The Meyers Report 6-24-2024 Round Table
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00:00Well, Rob is one of our guys, and right now, in the last week, he has been in maybe ten
00:16days, Indonesia, I'm not sure where, the hinterlands of the Philippines and Manila, Dubai, and
00:26he should have landed in Boston sometime last night.
00:31And this is in a week.
00:34And he is an expert on anti-terrorism.
00:37And by the way, Mick, just so you know, Paul McGonigal is, I'm going to change the names
00:43here.
00:44One second.
00:45Paul, how come you have your name run together?
00:50I have no idea.
00:51It didn't used to.
00:52I don't know what happened.
00:53Paul, where are you located?
00:59I'm in, currently I'm on Martha's Vineyard.
01:03Oh, very nice.
01:04I migrate between here and Boston.
01:06I live half the year down here and half the year in Boston.
01:09Okay.
01:10I could tell it was somewhere more.
01:13Except, improperly said in the local dialect, I live half the year down here and half the
01:18year in Boston.
01:19Got it.
01:21Got it.
01:27Okay.
01:28And Mick, how do we?
01:31Are you kidding me?
01:34Well, that's all you own.
01:37I am that.
01:38Yeah.
01:39Oh, should we take that off so it's not publicized?
01:41No, you can leave it up there.
01:42I don't care.
01:43I mean, it is what it is, right?
01:47Paul, by the way, is a former international banker and diplomat.
01:53For lack of a better way of putting it, he's also a Democrat.
01:59And he is not armed except for slingshots, which we have.
02:06And you have a BB gun or an air rifle?
02:09I do have a BB gun.
02:11Okay.
02:12And Mick is-
02:15I bought the BB gun after my wife passed away, actually.
02:18She would not have allowed that had she been alive.
02:21And she told me so in no uncertain terms.
02:24That's interesting because my wife does not want me to go out of the house unless I am armed.
02:31Yeah.
02:32To anywhere.
02:33My wife was radically anti-weapon.
02:36How long ago did Margot die?
02:38The idea materialized because I was going to buy the BB gun.
02:43A BB gun to chase the turkeys out of the backyard because she hated having the turkeys around.
02:48Well, why didn't you kill a couple of them and eat them?
02:50If you look behind me, it's all woods behind me, right?
02:52So the place is all full of turkeys and squirrels and skunks and all kinds of stuff like that.
02:57Well, you could have had some good eating.
03:00It's tough.
03:01It's a lot of work to eat a wild turkey because the meat's real tough.
03:06And so you need to treat it very specially to make it edible.
03:12I used to eat turkeys and geese and everything when I was a kid because my Italian grandfather used to shoot them and bring them home.
03:19To eat?
03:20Yeah.
03:21And squirrels and rabbits and...
03:24Edie used to eat that as well for the same reasons.
03:27Yeah.
03:28Yeah.
03:31Okay.
03:32Welcome to the...
03:34It'd also bring them home if you ran them over in the car.
03:37Well, actually, that's legal now in a lot of states.
03:41If somebody else ran it over, he wouldn't take it home.
03:43He didn't pick a bro kill, but if he hit it, he would get out of the car and bring it home.
03:48Assuming he didn't flatten the thing when he hit it, yeah.
03:53Okay.
03:54Anyway.
03:55Welcome...
03:56That's not why we're on this call.
04:02Welcome to the June 24th, 2024 edition of our roundtable.
04:10Today, the subject is synagogues and houses of worship.
04:15Should they be able to protect them themselves?
04:18Because as the saying goes, when seconds count, the police will be there in minutes.
04:25And these days, maybe not even then.
04:28We have with us today, Mitch Rose, who is an Orthodox Jew.
04:33And who is a head of a security committee at his synagogue who feels the need for protection.
04:44Paul McGonigal, a former diplomat during the Reagan administration and an international banker.
04:50A world traveler who, as the caption says, owns a slingshot.
04:57He has not owned a weapon.
05:00And he tends to be moderate to slightly left of moderate.
05:05Is that a fair statement, Paul?
05:07I'd say moderate is probably a better description.
05:11And that's because historically I was a Democrat, but the Democratic Party has moved a bit and I haven't.
05:18So the relationship between the Democratic Party and me has changed.
05:23I would more accurately characterize me today as sort of an H.W. Bush Republican.
05:29I was born and raised a liberal Democrat.
05:32What about you, Mitch?
05:34I would say so.
05:36Also, growing up in the North Shore family was probably more Democrat, liberal leaning.
05:43And I think actually, like Paul, I also consider myself a moderate.
05:50But I think others may not agree with that, depending on the issue.
05:55And I also agree that I think I've more or less stayed the same.
06:00Maybe a little bit shifting to the right.
06:02But certainly, it seems like on a lot of issues, the Democratic Party has shifted considerably to the left.
06:09Agreed.
06:11Okay. Here's the issue at stake today.
06:14It's not just synagogues.
06:16These are incidents. This is from the U.S. government.
06:20They're incidents, attacks on houses of worship in the U.S. in the past few years.
06:26And they're becoming increasingly prevalent.
06:30We also all know about Dagestan in Russia, where two synagogues and two Orthodox, Orthodox,
06:40I think it's Russian Orthodox churches were attacked, or Greek Orthodox churches.
06:44And from our own people who are out in the field around the world,
06:48we are being told that the threat today for terrorism is higher than at any time
06:57in our country's history that it's been since 9-11.
07:01So, that being said, Mitch, your synagogue has a belief that you should have parishioners who are armed.
07:14Can you tell us why and what the qualifications and how does it work with you guys?
07:18Yeah, I think our approach to the issue, you know, is that there's obviously many facets, many layers to security.
07:27And, you know, starting from very simple things that anyone can do,
07:32you know, locking doors and having a single point of entry and egress, things like that.
07:42And then, you know, obviously there are things that if you need to escalate and greater response,
07:48let's say, is required, then, you know, you have the ability to have as many options at your disposal as possible.
07:56And obviously there are legal thresholds that need to be met before, you know, using lethal force.
08:05But if we did have a situation, God forbid, where lethal force was being deployed against us,
08:13someone came in, you know, brandishing a weapon, something like that,
08:17with, you know, clearly there was an intent to cause bodily harm, you know, to others,
08:23you know, then we would be able to respond accordingly if that was what was appropriate.
08:30And I think the way that we arrived at that posture, that it included, you know, that type of response,
08:39is really just kind of looking at how other, in other areas, how we approach these types of situations.
08:47And I can just kind of outline that for you very briefly, you know, because I think that kind of frames our approach.
08:52And I think our approach is generally that, you know, we look to professionals to resolve situations
08:59that are really, you know, within their area of expertise and their area of domain.
09:05So I think, you know, that could be said in medical, in a medical context.
09:10You would obviously, you would look to doctors to treat a medical situation.
09:14If you had a fire, you would look to firefighters to address a fire situation.
09:19And if you have a, you know, security situation, you look to the police.
09:22And we certainly do take that approach.
09:25The question is, you know, if those individuals, if those professionals are not immediately available,
09:31and you have an emergency situation, you know, is there a way that we can help improve an outcome?
09:38And again, kind of looking to this model, you know, we see that in the context of a medical emergency,
09:46you know, while we certainly want to have the best set of hands we can have available,
09:50you know, a doctor or an EMT, if a doctor is not available,
09:54that we do train ordinary people and provide them or want them to have equipment available
10:01to be able to respond to a medical emergency.
10:04So all of us, I mean, I've been doing CPR since I remember doing CPR in junior high school,
10:09you know, in the 70s, and I've done it many times since then.
10:13Since that time, you know, we've all, we now have AEDs all over the place,
10:17and we've been trained to use AEDs.
10:19I have a tourniquet that I keep in my car, and I've taken Stop the Bleed courses.
10:25We've been trained in the Heimlich maneuver, you know, things like that.
10:28And the reason for that is simple.
10:31The reason is because we understand that, as you said at the outset, you know, when seconds count,
10:38that if you have someone who has proper training and has equipment
10:43that they can use to their advantage, that it can improve outcomes.
10:47Same is true in the fire context.
10:49If, you know, someone has training, knows how to fight a fire,
10:52learns about different types of fires, has the right kind of fire extinguisher,
10:56knows how to use it or a fire blanket, things like that, they can improve outcomes.
11:01Obviously, we want to, you know, not be the fire department.
11:04That's what they're for, you know, so we rely on them.
11:07But in an emergency, we want to know that we have tools and training at our disposal.
11:12We teach little kids, you know, stop, drop, and roll.
11:15We do fire drills, things like that.
11:17And even in the security context, and I say sort of unfortunately,
11:21I mean more and more common you see in schools and in workplaces
11:25that we're doing active shooter drills.
11:28So, you know, following this same type of approach, the question is,
11:32if you did have a situation where you had to respond immediately
11:36and you couldn't wait for the police to arrive and you had to eliminate an active threat,
11:42could you improve an outcome by having tools and training, you know, at your disposal?
11:49And we've concluded that we can.
11:51And so for that reason, we do have people who have training to use firearms.
11:57And we have, you know, a select group of individuals who we trust to hopefully make,
12:04you know, the right decisions and not use deadly force when it's not appropriate.
12:11But if, God forbid, that situation were to arise, that they have the tools that they need
12:16to be able to eliminate a threat and hopefully improve an outcome, you know,
12:24and getting a better result than we would otherwise have without the tools and training.
12:30How have you selected your people? Do you have law enforcement and militarily trained people?
12:37Yeah, I think like anything, I mean, you take the best that you can.
12:41You know, you deal with the situation that you have and you take the best that you have available.
12:47If I had Navy SEALs, you know, as members of my congregation,
12:50I would certainly start with Navy SEALs.
12:53Unfortunately, you know, we don't have too many of those.
12:56So, you know, looking at people who have experience with firearms, who,
13:02and I think really, and I think this should not be understated,
13:05it's probably one of the most important criteria, who are level-headed.
13:10You trust that they are going to make good decisions,
13:15that they're going to take their responsibility seriously,
13:18and that they're going to maintain, you know, a high level of training.
13:22And by that, I mean, you know, whatever the professional standards are in the industry,
13:27that that should be, that is our standard.
13:30Our standard is whatever the level is for, you know, professionals,
13:34we want to adhere to that standard for ourselves and hold ourselves to that level of training as well.
13:40And so that's how we've selected, you know, people who we think are level-headed, good,
13:44going to make good decisions, make the right decisions and take their responsibility seriously.
13:50Paul, you're, you obviously traveled around the world and many countries do not allow firearms
13:58and you have not owned a firearm yourself, am I correct?
14:01Correct.
14:03And you're limited right now to a BB gun and three slingshots.
14:08Correct.
14:09That being said, what do you think of Mitch's proposal or what their plan is for how they protect their synagogue,
14:18their house of worship?
14:19That sounds like it makes great sense to me.
14:23Can you think of any reason?
14:24I don't want somebody like me whose only target is a beer can.
14:28I mean, I mean, the process that Mitch described,
14:33through which their armed personnel go through makes perfect sense to me.
14:40And the idea of having them available when the members of the congregation are gathered makes perfect sense to me.
14:51I'm guessing.
14:52And to have that fact well known in the community makes a lot of sense to me.
14:58Because that's a deterrent in itself, it seems to me.
15:01There is a synagogue, there's a rabbi that we invited on to have this discussion with us from a local synagogue.
15:09They have a gun-free zone and now they do have some sort of professional armed security,
15:20but they want to keep it a secret, which to me is an error.
15:28I think that's not a good idea.
15:30It's a terrible idea.
15:31I think you want it to be very well known.
15:33Statistically, shooters look for soft targets.
15:37They look to go to places where nobody's going to be shooting back.
15:42If I knew a congregation was armed and I was a bad guy, I would choose a different one.
15:48Yes.
15:49Yeah.
15:51Mitch, you must have had this.
15:54This discussion must have come up in your own congregation before you decided to take this action or with others.
16:00What have you found to be the counter arguments, if any?
16:05Yeah, I think the concern, you know, I would say the concern is that and we've tried to address these concerns.
16:16But the concern is that it's uncontrolled, that you have people that are, you know, cowboys, you know,
16:23vigilantes and, you know, going to be, you know, wild about it, that it's not controlled, that it's very dangerous.
16:32And I think actually one of the other things that I've heard and actually I do think that there's definitely legitimacy to this argument or this issue.
16:41And that is that, you know, the greater the presence, the more firearms you have present,
16:47the greater the chance that you may have an accidental discharge.
16:51Someone's doing something that they shouldn't be doing.
16:54They're fumbling with it, playing with it, and a firearm goes off.
16:58And that is something to be concerned about.
17:01And I think that those of us that take on that responsibility need to recognize it as a real issue.
17:09And we need to make sure that we're adhering to safety protocols religiously to minimize the chance of any type of an accident.
17:18You know, and I think also that includes safe storage, you know, if you're going to keep it at home or, you know,
17:26if you're going to keep it in the synagogue itself to make sure that things are properly secured so that you don't have someone gaining access to a firearm.
17:34So I think that would be a legitimate concern.
17:36And I think that those of us that have undertaken this responsibility recognize that it is a legitimate concern and that you have to take that 100 percent seriously, cannot mess around in that area at all.
17:49So when you – so you have a certain select group of congregants who are armed, am I correct?
17:56Correct.
17:57Now, that being – it makes perfect sense.
18:02Someone has – if someone who is not selected to be part of that group has concealed carry, they still have to get to your house of worship safely and they have to leave.
18:13Do you have a place where people can check their firearms when they come into the synagogue?
18:21No.
18:22Nor would I want to be taking responsibility for other people's firearms.
18:27I have had on occasion someone who – and actually I serve as a greeter and usually out in front of the synagogue during the time that people are arriving, you know, and for about a 40-minute stretch of time right before our services start.
18:47I have had one time when someone did announce that they were carrying, and I was a little surprised, but, you know, just that they would announce it.
18:56You know, I think it's a given that we have to assume that there are people that may be carrying that we don't know about, either, you know, guests or regulars.
19:04There have been times when we've heard that, oh, so-and-so may be carrying or something like that, and we thought, you know, how do we address that?
19:11Ask them.
19:12Yeah, ask them.
19:14That's not hard.
19:15Right.
19:16Yeah, I think the risk that that individual presents to themselves is that, you know, if we – obviously we know who it is within our own group who may be at, you know, under emergency circumstances presenting a firearm.
19:32But if we aren't expecting that, we don't know, you know, or immediately recognize who the person is, and this is what law enforcement would tell you also.
19:40They can become a target.
19:42Absolutely.
19:43You know, they're at risk, and I know that in Israel, for example, you know, we've also done this as well.
19:49You know, they have actually like yellow hats that they will deploy.
19:52They actually just kind of whip it out of their pocket, put on the hat, so they're more easily identifiable as security.
20:01We've also done something where actually there are sashes that we can deploy that you can just very quickly pull the sash out and just put it over your shoulder and identify yourself as security so that you're not, you know, become the target when law enforcement
20:17or somebody else sees you there with a gun, which is a risk.
20:23Again, someone who's going to undertake this responsibility needs to know that they could become a target, you know, by whoever it is, law enforcement or whomever, and need to be able to respond.
20:35So in Israel, there are in the synagogues designated lay people who are armed.
20:44Well, I don't know that anybody is actually a lay person in Israel since they've all gone through military training.
20:51Well, I mean, lay person in the sense that they're not a professional security person.
20:56It's not the same as over here where there are relatively few. What is it, 3%?
21:03So there's a difference in the level of training over there.
21:06Oh, sure. Oh, absolutely.
21:09Mitch, where do you think things are getting better or worse?
21:14Well, certainly right now, things are worse.
21:17And, you know, we actually are in the process of trying to develop a protocol, you know, response, incentive response to the situation that we just saw in Los Angeles, you know, with the kind of angry mob of protesters and how we respond to that, you know, situation.
21:39So we're actually, you know, we're actively discussing, you know, what our response plan is, if we were to encounter that type of an incident.
21:49So the fact that we're doing that, I think, is a sign of the times that we live in.
21:54It's, you know, it's interesting how the law works.
21:57And unfortunately, the law is bastardized by depending upon which municipality is handling it, the nature of the prosecutor.
22:09For example, if you remember the McCloskey couple, husband and wife in St. Louis, Paul, do you remember them?
22:17They were the husband and wife attorneys who were brandishing firearms while an angry, violent mob was going past their home.
22:30And they were – was really strange because they were penalized and charged for brandishing firearms.
22:39However, the pistol that she had had been demilled.
22:45It was inoperable because it had been used in a court case.
22:49And his weapon had no ammunition.
22:53So these people basically stood down a mob with guns that wouldn't be more useful than clubs when they should have been given medals because that took tremendous courage.
23:06It took a lack of risk consciousness.
23:11What a lousy idea to brandish a weapon that doesn't work.
23:16And elicit a response from one that does.
23:19Well, I don't – see, I don't agree with you because as it turned out, the mob steered away from them.
23:26They were right.
23:27Yeah.
23:28Well, they got lucky.
23:29It was – well, it was a risk, but it was a judgment call.
23:32The point is that the – if people believe that firearms are present, the bad guys would usually go to the next house.
23:42That was the point.
23:44Now, I think they took a risk.
23:46They took a risk to themselves.
23:48But the issue is there's always – even if you're defending yourself, there's always a legal risk.
23:55Sure.
23:56There's not getting – there's no getting around it.
23:59I mean we could cite all sorts of cases, though I think in a house of worship, the protection, the legal protection has got to be a little bit more significant because it is a target, and they're in your home so to speak.
24:13Right.
24:14They're in your spiritual home.
24:15Right.
24:16Nobody arrives there with a gun that does not intend to harm.
24:20Correct.
24:25Mick, you pose a very cogent, logical argument for what you're doing.
24:33I personally agree, and it just makes perfect sense.
24:38The obvious question is why would someone not want to do it?
24:41Right.
24:42And I guess I can't answer for everyone.
24:45I've had people that have asked me for themselves personally if this is something they should have for themselves, for their homes.
24:52And there's not a blanket, one-size-fits-all response to the question.
24:59It's a question of if the person has the mindset, will accept the responsibility, will undertake the training that they should have to be able to use it and to be able to make the correct decisions, understand what the rules of engagement are, to know when they can and when they cannot use deadly force.
25:22If someone is not prepared to do that, they're not going to really have the training, they're just going to buy it and they're just going to let it sit there, I don't think they should have it.
25:32I mean, I think that it could be that it's more of a detriment in that situation.
25:38So, I mean, people have asked me, I've said, unless you're going to really take it seriously, you're going to get the training, you're going to understand your legal obligations, I don't think you should do it.
25:48So that's, you know, been what I've told people who've asked me about it.
25:52So, you know, if you had a group of people and none of whom were prepared to do that, but they wanted to outsource it and basically rely entirely on professional security, then okay, fine, you know, so then that's how they've decided they're going to try and, you know, address their security concerns.
26:11Obviously, even if you're defending yourself, if you shoot someone and kill them, and obviously if you're going to pull the trigger or pull the gun, you have to be prepared to do that, no matter what the justification is, you still have to live with it.
26:27Which is in concealed carry courses that I know of, about two thirds of the way through, a lot of the people who are taking the course get nauseous, they get sick to their stomachs, when the impact of what this really means hits them.
26:47But they don't leave the course, because it just shows the necessity of it, and the seriousness of it, this is not a cowboy type of situation, it's deadly serious, and it always comes back to better to be judged by 12 than carried by six, which is sort of a cute way of saying it, but the fact is, it's true.
27:12You know, if so, by the way, what's interesting is statistically from the FBI records, when a good citizen, when a good guy with a gun produces a weapon, when bad guys with gun, when bad guys show up with a gun, and there's a good guy with a gun, and 80 to 90% of the time, the bad guy leaves, no shots are fired, and no one is hurt.
27:41So that is a major issue, and that we unfortunately, we are having a larger number of attacks on synagogues, as well as other houses of worship, and things I guess, we can discuss why at another time, but I think the need makes sense.
28:02Yeah, I think you, you know, what I would say to them, you know, you need to know what are you going to do, if you have an incident, and it doesn't have to be an active shooter incident, but any kind of security incident, whether it's just someone who, you know, has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a gun in their hand, or, you know, someone who has a
28:32gun in their hand shows up, and is inside your facility now, you know, and is doesn't belong there, you know, so how, what's, what's the response, you know? So I think that we need to be taking these things seriously. We
28:48things through. We need to have people who are trained to
28:52respond to these types of situations. Our response, our
28:55approach basically is straightforward, and that is
28:57that the only people that we want inside our building are
29:01people who belong there. If you don't belong there, we don't
29:04want you inside and we're not going to let you in. So if
29:08someone comes to the door and says, you know, can I just use
29:12the bathroom? Can I use the phone? Make a phone call? I'd
29:16really interested in seeing what a Jewish service looks
29:19like, you know, any of these kinds of things. We want to be
29:23able to handle it in a non-threatening but
29:26professional way and basically tell them that, you know, we'd
29:30love to have you and, you know, there's other places to go. But
29:36we can't, we can't let you in. We're not going to let you in.
29:38Usually they'll say like, oh, you know, it's really sorry,
29:41we're in the middle of a private service right now. You know,
29:44why don't you call us during the week and we can be happy to talk
29:46to you and, you know, make an appointment, that kind of thing.
29:49So, you know, deflection. So, but that's because we've, we've
29:54trained this, we have a plan, we have an approach, we know that
29:58we don't allow people in. And that's what we're trained to do.
30:03And we have run scenarios. And we've talked about scenarios.
30:07And we and we and you've talked about things that happen when
30:09you make mistakes. And it's like, oh, something happened.
30:11And so you do a, you know, you do it, you practice, you practice
30:17situations. Yeah, you get in, you get real time, you get real
30:21time, you know, experience and, you know, things that like, oh,
30:24that wasn't, didn't handle that really well. So then you kind of
30:27review it. And I've, you know, sit down with everybody else,
30:29here's what happened. So postmortem and how things went,
30:33or we know where things went well, where things did not go
30:35well, we've done evacuation drills.
30:37By the way, you might choose another, another term other than
30:41postmortem. Exactly. A little bit more optimistic.
30:47Yeah, so we're, you know, again, we're trying to handle this in a
30:53professional way, we consult with professionals, to learn
30:57from them, and have them review what we do, when we have
31:01questions, we consult with them, we look to them for guidance.
31:04And so we're trying to build a multi layered professional
31:10security team that can help keep everyone safe.
31:16That's makes perfect sense to me. Paul, do you have any comment
31:19on this?
31:21I just have one question. And that's to you. How do you handle
31:25things like that at the lodge, at your meeting?
31:28That's interesting. Various members do carry. And we have a
31:36rough idea who they are. And we know that anybody who does
31:39carry is thoroughly well trained. There is nobody that
31:44carries that is not. So Masonic Lodges, people should go
31:51someplace else. It's I mean, because then, you know, that's
31:58that's how we handle it. It's don't ask, don't tell, but we
32:02know. And as far as I know, there's never been an incident
32:08or an accident at all in any lodges. And I guess, as Mark
32:13Twain put it, a well armed society is a polite society. On
32:23that note, I would like to say thank you, Mitch. Thank you,
32:28Paul.
32:28Very nice to meet you.
32:30Well, you'll be meeting, you'll be meeting Mitch again. Good.
32:34And everybody stay safe. Be well and God bless.