Nathalie Tocci and Thierry Arnaud discuss the latest from this week’s G7 meeting in Italy. Actress Julia Louis-Dreyfus and director Daina O. Pusić explore grief and love in their film “Tuesday.” Journalist Nicholas Kristof talks about his new memoir “Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life” and how he remains hopeful through his reporting on life’s darkest moments.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour and Company.
00:06Here's what's coming up.
00:09Riding high on her election win, Italy's populist Prime Minister, Giorgia Maloney, welcomes
00:15the world's most powerful leaders to Puglia.
00:18We look at Europe at a turning point, then.
00:21I don't know what I am without you, who I am without you.
00:27I don't know what the world is without you in it.
00:32The queen of comedy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, gets serious in her new movie, Tuesday.
00:37The actress and the film's director join me.
00:40Plus...
00:41Side by side with the worst of humanity, Walter, you invariably find the very best.
00:45Chasing hope, journalist Nicholas Kristof tells Walter Isaacson how he finds light in
00:51the world's darkest corners.
00:57Amanpour and Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood
01:18and Leslie Williams, Candice King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss,
01:25Mark J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum,
01:34Ku and Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:41Hope Zuckerberg, additional support provided by these funders, and by contributions to
01:48your PBS station from viewers like you.
01:51Thank you.
01:54Welcome to the program, everyone.
01:55I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
01:57Today in Italy, G7 leaders have agreed to loan Kiev about $50 billion backed by the
02:04profits from Russia's frozen investments.
02:07It's been a banner week for the summit host, Italy's Prime Minister, Giorgia Maloney.
02:12Fresh off a big win in the European elections, the far-right leader has welcomed her G7 peers
02:17to Puglia.
02:18But that's not all.
02:20Maloney has also invited a slew of other power players, like Ukraine's President, Volodymyr
02:24Zelensky, India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, and South Africa's Cyril Ramaphosa.
02:30An emboldened Maloney stands in stark contrast to her counterparts, like France's Emmanuel
02:36Macron and Germany's Olaf Scholz, who are on very shaky ground after their parties took
02:41a beating from the far-right this weekend.
02:44Nonetheless, there are important issues to hash out.
02:48And top of the agenda is, of course, Ukraine and Gaza.
02:51I'm joined by Nathalie Tocchi, political scientist and former advisor to the EU's foreign policy
02:56chief, along with Thierry Arnault, senior international correspondent for the French
03:01channel BFM TV.
03:04Welcome to both of you.
03:05Thanks for being with us.
03:07Nathalie, can I start with you first?
03:10Because in Italy, at the G7, they actually did agree to make this loan to Kiev based
03:16on Russian frozen assets.
03:18Now, Russia is furious.
03:20It says there'll be painful retaliatory measures.
03:23How significant is this moment for Ukraine, Nathalie?
03:27Well, I mean, of course, Christiane, this agreement had been in the pipeline for quite
03:33some time, and the U.S. had been pushing for it for quite some time.
03:38It was actually the European countries that had been resisting.
03:42And essentially, the reason why it's mainly the Europeans that have been caving in the
03:50sense of, you know, contributing to providing the guarantee to the guarantee, because, of
03:57course, the big question really is, you know, what if the guarantee that is provided by
04:01those Russian assets were to somehow no longer be available, for instance, because of a quote
04:08unquote peace agreement, then who would actually, you know, guarantee that guarantee?
04:13And for a long time, there was, you know, haggling over this point.
04:17It seems to me that it's mainly been the Europeans that have been backtracking on some
04:22of their resistance.
04:23And I actually think that the reason why this is happening is because of a growing fear
04:29that if the agreement is not reached now, then it could be a lot harder to reach in a
04:34few months' time, especially if the elections in the United States were to see a return
04:39of Donald Trump to the White House.
04:41So in a sense, you know, cash in whatever agreement you can get in now, because the
04:46future may actually be far more troubled.
04:48So I think, you know, although, of course, it's an extremely positive development that
04:52this agreement has been reached, and as I said, it has been in the pipeline really for
04:56quite perhaps for a little bit too long, it's been, you know, a long time in the making.
05:01But the reason why it actually ended up in this final squeeze is because of a fear that
05:06in future things could get far nastier.
05:08Well, let me turn to you, Thierry Arnault, because in France, for instance, you have
05:12this far-right surge.
05:14Would a Prime Minister Bardella or a President Le Pen, would they, you know, put the brakes
05:22on this kind of thing?
05:23Because as you know, many of the far-right leaders, including Le Pen and others, have
05:27been criticised for their closer links to Vladimir Putin.
05:34They have indeed.
05:35The fact of the matter is, over the past few weeks and months, their position has moved
05:39towards a more Ukraine-friendly attitude.
05:43They were basically opposing any kind of aid, whether military or financial, for Ukraine
05:49initially, but they've come a long way since then.
05:52And as much as they have disapproved the president's latest moves, for example, providing fighter
05:59jets to Ukraine, as he's promised to do, and training the pilots as well, obviously, by
06:03the end of the year.
06:05He has also talked about deploying French military instructors in Ukraine.
06:11The way he would like to do it would be as part of a European coalition.
06:15But on those two specific aspects, obviously, neither Marine Le Pen or Jordan Bardella would
06:22approve of that and would sign off on it.
06:25But when it comes to financially supporting Ukraine or providing some kind of military
06:30equipment, they are now much more open to this than they were only a few weeks ago.
06:37I want to come back to more on Macron and his political issues right now.
06:41But first, I want to ask, in relation to Georgia Maloney, Natalie, some of the editorials
06:48have been saying that this G7 is six lame ducks and Georgia Maloney.
06:54In other words, as we know, many of the leaders there took a real drubbing.
07:01Do you agree with that image and that she now is really cemented as the solid European
07:07leader?
07:11Well, I mean, it's clear that out of those leaders, she is the one that came out electorally
07:17strengthened.
07:18So that is, I think, a fact.
07:21I actually, though, think that this narrative is overblown.
07:25Firstly, I think that Italy is presiding this G7 in extremely complicated times.
07:32It's actually a G7 that, with the exception of this one agreement on the Russian frozen
07:38assets, actually has no real deliverables.
07:41And it has no real deliverables precisely because, in general, the situation within
07:47the West has weakened really quite substantially.
07:50When it comes to Maloney herself, I also think that although over the last few months, and
07:56it's not just with the election, it's really been a narrative building up over the last
08:01few months of Maloney being the queenmaker in Europe and what is her position vis-a-vis
08:07Ursula von der Leyen, we may be reaching the end of that story.
08:12And what I mean by this is that there comes a point where you kind of need to make a choice,
08:17right?
08:18And there's only so long that you can play this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde game, which has
08:22been going on for the last year and a half, frankly speaking, of being very hard line
08:27domestically and appearing to be rather malleable on foreign policy issues.
08:32There will come a point, and especially when it comes to the decisions concerning the future
08:36cohort of European leaders, that Maloney will have to choose whether to actually make the
08:43definitive move towards moderation and essentially end up being, given the electoral results
08:49at European level, the small fish, still the small fish in a big pond, or actually return
08:56to what probably her real beliefs and quote unquote values are and move to the right,
09:03especially looking ahead at what may be happening in France soon.
09:07Right.
09:07Well, there she is in Italy, domestically.
09:10Her politics are much different, as you said, to her foreign policy, and they are much more
09:16right wing on all the social issues and other such issues.
09:19So, Thierry Arnault, your president, Macron, is at this G7 meeting.
09:25I mean, along with Olaf Schultz, of course, but Macron's thrown down the gauntlet and has
09:32decided to go all in on a big gamble to make the French decide whether they really want the far
09:38right.
09:40How is it being taken?
09:42How are the French looking at it?
09:43What are you all seeing when you talk to people and interview people and report on this?
09:49Well, with a lot of puzzlement and astonishment as to what the president has decided to do.
09:55And most of the people you talk to do not necessarily understand why he has come to
10:01this decision.
10:01So he has some explaining to do, which he started doing yesterday by holding a France
10:07conference.
10:07And essentially, I think he did it for two reasons.
10:10The first one is who he is.
10:12He is a man with a lot of pride.
10:14He hates losing.
10:16He hates being in a corner.
10:18And when he finds himself in a situation where he holds very few strong cards, instead of
10:25doing the reasonable thing, which would be folding, he's going to go all in, which is
10:31exactly what he has done.
10:32And it's also his assessment of the current political situation.
10:37First of all, the loss is hard to overstate, I mean, how bad it is.
10:42And the conclusion he has drawn is that if not now, he would have had to do it anyway
10:47within the next few weeks or month.
10:49He was expecting, for example, a motion of no confidence to be adopted in parliament
10:54by the fall over the next budget.
10:56And in that particular case, the government would have had to resign and he would have
11:01had to call this election.
11:02So might as well doing now out of his own initiative, as opposed to having to play defense
11:08in a few months' time.
11:09That's interesting.
11:10The political gamble he's making now is this one.
11:17He thinks that, in essence, a parliamentary election is very different from the European
11:24election.
11:25The defeat he has been submitted to is, in his opinion, first and foremost, the expression
11:32of a lot of anger.
11:34But it's one thing to be very angry and to express it by supporting the far right.
11:38It's quite different to vote for a parliament which is going to hand over power to Marine
11:43Le Pen and Jordan Bardella.
11:45And in his opinion, the French are not ready to go that far yet.
11:51It's a bet that governing parties have been making for the past 20 years.
11:56And if you look at what's been happening for 20 years, it's that each time so far they
12:00have won that bet.
12:01But the margin by which they have won is getting narrower and narrower.
12:06And maybe it's going to disappear over the next few weeks.
12:08I was going to ask you that because there's one sort of, I mean, the leader of the traditional
12:14right-wing party, Les Républicains, he has called for an alliance with the Le Penistas.
12:22And he has had a lot of pushback from within his own traditional party.
12:26Let's not forget it's the party of Charles de Gaulle who actually fought to rid France
12:32of the fascists and their inheritors.
12:35Are you surprised that this kind of red line between the regular parties and the far right
12:43has disappeared?
12:45No, because you will always find people, and Eric Ciotti, the leader of this particular
12:49party is one of them, that think that the only way to win now, the only way for them
12:54to get back to power is through that alliance.
12:57So it's, you know, it goes against the history of the party.
13:02It goes against the nature of its policies in many ways.
13:06But, you know, there are people like him who think that they want to run the country.
13:10They want to have a seat in the government.
13:12And the only way to do this now is to align with Marine Le Pen.
13:16You know, when you look at these results of the European election, they are really spectacular
13:21because, you know, the Rassemblement National, their party, came ahead in 93% of French cities,
13:30of all French cities, big and small.
13:33If you look at all the social classes, if you look at all the age groups, she's ahead
13:39almost everywhere now, even where she used to be traditionally quite weak.
13:46So the wave of that election in her favor has been very strong.
13:54And it's a momentum that's going to be very hard to stop before the next election.
13:59Gosh, yeah, you seem to have a pessimistic view of how it's going to turn out.
14:04So we'll see.
14:05But obviously, these leaders who are at the G7, Natalie, also have another raging war
14:11on their hands, and that is between Israel and Hamas and the essential flattening of
14:15Gaza and the terrible humanitarian crisis, plus the fact that there are still Israeli
14:21hostages inside Gaza.
14:24Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:29having come back from inconclusive ceasefire talks in the region.
14:36And every day they're faced with pictures like the one I'm going to put up.
14:40And it's really awful.
14:42Images of suffering which are horrific.
14:44This is a Palestinian child in Gaza.
14:46His name is Amjad Kanu.
14:48He's three years old.
14:49He weighs five kilos, and he's suffering from severe malnutrition.
14:54It's the kind of thing I've seen when I've covered famine countries.
15:01The UN says almost 3,000 children have been cut off from treatment for moderate and severe
15:06acute malnutrition in southern Gaza.
15:08They're at risk of dying in front of their families.
15:11So I'm saying all this because clearly that is what the leaders also are faced with.
15:16How are they going to alleviate this humanitarian condition while also trying to bring about
15:22a ceasefire and end the actual war?
15:25Well, you know, Christian, I think the tragedy of this moment is that whereas diplomacy over
15:32the last eight months, I mean, obviously failed, but it was in a sense trying at least to get
15:39to a deal, for instance, on the hostage release and a ceasefire.
15:45Now that that plan is in theory there, and of course it has been endorsed by the UN Security
15:50Council, what the G7 will do is, I presume, sign up to that very plan.
15:56But in a sense, we're in this odd situation in which there is a plan that presumably is
16:01Israel's plan.
16:03Hamas has kind of conditionally accepted it so long as there are certain clarifications
16:07made.
16:08But Israel itself doesn't actually seem to be committed to presumably what its own plan
16:14is.
16:15And so in a sense, we're back to a pre-7th of October situation in which diplomacy on
16:24the, quote unquote, Middle East peace process for years, in fact, for decades, it became
16:30in a sense an excuse for things on the ground to deteriorate even further.
16:35And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again, but of course, in
16:39a far more dramatic and in humanitarian terms, catastrophic situation in which in a sense
16:46leaders can all be happy.
16:47There's a plan and we all sign up to it.
16:49But then nothing really happens, right?
16:51And no one really actually makes Israel comply to what presumably its own plan is.
16:57Natalie, of course, the U.S. has put the burden completely on Hamas and they've demanded
17:02that Hamas come up and say yes to this.
17:04But you're right.
17:05Israel publicly has not endorsed this peace plan.
17:08Can I ask a final question to you, Arnaud?
17:10I mean, you're watching from there.
17:12This G7 is somewhat different.
17:15Maloney has invited a whole slew of people from, you know, powerful presidents from Latin
17:20America, India, you know, prime minister, South Africa, et cetera.
17:25They're trying to get the global south on board, particularly to buy into their narrative
17:31of what's happening in Ukraine.
17:33How do you see that developing on Thierry?
17:38I think it's going to be very hard work.
17:40I don't know about you, Christian, but I cannot recall any G7 summit in recent memory in which
17:47the French president, the German chancellor, the British prime minister found themselves
17:53in such a weak political situation that it was hard to imagine that their pressure would
18:00be able to carry a lot of weight vis-à-vis those representatives of the global south.
18:07So I think it's essential that they try, because on the other side of the equation,
18:12you have obviously China, together with Russia, pushing extremely hard to convince them to
18:21align their world views to that of Beijing and Moscow.
18:25So there has to be an argument.
18:28There has to be, beyond this invitation, you know, a world view presented to these leaders
18:34that makes sense to them as well.
18:37So I think it's very important that they are invited.
18:39It's very important that they discuss this very difficult world situation with those
18:45Western leaders specifically.
18:48But because of the situation they're in today, I think, again, what they have to say will
18:55unfortunately carry a lot less weight than it would have maybe a couple of years ago.
19:00And from your perspective, Nathalie, as somebody who used to advise the EU foreign policy
19:06establishment?
19:07Well, you know, I mean, if you take the G7 of two years ago, the German presidency G7,
19:13that was actually the first time.
19:15So the war had already started in Ukraine, and we realized that we had a problem with
19:19the global south.
19:19And there was a kind of real effort being made.
19:22You know, it was the first time that South Africa and Senegal and Indonesia and India
19:26were invited.
19:28And at that time, of course, we realized that the global south was not quite totally aligned
19:34with us, but we were still with the quote unquote global majority.
19:38I mean, just think about votes in the UN General Assembly on Ukraine.
19:42The problem is that making that effort now with war in the Middle East, in which our
19:48reputation and credibility in that global south has collapsed, makes it a far harder
19:56challenge.
19:57OK, it's been really great talking to you, Nathalie Tocci, Thierry Arnault.
20:01Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
20:04Now, Russia has formally sent an espionage case against the jailed American Wall Street
20:09Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich to court.
20:12He's been detained in Moscow since March of last year.
20:16In response, today, the Wall Street Journal said, Evan Gershkovich is facing a false and
20:21baseless charge.
20:22Evan is a journalist.
20:23The Russian regime's smearing of Evan is repugnant, disgusting, and based on calculated
20:29and transparent lies.
20:31We continue to demand his immediate release.
20:33As, of course, does the journalistic community.
20:36Now, another noteworthy meeting is happening inside Italy tomorrow, and this one is in
20:42Vatican City.
20:43The Pope, who is a fan of cracking jokes, is hosting some of the world's best comedians.
20:49The church says it's in support of comedy contributing to a more empathetic world.
20:54Whoopi Goldberg, Stephen Colbert, Chris Rock, Conan O'Brien, they'll all be there, along
21:00with my next guest, one of the queens of comedy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
21:04She's given us lots of laughs in Seinfeld and Veep, but her new movie, Tuesday, is much
21:10more serious.
21:11The story centers on a mother, played by Louis-Dreyfus, and her daughter, Tuesday, who is dying.
21:18And when the mother struggles to accept this reality, death itself appears in the form
21:23of a giant parrot and begins pecking her towards acceptance.
21:28Here's a clip from the trailer.
21:58Every life ends.
22:03The Magical Realist Fable is written and directed by Dinah Opusich, who joined Julia
22:08to explain how this strangest of concepts helped them reach a universal truth.
22:14Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Dinah Opusich, welcome to the program.
22:19Thank you for having us both.
22:21Thank you so much.
22:22It's an extraordinary film.
22:24It's very weird, at least to start off.
22:26But I just want to first start by asking you, Julia, I guess people do typecast you
22:31a little bit with the comedy thing, but you've done, you know, clearly a number of films
22:36that aren't comedy.
22:38And I wondered, what about this one attracted you?
22:41Well, what attracted me to this role was the script, of course.
22:48But the script, in a very fantasy, magical, realism kind of way, explores issues of grief,
23:00death, dying, denial, acceptance, in addition to really exploring the bond between parent
23:08and child.
23:09All of those themes were, of course, they're very fundamental.
23:13And they really appealed to me to explore from a storytelling point of view.
23:20And it should be noted that one of the main stars, anyway, is a CGI giant morphing parrot.
23:28I mean, the two of you, how did you bond over this?
23:33Because it could have gone horribly wrong or it could have been, as it is, really interesting.
23:38Well, Dinah and I met over Zoom a number of times to talk in depth about the script.
23:46And Dinah is obviously a very emotionally intelligent person and a true artist in every
23:54sense of the word.
23:56And really, it was quite clear to me—and she can speak more to this—that her desire,
24:02in terms of the animated parrot, as it were, was to make this as beautiful and otherworldly
24:13and rooted in reality in such a way so that it would propel the story forward and give
24:20it proper sort of profundity.
24:23So, Dinah, tell me about it, because it's kind of an unusual vehicle.
24:27The parrot is death, the Grim Reaper.
24:33Well, I really—I designed death the way that I did, really, through a sort of a process
24:41of deduction.
24:42I knew what the character was like.
24:43I knew what he needed to do in the film.
24:46I knew he needed to talk, which parrots are famous for, and I knew he needed to sing and
24:52dance and tell jokes.
24:54I felt also that his personality was sort of birdlike.
24:57He is kind of cuddly and friendly in one moment, and then, at the turn of the head,
25:02is frightening and foreign and dangerous.
25:06And I also felt that I needed to not just make him a parrot, but also make him a monster
25:14to push the reality of what he was, because I felt that that would be more believable
25:20in the visual effects.
25:21Yeah, that's really interesting to hear you describe that.
25:24And you talk about using that vehicle, that parrot, to sort of push off certain realities
25:29and not play around, but essentially inhabit this reality, which turns out, Julia, your
25:36character, the mother, is trying to delay, deny the obvious, which is that your daughter,
25:42Tuesday, is dying and has an incurable disease.
25:46And I want to play just this clip, which is from the so-called bathroom scene, where you're
25:52essentially telling her, you know, to get a grip, weirdly.
25:56Let's just play it.
25:58It's the reality of the situation, isn't it?
26:02This is what parents do.
26:03They do what they have to do, OK?
26:06And it's good to be honest about that.
26:10So you need to look reality in the eye instead of just getting angry at me about it.
26:16Are you being serious right now?
26:18Gosh, the actress who plays Tuesday is just so phenomenal.
26:23I mean, that's exactly the best line, because there you are telling her to get a grip and
26:29she's the one dying.
26:30Just, Julia, put that into context, because you've spun a whole load of lies just to get
26:35out of the house so that you don't have to confront your dying daughter.
26:40Yes, exactly.
26:41I would say that the dysfunction that we sort of begin the film with is that my daughter
26:50in the film is really the parent to me.
26:53And she's — and I — my character is in such pain and suffering that she is — refuses
27:05to face the reality that her daughter is in.
27:09And so she's making one decision after another that doesn't seem, on its face, is not — these
27:17are not nurturing decisions.
27:20And — which includes not working.
27:24She's overcome with depression.
27:26She's selling off everything that's in their house to make ends meet.
27:32Nothing makes real, rational sense.
27:35But I have to say, as someone who played the character, I certainly understand where she's
27:40coming from.
27:41And by the end of the film, the tables will have turned in the sense that my character,
27:50Zora, realizes that it's time for her to parent her child in the way that's necessary
27:58and critical.
27:59Well, I was going to do it later, but since you bring it up, I'm going to play this later
28:03clip, which is about how you are, in fact, realizing what exactly is going on and the
28:09dynamic.
28:10Here's this clip.
28:14I don't know what I am without you, who I am without you.
28:21I don't know what the world is without you in it.
28:26I have absolutely no idea.
28:31And because of that, I think — I don't know, I was scared.
28:36I was — I was fighting for my own life.
28:41But I love you so much more than me.
28:49And this is your life.
28:52And from now on, we're going to do what's best for you.
29:04It's really, really, really powerful, and it's almost like you are finally being the
29:08adult, giving her the permission to be the child and to finish her journey, which you
29:13will do together.
29:14Exactly.
29:15That's exactly right.
29:16Yeah.
29:17But what's so fascinating to me, too, about this film is that everything that — in this
29:25fantastical reality that Dinah has so brilliantly created, it's a very believable scenario,
29:31the lengths to which this mother, Zora, will go to keep her child from harm, from death.
29:41And it's a fantastical journey that makes sense, I think, in so many ways on an emotional
29:47and psychological level.
29:48Dinah, I want to ask you, did you write this as well?
29:52And what about your experience or where you grow up or — I mean, I know your country
29:58was caught up in the Balkan Wars.
29:59I don't know.
30:00But what about death and grief and parenthood were you trying to explore as well?
30:06I did.
30:07I did write it as well.
30:11I was — if I were to describe this film, I would say it's an accumulation of my thoughts
30:17and feelings in life up until this point, really.
30:21And making this film is to process everything that's happened so far, in a way.
30:27I wanted to explore the familial relationship, which I have done as well in my short films
30:34before, between mother and daughter, and the intensity with which that type of love comes.
30:43That intensity sometimes brings not just love, but in a way also hate, tension, because when
30:50feelings run high to that extent in such an extreme way, tenderness and love run hand
30:59in hand almost with violence and misunderstanding.
31:05So this is a type of real messy love and relationship that I was really interested in exploring,
31:15just because of my own life and my own experiences.
31:18And in terms of my relationship with death, you know, I feel and I hope that that's what
31:26the film speaks to and that the audience feels that when they watch the film, that really,
31:37if we are — you know, life has its meaning and it gains its weight and wonder and meaning
31:43because of the fact that it has an expiration date.
31:46And if we were to live our life understanding death and acknowledging it,
31:51then we're more likely to live a fuller and happier life.
31:55You know, what makes sense is that very few people talk about death.
31:58I mean, as you, Julia, I think I've heard you say, we're all going to die.
32:01Everybody is going to die.
32:03Everybody we know is going to die.
32:05And we have to talk about it and understand it.
32:08And I thought there was — the part of the film that makes death sort of less scary, maybe,
32:15is, again, the parrot, where there's a serious comedy bit there,
32:20where you decide you're going to eat the parrot, Julia, as the mother, and try to kill death.
32:28Yeah, exactly.
32:29That's what I do.
32:30That's my maternal instinct coming out.
32:35I fight death to death.
32:39And when that doesn't work, I consume him.
32:44You do, indeed.
32:45And the vomiting him up again, I mean, the whole thing, that is pretty inspired.
32:50I mean, it's very funny.
32:51It's very meaningful.
32:53It's very dramatic.
32:54And, you know, it's very clear.
32:56I also thought what was really interesting is the parrot is like the vehicle — the dying
33:03daughter and death are in a bond, in a complicit bond, to try to bring you along as the mother,
33:10Julia.
33:11Exactly, which is what is such a remarkable sort of turn of events in the storytelling
33:20of this film.
33:22They're trying to — everybody's trying to negotiate with one another.
33:29Tuesday's trying to negotiate with death, to negotiate with her mother, to — you know,
33:34I mean, it is a masterclass in — I don't know what the word
33:41I would use for, but it is — it's so outrageous.
33:45It's marvelous.
33:47And it, to me, makes complete and utter sense.
33:51And I loved everything about making this film with Dinah, I have to say.
33:58It's been a complete joy.
33:59Let me just ask you also about what's going gangbusters for you, and that is your podcast,
34:04Wiser Than Me.
34:06What are you getting out of that?
34:08One thing that's vastly surprised me is the reaction.
34:12I think — you know, I felt a need to have these conversations personally, and then it
34:17turns out many millions of people feel the need, as well, to hear these conversations.
34:23And so I'm honored to be talking to these women, to — sitting at the feet of these
34:32women, to glean their wisdom from what I see as the — sort of the front lines of
34:37life.
34:38Women often, as they age, become less visible.
34:42And that's a tremendous — well, that's a tremendous missed opportunity for the rest
34:48of the universe, because women in particular have an enormous amount of wisdom, I think,
34:54perhaps even more than the other gender.
34:58So —
34:59I'm sure all three women here would agree.
35:01But at any rate, I — yes, exactly.
35:04But anyway, yeah, I'm very happy with how it's been received, for sure.
35:08And what about comedy?
35:09Obviously, you are burnt into everybody's minds with Seinfeld, with Veep.
35:15Any more — what is it that you like about comedy?
35:17Because you're obviously taking to this other stuff, like a duck to water.
35:21I mean, you know, you're not typecast, but you are so good at the other, as well.
35:25What do you like about it?
35:28Well, what's not to like?
35:29I mean, there's — it's so — it's such an elevated experience to hear people laugh.
35:35And I — it's a blessing, really.
35:41And so — and it's something I've sort of, in my career, have sort of fallen into.
35:48These are the — most of the jobs I've gotten in my career have been comedic.
35:53So, I love doing comedy.
35:56But having said that, I love doing drama.
35:59And they're related on so — in so many ways.
36:02And I'm — what I really like is trying new things and trying — and sinking my teeth
36:09into material that's unfamiliar and challenging and artistically satisfying.
36:18So that's what I'm looking for.
36:21I don't want to do anything derivative.
36:23And certainly, this film is not that.
36:25No, it's not.
36:26And I just — talking about new things, I hear that you have been selected or invited
36:33as a number of prominent comedians going to visit the pope.
36:36What do you think you'll — what do you think he wants to know?
36:40You know what?
36:41Honestly, I have no idea.
36:44I have no idea what this is going to be like.
36:47And if you know, tell me.
36:49Because I don't — but, you know, the pope wants to meet.
36:54I'm like, sure.
36:56Let's see — let's see what this is going to be about.
36:59Yeah.
36:59I'm interested.
37:00Yeah.
37:01Well, there's a drama in there somewhere.
37:03And Dina Opusich, finally, what's next on your agenda?
37:07I mean, this was — you know, this was a particular drama.
37:11What — what's next?
37:13Make another one.
37:14OK.
37:15Hopefully, if they let me.
37:16All right.
37:18Well, that's a good way to end.
37:19Dina Opusich, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, thank you so much indeed.
37:22Thank you.
37:23Thank you.
37:25And we had that conversation earlier this week, just ahead of when the film comes out,
37:28which is tomorrow.
37:30We turn next to someone who spent his career reporting on death and darkness around the
37:34world.
37:35And yet, in his new memoir, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof says he is chasing
37:40hope.
37:41He speaks to Walter Isaacson about that.
37:44Thank you, Krishan.
37:45And Nick Kristof, welcome back to the show.
37:48Great to be with you.
37:49For 40 years, you've been covering everything from sex trafficking to child health issues
37:56and genocide.
37:57And yet, you got this new memoir out and you say, chasing hope.
38:01What do you mean by chasing hope?
38:04So, you know, people misinterpret it as, you know, a kind of, you know, it's a kind of
38:10hope.
38:11So, you know, people meet me for the first time because I've been covering all these
38:15grim topics.
38:16They always expect I'm going to be this dour pessimist.
38:19But the truth is that the backdrop that we don't always acknowledge in journalism is
38:25an extraordinary improvement in the human condition around the world.
38:29You know, fewer kids dying, fewer people malnourished, fewer people disabled by disease,
38:34more people literate, women more empowered.
38:37And also, I think at the same time, you know, side by side with the worst of humanity, Walter,
38:43you invariably find the very best.
38:45You find people of just amazing courage, strength, resilience who have left me utterly inspired
38:51about our capacity to still take on all these very real challenges around us.
38:56Your journalism has had a crusading aspect without necessarily being partisan or political
39:01or even ideological.
39:03And in some ways, I see your journalism as in the tradition of 100 years ago with Ida
39:09Tarbell and Upton Sinclair.
39:10Are those the models for you?
39:12Yeah, I think that's that's exactly right.
39:15It's not so much trying to change people's views about issues that are on the agenda,
39:19but rather trying to cover issues that are off the agenda and thereby project them onto
39:25the agenda in ways that will lead them to be resolved.
39:28And, you know, I think that mimics changes in the way history has unfolded that we used
39:33to think of history as what kings did.
39:35And then there was this revolution in history writing.
39:39So it was about what happened to societies, to women, to kids, et cetera.
39:43And I think likewise, the journalism needs to be a little less about what presidents
39:47did yesterday and more about the broad changes happening in society and including those left
39:52behind.
39:53You made your name in some ways by covering Tiananmen Square, by rushing into it when
39:59you were there for The New York Times.
40:02And yet I read in your book, there was an interesting thing that you say.
40:06One of the things I learned is that victims sometimes lie.
40:10Walk me through how you got that realization.
40:14So I was on Tiananmen Square that night when troops opened fire and I knew that they had
40:20slaughtered unarmed protesters.
40:23But I also knew, for example, that they had not sent tanks through the tents with a lot
40:31of students inside them, that the Tiananmen Square had not been knee deep in blood, et
40:36cetera.
40:37And I had been very careful to get figures from each of the hospitals about how many
40:44people had died.
40:45My estimate was 400 to 800 people dying in Beijing.
40:48And then in the days after, there were all this talk about tens of thousands of people
40:55dying at Tiananmen and the square being knee deep in blood.
40:59And I realized that we in journalism, it's intuitive of us to be skeptical and to challenge
41:07accounts by perpetrators of massacres, by dictators.
41:11But it's also, I think, natural for us to be sympathetic and less skeptical of victims.
41:17But victims exaggerate, they lie.
41:21And when you have suffered terribly, you're incentivized to say that something you heard
41:28about, that you actually witnessed it.
41:30And one of the things that I learned from that terrible night is that it's important
41:34for us as journalists, if we care deeply about getting the truth, to actually be as skeptical
41:43of victims as we are perpetrators.
41:45When you covered Darfur, you got in there, I think, using a United Airlines mileage card.
41:51You kind of snuck in, broke the rules.
41:54And it actually started a global movement to focus on the atrocities that were happening
42:01in Darfur.
42:02How did you learn about those?
42:04And how did you decide to embrace that as a sort of journalistic cause?
42:09So a lot of what I have done has really been about serendipity.
42:14You know, I made one trip in which I saw this horrible sex trafficking, and then that led
42:21me to more coverage of it.
42:23And likewise, I heard rumors about atrocities in Darfur.
42:32I didn't know if they were true.
42:34I made one trip to the Chad-Sudan border where I was able to interview refugees who described
42:42what had happened, who described villages being destroyed, bodies thrown into wells.
42:47So those villages would become uninhabitable.
42:50You know, I met a four-year-old girl who carried her baby sister eight days to get there after
42:55her parents had been killed.
42:57And I was horrified.
42:59And you can't just go back to your family and hug your kids and then just forget about
43:05what happened.
43:05It haunts you.
43:06And so the way we fight back is with our laptops and our cameras.
43:12But that means going back and getting more stories and trying to figure out what can
43:20spill people's coffee in the morning and get them to call their member of Congress or call
43:24the White House.
43:25And so that meant trying to sneak into Darfur.
43:29And it did become kind of an obsession with me that, you know, the more victims I met,
43:35the more I actually saw firsthand those villages.
43:39It just it did become something of an obsession.
43:43And one of the things you do is you personalize.
43:45In other words, an atrocity in Darfur is a concept and people can't get it.
43:50But if you meet one or two people and they become very personal, you can relate to it.
43:56Explain to me the role of personalizing a tragedy like that.
44:01Yeah.
44:01Then frankly, that came out of a frustration that my early reporting about Darfur just
44:07did not seem terribly effective.
44:08And in particular, at that time in New York City, there were these two hawks, these two
44:13red tailed hawks who had been nesting in a building.
44:15And then the building pushed them out of the took apart their nest because it didn't like
44:21the bird droppings.
44:22And all New York City was up in arms about these two homeless hawks.
44:26And I thought, how is it that I can't generate the same outrage about hundreds of thousands
44:30of people being slaughtered?
44:32And so that led me to the work in social psychology and neuroscience about what makes people care.
44:37And it turns out it's basically about two things.
44:39It's about individual stories.
44:41It's an emotional connection, not a not not a rational one.
44:47And secondly, it's about some possibility that if people do care about it, there can
44:53be a better outcome.
44:55And I think these are things we journalists do wrong.
44:58We talk about millions of people suffering from some crisis, and we often focus so much
45:04on all that is going wrong that we don't acknowledge the possibility of better outcomes.
45:11And so I've since then really tried to tell individual stories and likewise to to look
45:22at this backdrop of progress just so that, look, we can do better.
45:26And if people do get engaged, we can stabilize.
45:30One of the things I love about your journalism is that in an era of hot takes, when everybody's
45:34got to be a hero or villain and know exactly what side they're on, you're often conflicted
45:40and you lay out the reasons you're conflicted.
45:43And recently, it's been on the Gaza-Israel war front.
45:48And you say that sometimes a just war can turn unjust.
45:53Tell me, do you think that's what's happened now, that the Israeli war in Gaza has become
45:59unjust?
46:00That's exactly what I think.
46:01I think that on October 7th, Israel had every right to use military means to go after Hamas
46:08and indeed not just the right to go after Hamas, but really an obligation to do so,
46:13to reestablish deterrence, which I think had had failed.
46:17But that did not mean using 2,000 pound bombs to destroy entire neighborhoods in Gaza.
46:25That did not mean cutting off the flow of food in particular and things like birthing
46:31kits, because birthing kits have little tiny scissors in them to cut a umbilical cord.
46:37And I think then the US became complicit in that brutality in Gaza because President
46:48Biden was too slow to use the leverage that we had, which was essentially protecting Israel
46:53and the UN and shipping offensive weapons to Israel.
46:56So there's no doubt about the horror of October 7th, but I think there's also no doubt about
47:02the horror of what followed.
47:04And while I don't believe that there is a moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas,
47:08I do believe that there is a moral equivalence between the children of Israel and the children
47:14of Gaza.
47:15And I think we've neglected that.
47:18You covered the horrors of Darfur and you became a fan of Senator Joe Biden then because
47:25he was a person of compassion.
47:27But you say, I wonder where has that Joe Biden gone?
47:33Gaza has become the albatross around Biden's neck.
47:35It'll be part of his legacy, an element of his obituary, a blot on his campaign.
47:42What are you driving at?
47:44That Joe Biden has lost the compassion that he had before when it comes to Gaza?
47:49I don't think that he's lost his compassion.
47:52I think that's actually deep within him.
47:54And he also showed it during the Bosnia genocide.
47:57But I think that he has just preternaturally, I think it's in his DNA to side with Israel
48:06whenever there is some kind of a conflict.
48:08I think he is of an age of a generation where he thinks of Israel as enormously fragile
48:14and vulnerable and just rushes to embrace its leader.
48:22And I think that has made him too slow in using the leverage that we have, such as the
48:29flow of weapons to pressure Israel to do what he's asked it to do from the beginning.
48:35So Biden was, I think, very good right from his first trip to Israel to call on Israel,
48:40to show restraint, to remind Israel that the US made mistakes after 9-11 in ways that did
48:45not advance their own security.
48:47But when Netanyahu rebuffed him and ignored him, then at that point, I think Biden was
48:53way too slow to create consequences and to use that leverage.
48:59And diplomacy, as you know, is not just about making requests.
49:03It's also about twisting arms.
49:04Biden has been unwilling to do that.
49:06And I think that is what has made, has aggravated the crisis in Gaza and led to our own complicity
49:14in those results.
49:16You've written about your father's example as a refugee seeking asylum here.
49:22And yet recently, I've noticed that you've turned against having borders that would allow
49:29a lot of asylum.
49:30You've supported Joe Biden's new rule, cracking down on the borders.
49:33How tough was it for you to wrestle with that?
49:36It's a little hard for the son of a refugee who benefited from America's generosity toward
49:43refugees to feel a little bit like you're pulling up the ladder after you're here.
49:52But I think that the, what was going on with the asylum system in the US was unsustainable,
49:59both in the US and in Europe.
50:02And I think another thing that shaped my thinking was coming from rural Oregon, Yamhill, Oregon,
50:10a working class area, it was evident that, you know, there are costs to rising immigration.
50:17And those costs, you know, have to be paid by the state, by the government, by the people
50:22in the state.
50:23And so, you know, I think it's a little hard for me to say, you know, I don't think it's
50:28costs to rising immigration.
50:31And those who struggle are those who are high school dropouts, or certainly who haven't
50:37gone to college, who are competing with immigrant laborers.
50:42And these are folks who have already suffered enormously.
50:46I think we need to be careful about inflicting more damage on them.
50:50So for that kind of combination of reasons, I thought that it was important to back Biden
50:58in trying to bring back some order to the asylum process.
51:01I'm going to read you a sentence in the book that struck me.
51:04In a way that I had never imagined at the beginning of my career, I now felt that reporting
51:10on international crises helped me better understand my own country and the risks it faces.
51:19Tell me what it helped you understand and what risks are we facing?
51:22I think that comes partly out of the struggles of my own community in rural Oregon, which
51:31like a lot of working class communities around the country, lost jobs.
51:36Then meth arrived.
51:39At this point, more than a third of the kids in my old school bus are gone from drugs,
51:43alcohol, and suicide.
51:45That led to a deep hostility to what people would call elites, to conspiracy theories.
51:53A lot of my friends didn't want to get vaccinated.
51:56They became prone to demagogues, to people pointing towards scapegoats.
52:05A couple of friends have talked about taking up arms to get their country back.
52:12I've seen in other countries how things can fall apart and become unglued when there are
52:19scapegoats, when people feel disenfranchised and dispossessed.
52:22In Europe, we've seen how the extreme right, a bigoted extreme right, can gain ground remarkably
52:32quickly.
52:33But let's focus on Oregon and Yamhill, Oregon, which is where you now live.
52:39That's a striking thing that one third of the kids you rode the school bus with have
52:44died of either suicide, depression, or drug overdoses or addiction.
52:48And that's tied in to the both mistrust of the elites and the populist backlash.
52:55Most journalists in America are out of touch with things like that.
53:02Why is it that this is not better understood, and we don't even seem to have a good language
53:07to write about it?
53:09I think that, look, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan covering those wars,
53:15and they were important to cover.
53:18But every two and a half weeks, we lose more Americans to drugs, alcohol, and suicide than
53:25we lost in 20 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
53:29And I don't think that we in journalism, I don't think our elective leaders, I don't
53:33think the public has come to grips with the pain across the country in so many homes,
53:39the devastation in so many communities, nor have we devoted the resources to try to get
53:45these places back on their feet.
53:47And so when people feel neglected and ignored and, in some cases, betrayed, they're not
53:56entirely wrong.
53:57And if we are going to heal the divisions and address these conspiracy theories and
54:03make this soil less fertile for demagogues, then we also have to address that broader
54:08opportunity gap.
54:10And I think there's some people who think that this is just the white working class.
54:14I think that it was initially most obvious in the white working class.
54:20But increasingly, we've seen people of color, likewise, working class people of color,
54:25likewise, feeling the same sense of betrayal and neglect.
54:29And this is fundamentally, I think, about lack of opportunity.
54:34And I think we can do a lot better.
54:36Education, I think, is the best antidote to this.
54:39If we try to figure out how people can become competitive, we've got to do a better job
54:43educating, giving them a skill set so they can compete in the 21st century.
54:47And when one in seven kids still doesn't graduate from high school, we are failing
54:51them.
54:51We fail them before they fail us.
54:54Nick Kristof, thank you so much for joining us.
54:57Good to be with you, Walter.
54:59And finally tonight, a horsey homecoming.
55:01After nearly two centuries, wild horses have been reintroduced to their natural habitat
55:07on the grassy plains of Kazakhstan.
55:09Czech military aircraft airlifted the endangered animals all the way from Prague and Berlin,
55:15where they'd been living in zoos.
55:17Of course, in-flight meals were provided and they received a warm welcome.
55:22It's not just the horses that benefit.
55:24Their grazing also helps to prevent the spread of non-native plants and fires in those plains.
55:31So it's win-win.
55:32And that's it for our program tonight.
55:34If you want to find out what's coming up every night, sign up for our newsletter
55:37at pbs.org slash amanpour.
55:40Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
55:52you