Brainstorm Tech 2024: From Crashes to Ashes
Kara Swisher, Author, Burn Book; Host, On with Kara Swisher; Editor-at-Large, New York Magazine Interviewer: Andrew Nusca, FORTUNE
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00:00How you doing? I'm great. How are you?
00:03Less good to this morning. I was sort of plotting my escape to Canada now that David Sachs is in charge, but
00:09so I
00:11Got a question for you. Oh, ha ha
00:15No one's ever done that before
00:17Yes
00:19So you've been called a lot of things, but my favorite description is one you called yourself. Yeah tech irritant
00:25Yes, that's on my well in my form. Well. I'm still on Twitter, but I don't use it right yeah
00:30You had a few bones to pick with several technologists just in the last 24 hours
00:33I have David Sachs Elon Musk. Yeah, Ben Horowitz. Yeah explains me
00:39What your issue is well? There was a couple things one was
00:43The installation of JD Vance as their butler in in the US government
00:49They've been you know you they've been pushing him up for years. He's quite inexperienced, but nonetheless. He's now you know one
00:56One second away from power essentially if Trump wins
01:01and so I I was
01:04Somewhat you know I kept seeing this was happening with these people for years and years and everyone was like oh
01:10They're not interested in politics. They're not interested in this, but they are they're very much interested in power and control of
01:16The government and they have disdain for the government
01:19I wouldn't say hatred just disdain utter disdain, and they want to burn it down and so
01:26You know it's been something Peter Thiel has talked about Marc Andreessen
01:29All of them over the years, and this is the instead of you know doing it in a violent way
01:35They've done it using their money and power right the means they have to do so and now they've
01:40Managed to even upend Rupert Murdoch who wanted a different vice presidential candidate
01:44I'm not naive and don't think that rich people don't control
01:49You know levers of power over the many many decades or centuries our country's been in power
01:54But this is sort of an explicit grab for power that has worked really nicely for them sure JD Vance
02:00Yeah, tell me your concerns about him as a candidate. Oh so many so many and vast
02:05Well, he hates women, but let's let's get let's put that aside
02:09If you I'm not joking about it go pay attention to what he's saying and the things he said about you know
02:15Rape and beating of women and stuff like that and about no abortions whatsoever anywhere not so great on
02:21LGBTQ it hates doesn't like the gays. I'm a woman gay, so that's not good for me, but
02:27You know he took a time out of his busy senatorial
02:31Thing to attack me when I was interviewing John Fetterman right it was so bizarre and strange to have a US senator attack you
02:38And tell you you didn't believe in the future. I have four kids
02:41He only has two I think so I believe in the future twice as much as he does
02:45And so it was weird, you know he's weird and petty and small-minded and
02:53You know he's created a persona around himself
02:57You know that he came from Appalachia in fact he grew up in Middletown, which is a suburb of Dayton sure
03:04My grandparents came from rural West Virginia, and I don't sit here and you know talk with an accent and say I'm an Appalachian girl
03:10I'm not I grew up in a really nice place
03:12You know he had his parents who were hit a mother who had a drug problem. That's absolutely true
03:17I think he put a lot of tropes around people of that. I have a lot of relatives there. They're not they're not
03:24Constitutionally unable to be good people he sort of created this broken people
03:30Image which I thought was there's so many good books about the problems of people in that area
03:36But he's a good writer and a good
03:38He's a bit of a fabulist I think
03:41But let me ask you so from a promote from a thing he I met him when he was in tech
03:45He was there very briefly. He worked for mithril. He worked. He had a bite. He worked for a biotech thing
03:51He worked for Steve Case for a very short time sure
03:54very
03:56very
03:57Disliking of Trump that's already been seen very different and shifted on a dime
04:03I find that you know. I don't know unsettling
04:05He suddenly loves Trump. He's you know he called Trump American Hitler which I don't call Trump American Hitler like it's just
04:12That's like a real far thing to say and so you may you may think that I don't think that but and I've
04:18I mean the Nazi regime was my minor in college, so
04:23I think it's very you have to really understand what you're saying when you say something like that
04:27And he obviously didn't so the shift is unusual the lack of experience his
04:32America-first kind of attitude if you go back to America first not wanting to engage in the world
04:39so we don't just have and he's a creature of Elon Peter and
04:45and to a lesser extent David David Sachs who's kind of their minion
04:50They're very brilliant Pete. I would say Elon and Peter are brilliant David is
04:54Not so much. Yeah, we just had a session earlier this week about u.s.
04:59China policy and it seemed like we were heading toward a cold war or even a hot one absolutely
05:04So look you're concerned about not just JD, but all these folks
05:08Chasing power changing the direction of the country. What do we do about?
05:12I'm not worried look people the country changes direction all the time. It's just they're totally unable to understand the issues like
05:19Just the idea that they know what they're talking about is really quite disturbing. They have no they have no
05:25Expertise and yet they continue to say things like out of their mouths, which is really amazing
05:31I mean at one point, you know, it can be from the very silly at one point
05:35Elon was lecturing women about caesareans, which I know he has a lot of kids, but I had a caesarean and I don't really welcome
05:42Information from him about says there who's saying sure people with caesareans have bigger heads because they come out better and they're smarter
05:47it's something strange and I was
05:49You know like I had one my both my kid who was not caesarean is in fact smarter, but okay fine
05:56That's whatever. It was kind of ridiculous. And so I think the the the the I'm worried about
06:02Influence of China. I'm very worried about the influence of China of Russia and their business interests there
06:08I think it's really problematic when a very small group of incredibly wealthy people
06:14Control the access to the levers of power and have really bad and disturbing and toxic information
06:21About everything from from how we should interact with China or Ukraine or trans people
06:29You know and the same thing with Andreessen Horowitz who just decided to back Trump not a surprise to me
06:34I've spent a lot of time with Marc Andreessen over the years and it to say he is an anti-trump
06:39Yeah, he loves himself and that's and money and that's pretty much it. Yeah, Ben is the same way and
06:45You know, they don't they don't care about the other parts of these of the platforms and to me if you're a more rounded person
06:53You know Ben himself has a trans child
06:55Elon has a trans child like and the hateful things been to say that he's a trans child
07:01I don't think he's a trans child. I don't think he's a trans kid. I don't think he's a trans kid
07:06Like and the hateful things Ben does not say hateful things publicly
07:10But Elon certainly does and so you have to wonder about that. Yeah. Yeah. Look I am going to be righteous
07:16It's just weird and I am going to be twisted come to the audience for questions. So please prepare them
07:21So but what I want to know is I want to turn this to action
07:25What is to be done if you're not liking where things are going the votes are there?
07:30I don't know what to say there. Their plan is working there
07:33you know, I feel like I'm in the middle of a James Bond plot where the villain actually wins, but
07:39You know their play, you know, I it there's all this
07:42Disarray in the Democratic Party and it's a joke Dems and disarray. They were everything was going well
07:47but things happen and obviously they have a candidate who is a
07:50Very they've been a very effective president in many ways and at the same time has age problems
07:55I get attacked a lot for saying that but a man is old. So is Trump by the way
07:59I
08:00Scott and I on pivot always talk about you know, we have of age gating of young people to social media. We also believe in age
08:08Gating for elderly people in positions of power Supreme Court federal judges all kinds of companies do that companies have board age
08:16You know age limits
08:18police firemen
08:19Everybody has an age limit except for Supreme Court justices who are who are who are appointed for life
08:25Which is an astonishing thing. Yeah, I don't want it for
08:29Democratic-leaning or Republican-leaning. I think when you get past a certain age, you should retire. Yeah
08:35even if you're able, you know 75 has been talked about and so
08:39There's a real problem with with people. I think today two-thirds of Democrats want Biden to step down at the same time
08:46He was correctly. He's saying he was chosen by
08:4914 million people in primary states. That is absolutely true
08:53Sure, so it's a real problem because there's there's arguments to be made on both sides
08:58It's a healthy argument. I think within the Democratic Party though. It's getting a little ugly now
09:02Yeah, if you even indicate that you're for one side of the other the other side
09:07There's sort of a so it's not a civil war but a real argument showing on now
09:12Look, you're a huge politics fan. Obviously, you know the history you've also been covering technology for your career
09:18When you wrote your book, which is partially a memoir. Yeah, it is
09:22Did it give you in the act of writing did it give you any perspective over these forces of power fight?
09:27Yes, I mean, I think the it's so interesting what's happening today politically is and I do live in Washington now
09:34Which is an important viewpoint. I gathered. Yeah, I did. No
09:37well
09:38I also interviewed lots of tech people and media people and Hollywood people and I traveled extensively, but I think that
09:46What I was writing in the book was the first line of the book was which was so it was capitalism after all
09:51Yeah, everything they do has to do with their business self-interest, which again, I'm okay. I've started lots of businesses
09:57I don't have a problem with capitalism
09:59I what I think it is is that they cosplay being heroes and
10:03Saving the world and I'd rather they act like investment bankers who we all know why they're there which is to make money
10:09and so that the whole
10:11The whole point of my book was don't be fooled. They're not here to save you
10:16They're not here to do anything but do what a pharmaceutical executive is doing
10:20And so this was the journey of these people who sort of pretended they were Star Trek and were in fact
10:27literally just
10:29Moneymakers as well they are and that's what I was trying to write about is that this is and that we have given them no
10:35restrictions
10:37Ability to make untold amounts of money
10:40Off of the federal the government paid for the Internet who benefited from that a very small group of people
10:46Same thing with AI they will do whatever it takes to have power and create many states
10:51And I think any power unchecked is dangerous
10:54And so that's what I wanted to point out was the shift of these people from we're here to save the world which they weren't
11:02To we think we'd like to own the world and tell everybody what to do. Sure, which is the point
11:07We're at right now the pursuit of power. All right, let's go to the audience for questions opinions
11:12contradictions
11:13Anyone anyone? Yes back here. Thank you your name and affiliation. Please Lisa O'Connor with Accenture
11:21And I read your book amazing huge fan
11:24Thank you. There was one thing in the book that really struck me and you said you were brokenhearted
11:29Yes, could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, the second part of the book is a tech love story
11:33you know, it's a it's it is I believe in the in the
11:37incredible effects of technology on health care on
11:41Climate change tech on all these things like tech could really be a uniter. I was a Star Trek person
11:46There's an interview I did with Steve Jobs or he and I talked about this
11:50He goes I want Star Trek which is it's it's a fictional thing
11:53but it's the idea of a technology for the good of humanity and it has so many good things and I think it just became
11:59a profit-making
12:01Screw people take their shit shoplift their content. I mean there was just a really good thing by
12:07Julia Angwin is has a great group that they're working on stuff where they were showing they're just scraping everybody's content in AI
12:14They're just taking it
12:15That's which is what they did before and so, you know
12:18I I was heartbroken because I there was so many possibilities and I in part believe some of them right a great deal of them
12:25And of the promise of it
12:27And so I think that the heartbreaking part is there still is that right that there still is a possibility that we all share
12:34but what's happened is the wealth has become concentrated the
12:38Inequity has become so pronounced now and it's creating divisions that are unnecessary. They're unnecessary
12:44And so, you know this you know, very typical there are attacks on DEI fine
12:49It went a little too far big fucking deal
12:51Like so what like the the the the intent of it is a good one
12:56diversity equity inclusion the opposite of diversity equity inclusion if you just think about it is
13:02homogeneity
13:03unfairness
13:05Exclusion what a world what a great world that is. Give me a fucking break
13:08It's meant to be so that we
13:10We create a better playing field if you listen to them long enough like that right now this this heinous attack on
13:17Former President Trump, they're blaming DEI because there was a woman's secret service
13:22That is not what happened here, right? There's a lot of things and they'll do an investigation
13:27But that this is typical. It was DEI that it caused the Alaska Airlines thing. It's the it's just sick
13:35It's like crazy to be doing that
13:37It was an accident it was a failure in the in the company that was running
13:45Alaska Airlines, right? That's what it was Lockheed. It was anyway
13:48I just get exhausted by the blame the victimization when the world's richest people act like victims
13:56It's it's really an astonishing thing to see, you know, and I'm a part of me a given
14:02I do have four kids. I
14:05Sometimes think of it in a kind way, which is I'm so sorry. You didn't get hugged enough as children, but you're 52 now
14:12Therapy and stop taking out your childhood trauma on us because that's what's happening and it's so unfortunate because there's so much wealth and
14:20Amazing entrepreneurship that could happen across our country
14:23I really believe in entrepreneurship and you know
14:26I there's a scene in the book where
14:28Someone is like I'm saying you've got to do something about in
14:32Inequality inequality the wealth gap is getting so pronounced by the numbers and I said because you're either gonna have to fix it or armor
14:39plate your Tesla, right because that's where it's going and I
14:43Was looking at this person. I thought oh he wants to armor plate his Tesla. That's what he would like
14:49Actually, the equality does not bother these people a lack of empathy and you see it everywhere whether it's around women trans people
14:57Marginalized people they could give a fuck. They really could I'm sorry
15:01They don't and by the way, they don't have to they want to be unpleasant cruel people fine
15:06That's great. But I don't want them to impose it on the rest of us, which is what they're
15:11Planning just so you're aware. That's what what's gonna happen. So, all right, we've got a whole lot of questions
15:17So, let's see if we can burn through them quickly way in the back over there. Yes, please
15:20I Alex gross with easy press. I just want to say your approach to just speaking to power
15:26Yeah is
15:29Actually, that's kind of part of my question here is like to maintain that posture in today's world
15:33I think it's really hard for business owners. It is business in general to be that
15:38Authentic I guess or transparent about what they think. Yeah
15:41Are you talking about how you actually go about living your life and what you I guess maybe would
15:47Hope to inspire and other people with how you're currently living. Well, I've always not
15:52It's I've always been like this I've always not given a fuck like right, you know
15:56I mean, it's not that I don't give a fuck is that's like I don't care. That's not true. I care a great deal
16:00That's a very different thing. I don't not
16:04Having four children must say to you that I care about the future that I care about things that I really believe in
16:12Democracy, I really believe in a lot of things. And so when people tell me nonsensical things, I just cannot
16:19Stop saying it and that includes on the left, by the way
16:21These ridiculous not being able to question Biden's age. Stop it. Stop it. Like I get it. It's a problem
16:28We we have a problem here, but pretend we don't have one. It's kind of ridiculous, right?
16:33I don't know what to do by the way, but it's at the same time. So I think I'm just like that
16:38I spent a lot of time. I have an inability when someone says something stupid not to say. Oh, that's really stupid
16:44Like I just don't know what happened. I think it's a good thing
16:48I was you know, it is a little
16:51One of the things I did on the back of the book, which I really enjoyed it was for myself is instead of doing blurbs
16:56I don't like asking people rich people for favors or famous people
16:59So on the back of my book
17:01I got all the insults of all these jackasses and I put them on the back of David Sachs is on there
17:06I'm the most virulently their vitriolic. I'm surprised he knew the word vitriolic voice in the tech ecosystem
17:13Elon called me an asshole. I put them all on the back and I called it praise for Kara Swisher
17:17And it go there's two more pages inside
17:21So, I don't know. I just
17:24Listen, I try to also be fair if they do something great
17:26I'm often praising Elon around, you know, the strides he made with electric cars or the stuff that's going on in space
17:34Although I worry about private ownership of space
17:37Yeah, we had a session on that. Yeah, it's worrisome. I see the cost. I understand why but and the innovate
17:43They can be more innovative. That's absolutely true
17:46So, I don't know I don't know see if we can go to the next question
17:50Everybody's really sure. I'm happy to answer all the questions. My name is Jessica Matthews. I'm a reporter at fortune
17:55I wanted to ask are there any venture capitalists or tech people who you think will come out?
18:02And support Donald Trump in the coming weeks that have not yet
18:05I think they thought they're like sheeple. I call them sheeple
18:09I did a famous article where I call them sheeple
18:11Essentially when they when they all went to Trump Tower all the tech leaders, that's how the book opens
18:17I'm not sure. I'm not I think all the little ones will there's a whole pack of them
18:22They're like a little there's a little gang with that. I'm not even slightly scared of you know
18:27If you say boo to them, they run they do a lot of manliness, but if they're not
18:30They're not very manly in that regard in the traditional sense
18:34Yeah, I think the would have thought some of them will feel compelled to either say nothing or join it that essentially
18:41This group because they're worrying about funding the worried about stuff
18:44So you'll see a lot of I think there'll be a lot of Nikki Haley's I'll say there'll be a lot of Nikki Haley's
18:49Which is it's so embarrassing
18:51She she has ostentatious ambition and so she has to go and bend the knee to Trump
18:57Which she did it was such an embarrassment last night for her, but her ambition is so vast
19:02That she had to do it or she felt she had she didn't have to do it. She did
19:07But I think you'll see a lot of Nikki Haley's who don't like Trump, but we'll do it in order to not be out of
19:13the
19:13Ecosystem others, you know read there. They're relentlessly attacking Reid Hoffman right now
19:19Who I really do admire. I think he's been he's tried to get along with them
19:23But now and I told them don't they'll come at you read. It's like no, they're my friends
19:27I'm like they will fuck you if they can if they need to and they do they're doing it right now
19:32You know, I read well, I think we'll stick firm
19:35Some others like Reed Hastings will probably stay firm
19:39But you know, it's hard
19:41I think it's really hard in that ecosystem not to be a sheep not to be a Nikki Haley and there's clearly a
19:46Great division opening up. There's a division. Let's go to this one right up here
19:51Hey Cara Healy from boom pops most right up from Noe Valley
19:55So we always hear growing up that a loud minority can lead to massive social change
19:59Yeah, see that but I feel like it's morphed now to this universe of extremes
20:03you have this bipartisan universe where we're just screaming at each other and there's not really a role for like
20:08Productive discourse and and I kind of feel like the majority of folks are in the middle just like hey, we just want to like
20:13Hello. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, like read books and think and not idiots. And so the question is
20:18One who's talking for the middle? Who's like, what's the role of media in that? And where do we talk?
20:23Well, it's interesting because no matter what you do if the attacks are relentless
20:27I've just gotten off of social media largely. I just watch really pleasant videos on threads now, you know, like cooking videos
20:33But largely I've sort of shut down comments everywhere because it's point. It's it's it's deleterious and I'm pretty tough and I don't like it
20:41I think I have this theory that there's a quiet middle, you know, remember the silent majority of the Nixon administration
20:47I that was absolutely true
20:49There's all these people are kind of like a little too much with the 1968 stuff a little
20:53Little too much with the John Byrne Society and they sat and they didn't know what to do
20:57And I do think there's a silent majority of people who are like, I just want to raise my kids
21:02I just
21:03Stop beating up on, you know gay people let them get married like they're just like that. They're like what the fuck?
21:08It was interesting right after the Trump shooting
21:10They went to a lot of these Trump towns and we're hoping to get sort of angry like, you know
21:16the Democrats are responsible for it and a lot of the people and I have a lot of relatives in these areas were like
21:22It's not Joe Biden's fault that he got shot
21:24It's a sad young man
21:26Like they were so reasonable and when you actually go out to these places and I spend a lot of time in some of these
21:31Places much more reasonable much less angry
21:35But they you know, there's a line in my book where it's like enragement equals engagement, right?
21:40And so in rate getting people enraged and then the media does tend to like focus on those people
21:46I do think there's a lot more people who are just like, you know
21:49It's not Joe Biden's fault that he got shot or it's not, you know
21:53Whatever the whatever side you have to be on there are a lot more reasonable
21:56But what I do think is that social media does gin people up bots do it
22:01There's all these I have a friend of mine is a New York Times reporter
22:04It always responds to angry things and I keep writing around like it's a bot. Stop it. Stop arguing with a fucking bot
22:11He's designed to make you upset
22:12and so I think that's difficult and I do hope you see it in elections across the country where like in Kansas they voted for
22:19The in the different states where they vote for reasonable things a lot of the elections since 2022 have been
22:26Rather reasonable like constitutional amendments for you know, and then you look at the polls most people want, you know
22:33decent abortion laws or gun control laws and just the politicians
22:37Because they've got people like Elon Musk screaming in their ears and handing over 45 million dollars
22:42I mean, I've always thought politicians were cheap whores
22:45I just didn't realize how cheap and they really are and I will say it's a that's a great point to end on which is
22:51Just that the internet what we read on the internet social media. It's not real
22:54Well, it is real. No, that's not true. That's not true. It is real because it does inform these people
22:59They're trying to get some level of influence
23:02Like a Bill Ackman who suddenly is an expert on every another person. I'm gonna do a 96
23:09Section tweet on hedge fund investing because I know fucking nothing and that's how I feel about him
23:15Well, right, you know and buy into his stupid new thing. He's doing because you know, there's one born every minute
23:20It's me, you know, he just can't he's not satisfied to be this rich and oh another person wants to kill me, right?
23:27That's great. Anyway, well, we will have to leave it there. We'll see great Kara Swisher, please. Thank you