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00:00Hello. A group of more than 50 journalists from 17 different media
00:04have come together in a project called Forbidden Stories.
00:09They have started publishing a series of articles
00:12that demonize Rwanda and its leadership.
00:15This project attracts the attention of some European media
00:19and opponents of the Rwandan government.
00:23It should be noted that this project was launched
00:26while Rwanda was preparing for the elections
00:30that will take place in July this year.
00:33There has been a lot of discussion about this project.
00:37The Rwandan government has published a statement
00:40indicating that it is used to such trouble during the election period,
00:45that some people are ready to disrupt the elections
00:49by using all possible means, including the media.
00:55In our meeting today, we will explore what is hidden behind these articles,
01:01this project, the objectives and the impact it could have on Rwanda,
01:06even if the authorities have already said that the plan will be disrupted, as usual.
01:11I am with Titega Tabazi to discuss this.
01:14Hello, Mr. Titega.
01:15Hello, Reverie.
01:16The first question is to know.
01:19We have seen this group of 50 journalists around the plan.
01:25What do you think could be the impact?
01:28First of all, I think it is not new.
01:31I don't think there is anything that is up-to-date.
01:37We recycle old recipes.
01:41We take the same people.
01:43Often, Rwandan people are compromised,
01:48either for genocide against the Tutsis,
01:52or for what has to happen,
01:55because they are not dissidents of the FPR,
01:58but they want to leave with justice,
02:01and they are rather legally defective.
02:04So, taking back this beautiful world,
02:09Belgium is really the place where you find the supporters of Rousseff Sabadina,
02:18Djambo Aisbel, the heirs of the genociders,
02:23and where Ruda Singwa comes to wander.
02:28There are places like this, much more in Flanders,
02:34that are hostile to the post-genocide Rwandan government against the Tutsis,
02:41but this is linked to their history.
02:45Obviously, it is a sad and painful history with Rwanda.
02:50They supported the Habsarimane government.
02:53They carried it on their shoulders.
02:56They fed the genocidal ideology that Mehoutou called on at the time.
03:03So, as the Rwandan government communicator says,
03:07nothing new under the sun.
03:09This is not the first time.
03:11They fought Gachacha.
03:13They explained to us a million times that we were unable to recover this country,
03:20that we needed experts, their experts,
03:24who would show us how to do it.
03:27We had refused.
03:29So, this is how we collect our feelings.
03:32And it is true, it is a wind that will pass,
03:35and that will blow, as Chirac would say.
03:38Today, what should we remember about the novelty of this campaign?
03:44New faces or new figures in it,
03:49to allow them to bring something new?
03:55What is new is this mobilization of many media in several countries.
04:02What does that mean?
04:04It means that there is a nucleus in Belgium that has conceived the macabre plan
04:10and that has abused the trust of others.
04:16Look at this excerpt where Belgian journalists go to South Africa.
04:25Look at what is said about this son of a geese, I believe,
04:31who died in South Africa.
04:33And this other Belgian who had an accident.
04:39Everything suggests that this is part of the daily life in South Africa.
04:46Because they are not the first.
04:49Because there is a very high level of crime in this country.
04:53Because I believe that the son of a geese goes to South Africa for the first time.
04:58And so we see that it is probably someone who has money on him,
05:03and we try to get his money.
05:05Curiously, the son of a geese is not mentioned in these stories.
05:12He had no problems with Rwanda.
05:16He did not have any.
05:18This is what is surprising. How did he come back in this story?
05:22He must have left for Belgium when he was still young.
05:26It is said that he was 28 years old.
05:28He had just finished his law studies and was working for a company.
05:33And so he goes to South Africa, probably on a work mission.
05:39And he ends up in a bad place, at a bad time, and he loses his life.
05:48But the son of a geese has never been mentioned among the people we have spoken about,
05:55who had trouble leaving with Rwanda.
05:58But the fact that he is a Belgian citizen of Rwandan origin,
06:03his death must be attributed to the Rwandan government.
06:09The question now is whether it is in the interest of Belgium to attack Rwanda like this,
06:14to tax everyone in Rwanda. What is hidden behind this?
06:19We can say a lot.
06:23First of all, since July 1994, Rwanda has refused to be dictated its conduct.
06:34A Belgian expert, who is in the documentary, predicted that Rwanda would no longer exist in 2010.
06:46Yes, he said that. He wrote in English that there would be a collapse of the Rwandan government.
06:54In 2010, I think the Rwandan economic government was at four points.
07:01This is what was said about Rwanda.
07:06I was saying that Rwanda refuses to be dictated its conduct.
07:11Rwanda diversifies its partnerships.
07:15Rwanda rises from a collective resilience.
07:23And all those who are telling us that we will not succeed,
07:28because they have a bad conscience,
07:31because they don't know what they have done before, during and after the genocide,
07:36today it is as if they are making us pay for the efforts we have made to stand up.
07:45Today, Rwanda has a good reputation.
07:50And this is not advertising.
07:53To say that Rwanda is the hub of education,
07:56there are a dozen American universities here,
07:59that Rwanda is the hub of international conferences,
08:01that we rush to come to these meetings in Kigali,
08:04that Rwandan tourism is doing well,
08:08that the ordinary citizen of Rwanda,
08:13the one who has the lowest income,
08:16is treated at the hospital thanks to friendship,
08:20that children go to school,
08:22and all of them, and they eat and drink milk at school,
08:26that Rwanda no longer discriminates.
08:28I think that this must bother the Belgians a lot,
08:30who were happy to have their Habsarimana,
08:33who were making exclusions,
08:35that the Belgians are eating the nose between Walloon and Flemish.
08:40To see that Rwanda again refuses to discriminate,
08:44they are confused,
08:46and they must blame us,
08:48they must throw anathems on Rwanda.
08:51That we have a charismatic and visionary leader,
08:55that becomes a problem for the Belgians,
08:57but not for the Rwandans.
08:59We are happy with that.
09:01That's where we are.
09:03And so, there are these interests,
09:06that can be said to be inverted,
09:09because it is an inversion of values,
09:11that Belgium is showing us.
09:13And so, they mobilized a friendly press,
09:18because there is solidarity in the profession,
09:21and I bet that the others were abused,
09:24because they were given the honeyed speech,
09:27of human rights,
09:29of the protection of the profession of a journalist.
09:31Can you imagine that?
09:33Rwanda persecutes journalists.
09:36And so, they embarked on this misadventure.
09:40That's what I can say.
09:43If we try to decrypt the title,
09:46Forbidden Stories,
09:48shouldn't we understand that
09:52it is a way to designate Rwanda
09:55as a country hostile to expression?
09:59That's the goal.
10:01To convince,
10:03we have to say that the profession of a journalist
10:06is bad in Rwanda.
10:08When you look at the press conference
10:11of the President of the Republic,
10:13how many international media
10:15are based in Kigali?
10:18How many radio stations in Rwanda?
10:20How many press conferences?
10:22I don't know.
10:24For them, I think,
10:26it's not being submissive
10:29to their goodwill.
10:32That's the sin of Rwanda.
10:34It's not freedom of expression.
10:36No.
10:38And they come back in a loop.
10:40I said it in the introduction.
10:42Every time there is a commemoration,
10:45in the 15 days before,
10:49we know that something is going to happen
10:52in Belgium and against Rwanda.
10:54Press articles,
10:56biased reports,
10:58testimonies of compromised people.
11:01That's it.
11:03We can't say that we got used to it,
11:06but it's starting to get annoying.
11:08That's the question that was going to follow,
11:10to know why today,
11:12the journalists said that
11:14they had just spent 18 months preparing
11:16this campaign.
11:18Why today?
11:20What was the opportunity for the publication?
11:22Why today?
11:24Because, first of all,
11:26they are orphans of all the blows
11:28they tried to put on Rwanda's back.
11:32I remember 2007, 2008, 2009,
11:372010 during the presidential elections.
11:41It was what we call a massacre.
11:44Because they had seized the opportunity
11:47that the French judge Jean-Louis Bruguère
11:51had given them.
11:53And so,
11:55Judge Bruguère,
11:57who published his famous report,
12:00he didn't do it on the ground.
12:02He made an instruction in charge.
12:05It doesn't exist in law.
12:07And so, that's it.
12:09But in Belgium,
12:11it's as if it was a celebration.
12:14We were celebrating in Kagame.
12:16It's over for Kagame and his regime.
12:18Under Bruguère's decision.
12:20Bruguère, who launched
12:22nine arrest warrants
12:24against Rwandan superiors.
12:26And so,
12:28on the other hand,
12:30it was a celebration.
12:32Universities were relaying themselves
12:34on TV.
12:36We saw articles, we saw reports
12:38saying, Rwanda,
12:40in 2010, you give up your seat
12:42to our chickens.
12:44When the report
12:46of Judge Trevithick came out,
12:48which was confirmed
12:50by the French Court of Cassation,
12:52it meant that we were discussing
12:54radio silence
12:56on the Belgian side.
12:58And so, that's how they are.
13:00They are biased.
13:02They are politically motivated.
13:04They are always moved by this ideology,
13:06by Mehoutou.
13:10And that's the bottom of the problem.
13:12But yet,
13:14the Prime Minister
13:16of the celebration,
13:18on the occasion of 30 years
13:20of genocide against Rwanda,
13:22was there
13:24in order to
13:26apologize
13:28to Rwanda
13:30for not doing anything
13:32during the genocide.
13:34Guy Verhofstadt came to Rwanda.
13:36He was Prime Minister.
13:38He apologized
13:40on behalf of his country and his people.
13:42But let's say that this is
13:44on a political level,
13:46on a diplomatic level,
13:48because he recognized
13:50that we had abandoned
13:52Rwandan chickens in 1994.
13:54It's not in the midst of the genocide
13:56that you ask the troops of the United Nations
13:58to go to the station,
14:00to close their doors,
14:02to go back to their country.
14:04They are being brought in,
14:06they are being massacred.
14:08There is the Indian captain
14:10of Senegal who refused
14:12to submit himself
14:14to these instructions.
14:16He stayed, he saved people.
14:18But who gave his life?
14:20There are Belgian blue helmets
14:22who fell
14:24and were killed by the Abzarimane guard.
14:26At least a dozen.
14:28Yes, and so,
14:30in this climate,
14:32rather than reinforcing
14:34the troops of the United Nations
14:36and the genocide,
14:38we pack our bags and leave.
14:40And so,
14:42it's by noticing this
14:44that the Belgian Prime Minister
14:46comes to Rwanda
14:48to apologize.
14:50It was the minimum.
14:52President Clinton did it.
14:54The Secretary General of the United Nations,
14:56Kofi Annan, came.
14:58He did it.
15:00We saw at the end
15:02of the work of the
15:04Commission du Clerc,
15:06led by President Macron.
15:08President Macron, here,
15:10made a memorable, historic speech.
15:12And so, Belgium,
15:14political Belgium,
15:16could not escape this.
15:18But it does not prevent
15:20you from having,
15:22in certain areas,
15:24supported genociders,
15:26pariahs, negationists,
15:28writers,
15:30so-called
15:32university students,
15:34who are biased, who do militantism.
15:36We find all this in Belgium.
15:38Yes, the 50 journalists
15:40claim to have a whole package
15:42that they will broadcast
15:44during this campaign.
15:46Don't you think
15:48it will have an impact
15:50on the electoral process in Rwanda?
15:52On the electoral process,
15:54they have to do it
15:5610 times more, and I wish them
15:58a lot of courage.
16:00No.
16:02In the public opinion, yes.
16:04There are many people who are not interested
16:06in what is happening in Rwanda.
16:08And so, if you look at a piece of paper,
16:10if you look at a report,
16:12you will say, ah, that's Rwanda?
16:14But look carefully.
16:16We want to break
16:18the image of Rwanda on the outside.
16:20We were accused
16:22of signing with
16:24Arsenal.
16:26In the end, we realize,
16:28it's much more profitable
16:30for Rwanda.
16:32We go to PSG.
16:34Catastrophe.
16:36No, no, no.
16:38Why?
16:40It's profitable for Rwanda.
16:42The fact that Rwanda
16:44thinks,
16:46the fact that the leadership
16:48of Rwanda says,
16:50we know our problems.
16:52We want to bring
16:54our solutions.
16:56The container who wants
16:58to help us,
17:00or assist us,
17:02goes into the process
17:04that we have defined.
17:06It's the complete opposite
17:08of what was done before 1994.
17:10The recipes came to us
17:12from Brussels, Paris,
17:14and Geneseo.
17:16This paradigm shift
17:18is unforgivable
17:20to the Rwandan leadership.
17:22The fund is there.
17:24After the elections,
17:28I don't see where
17:30they can go.
17:32They try to
17:34intoxicate Rwandans.
17:36Rwandans are mature enough
17:38today.
17:40Rwandans have confidence
17:42in their leadership
17:44because they have access
17:46to services.
17:48Because when they are on the road,
17:50they don't take dust anymore.
17:52The children go to school
17:54because there is no more
17:56discrimination.
17:58Citizenship is lived
18:00on a daily basis.
18:02I think some are not very happy about this.
18:06The Rwandan government
18:08has already expressed itself
18:10through a press release.
18:12What do you think about the behavior
18:14that the Rwandan government
18:16must adopt in the face of this threat?
18:18I think we must
18:20take the threat seriously.
18:22Because they are great media.
18:24There is the world
18:26that gives authority
18:28in France.
18:30There is RTBF.
18:32There are so many others.
18:36There is a consortium
18:38that they have tried
18:40to form.
18:42We must take this seriously.
18:44Rwanda
18:46must exercise a right of response
18:48when it considers it necessary.
18:50From the moment
18:52that the information
18:54that is given is biased,
18:56there are a lot of shortcuts,
18:58there are amalgams.
19:00Bringing back
19:02Rudasingwa
19:04as a witness,
19:06as an informant,
19:08as someone who will analyze
19:10the situation in Rwanda in 2024,
19:12I bet
19:14that it is a waste of time,
19:16energy and resources.
19:18Rwanda will not be the loser.
19:20When you look at the face of this gentleman,
19:22you say,
19:24he still has something to say.
19:26He has something to teach you.
19:28Go consume what he tells you.
19:32In such cases,
19:34Rwanda must react.
19:36It will be
19:38something done
19:40to try to balance
19:42the information.
19:44I think
19:46that
19:48the Rwandan government
19:50will not be indifferent
19:52to these premeditated
19:54and rather malicious attacks.
19:56The last question
19:58is related
20:00to the previous question.
20:02Shouldn't we expect
20:04a bad surprise
20:06in relation to the publications?
20:08They announce
20:10that they will broadcast in series.
20:12Shouldn't we expect
20:14a bad surprise
20:16in relation to the publications?
20:22A bad surprise?
20:24When it comes
20:26from people we know
20:30who are malicious,
20:32who are of bad faith,
20:36there will be
20:38what we call
20:40stinking balls.
20:42Will it surprise you?
20:44Probably.
20:46Will it delay you?
20:48Maybe not.
20:50Will you react?
20:52Or will you try to go your way?
20:54They will
20:56enlarge
20:58what they will call
21:00scoops.
21:02There will be nothing new.
21:04When we look at
21:06the faces
21:08presented to us,
21:10among them
21:12there is a Belgian journalist
21:14who should be very careful
21:16because he lives
21:18with a woman who has
21:20usurped his identity.
21:22If one day
21:24the Rwandan government
21:26gets angry and asks
21:28Titi Gatabazi for his opinion,
21:30I will tell him to file a complaint
21:32against this woman because we know
21:34her identity here.
21:36She lied to the Belgian authorities
21:38to get
21:40Belgian papers.
21:42She lied
21:44to the Belgian services.
21:46At some point,
21:48by running after Rwanda,
21:50by being a militant,
21:52we forget that we are
21:54dragging dirty pots with us.
21:56We need to be careful.
21:58But you are a jurist.
22:00You need to be careful.
22:02I am not a parker.
22:04I am not mandated.
22:06But I could
22:08share information
22:10because
22:12I think this information
22:14has already been treated
22:16by Igihé and other media.
22:18On Twitter,
22:20there are photos that have been published.
22:22There are comments
22:24in Serbian.
22:26I saw how embarrassed
22:28the gentleman was
22:30to see
22:32him walking around
22:34in this identity usurpation
22:36of his wife.
22:38There is more.
22:40She cheated on her path.
22:42She left Mugunga
22:44to marry
22:46this Belgian journalist.
22:48There is material.
22:50And in terms of law,
22:52I think it can hurt her.
22:54Thank you very much,
22:56Mr. Titi, for your analysis.
22:58Thank you also to our
23:00co-hosts.
23:02Thank you.
23:04Goodbye.
23:06See you next time.