Libertarian Vice Presidential nominee Mike Ter Maat joins "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss the goals of the 2024 Libertarian ticket, his political and professional history, what
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NewsTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hi everybody, I'm Brittany Lewis
00:05 with Forbes Breaking News.
00:06 Joining me now is Mike Tremont,
00:07 Vice Presidential Nominee of the Libertarian Party.
00:10 Mike, thank you so much for joining me.
00:12 - Thank you Brittany, it's good to be with you today.
00:15 - It's good to have you.
00:16 We spoke to your running mate Chase Oliver just yesterday,
00:19 so I'm excited to get your perspective.
00:21 But to start off the conversation,
00:23 I thought it would be fun
00:24 if we brought it back to the beginning.
00:27 Why did you decide to jump into politics?
00:30 - Well, I think that the Libertarian Party
00:33 has to play a major role in American politics going forward,
00:36 and I believe that I could affect the process a little bit.
00:39 As you know, we lean very hard
00:41 into my own personal background
00:42 in public policy and public service.
00:45 And I feel very strongly
00:47 that that background brings some credibility
00:50 that is important,
00:51 particularly when pushing the ideas that we do push,
00:55 which are of course some of the most transformative
00:57 in all of politics.
00:59 - So let's talk about those transformative ideas.
01:03 Were you always a Libertarian
01:04 and what specifically drew you to the Libertarian Party?
01:07 - No, like a lot of folks out there,
01:10 I was a Republican several million years ago.
01:13 I was an employee
01:16 of the George Herbert Walker Bush administration.
01:19 This was the president who had famously said,
01:23 when they come to me looking, I'm paraphrasing,
01:25 looking for new taxes,
01:27 I will say, "Read my lips, no new taxes."
01:30 And of course he went back on that pledge
01:32 and did sign up for new taxes,
01:33 which as you might imagine,
01:35 if you're a young, fiscally conservative economist,
01:39 that's a real turning point in your life
01:41 because you realize that politics trumps economics.
01:45 And that was the beginning of the end for me
01:47 leaving the Republican Party.
01:49 - So people know Democrats,
01:51 people know Republicans,
01:53 people have heard the Libertarian Party,
01:56 but are a little less familiar with it.
01:58 So give us that elevator pitch
02:00 on what the Libertarian Party is.
02:03 - Libertarian Party is all about taking control
02:05 of our government so that we can leave you the heck alone.
02:09 The Libertarian Party's philosophy is basically
02:13 the same as what our founding fathers is,
02:16 which is our government is there to protect us,
02:18 to protect our liberty.
02:20 And that's it.
02:22 The government should not have a role
02:24 in regulating our economy
02:25 or regulating your bodily autonomy,
02:28 telling you what you should do
02:30 either in your personal life or in your financial life.
02:33 - Third parties, as you know, often get a bad rap
02:37 that they are the spoilers of the two-party system.
02:40 You vote for a third party,
02:42 essentially critics say you're throwing away your vote,
02:44 you're tipping the scales to get someone else in office.
02:47 What do you say to that spoiler argument?
02:50 - Which is ironic because it's actually in my view,
02:53 the opposite, which is true.
02:56 If you are voting for something other than your values,
02:59 you are wasting your vote.
03:01 And so I would invite Republicans
03:04 who joined the Republican Party like I did,
03:07 believing that was an organization
03:08 that would stand up for free trade, free markets,
03:12 a deregulated environment, fiscal conservatism.
03:15 You know, you and your party
03:16 have gone in two different directions.
03:18 If you're still voting for that,
03:19 you're sending the signal
03:20 that the Republican Party is on the right track.
03:22 And it's not true.
03:25 So stop throwing away your vote,
03:27 vote for some change that actually aligns
03:30 with your personal values.
03:31 And I would say the same thing to folks out there
03:34 that joined the Democratic Party,
03:36 as most of my family did,
03:38 which is to say believing that that's an organization
03:40 that would stand up for your first amendment rights,
03:43 that would stand up for peace,
03:46 that would stand up for some real sense of social liberalism.
03:50 Wow, you know, folks like my family and that party
03:53 have gone in two different directions.
03:55 If you keep voting for the Democratic Party,
03:57 you're sending the signal
03:58 that you believe they're on the right track.
04:00 And it's not true.
04:02 - You mentioned earlier about that moment
04:04 with George H.W. Bush.
04:05 That was kind of a turning point for you
04:08 where you were like, this is not what I support.
04:11 When it comes to the Democratic Party,
04:13 where do you think a similar turning point moment could be?
04:17 - I think for a lot of folks,
04:18 it was the management of the COVID regime,
04:20 the idea, and by the way, Republicans supported it too.
04:24 So I think it's a turning point for everyone
04:26 who pays any attention to politics whatsoever.
04:29 But this idea that your government
04:31 should have the right to close your business,
04:33 to tell you, you know, with whom and where
04:36 you can get together in social situations,
04:39 that you have to wear a mask,
04:41 that you have to have a vaccine or risk losing your job,
04:45 that the government should be in control
04:46 of the development of the vaccine and the science
04:50 and therefore have a stake in what it is
04:53 you're allowed to hear about various treatments
04:56 or about the development or the results of the vaccines.
04:59 I think that this is a turning point for a lot of folks
05:02 who believed many years ago.
05:05 I think most of us wanted to believe a generation ago
05:09 that the federal government was an organization
05:11 that you can trust.
05:12 And I think we are waking up to the idea
05:14 that that's just not the case.
05:16 - The Trump administration was the one in charge
05:19 when COVID first was underway, as you know.
05:22 So do you think A, Republicans botched the COVID response too
05:26 and B, let's say Libertarian was in charge,
05:29 what would be the Libertarian response?
05:31 - Yes, I think the Republican party did botch the response.
05:35 And that's not to say that President Trump
05:37 didn't have some correct instincts about it,
05:41 but ultimately blew the call and supported
05:45 a tremendous amount of government interventionism.
05:47 A Libertarian-minded administration would push
05:52 for a complete separation of science and state.
05:56 There is absolutely no good reason in terms of science
06:00 or economics or even logic,
06:03 why the government should be involved
06:05 in the science behind the development of medical treatments.
06:09 And when it does get involved,
06:12 it biases not only the development of the treatments,
06:15 but what you are eventually gonna hear about them.
06:18 And we can't have it.
06:19 - Chase Oliver is the presidential nominee
06:23 of the Libertarian party.
06:24 He picked you as his running mate.
06:26 So can you talk to us about why you agreed
06:28 to run with him A, and B, what you bring to the ticket,
06:32 what he brings to the ticket?
06:34 - I'm a Libertarian, and I think that's why
06:36 he wanted me to join him.
06:37 There were any number of other good candidates.
06:40 I'm sure they're all, you know, arguably smarter
06:44 and better looking and more charming and more articulate,
06:46 but he's gonna make do with me, and I'm glad that he is.
06:50 I think the idea behind Chase is his center of gravity
06:54 is all about peace.
06:56 He's a long-term peace activist.
06:59 As you may well know, he is the guy that disrupted
07:03 the duopolistic political environment in Georgia
07:06 when he ran for Senate, forcing that runoff.
07:09 This is not Chase's, he is a young man,
07:11 but this is by far not his first rodeo.
07:15 He has a strong experience in disrupting the duopoly.
07:19 That's what I'm all about,
07:20 and I think the Libertarian party is all about.
07:23 We are gonna be running a very, very credible,
07:26 competitively credible campaign.
07:29 And I think that that's something
07:31 that I can personally contribute to the ticket
07:34 is a background in public policy and public service,
07:36 having worked as a police officer for 11 1/2 years,
07:40 having worked as a White House economist,
07:42 having taught economics at three universities,
07:44 having served both as a successful entrepreneur
07:48 and as an advocate in Washington for a decade
07:51 for free markets.
07:52 There's a lot that I can bring in that context.
07:56 - What are some of those top issues facing Americans
07:59 that are on top of mind on the ticket?
08:01 - We gotta stop the government from spending so much money.
08:06 We need to leave Americans with more money in their pockets.
08:11 Every dollar the government spends
08:13 is a dollar that you can't, right?
08:15 They're eventually gonna recoup all of dollars they spend
08:19 by either taxing you or creating inflation,
08:23 which of course is just another form of tax on you,
08:27 or issuing debt, which of course
08:29 is just another future tax on you.
08:31 And so we believe that fundamentally,
08:34 the root cause of a lot of the problem in Washington
08:38 is that the government just spends too much money.
08:40 I believe that we need to cap federal spending altogether
08:43 and then bring down that cap
08:45 so that all programs have to take a haircut
08:48 across the full spectrum of programs.
08:53 Having served as a law enforcement officer myself,
08:56 I spent a lot of time talking about criminal justice reform.
09:00 I believe that we need to end the war on drugs
09:03 to treat drug addiction like the medical problem that it is.
09:06 I think most police officers that you talk to
09:08 would agree with me on this,
09:10 that however you feel about drug use,
09:12 I'm no advocate for drug use,
09:15 but the way that we've been treating it up until now,
09:18 you have to admit is just completely counterproductive.
09:22 - So let's take that last issue first.
09:26 If you think how they're treating drug use right now,
09:28 how America's treating drug use right now is counterproductive,
09:31 how do we flip it and how do we make it
09:33 a more productive policy, more productive conversation?
09:38 - I think that you've got to decriminalize it
09:40 and get the government out of it.
09:42 You've got to invite in private sector solutions,
09:45 and you can only do that by decriminalizing.
09:48 The biggest, there's two huge problems
09:52 with the war on drugs,
09:53 aside from the fact that it doesn't work.
09:56 One of the big problems is that it drives
09:58 all of these transactions underground, right?
10:02 You create a black market that prevents people
10:06 from holding up their hand and saying, "I need help."
10:09 It's absolutely counterproductive.
10:12 It's not just a matter, Brittany, of saying,
10:14 "This is a program that doesn't help us."
10:17 This is a program that creates its own problems
10:21 by driving people's problems underground,
10:23 people who already have a hard time identifying themselves
10:27 as being in trouble and needing help.
10:29 And then on top of that, by creating this black market,
10:33 what you've done is you've invited in people
10:35 to distribute drugs who are, by definition, criminals, right?
10:40 The people who are selling drugs are the people
10:43 who are willing to go against the government.
10:46 I appreciate the fact that everyone wants to make a buck.
10:50 The idea that the government would make it illegal
10:53 to sell these products means you're necessarily
10:56 gonna have them distributed by criminals
10:59 in a very violent setting, and you need no lecture from me
11:03 on how violent our urban areas have become
11:07 because of the drug traffic.
11:09 - So when you say decriminalize drugs,
11:12 are you talking about all drugs?
11:14 Would it just be marijuana? - Yes.
11:15 - Would it be everything?
11:16 So you're saying decriminalize even things like heroin.
11:20 - Absolutely.
11:21 There is nobody out there listening to you
11:23 and listening to me who are gonna say,
11:26 oh, goody, the government's decided to decriminalize.
11:30 I think I'm gonna go start shooting up.
11:32 That just doesn't happen.
11:34 The problem is that we have criminalized a health problem.
11:37 I mean, if I thought it could work,
11:40 sign me up for criminalizing cancer, right?
11:43 It just doesn't work, however.
11:45 And for this reason, we need to get out of it.
11:48 I believe that as a practical matter,
11:49 the way this'll go is we will eventually wrap up
11:52 the decriminalization of marijuana,
11:55 and then Americans will next be ready to bite off
11:59 the idea of decriminalizing drugs
12:01 that are not producing addiction effects,
12:06 and then eventually we'll be able
12:08 to decriminalize everything.
12:10 - How do you get Americans on board?
12:12 Because when you say decriminalize heroin,
12:15 I mean, that sounds like just like that on its face.
12:17 That's a tough sell.
12:18 How do you do it?
12:19 - I don't think it is.
12:22 I think that Americans are ready for the idea
12:24 that we have a heroin problem.
12:27 We have an opiate problem more generally.
12:28 We have a drug problem more generally.
12:30 I think Americans know that the way
12:33 that we've been approaching it to date doesn't work.
12:37 That's the first thing I would tell you.
12:39 The second thing that I would tell you
12:41 is that the government has no ethical role, right?
12:47 Has no moral authority in telling you
12:50 what you can or cannot do with your body.
12:52 So that's a weird thing just on a matter of principles.
12:57 But it also needs to be said,
13:00 if you believe that we need to do something
13:03 about our drug problem in the United States, as I do,
13:07 I feel extremely strongly as an economist,
13:11 as a father of two, as someone who cares about the community,
13:14 we need to get our arms around this problem.
13:17 We need to try something different.
13:19 And we know that criminalizing health problems doesn't work.
13:23 - I know that you could probably talk to any American
13:27 and they could probably come to a consensus
13:29 that there is a drug problem
13:31 and what we're doing right now isn't working.
13:34 So how does decriminalizing work?
13:38 Because like you said, I mean, if you say,
13:40 "Hey, I'm decriminalizing heroin today."
13:42 I mean, most people aren't going to go,
13:44 "Okay, let me go try it."
13:46 But how does that get people off of drugs?
13:49 - Yeah, it's not just most.
13:51 I would argue that virtually nobody
13:54 is gonna pick up a heroin needle
13:56 just because we decriminalize it.
13:58 I think that's an important thing to say out loud.
14:01 There are two things that are gonna happen.
14:03 One is that people will be more apt
14:08 to be able to approach the medical profession
14:12 and say that I have a problem.
14:15 They're more apt to reach out to family, to friends
14:19 and say that I have a problem.
14:21 I think that you'll see a burgeoning
14:24 in the private sector of solutions
14:27 to which people can reach out.
14:30 But even more specific than that,
14:32 let me lean on my experience as a police officer.
14:36 By the way, a police officer who many times
14:39 has done CPR on young men dying from fentanyl overdose.
14:43 The reason this is so dangerous,
14:45 and we're talking about 100,000 deaths in the United States
14:49 alone on an annual basis, we're approaching this number.
14:54 The reason this is so dangerous
14:57 is because people are taking fentanyl
14:59 without knowing exactly what's in the product they're using.
15:02 They don't know how much, they don't know the strength,
15:05 they don't know the extent to which
15:06 it's fentanyl versus something else.
15:08 In many cases, they don't know
15:09 there's any fentanyl in it at all,
15:11 because it's so powerful, it's hard to control,
15:14 but it's an easy alternative to more expensive drugs.
15:17 And so people will lace products with fentanyl
15:21 in order to create a product
15:23 that's cheap for them to distribute.
15:25 So now you're using a product you don't understand.
15:28 This is where overdoses come from.
15:30 The vast majority of overdoses are not young people saying,
15:35 "I just wanna try something much, much stronger."
15:39 What it comes from is not understanding
15:41 what it is that you're using.
15:42 And that is a traditional characteristic of black markets
15:46 where you just have criminals providing these products
15:50 rather than someone that you can trust at all.
15:54 - I do wanna pivot to another topic that you did touch on,
15:57 and that was the economy and inflation,
15:59 which continue to be top issues facing Americans.
16:02 I know that you proposed capping federal spending.
16:05 How specifically would you do this?
16:07 Let's say you're in the White House.
16:09 - You mentioned inflation, you mentioned spending,
16:13 so I'm gonna take two bites of the apple real quick.
16:16 I do believe that we need to end
16:18 the style of monetary policy
16:20 that we have in the United States.
16:21 The reason it continues to be top of minds
16:24 for many Americans is because it continues to be a problem.
16:28 Republican presidents and Democratic presidents
16:32 have come and gone,
16:34 and yet inflation remains a problem for the past 100 years.
16:39 And so the problem is not just
16:41 replacing some guy in the White House.
16:44 The problem is the way that monetary policy
16:48 is constructed in the United States.
16:50 We need to stop the Federal Reserve
16:52 and stop it as an organization
16:55 that we allow to just create as much money as it wants.
16:58 There is no cap on that.
16:59 We need to get that under control
17:01 and replace the Fed with a rules-based system.
17:05 Regarding the government spending too much money,
17:09 which of course is the fundamental root
17:11 of all of our problems in terms of,
17:14 the government intruding in our economy,
17:18 the way you do that is to cap total spending.
17:21 When I was in the White House
17:22 in the Office of Management and Budget a long time ago,
17:26 we had what we called budget control law,
17:28 which has gone by the wayside.
17:31 But the idea is that Congress is more politically able
17:36 to sign up for an overall cap
17:39 than it is to sign up for a particular reform
17:43 of a particular program.
17:44 Nobody wants to vote against
17:46 their community's favorite program.
17:48 But they will sign up for an overall cap.
17:51 And then you ratchet down the cap over time.
17:56 And you need to ratchet it down in nominal terms
18:00 so that in real terms, inflation-adjusted terms,
18:04 you bring it down pretty dramatically.
18:06 As you know, we are way over 100% of GDP
18:11 in terms of how much debt our federal government
18:14 has racked up.
18:15 We're in relatively uncharted waters regarding how bad,
18:20 how soon a financial collapse of the federal government
18:24 might be around the corner.
18:26 I think the current argument
18:28 is whether the federal government of the United States
18:29 is able to last 10 or 15 years
18:32 or whether it can make it 30 or 40 years.
18:35 But there is no argument that says
18:37 it's on a long-term sustainable path.
18:39 - I know that the Libertarian Party's policies,
18:44 platform ideas are more radical
18:46 than Democrats and Republicans.
18:47 And I wanna talk about a viral moment
18:49 that happened just this past week.
18:52 Chase Oliver was asked if you would vote
18:54 for either Trump or Biden, gun to your head,
18:57 who would you vote for?
18:58 And Chase responded, the gun would go off.
19:01 What do you think of that moment?
19:02 - I think he's exactly right.
19:05 And by the way, I think he's telling the truth.
19:07 Chase is a guy who is just that dedicated.
19:11 If you asked him whether he would give his life
19:14 to avoid one of these two guys from coming to power again,
19:19 he would absolutely do it.
19:20 And you can sign me up for that idea as well.
19:23 What we're talking about, Brittany,
19:26 is saving this nation from a train wreck,
19:31 the rails to which we're on right now.
19:35 This government cannot last on the path that it's on
19:39 past the middle of this century.
19:41 That is not something that I'm just expressing an opinion.
19:45 That's just math.
19:46 That's just arithmetic, right?
19:48 The question is, what are you gonna do about it?
19:51 And there's just no reason to believe
19:53 that the Republican Party or the Democratic Party
19:56 are gonna provide any solutions.
19:58 They haven't talked about cutting back spending.
20:00 They haven't talked about cutting back
20:03 the projection of military power.
20:05 They haven't talked about switching
20:07 from the type of organization that bosses you around
20:11 to the type of organization that just protects your rights
20:13 and your liberty.
20:15 There's no reason to believe
20:16 that they're gonna make any changes at all.
20:18 - So you really think that the situation in this country
20:21 is so dire that you would literally rather die
20:25 than have Biden or Trump go to the White House again?
20:29 - Absolutely.
20:31 I'm surprised you find that an interesting question.
20:34 I think that there are a lot of Americans
20:35 who would agree with me.
20:37 - And so, I know polling does suggest, though,
20:41 that when third-party candidates are in the mix
20:44 with President Biden and former President Trump,
20:47 one of those two candidates is the winner.
20:49 So who do you think is more equipped for a second term,
20:52 Biden or Trump?
20:53 - I think Chase Oliver would do a damn good job
20:57 with a first term.
20:58 I hesitate to even suggest that one of those other two guys
21:03 that you mentioned is equipped.
21:05 You said more equipped.
21:07 I think a lot of Americans are afraid
21:09 that Joe Biden is not equipped to finish out his first term.
21:14 And to your point regarding COVID regime earlier,
21:18 regarding the fact that this whole regime got launched
21:22 under the Donald Trump administration,
21:24 I think that you could build a pretty good case
21:26 that he himself was not equipped
21:28 to finish out his first term.
21:31 And so, I think that that's really where the argument is.
21:34 Did these guys demonstrate
21:36 that they're able to make their way through four years
21:38 without violating our rights?
21:40 And the answer is no.
21:41 - So then, what's next for the Chase Oliver,
21:46 Mike Tremont ticket?
21:48 What are you doing next between now and November?
21:51 - We're gonna be on the road a great deal.
21:53 We're gonna be talking to people like Forbes a great deal,
21:57 which is highly rewarding and I appreciate your time.
22:01 I think that young people are gonna very much warm
22:04 to Chase's delivery and his messaging
22:08 being a young man himself.
22:10 I believe that any number of people
22:12 who are concerned about our economy
22:13 and being concerned about our need
22:15 for criminal justice reform
22:17 will give me their ear as well.
22:20 And so, whether you're a frustrated Republican
22:22 or a frustrated Democrat,
22:24 I think that you're gonna find that the Libertarian Party
22:28 is a very, very welcoming tent.
22:30 The solutions only seem radical
22:34 in the context of the fact
22:36 that the other parties aren't doing anything.
22:38 If you were to compare our solutions
22:41 to the way the framers of the Constitution
22:44 had envisioned this economy and this government working,
22:48 I think you would look at us and say we're bread and butter.
22:51 - Mike Tremont, I appreciate the conversation.
22:54 I appreciate you joining me today.
22:56 You're welcome back anytime.
22:57 Thanks so much.
22:59 - Oh, I'll see you tomorrow then.
23:00 Thanks, Brittany, I appreciate your time.
23:02 (Brittany laughs)
23:05 (upbeat music)
23:08 [BLANK_AUDIO]