Jack Clarke and Matty Young transfer latest plus South Shields and Gateshead reaction
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00:00Hello and
00:29welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:34My name is Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer at the Echo,
00:38James Copley.
00:39We're back to talk about Sunderland's first games of pre-season and the latest
00:44news coming out of the Stadium of Light.
00:47So James, how's things this afternoon?
00:50Yeah, not bad.
00:50Thank you.
00:51All good.
00:51Looking forward to talking about some games, some transfer stuff.
00:54Nice that the football's back.
00:55Shame about England last night, man.
00:57That was a tough one to take, but I think Spain probably were the best team in the
01:02tournament, you have to say.
01:04Yeah, still a bit raw.
01:05We're recording this on Monday afternoon, the day after the night before.
01:09But we're here to talk about Sunderland, who were back in action.
01:12Two teams took to the field on Saturday, two friendlies on the same day, with the
01:19squad split into two sides consisting of first-team players and under-21s players.
01:25The first team won 5-0 at South Shields, five different goalscorers as well.
01:30Patrick Roberts, Tri Hulme, Chris Rigg, Eliza Mayenda and Adil Ashish all getting on
01:35the score sheet.
01:36The second team were then beaten 2-1 at Gateshead with Jack Clarke scoring Sunderland's
01:42goal from the penalty spot.
01:44James, you were at both games.
01:46I was just at the Gateshead match.
01:47So we'll start the first game against South Shields, a convincing 5-0 win.
01:53So what were your main kind of takeaways from that match at the first Cloud Arena?
01:59I thought it was really interesting, actually.
02:01What caught my eye initially was Chris Rigg alongside Dan Neal.
02:06I thought that was a really interesting partnership.
02:08I'm really curious to see how that develops, whether it's something Rajeev Sabri will
02:13use in Championship games next season.
02:15Obviously, Chris Rigg's decided to stay at Sunderland.
02:17You would expect that's because he's been given assurances that he's going to be
02:21played in his preferred position, which is probably a number 8 or a number 10.
02:25Obviously, he was played out on the right-hand side of attack last season and did OK
02:30there, but we're expecting him to move back in the middle.
02:32I thought that worked really well.
02:36They sort of dovetailed quite nicely.
02:37When one went forward, the other one would sit.
02:39I would say Dan Neal was probably the number six in that partnership.
02:44But Chris Rigg is so combative.
02:46He was flying into tackles, winning the ball back.
02:48His intensity really impressed me.
02:50The three-year deal doesn't seem to have gone to his head.
02:52He's still even more eager to impress after that.
02:57So, that was good to see.
02:59I thought Leo Hjelda going in the centre-back.
03:02I think that's probably something we're going to see a little bit more often, whether he
03:04starts there.
03:05Obviously, you'd expect that to be Ballard on 0-9 as the season starts.
03:09He obviously played more as a left-back since coming in last January.
03:13That was interesting.
03:14Obviously, you had the trial and school keeper as well, the former Stoke City man.
03:19I'm just going to call him Blondie because I can't pronounce his second name.
03:23Yeah, I've had his name written down, but yeah, you can pronounce it rather than me.
03:26No, I'm not going to, Joe.
03:27You won't get me.
03:28I'm going to call him Blondie because that's his first name and I'm sticking with that.
03:31I thought he was OK and didn't really have much to do at all in the first half.
03:35Distribution was decent.
03:37He shanked one early on in the second half and then improved.
03:43So, yeah, Sunderland were fiving up.
03:46Roberts played well.
03:46Hume played well.
03:47Adil Ashish in number 10, he played well.
03:50I was really impressed with Romain Mundell out on the left wing as well.
03:54He really had the bit between his teeth.
03:57And then halftime came and went and then it was just sort of a bit of a non-event in the
04:01second half.
04:02South Shields changed their team entirely, stuck on a load of youngsters.
04:06Sunderland did similar in the 70th minute, although Crompton did come on for Ballard
04:10before that and I think Kelly was on slightly earlier than everybody else.
04:14Yeah, Kelly came on for Rigg, I think.
04:17And then Sunderland brought the likes of Bainbridge, Harrison Jones on and a few others
04:22as well.
04:22And it just sort of petered out as a game, as you would expect.
04:27But, you know, I think it's interesting, isn't it, to look at pre-season games.
04:31Interesting to see what Regis Lebrie was trying, obviously a 4-2-3-1 in both games.
04:38But as we've discussed on social media, as we've discussed in private over recent seasons,
04:42it's really hard to draw too much from the games, isn't it?
04:47Because they were sort of chalk and cheese, really, the two performances.
04:50You know, Newman getting his feet under the table in the dugout.
04:53It's really hard to say, you know, how Sunderland will do this upcoming championship
04:58season based on those two games.
05:01Although there was a lot of sort of interesting things to sort of look at, I would say.
05:06Another thing that seemed to come out of the South Shields game, you'll be better placed to
05:10comment on it than me, was a high press that Sunderland seemed to be kind of implementing.
05:14It wasn't as evident in the Gateshead game in the second game, where Gateshead saw a lot more
05:18of the ball, particularly in the first half.
05:20It seemed like, from the reports and from what I heard, that Sunderland were trying
05:23to press high under Lebrie, albeit against lower league opposition in South Shield.
05:28It'll be interesting to see when they do play against, you know, higher quality opposition,
05:32if they can still implement that.
05:34But was that something that was quite evident from the start then at the Shields?
05:38Yeah, it was, and I should shout out Eliza Maienda as well, who started up front and
05:43played well and scored his penalty.
05:47Yeah, I would say Maienda and Rigg did really press from the front.
05:50Aushish did as well.
05:52But again, the caveat to that is that South Shields were really poor at the back.
05:56They were trying to play it out from the back as well, I would say, under former Sunderland
06:00and Newcastle coach Elliot Dickman.
06:02But there was just extreme levels, so it's really hard to judge.
06:06Yes, I would say that was probably a deliberate ploy.
06:09Whether that translates to success in Championship games, I'm not sure, because South Shields
06:14were just, you know, they were a non-league team at the back and Sunderland were able
06:18to exploit that, as you would expect.
06:20What I will say, it was nice to see Patrick Roberts sort of, you know, nearing his sort
06:26of more productive sort of form.
06:29He looked really sharp, looked really good.
06:30He obviously struggled last season a bit in terms of his output.
06:33I think if Sunderland can get him back fit and firing, that's going to be a massive boost
06:38to Le Brice.
06:39And I think it was his first goal in sort of any competition in about a year as well.
06:44So, good to see him back and hopefully that's a big positive going forward.
06:50Yeah, it definitely feels like a big year for Roberts.
06:52Obviously, he didn't hit the heights last season as he had done the year before.
06:55But you mentioned Mayenda and he's an interesting one and someone I wanted to come on to because
06:59Sunderland strike situation.
07:01I think it's quite clear the club want to bring in at least one new striker in this
07:05summer's transfer window.
07:06They've still got three strikers on their books in Eliza Mayenda, who was on loan at
07:10Herburnium last season and the second half of last season.
07:13They've got Nazir Hussain, who started the Gateshead game and actually won the penalty,
07:17which Jack Clarke converted.
07:19And Hamir as well, who came on in the second half of the South Shields game.
07:23So, out of those three, I would probably suggest that Hussain is probably still top of the
07:28pecking order, just a little bit older, a little bit more experienced.
07:31And we saw flashes of what he can do.
07:33Last season, he scored two championship goals.
07:35Obviously, he was coming in from Ukraine and needed that bit of time to settle.
07:39Hopefully now, in his second season, he can have a bit more confidence with a full pre-season
07:44under his belt.
07:44We can see more from him.
07:46But Mayenda is another one.
07:47Even when we saw him last season in the Championship, he looked extremely raw.
07:51But you thought he has got something about him.
07:53He's powerful.
07:54He's quick.
07:55He puts himself about.
07:58Do you see Mayenda as someone who can play a big part in the Championship next season?
08:02Do you think he's going to be someone who's in and out?
08:04Probably you'd expect him off the bench, wouldn't you?
08:06I suggest if another striker does come in and would perhaps be the first choice.
08:09But what did you make of Mayenda overall?
08:12Yeah, it was definitely a step forward in his career, I would say.
08:16He's still 19 years old.
08:17I think he played eight times for Sunderland in the Championship last season.
08:21I can't remember off the top of my head, Joe, but I don't think any of them were starts.
08:25I think there was one at Plymouth.
08:28One at Plymouth, so yeah.
08:30So he's hardly played for Sunderland really in terms of his minutes.
08:34Obviously, he's got eight appearances to his name.
08:35And then he had that strange loan move to Herburnian, which didn't work out at all.
08:40I think he only played twice up in Scotland.
08:42Yeah, I was a bit surprised by that.
08:44Yeah, me and Phil discussed this a couple of weeks ago.
08:48Phil was saying that he was surprised that Mayenda actually went out on loan
08:51because the plan was to sort of get him settled, if that makes sense, in the North East.
08:57So that was a bit of a puzzling one.
08:58But in terms of the South Shields game, I was really, really impressed with him.
09:02He did press.
09:03He did have a bit of quality.
09:04He did put himself about a bit.
09:06But it's just so hard to judge because, and we'll come on to him,
09:10but I remember looking at Hemiya last season at South Shields when we just signed him.
09:14And I thought, you know, there's potentially a play there.
09:17I think Mayenda has definitely got something.
09:19He's got a lot of those raw attributes.
09:22But let's face it, Sunderland can't go into the season with Mayenda
09:26as the sort of starting striker.
09:28They will need to sign players in that area.
09:31Could he contribute in terms of the squad?
09:33I think yes, absolutely.
09:34Maybe dropping down into the under-21s at times as well.
09:37I think it's whether Sunderland will decide that's his role
09:42or whether they'll decide to sort of send him out on loan again
09:44to somewhere that will play more regularly.
09:47I think it's probably 50-50, depending on how the player feels.
09:51I think I would prefer to sort of see him stay
09:54and sort of bed in to the North East, bed in to Sunderland,
09:59play for the under-21s, maybe come off the bench in Championship games,
10:04get a feel for the squad.
10:06But again, always the caveat is that we don't know
10:09how the rest of pre-season is going to go.
10:11At the end of it, if he's sitting with, I don't know, eight or nine goals,
10:16you never know.
10:17Everybody could be calling for him to start that first Championship game against Cardiff.
10:20So yeah, with Roosen as well, obviously, we'll come on to the Gateshead game,
10:24but I'm convinced his position's more of a winger, personally.
10:29But the thing is, Jack Clarke's quite good,
10:32so he's not going to start there as things stand, is he?
10:36Yeah, that was another interesting aspect.
10:37Yeah, we'll come on to the Gateshead game,
10:39but I tend to agree with the Mayender.
10:40I think you probably go into the season,
10:42he's probably, ideally, your third-choice striker.
10:45If you have two options, maybe ahead of him.
10:47If that's someone you bring in and then a Roosen,
10:49if Roosen is going to play down the middle,
10:51and then Mayender's your third-choice striker who can,
10:54yeah, maybe you can drop him into the U21 set-up,
10:57sometimes get some game time.
10:58Because I think there's definitely ability there, as we've seen,
11:01but still very raw and a lot of pressure to be throwing him in
11:04and giving him starts in the Championship every week.
11:07He's definitely an interesting one to watch.
11:09And coming on to Roosen as well,
11:12you mentioned that he's possibly a wide forward,
11:15and I think that's where he predominantly played in Ukraine.
11:18But given Sunday's situation, there's so many wide options.
11:21I mean, you just mentioned Jack Clark there,
11:22and you've got Patrick Roberts,
11:23and you've got people like Romain Mundell.
11:25You've got, we'll come on to the Gateshead game,
11:27Djuric and Bennett's come back from a loan spell.
11:29He played against Gateshead.
11:31There's a lot of options in wide areas.
11:32And I said at the start that the squad was split into two,
11:35between under-21s and senior players.
11:38But actually, you look at the two starting XIs,
11:39you'd probably say a lot of those were,
11:41you'd class them as senior players.
11:42I know a lot of them are young.
11:43People like Bennett are only 19, Mayender,
11:46they are teenagers,
11:46but they've been brought in as kind of former senior players
11:50in a very young squad.
11:51So the squad is pretty stacked at the minute in a lot of areas.
11:55And we'll move on to the Gateshead game now.
11:59Another, again, pretty on paper,
12:02a team you'd expect to probably beat Gateshead.
12:04But I thought Gateshead,
12:06I was actually really impressed with them.
12:07I thought the way that they played,
12:08they moved the ball very well.
12:10They set up with a back three and wing backs
12:11and really pinned Sunderland back.
12:12And you could probably tell that they'd been
12:14back for a few more weeks earlier in pre-season
12:17and were ready for the game.
12:19Sunderland, I just didn't feel got control in the midfield.
12:22It was a similar formation, 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.
12:26Three midfielders of Jay Matete, Elliott Embleton and Joe Bellingham.
12:31It looked a little bit clunky.
12:32You could kind of tell that they hadn't really played much together.
12:36Matete and Embleton obviously come back from
12:38quite long-term injury setbacks.
12:41And Sunderland kind of really struggled to get control of the game,
12:44particularly in that first half.
12:46Equa came on at halftime and probably gave them a little bit more control,
12:49but struggled to really create too many clear-cut chances,
12:52which has been a familiar story, hasn't it,
12:54for the last year or however long.
12:57But what did you kind of take away from that Gateshead game?
13:00Kind of a case of, I think the main thing was getting minutes in the bank,
13:04but it just didn't quite click, did it,
13:07with those players coming in.
13:08And you could tell maybe a few of them
13:09hadn't played together as much.
13:11No, absolutely.
13:12And I think it's worth noting,
13:14although Sunderland should absolutely be beating Gateshead,
13:17I think Gateshead are a different proposition to South Shields,
13:21obviously in a different league.
13:23What happened at Gateshead last season was a disgrace with them,
13:26with the team not being allowed to go into the play-offs of it.
13:29Gateshead could have been an AFL club this season, really.
13:32So they are at a level above.
13:33I'm not trying to give Sunderland players an excuse.
13:36I think you mentioned that midfield there,
13:38Jay Metete and Elliot Embelton,
13:40with Joe Bellingham in front of them,
13:42that's never going to be a midfield for a championship game.
13:45I don't think I would be stunned if we see that as a midfield three
13:49for a championship game for Sunderland next season.
13:51And you mentioned about Embelton and Metete not having played much together.
13:55They haven't played much at all anywhere in the past sort of,
14:00you know, six months for Metete and 18 months and beyond for Embelton due to injury.
14:04So I did feel like, you know,
14:07that was a sort of game where players were sort of coming back into it.
14:12You mentioned the two midfielders there who haven't played a lot of football,
14:14but Ben Epp as well.
14:16He was on loan with a Greek side called Ares,
14:19and I think he picked up an injury there.
14:21Roosen as well was coming back from an injury sustained
14:25towards the back end of last season.
14:26Dennis Serkin, although it was good to see him back,
14:29he's probably not at the levels that he would expect to be yet.
14:32So I just feel like there's a bit of a caveat towards that Gates head loss.
14:37You can't read too much into pre-season.
14:38I did think it was disappointing in places.
14:41I would have really liked to have seen a couple of players sort of stake the claim.
14:45But when you run through the squad and look at the issues
14:47that a couple of them have had in terms of injuries,
14:51I do think it is excusable.
14:53I thought the interesting thing was that Joe Bellingham
14:55was played as the furthest forward in that three.
14:58He was like the 10, wasn't he?
15:00Yeah, and he didn't look too impressive to me in that role.
15:05It's somewhere that he's played before for Sunderland, obviously.
15:07But I thought that was interesting that Liberey chose to play him there
15:11in pre-season, given that he'd stated that he had a clear idea for Job.
15:15So reading between the lines, probably expect him to play there,
15:21unless, of course, he changes it in these upcoming games.
15:24But I think Aoushiche versus Job, I was more impressed with Aoushiche, to be honest,
15:29in the two games.
15:30But good to have the sort of depth there.
15:33But yeah, I just thought that the Gateshead game was a typical pre-season friendly.
15:38And I think Gateshead really put it on Sunderland as well,
15:40in terms of the intensity and the pressure.
15:42They look to be a little bit further ahead in their preparation.
15:46So I thought that was really interesting.
15:48But again, Liberey's still getting his feet under the table
15:52and there's a long, long way to go in pre-season.
15:55And I mentioned this on social media as well,
15:57on the On The Whistle video that we do on YouTube,
16:01that I've seen Sunderland draw in Dortmund
16:04and get relegated the following season under David Moyes.
16:07I've seen us win a lot of pre-season games and be terrible.
16:09I've seen us lose a lot of pre-season games and have a good season.
16:12So it's really, really tough to read too much into it.
16:18Yeah, just going back to the central midfield options as well,
16:20I think we've said several times in this podcast,
16:22it's an area that we think Sunderland need to strengthen in,
16:24particularly that kind of holding midfield role that Corey Evans played in
16:29and obviously didn't play in much last season
16:30because he was injured and has now left the club.
16:32But it was a void that Sunderland have needed to fill.
16:34But just from the two games on Saturday,
16:38I think we'd probably agree that Sunderland
16:39probably still need to strengthen in central midfield.
16:40They've brought in Alan Brown from Preston,
16:42which looks like a shrewd signing to add more experience in there.
16:45But you now just look at the options that are actually in there.
16:47You had Dan Neal and Chris Rigg playing at South Shields.
16:50You then got Embleton.
16:51You've got Metete.
16:52You've got Ekwer.
16:53You've got Brown that's come in.
16:54You've got Bellingham has played further back there.
16:56So there are actually a lot of options in there.
16:58Whether they are the right options to make a balanced squad
17:01that's going to be able to compete at the championship
17:04is a different matter because some of them,
17:05as we said, are coming back from injuries.
17:07Some of them are probably better off playing further forward
17:09and maybe the balance isn't quite right there.
17:11So it'll definitely be interesting to see what Sunderland do in the transfer window
17:15and how they kind of address that midfield.
17:18But we're going to come on to Jack Clark,
17:21who did play in the game at Gateshead,
17:23scored from the penalty spot.
17:26Obviously, he's a player that has had a lot of transfer speculation around him.
17:30Sunderland have turned down offers for him over the last year.
17:33We spoke to him after the game and I asked him about the recent transfer interest.
17:38And this is what he had to say.
17:40He said, obviously, that interest has been there,
17:42but it doesn't affect me.
17:43I'm still wearing red and white at the end of the day.
17:46That's what I'm focusing on.
17:47As long as I'm in a red and white shirt,
17:50that's all I'll be focusing on.
17:51So it seems, James, that has kind of been the case for probably the last year,
17:55that there has been interest in Jack Clark.
17:57Sunderland have turned down offers for him.
17:59He hasn't agreed a new deal with two years left on his contract.
18:02It seems he's quite kind of content playing for Sunderland,
18:05maybe happy playing for Sunderland at a club where he's obviously the key man.
18:10But obviously, he is an ambitious player.
18:12He will have ambitions of going and playing in the Premier League.
18:15He's had that opportunity before with Tottenham,
18:18which didn't really work out.
18:20And he's then dropped back down to play for Sunderland in League One,
18:22helped get them promoted and now is one of Sunderland's biggest assets.
18:26So how would you kind of assess his situation, what he said at the weekend?
18:31And he was also very open as well about kind of the changes that Reggie Labrie has brought in.
18:36He said that having different managers last season, head coaches didn't help,
18:41kind of having different ideas coming in.
18:42But under Labrie, having that clarity will help them.
18:45So what do you kind of make of his situation at the minute, at the start of this summer?
18:50I think he remains really professional, doesn't he?
18:52I thought that was a really well-measured response.
18:55Obviously, there is speculation about him.
18:58It's interesting that me and Phil discussed this in last week's pod, I think as well,
19:03is that that transfer story doesn't seem to have caught fire just yet.
19:08Obviously, there was a lot of interest in January and the summer before with Burnley.
19:13And I think Lazio came in for him in January.
19:17So it's remained quiet about Clark so far.
19:20And I just wonder if Sunderland's valuation has put teams off
19:25because they do want to get the best possible deal.
19:27You have to note as well that Tottenham will be owed some money from any potential Clark sale.
19:33So I'm expecting this one to maybe gather a few more legs
19:38as the transfer window wears on towards deadline day,
19:43when clubs not become desperate but maybe haven't got the targets that they'd like.
19:48And then suddenly Jack Clark becomes an even more attractive offer
19:51and they've got money to spend.
19:52They've maybe sold a player or two and they've got the money there to buy Clark.
19:56So it's interesting.
19:56Me and Phil actually predicted that Clark will probably play for Sunderland again
20:00in the Championship.
20:02I could definitely see that happening.
20:04So I think if I had to put money on it, I would say that he probably does leave.
20:09But I do think there is a chance that he could stay.
20:10You mentioned the length of his contract, two years.
20:14And again, to steal a point from Phil last week,
20:17we saw Ross Stewart didn't he get down to the last year of his contract
20:20and then Sunderland sold for big money.
20:22So it is still possible.
20:23I do think that two years in Sunderland now is probably the sweet spot
20:27if you want to get the best possible deal.
20:29But I would not be disappointed if Jack Clark stays at Sunderland
20:35for the 2024-25 season.
20:37I wouldn't mind that at all.
20:39And I don't think they would sell him in the January.
20:42So I think if he stays in the summer, I think he'd probably stay for the season.
20:46Chances of him signing a new deal, we understand that's probably fairly slim
20:50unless Sunderland get promoted.
20:53So there's probably not going to be much movement there
20:55unless there's a change of heart from the player's side.
20:57So I think one to watch and one that will certainly develop
21:01as the summer goes on and clubs sort of step up their interest.
21:04Because at the moment, I think it's fair to say, Joe, that we've seen
21:08some transfer business, but it's probably been slowed by the Euros, you would say.
21:13And then you'll get that knock-on effect now with players returning,
21:17players being bought, players being sold.
21:18And that will start to filter down from the Premier League
21:20to the Championship through the AFL.
21:23So I think it's definitely one to watch.
21:26I don't think it's a sure thing that he's going to stay by any means.
21:30Yeah, it is.
21:30I think the dilemma for Sunderland is obviously Clark's got two years left
21:33on his contract, as you say.
21:34And if Sunderland are going to get a big fee for him,
21:37I know Sunderland got a decent fee for Ross Stewart when he had a year left.
21:39But if Sunderland are going to cash in and get a big fee,
21:42probably the time is now.
21:44And if they wait till later in the summer,
21:47say when the Championship season has started
21:50and the team comes in with a big bid and Clark gets sold,
21:53then that leaves a huge void in the team.
21:54The difference with Ross Stewart was that
21:56he'd been injured for most of the past year
21:59and it didn't really feel like you were losing.
22:02You were obviously losing a key player,
22:03but not a player who hadn't been as influential
22:06the previous year with Clark.
22:08Obviously, he was Sunderland's top scorer with 15 goals.
22:11That's a huge amount of goals that Sunderland need to replace
22:14and no one else was really kind of stepping up in the team last year.
22:17So it's going to be hard to sign a direct replacement
22:20if Jack Clark is sold to bring in someone
22:22who's then going to score 15 goals.
22:24But you'd probably want to spend that money
22:25and maybe bring in a couple of players
22:27who can step up and replace those goals.
22:30So that's the dilemma with Sunderland.
22:32But certainly from when I spoke to him,
22:34I spoke really well, to be honest.
22:36As you say, professional, kind of said the situation as it is,
22:40didn't kind of shy away.
22:41There has been interest and obviously, as I said before,
22:43he is ambitious.
22:44He will want to play in the Premier League.
22:46But at the minute, I think he's quite happy playing for Sunderland
22:49and he'll just kind of see what happens
22:52and we'll see what offers come in
22:54and whether Sunderland will accept it.
22:56I think, as you mentioned, Joe, as well earlier,
22:57he knows about making the wrong move at the wrong time, doesn't he?
23:00Obviously, it didn't quite work out for him from Leeds.
23:03He went on loan a couple of times
23:05and sort of drifted until he came to Sunderland.
23:07So I think he'll be very, very aware of that.
23:10And I think with a player like Jack Clarke as well,
23:13he just wants to play football, doesn't he?
23:15So I think similar to the Anthony Patterson story,
23:18in a sense that it has to be right for the player as well.
23:22I think people talk a lot about money
23:24and that will be a motivating factor, don't get me wrong.
23:27The Premier League clubs can pay massive wages,
23:29but I suspect Clarke's probably looking at any potential move
23:33and thinking, is this right for me?
23:35Where am I going to play?
23:36Who's the manager going to be?
23:37What system are they going to be playing?
23:40That all makes a massive difference.
23:41And at the moment, at Sunderland, he's the main man.
23:43He's enjoying his football.
23:44He knows he's going to play.
23:45So I imagine that's a huge factor as well.
23:48Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?
23:49If he went to a team in the Premier League that are maybe mid-table
23:52and then he sat on the bench and he's not playing every week,
23:55he'd probably then been better off playing at Sunderland,
23:57playing in front of huge crowds.
24:00You're the main man at a championship club
24:02that hopefully will be pushing for a playoff space again this season.
24:06So it's a big call for him.
24:08Stability as well is important.
24:09If he'd have gone to Burnley, if Burnley had upped their bid
24:12and he'd be back in the championship and looking for another move again.
24:18So that's always interesting as well.
24:20What level of club or what are their prospects?
24:22So yeah, definitely want to watch.
24:24And I definitely don't think we've heard the end of this one.
24:28Yeah, definitely a side that's probably got a lot more to run this summer.
24:31But one player that Sunderland have brought in over the past week
24:36is midfielder Alan Brown, 29-year-old midfielder.
24:40He's had over a decade at Preston, was offered a new deal there at Preston,
24:45turned that down to sign a three-year contract at Sunderland.
24:50Played a lot of games for Preston.
24:51He's played over 400 games.
24:52He's capped in the side.
24:53So a lot of experience that probably a lot of fans and us have been asking for
24:58that the squad needs.
25:00Experience, not just necessarily in terms of age,
25:02but in terms of championship appearances.
25:04And he's got a lot of those under his belt.
25:07So kind of initial thoughts on that signing from what I've kind of read about him
25:11and seen from other reporters from the press.
25:14Then he seems like his best position is possibly as a box-to-box midfielder,
25:18someone who can get up and down the pitch.
25:20But he is quite versatile and can slot in different positions.
25:22So what are your kind of initial thoughts on that signing, James?
25:26I'm really interested by it.
25:27And I think it probably relates to the point we were discussing a couple of minutes ago
25:32about midfield balance.
25:33Obviously, there's a lot of players in those positions,
25:38sort of 6, 8 and 10, as you mentioned, you went through them.
25:42And I think in terms of Sunderland's recruitment going forward,
25:44a lot might depend on where Brown sort of sees himself.
25:48He's 29 now, as you mentioned, box-to-box.
25:51I've also heard Preston fans say that he likes to play a bit further forward at times.
25:56Is he entering that stage of his career where he sees himself dropping back a bit
26:00into that sixth role that could maybe allow Dan Neil to play a bit further forward?
26:05Or does he still see himself as a box-to-box midfielder?
26:08I think it's a really interesting question.
26:11But in terms of the signing itself,
26:12I think it's what Sunderland fans have been after for a while.
26:15And it's pleasing that those sort of recruitment concerns have been addressed.
26:1929 years old.
26:21But in terms of his championship appearances,
26:24he's on over 400 senior appearances.
26:26He's obviously a Republic of Ireland international as well.
26:29He captained Preston.
26:31So he certainly adds experience.
26:33As we mentioned on last week's Raw as well, his injury record is absolutely superb.
26:38He tends to play over 35 games in a season in all competitions.
26:44Usually a mainstay in Preston's team.
26:46So I'm really interested to see how he does.
26:48Bradley Deck and Corey Evans were the two senior players at the club last season,
26:52but they barely played due to injury.
26:55So I think it's a huge positive.
26:57I just hope Sunderland don't stop there.
26:59I think there's one or two older heads
27:03compared to the rest of the squad needed, I think, in different positions.
27:07Simon Moore has obviously come in.
27:09He's an experienced goalkeeper, so that'll help as well.
27:13And of course, there's the argument that the likes of Dan Ballard, Dan Neil,
27:17Dennis Sirk and Jack Clark, Patrick Roberts are all a season more experienced now.
27:23Obviously, Luke O'Neill is a big leader in the group.
27:25So it's interesting to see how that sort of dynamic evolves,
27:30both in terms of midfield position and just general experience
27:34and the makeup of the squad now it's a year older.
27:37Yeah, I think that was definitely something that was lacking, wasn't it?
27:39That kind of experience in the dressing room.
27:41You lost a lot of experienced players last summer.
27:45Like we've mentioned it before, Danny Bart, Lyndon Gooch,
27:47who maybe necessarily wouldn't necessarily have been kind of regular starters,
27:51but just their kind of influence around the dressing room.
27:53And I think Brown seems like a very solid signing,
27:56looks like a good character from kind of the reports we've heard from Preston.
27:59And kind of initially, I think right now it looks like
28:03if you're making your strongest start in XI, I'd still probably put Dan Neil as the sixth,
28:06just because I think he looks more comfortable on the ball.
28:09Whether Sunderland bring in another player that could go into the number six position,
28:13which would allow Dan Neil to go further forward, that remains to be seen.
28:16But right now, I think if you're making your strongest XI,
28:19probably Dan Neil is the sixth, maybe Brown's alongside him as like more of an eight.
28:23Then it's interesting to see where Chris Riggle fit in.
28:26Obviously, as we mentioned, still only 17.
28:28So I don't think it's realistic to expect him to play every single week in the championship.
28:33He's probably going to be in and out of side.
28:35He'll probably have some dips in form,
28:36but obviously a very exciting prospect to have there.
28:39Brown looks like a very shrewd signing and definitely improves in area of the pitch,
28:43which we've said for the last year, at least, that Sunderland probably needs
28:47to strengthen in that area. Is he the kind of natural Corey Evans replacement?
28:51I'm not so sure, but I think there's possibly still a sign that needs to be made there.
28:57Or if they see Dan Neil as that regular number six, it'll be interesting to see
29:02how that progresses.
29:03But just in terms of kind of the rest of the squad, James, now that Brown has been signed,
29:08where do you think are the kind of next priorities for Sunderland?
29:11We've mentioned up front, I think obviously a striker is probably the next position that a lot
29:15of people would kind of target next, but are there any other areas?
29:19Or is that kind of strike position the main priority still, do you think?
29:24Yeah, I think it's really interesting.
29:25Obviously, a lot depends on outgoings.
29:28You mentioned, you know, if Clark goes, you need to replace his goals.
29:33I'm not necessarily sure you need to replace him as a left winger,
29:37if that makes sense, because I reckon Sunderland might already think that they've got sort of
29:43his successors at the club in Mundell.
29:45Roosen could play there.
29:46Obviously, Jefferson Bennett as well could play there.
29:49But I think if Clark goes, you might not necessarily see another left winger come in,
29:53but you would need to replace his 15 goals, wouldn't you?
29:56So whether that would be spread out over a couple of strikers,
30:00you know, a goal scoring midfielder, or I don't know how you would do that.
30:03Perhaps another left winger, I'm not sure.
30:06But I think, yeah, that would absolutely be a priority.
30:09They've got to sign an experienced goal scoring striker, in my opinion.
30:15Someone that can get 10 goals, 15 goals, would help the squad massively.
30:18I do agree with you.
30:19I think that number six position is interesting.
30:22Obviously, you know, Metete doesn't really play there.
30:27You wonder what his future holds.
30:29You wouldn't be confident in him going into a season as sort of that sort of sixth cover.
30:34Obviously, Dan Neal playing there quite a bit as well.
30:37But I think some of the fans would like to see him sort of let off the leash.
30:41I think because he's a fantastic player, Dan Neal.
30:45Other transfer priorities?
30:49Possibly at centre-back, Mebis.
30:53But that's interesting that Ajay Lisa actually played at centre-back in the case of him,
30:57and that Yelder played there.
30:58Yelder's back.
30:59So that is an interesting...
31:01And obviously, you've got to see him in Triantis as well.
31:04Triantis is an interesting one because he played in midfield at him.
31:07So it'll be interesting to see where Sunderland play him.
31:11But I think there's transfer priorities,
31:14but a lot really depends on who Sunderland allow to leave
31:18and who they allow to go out on loan.
31:20So Metete could go, Triantis could go, you know,
31:23Embelton could go as well.
31:24And then all of a sudden, you look and think, right,
31:26OK, we actually need a few more bodies now.
31:30You know, Bennett as well.
31:31I mentioned him.
31:32He potentially could go out on loan again.
31:34Maienda as well.
31:35So if the right opportunity comes up for these players to go and play,
31:39Sunderland won't stand in the way.
31:41We know that.
31:41And then all of a sudden, you've got a few more holes to fill.
31:44So, yeah, really interesting summer ahead and hard to predict, really.
31:49You mentioned Triantis there.
31:50Just to kind of round off a bit of injury news,
31:52the only senior player that didn't play in either the South Shields
31:56or the Gateshead game were Triantis and Abdullah Barr,
31:59who we understand both picked up injuries.
32:02So weren't involved.
32:02We're not entirely sure the length of those setbacks.
32:05And also Simon Moore picked up a knock.
32:08So he wasn't involved either.
32:10The other two, I think, are known in Shields and Niall Huggins,
32:14who have got long-term injuries.
32:17Possibly won't expect to see either of them back before the end of this year.
32:20So fullback could be an area, actually,
32:24given the injury records of Sergin and Huggins.
32:28On paper, Sunderland have got a lot of fullbacks,
32:30but a couple of them do tend to spend a lot of time injured.
32:32Obviously, Alise can play there as well,
32:34but he spent a bit of time out injured.
32:35So that's interesting.
32:36I think it depends where he sees Alise,
32:38because if you look at Alise and Sergin,
32:40you've then, arguably on paper, got two strong left-backs there.
32:44But if he sees Alise more as a centre-half,
32:46then potentially you need backup for Dennis Sergin.
32:49Then you've got Heumann and Pembele on the other side.
32:51So it looks on paper like you've got two options for both positions,
32:54but it depends with Alise if he does move into a centre-back spot
32:59or if he changes the system.
33:00If he does go to a back three, like we saw him play in France-Libre,
33:06then maybe Alise and Sergin can play in the same team.
33:08So that'll be interesting to watch out for.
33:10Sunderland are away in Spain this week.
33:13Our colleague Phil Smith is out there for the ECHO.
33:16He'll be flying out there over the next few days.
33:18Sunderland have two pre-season friendlies scheduled out there in Spain.
33:22So we'll bring you the full coverage of that as well.
33:24It'll be interesting to see what sort of tactics and teams
33:28that Libre plays.
33:29But just to round off a final bit of transfer news,
33:33another player who wasn't involved over the weekend,
33:36either South Shields or Gateshead, was young goalkeeper Matty Young.
33:40He looks set to leave on loan.
33:42Looks like Salford are the frontrunners to sign him.
33:46That's why, as you mentioned earlier in the podcast, James,
33:49that the trialist goalkeeper, Blondie, we're calling him,
33:52formerly of Stoke, he played against South Shields.
33:56But looks like a good move, doesn't it, for Matty Young?
33:58Another loan move for him.
33:59And we also expect some of Sunderland's other goalkeepers,
34:02people like Adam Richardson, perhaps to leave on loan.
34:04And that's why we're seeing this trialist goalkeeper come in
34:07and perhaps he'll sign and then get some games in their 21 set-up.
34:11But these younger goalkeepers, people like Young, like Richardson,
34:14loan moves, looks like they would benefit then, wouldn't they?
34:18Yeah, I think so.
34:18Obviously, Matty Young had a really good stint at Darlington last season.
34:21He's really highly rated.
34:23Obviously, England Youth International.
34:25But he wouldn't play behind Patterson as things stand.
34:28So, another loan move to the National League will do him the world of good.
34:32I mean, you just have to look at another loan move to the AFL
34:36would do him the world of good after having been at the National League last year.
34:39You only have to look at England's goalkeeper last night.
34:41Jordan Pickford came up through the Academy of Light.
34:43He had loans in the National League and then went up to the AFL
34:46and then came back to Sunderland and broke in.
34:48So, it's really sensible by the club.
34:50And the player, I think, wants to play football as well.
34:53Similar to Chris Rigg, really, in a sense that he wants to experience things
34:57and play as many games as he can.
34:59So, I think that's what will probably happen this week, I'm told.
35:02Notts County were interested, but they ended up signing Alex Bass from Sunderland.
35:07So, it does look like Salford at the moment.
35:08But I think there's a lot of interest in him, actually, understandably.
35:12So, yeah, I expect that one to happen.
35:14And I think, obviously, the Academy manager, Robin Nicholls, hinted at this
35:19when Dan Cameron signed his first professional contract at Sunderland
35:23that he may go out on loan at some point this season.
35:26I wouldn't actually expect that during the transfer window.
35:29It'll probably happen afterwards at some point during the regular season
35:32because you can go out on loan to the National League at any time.
35:35Adam Richardson, they were trying to get him out on loan last season
35:39before he got an injury.
35:41He then ended up coming back and playing for the under-21s
35:43as they got to the final.
35:44He's very highly rated as well.
35:46So, I think they'd like to get him some experience.
35:48And as you say, that allows Blondie, if he does sign, to come in
35:52and play for the under-21s.
35:55There's obviously Kelechi Chibuetsi as well.
35:58So, it's just, I think, cover.
36:00Obviously, Simon Newell's there.
36:01But you do need goalkeepers to sort of move up and down the age groups.
36:05But yeah, it's, again, another quite interesting area of the club at the moment,
36:11goalkeepers, because we always seem to be blessed with good goalkeepers.
36:14And we've got a couple at the moment, which is good to see.
36:18Yeah, and obviously Anthony Patterson as well, as we mentioned before.
36:20There's been Premier League interest in him,
36:22not expecting him to leave this summer.
36:24But you just never know, do you?
36:26And I just don't think the goalkeeper one's an interesting one.
36:31Yeah, I think it is interesting with Patterson.
36:34Like, the noises sort of coming out of the club
36:36suggest that they don't expect him to go.
36:40From the conversations I've had, if he was to go,
36:43it would have to be, like, a really attractive move
36:46and a move that worked.
36:47Similar to what I said about Clark,
36:49is that he would need to go and, you know, play a certain amount of games
36:54if he was going to go to a top-level club,
36:56because he's been linked with Arsenal, Liverpool.
37:00There has been interest, obviously Wolves,
37:02Leicester going back a couple of years as well.
37:05If he's going to go to one of those top clubs in the Premier League,
37:08he's probably going to be second choice.
37:10So he's not likely to do that
37:12unless he's given a really attractive offer on good money
37:16with a guarantee of Cup games or European games,
37:20with a view to then integrating them as number one in a couple of seasons.
37:24So, as always, as we've said a million times on this podcast,
37:27the caveat to that is that it could all change
37:30and Anthony Patterson could go as the window winds down,
37:32but it just doesn't feel like one that's really expected.
37:35He's actually, what's his contract, Joe?
37:37His contract's, is it three or four years?
37:392028, I think, he signed the deal last year.
37:43So he's under contract for a long time.
37:45I think from the player's point of view as well,
37:47he's playing week in, week out.
37:48He had that amazing run of games, didn't he?
37:51Was over 100 consecutive starts for Sunderland
37:54until he was replaced by Nathan Bishop for the last home game of the season.
37:59So he had that incredible run.
38:01He's learning his trade.
38:02He's playing in front of a big crowd.
38:04He's obviously a local lad as well.
38:05So it just doesn't feel to me like now is the time.
38:10If that makes sense for Anthony Patterson,
38:11it may well come in the future, but I think his stock's on the rise.
38:14I think it's only going to get higher
38:16and I don't think it makes sense at this moment.
38:19But you never know if a Premier League club comes in with silly money,
38:22then it could make sense for all parties.
38:24But I don't see that one happening personally.
38:27Yeah, well, there's certainly a lot of transfer news
38:30to keep across or transfer speculation.
38:32And obviously pre-season is underway now.
38:36Sunderland, as I said before, they are flying off to Spain this week.
38:40And as I said, our Echo colleague Phil Smith is there
38:43and he'll be covering all angles of that
38:46as well as the two pre-season games they're playing overseas.
38:50So in the meantime, you can head over to the Sunderland Echo website
38:53for all the latest news.
38:54And we'll be back with another podcast next week after those games in Spain.
39:00In the meantime, please do leave us a review
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