During a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing last week, Rep. Nathaniel Moran (R-TX) questioned witnesses about preventing hostages from being taken and policies to help get them back.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to each of the witnesses here today for this important discussion.
00:04My heart simply goes out to all those men and women abroad that are being detained inappropriately and to their families.
00:11I know it's a great burden on each one of those families when when this happens.
00:17Ambassador Carstens, I want to start with you and ask you a couple of questions in particular about some adversarial countries like Iran and Venezuela.
00:26Tell us what we are doing specifically to take away the incentives for hostages to be taken in the future.
00:35Congressman, I appreciate that question. We think deterrence is very important.
00:39We've got to come up with a way that raises the cost for these countries taking our citizens.
00:44I think it's going to take some time to build it, but I think we're already on that glide path that
00:48one day will get us to the point where we raise the cost so high that they'll stop taking our citizens.
00:53Right now, we're working with our partners and allies, most specifically the Canadians,
00:58who through their arbitrary detention initiative have brought countries to the fore,
01:03signing the Declaration Against Arbitrary Detention State-to-State Relations,
01:07currently signed by 76 countries in the European Union, trying to re-establish that norm
01:12that taking citizens and using them as political bargaining chips is just not something we should be doing.
01:18We've also established, along with the Canadians, an independent legal panel made
01:22up of high-level jurists who can start looking at some of the legal remedies that we might have
01:26to also put this problem to rest.
01:29And let me ask you about one of those.
01:30One step that might be taken is creating an official designation for maybe what's called,
01:35quote, state sponsor of arbitrary detention.
01:37Is that something you guys have discussed within the agency?
01:42I think it's being discussed right now by the independent legal panel.
01:45These are things that we've also talked about with lawyers, not only within the State Department,
01:51but the interagency.
01:52We've also reached out to places like the Atlantic Council and CSIS to have these legal
01:57discussions because right now, there are legal tools available and agreements available that
02:02we've not put into the service of stopping this problem.
02:05And they're probably ones that we're going to have to tie into.
02:08And we may actually be coming back to Congress over the next year or two to ask for more
02:12authorities that allow us to have more of a more muscular legal response to this being done.
02:17You talked about the Levinson Act earlier.
02:19That's one of the tools.
02:21Are you using sanctions that are allowed under the Levinson Act to help deter and get back
02:26our hostages?
02:28We've done so 15 times.
02:30I think you've probably noticed that we've leveled sanctions against groups in Iran.
02:34We've leveled sanctions against groups in Russia.
02:37We've leveled sanctions against specific individuals in JNIM.
02:41And the idea is that if we can level a sanction to get some sort of justice and accountability
02:46or effect a return, that's a good move.
02:49I have to confess, sometimes it's hard to level a sanction when you're currently in
02:52the negotiating space and you're trying to figure out if a sanction is leveled, what
02:56kind of pressure will that bring to bear?
02:57Will that get someone back or will that push that farther away?
03:01But to date, we've definitely used that sanctioning authority given to us by Congress.
03:05Have you also considered the possibility of amending the Foreign Sovereign Immunities
03:09Act to allow for private suits against countries that have a state sponsor of arbitrary detention
03:15designation?
03:16Have you guys considered that?
03:17Congressman, we've been talking about that for three years and that's absolutely something
03:20that we wrestle with.
03:21So, yes.
03:22What's your opinion about that?
03:23Do you think that's a good idea?
03:25I almost feel like I'm worried if I should say that we wait until we get an official
03:29decision on that before I render it.
03:31But to my mind, I would lean towards it.
03:33I mean, if a country is allowing its, if the country is behaving to the point that it's
03:37taking citizens as bargaining chips, that's something that has to be addressed.
03:41But it's, I imagine that the greater legal minds, I didn't go to law school, wasn't smart
03:46enough to get in.
03:47But I imagine that the lawyers that we've employed in trying to research this will come
03:51up with an answer that makes sense and we'll try to progress forward.
03:54I wasn't smart enough either, but somehow I did get into law school.
03:58I'm curious also about one other possible tool in your toolbox because that's really
04:02I think what we're talking about is giving you tools in the toolbox to get our hostages
04:06back.
04:06What about amending Title 18, making wrongful detention a crime and allowing suits against
04:12foreigners in those instances?
04:14I feel like you've been talking to my team because that's something that we've also been
04:17talking about.
04:18And I tell you, as we go forward, I don't think we've been shy about reaching out to
04:20Capitol Hill.
04:21We're happy to work with members of your staff and others to see if we can develop and create
04:25some more positive ways to use legal tools in the service of trying to stop this thing.
04:32But let me throw one thing at you real quick.
04:34To our mind, there is the sanctioning authority, but we feel like there are tools out there
04:38across all elements of national power that we could take and put into service of trying
04:43to stop this.
04:44Or maybe we need to come back to Congress and ask for authorities.
04:47But it can't just be diplomas.
04:48We have to think in terms of intelligence, the military, law enforcement, economic tools,
04:54all elements of national power could probably put in some sense into the service of trying
04:58to make this go away.
04:59And we look forward to working with you and your team as we go forward and explore those.
05:03I agree with those comments.
05:04And I think what you'll find on this panel today is this is a very bipartisan issue and
05:08one that we can work together.
05:09If there are legislative suggestions, I would ask you to bring those to us specifically
05:13so that we can work through the legislative process and give you some more tools in the
05:17toolbox so that we can protect our citizens when they are abroad.
05:20Thank you all for your work.
05:21Thank you, sir.
05:21Appreciate it.
05:22I yield back.
05:23Thank you, Mr. Moran.
05:24Chair now recognizes Ms. Titus for five minutes.
05:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
05:29You heard earlier