
11:55that of the electric engine, for which we don't have sovereignty in terms of the production chain.
12:06What does technology neutrality mean?
12:08It means sharing a goal, but leaving the freedom for nations to choose the best technology according to their own specifics.
12:16This is a concept that is close to our hearts, and one that we will strongly support in the coming years.
12:25But in the approved regulation, biofuels aren't there.
12:28No, they are not.
12:29Are you aiming for a waiver?
12:31Absolutely, yes.
12:32Let's stay on this issue and talk about neutrality.
12:35The conservatives and reformists have opposed almost all of the European Green Deal measures.
12:40Do you share the goal of climate neutrality by 2050?
12:48We share the goal of having the least possible impact on the environment and nature.
12:53This has to be done with common sense, with balance.
12:56These are two concepts, common sense and balance, that have been totally banished by the European policy in recent years,
13:05sacrificed on the altar of a perverse ideological furore that has caused CO2 emissions to rise,
13:13because they rose in 2023, despite having plummeted in the European Union.
13:22This has caused a devastation of our competitiveness, as well as a devastation of the environment and nature.
13:30Right now, owners of the green transition, those who are making it, are the Chinese,
13:37who are benefiting competitively from European choices.
13:40At the same time, they are not at all concerned about the environmental standards that we are concerned about.
13:48Because then the batteries, the photovoltaic panels, are made from coal-fired power plants,
13:56without giving a damn about anything else.
14:05So is it too much to aspire to climate neutrality by 2050?
14:11I think it's a goal within reach, but it has to be done with common sense.
14:17The case of biofuels is an example of how common sense is being pushed aside.
14:23This raises questions.
14:25The fact that an environmentally neutral technology is banned and not considered by institutions
14:31makes you think that the economic interests are behind it.
14:36Italy is the country that has benefited most in numerical terms from Next Generation EU,
14:42so far the only joint debt issuance in the history of the European Union.
14:46Would you be in favour of new future common debt schemes?
14:49Let me say that unfortunately Italy is the biggest beneficiary,
14:54because being the one that came out worst from the pandemic, according to the established algorithm,
14:59it consequently had more resources.
15:06After that, the so-called Eurobonds are an invention of the Italian centre-right.
15:12Giulio Tramonti, a former minister in the Berlusconi government,
15:16and now a Brothers of Italy deputy, was the first who spoke of common debt in Europe.
15:21So with us, he has broken through an open door in this respect.
15:28Viktor Orban's Fidesz party is close to your positions on many issues, but not on the war in Ukraine.
15:34Do you think it could join the European conservatives and reformists after the elections?
15:39In the meantime, let me say that Viktor Orban's government voted together with all the other 26 European states
15:46in favour of all aid packages to the Ukrainian people, both economic and military.
15:52From the first to the last.
15:54By slowing them down?
15:57He slowed them down because he was trying to assert his own right,
16:02that of not being politically discriminated against,
16:06as has happened in recent years under the guise of the rule of law.
16:12So much so that the last aid shipment was unblocked,
16:19when it was put in black and white that article 7, the one on the rule of law,
16:25not be used as an ideological weapon to target a government
16:30just because it's of a different political colour than the socialist one.
16:36Do you totally rule out Brothers of Italy joining the European People's Party?
16:41Yes, I totally rule it out.
16:44We are the ECR. We have invested a lot in this political family, in this political tradition.
16:50We will defend it tooth and nail.