What we eat might be eating us out || Acharya Prashant, in conversation #Veganism

Acharya Prashant

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Transcript

00:00Talking about the recent PETA and this controversy between a dairy producer.

00:09So you know people are saying that lakhs of people are going to lose employment if they

00:13switch to plant-based milk.

00:15So what do you have to say about this?

00:19See the employment argument, I appreciate it, but it is not absolute in itself.

00:30In fact the employment argument can be stretched to absurd extremes.

00:38I could say pickpockets are employed in their own industry, the pickpocketing industry.

00:46Why are you arresting them?

00:49It's an industry, why are you arresting them?

00:53You are making several hundreds, if not thousands or lakhs lose employment.

01:02By no means am I saying that a dairy farmer is a pickpocket, please don't take it to that level.

01:16But what I am saying is that are all means of employment really permissible legally,

01:26ethically, whichever way you want to look at it.

01:33If the employment argument is absolute in itself, then anything that helps a man earn

01:39money should be permissible.

01:44Then why do we for example punish tax defaulters?

01:54He is just trying to make some money for himself, just as the butcher is trying to make money

01:58for himself.

02:01So just because something, some activity yields money to somebody, that does not mean that

02:09the activity is okay.

02:12Otherwise there are a thousand debauched ways of earning money, making money, we would have

02:17to allow each single one of them.

02:20So firstly this is about the argument that, because whenever you want to take a corrective

02:27step, there is always this argument that is thrown at you, that this will lead to loss

02:34of livelihood.

02:36If you want to switch to a greener technology, not much to do with veganism, but let's say

02:42you want to switch to a greener technology, then people will say the old technology was

02:47manpower intensive, so there were so many who were earning their bread from it, now

02:51you have switched to a technology that is more automated, so loss of livelihood, loss

02:55of livelihood, this kind of thing.

02:59If you do anything progressive, it is generally believed that it leads to loss of livelihood

03:05and prima facie it does.

03:09But when you look at the complete picture, when you zoom out a little and you look at

03:16the complete picture, you find that it is not leading to lack of employment, because

03:20if it is actually a new technology, a better way of living, it is leading to an overall

03:27increase of efficiency in the economy.

03:32So in many many other ways, it will lead to employment generation, the problem here is

03:39the loss of employment happens in one localized area, in one localized segment.

03:45So for example, those who earn through dairy, they lose money, so that is very visible,

03:52and some zealous reporter can go and create a documentary and say, you know, you look

03:57at this, his name is something, Mr. Pankaj Singh, Pankaj Singh had 40 buffalos and he

04:05used to earn so much per month and now he is not making that money.

04:11So now one particular individual, he has lost money and that is visible, but there would

04:18be a thousand people who would have marginally increased their incomes, that would not be

04:26visible.

04:27Are you getting it?

04:29Because the overall efficiency of the system has increased.

04:33You see one person has lost 10,000 rupees a month, that is very very visible and it

04:38becomes a localized thing, the tragedy now has a human face, the face is of Mr. Pankaj

04:46Singh and you can say Pankaj Singh who has lost money, Pankaj Singh has lost 10k, 10,000,

04:52there are thousand others, one thousand others who each have gained 50 rupees each, so how

04:59much is the gain, 50,000, how much is the loss, 10,000, but that 50,000 gain is distributed

05:06among 1,000 people, so it is not a big story, it is not sensational, no, it is not sensational

05:13at all, no reporter will go and make a story out of somebody adding just 5% to his income,

05:23just 50 rupees has been added to that fellow's income, it is not an exciting story, but one

05:28fellow losing 10,000 is a big story, what we fail to see is that in a nutshell, on the

05:37total there is a gain and if there is a gain, what can be done, all those fellows who have

05:45gained 50 rupees, can rupees 5 or 10 be collected from them and Mr. Pankaj Singh be subsidized,

05:58now what has happened, all those fellows who have gained, you collected, they have gained

06:03rupees 50 each, since they have gained rupees 50 each, you collect rupees 10 from each of them

06:09and feed Mr. Pankaj, now Mr. Pankaj stands at a point of no loss and all those other people stand

06:19at a point of gain of rupees 40, everybody has gained, everybody has gained, are you getting it?

06:25So, that kind of a thing can be done, but this is a classical problem in economics,

06:32losses are localized, so they are very visible, the gains are scattered and long term, so they

06:42are not easily visible, be it something like GST or whatever, the trouble that you face,

06:49the pain that you face is immediate and it has a human face, whereas the benefits that you get

06:58are distributed and long term, so they do not make for an exciting and sellable story, so they don't

07:07get popularized and that's the trouble governments and reformers all over the world face, whenever

07:15they want to do something progressive, this is the argument that is hurled at them, this is going

07:20to lead to lack, loss of livelihood and loss of employment and such things, so…

07:30So, even the European Union has banned the use of term milk for plant milk producers in Europe and European area basically,

07:39so similar trend is being seen in India also and now I think FSSAI notification is going

07:45to come in very soon on this, so do you think that there must be some efforts from the government

07:50side also to push this sector, the plant-based sector and the companies in this?

07:58If you have an enlightened leader, that would happen, but even if you do not have a very

08:05enlightened leader, why do you wait for the government policies, please tell me, plant-based

08:13products are anyway more economical to produce, you do not even require government subsidy,

08:25I am very closely associated with a firm that is bringing in plant-based products, not in

08:36a commercial sense, but I have been mentoring them in a spiritual way you could say, so

08:44I know for sure how inexpensive it is, I know for sure that if you tell the population that

08:54what I am serving to you with fortified ingredients has all the goodness of milk at one-third

09:03the price, at one-fifth the price, people will take it, maybe initially there would

09:09be some reluctance, some suspicion, but gradually the thing would ease into their systems, so

09:17you do not even need positive government policy interventions, you don't need that, all you

09:23need is willpower and the resolve to bring it to the masses and make money, it's something

09:36that can succeed even commercially, so it's a good combination where you have ethics on

09:44your side, where you have spirituality on your side and where you also have commercial

09:48gain on your side and all this can be put into one, it's a fantastic opportunity for

09:54entrepreneurial advances.

09:56Okay, so talking about this, soya is the most widely consumed food by vegans in different

10:03forms and most of the soya that comes into India and in other places is all GMO, so people

10:10say that it's harmful for health and there are a lot of, basically they have reservations

10:14about it, what do you have to say about that?

10:17If it indeed is genetically modified, then it's a great opportunity for someone to produce

10:27organic or natural soya without any genetic interventions in it and market it, it need

10:37not be GM soya.

10:41So, basically Indian farmers need to, they have a lot of opportunities in it.

10:47Obviously, I don't know whether you have done the numbers on this, but you will be surprised

10:52at how inexpensive the whole thing comes out to be, in fact when I said I have mentored

10:59one concern, I have actually mentored two of them, and one of them actually supplies

11:06tofu and dahi and rassi, all of these vegan to this place, and it was just last week or

11:20some time, I was scrolling the conversations that Bittul here had with him on a group,

11:29and the entire load that he had delivered, this much, was for some 500 bucks, 500 rupees

11:39and this much stuff, and you taste it, it's wonderful, and you look at the minerals, vitamins

11:49and all other stuff, it has proteins, it's again wonderful, the economic argument is

11:58in favour of it, the health argument is in favour of it, the spiritual argument favours

12:04it, why would then anybody deny it, people do care for their pocket, don't they?

12:13You know what, very silently, tofu is anyway creeping into our diets, a lot of these eater

12:28is, tofu is being used in large quantities, why because it is cheaper compared to paneer,

12:39so they are using tofu, and it tastes equally good, and it's not at all differentiable,

12:48otherwise their customers would have complained, the nutrition is fantastic, the taste is equally

12:57good, provided you know how to cook and all that, the process is a little different, so

13:03that's the argument that probably will help a lot, the economics, but even for that, the

13:12entrepreneur has to ensure that the pricing is right, if you look at the biggest soy brands

13:24in the country, who sell soy milk and all, I find their pricing just not optimal, the

13:35result will be that they will be able to skim a lot of cream, make a lot of money for themselves,

13:45but will fail in expanding the market, the market size will remain small, so they will

13:53have a small customer base, but with large margins, so in total they will be able to

14:03make some money, which I think is a bad deal, it's far better to expand the market by lowering the prices.

14:12Okay, talking about meat eating, there are some cultures, even in India, it's a very

14:19intrinsic part of their culture, and they have been eating meat since the time immemorial,

14:24so what do you think, how can that mindset be changed, how can they change their habits,

14:28do you think meat alternatives that are coming into the market can help them shift to…

14:33I am in favour of meat alternatives, anything that saves the poor animal's life, it's okay,

14:40it's lab grown meat, fine, it's soya chunks, fine, and I think there are some other alternatives

14:47also, that taste so much like meat, anything that saves the poor animal from that farm

14:57and that knife is welcome, see dropping meat is not all that difficult, we make that happen

15:07everyday, as far as our organization is concerned, we do not have an exact number, but the estimate

15:20is tens of thousands of people, who would have dropped meat, and relatively smaller

15:29number who would have dropped dairy as well, let's say 50% of those who have dropped meat,

15:37so that happens, and it's not as if people drop it for a while and then go back to it,

15:46we know for sure that there are people who dropped it five years back and have no inclination

15:51at all to revert to meat, so people will drop meat, probably you need to give them a strong

16:01enough reason, had we been so mad after meat, we would have dug up corpses, and enjoyed

16:17their meat as well, had we been so mad after meat, then the Muslim would have gone after

16:26pork and the Hindu would have gone after beef, but we don't do that, once we have a

16:33strong reason to not consume meat, we listen, that reason is missing, somebody needs to

16:46have the clarity and the voice and the power to bring that reason to the population, people

16:56will listen and I believe in the intrinsic goodness of every person, we all behave in

17:07very very pitiable ways, we know that, we see that, that often times we behave as if

17:15we are absolute monsters, but still the potential to be very very good remains within all of

17:23us, and I have faith in that, so I would not be a cynic and feel that it's Kali Yuga and

17:37it's therefore very difficult to evoke compassion inside a person, or that this current generation

17:45has gone to dogs and now nobody can rectify them, I don't subscribe to all this, I think

17:53if we can talk to them properly with due reasons and get them to act from the right centre

18:09within, things can change, things can change quite swiftly.

18:25Last question from my side, how do you think veganism will fare in the coming years, where

18:31do you see it going in the next couple of years basically, how will the growth be?

18:35There are two different trajectories and the vegan movement will follow one of them

18:47or be situated at some point in the middle of them.

18:57The first trajectory is the way it is currently going, it will remain a foreign concept, a

19:10thing for the rich, a fad for the elite, that's how the general public takes it, because I

19:20am in touch with the common populations and dealing with people on an everyday basis is

19:26what I do, so I know how they look at veganism, that's one possibility, the other possibility

19:34is you ask yourself again and again, what is it that made India vegetarian and the same

19:43forces that made India vegetarian will make India vegan as well, you will have to respect

19:50those forces, you will have to channelize those forces in your favour, because veganism

19:56is nothing but the logical culmination of vegetarianism, where does vegetarianism come

20:06from, the feeling that I will not kill the animal, I don't want to harm the animal, that

20:13same feeling finds its final expression in veganism, when I say killing the animal is

20:26very very bad, but when I am milking the animal, that too is bad, not only that when

20:33I am milking the animal, I am preparing the grounds for its slaughter, so you will have

20:43to extend vegetarianism into veganism, instead of that I often find that vegans take vegetarianism

20:52as some kind of adversary, they say no, no, no vegetarianism, in fact it's a very strange

20:57thing, I have found, I don't know whether it's a subconscious thing or what, but vegans

21:04often take vegetarians as bigger adversaries compared to even meat eaters, you see meat

21:16eaters, we can probably talk to them, but vegetarians, they are horrible, this is a

21:25problem, huge problem, I repeat veganism will have to be taken as the pinnacle of vegetarianism,

21:37vegetarianism is not an enemy, you could say vegetarianism is a work in process and veganism

21:44is the final output, when you go to the people and talk in this language and explain the

21:50concept like this, then they will understand.

21:55So Indianizing veganism should be the motto.

21:57Indianizing and spiritualizing, it's very important.

22:02Thank you so much, they were wonderful insights and gained a lot of knowledge, and this was

22:06actually a very different take from what others say.

22:09Wonderful and I have looked at the work you do, the site you run, it's wonderful, I wish

22:15you all success, and the country, the world, we all need many more people like you, many

22:23more such initiatives, and I really wish that you stay on course and keep progressing with

22:32success.

22:33Thank you so much.

22:39Thank you.

22:40Thank you.

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