From June 13, 2024, Nathalie Tocci and Thierry Arnaud discuss the latest from this week’s G7 meeting in Italy. Actress Julia Louis-Dreyfus and director Daina O. Pusić explore grief and love in their film “Tuesday.” Journalist Nicholas Kristof talks about his new memoir “Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life” and how he remains hopeful through his reporting on life’s darkest moments.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour and Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:09Riding high on her election win, Italy's Populist Prime Minister, Giorgia Meloni, welcomes
00:15the world's most powerful leaders to Puglia. We look at Europe at a turning point. Then…
00:21I don't know what I am without you, who I am without you. I don't know what the
00:29world is without you in it. The queen of comedy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus,
00:34gets serious in her new movie, Tuesday. The actress and the film's director join me. Plus…
00:40Side by side with the worst of humanity, Walter, you invariably find the very best.
00:45Chasing hope, journalist Nicholas Kristof tells Walter Isaacson
00:49how he finds light in the world's darkest corners.
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01:52Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
01:56Today in Italy, G7 leaders have agreed to loan Kyiv about $50 billion backed by the profits
02:03from Russia's frozen investments. It's been a banner week for the summit host,
02:07Italy's Prime Minister, Giorgia Maloney. Fresh off a big win in the European elections,
02:13the far-right leader has welcomed her G7 peers to Puglia. But that's not all.
02:18Maloney has also invited a slew of other power players like Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky,
02:25India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, and South Africa's Cyril Ramaphosa.
02:30An emboldened Maloney stands in stark contrast to her counterparts like France's Emmanuel Macron
02:36and Germany's Olaf Scholz, who are on very shaky ground after their parties took a beating
02:42from the far-right this weekend. Nonetheless, there are important issues to hash out
02:47and top of the agenda is, of course, Ukraine and Gaza. I'm joined by Nathalie Tocci,
02:53political scientist and former advisor to the EU's foreign policy chief, along with Thierry Arnault,
02:59senior international correspondent for the French channel BFM TV. Welcome to both of you. Thanks
03:05for being with us. Nathalie, can I start with you first? Because in Italy, at the G7,
03:13they actually did agree to make this loan to Kiev based on Russian frozen assets. Now,
03:18Russia is furious. It says there'll be painful retaliatory measures.
03:23How significant is this moment for Ukraine, Nathalie?
03:29Well, I mean, of course, Christiane, this agreement had been in the pipeline for quite
03:33some time, and the US had been pushing for it for quite some time. It was actually the
03:38European countries that had been resisting. And essentially, the reason why it's mainly the
03:46Europeans that have been caving in the sense of, you know, contributing to providing the guarantee
03:55to the guarantee, because of course, the big question really is, you know, what if the guarantee
04:00that is provided by those Russian assets were to somehow no longer be available, for instance,
04:06because of a quote, unquote, peace agreement, then who would actually, you know, guarantee
04:12that guarantee. And for a long time, there was, you know, haggling over this point. It seems to
04:18me that it's mainly been the Europeans that have been backtracking on some of their resistance.
04:23And I actually think that the reason why this is happening is because of a growing fear that
04:29if the agreement is not reached now, then it could be a lot harder to reach in a few months time,
04:35especially if the elections in the United States were to see a return of Donald Trump to
04:40the White House. So in a sense, you know, cash in whatever agreement you can get in now,
04:45because the future may actually be far more troubled. So I think, you know, although of
04:50course, it's an extremely positive development that this agreement has been reached. And as I
04:54said, it has been in the pipeline really for quite perhaps for a little bit too long. It's been, you
04:59know, long, long time in the making. But the reason why it actually ended up in this final squeeze is
05:04because of a fear that in future things could get far nastier. Well, let me turn to you, Tiriano,
05:09because in France, for instance, you have this far-right surge. Would a Prime Minister Bardella
05:17or a President Le Pen, would they, you know, put the brakes on this kind of thing? Because as you
05:23know, many of the far-right leaders, including Le Pen and others, have been criticized for their
05:28closer links to Vladimir Putin. They have indeed. The fact of the matter is that over the past few
05:37weeks and months, their position has moved towards a more Ukraine-friendly attitude. They were
05:43basically opposing any kind of aid, whether military or financial, for Ukraine initially,
05:50but they've come a long way since then. And as much as they have disapproved the President's
05:57moves, for example, providing fighter jets to Ukraine, as he's promised to do, and training
06:02the pilots as well, obviously, by the end of the year. He has also talked about deploying French
06:08military instructors in Ukraine. The way he would like to do it would be as part of a European
06:14coalition. But on those two specific aspects, obviously, neither Marine Le Pen or Jordan Bardella
06:22would approve of that and would sign off on it. But when it comes to financially supporting Ukraine
06:28or providing some kind of military equipment, they are now much more open to this than they were
06:35only a few weeks ago. I want to come back to more on Macron and his political issues right now.
06:41But first, I want to ask in relation to Georgia Maloney, Natalie, you know, some of the editorials
06:48have been saying that this G7 is six lame ducks and Georgia Maloney. In other words, as we know,
06:56many of the leaders there took a real drubbing. Do you agree with that image and that she now
07:03is really cemented as the solid European leader? Well, I mean, it's clear that out of those
07:14leaders, she is the one that came out electorally strengthened. So that is, I think, a fact.
07:21I actually, though, think that this narrative is overblown. Firstly, I think that Italy is
07:28presiding this G7 in extremely complicated times. It's actually a G7 that, with the exception of
07:34this one agreement on the Russian frozen assets, actually has no real deliverables. And it has no
07:42real deliverables precisely because, in general, the situation within the West has weakened really
07:49quite substantially. When it comes to Maloney herself, I also think that although over the last
07:55few months, and it's not just with the election, it's really been, you know, a narrative building
08:00up over the last few months of, you know, Maloney being the queen maker in Europe and what is her
08:05position vis-à-vis Ursula von der Leyen, we may be reaching the end of that story. And what I mean
08:13by this is that there comes a point where you kind of need to make a choice, right? And there's only
08:19so long that you can play this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde game, which has been going on for the last
08:23year and a half, frankly speaking, of being very hardline domestically and appearing to be rather
08:29malleable on foreign policy issues. There will come a point, and especially when it comes to the
08:35decisions concerning the future cohort of European leaders, that Maloney will have to choose whether
08:41to actually make the definitive move towards moderation and essentially end up being, given
08:48the electoral results at European level, the small fish, still the small fish in a big pond,
08:54or actually return to what probably her real beliefs and quote-unquote values are and move
09:02to the right, especially looking ahead at what may be happening in France soon.
09:07Right. Well, there she is in Italy, domestically. Her politics are much different, as you said,
09:12to her foreign policy, and they are much more right-wing on all the social issues and other
09:18such issues. So, Thierry Arnault, your president, Macron, is at this G7 meeting. I mean, along with
09:27Olaf Scholz, of course, but Macron's thrown down the gauntlet and has decided to go all in on a
09:33big gamble to make the French decide whether they really want the far right. How is it being taken?
09:42How are the French looking at it? What are you all seeing when you talk to people and interview
09:47people and report on this? Well, with a lot of puzzlement and astonishment as to what the
09:55president has decided to do. And most of the people you talk to do not necessarily understand
10:02why he has come to this decision. So he has some explaining to do, which he started doing yesterday
10:08by holding a France conference. And essentially, I think he did it for two reasons. The first one is
10:14who he is. He is a man with a lot of pride. He hates losing. He hates being in a corner.
10:20And when he finds himself in a situation where he holds very few strong cards, instead of doing
10:27the reasonable thing, which would be folding, he's going to go all in, which is exactly what he has
10:33done. And it's also his assessment of the current political situation. First of all, the loss is
10:40hard to overstate. I mean, how bad it is. And the conclusion he has drawn is that if not now,
10:47he would have had to do it anyway within the next few weeks or month. He was expecting, for example,
10:52a motion of no confidence to be adopted in Parliament by the fall over the next budget.
10:57And in that particular case, the government would have had to resign and he would have had to call
11:02this election. So might as well doing now out of his own initiative, as opposed to having to play
11:08defence in a few months' time. That's interesting. And the political gamble he is making is this one.
11:14He thinks that, in essence, a parliamentary election is very different from the European
11:20election. The defeat he has been submitted to is, in his opinion, first and foremost,
11:28the expression of a lot of anger. But it's one thing to be very angry and to express it by
11:33supporting the far right. It's quite different to vote for a parliament which is going to hand over
11:38power to Marine Le Pen and Jordan Bardella. And in his opinion, the French are not ready to go that far yet.
11:45It's a bet that governing parties have been making for the past 20 years. And if you look at what's
11:52been happening for 20 years is that each time so far, they have won that bet. But the margin by
11:58which they have won is getting narrower and narrower. And maybe it's going to disappear over
12:03So I was going to ask you that because, you know, there's one sort of, I mean, the leader of the
12:08traditional right-wing party, Les Républicains, he has called for an alliance with the Le Penistas.
12:16And he has had a lot of pushback from within his own traditional party. Let's not forget it's the
12:21party of Charles de Gaulle, who actually fought to rid France of the fascist regime.
12:29Are you surprised that this kind of red line between the regular parties and the far right has disappeared?
12:38No, because you will always find people, and Eric Ciotti, the leader of this particular party, is one of them,
12:44that think that the only way to win now, the only way for them to get back to power, is through that alliance.
12:51So, you know, it goes against the history of the party. It goes against the nature of its policies in many ways.
12:57But, you know, there are people like him who think that they want to run the country. They want to have a seat in the government.
13:03And the only way to do this now is to align with Marine Le Pen.
13:09You know, when you look at these results of the European election, they are really spectacular.
13:15Because, you know, the Rassemblement National, her party, came ahead in 93% of French cities, of all French cities, big and small.
13:22If you look at all the social classes, if you look at all the age groups, she's ahead almost everywhere now.
13:29Even where she used to be a traditionalist, she's now a radicalist, she's now a radicalist, she's now a radicalist.
13:36So, the wave of that election in her favour has been very strong.
13:42And it's a momentum that's going to be very hard to stop before the next election.
13:48Gosh, yeah, you seem to have a pessimistic view of how it's going to turn out. So, we'll see.
13:54But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
13:58But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:00But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:02But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:04But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:06But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:08But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:10But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:12But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:14But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:16But obviously, these are the kind of things that are going to be very, very important.
14:18Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:20Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:22Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:24Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:26Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:28Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:30Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:32Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:34Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:36Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:38Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:40Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:42Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:44Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:46Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:48Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:50Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:52Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:54Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:56Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
14:58Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:00Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:02Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:04Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:06Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:08Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:10Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:12Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:14Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:16Now, I just wonder what you think, because the Secretary of State is there, I think,
15:18Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:20Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:22Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:24Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:26Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:28Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:30Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:32Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:34Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:36Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:38Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:40Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:42Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:44Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:46Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:48Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:50Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:52Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:54Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:56Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
15:58Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:00Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:02Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:04Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:06Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:08Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:10Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:12Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:14Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:16Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:18Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:20Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:22Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:24Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:26Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:28Well, you know, Christiane, I think, you know, the tragedy of this moment is that,
16:30And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:32And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:34And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:36And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:38And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:40And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:42And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:44And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:46And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:48And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:50And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:52And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:54And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:56And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
16:58And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:00And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:02And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:04And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:06And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:08And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:10And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:12And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:14And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:16And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:18And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:20And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:22And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:24And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:26And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:28And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:30And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:32And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:34And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:36And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:38And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:40And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:42And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:44And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:46And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:48And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:50And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:52And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:54And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:56And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
17:58And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:00And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:02And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:04And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:06And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:08And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:10And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:12And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:14And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:16And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:18And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:20And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:22And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:24And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:26And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:28And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:30And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:32And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:34And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:36And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:38And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:40And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:42And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:44And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:46And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:48And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:50And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:52And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:54And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:56And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
18:58And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:00And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:02And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:04And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:06And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:08And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:10And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:12And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:14And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:16And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:18And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:20And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:22And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:24And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:26And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:28And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:30And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:32And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:34And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:36And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:38And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:40And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:42And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:44And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:46And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:48And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:50And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:52And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:54And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:56And so I fear that we're getting into this situation now once again,
19:58It's been really great talking to you, Natalie Tocci, Thierry Arnault,
20:00It's been really great talking to you, Natalie Tocci, Thierry Arnault,
20:02Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
20:04Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
20:06Now, Russia has formally sent an espionage case
20:08Now, Russia has formally sent an espionage case
20:10against the jailed American Wall Street Journal reporter,
20:12Evan Gershkovich, to court.
20:14He's been detained in Moscow since March of last year.
20:16In response, today, the Wall Street Journal said,
20:18Evan Gershkovich is facing a false and baseless charge.
20:20Evan is a journalist.
20:22The Russian regime's smearing of Evan is repugnant,
20:24disgusting, and baseless.
20:26The Russian regime's smearing of Evan is repugnant,
20:28disgusting, and based on calculated and transparent lies,
20:30we continue to demand his immediate release,
20:32as, of course, does the journalistic community.
20:34as, of course, does the journalistic community.
20:36Now, another noteworthy meeting is happening inside Italy tomorrow,
20:38Now, another noteworthy meeting is happening inside Italy tomorrow,
20:40and this one is in Vatican City.
20:42and this one is in Vatican City.
20:44The Pope, who is a fan of cracking jokes,
20:46is hosting some of the world's best comedians.
20:48The Church says it's in support of comedy
20:50contributing to a more empathetic world.
20:52contributing to a more empathetic world.
20:54Whoopi Goldberg, Stephen Colbert, Chris Rock,
20:56Conan O'Brien, they'll all be there,
20:58along with my next guest,
21:00one of the queens of comedy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
21:02one of the queens of comedy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
21:04She's given us lots of laughs in Seinfeld and Veep,
21:06She's given us lots of laughs in Seinfeld and Veep,
21:08but her new movie, Tuesday, is much more serious.
21:10but her new movie, Tuesday, is much more serious.
21:12The story centers on a mother, played by Louis-Dreyfus,
21:14The story centers on a mother, played by Louis-Dreyfus,
21:16and her daughter, Tuesday, who is dying.
21:18And when the mother struggles to accept this reality,
21:20death itself appears,
21:22death itself appears, in the form of a giant parrot,
21:24death itself appears, in the form of a giant parrot,
21:26and begins pecking her towards acceptance.
21:28Here's a clip from the trailer.
21:30You're unique.
21:32You made my head silent.
21:34Who are you talking to?
21:36Can you please just come out so she can see you?
21:42Adam,
21:44you need to say goodbye
21:46to your daughter.
21:48You have to get strong now.
21:50I can't.
21:52You can.
21:54And you have to let me help you.
21:56Life,
21:58every life,
22:00ends.
22:02The Magical Realist Fable
22:04is written and directed by Dina Opusich,
22:06who joined Julia to explain
22:08how this strangest of concepts
22:10helped them reach a universal truth.
22:12Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Dina Opusich,
22:14Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Dina Opusich,
22:16welcome to the program.
22:18Thank you for having us both.
22:20Thank you so much.
22:22It's an extraordinary film.
22:24It's very weird, at least to start off.
22:26But I just want to first start
22:28by asking you, Julia,
22:30I guess people do typecast you a little bit
22:32with the comedy thing,
22:34but you've done clearly a number of films
22:36that aren't comedy,
22:38and I wondered what about this one
22:40attracted you?
22:42Well, what attracted me to this role
22:44was
22:46the script, of course.
22:48But the script,
22:50in a very
22:52fantasy, magical, realism
22:54kind of way, explores
22:56issues of
22:58grief,
23:00death, dying, denial,
23:02acceptance, in addition to
23:04really exploring
23:06the bond between parent
23:08and child. All of those
23:10themes were,
23:12of course, they're very fundamental,
23:14and they really appealed to me
23:16to explore from a
23:18storytelling point of view.
23:20And it should be unnoted that
23:22one of the main stars, anyway,
23:24is a CGI giant
23:26morphing parrot.
23:28I mean, the two of you,
23:30how did you
23:32bond over this? Because it could have
23:34gone horribly wrong, or it could have been,
23:36as it is, really interesting.
23:38Well,
23:40Dinah and I met over Zoom
23:42a number of times to talk
23:44in depth about the script.
23:46And
23:48Dinah is obviously
23:50a very emotionally intelligent
23:52person and a true artist
23:54in every sense of the word.
23:56And really, it was quite
23:58clear to me, and she can speak more
24:00to this, that her desire
24:02in terms of the
24:04animated parrot,
24:06as it were, was
24:08to make this
24:10as beautiful and
24:12otherworldly and rooted
24:14in reality
24:16in such a way so that it would
24:18propel the story forward and
24:20give it proper
24:22sort of profundity.
24:24So, Dinah, tell me about it, because
24:26it's kind of an unusual vehicle.
24:28The parrot is death, the grim
24:30reaper.
24:32Well,
24:34I really, I designed
24:36the way that I did really through
24:38a sort of
24:40a process of deduction.
24:42I knew what the character was like.
24:44I knew what he needed to do in the film.
24:46I knew he needed to talk,
24:48which parrots are famous for,
24:50and I knew he needed to sing
24:52and dance and tell jokes.
24:54I felt also that his personality
24:56was sort of bird-like.
24:58He is kind of cuddly and friendly
25:00in one moment, and then at the turn
25:02of the head is frightening and
25:04dangerous.
25:06And
25:08I also felt that I needed
25:10to not just make him a parrot,
25:12but also make him a monster
25:14to push the reality of
25:16what he was, because
25:18I felt that that would be more believable
25:20in the visual effects.
25:21That's really interesting to hear you
25:23describe that.
25:24And you talk about using that
25:26vehicle, that parrot, to sort of
25:28push off certain realities
25:30and not play around, but
25:32essentially inhabit this reality,
25:34which turns out, Julia,
25:36your character, the mother,
25:38is trying to delay, deny
25:40the obvious, which is that your
25:42daughter Tuesday is dying
25:44and has an incurable disease.
25:46And I want to play just this
25:48clip, which is from
25:50the so-called bathroom scene,
25:52where you're essentially telling her
25:54to get a grip, weirdly.
25:56Let's just play it.
25:58It's the reality of the situation,
26:00isn't it?
26:02This is what parents do. They do what they have to do.
26:04Okay?
26:06And it's good to be honest about that.
26:10So you need to look reality in the eye
26:12instead of just getting angry
26:14at me about it.
26:16Are you being serious right now?
26:18Gosh, the actress who plays
26:20Tuesday is just so phenomenal.
26:22And that is, I mean, that's
26:24exactly the best line, because there you
26:26are telling her to, you know,
26:28get a grip, and she's the one dying.
26:30Just, Julia, put that into context,
26:32because you've spun a whole load
26:34of lies just to get out of the house
26:36so that you don't have to confront
26:38your dying daughter.
26:40Yes, exactly. I would
26:42say that the
26:44dysfunction that we sort of begin
26:46the film with is that
26:48my daughter
26:50in the film is really the parent
26:52to me.
26:54And she's...
26:56And
26:58my character is in
27:00such pain and
27:02suffering that she
27:04refuses to face
27:06the reality that her
27:08daughter is in. And so
27:10she's making one decision
27:12after another that doesn't seem
27:14on its face
27:16these are not nurturing
27:18decisions.
27:20And which includes
27:22not working, she's
27:24overcome with depression,
27:26she's selling off everything
27:28that's in their house to make ends
27:30meet. Nothing
27:32makes real rational sense.
27:34But I have to say
27:36as someone who played the character,
27:38I certainly understand where she's
27:40coming from. And
27:42by the end of the film
27:44the tables
27:46will have turned in the sense that
27:48my character
27:50Zora realizes
27:52that it's time for her to
27:54parent her child
27:56in the way that's necessary
27:58and critical.
27:59Well, I was going to do it later,
28:00but since you bring it up I'm going
28:01to play this later clip
28:03which is about how you are
28:05in fact realizing
28:07what exactly is going on and the
28:09dynamic. Here is this clip.
28:14I don't know
28:16what I am without you.
28:19Who I am without you.
28:21I don't know what the world
28:23is without you in it.
28:25I have absolutely
28:27no idea.
28:31And because of that
28:33I think, I don't know, I was
28:35scared. I was
28:37fighting for my own life.
28:39But
28:43I love you so much more
28:45than me.
28:48And this is your life.
28:51And
28:54from now on
29:00we're going to do what's best for you.
29:03It's really, really, really powerful
29:05and it's almost like you are finally
29:07being the adult, giving her the permission
29:09to be the child and to finish
29:11her journey which you will do together.
29:13Exactly. That's exactly
29:15right. Yeah.
29:17But what's so fascinating to me too
29:19about this film is that
29:21everything
29:23that in this fantastical
29:25reality that Dinah has so brilliantly
29:27created,
29:29it's a very believable scenario
29:31the lengths to which this
29:33mother, Zora, will go
29:35to keep her child
29:39from harm, from death.
29:41And it's a
29:43fantastical journey that makes sense
29:45I think in so many ways on an emotional
29:47and psychological level.
29:49Dinah, I want to ask you,
29:51did you write this as well?
29:53And what about your experience
29:55or where you grow up?
29:57I know your country was caught up in the Balkan Wars,
29:59I don't know, but what about death
30:01and grief and parenthood
30:03were you trying to explore as well?
30:05I did
30:07write it as well.
30:09I was...
30:11if I were to
30:13describe this film, I would say it's an accumulation
30:15of my thoughts and feelings in life
30:17up until this point,
30:19really. And making this film
30:21is to process everything
30:23that's happened so far, in a way.
30:25I wanted
30:27to explore
30:29the familial relationship which I have
30:31done as well in my short films before
30:33between mother and daughter
30:35and the intensity
30:37with which that type of love
30:39comes,
30:41that intensity sometimes
30:43brings not just love
30:45but in a way also
30:47hate, tension.
30:49Because when feelings run high to that extent
30:51in such an
30:53extreme way,
30:55tenderness and love
30:57run hand in hand
30:59almost with violence
31:01and misunderstanding.
31:03So
31:05this is a type
31:07of real messy
31:09love and relationship
31:11that I was really interested in exploring
31:13just because
31:15of my own life and my own experiences
31:17and
31:19in terms of my relationship
31:21with death, I feel
31:23and I hope that that's what
31:25the film speaks
31:27to and that the audience
31:29feels that when they watch the film
31:31that
31:33really,
31:35you know,
31:37if we are, you know,
31:39life has its meaning and
31:41it gains its weight and wonder
31:43and meaning because of the fact that it has
31:45an expiration date.
31:47And if we were to live our life
31:49understanding death and acknowledging it,
31:51then we're more likely to live a fuller
31:53and happier life.
31:55You know, what makes sense is that very
31:57few people talk about death. I mean, as you,
31:59Julia, I think I've heard you say,
32:01everybody is going to die. Everybody we
32:03know is going to die and we have
32:05to talk about it and
32:07understand it. And I thought
32:09there was the part of the
32:11film that makes death
32:13sort of less scary maybe
32:15is, again, the parrot,
32:17where there's a serious comedy
32:19bit there where you decide you're
32:21going to eat the parrot,
32:23Julia, as the mother, and try
32:25to kill death.
32:27Yeah, exactly.
32:29That's what I do. That's my
32:31maternal instinct
32:33coming out.
32:35I fight death
32:37to death.
32:39And when
32:41that doesn't work, I
32:43consume him.
32:44You do, indeed.
32:45And the vomiting him up
32:47again, I mean, the whole thing, that is
32:49pretty inspired. I mean, it's very funny.
32:51It's very meaningful.
32:53It's very dramatic and, you know,
32:55it's very clear. I also
32:57thought what was really interesting is the
32:59parrot is like the vehicle.
33:01The dying
33:03daughter and death are in a
33:05bond, a complicit bond
33:07to try to
33:09bring you along as the mother, Julia.
33:11Exactly, which is
33:13what is such a remarkable
33:15sort of
33:17turn of events in the storytelling
33:19of this film.
33:21They're trying
33:23to...
33:25Everybody's trying to negotiate with one
33:27another.
33:29Tuesday's trying to negotiate with
33:31death, to negotiate with her mother,
33:33to, you know, I mean, it is
33:35a master class
33:37in...
33:39I don't know what the word I
33:41would use for, but it is
33:43so outrageous.
33:45It's marvelous.
33:47And it, to me,
33:49makes complete and utter sense.
33:51And I
33:53loved everything about making this
33:55film with Dinah, I have
33:57to say. It's been a complete joy.
33:59Let me just ask you also about what's going
34:01gangbusters for you, and that is your podcast,
34:03Wiser Than Me.
34:05What are you getting out of that?
34:07One thing that's vastly surprised
34:09me is the reaction.
34:11I think, you know,
34:13I felt a need to have these
34:15conversations personally, and then it turns
34:17out many millions of people
34:19feel the need as well to hear these
34:21conversations, and
34:23so I'm
34:25honored
34:27to be talking to these women,
34:29to sitting at the feet
34:31of these women, to glean
34:33their wisdom from what I see
34:35as the sort of the front lines of life.
34:37Women often, as
34:39they age, become less visible,
34:41and that's a tremendous,
34:43well,
34:45that's a tremendous missed opportunity
34:47for the rest of the universe, because
34:49women in particular
34:51have an enormous amount of wisdom,
34:53I think, perhaps even
34:55more than the other gender.
34:57I'm sure
34:59all three women here would agree.
35:01Yes, exactly.
35:03But anyway, yeah,
35:05I'm very happy with how it's been received,
35:07for sure. And what about comedy?
35:09Obviously, you are burnt into everybody's
35:11minds with Seinfeld,
35:13with Veep.
35:15What is it that you like about comedy?
35:17Because you're obviously taking to this other stuff,
35:19like a duck to water.
35:21I mean, you're not typecast,
35:23but you are so good at the other
35:25as well. What do you like about it?
35:27Well, what's not to like?
35:29I mean, it's
35:31such an elevated experience
35:33to hear people laugh,
35:35and
35:39it's a blessing, really,
35:41and so
35:43it's something I've sort of
35:45in my career have
35:47sort of fallen into. Most of
35:49the jobs I've gotten in my
35:51career have been comedic.
35:55So I love
35:57doing comedy, but having said that,
35:59I love doing drama, and they're
36:01related in so many
36:03ways, and
36:05what I really like
36:07is trying new things and
36:09sinking my teeth into
36:11material that's
36:13familiar and challenging
36:15and
36:17artistically
36:19satisfying. So that's
36:21what I'm looking for. I don't want
36:23to do anything derivative, and
36:25certainly this film is not that.
36:27No, it's not. And I just, talking
36:29about new things, I hear that
36:31you have been selected
36:33or invited as a number
36:35of prominent comedians going to visit
36:37the Pope. What do you think
36:39he wants to know?
36:41You know what? Honestly, I
36:43have no idea.
36:45I have no idea what this is going
36:47to be like, and if you
36:49know, tell me, because
36:51I don't...
36:53But, you know,
36:55the Pope wants to meet. I'm like, sure.
36:57Let's see what this
36:59is going to be about. I'm interested.
37:01Well, there's a drama in there
37:03somewhere. And Dina Opusic,
37:05finally, what's next on your
37:07agenda? I mean, this was, you know,
37:09this was a particular drama.
37:11What's next?
37:13Make another one.
37:15Okay. Hopefully, if they let me.
37:17That's...
37:19All right. Well, that's a good
37:21way to end. Dina Opusic, Julia
37:23Louis-Dreyfus, thank you so much,
37:25indeed. Thank you. Thank you.
37:27And we had that conversation
37:29earlier this week, just ahead of
37:31when the film comes out, which is
37:33tomorrow. We turn next to someone
37:35who spent his career reporting on
37:37darkness around the world. And yet,
37:39in his new memoir, New York Times
37:41columnist Nicholas Kristof says
37:43he is chasing hope. He speaks to
37:45Walter Isaacson about that and
37:47the people that he's met along the way
37:49who help him to remain optimistic.
37:51Thank you, Krishan and
37:53Nick Kristof. Welcome back to the show.
37:55Great to be with you. For 40
37:57years, you've been covering
37:59everything from sex trafficking
38:01to child health issues
38:03and genocide. And yet,
38:05you set this new memoir out and you say
38:07chasing hope. What do you mean by
38:09chasing hope?
38:11So, you know, people
38:13meet me for the first time because I've been covering
38:15all these grim topics. They always expect I'm going to be
38:17this dour pessimist.
38:19But the truth is that
38:21the backdrop
38:23that we don't always acknowledge in journalism
38:25is an extraordinary improvement
38:27in the human condition around the world.
38:29You know, fewer kids dying,
38:31fewer people malnourished, fewer people
38:33disabled by disease, more people literate,
38:35women more empowered.
38:37And also,
38:39I think at the same time, you know,
38:41side by side with the worst of humanity,
38:43Walter, you invariably find
38:45the very best. You find people of
38:47just amazing courage, strength, resilience
38:49who have left me utterly inspired
38:51about our capacity to still
38:53take on all these very real challenges
38:55around us. Your journalism
38:57has had a crusading aspect
38:59without necessarily being partisan
39:01or political or even ideological.
39:03And in some ways, I see your journalism
39:05as in the tradition of a hundred
39:07years ago with either Tarbell
39:09and Upton Sinclair. Are those the models
39:11for you? Yeah, I think that's
39:13exactly right. It's not
39:15so much trying to change people's views
39:17about issues that are on the agenda,
39:19but rather trying to cover
39:21issues that are off the agenda
39:23and thereby project them onto the agenda
39:25in ways that will lead them to be
39:27resolved. And, you know,
39:29I think that mimics changes in
39:31the way history has unfolded,
39:33that we used to think of history as what kings
39:35did. And then there was this
39:37revolution in
39:39history writing. So it was about what happened to
39:41societies, to women, to kids, etc.
39:43And I think, likewise, that journalism needs to
39:45be a little less about what presidents
39:47did yesterday and more about the broad
39:49changes happening in society
39:51and including those left behind.
39:53You made your name in some
39:55ways by covering Tiananmen
39:57Square, by rushing into it
39:59when you were there for the New York
40:01Times. And yet I read in your book
40:03there was an interesting thing that
40:05you say, one of the things I learned
40:07is that victims sometimes lie.
40:09Walk me through how you
40:11got that realization.
40:13So I was on
40:15Tiananmen Square that night when
40:17troops opened fire, and I knew that
40:19they had slaughtered
40:21unarmed protesters, but
40:23I also knew, for
40:25example, that they had not
40:27sent tanks through the
40:29tents with a lot of students
40:31inside them, that the
40:33Tiananmen Square had not been knee-deep in blood,
40:35etc.
40:37And I had been
40:39very careful to get
40:41figures from each of the hospitals
40:43about how many people had died. My estimate
40:45was 400 to 800 people
40:47dying in Beijing. And then
40:49in the days after, there were all
40:51this talk about tens
40:53of thousands of people dying
40:55at Tiananmen and
40:57the square being knee-deep in blood.
40:59And I realized
41:01that we in journalism,
41:03it's intuitive of us to be
41:05skeptical and to challenge accounts
41:07by perpetrators of massacres,
41:09by dictators. But it's also,
41:11I think, natural for us to be
41:13sympathetic and less
41:15skeptical of victims.
41:17But victims
41:19exaggerate. They lie.
41:21And when you have suffered terribly,
41:23you're incentivized to
41:25say that, you know,
41:27something you heard about, that you actually
41:29witnessed it. And one
41:31of the things that I learned from that terrible night
41:33is that it's important for us as journalists
41:35if we care deeply
41:37about getting the truth,
41:39to actually
41:41be as skeptical
41:43of victims as we are of perpetrators.
41:45When you covered
41:47Darfur, you got in
41:49there, I think, using United Airlines
41:51mileage card. You kind of snuck in,
41:53broke the rules,
41:55and it actually started
41:57a global movement to focus
41:59on the atrocities that
42:01were happening in Darfur.
42:03How did you learn about those, and
42:05how did you decide to embrace that
42:07as a sort of journalistic cause?
42:09So a lot of
42:11what I have done has really been about
42:13serendipity. You know, I made one trip
42:15in which I saw
42:17this, you know, horrible sex
42:19trafficking, and then that led me to
42:21more coverage of it.
42:23And likewise,
42:25I may, I
42:27heard rumors about
42:29atrocities in
42:31Darfur. I didn't
42:33know if they were true. I made
42:35one trip to the
42:37Chad-Sudan border where I
42:39was able to interview refugees
42:41who described what had happened,
42:43who described villages being
42:45destroyed, bodies thrown into wells
42:47so those villages would become uninhabitable.
42:49You know, I met a four-year-old
42:51girl who carried her baby sister
42:53eight days to get
42:55there after her parents had been killed.
42:57And I was horrified.
42:59And you can't just go back
43:01to your family and hug your kids
43:03and then just forget about what happened.
43:05It haunts you. And
43:07so the way we fight back
43:09is with our laptops and
43:11our cameras. But that means going back
43:13and getting more stories
43:15and trying to figure out what
43:17can, you know, make,
43:19can spill people's coffee in the morning
43:21and get them to call their member of Congress
43:23or call the White House. And
43:25so that meant
43:27trying to sneak into Darfur.
43:29And it did become
43:31kind of an obsession with me that,
43:33you know, the more victims I met, the more
43:35I actually saw firsthand those
43:37villages.
43:39It just, it did become
43:41something of an obsession.
43:43And one of the things you do is you personalize.
43:45In other words, an atrocity
43:47in Darfur is a concept
43:49and people can't get it. But if you meet
43:51one or two people
43:53and they become very personal,
43:55you can relate to it. Explain to me
43:57the role of personalizing
43:59a tragedy like that.
44:01Yeah, Ben, frankly, that came out of a frustration
44:03that my early reporting about
44:05Darfur just did not seem
44:07terribly effective. And in particular, at that
44:09time in New York City, there were these
44:11two hawks, these two red-tailed
44:13hawks who had been nesting in a building
44:15and then the building pushed
44:17them out of the
44:19took apart their nest because they didn't like the
44:21bird droppings. And all New York City
44:23was up in arms about these two homeless
44:25hawks. And I thought, how is it that I can't
44:27generate the same outrage about hundreds
44:29of thousands of people being slaughtered?
44:31And so that led me to the work in
44:33social psychology and neuroscience
44:35about what makes people care.
44:37And it turns out it's basically about two
44:39things. It's about individual stories.
44:41It's an emotional connection,
44:43not a
44:45rational one. And secondly,
44:47it's about some
44:49possibility that if people
44:51do care about it, there can
44:53be a better outcome. And
44:55I think these are things we journalists
44:57do wrong. We talk about millions
44:59of people suffering from some crisis
45:01and we often focus so
45:03much on all that is going wrong
45:05that we don't acknowledge the
45:07possibility of better
45:09outcomes. And
45:11so I
45:13since then really tried to
45:15tell individual stories and
45:17likewise to
45:19to
45:21look at this backdrop
45:23of progress just so that, look,
45:25we can do better. And if people do get engaged,
45:27we can save lives.
45:29One of the things I love about your journalism
45:31is that in an era of hot takes
45:33when everybody's got to be a hero or
45:35villain and know exactly which side
45:37they're on, you're often conflicted
45:39and you lay out the reasons
45:41you're conflicted. And recently
45:43it's been on the Gaza-Israel
45:45war front.
45:47And you say that sometimes a
45:49just war can turn
45:51unjust. Tell me,
45:53do you think that's what's happened
45:55now, that the Israeli war
45:57in Gaza has become unjust?
45:59That's exactly what I think.
46:01I think that on October 7th,
46:03Israel had every right to use
46:05military means to go after Hamas
46:07and indeed not just
46:09their right to go after Hamas, but
46:11really an obligation to do so, to
46:13reestablish deterrence,
46:15which I think had failed.
46:17But that
46:19did not mean using 2,000
46:21pound bombs to destroy entire
46:23neighborhoods in Gaza.
46:25That did not mean cutting off
46:27the flow of food in particular
46:29and things like birthing
46:31kits, because birthing kits have
46:33little tiny scissors in them to cut a
46:35umbilical cord.
46:37And I think
46:39then the U.S. became
46:41complicit in that
46:43brutality in
46:45Gaza because
46:47President Biden was too
46:49slow to use the leverage
46:51that we had, which was essentially protecting
46:53Israel and the U.N. and shipping
46:55offensive weapons to Israel.
46:57There's no doubt
46:59about the horror of October 7th, but I think
47:01there's also no doubt about the horror of what followed.
47:03And while I don't believe that
47:05there is a moral equivalence between
47:07Israel and Hamas, I do believe
47:09that there is a moral equivalence
47:11between the children of Israel
47:13and the children of Gaza.
47:15And I think we've neglected that.
47:17You covered the horrors
47:19of Darfur, and
47:21you became a fan
47:23of Senator Joe Biden then,
47:25because he was a person of compassion.
47:27But you say,
47:29I wonder, where has
47:31that Joe Biden gone?
47:33Gaza has become the albatross around Biden's
47:35neck. It'll be part of his legacy,
47:37an element of his obituary,
47:39a blot on his campaign.
47:41What are you
47:43driving at? That Joe Biden has
47:45lost the compassion that he had before
47:47when it comes to Gaza?
47:49I don't think that he's lost his
47:51compassion. I think that's actually
47:53deep within him, and he also showed it
47:55during the Bosnia genocide.
47:57But I think that
47:59he has just
48:01preternaturally, I think it's in his DNA,
48:03to side
48:05with Israel whenever there
48:07is some kind of a conflict. I think
48:09he is of an age, of a generation,
48:11where he thinks of Israel
48:13as enormously fragile and vulnerable.
48:15And
48:17just
48:19rushes to embrace
48:21war. And I think that has made
48:23him too slow
48:25in using
48:27the leverage that we have, such
48:29as the flow of weapons,
48:31to pressure Israel to
48:33do what he's asked it to do from the beginning.
48:35So Biden was, I think,
48:37very good right from his first trip to Israel
48:39to call on Israel, to show restraint,
48:41to remind Israel that the U.S.
48:43made mistakes after 9-11 in ways
48:45that did not advance their own security.
48:47But when Netanyahu
48:49came in and ignored him,
48:51then at that point, I think,
48:53Biden was way too slow
48:55to create consequences
48:57and to use that leverage.
48:59And diplomacy, as you know,
49:01is not just about making requests.
49:03It's also about twisting arms.
49:05Biden has been unwilling to do that.
49:07And I think that is what has made,
49:09has aggravated the crisis in Gaza
49:11and led to our own
49:13complicity in those results.
49:15You've written
49:17your father's example
49:19as a refugee seeking asylum
49:21here, and yet recently
49:23I've noticed that you've
49:25turned against having
49:27borders that would allow a lot of
49:29asylum. You've supported Joe
49:31Biden's new rule, cracking down on the
49:33borders. How tough was it for you to wrestle
49:35with that?
49:37You know,
49:39it's a little hard
49:41for the son of a refugee who
49:43benefited from America's
49:45generosity toward refugees
49:47to
49:49feel
49:51a little bit like you're pulling up the ladder
49:53after you're here.
49:55But I think that
49:57what was going on with the asylum
49:59system in the U.S. was unsustainable.
50:01Both in the
50:03U.S. and in Europe, it
50:05laid the groundwork for extreme
50:07right-wing populists
50:09who are bad for
50:11refugees, for asylum
50:13seekers, for absolutely everybody.
50:15And I think another thing
50:17that shaped my thinking
50:19was coming from
50:21rural Oregon, Yamhill, Oregon,
50:23a working-class area, it
50:25was evident that, you know, there
50:27are costs to
50:29rising immigration, and
50:31those who struggle are those
50:33who are high school dropouts
50:35or certainly who haven't got to
50:37college, who are competing with
50:39immigrant laborers
50:41and
50:43these are folks who have already
50:45suffered enormously. I think we need to
50:47be careful about inflicting
50:49more damage on them. So for that kind
50:51of combination of reasons, I
50:53thought that it was important
50:55to back
50:57Biden in trying to bring
50:59back some order to the asylum process.
51:01I'm going to read you a sentence in the book
51:03that struck me. In a way that I
51:05had never imagined at the beginning
51:07of my career, I now felt that
51:09reporting on international crises
51:11helped me better understand
51:13my own country
51:15and the risks it faces.
51:17Tell me
51:19what it helped you understand and what risks
51:21are we facing? I think that
51:23comes partly out of
51:25the struggles of my own community
51:27in rural Oregon,
51:29which, like a lot
51:31of working-class communities around the country,
51:33lost jobs,
51:35then meth
51:37and alcohol
51:39and suicide.
51:41That led to a
51:43deep hostility to what people would
51:45call elites, to
51:47conspiracy theories.
51:49A lot of
51:51my friends didn't want to get vaccinated.
51:53They
51:55became
51:57prone to
51:59demagogues, to people
52:01pointing towards scapegoats.
52:03A couple of friends have talked
52:05about taking up arms to
52:07get their country back.
52:09I've seen
52:11in other countries how
52:13things can fall apart
52:15and become unglued when there are scapegoats,
52:17when people feel disenfranchised
52:19and dispossessed. In Europe,
52:21we've seen how the
52:23extreme right,
52:25a bigoted
52:27extreme right, can
52:29gain ground remarkably quickly.
52:31Let's focus on
52:33Oregon and Yamhill.
52:35Yamhill, Oregon,
52:37which is where you now live, that's a striking
52:39thing that one-third of the kids you rode
52:41the school bus with have died
52:43of either suicide, depression, or
52:45drug overdoses or addiction,
52:47and that's tied
52:49in to the both mistrust of
52:51the elites and the populist
52:53backlash. Most
52:55journalists in America are
52:57out of touch with things like that.
52:59Why
53:01is it that
53:03this is not better understood, and
53:05we don't even seem to have a good language
53:07to write about it? I think
53:09that, look,
53:11I spent a lot of time in Iraq
53:13and Afghanistan covering those wars,
53:15and they were important to cover,
53:17but every two and a half weeks
53:19we lose more Americans
53:21to drugs, alcohol,
53:23and suicide than we lost in
53:2520 years of war in
53:27Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't think
53:29that we in journalism, I don't think
53:31our elective leaders, I don't think the
53:33public has come to grips
53:35with the pain across
53:37the country in so many homes,
53:39the devastation in so many communities,
53:41nor have we devoted
53:43the resources to try to get
53:45these places back on their feet.
53:47And so when people
53:49feel neglected
53:51and ignored, and
53:53in some cases betrayed,
53:55they're not entirely wrong.
53:57And if we are
53:59going to heal the divisions and address
54:01these conspiracy theories and
54:03make this soil less fertile
54:05for demagogues, then we also have
54:07to address that broader opportunity
54:09gap. And I think
54:11sometimes people think this is just the
54:13white working class. I think
54:15that it
54:17was initially most obvious in
54:19the white working class, but increasingly
54:21we've seen people of color,
54:23working class people of color, likewise
54:25feeling this same
54:27sense of betrayal and neglect.
54:29And this is fundamentally, I
54:31think, about lack of opportunity.
54:33And I think we can do a lot better.
54:35Education, I think, is the best
54:37antidote to this. If we try
54:39to figure out how people can become competitive,
54:41we've got to do a better job
54:43educating, giving them a skill set so they can
54:45compete in the 21st century.
54:47And when one in seven kids still doesn't graduate
54:49from high school, we are failing them.
54:51We fail them before they fail us.
54:53Nick Kristof, thank you so much
54:55for joining us.
54:57Good to be with you, Walter.
54:59And finally tonight, a horsey
55:01homecoming. After nearly two
55:03centuries, wild horses have
55:05been reintroduced to their natural habitat
55:07on the grassy plains of Kazakhstan.
55:09Czech military
55:11aircraft airlifted the endangered
55:13animals all the way from Prague
55:15and Berlin, where they'd been living in
55:17zoos. Of course, in-flight
55:19meals were provided, and they received
55:21welcome. It's not just the horses
55:23that benefit. Their grazing
55:25also helps to prevent the spread
55:27of non-native plants and
55:29fires in those plains.
55:31So it's win-win. And that's it for our
55:33program tonight. If you want to find out what's
55:35coming up every night, sign up for our
55:37newsletter at pbs.org
55:39slash amanpour. Thanks for watching
55:41and goodbye from London.
55:51you