'Shogun' star Anna Sawai, along with creators Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks, director Frederick E.O. Toye and stunt choreographer Lauro Chartrand-DelValle break down the climactic scene from the 'Crimson Sky' episode. They describe how historical accuracy, precise fight choreography and Sawai's mesmerizing performance as Mariko combined to create such a memorable scene.
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00:00I was getting so frustrated that they weren't letting me go through and I was
00:10getting frustrated going on the floor and like feeling all this anger and like
00:14kind of shame. It was important to Anna, to Fred, to us as filmmakers that her
00:21femininity becomes the weapon. And it's not pretty, it's painful to watch. I mean
00:27I cry every single time I see it.
00:40Hi, I'm Anna Sawai. Hi, I'm Rachel Kondo and this is Justin Marks. Hi there, I'm
00:46Fred Toye. I'm Laurel Chartrand-Delvalle. And I play Toda Mariko. I'm the second unit
00:51director and stunt coordinator. I'm the director of Shogun. And we are the
00:54co-creators of FX's Shogun. And this is Variety's Making a Scene.
01:06Like many great moments in James Clavel's book, this scene relies on
01:12something not happening. It's about a woman trying to leave the castle and she
01:17doesn't get to leave the castle. And there is such a surprising component of
01:22that when it comes to how we as Westerners approach action sequences. You
01:26know, the character walks into a scene, they're going to fight with a bunch of
01:29people, and they're going to win. Mariko has no intention of winning this fight.
01:32She simply wants to make an expression of her will and demonstrate it to
01:37everyone who's watching what it is that she's trying to do in order to expose
01:42the resolve of her enemies. This is the first time that she's actually going in
01:47and showcasing her position to everyone. There are only a couple people who know
01:52about this plan and she knows that she's not going to be able to leave. But this
01:58is where she has to physically fight and prove that she's being taken hostage. So
02:02it's just important to send out that message, proving to people that they are
02:07in fact not permitted to go outside. I think the pressure in writing the scene
02:13for Callan and I was simply that this is everything Mariko has been saying her
02:20entire life, or not saying, but feeling. And this is her moment in which she can
02:27do it with a loudspeaker. And this is the moment in which people are watching. Our
02:32Shosha team, which is all of the sort of like background research, they are so
02:37critical to the process that if you start from a place of authenticity, that's
02:43a great place to grow from. Because otherwise it's like, what do I think
02:46would happen in 1600 Japan when she tries to, like, I don't know, I think he
02:50should do this, I think she should do that, right? But if you go back to
02:53authenticity, it's not a fantasy where you can make everything up. It's
02:56something real and things that actually happen in historical events. So you start
03:01from that place and you build out from there. And then I, as the director, have
03:05to use my sort of cinematic cap to say, this is going to be the most dramatic
03:12presentation of these factual events.
03:18Justin and Rachel had described the scene as Mariko in the center of an eye
03:23of the storm. And it allowed a visual image to come to my head when I read it.
03:28But there was a unique opportunity in the setting of it because the walls of
03:33the castle were claustrophobic and they were incredibly high. It feels like a
03:38funnel. It feels like a trap being led into. And it's to me, it's like having
03:42the point of view, the specific point of view of knowing that it's Mariko's
03:45journey. I'm taking her through this. And here's the progression. When drawing
03:49storyboards, it became very clear that a view from above would show you
03:53claustrophobia of the walls, it would show you how surrounded she could
03:58possibly be. And if I'm careful to put her in the center of that frame without
04:02anything around her, you would feel that sense of total and complete
04:06entrapment.
04:16We start in the rehearsal stage, we had a matted floor. So when the guys fall
04:20down, it's not beating them up all day long, because we'd be just rehearsing
04:24and experimenting with different falls and stuff like that, that's going to
04:28work for the choreography. But then when we got out there, it was gravel and
04:31they had these kind of sandals on that the costume department did a great job
04:36of making them strong and putting soles on the bottom of them so you could have
04:39some grip.
04:40Having that stance and not wobbling, like you make a strike, that was like the
04:45hardest part. We didn't want it to feel easy, like we don't want it to look easy.
04:49And if it is easy for us, it could look that way. So to actually have like real
04:55gravel, and to fall and actually feel the pain a little bit, I think really
05:00helped.
05:00It was by necessity that we filmed this scene on gravel. I wish we could have
05:04done it in another way. It did require us to get very creative with the footwear
05:08and the visual effects to change the footwear for the safety of our actors.
05:12Most of Mariko's scenes, if you were to look at the bottom of her feet, in the
05:16actual practical footage, you would see the Nike soles of her shoes, because
05:21that's what was on underneath the tobby.
05:24Always foremost in our minds was weaponizing politeness and understanding
05:35that this is a cultural specificity that we can really use to show her will of
05:41steel and her resolve. And we had to render it according to customs, right?
05:49And according to politeness, she had to request over and over, I would like to
05:54leave now. It is my right to leave now. I'm going to leave now. I think that a
05:58lot of the tension was kind of found in that repetition, the cadence and the
06:03repetition of that very simple statement.
06:06It's not about showing your power aggressively. It's so quiet. And I think
06:11it's that much powerful because she hasn't lost her temper. She's so poised
06:17and she expects people to respect her. Just having that composure and knowing
06:23where she stands is important to like, let them know.
06:37I remember just getting goosebumps and being worried about the physicality of
06:42it. Because up till that scene, we only see her fighting in the forest. And it's
06:48mostly just running away. She's not actually going against a dozen men.
06:54Whereas this scene was her showing her physical skills. It was just mentally
07:00preparing myself for that training.
07:02It's on the on the page, and we go to our rehearsal stage. And I bring in my
07:06stunt performers, everybody that I need to rehearse and block out this scene. And
07:10then we start to work our way through it step by step and move by move and try and
07:14catch all the characteristics of that character on the journey through this
07:18story. Right? So is she mad? Is she sad? What is her movement dictate by her
07:24emotions?
07:25I only had one day of learning the choreography. And we all just came
07:29together and for hours we got together. And I think a week or less than that.
07:36Later, we shot the scene.
07:41We shot it without the arrows in the beginning, I was not gonna lose my foot.
07:49So they were like arrow one, arrow two, they're they're screaming it out. And
07:53then I'm reacting to it. And then afterwards, they stuck the arrows in and
07:57I was walking in between the arrows.
08:00She wanted to do it all which she did. She did it all herself. There was no
08:03stunt double. And she wanted it to be perfect. And she also wanted to be able
08:08to play all of that and still act.
08:18I used to dance so I pick up choreography really quick. And also we
08:22had so much training, months of training. So it wasn't really as intense as you
08:29would think. But I think just having so many people involved in making sure that
08:34everyone had their space to feel safe, that kind of stuff, you know, you just
08:39have to like repeat over and over again to make sure that your body kind of
08:43understands what what it's going through.
08:50We didn't have live blades, we had wooden swords that were painted and they
08:55looked fabulous. So you couldn't tell they weren't steel. The main thing that
08:58we always stressed was you'll see a lot of people they'll bring a sword over
09:01their head and they'll bring it back here to get a full strike. And because
09:06we were working with so many people, and they were in close proximity, we
09:11couldn't have that because you can stab somebody behind you that's fighting with
09:14someone else and take out an eye or worse, right. So we constantly practiced
09:19bringing it straight up and cutting from there.
09:22When we started training, we weren't really sure how dynamic the choreography
09:27was going to be. So we did do the ones that looked amazing, but in reality
09:32would have probably not been done. And then we toned it down to making it look
09:37like a real fight. Everything that you see is, it feels like with one stroke,
09:43like you can actually kill the person or you can get killed. It was really hard
09:48because for women, they were using the naginata and it was like a really long
09:53sword. And so even the most simple like stroke could be very, very tiring for the
09:58arm, like you have to train yourself in order to actually make it look like you
10:02can use it. And also with the sleeves from the kimono, like it would get stuck.
10:08So if we have the sword, the blade would be on one end and the other long end
10:13would kind of like, get into the kimono. And so you would have to be able to, you
10:20know, use that properly. So like we couldn't do all the intricate, like
10:24amazing actiony things because it was way too complicated for our show. By
10:30toning it down, I think that it looks even more like the stakes are even
10:34higher.
10:38And one of the biggest things that went along with the safety of it was my no
10:42bullshit rule. So I constantly barked at them about this because there's a lot of
10:49fight scenes that go on in other shows that are very entertaining. And that's
10:52what people are looking at them for entertainment. So a lot of times it
10:57happens in a fight that they have what I call filler, and they're clacking the
11:00swords over their head. So they'll block it up here. Why are you doing that? Just
11:05let it go by and slice the guy and kill him because that was what we're about.
11:09Efficiency, killing, now, quick. It wasn't to make the fight go on and be
11:15entertaining. It was reality based. You slip and gravel a bit, but they'd
11:18rehearsed enough that they would tighten up their stance so they didn't
11:21have it too wide and start slipping out. They take a lot of falls and they got
11:24beat up over the course of the two days that we shot that, you know, because
11:27you're doing the same scene over and over from different angles and, and
11:31things like that.
11:31So it's always important to kind of know how much you can, how wide your stance
11:37can be. Women back then did not wear underwear, like they didn't have a proper
11:42kind of like what we wear today. And so they would have to keep their knees
11:45closed in order to make sure that everything was, you know, safe and not
11:49seen. But the thing is with this scene, because she is fighting kind of for her
11:54life, we decided that it was okay that she kind of let her knees separate and
12:00for her to move a little bit more freely. It's also important to know the weight
12:04of the outfit if possible, but it's also hard because you can't really wear
12:09layers and layers unless you're actually wearing the exact outfit. So I would
12:15just wear a couple of layers to kind of remind myself of the weight. But then on
12:20the day, I think it really changes because you're wrapped in like seven
12:24layers of clothing, you have a wooden weapon, and the stunt guys are also like
12:29you, you have to like come closer because it's not going to look real. So it all
12:34just kind of heightens on the day.
12:36I had to show that she had enough force to move them a little bit because they
12:40don't want to get cut because she will cut them if they get within range, but
12:45they could only block and try to stop her. They couldn't stab her with those
12:49spears, right? So it was a lot of, it was a bit like a wave. It was going back and
12:53forth. So you saw some blocks up high where they trapped it, and some blocks
12:58down low where they trapped it, and they were just continually trying to force
13:01her back into the center or keep her from getting to that gate. So that was
13:05another big part of the choreography that went hand in hand with that
13:08exhaustion part for Mariko.
13:10What we were constantly playing with was how much of below the surface Mariko
13:17needs to be revealed in this particular moment, and how little. And I think she
13:21did an incredible job of calibrating that very specific point of seeing and
13:26feeling her determination and yet feeling her humanity at the same time.
13:30And if you watch her and you watch her performance, there's an incredible
13:33performance in the way that she does it, and I think it's really important to
13:38see an incredible performance inside of those moments, even up to the moment in
13:44which she kind of breaks down and stops. It's a really, really dynamic performance
13:48that she did. I give her so much kudos and credit for having pulled that off
13:51because it's really, really difficult to play that sort of emotional subtlety
13:56within such a precise rehearsed sword fight.
14:00It was very important to us to subvert what we feel is a very common cliche in
14:07action storytelling, that when you have a woman in a violent or action-driven
14:14situation like this, there is a tendency, I don't know why, to appropriate qualities
14:21that we would otherwise consider masculine in some way of trying to sort
14:25of, you know, equal these playing fields. And it was important to Anna, to Fred, to
14:31us as filmmakers, that her femininity becomes the weapon. And to do that, we
14:38wanted to see that this was a woman fighting for her life in every human way
14:44possible, and that we were not going to manipulate this in the classic Hollywood
14:50sense to sort of give everyone superpowers and make this seem like
14:53something it wasn't. This is an act of theater and protest that she's doing, and
14:59with great dignity, she is doing it.
15:01And it's not pretty. It's painful to watch. I mean, I cry every single time I
15:06see it. I almost have to shield my eyes because here is this woman who has been
15:12supremely dignified this entire story, and even in this moment in which people
15:18might see her as compromised, she's not.
15:29It really helped me emotionally as well that I was able to give my physicality
15:34100% because I was getting so frustrated that they weren't letting me go through.
15:40And I was getting frustrated going on the floor and, like, feeling all this
15:43anger and, like, kind of shame because she's never been in a position where she
15:49was getting denied, except for denied to kill herself. And I just remember, like,
15:54really tearing up. And you can hear in final edits her being like, a little bit
16:00because she's holding back her tears. And that was me. I wasn't intentionally
16:04doing that. That was just happening.
16:15They're almost like yelps or groans. I'm not really sure how you would describe
16:21it, but it was very, very, very specific to Anna's performance. And it's, I feel
16:26like it was when she basically physically came to the end of what she could do. And
16:31it's that release. And she put everything into everything she did. But this is not
16:36only America. This is her father. This is her family. This is the legacy that was
16:42cut off with her father's head. You know, like, a lot of this is all in this last
16:47bursts of cries, maybe. It's really hard to define.
16:56It was important that the exhaustion moment of Mariko, at the moment in which
17:02she can no longer fight, is not presented as weakness. And it also can't come across
17:08as being, I'm too good for this. It has to be a very, very specific kind of an
17:12emotion that feels strong. But ultimately, she's powerless. She's accepted the fact
17:18that this is an impenetrable wall, and there's no way of her getting out. So I
17:23think that that particular moment, yes, could not be ADR'd. It needed to be
17:27gotten there because it's a guttural thing. It's a very emotional, it's a, you
17:32know, it comes out for real. And so, yes, it was critical to get that right.
17:43At this later stage, Anna Sawai as an actress and Mariko as a character,
17:50they're blending for me. And so sometimes it's hard to, you know, separate the two
17:55from each other. She just wanted to stay exactly as Mariko would be. And I think
18:01that that speaks to who Mariko is as a character, as well. She was
18:07so devoted to upholding that degree of focus.
18:11Every time there was a reset, Anna just stayed. She was an island in that storm.
18:16Just, you know, you go up to her, everything okay? You're there? She's like, fine.
18:19I'm just standing right there. Every time I watch that scene, I'm so just drawn to
18:24as an audience member and moved by.
18:26It's strange because everyone's applauding me for that. But I think that's just how
18:33I am. And that may be a Japanese thing where you're feeling a lot, but you feel
18:39the need to kind of cover that and not express as much. And so it was just about
18:45just being in the moment and staying true to my character.
18:57It's the climax point in which we all think she might be a little bit obsessed
19:03with death, right? She's been saying this entire story. In essence, I want to die.
19:08I want to die. I want to die. The reason why I think this scene is so important is
19:11because I don't think Mariko wants to die. I think she wants to stand for something.
19:18I think she wants her life to add up to something and to mean something. And I think that in
19:23her world and in her time, the act of seppuku and the act of dying was a way to highlight
19:32exactly how you want to live and what convictions you stand by.
19:37She knew that this was going to happen, that they were not going to let her leave. And
19:41by going back and by Sunset taking her own life, she was going to make an even more powerful
19:49statement. And so this is all kind of part of the plan. It's not a surprise that this
19:54is happening. So at a certain point, you will see her kind of come back to herself and forgetting
20:00all the tears and everything that she was going through emotionally. It's like, now
20:07I'm back to my plan. And there's a strength in that.
20:19You also have to remember that this is a woman who sat stone still while an arrow flew right
20:25past her face. She has never let anything out. She has never said enough is enough.
20:31She has never made that true expression of her will. And there's something so cathartic
20:37to seeing her as she is in that moment. And if anything, you know, for Blackthorne in
20:43that scene, I think that's what he's seeing there is this is her true self. This is the
20:47secret heart. This is it coming out for everyone to see, which is a very brave and vulnerable
20:52choice for any actor to make. And Hannah does it with a dignity that I think is becoming
20:59of her character.
21:00That's just Japanese culture to be feeling all these things, but to be repressed, especially
21:06women were not allowed that freedom to express what they were going through. And so in past
21:13cinema or TV, we have not seen the complexities of Japanese women in that way. And so I'm
21:22so grateful that finally we're able to give this version where they are struggling and
21:28they're not obedient because they want to be obedient. They're obedient because they're
21:32pressured. And that was society. It was important to just show that part because it's true to
21:37who we are.