Sudan’s War Explained: Proxy’s influence and the devils of Dagalo - Sudanese Ambassador to Rwanda
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00:00 It's been 14 tragic months since the war broke out in Sudan.
00:11 Two factions of powerful military men are engaged in a severe destructive war that has
00:16 spread out across the country.
00:21 The Sudanese army, commanded by General Abdel Fattah al-Burhani, is struggling to oust the
00:26 motivated rapid support forces led by General Mohamed Hamdan Dagaro, also known as Hemet.
00:35 As of April, more than 8 million people have been displaced, including 2 million people
00:40 who have fled to neighboring countries.
00:43 At this point, it would cost more than 200 billion US dollars to repair the damage caused
00:50 by this unfortunate war.
00:53 Sudan has endured its fair share of tragedies, but the current conflict is the worst the
00:57 country has seen in recent memory.
01:02 There is no end in sight and tragically, this war seems to have been abandoned by the international
01:07 community.
01:08 Yet, this conflict is not without beneficiaries.
01:14 Powerful countries from the United States to Russia and the United Arab Emirates are
01:18 all involved in this war directly or indirectly.
01:23 But despite their vested interests, their contributions to peacefully resolve this conflict
01:28 are extremely limited.
01:31 So why is Sudan left banning while no one seems to care?
01:35 What makes Sudan so important that every major country has an interest in this conflict?
01:40 Or which side is more likely to win this war and why?
01:44 To answer these questions, without delay, His Excellency, Karid Moussa Daffaro Moussa,
01:49 the Ambassador of Sudan to Rwanda, for an in-depth discussion about this conflict, its
01:53 root causes, external players and the role of the international community, as well as
01:57 his plans to strengthen the relationship between Rwanda and Sudan.
02:02 His Excellency, welcome to the studio of IJH.
02:05 Thank you very much, my friend Emmanuel.
02:07 I'm really glad and delighted to be at your program at this very reputable institution
02:15 which I support and like very much.
02:17 You've been here for quite a very short time.
02:20 It's been three months, about three months.
02:24 What has been the impression of the country?
02:27 I just arrived three months ago, but really I feel at home.
02:33 I like the country.
02:34 I like the people.
02:37 I have a big community here from Sudanese people.
02:43 They're really enjoying life here.
02:45 They're engaging.
02:46 And I feel at home.
02:48 I like the country.
02:49 I like the people.
02:50 I like the culture.
02:51 And we have a lot of social and cultural connection between Sudan and Rwanda.
02:56 All right, thank you.
02:57 But even if things and the impression has been great here in Rwanda, back to your country
03:03 things are not really great because there has been a conflict which has been ravaging
03:08 your country for more than a year.
03:10 But so many people really don't understand the causes of the conflict and would like
03:14 to ask you what are the root causes of this really tragic conflict?
03:20 Thank you for that question.
03:22 It's very important to highlight some of the facts about the conflict in Sudan.
03:27 First, I would like to correct the narrative.
03:31 This is not a war between two generals.
03:33 It is a war between rebel militia, RSF, against the sovereignty of the country, the political
03:42 independence of the country, and against the people of the country.
03:46 This war erupted like one year ago, as you said, as a clear manifestation to take over
03:54 power based on ethnic and political ambition, which is very unjustified.
04:01 The main root cause is we were in transitional time.
04:09 We have set up the constitutional reference for the transitional time.
04:15 It was a government combined with the civilian and the military component, security component.
04:22 But when the security arrangement for the transitional period starts and we have one
04:29 unified national army, the problem started because RSF was almost 150,000 soldiers.
04:39 They have financial resources.
04:41 They have foreign relations connections.
04:45 They have political status of the country.
04:50 They have social constituency as well.
04:54 So they were resisting to be integrated in one national army.
04:59 They would like to be an independent army without any accountability.
05:04 And this was posing a great danger for the sovereignty of the country, for the political
05:11 independence, and for the democratic transformation at that time.
05:18 Then RSF leadership, when they found difficulties to be independent army and political entity
05:29 together, they set up a coup to take over power, either to arrest or kill President
05:39 Burhan, the commander of the army.
05:41 And they failed.
05:49 Right now, the total loss of the people, 9 million people internally displaced, 1.5
05:58 people refugees in the neighboring countries.
06:01 They were a war crime, war against humanity, ethnic cleansing in just one town.
06:09 In West Darfur, 15,000 people killed based on ethnic background.
06:15 It is a total more than destruction of the country.
06:21 They erupt the social fabric.
06:25 They would like to make a demographic change, the social fabric of the country.
06:31 So going back to your question, the main root causes for this is resisting to be integrated
06:39 in the national army, trying to take over power and impose their own political will
06:45 on the rest of the Sudanese people over there.
06:49 Unfortunately, this war cannot be continued at this scale, at this level, without the
06:54 regional support of other countries in the region.
07:00 And this war should stop based on creating one national army.
07:07 Otherwise Sudan will be in danger for time to come.
07:11 Let's talk about the RACF in particular.
07:14 It's a very huge militant group with so many soldiers, financial muscles, diplomatic muscles.
07:22 They are very strong.
07:25 How did they come to be?
07:27 Where did they come from?
07:29 And especially, how did they become so powerful to the point they are almost equal to the
07:34 army of the country?
07:37 Unfortunately, as you know, and the audience and the reader may know that a country is
07:44 built not in goodwill, not based on goodwill alone.
07:47 But there should be a political system with check and balance, with a constitutional framework,
07:55 with national laws that manage the political process and to safeguard the security and
08:02 national security of the country.
08:04 Our political elite during the transitional time and transitional period after the fall
08:11 of President Bashir at that time, they didn't think seriously how to safeguard the national
08:18 security of the country and the sovereignty of the country.
08:21 RACF was part and parcel of the structure of the security institution, the paramilitary.
08:29 But they are under the chain and command of the national army and under the commander
08:37 of chief of the army.
08:39 Unfortunately, they changed the law to be an independent.
08:44 They got an access to foreign connection.
08:48 They sent their troops outside of the country to Libya and to Yemen.
08:54 And they have financial resources because they control gold mines in the country.
08:59 And the leadership has been elevated to the second political level of the country as a
09:06 vice president.
09:08 All this created the root causes of this because it created political ambition.
09:15 If I'm a vice president, why not with this all political power, with all financial resources,
09:22 to be number one?
09:23 And they have tried to be number one by violence, by breaking out this war.
09:30 And unfortunately, instead of being politically struggled, the guns have been directed to
09:39 the chest of the Sudanese people, the innocent people, the women that have been raped, the
09:47 civilians that have been killed, and the destruction, the whole destruction of the country.
09:53 So it was a mismanagement of the transitional period based on goodwill that cannot work
10:00 in Africa.
10:01 There should be a political and strong structure and constitutional framework and political
10:09 check and balance and separation of power, the judiciary and the executive and the parliamentary
10:17 together.
10:18 So our political elite mismanaged the transitional period and messed up the security arrangement
10:26 against the sovereignty of the country, against the political independence, and against the
10:31 national security of the country.
10:36 So let's talk about the period before everything erupted.
10:42 I'm saying the period of Omar al-Bashir.
10:46 After his time in office when he was removed by the revolution, that's when everything
10:52 started to fall out.
10:54 Do you think it was a mistake to get him out of power?
10:57 And if so, don't you think there was already a vacuum within his administration to control?
11:06 Those two sides of his military.
11:09 You know, political change in the life of nations happen when people feel dissatisfied.
11:19 There is no reason that even the political scientists could think when the revolution
11:25 or political change might happen.
11:27 But different accumulated factors that contributed to the political change at that time when
11:35 the leadership failed to address the concern of the people, definitely people would revolt
11:41 against that one.
11:44 After the fall of Bashir, I wish that there was a smooth transition of power during that
11:51 time to avoid this bad scenario.
11:54 But even after the fall of President Bashir, the problem was that the political elite failed
12:00 to manage the transitional period according to the standard rules and according to our
12:08 accumulated political history.
12:10 We have a political history of three times of transitional period.
12:14 Unfortunately it has been ignored.
12:17 And they're trying to bring a new setup for this.
12:21 Unfortunately it failed because it didn't address correctly the challenges of the national
12:27 security whenever you have two armies in a country, definitely with a political ambition
12:33 and social constituency and foreign intervention and foreign support.
12:40 This kind of relation and formula definitely will lead to a war unless there is a wisdom,
12:48 there is a political leadership that failed this challenge and tried to address it at
12:53 the right time.
12:55 So let's talk also about the relationship of General Burhan and Daggaro.
13:05 Before everything fall out, if I may say, they used to be on the same line after the
13:11 transition.
13:12 They were working together, it seemed, to manage the country.
13:17 What was the reason for their fallout?
13:21 Actually I mean they were president and vice president within a civilian and military combined
13:29 leadership on the Sovereignty Council.
13:32 But at the same time we have a civilian-led government led by Prime Minister Hamdok at
13:38 that time.
13:40 And I guess the problem started when Prime Minister Hamdok resigned.
13:51 He couldn't lead the country to the right direction.
13:55 And the differences and struggle between political elites and political parties that was a political
14:06 base from the transitional period and the competition and wise competition that led
14:12 to his resignation as Prime Minister.
14:15 Then after that the military component tried to manage the transitional period.
14:24 When that happened then militia leader Mohamed Hamdan Daggaro Himetti developed a political
14:36 ambition to take over power.
14:38 For what reason?
14:40 He didn't like to be integrated in the national army because he would lose the advantage of
14:46 being economically independent, financial resources, the foreign connection, and the
14:56 size of his troop would be fully integrated in the army and maybe his political ambition
15:05 would be compromised.
15:07 So it was like a suicidal attempt.
15:12 What he was trying to do to save himself, he aligned himself with some part of the civilian
15:20 component and civilian parties, political parties, to create a new political bloc against
15:26 the army.
15:29 So that was a real formula that led to this.
15:31 I mean, the conclusion and bottom line, it was a mismanagement of the transitional period
15:38 and the division between the two military leaders together.
15:43 The national army, for the benefit of the audience, right now, last year we celebrated
15:52 one hundred years of the army established in Sudan.
16:00 So it is very beautiful.
16:02 It is a national army.
16:04 Everything in Sudan is respected and it has full support of the people of Sudan.
16:10 RSF is paramilitary.
16:14 Militia has no any political cause to take over power or to rule Sudan.
16:19 Has no any political cause.
16:21 There is no political, what do you call it, roadmap for that.
16:29 It was based on political ambition, based on ethnic-oriented policies and demographic
16:35 change in the country.
16:37 So also it is quite really significant the way they've managed to fight, I mean RSF,
16:45 they've managed to fight for this long and fighting intensely around a very huge area
16:51 of a big country like Sudan.
16:54 And this begs the question, where do they get the support?
16:58 Who is behind them?
16:59 If the Sudanese people, as you rightly mentioned, are not supporting them, who else is supporting
17:05 them financially, diplomatically and politically?
17:08 This is a good question.
17:09 There are three elements we have to think about when we answer this question.
17:16 First, they have recruited mercenaries from the neighboring countries.
17:22 More than 40,000 of these troops coming from Niger, coming from Chad mainly.
17:31 The Arab nomads from these countries.
17:36 From South Sudan, some of them, they are coming.
17:42 Some Ethiopia, there are some Ethiopian fighting with them.
17:46 We don't know whether it was a permission or knowledge of the government of Ethiopia,
17:50 but I deny that.
17:51 It is not the knowledge of the government, but they have recruited.
17:55 Who paid them?
17:57 Some coming from Libya.
17:59 Most of these mercenaries, they were fighting in Libya before with Hefter.
18:06 They then moved them all together to Darfur.
18:09 Their ethnic background was Arab nomads coming to fight with them.
18:13 So recruiting mercenaries, this is one of the main chain of supply for the troops to
18:20 fight.
18:21 This is one.
18:22 Two, there is a military supply coming from a regional power.
18:27 That is well documented at the UN Security Council.
18:30 I expect report.
18:32 Just five days ago, Human Rights published a very documented report detailing how the
18:44 atrocities that committed by RSF.
18:46 It is war crimes.
18:47 It is crimes against humanity over there.
18:51 And there is a political support as well from regional power as well.
18:57 So it is not about RSF as an independent political and military power.
19:02 No.
19:03 They are an agent for regional power to carry on their objective to change the political
19:10 landscape and the political leadership in Sudan for the benefit and support and interest
19:17 of other regional power.
19:20 We have seen and we've read some countries which are involved, are regularly involved
19:26 into the conflict in Sudan.
19:28 One particular name that comes up when you look around even on social media is the United
19:34 Arab Emirates.
19:35 Let's say that there are foreign regional and foreign powers that are interested in
19:43 Sudan.
19:44 What interest do foreign powers have in the conflict in Sudan?
19:48 This is a big question that nobody would be able to answer because our historical relation
19:57 between Sudan and the Emirates was deeply rooted in history.
20:03 Deeply rooted in history.
20:05 And we have very good relations before.
20:12 Right now, the UN Security Council, it is well documented.
20:15 It is well documented in the international media, in the CNN, in Washington Post, in
20:22 Wall Street Journal.
20:24 It is in New York Times.
20:26 They are detailing the support of this regional power to Sudan.
20:35 There is analysis.
20:37 That is what are the motivations to carry on this kind of attack against the sovereignty
20:45 of the Sudan and the people of the Sudan.
20:49 This question should be addressed to this country that is supporting this again, is
20:56 the will of the Sudanese people, killing people, raping women.
21:02 And they can help to stop this war right now by stopping their military support, by stopping
21:12 the political support over there.
21:16 And they can create regional peace and stability over there.
21:25 But geopolitical interest and geostrategic interest is there.
21:30 Sudan is a very rich country in terms of natural resources, in terms of geopolitical location
21:37 over there.
21:38 There is a lot of people and countries are interested to engage in Sudan.
21:48 But there is proper channels for government to cooperate together for the interest of
21:56 the two countries.
21:58 If I open the door for you to come, why are you coming jumping by the window?
22:03 I open the door for you for give and take and win-win situation.
22:07 So why are you coming through the window?
22:10 We would like them to knock the door but not to jump from the window.
22:15 And also when you look at one of the biggest, I would say, tragic events that happened to
22:24 Sudan in recent years was the separation of both Sudan and South Sudan.
22:31 It was very tragic.
22:32 I remember how I read the Sudanese people really crying and actually begging that there
22:39 should be a reunification of both countries.
22:42 But that hasn't been the case yet.
22:44 So how has it contributed to the current conflict?
22:49 There has been some suggestions that because of the economic turmoil that followed the
22:54 separation, especially that there were some very mineral-rich areas which went in South
23:01 Sudan and which Sudan relied upon to get the foreign exchange money.
23:07 So has that contributed in any way to the current conflict?
23:13 This is a good question.
23:15 Let me state facts.
23:18 I mean, the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, CPE, stipulated clearly that the political
23:26 process at that time between the SPLM and the government of Sudan is to have two viable
23:33 states in Sudan and South Sudan living together.
23:39 And when the separation happened, it was by the will of Southern Sudanese because the
23:50 referendum, the Southern Sudanese voted 98.5 percent, 0.8 percent for the separation.
24:00 So it was a free will of the Southern Sudanese to secede and to separate.
24:07 So we have two independent countries.
24:09 We respect the sovereignty of South Sudan.
24:12 And we were looking forward to have a very cooperative relation.
24:18 There is a political separation, but socially, culturally, we are together.
24:23 We have the same brotherly connection, bonds and emotions right now.
24:29 But there is a political separation, but not a social separation.
24:32 The problem when this South Sudan seceded voluntarily and with free will of the people
24:40 of Southern Sudan, Sudan lost 25 percent of its financial resources based on oil over
24:52 there.
24:54 South Sudan lost as well.
24:57 So the separation led to weaken the economic structure of the two countries.
25:06 But there is some kind of interdependency economically because the oil of South Sudan
25:12 right now through the pipeline exported through the Red Sea to the international oil market
25:20 over there.
25:22 To answer your question, I guess, yes, we both suffer, Sudan and South Sudan, of this
25:27 separation.
25:28 We could not address adequately the economic consequences of this separation and to find
25:38 ways and means to compensate the loss of the natural resources that we missed together.
25:47 But there is a chance, again, to work closely to overcome this problem.
25:55 I guess Sudan is suffering, South Sudan is suffering, not economically but also about
26:02 how to recreate a nation-state that is inclusive for all with a very sound and strong political
26:11 system.
26:12 I think this is the main challenge that is facing the political elites in South Sudan
26:16 and in Sudan right now.
26:20 But we respect the political will of Southern Sudanese to be an independent state.
26:25 So just recently we've read that Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, the leader of the Sudanese government
26:32 currently, has rejected the notion of discussing or dialogue with RCEF.
26:41 What is the motivation for that?
26:43 Because the war is actually destroying everything.
26:46 Now why doesn't he consider dialogue as a way out of this really tragic conflict?
26:55 I guess this assumption is not correct in that sense.
27:02 Because the government of Sudan is engaging in different initiatives.
27:06 I could name very few.
27:10 There is EGAD initiative.
27:13 There is African Union initiative, we're engaging in that process.
27:17 There is Jeddah Forum initiative that's led by Saudi Arabia and US government.
27:24 So we're engaging constructively in different initiatives.
27:27 We're not rejecting any peace dialogue.
27:32 Nobody responsible country can reject any peace initiative.
27:39 Now we stick to outcome of declaration of principles of Jeddah Forum that we have signed,
27:50 the government of Sudan and the militia group RCEF, we have signed together what they call
27:56 declaration of principles.
27:59 Stipulated three facts.
28:01 Number one, vacate from all civil premises and homes of the private citizen.
28:13 Two, to stop any kind of hostilities against the civilians.
28:22 And to rearrange and organize themselves to gather in certain areas in the preparation
28:30 of having a full agreement on cessation of hostilities.
28:36 Unfortunately, this is just like more than six months ago, the RCEF doesn't honor that
28:45 declaration of principles.
28:48 We are ready to go to Jeddah Forum, but under one condition that RCEF should honor and commit
28:57 themselves for the declaration of principles that should vacate from the civil premises,
29:04 government buildings, infrastructure, basic services like water supply, electricity, communications,
29:13 hospitals.
29:14 Hospitals right now is like a military base for offensive attacks against the civilians.
29:22 And even to vacate the homes of the people right now, most of the homes of the people
29:26 are occupied by RCEF, unfortunately.
29:32 We are engaging, we are willing to go back to Jeddah Forum, but we need what we have
29:37 agreed upon to be honored and these people commit to it.
29:41 Unfortunately, they are not doing that.
29:44 So by saying that the chairman of the Sovereign Council is not engaging, is rejecting the
29:53 peace process, which is not true.
29:56 We are open, we are engaging, but we need RCEF to honor its commitment before the international
30:02 community.
30:03 Don't you think that as the side of Sudan, we have to compromise given how RCEF has proven,
30:13 unfortunately, that they are militarily powerful and they have sustained the war this long,
30:20 probably they have a chance of winning it all together?
30:23 This is a good question, definitely.
30:27 Any war in the world ends up at the negotiation table, no doubt about that.
30:33 Whatever compromise it needs to have a peaceful settlement, it should match the aspiration
30:41 of the Sudanese people, the dignity of Sudanese people.
30:45 The way they lost their loved ones, their families, their personal properties, everything
30:56 they lost.
30:58 So compromise should be based on that aspiration and dignity of the Sudanese people.
31:05 But to be honest, RCEF cannot win this war.
31:14 Not because of the military, because this war is against Sudanese people.
31:19 Unless they can kill 40 million Sudanese people, if they would be able to do that, it's unwinnable
31:30 for them.
31:31 So all the military power they have is not that power that they own.
31:41 All these mercenaries have been funded by foreign regional actors, all this political
31:46 support, ammunition, military supply, so they are not powerful by themselves, but as agents
31:52 of other external power that are using them for this.
31:56 More than that, they don't have political cause.
32:00 No war can continue forever without a political cause.
32:02 What is the political cause of RCEF?
32:05 It just take over power, to kill all the Sudanese people and raping women and destroying properties
32:12 and damaging the country.
32:14 What is the political cause?
32:15 Theoretically, when you are using violence, when you are using military power, without
32:21 a political cause cannot continue.
32:24 For that, they are losing this ground.
32:25 They are losing the support of the Sudanese people.
32:28 They don't have political cause to fight for.
32:30 There is no military dictatorial.
32:32 They don't have any military, they don't have any political manifesto for this, just slogans
32:39 about Sudanese people.
32:40 So there is no justification, whether politically or militarily, to win this war at all.
32:48 But we are ready for peace negotiation, but we would like them to commit themselves and
32:55 honor what they have agreed upon before Sudanese people, everybody would like to go back to
33:02 their homes, but is occupied by RCEF.
33:06 They would like basic service to be resumed and come back to their public life, but all
33:12 these facilities occupied by RCEF, they cannot feel safe.
33:17 We have 3,000 Sudanese people here.
33:19 They are coming to Rwanda because they feel safe here, because they feel there is a welcoming
33:24 country here, that they feel at home here.
33:29 We'd like to feel the same back in Sudan.
33:33 But Ambassador, when you say that RCEF cannot win this war, isn't that an understatement?
33:44 Because I'm not exaggerating.
33:45 Let me give you the fact.
33:48 We have seen how they've been fighting already, and they seem to be getting stronger.
33:54 Of course, you tell us, you inform us about the updates on the war.
33:58 They are already bigger army and financially backed militia.
34:03 Why don't you think that they have a chance?
34:07 For one simple political reason.
34:12 They don't have the mind and the heart of Sudanese people.
34:17 They're occupying land, but this is a miserable place that they are controlling right now.
34:22 They set an example.
34:24 They're controlling right now four states in Darfur.
34:26 It's still raving.
34:28 It's still chaos.
34:30 There is no civil administration.
34:32 There is no food supply.
34:33 There is no medical facilities.
34:34 There is no school.
34:36 There is nothing.
34:37 They're setting example by themselves, just using military power to occupy some land.
34:44 What is the political cause for it?
34:47 They're losing the heart and minds of Sudanese people.
34:52 If you control the area, whom you are going to govern, the Sudanese people, they're not
34:57 supporting you.
34:59 What is the political cause you are fighting for?
35:03 So this is a real justification that they cannot win.
35:05 They might occupy some pockets here and there, but they cannot win the war.
35:11 This is a political dimension of it.
35:15 Military power cannot win the war unless you have a political will, unless you have
35:22 a constituency that's supporting you, unless you win the heart and mind.
35:28 They are not fighting in a foreign country.
35:30 They're fighting their own people, their own citizens.
35:34 They're giving example of looting, killing, raping women.
35:39 This has not happened in our history.
35:42 For almost 70 years of independence, we have not seen this at all.
35:47 If there is political cause, we are fighting against this.
35:50 And even they are fighting against the army.
35:52 I couldn't understand, but they are fighting their own citizens.
35:56 So whatever military power they have, they will never win this war because they lose
36:05 and they have already lost the support and mind and heart of Sudanese people.
36:11 But on the international scene, we've seen Mohamed Ndagaro getting a really big welcome
36:19 by so many countries in recent months.
36:22 He's been traveling around the region, visiting countries, meeting the presidents.
36:29 If he's that weak, why is he welcomed by other countries?
36:38 I know that you and the audience know how the international politics works.
36:44 Just yesterday, the U.S. government declared sanction against two of the RSF military leaders.
36:56 On the 1st of May, there was a hearing at the Congress, and the special envoy, U.S.
37:04 special envoy on Sudan, had given testimony at this hearing for the Congress.
37:13 It was very clear condemnation about this, of violence of RSF.
37:21 One week ago, Human Rights Watch fully documented a very lengthy report, all the atrocities
37:29 that's committed by the RSF.
37:33 I can name tens of reports from all international media and with the government that has condemned
37:40 RSF over there.
37:44 All the diplomatic tours that were conducted by HMET was PR companies, to be honest.
37:54 This regional power that funded his political campaign, they have public relations companies
38:00 that are trying to brighten his image over there.
38:05 I tell, I ask you one question.
38:07 What is the result and outcome of his diplomatic tour in Africa?
38:10 That because there is some countries in the region trying to offer him public relations
38:15 and connection with some regional leaders, we know that, but what is the outcome of that?
38:20 It is very clear condemnation everywhere, and every day he doesn't have any legitimacy.
38:26 I ask one question.
38:33 Does any militia leaders in Africa would be able to tour African countries and met by
38:35 leaders?
38:37 Think about the leader of Al-Shabaab in Somalia or Boko Haram in Nigeria.
38:45 Would any militia leader would tour these countries and be received at the red carpet
38:51 with president?
38:56 Who will accept that in Africa?
38:57 It's just Sudan, an exceptional case that a military rebel leader has a welcoming reception
39:06 in different countries.
39:07 If Sudan does the same, when we open for military oppositions in African countries, it will
39:13 be a problem.
39:14 So why African leaders do that?
39:16 We know that some African leaders would like to listen, would like to understand, would
39:21 like to comprehend, and they give him back advice not to do so.
39:25 Please go back to your country and make peace with the people over there.
39:30 To be honest, this is the story.
39:38 We've had the reports of a genocide committed by RACF, which has been also widely covered
39:47 across the world.
40:02 It is well documented that at the UN level that RACF killed 15,000 in one town, in West
40:13 Darfur, against one ethnic group, Masalit, it's African tribes, one of the indigenous
40:20 tribes in Darfur, killed with motivation of hatred, ethnic cleansing, and demographic
40:29 change.
40:30 It's well documented.
40:33 It has no need to provide more argument, but there is material evidence.
40:40 There's mass graves over there, and there is some horrific scenes when they killed the
40:48 governor of West Darfur.
40:53 They did not even just kill him and bury him with human dignity.
41:01 They smashed his bones with a car, and women were singing over there.
41:12 What kind of hatred is this?
41:13 What can you describe this?
41:15 This is a genocide, definitely, and they will be held accountable.
41:20 I guess the international community, the responsibility of the international community right now,
41:25 they said before, not in our watch, cannot happen again.
41:29 Right now it's happening in Darfur.
41:31 Why the international community is keeping silent over there?
41:35 Definitely there is international mechanism should be applied sooner or later for accountability,
41:41 for responsibility, for the perpetrators that committed these crimes against Sudanese people,
41:47 and against women, and citizens of Sudan.
41:55 What do you think that the international community, especially African Union, what role do you
42:03 think they can play to mitigate this conflict, if possible?
42:09 Do you think they have power, actually, African Union has power, to resolve or help to resolve
42:16 the conflict?
42:18 One of the main principles of the African Union is to solve African problem by the Africans
42:24 themselves.
42:27 And this is an African problem, should be solved by African.
42:33 Unfortunately the way that the African Union is dealing with the conflict in Sudan, they
42:43 can do more.
42:45 They can do more.
42:47 They have leverage.
42:48 They have connection.
42:49 They have an appeal to the international community.
42:54 Even the African leaders themselves can help doing that.
43:02 But unfortunately they fall short to address adequately the problem of Sudan.
43:08 Right now African Union is engaged.
43:10 We have high panel prominent persons, led by Bin Shambas.
43:17 Right now they are dealing with that in Sudan.
43:20 We respect the African Union leadership right now.
43:23 But African, they can do more to solve this.
43:28 They have connection.
43:29 They have leverage.
43:31 And international community will listen to them.
43:35 To be honest, we have seen how active the African Union, when some problems happen in
43:43 different parts of the continent, they did good job before when it comes to Sudan, unfortunately.
43:53 They fall short of our expectation as Sudanese people to solve this.
43:58 Don't you think that the reason they fall short on their expectations, on their role
44:04 on this, on how they can mitigate this issue, is that they don't have the capacity to actually
44:10 contribute to resolve the problem?
44:12 Don't you think that what makes the African Union go slow in the Sudanese issue?
44:22 Maybe but to be honest, to put it in a right political diplomatic format, they are lacking
44:28 political will, not resources, not capacity.
44:36 They have capacity at hand.
44:39 They can have more capacity from other international organization if they have the political will,
44:46 if they could lead properly to end this, definitely.
44:54 They can seek help over there.
44:57 But there is some kind of blaring vision how to address this problem.
45:06 Still, we trust and we have confidence that African Union, if they could do it right,
45:15 they can contribute to the peace and stability in Sudan.
45:19 But unfortunately, Sudan, they have frozen our membership since 2022.
45:31 Without Sudan having back its membership to get engaged actively and constructively
45:39 engage in this process, then African Union wouldn't have the right connection to do anything
45:45 positive in Sudan.
45:47 First, let the African Union defreeze and bring back our membership to be a full member
45:54 of the African Union to solve this problem together.
45:58 Now let's now focus on particular countries, especially Rwanda in which you are the ambassador
46:04 of Sudan here.
46:07 Has Rwanda tried to play any role in resolving the conflict in Sudan?
46:14 Thank you for that question.
46:16 We have very strong relation with Rwanda.
46:22 Long time ago, Sudanese people were recognized the contribution of Rwanda during our crisis
46:32 in Darfur 2003 because it was one of the first countries that provided peacekeepers to Darfur
46:39 that helped to sustain and bring stability to that region.
46:45 So Rwanda was part of our peace story in Darfur and they left very good impression, very good
46:55 reputation over there.
46:59 And our political relation on bilateral basis continues.
47:03 At that time, there was exchange of high-level visits and we have signed different memorandum
47:10 of understanding.
47:11 We have exchange of a lot of political views about the stability of the region, how the
47:18 African Union could help the cause of the African people, and we appreciate the leadership
47:24 of the ex-president Paul Kagame at the African Union issues, specifically the reformation
47:32 that he himself led before.
47:39 And he set an example of how nation building can take place after conflict and genocide
47:47 in Africa.
47:48 So Rwanda is a bright example of nation building and all this.
47:59 Definitely our vice president had paid a visit to Rwanda two months ago and he was honored
48:08 to meet his excellency, President Paul Kagame, and they exchanged very transparent and constructive
48:14 views.
48:15 Definitely we have honor to have the wisdom and guidance of the excellency that peace
48:24 at last will prevail in my country.
48:27 And one of the main advices that Sudanese people should work together to bring peace
48:32 to their country rather than to depend on any foreign kind of solution from outside.
48:43 We still depend on that political promise.
48:46 We still depend on real friends like Rwanda and his excellency, President Paul Kagame,
48:53 to bring this wisdom, to bring this guidance for peace in Sudan.
48:59 So we are hopeful this will contribute positively to our peace process and to stop this war
49:07 and to stop the bloodshed of the Sudanese people at home.
49:14 Just recently we've seen that you've organized a meeting between Sudanese business, very
49:21 resilient people, and Rwandan business community.
49:25 So what was the result of that and despite the conflict back home, do you think that
49:31 Sudanese people have a certain interest in Rwandan landscape in terms of business?
49:38 Absolutely.
49:39 I mean, right now we have almost 3,000 Sudanese people.
49:45 We have more than 1,000 students that study in higher education in Rwanda.
49:55 And we have families that also settled here.
49:59 Sudanese are coming here not as refugees, but they're real contributors to the economy,
50:05 to the social life here.
50:10 Most of them are middle class and middle income people with proficiencies.
50:16 They're coming here.
50:19 They're trying to find their ways for investment.
50:22 Mainly we have business community that's investing in construction, in food, farming, services,
50:33 import and export, and farming poultry.
50:38 All that they're really engaging.
50:41 And there's some capital that is moving from Sudan and other countries to invest in Rwanda
50:49 based on the good policies of investment that is here, the solid system that you have here
50:57 for attracting more investors from the friendly environment.
51:04 And they're not coming alone bringing their capital, some money.
51:07 They're bringing their families with them.
51:09 And this is also a signal that they're really comfortable and they would like to live with
51:17 their families here.
51:19 So right now the two communities are engaging, the banking system, the joint venture projects.
51:29 And this event that took place in my residence was a clear indicator and manifestation that
51:36 there is real interest between Sudanese private community and the Rwandan private sector to
51:46 work together for a joint venture projects.
51:50 And it is very promising and I'm hopeful that definitely they will achieve their goals together
51:58 in this field.
51:59 As we conclude this really insightful interview, we'd like to ask you as the ambassador of
52:05 Sudan in Rwanda, what are your main ambitions?
52:10 What do you want to achieve in your time here in Rwanda?
52:14 Really an ambition of any representative in Rwanda is to strengthen this bond of relation
52:23 on all fields, political, economic, cultural, and mainly in terms of education and bringing
52:31 people together, main fences, bringing these people together and to open opportunities
52:40 for our people, our private sector investors to invest together.
52:46 Would like to have more students to come here for studying.
52:52 Would like to have more agreements with Rwanda in different fields.
52:59 We have one focus right now.
53:02 When this war is over, you have very rich experience in nation building and post genocide.
53:10 Rwanda right now is a model in terms of leadership, in terms of nation building, in terms of social
53:15 reconciliation, in terms of institution building.
53:20 Definitely this very rich experience we needed in Sudan.
53:24 How can we rebuild our country after crisis, after war, after genocide?
53:30 Really Rwanda is a good model for us.
53:35 Definitely we'll engage to transfer this knowledge and to get wisdom and guidance of
53:42 His Excellency President Paul Kagame.
53:44 I need the connection of our people together to be more stronger and stronger.
53:52 This was the interview with the Ambassador of Sudan in Rwanda, His Excellency Kareem
53:58 Moussa Adhafara Moussa, whom we've had a very great and a very insightful interview.
54:03 Thank you for watching.
54:05 Stay tuned for more.
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