Bob Ryan, Jeff Goodman, and Gary Tanguay share stories of time spent with Bill Walton over the years, dating back to his playing days with the Boston Celtics. Their conversation then shifts to the Celtics advancing to the NBA Finals, and a look at how things are shaping out in the West between Dallas and Minnesota.
0:00 - Remembering Bill Walton
2:49 - Impact of Bill Walton
5:24 - Bill Walton's enthusiasm
7:02 - Comparing Bill Walton and Kareem
8:34 - Choosing Bill Walton
13:00 - Bill Walton's career
16:39 - Teammates' stories
18:58 - Sixth Man of the Year
24:49 - Impeccable ball timing
29:39 - Celtics' playoff maturity
33:11 - Celtics' bench scoring concern
35:15 - Tatum and Brown roles
37:11 - Celtics' team identity
39:26 - Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens' success
41:03 - Envy of every coach
48:00 - Celtics vs. Dallas
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0:00 - Remembering Bill Walton
2:49 - Impact of Bill Walton
5:24 - Bill Walton's enthusiasm
7:02 - Comparing Bill Walton and Kareem
8:34 - Choosing Bill Walton
13:00 - Bill Walton's career
16:39 - Teammates' stories
18:58 - Sixth Man of the Year
24:49 - Impeccable ball timing
29:39 - Celtics' playoff maturity
33:11 - Celtics' bench scoring concern
35:15 - Tatum and Brown roles
37:11 - Celtics' team identity
39:26 - Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens' success
41:03 - Envy of every coach
48:00 - Celtics vs. Dallas
Prize Picks! Get in on the excitement with PrizePicks, America’s No. 1 Fantasy Sports App, where you can turn your hoops knowledge into serious cash. Download the app today and use code CLNS for a first deposit match up to $100! Pick more. Pick less. It’s that Easy! Go to https://PrizePicks.com/CLNS
Gametime! Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest Price. Guaranteed. Terms apply. Go to https://gametime.co !
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SportsTranscript
00:00 [VIDEO PLAYBACK]
00:25 - Gentlemen, we are going to talk about the Boston Celtics.
00:27 And we believe they will be taking on the Dallas Mavericks.
00:31 But first, we have to start with the passing of one
00:34 of the all-time great basketball players, personalities,
00:40 deadheads, poet, philosopher, characters, Bill Walton.
00:48 And Bob, I'm going to start with you,
00:50 because I know Jeff has some stories.
00:52 But of the three of us, I think you
00:54 had the most experience of a life well-lived, Bill Walton.
00:58 - Well, this is a personal thing for me.
01:00 And I'm not claiming to be an intimate or a buddy-buddy.
01:03 But we were good friends.
01:06 And I enjoyed his company immensely.
01:08 And he was one of the most interesting people
01:13 I've ever met, before we even get to the basketball.
01:15 And there's plenty to talk about there.
01:17 But he was a man who lived life to its fullest,
01:22 and embraced every day, and lived life to its fullest,
01:25 and lived it on his terms.
01:27 And it was a very complicated life, in terms of--
01:31 he went through a lot of pain, physical pain.
01:36 Everybody knows about his famous lower limb injuries.
01:40 But there was a period of time, about 20-some years ago,
01:43 when his back pain was so bad, his back issue was so bad,
01:47 that he truly considered suicide, which
01:50 he talks about in a book, as Bill--
01:52 he was fully forthcoming about it.
01:55 He got through that period, and resumed his life.
01:58 And really, the last phase of his life,
02:02 he's more known for his broadcasting.
02:04 It is a whole generation that never saw him play, of course,
02:06 that know him as a broadcaster.
02:08 And there was nobody quite like him.
02:11 I used to kid him, Bill, how about talking
02:13 about basketball tonight?
02:15 But that was Bill Walton.
02:19 He touched a lot of lives.
02:21 He had so many fast-- as you mentioned, the Dead--
02:23 the Grateful Dead.
02:24 Surely, their most famous fan ever.
02:26 He was with them at the Pyramids, by the way,
02:28 when they were there.
02:29 And claimed to have been to 1,000 Dead concerts.
02:33 And who knows?
02:36 But anyway, I'm deeply saddened by it.
02:41 And I'm going to miss my communications with Bill Walton.
02:47 Yeah, it actually hit me hard.
02:49 And I worked with him, I don't know,
02:51 probably a handful of times at ESPN.
02:53 Would see him all over the place at games
02:56 and whatnot over the years.
02:58 Again, don't claim to be super close with him,
03:01 but felt super close with him, if that makes sense.
03:04 He made you feel that way.
03:06 He made you feel that way.
03:08 That's a gift.
03:09 I feel like he and Charles Barkley
03:12 are similar in a lot of respects.
03:14 That no matter-- you see them, and people come up to them,
03:18 and they're always smiling.
03:20 They always have time for everybody and anybody.
03:24 No matter how much pain Bill Walton was in--
03:27 and he was in a lot of it over the years--
03:29 he would never let on to it.
03:31 He would always be smiling.
03:32 I remember doing the PK-80 tournament out in Portland,
03:36 Oregon with him a few years back.
03:39 And there were 16 teams.
03:42 And Bill and I were both covering one bracket of it,
03:46 eight teams.
03:47 And we were there for the practices the day before from--
03:52 I don't know, they start at 9 AM,
03:54 and we didn't end until 6 at night.
03:56 And he sat there, and I was like,
03:58 there's no way Bill Walton is going to stay here.
04:01 Because you listen to him broadcast, and you're like,
04:04 he doesn't talk about the players half the time.
04:06 Like, you know, Bob, he's just going on tangents,
04:09 crazy tangents.
04:10 So I'm like, he's going to duck out after--
04:13 he'll go to a practice, and then he'll be gone.
04:15 He literally stayed there all day for eight practices.
04:19 And he loved talking to everybody--
04:21 the players, the coaches, the smile.
04:25 And then the funniest part is-- so I'm doing sideline
04:28 for these games with him.
04:30 And I called Luke up the night before, and I said, hey, Luke,
04:33 I'm going to have some fun with your dad here.
04:35 I'm going to fact check him.
04:37 I'm going to see crazy things that he says.
04:41 I'm going to see if he's making this crap up,
04:44 or he's right about how many lakes are in Montana,
04:47 you know, these crazy things.
04:49 So sure enough-- so Luke's like, yeah, do it.
04:51 Definitely do it.
04:52 So I fact checked three of them.
04:55 And again, it was like, yeah, like how many lakes
04:57 are in Montana, and like, I don't know,
04:59 these crazy, mundane things.
05:03 And sure enough, he was right on three of them.
05:05 Like I fact checked three, he was right on all three of them.
05:09 That was the thing about Bill Walton--
05:11 so smart, so well-read, so well-versed,
05:15 like just could talk to anybody.
05:18 And again, getting back to my original point,
05:21 make you feel so good about yourself.
05:25 He'd come up to you with that big hand and shake your hand.
05:30 Hey, Jeff, Bill Walton.
05:31 And I'd already met him like 10 times.
05:33 I'm like, I know who the hell you are.
05:35 You don't need to introduce yourself.
05:37 He would do that when he saw Danny Ainge.
05:39 He would go up to Danny Ainge and, hey, Danny, Bill Walton.
05:43 And Danny would just sit there and smile and look at him.
05:45 And I don't know, he's going to be missed so much because
05:50 of, again, that enthusiasm he had for life,
05:54 even with everything that he dealt with over his life that
05:58 didn't really go according to plan.
06:00 Including the stuttering.
06:02 And you know, he stuttered until his mid-20s.
06:05 And I got help, apparently, from Marty Glickman,
06:08 the great announcer, the New York announcer, who
06:10 helped him somehow or some way.
06:12 He got in touch with--
06:13 he was put in touch or whatever with Marty.
06:15 And somehow or other, he gave credit to Marty Glickman
06:18 for helping him overcome the stuttering.
06:20 And of course, the great joke that we all had, anybody
06:22 who knew him, was that once he stopped stuttering,
06:25 he had to make up for lost time.
06:27 And he never stopped talking after that.
06:29 You know, he set a record that will never
06:32 be broken for the longest acceptance
06:34 speech at the Hall of Fame in 1993.
06:36 I'll tell you that right now.
06:38 Were you there?
06:39 Were you there?
06:39 Yes.
06:40 Yes.
06:40 I was there in Springfield for that one.
06:42 And he ran through the stop sign and then circled the beaches
06:46 again and ran through the stop sign
06:48 at third base a second time.
06:50 So and we just shrugged.
06:53 Everybody just shrugged.
06:54 That's Bill.
06:55 Only Bill could get away with it the way he did.
06:58 Oh, God.
06:59 He was such a trip.
07:01 Bob, let's break down some basketball here.
07:03 Because there's something--
07:04 Yeah, let's talk basketball.
07:05 I was talking to a friend this morning.
07:07 Let's start with college.
07:10 OK, UCLA.
07:13 At 100%, who's the better player?
07:18 Lew Alcindor, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Bill Walton?
07:21 Well, that's a tough one, of course.
07:23 And I've got--
07:24 Well, break it down for me.
07:25 Well, Bill went through two--
07:27 Bill was 88 and 4.
07:28 I looked it up.
07:29 He was 30 and 0, 30 and 0, 28 and 4.
07:33 Kareem-- I got the numbers.
07:36 It was very similar.
07:37 But Kareem wins the battle of championships, 3 to 2.
07:40 Lew Alcindor that I'm there for.
07:42 Lew Alcindor wins the battle of championships.
07:45 They were not exactly the same player.
07:47 Kareem's-- and Lew/Kareem's great calling card,
07:51 ultimately, when it's all said and done, was the hook shot.
07:54 The shot, most famous single shot in the history of basketball,
07:57 really and truly, is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's and Lew
08:01 Alcindor's hook shot.
08:02 OK.
08:03 Bill is more known for passing, number one.
08:07 Should be.
08:09 Not as well known as he should be for rebounding.
08:11 We're going to get to that.
08:12 I want to talk about that.
08:13 And I think his all-around capacity was--
08:17 if I had to win a game tonight, I've
08:18 said it 100 times, 1,000 times.
08:22 The center of all time that I want
08:25 to win, if we're saving Earth from a battle
08:28 against alien invaders, and we're
08:29 all going to go into servitude for all eternity
08:31 if we lose the game, the basketball game,
08:34 I want Bill Walton as my starting center.
08:36 Because I will run my offense to him.
08:38 I'll run my defense to him.
08:39 I will get every rebound I need.
08:41 I will get team play that--
08:44 do exemplary team play.
08:46 And believe me, that's a tough call.
08:48 But I would take the best of Bill Walton
08:52 over any center who's ever played the game.
08:55 Lew Alcindor, by the way, was 88 and 2.
08:59 88 and 2.
09:01 Yep.
09:02 Thank you.
09:03 Yeah, crazy.
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10:23 Well, I think the passing, that's
10:25 what we were talking about.
10:26 And I said, I just remember Bill being a better
10:28 passer than Kareem.
10:29 That was--
10:30 More than anybody, except now there's only one challenger.
10:33 And we have a challenger now, and that's Jokic.
10:37 Jokic is the first person that deserves
10:39 to be mentioned in the same breath
10:40 as the passing center.
10:42 OK, let's talk about that '77 Trailblazer team,
10:46 led by Dr. Jack Ramsey and his unbelievable leisure suits.
10:51 That team, was that team expected
10:55 to contend that year, Bob?
10:57 No, no.
10:59 And first of all, Bill hadn't yet
11:01 hit his stride as a professional due to the injury factor
11:04 that was always there.
11:05 But that year, and even that year,
11:08 he only played in 60-some games.
11:10 And they found themselves in the second half of the year.
11:14 And it went into playoffs, and they weren't the favorites.
11:17 And West, I think the Lakers were still.
11:20 And Phoenix, by the way, Phoenix still
11:24 had a remnant of the team that had gone to the finals in '76.
11:27 And so they put it together as the season went on.
11:34 The thing about that team is it was so young.
11:37 Four of the five starters were 25 or under,
11:40 including himself, Maurice Lucas, Bobby Gross,
11:42 and Lionel Hollins.
11:44 Fifth starter was Dave Twardzik, who was like 28.
11:47 But they were poised.
11:48 And the next year, after they won-- and by the way,
11:52 the finals, they lost the games one and two,
11:55 and they came back and won the next four to beat the 76ers.
11:57 And Walton had a tremendous sixth game, great numbers
12:01 in the sixth game, 23-20 blocks, the whole package.
12:06 He had a great game, and he was the MVP of the finals.
12:08 The next year, they were even better.
12:10 They acted as championship teams often do.
12:14 They were with a swagger.
12:15 They knew who they were.
12:16 They kicked butt all year.
12:17 They were 50 and 10 when Walton got hurt.
12:21 And then they went 8 and 14 the rest of the regular season
12:26 and got beaten a first round by Seattle in six games.
12:29 And it was over.
12:31 And it never materialized.
12:32 Now, other people got hurt, too.
12:34 It wasn't just Walton.
12:35 But obviously, Walton was the key.
12:36 And the next thing you know, he leaves after the '78, '79
12:39 season to go and become a free agent with the Clippers.
12:42 And that starts that off.
12:44 Anyway, I long believed that that Portland team was
12:47 poised to be a dynasty, to be a mini dynasty,
12:50 to win multiple championships.
12:53 But it didn't happen.
12:55 And it all didn't start.
12:56 The number one reason it didn't happen
12:58 was Bill Walton got hurt.
12:59 But then again, the entire story of his career.
13:01 Here's a guy you know, he missed--
13:03 you guys know this.
13:03 You'll have to understand.
13:05 In the span of the 14 years in which he was a professional,
13:09 he missed three complete seasons.
13:11 Right, oh yeah.
13:12 No, I remember.
13:13 I remember.
13:14 And then his final season was almost--
13:16 he only played 10 games for the Celtics in '86, '87.
13:22 And he bowed out in the playoffs.
13:24 And that was the end of it.
13:26 So he basically missed three and almost four
13:28 full seasons his career.
13:30 So it was an unfulfilled promise as a professional.
13:33 We know that.
13:34 And it was for one reason and one reason only.
13:36 He just couldn't stay healthy.
13:38 Hey, Bob, have you ever been to his house?
13:41 Oh, I have been to his house on multiple occasions.
13:44 How do you explain it to people?
13:45 It's like a--
13:47 I don't know.
13:48 It's the weirdest--
13:49 I've got pictures.
13:50 I sent pictures out to people.
13:51 When I was there in December, I was there in December
13:54 to interview him for the Larry Bird Museum, which by the way,
13:57 will open on Thursday the 30th.
13:59 How was he doing in December?
14:00 Like, I didn't see him at the Final Four this year.
14:02 Obviously, I know he wasn't feeling up to it.
14:05 He was hobbling, but he's always hobbling.
14:09 But he looked great.
14:10 And I've got the pictures to prove it.
14:12 I'll send you guys when we're done with him.
14:15 And he looked terrific.
14:17 I didn't know he was ill.
14:18 I don't know how many people did know he was ill.
14:20 And he didn't-- and he was his usual exuberant, passionate,
14:25 fun--
14:26 first question in the interview, five minute answer.
14:29 Oh, yeah.
14:31 First question.
14:32 And we were looking-- we would have
14:34 been happy within a half hour.
14:35 We got two hours out of him.
14:37 No surprise.
14:38 He loved people.
14:39 He loved people.
14:41 Like, that's the beauty of Bill Walton.
14:43 He treated everybody--
14:46 like, again, who was I?
14:47 I was some young kid, sideline guy.
14:51 And he invites me to his house.
14:53 And still, my favorite photo--
14:55 I posted it the other day when he passed--
14:57 my favorite photo I've ever taken with anybody
15:01 with Bill Walton and his dog Cortez--
15:04 Cortez.
15:05 --in the teepee in his backyard, which his backyard, Gary,
15:10 is like a--
15:11 it's kind of like a jungle.
15:13 I don't know how you describe it.
15:14 But legitimately, I don't know how many acres are back there.
15:18 This thing is unbelievable with, like, the plants and wildlife
15:22 and whatever.
15:23 And then he's got this teepee way back there that--
15:27 I don't know what he was doing.
15:30 Probably smoking weed or something.
15:31 Who knows?
15:33 But man, it was just--
15:35 I don't know, being with that guy, like,
15:37 it was just so much fun.
15:39 And it never felt forced or fake.
15:43 He was so real.
15:45 And that's why I compare him to Barkley.
15:48 They're so real.
15:49 And they don't take themselves too seriously.
15:53 You can have fun with him.
15:54 You can joke around.
15:55 They're going to play around with you.
15:57 And man, he's just going to be missed by so many.
16:00 Like, you just saw it with the outpouring of--
16:05 again, and it wasn't-- it was all people telling, like,
16:08 stories celebrating.
16:10 Like, Bill Walton's passing at 71 is so sad, right?
16:16 It's so sad.
16:17 At 71, he went way too early.
16:20 But I feel like so many people were like,
16:22 this guy lived such a full life.
16:25 We're going to completely celebrate him and talk
16:28 about all these unbelievable stories that everybody had,
16:32 that again, everybody felt like they knew him way
16:34 better than they knew him.
16:36 Yeah, everybody's going to have different aspects of his life
16:38 to explore.
16:39 His teammates will have a bunch of stories.
16:42 The broadcast partner, Dave Pasch,
16:44 he affected Dave Pasch's life.
16:47 And he'll tell you that.
16:48 I saw him in an interview the other day.
16:51 And so many people.
16:54 And there's no question.
16:56 There's nobody quite like him.
16:57 You can say that about a lot of people, nobody.
16:59 But this guy will not be replaced.
17:02 What's the story?
17:02 After they won in '86, wasn't he with Bird?
17:06 Isn't Bird's book-- he passed out
17:09 in the back of a pickup truck at Larry Bird's house?
17:11 I don't know about that one.
17:12 That's something you can't tell me.
17:14 I don't know that one.
17:15 I'll tell you that.
17:16 But--
17:17 He was with Bird.
17:17 He went home with Bird to Indiana to celebrate the title.
17:20 That I remember.
17:22 All right, let's move ahead then.
17:23 We all know he never was able to play for the Clippers.
17:26 He was never healthy.
17:27 So one last shot at another title in '86, Bob,
17:30 when he comes here.
17:32 Just take us through when the Celtics got him, his arrival,
17:36 and why it worked.
17:37 Well, the story, of course, is that Larry was with Red
17:40 and when there was a phone call with Bill,
17:43 and Larry absolutely says to Red, please get this guy.
17:47 We want this guy.
17:48 At that point in his career, he was coming off
17:51 the disappointment of the Clippers.
17:52 He was 34 or so.
17:56 Yeah, 34.
17:58 And people really didn't know exactly what to expect.
18:01 And he comes in.
18:04 The first thing he does, one of the first things he does,
18:07 is go to Robert Parrish's house to reassure the chief
18:11 that he wasn't there to take his job,
18:13 but he was there to be a part of the whole.
18:15 That was number one.
18:16 So he won Chief Parrish over right away.
18:18 And I think that was a very important step,
18:20 but I would tell you so much about Bill
18:22 that he would do that.
18:23 And it was sincere.
18:25 He meant it.
18:25 And he knew exactly who he was at this point in his career
18:29 and what he could contribute.
18:31 And the miracle of it that no one can ever explain
18:37 is he played 80 games.
18:38 He had never played more than 65 games,
18:40 including his MVP season of '77, '78.
18:43 He played 65 games.
18:44 And he never played more, but he played 80 games.
18:47 And the two games he missed had nothing
18:49 to do with his notorious lower limbs,
18:51 had to do with one was a broken nose, the other was sick.
18:54 And he was the sixth man of the year.
18:58 And my argument for why the Celtics of '85, '86
19:02 are the greatest team of all time
19:04 ends with the trump card, the trump card
19:07 being no team ever brought anything like Bill
19:09 Walton off the bench.
19:11 There have been great sixth men.
19:12 John Havlicek started that theory.
19:15 And sixth men usually have a different role.
19:19 He was the only stenter sixth man ever that won the award.
19:25 And he gave the Celtics the greatest one-two center
19:27 punch in the history of the game.
19:29 But he changed games.
19:30 And he and Bird, the collaboration,
19:33 was made in basketball heaven, absolutely,
19:36 and as you knew it would be.
19:37 It was everything that they both hoped it would be.
19:40 When they were on the floor, we used to laugh.
19:42 I'm not making this up.
19:43 Well, Bill would come in the game
19:45 and at the end of the first quarter, beginning
19:47 of second, whenever.
19:48 And we would put quarters up on the press table.
19:52 And how long will it take before they want to give and go?
19:55 And whoever wins the pool.
19:58 And they made an art form out of the simple give and go that
20:03 has never been seen on basketball before or since.
20:05 The timing of it was varied.
20:07 They had tricks.
20:09 And they made-- it was an unstoppable weapon,
20:12 the give and go with those two.
20:14 And primarily because of Walton's passing,
20:17 Walton's timing and the instinct on the passing.
20:20 But then Larry could finish, of course,
20:21 either side of the basket.
20:22 But-- and very seldom did anybody else want to give
20:26 and go it.
20:27 And the guy was up on the other side of the basket.
20:29 But with those two, they did.
20:30 Anyway, it was-- he was the happiest guy ever
20:36 to join the team that I've ever seen.
20:38 And I was so happy to be there.
20:41 And I liked everything about the-- he liked the on court,
20:44 off the court.
20:45 He loved the sociability, the camaraderie.
20:47 And Rick Carlisle was expounding about it the other day.
20:51 He was a member of the so-called Green Team.
20:54 And they practiced every day.
20:55 And then when they scrimmaged that year, it was for real.
20:59 They wanted to win.
21:00 And the Green Team, which was the second team,
21:03 was anchored by Bill.
21:05 And they won their share because of Bill Walton.
21:08 I mean, there's no way of possibility
21:10 that any other circumstance in any other team
21:12 where the first team would be--
21:14 have a struggle-- team as good as the Southern Cross team was
21:17 would have trouble struggling to beat the second team.
21:20 Except that Bill Walton was anchoring the second team.
21:22 So that's how good he was.
21:27 And I think-- did Carlisle also tell a story how Bill got
21:29 him tickets to the Grateful Dead?
21:31 Oh, yeah.
21:31 And Rick had a new girlfriend.
21:35 And he wanted to--
21:35 First date.
21:36 First date, Bob.
21:37 First date.
21:38 And they were in DC at Landover.
21:42 And he asked Bill, could you do something for me?
21:45 And he said, oh, I'll take care of it.
21:47 I'll take care of it.
21:48 Just show up and tell them you're
21:50 Rick Carlisle from the Celtics and Bill Walton sent you.
21:52 And sure enough, it worked.
21:55 And Carlisle goes, we're on stage.
21:56 We're on the stage.
21:57 And it was after we're hanging out with Jerry--
21:59 Yeah, he's hanging out.
22:00 Yeah.
22:01 By the way, Jeff, you made an allusion to his house.
22:04 And you can appreciate it.
22:05 And you can't explain it to anybody.
22:07 I've got plenty of pictures of it.
22:10 His first floor-- it's not like anybody's first floor
22:13 that you'll ever see in any house in America,
22:15 I can tell you that.
22:16 The only conventional room is the kitchen.
22:18 Kitchen looks like anybody's kitchen.
22:20 The rest of it is so laden with memorabilia and stuff
22:25 and things, including legitimate Grateful Dead instruments,
22:31 drum sets, guitars, the real deal, the real deal stuff.
22:37 And there's no other house like it in America.
22:41 Imagine how his wife dealt with that.
22:45 Like, how did she--
22:46 I mean, it was a disaster.
22:47 Like, you walked in there, and you're like, oh my god.
22:50 Like, I don't know how anybody can live in this.
22:53 Stuff everywhere, every room, you know, like,
22:58 things on the walls, like, no empty space.
23:01 There were pictures.
23:02 And you named it Grateful Dead room, an entire room,
23:06 more than even one, I think, but one full room
23:09 devoted to the Grateful Dead.
23:10 Yeah, there is a bedroom.
23:12 Do you think the reason why he and Paris got along so well
23:14 is because of their fondness of the psychotropic herb?
23:18 That is not legal.
23:19 It could be.
23:20 It could be.
23:20 That might have been a little bit of a bonding thing.
23:22 Who knows?
23:22 Oh, yeah, that could be.
23:23 Imagine walking into that hotel room.
23:26 Also, Jeff, did you see the Bob Dylan bedroom
23:30 with the Bob Dylan picture?
23:32 I slept in that room.
23:35 Yes, I slept in the Bob Dylan bedroom.
23:37 I can't believe that you were there in December.
23:40 And again, he didn't let on.
23:42 I can't.
23:42 You had no idea.
23:44 And I was with Bob Noel, who was the guy whose company is
23:49 building the Ivory Bird Museum and organizing it.
23:53 Bob and I were there.
23:54 And he'll tell you, verify, he's stunned.
23:58 When we talked about it, he couldn't believe it
24:01 when he heard because he looked so good.
24:03 He looked terrific.
24:04 It was no remote indication.
24:06 I knew it.
24:06 He wasn't at the Final Four, Bob, I asked somebody.
24:09 And somebody had told me that he wasn't doing well.
24:12 I didn't know it was cancer.
24:14 No, I know.
24:15 And not a poor--
24:16 almost every year, he's got this stool that he sits on.
24:19 And right courtside there.
24:22 And I don't know if he's doing radio.
24:24 He's been doing radio or what for the Final Four.
24:26 But yeah, I'm going to miss him, I think.
24:30 And I'm one of so many that will say that,
24:34 that they're going to miss, again, just seeing him,
24:38 being around him.
24:40 I don't know.
24:41 I just want to--
24:43 I want to talk about one basketball aspect
24:45 because it's unique to him, in my judgment.
24:48 His rebound technique, after a while watching, I said,
24:52 oh my god.
24:53 His timing about when the ball hit the rim
24:57 and came off the rim was so impeccable that he timed it.
25:01 It looked like he was basically flirting with--
25:04 of interference with goaltending because his time--
25:08 and it was like he would sweep the ball off the rim
25:11 as if you were sweeping crumbs off the table.
25:13 Picture this movement of sweeping crumbs
25:17 off the table, which we all do, the ball off the rim.
25:21 And part B, so often, before we even hit the ground,
25:25 he's turning his body and throwing the outlet pass.
25:29 There's never been anybody else doing that in that manner.
25:34 Nobody.
25:35 And--
25:36 You know, it's--
25:38 He never wanted the attention.
25:39 He never wanted to really talk about--
25:41 again, that's the sad part.
25:43 All these kids now, they now understand,
25:47 maybe because of his passing, how good he was.
25:50 But he never told these kids when he was interviewing him,
25:53 you'd have other coaches come up and tell the player,
25:57 the college player, hey, do you know who you're talking to?
26:00 And they're like, yeah, this dude
26:02 who talks about nonsense during the games.
26:05 And they're like, no, no, no.
26:06 This was like as good of a player
26:09 as ever has played this game.
26:11 And they had no idea.
26:12 No idea.
26:13 Because--
26:13 I mean, no.
26:14 Before we put the current rap on it,
26:18 I have to stress how he identified as a Celtic.
26:22 It is almost as if he had never been to Portland.
26:24 And it had nothing to do, by the way--
26:27 it was two things.
26:28 One, he loved the Celtics.
26:29 And grew up-- who was his idol?
26:30 Bill Russell.
26:31 He grew up in La Mesa, California,
26:33 but he wasn't a Laker fan as much
26:35 he was a Bill Russell fan.
26:36 OK.
26:37 Number one.
26:37 Number two, he identified as a Celtic.
26:40 He enjoyed that year.
26:42 It was almost a more important championship to him almost
26:44 than the one in Portland.
26:45 And it had nothing to do with the city, which he loved,
26:48 the teammates whom he loved.
26:50 In fact, they named his son Luke after Maurice Lucas.
26:52 People should understand that.
26:54 Or anything to do-- it's the organization.
26:57 He did not like the organization,
27:00 the way he was treated, the way he was misdiagnosed
27:02 by the doctor.
27:03 And he thought it was a penurious organization.
27:06 He thought they were cheap bastards too.
27:07 And so he had no love lost for Portland.
27:11 He loved Dr. Jack.
27:12 Oh my god.
27:13 No question, and vice versa.
27:15 But he identifies as a Celtic.
27:17 And that was wholly important to him.
27:21 And so this is a major--
27:24 you figure he only had the two years here,
27:26 and the second year was--
27:28 he got-- only Bill got hurt on the exercise bike
27:31 before the season started, and went up KO in the season.
27:34 But that one year was a treasure for all of us.
27:37 It was the happiest professional year of his life.
27:40 And it was a treasure for us to have had him.
27:43 And then any of us who knew him at all,
27:47 these are sad days to contemplate that Bill
27:50 is no longer with us.
27:52 It's game time, people.
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29:37 And now we move on to what's happening today.
29:40 Yeah.
29:41 In the finals.
29:43 So at the time of our recording, Minnesota has stayed alive.
29:51 They stayed alive.
29:51 But for all intents and purposes,
29:53 we believe that Denver's going to-- it's
29:54 going to be a Denver Celtics thing.
29:57 I mean, Dallas.
29:58 Dallas, I meant Dallas.
30:00 Yes, Celtics-Dallas thing.
30:02 Jeff, how do you feel about the way the Celtics are playing?
30:06 I mean, I called Bob the other night during the game
30:10 because I have to call to somebody.
30:11 I called one of you two guys.
30:12 I called both of you guys, but I got to you.
30:15 This Cleveland series and how this--
30:17 like, we bitched and moaned about how the Celtics don't
30:20 close out games.
30:21 And now they're closing out games.
30:23 But I've never seen anything like this.
30:27 They trail, they trail, they play like crap,
30:29 and for two minutes, they put on their best basketball
30:31 and they win.
30:34 Is that the way-- is that just who they are?
30:36 Well, it hasn't been who they've been, right?
30:38 I mean, they've grown up.
30:39 No, but now--
30:40 Is that what you guys were complaining--
30:41 wait, wait, wait.
30:42 You guys have been complaining all year.
30:44 No doubt.
30:45 We close games.
30:46 And what have I told you all year?
30:48 What have I-- I have been the voice--
30:50 I'm very rarely the voice of reason.
30:53 I was the voice of reason all season long when you guys were
30:56 hitting that panic button, hitting that panic button.
31:00 And I said, guys, none of this matters.
31:04 All that matters is in the postseason.
31:06 Now, I guess, obviously, they've got some luck here, right?
31:09 They faced Miami without Jimmy Butler.
31:12 Donovan Mitchell wasn't there for the end of the series.
31:15 Hal Burton wasn't there.
31:16 I get it.
31:17 But like, at the end of the day, it is--
31:19 last I checked, the Lakers won the title a few years ago,
31:23 even though it was in the bubble.
31:24 And nobody's taken it away from them yet, right?
31:27 And I don't think anybody's ever going to take it away from them.
31:29 They want it.
31:30 So who cares who they played?
31:31 At the end of the day, they're going
31:33 to have to play somebody good in the NBA finals
31:35 to win the whole thing.
31:36 Probably a team with two of the top 10 talents,
31:39 maybe two of the top five talents in the NBA
31:41 right now in Luka and Kyrie.
31:44 I just think, again, the biggest thing
31:47 that you see with this Celtics team is maturity.
31:51 Is the fact that you can trust four guys
31:54 to make the right play at the end of the game.
31:57 Even Jalen Brown.
31:58 Yes.
31:59 I never thought.
32:00 I never thought I'd say the fact that Jalen Brown would
32:03 make the right decision.
32:05 But he's making the right decision most of the time.
32:08 We know Derek Wyatt is unbelievable.
32:11 Look at his assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.
32:14 It's insane.
32:15 It's like 6 to 1.
32:16 Drew Holiday, you know he's going
32:18 to make the right decision.
32:19 And I just think those two have rubbed off
32:22 on Tatum and Jalen Brown.
32:24 And this thing, by the way, that everybody's talking about now,
32:29 not everybody, but some people, when Jalen Brown won MVP,
32:32 Jason Tatum didn't look happy.
32:34 Didn't look as happy for him.
32:36 I'm like, first of all, Jason Tatum is not
32:39 the type to jump up and down.
32:41 We see this.
32:41 The only time we've ever seen him do it
32:43 is when he's mad at the officials.
32:45 He's not gregarious.
32:47 That's not how he plays.
32:48 That's not him.
32:49 He was smiling if you look at him in the background.
32:52 He's happy for Jalen Brown.
32:54 He's happy.
32:55 And I think they all are.
32:56 They're in the NBA finals.
32:58 And I think they all understand, well, the two of them
33:01 really, Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, that you know what?
33:04 If they lose another one, none of these individual awards
33:09 or statistics matter.
33:10 Because they're going to get crucified if they
33:13 don't win the NBA title.
33:15 Ultimately, they've got to figure out a way
33:17 to do it together.
33:18 And they have with the help of Drew Holiday and Derek White.
33:21 My only little nitpick at the moment--
33:23 let's just talk back up for a second.
33:25 They've won three close games.
33:27 We grant you that Rick Carlyle took the full blame
33:30 for messing up one of them.
33:32 And it's true.
33:33 They won another one when Brown hit an improbable shot.
33:37 That's true.
33:39 And the third one, there was no advance of butts.
33:41 They won the game legitimately, making big plays.
33:44 All right, fine.
33:45 So I mean, I think they've--
33:46 to me, they've satisfied my desire
33:48 to see them win close games, closeout games.
33:51 I have one little nitpick.
33:52 I'm worried about Hauser.
33:54 I don't know how much longer you can go with no bench scoring.
33:57 And--
33:58 If Porzingis is back, you don't care.
34:00 Yeah, so if Porzingis is back, it doesn't matter.
34:02 But that's all.
34:03 That's a nitpick.
34:04 That's not a big major--
34:06 Well, it was interesting because--
34:06 I'm sure the shot will come around sooner or later.
34:08 Yeah, he really struggled in the big moments.
34:10 One of the reasons that they were so good down
34:13 in the stretch was they had--
34:15 they could count on scoring from both Pritchard and Hauser.
34:19 And the bench was an asset.
34:22 And right now, the disproportionate amount
34:25 of scoring is done by the starting five.
34:27 But you're right.
34:28 Now, we don't know--
34:29 yeah, you're going to get Porzingis back.
34:31 My god, you would hope by the time
34:33 this thing starts on June 6.
34:35 But what will he be?
34:36 I don't know.
34:37 How sharp will he be?
34:39 It's a long layoff.
34:40 I don't know.
34:41 But he'll be welcome back.
34:43 But in general, there's no reason to complain.
34:46 People should be happy.
34:47 They should accept what's going on.
34:48 They should be grateful to have this team.
34:50 And that's that.
34:53 So--
34:54 Well, I think what I take from right now--
34:56 and I'm fully satisfied, too.
34:57 And yes, we will nitpick because we're sports fans.
35:00 And that's what we do.
35:01 We talk about the game.
35:03 But overall, they should win the NBA championship.
35:05 I think if you're a Celtics fan, very satisfied.
35:09 I mean, really.
35:11 But what I take is I think the roles have finally
35:13 been determined between Tatum and Brown.
35:16 I think Brown realized that he's got to be the grit.
35:22 And when I say grit, that takes nothing away from his talent.
35:27 But his post-game interviews, they've had some edge to him.
35:30 The way he's played the game, it's had some edge to him.
35:34 He's made big plays at big moments,
35:35 whether it's scoring, going to the basket.
35:37 I mean, can anybody stop this guy going to the basket?
35:40 I don't know if there's anybody better going to the hoop
35:41 right now than Jalen Brown.
35:43 I mean, forget about it.
35:44 Oh, he's been some--
35:46 What's that?
35:46 And he's been some big blocks, timely blocks.
35:49 Defensively.
35:51 All-round game.
35:52 So if you sit there and you say to me, well,
35:55 who's the star of the Celtics?
35:56 I got to tell you right now, it's a two-headed monster.
35:58 And you know what?
35:59 I'm done.
36:00 And I know that Jalen didn't get the awards, which is too bad
36:04 because he does deserve some recognition.
36:07 And sometimes you look at Tatum's numbers,
36:09 and it's not his fault. But some of the numbers are empty.
36:12 Again, not his fault. But like, Jalen--
36:15 but like, Tatum has kind of stepped back
36:19 and let other people thrive.
36:21 The behind-the-pack pass the other night to Tatum.
36:23 Honestly.
36:24 That was a great play.
36:25 So it's like-- so now some people are bitching
36:27 because Tatum will disappear for a quarter
36:29 while the other guys are scoring.
36:31 I'm like, well, what do you want?
36:33 You know what?
36:34 I mean, my guy--
36:34 That's so bad.
36:35 You know, what do you want?
36:36 You wanted him to be a team guy, and the other guys
36:38 are scoring, and now you're bitching that he's
36:40 not doing it every quarter.
36:42 Minnesota was relying on two guys, one guy specifically,
36:45 and they're down 3-1.
36:47 So it's like--
36:48 So you're absolutely right about the fact
36:50 that what were they bitching about?
36:51 Dribble, dribble, dribble, and he'd take tough shots.
36:54 Now what's he doing?
36:55 Making the right read.
36:57 Right.
36:58 The time, and they're yelling that you're disappearing,
37:00 you're not being aggressive enough.
37:01 Right.
37:02 So like, I mean, the kid can't win.
37:04 So it's like, I think the Celtics finally
37:07 have an identity, and then I'll let you guys respond to this.
37:09 Jeff, I'll start with you.
37:10 They finally have an identity where I think Brown has his
37:13 role, Tatum has his role, because Tatum's never
37:16 going to have that growl that Brown has.
37:20 And the two belong together.
37:23 That's it.
37:23 I'm done trying to say that it's Tatum's team
37:26 or it's Brown's team.
37:27 It belongs to both of them.
37:28 Jeff Gooden.
37:29 You know what the beauty is, too?
37:31 That Jason Tatum attracts so much attention
37:34 in so many double teams that these other guys
37:37 don't have to deal with it.
37:38 Whether it's Jalen Brown, Drew Holiday, Derek White,
37:42 when you put Porzingis back in the court,
37:44 that's kind of the beauty of it.
37:46 And that's the part that I don't think
37:48 you can say apple to apple.
37:50 When people try to say Jalen--
37:52 like, I don't like how people say they're the same player.
37:55 They're not.
37:56 Well, they do the same things.
37:57 No, they don't do the same things at all.
38:00 Jalen Brown is incredible in transition
38:03 and getting downhill.
38:05 Jason Tatum is a guy who makes people better consistently now
38:10 and takes on the double teams so that Jalen Brown doesn't need
38:14 to.
38:15 If Jalen Brown is the number one guy
38:17 and constantly having to deal with double teams,
38:19 we've seen that before.
38:21 We've seen that before where he'll dribble into traffic
38:24 and people will knock the ball away.
38:27 Now he's got to beat one guy most of the time.
38:30 And he can do that.
38:31 That's the beauty, too, guys.
38:33 Remember, when it was Tatum and Jalen Brown,
38:35 I remember talking to people that would play against them,
38:38 other players.
38:38 And they would say, this is an easy team
38:40 to defend when it's just worrying about the two of them.
38:43 Now you've got to worry about Derek White and Drew Holiday
38:47 and when Porzingis gets back on the court.
38:51 That is really difficult. And give Brad Stevens so much
38:55 credit--
38:56 Brad Stevens, the GM--
38:58 Danny Ainge for drafting Tatum and Jalen Brown.
39:03 Moving up to get up.
39:04 Did you see that somebody put out a graphic,
39:07 I think, last night of the other guys drafted in the top three
39:11 when they ended up getting Tatum and Jalen Brown.
39:14 And it was like Ben Simmons, Markel Foltz, Lonzo Ball--
39:19 I forget who the fourth was that was drafted in the top six
39:23 ahead of those guys.
39:24 But Danny Ainge hit it with the two, drafting those two guys.
39:29 And then Brad Stevens hit it with the trades
39:31 of getting Derek White, of getting Drew Holiday,
39:35 and getting Porzingis.
39:37 I mean, they should get like co-exec of the year.
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40:52 - Yeah, I wanna put in a word for the guards.
40:56 I know we've said this before,
40:57 but I've been mainly fascinated by this backcourt right now
41:00 and that it's the smartest combination backcourt
41:03 that I've ever seen.
41:05 And they're so alike,
41:07 but they fit together so perfectly.
41:11 And I'm thinking the envy of every other coach in the league
41:14 saying, "God, I wouldn't mind one of those guys.
41:16 "They got two, that's not fair.
41:18 "It should be one to a customer."
41:20 And they got two of them.
41:21 And it's just,
41:24 what a pleasure it is to watch those guys.
41:27 - Yeah, just, you know,
41:30 Bob and I have talked about this, Jeff,
41:32 when we spent the two of us, you missed the show.
41:34 We were like, we'll nitpick a little bit,
41:36 but we're kind of done complaining.
41:38 (laughs)
41:39 You know, we gotta really be grateful for what we have.
41:41 Okay, let's move on to the matchup now.
41:43 Having said that, all those things,
41:45 you got two veterans right now.
41:48 Bob, I'll start with you on this.
41:49 I mean, Kyrie, when Bob is,
41:53 I mean, when Kyrie wants to play, forget about it.
41:55 And you know, you've got two veterans right now
41:57 with Dallas that are at the top of their game.
42:01 How big of a threat now are they to the Celtics
42:04 if and when they do, and shut out, close out the game?
42:07 - Before I get to that, just to say,
42:09 no team's ever come back from '03 in the NBA.
42:13 Have done it in the NHL on two or three occasions.
42:16 But until it's done, I'm not writing them out.
42:20 And I'm sorry, Minnesota.
42:22 But anyway, Kyrie, interesting.
42:24 Oh yeah, Kyrie's one of those fascinating guys
42:27 on and off the court that we've ever known in the league.
42:29 Absolutely.
42:31 Jeff is referred to him as a top 10,
42:32 possibly even top five talent.
42:35 He is extraordinarily gifted,
42:37 goes to the basket as a size
42:39 as well as anyone I've ever seen with either hand.
42:41 Now, the thing about him is he's a complicated human being,
42:45 not as smart as he thinks he is,
42:46 trying to figure out life
42:48 and trying to figure out who he is, I think, frankly.
42:51 And is figuring it out.
42:54 This is not the same guy that we had.
42:56 This is not the same guy that,
42:57 for reasons that he never disclosed to anybody publicly,
43:00 he left Cleveland and got away from LeBron
43:03 after winning a championship
43:04 and making the biggest, famous shot in the finals history,
43:08 and not history, but in this decade,
43:10 to win the championship.
43:12 And not exactly being a useful guy in New Jersey.
43:17 For some reason, he's evolved into where he,
43:23 whether it's a certain amount of respect he has for Donchik,
43:26 for whatever reason, he is fitting in perfectly.
43:30 He gets it now in a way that he didn't so far.
43:36 He hadn't previously gotten it
43:38 to meld that it with the talent that he's always had.
43:42 He's a scary force right now.
43:44 Now, having said that, he had a bad night in game four.
43:48 He had a very bad night.
43:50 He went six for 18, one for six on threes.
43:55 Okay, he had a bad night.
43:57 Anybody can have a bad night.
43:58 Let's see how, I suspect he'll bounce back well.
44:02 But I gotta give the guy credit.
44:05 It's taken a while.
44:06 He's in his early 30s now,
44:08 but he's got that marriage of talent and know-how
44:13 and willingness to share
44:16 that is making him a real serious threat.
44:18 - I mean, he had five and a half years
44:22 where he was crucified, and rightfully so for most of them.
44:25 - Yeah.
44:26 - Wouldn't guard a chair.
44:29 I mean, honestly, couldn't guard a chair.
44:31 Didn't care about guarding.
44:33 Again, I've always described Kyrie off the court.
44:37 He's moody.
44:38 On his best day, you love him.
44:40 And his teammates were like that.
44:42 On his worst day, they couldn't stand him,
44:45 and they never knew what they were gonna get from him.
44:48 - Right.
44:48 - I feel like now, you know,
44:50 there's some parallels here, guys,
44:52 a little bit in a way to Rondo.
44:56 I think Rondo, a lot of people didn't love playing
44:59 with Rondo early in his career,
45:01 and at the end, players loved him.
45:04 And I feel like maybe Kyrie's gotten that way,
45:06 where like, and again, Rondo always thought
45:09 he was smarter than everybody.
45:10 - Right.
45:11 - Whether it was the coaches, the players, whatever.
45:13 Kyrie's the same way, can kind of be standoffish
45:17 a little bit, can piss some people off with what they say.
45:21 They don't have a lot of tact.
45:23 Well, I think maybe at this point in his career, too,
45:26 Kyrie's embraced the fact that like,
45:28 I know I'm Robin, I'm never gonna be Batman.
45:32 I can't win at all being Batman.
45:34 I don't know, I don't know what it is.
45:38 The other part, guys, here's the other part.
45:40 So Nico Harrison runs the Mavs, okay?
45:44 They hired him a couple of years ago,
45:46 and he was at Nike for years.
45:48 He's known Kyrie since Kyrie was like 16 years old.
45:51 So I wonder if there's some sort of synergy there,
45:55 'cause I think for Kyrie, so much of it is about trust.
45:58 And if he doesn't trust you and he doesn't respect you,
46:02 it's hard, man.
46:03 And I think he respects Nico and he respects Luca.
46:08 How can you not respect Luca?
46:11 I mean, the dude just, I mean,
46:14 he's a once in a lifetime type talent,
46:17 because you look at him and you're like,
46:19 his physical tools, he can't jump off the ground.
46:23 - Oh, yeah.
46:24 - His body looks like he belongs at the YMCA,
46:28 but my God, the stuff he is able to do,
46:32 and the IQ, and I think that's part of it, guys.
46:36 What does Kyrie want, right?
46:38 Somebody that he can be at the level of
46:41 from a basketball IQ standpoint.
46:43 He's finally found that guy that maybe he,
46:46 you know, LeBron was that,
46:47 but he was too young to appreciate it.
46:50 And he wanted to be a guy or the guy.
46:52 I think now he's realized, like,
46:54 he's my equal, maybe even more than that.
46:58 - No, the Donchick is a fascinating,
47:01 he does what he does at his pace
47:03 and nobody gets him, disturbs him.
47:06 And now, but I am a little tired of the warning.
47:11 - Oh, me too.
47:14 Me too.
47:15 - I mean, it's just, come on,
47:17 it seems like it's like every other play.
47:18 I won't say every play, but about every other call,
47:21 he's giving you the, you know, come on, come on, Luca.
47:25 You know?
47:26 - Can we wrap it up?
47:27 Ken and I know you don't want to get ahead of it,
47:30 but Bob, can Dallas win at all?
47:32 - Well, to win it all, they got to beat the Celtics.
47:36 - Well, that's where I'm at here.
47:37 - I know, I'm saying, I know.
47:39 - They need Lively, bad.
47:41 They need a healthy Derek Lively.
47:42 - Yeah.
47:43 Yeah, I want to see the young man get back in.
47:46 I'm happy, by the way, it was only a neck sprain
47:49 because I was worried it could have been neurological,
47:51 you know, and so in that sense, you know, good for him.
47:56 But I mean, I hope he gets back.
47:57 Yeah, they depended on that two-headed rim protecting
48:02 monster and that way I had one half of it in game four.
48:05 I would be really, really shocked
48:09 if the Celtics don't win.
48:11 - You get Luca and Kyrie, you'd be that shocked?
48:15 I mean, those guys are capable of getting, you know,
48:18 30 each every single night.
48:21 And I don't know if I'd be shocked, Bob.
48:25 It depends on forcing, doesn't it?
48:28 - How many of those other guys, you know,
48:30 I don't know, would be in a lot of other rotations.
48:34 I don't know.
48:35 - Yeah.
48:35 - It would be a tribute.
48:36 If they ever were to pull it off,
48:38 it'd be a hell of a tribute to them.
48:39 I'd take my hat, I'd salute them.
48:41 I'd say, okay, you know, I'm fine, but I'm not.
48:44 I find it hard to believe that that will be enough
48:48 to beat the Celtics.
48:48 - Listen, I'll say this too.
48:50 Like, I mean, PJ Washington's been awesome, awesome.
48:55 You know, again, yeah, Gafford is,
48:59 if you have a Gafford/Lively duo down there,
49:04 and I also think, guys, there aren't many guys in the league
49:07 that can match up with Jalen Brown.
49:10 Derek Jones, defensively, can match up with Jalen Brown.
49:14 He can make life difficult for Jalen Brown, no doubt about it.
49:18 - Well, fine.
49:19 And Ananya, I know, look,
49:20 if they will have earned their way there,
49:23 I always say that,
49:25 they will definitely have earned their way there,
49:27 so that makes them worthy at all.
49:30 So, okay.
49:31 - All right, gents, well, we will have certainly more time
49:33 to talk about this.
49:34 Again, we pay tribute to the late, great Bill Walton.
49:38 This was a better place, it was a better league with him.
49:42 All right, for Jeff Goodman, I'm Gary Tang.
49:43 We will talk again next week.
49:45 Right here, brought to you by PrizePix,
49:47 exclusive daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media.
49:50 PrizePix, pick more, pick less.
49:52 It's that easy with PrizePix.
49:54 See you, fellas.
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