Ex-French first lady Carla Bruni-Sarkozy charged with witness tampering in husband's campaign case
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00:00It's the 2007 French presidential race that's drawing attention.
00:06What with now news that former first lady, ex-supermodel Carla Bruni faces potential
00:13witness tampering charges.
00:16This after a star witness in the case turned, recounted his evidence.
00:23Magistrates probing suspicions that late Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi bankrolled part of
00:29Nicolas Sarkozy's successful 2007 run through middleman Ziad Takedine.
00:35More on that story with Delana D'Souza.
00:42She's often spotted on red carpets around France and Europe.
00:46And now Carla Bruni Sarkozy finds herself in the crosshairs of the French legal system.
00:52The supermodel turned singer became France's first lady in 2008 after marrying Nicolas
00:57Sarkozy, who was president at the time.
01:00Born in Italy but raised in France, the 56-year-old is an heir to Italian rubber manufacturer
01:05SIAT.
01:06On Tuesday, Bruni Sarkozy was handed preliminary charges for witness tampering.
01:12The case is part of an ongoing investigation into former president Sarkozy.
01:16Courts are looking into an operation dubbed Save Sarko, which includes a retracted statement
01:22by Ziad Takedine.
01:24The Franco-Lebanese businessman, who now lives in Lebanon since a separate conviction in
01:28France, had initially claimed to have handed over Libyan funds to Sarkozy's 2007 campaign.
01:34Bruni Sarkozy is suspected of acting as an intermediary in 2020 between the former president
01:40and a friend in the celebrity press, who allegedly orchestrated Takedine withdrawing his statement
01:45on camera.
01:47France's former first lady has now been placed under judicial supervision.
01:52Carla Bruni Sarkozy has been forbidden from contacting all those involved in the case,
01:57except her husband.
02:01And with us, we're joined by attorney William Jullier.
02:06Let's get to Carla Bruni in a moment.
02:07But first, there's this star witness, Ziad Takedine.
02:11He was a little bit accused of being one of the bag men in this case.
02:17But he was, he'd certainly, he turned state's evidence and then recanted it.
02:22Yeah, he's been in the sunlight for more than 10 years now.
02:29The original case connected to this one is the case about the financing of the presidential
02:35campaign.
02:36And that goes back to an investigation opened in 2013, I think.
02:40And Ziad Takedine was one of the main guys involved, but not only involved, but involving
02:47other people.
02:48And he starts to spill the beans.
02:50And then in 2020, he recants.
02:52Yeah, that's it.
02:53So.
02:54And then enter Carla Bruni.
02:55Yeah, that's it.
02:56So 2013, he's, he's indicted and he's, he's targeted by the investigations.
03:03And he says, yes, maybe I did some stuff, but I handed over 5 million or something like
03:08that in cash to Nicolas Sarkozy directly or to.
03:14Strictly illegal under campaign finance rules in France.
03:17Absolutely.
03:18And then I think he varied quite a lot.
03:21But then in 2020, indeed, he does this first, I think, interview for BFM and it comes out
03:29in Paris match or something like that.
03:31And I think that after that, he also, because it does not seem to had had so much effect,
03:39then he sends a notarized letter to the investigating judges to confirm that he is not maintaining
03:47his accusations about against Nicolas Sarkozy.
03:51And then when an investigation is started, and this is the Carla Bruni Sarkozy case we're
03:56discussing now, I think judges go to Lebanon to interview him because he has been in the
04:03meantime sentenced to five years in jail in France in the Karachi case, I think.
04:09So he's on the run and he's hiding in Lebanon.
04:12So the magistrates go there to interview him.
04:15And I think that at one point, then he comes back to his initial position and says, no,
04:21actually, what I said in the beginning is true.
04:24So now he is maintaining again, and they reportedly found hard evidence with these
04:28text messages, exchanges and what looks a lot like a burner phone.
04:33That is to say, Carla Bruni goes out and asks, first off, where can I get a phone that's
04:38not been traced?
04:39Yeah, that's it.
04:42With caution, of course, because this is an allegation.
04:45And I don't have access to the case.
04:47So I mean, I'm just reading what, you know, your investigation colleagues have brought
04:54to light.
04:55And I do assume that they have viewed some of the bundled documents.
05:01But yes, I mean, it seems that the investigators have discovered some technical hard evidence,
05:10pieces of evidence amongst which the number of a burner phone that was associated to Carla
05:19Bruni's Apple account or something like that.
05:22And then from this, they traced text messages, dates of contacts, dates of phone calls between
05:29this phone and people involved during the expedition to Lebanon, where apparently this
05:41interview was carried out.
05:43You rightly point out, William, that what we're going on right now is what investigative
05:49journalists from Mediapart and Le Monde have so far reported.
05:55We haven't seen more.
05:56Based on what you've seen, can she plead ignorance?
06:04What we know is that whatever she pleaded only partially went through because she was
06:13indicted for some of the charges.
06:18And for one other charge, she was not indicted.
06:22She was placed under what we call le statut témoin assisté, which is assisted witness.
06:28That means that she's still considered a witness, but with access to the case.
06:32But on some other charges, she was indicted, meaning that the investigating judges considered
06:39that there was sufficient pieces of evidence.
06:41We don't have indictments in France, right?
06:43It's placed under a formal investigation.
06:45Yeah, that's it.
06:46It's la mise en examen, which is...
06:49Formal investigation.
06:50Yeah, exactly.
06:51So can an investigating judge on the face of investigations carried out before by the
06:56police consider that there are sufficient pieces of evidence to charge you?
07:02And then once you are charged, you have access to the case.
07:06You can request...
07:07So from what you're saying, she's more than just peripheral to this story.
07:11It seems...
07:12This story being the 2007 campaign and the connecting the dots between Muammar Gaddafi
07:17and Nicolas Sarkozy.
07:18No.
07:19No.
07:20She's not involved in that.
07:21She's involved in this sequence when, where...
07:25The star witness changes.
07:26Where people go to Lebanon and apparently against money or promises of money, obtain
07:35that this Mr Takiedine will make a change in his statements and retrieve his accusations
07:43against Nicolas Sarkozy.
07:45And Carla Bruni Sarkozy would be in the middle between her husband and this Mimi Marchand
07:50lady, who apparently is a friend of hers.
07:52All right.
07:53William Julliet, let's talk politics here for a second.
07:58Nicolas Sarkozy faces with...
08:01You've just described it.
08:02Not one, but several cases.
08:04I think there's at least four where he's under formal investigation, where he's actually
08:07facing trial.
08:08Oh, and he's...
08:09More than that.
08:10He's been tried twice at least.
08:12And he's appealed against one.
08:13There were appeals.
08:14And he's got a long string of trials.
08:17Why were the Sarkozy couple among the invitees when Joe Biden was here for a state dinner
08:25just a couple of weeks ago in Paris?
08:27I can't answer that question.
08:29I don't know.
08:32What is your reaction when you saw those images there of the, you know, the Sarkozy's continue
08:37to be welcomed to the presidential palace?
08:40Yeah, Nicolas Sarkozy for the moment has not...
08:44The French don't really see this as a problem.
08:46They see it as old history or...
08:48I don't know.
08:50I think that he remains very popular.
08:57Quite a bunch of people who are in politics have faced judicial issues.
09:03Some have been sentenced without any possibility to appeal anymore.
09:10I think Alain Juppé, for example, was sentenced and then became mayor of Bordeaux again.
09:18So I mean, it is also possible to continue to exist politically if you have been sentenced.
09:24And if you have been sentenced, finally, I don't think this is the case for Nicolas Sarkozy.
09:32He's still fighting the sentences that were passed against him and the guilty sentences
09:37passed against him.
09:39So as it is, if you go by the rule of law, he is still considered non-guilty on the final
09:47conclusion.
09:48So I guess that maybe he's going with that.
09:52We'll see how far it can go.
09:55And yeah, I'm not the one who decided who was going to be invited.
10:00But yes, and I think she's maybe still also very popular with her singing and her good
10:07looks.
10:08So maybe for the moment it works.
10:10We'll see.
10:11Carla Bruni, innocent till proven guilty.
10:13Many thanks.
10:14That's how it is.
10:15William Jullier.
10:16Stay with us.
10:17There's much more to come.
10:18More news plus today's business.
10:19And in sports, we'll raise the curtain on England versus the Netherlands, second semifinal
10:25at Euro 2024.