On "Forbes Newsroom," Kelly Dittmar, director of research for Rutgers' Center for American Women and Politics, sits down with ForbesWomen editor Maggie McGrath to talk about what voters need to know about Vice President Kamala Harris and her run for the White House.
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00:00On Sunday, President Joe Biden announced that he would be stepping out of the presidential race,
00:09and he endorsed his vice president, Kamala Harris, for the candidacy for the Democratic Party.
00:15Here to explain the historic nature of this moment is Kelly Dittmar. She is the director
00:20of research at Rutgers University's Center for American Women in Politics. Kelly, thank you so
00:26much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. So I want to start just by asking, what is your
00:33reaction to the last 24 hours? It's been quite a news stretch. Yeah, I mean, I think we've been
00:40all in the whirlwind of process for a lot of this, like what's going to happen? What are the moves
00:45that people are going to make? Who, how ultimately is somebody going to become the nominee? And those
00:50are all really important things. But I have been trying to take a step back and say, like,
00:54this is really going to be and likely will be historic, even just the nomination, right? And we
01:00know that Kamala Harris doesn't have the nomination yet. But were she to earn the Democratic nomination,
01:06she'll be just the second woman to ever be a major party nominee for president. She'll be the first
01:11Black woman, the first South Asian woman, first multiracial woman to be a major party presidential
01:17nominee. So I think we do need to take a breath and note that as a historical milestone.
01:22And then obviously, if she goes on to be successful, we could be electing the first
01:27woman president of the United States. So kind of the big picture reflection is, wow, we've really
01:33shifted in the last 24 hours on the degree to which we could make history in this election
01:40pretty significantly. But at the same point, obviously, there's a lot of steps to get there.
01:45And so then, you know, certainly have been digging down in the weeds of what would this look like to
01:51both get to the nomination and ultimately to see if she could be successful in November.
01:58Now, you reference the historic nature of what could be her nomination. Of course,
02:03she is not officially the nominee for the party yet. That is still to be determined,
02:08though, as we'll talk about, a lot of people have thrown their endorsement behind her.
02:12But since we're taking a step back, what do you think regular voters should know about Kamala
02:18Harris that they might not be aware of if they haven't really been paying attention to her up
02:23until now? I mean, I think she has a history of trailblazing. So we go from her, you know,
02:31being elected statewide in California as an attorney general. She went on to be elected
02:38to the U.S. Senate, the first black woman to be elected from the U.S. Senate to the U.S.
02:41Senate, excuse me, from California and only the second black woman to serve in the U.S. Senate.
02:48I mean, this is a place where we really have had dismal representation, both in statewide
02:54executive offices for black women as well as in the U.S. Senate. And so in both of those places,
02:59she's navigated being either a first and an only or first or an only. And so she knows what this
03:07path looks like. And of course, she obviously then went on to become the first woman vice president.
03:14And so this is something she's accustomed to. So in this case, being the second woman to be a
03:20nominee, the first black woman to potentially be a major party presidential nominee, this will not
03:25be new to her. And then I would just add in terms of her trajectory, you know, obviously she was
03:30very successful in the Senate. I think got a lot more national attention because of the way she
03:34brought her prosecutorial skills to many of those Senate committee hearings. We know prominently,
03:42you know, in the confirmation hearings for Justice Kavanaugh, her really putting him on the spot in
03:47a way that he was obviously uncomfortable, but really got to some answers around reprojective
03:51rights. But there are many examples like that. And I think we'll see them rotated again
03:56as she campaigns. And then as vice president, just to acknowledge, obviously she ran for president.
04:04Herself was unsuccessful, had to drop out of that campaign relatively early. She didn't compete in
04:09primaries. Talked about the financial challenge, which I think is tied to electability bias,
04:16which we could talk more about, you know, folks thinking it wasn't possible that she could beat
04:21Donald Trump. I think that has shifted immensely over four years. And I want to credit the fact
04:28that she's been second in command for that time period. And I think that helps her to make the
04:32case that she is absolutely electable in 2024. Let's talk about her record as vice president.
04:39She's been prominent on the issue of reproductive health. I think she's kind of been the singular
04:46figure from the administration, kind of going out around the country, talking about the importance
04:50of reproductive health laws. But what's your take in terms of her policy achievements and what she
04:56has achieved as second in command? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. She's been held to a very
05:03different standard than previous vice presidents. I think going in because she was this trailblazing
05:08figure, folks really wanted to see more of her and hear more about the specific policy achievements
05:13she made. But as most vice presidents do, she has been, you know, a soldier for the
05:20administration, right? Like in a good way, you know, she's fighting for key administration policy
05:26proposals. She's been on the forefront on some of the toughest ones, voting rights, immigration,
05:33abortion rights, right? And so the administration has put a lot of trust in her to be both publicly
05:40speaking on these issues, as well as internally obviously influencing messaging and direction of
05:47the administration on them. So I think we can speak to the fact that she's been influential.
05:54She's also been a good voice on a lot of these major issues that people care about.
06:00And so she'll be able to shift that into her presidential campaign saying like, look, I've been
06:04in the room, and I've been out in the country to both learn about and speak on these issues
06:11and advocate for them. In terms of the different standards, the only other thing I want to raise
06:17there is, so folks talk about, oh, well, she's low favorability. First of all, her favorability is not
06:23that different than other vice presidents. It's also not very different than Joe Biden, right?
06:29Folks, the favorability people give often is to the administration, and that's no surprise.
06:35Also important is that for the last four years, the Trump campaign and then the Republican Party
06:45have targeted Kamala Harris as the face of the administration. And they have done so purposefully,
06:53because her race and her gender make her more prone to attacks that she is radical or extreme
06:59or dangerous. Those are all racialized tropes. And so they put her as the face and said she's
07:04really in charge. The interesting thing about her becoming potentially the nominee is that
07:09then it actually doesn't change the strategy much, and she's already been encountering these attacks.
07:15And so her campaign should be ready for them, and I think already has been obviously
07:20pushing back by pointing to all the things she's done. Now, when you talk about the issues that she
07:27has campaigned on as second in command, what do you think her policy platform should be as she
07:33campaigns to be first in command? You know, I reference reproductive rights and women's issues.
07:40She talks about being a stepmom. She has talked about the caregiving crisis in America.
07:44Does that help her? Or if as speculation suggests, and she recruits a white man as her second in
07:53command, should he talk about the women's issues? And should she focus on the economy and immigration
07:59and global relationships? Yeah, I mean, look, on the one hand, absolutely, just because she's a
08:05woman, just because she's a black person and South Asian person doesn't mean she has to speak only to
08:10those communities' primary issues or issues of primary concern to those communities. However,
08:17the difference, I would say, is not about kind of should she change the policy platform. She probably
08:22won't. I mean, you would guess with a very short on-ramp and her being a part of this administration,
08:29she's not going to run away from the policy issues that were already central to the Biden-Harris
08:34campaign, which, by the way, abortion was at the top of the list, right? They knew and have
08:39banked on this being a mobilizing issue. And you heard not only her, but Joe Biden speak about that
08:44issue. Whoever she chooses as the running mate is also going to talk about that issue, whether they're
08:49male or female. But I also think that there is a value of having women who have direct lived
08:58experiences navigating reproductive health, right, navigating issues of caregiving, perhaps to a
09:04different degree or in a different way, or at least to a different set of expectations than their male
09:09counterparts. For her, living at the intersection of race and gender, right, understanding what it's
09:15like to navigate power systems as a black woman, that's the part of her messaging and platform that
09:22I don't think changes the issues, but it changes how they are talked about and the extent to which
09:28they might resonate differently when she talks about them with different communities of voters.
09:33So I think it's more to me that the issues that she talks about don't necessarily change
09:39drastically. Obviously, she's going to have her own preferences now as the top of the ticket,
09:44but it's the how she talks about them and the ways in which they can then resonate.
09:49Now, we talked about the historic nature of her whole career. Basically, she has been the first
09:54and the only, as you have said, in a number of offices. And I want to ask you, Kelly, because
09:59you look at women in politics, does it help when candidates focus on any historic nature of their
10:06candidacy? Or would it be better for her to not focus on how exceptional that is and instead focus
10:13on her prosecutorial career or her South Asian identity or some other aspect of who she is as
10:20a person and politician? Yeah, I think we know that simply saying, elect me because I can make
10:28history, which, by the way, women rarely do. But they're kind of attacked for that. Like, oh,
10:34you're just asking people to vote for me because or vote for you because you're a woman or because
10:38you're going to make history. We know that that actually largely isn't an effective message with
10:43most voters, because voters are smart and they want to elect somebody on issues. They want to
10:48elect somebody that shares their maybe lived experiences or their priorities. And so that's
10:53where the line, I think, is a little blurred, right? So she can absolutely leverage her lived
11:00experience and distinct perspective, both race, gender, as well as her political background
11:06experience, her parents, you know, their stories. She can leverage all of that to say, I understand
11:14certain issues or I will fight for these issues, maybe in a different way than a white male
11:19candidate would have. I think you'll see that. And we have already seen that from her. You know,
11:24we saw it when she ran for president the first time. We saw it on the trail as vice president,
11:28as well as in her time of office, being willing to say, if you remember in the debate, you know,
11:33I was that black girl being bused. Right. So there is a direct authenticity to her voice that she
11:39will bring and can leverage to her advantage. But that is different than saying because I'm going
11:44to make history, you know, vote for me. The folks who will do that, there will be people who
11:50leverage that argument. And those are going to be advocates and organizations and even maybe some in
11:55her campaign that make the T-shirts or the memes or whatever. And that will mobilize a small group
12:03and it will energize some folks to maybe get involved and share that enthusiasm and hope for
12:08the campaign. Because I don't want to discount the importance symbolically of it. But I think
12:13she will focus more on what it actually means in terms of the merits of who she is and how that
12:19will affect the agenda she brings forth, the voices that get raised in her administration
12:26and and ultimately the impact she can have. Now, you mentioned the electability concerns
12:32that struck her four years ago, and obviously a lot has changed in four years. We have emerged
12:37from a global pandemic. She has been second in command. But I've already heard some concerns from
12:44certain corners of the Internet and of the of society saying, you know, a woman ran against
12:50Trump in 2016. And look at how that turned out. How are you looking at I know it's only been 24
12:56hours, but how are you looking at how people are talking about Vice President Harris now that she
13:01is the presumptive nominee? Yeah, I mean, inevitably, as we've already seen, questions raised
13:09immediately are can she win? Now, we would ask that of any candidate, right, especially in this
13:14crazy circumstance. You know, can she win with just a few months? Can she win in bringing the
13:20Democratic Party together? Like those are real legitimate questions. But I think what we have to
13:25be really cognitive about is that the idea that she can't win because she's a woman or because
13:33she's a black woman is just perpetuating this bias, right? So if you say that somebody who hasn't done
13:42it before, right, somebody who represents a community that hasn't yet been in the office
13:47can never win the office, right? We never make history. And so when Kamala Harris for now many
13:53years has that line in her stump speech about being unburdened by what has been, I always get
14:00it wrong, but you know, to see what is possible, that is her directly trying to take on the
14:07electability biases. She, you know, would say things on the campaign trail like, I'm going to address
14:12the elephant in the room. And effectively, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, she would say, you don't
14:17think I'm electable, but here's why I am. And so what I think we'll see in the coming days, and
14:24we've already seen from her surrogates and folks endorsing her, are reinforcements. She is qualified.
14:31She has the support. There is no reason that she can't win this race. And that is something that
14:37is more important. That effort and that reassurance has historically been and will be in this race
14:43more important for a woman, and in this case, a woman of color, because there are these perceptions
14:50among the electorate that, oh, I just, I'm not sure the country is ready. And when people buy
14:58into that electability bias, they reinforce it through a number of ways. One, they start to say,
15:03like, I guess I'll put my money behind somebody else. Or they say, you know what, she has no chance,
15:09so maybe I won't go out and knock those doors. And so really taking that head on right now,
15:15and using the fundraising numbers, and the mobilizing numbers, and the number of endorsements
15:20that we're seeing from prominent Democrats, using that to say, like, oh, she's clearly electable.
15:26Hopefully, I think for her campaign, they're hoping that that will push back against some of
15:31those biases early, so that she doesn't have to spend so much time, I mean that as her campaign,
15:37you know, fighting those biases going forward. You talk about the endorsement and the fundraising.
15:42The non-profit fundraising site, Act Blue, said last night that as of 9 p.m., nearly 50 million
15:49dollars had been raised by grassroots supporters that day. It was the largest fundraising day
15:55of the 2024 election cycle so far. Kelly, can you put into context, I mean, this is an historic
16:02moment, and so some of these numbers are naturally going to sound very big, but what do you think of
16:07it all? Can you contextualize this for us? Yeah, no, and I wouldn't downplay it. I mean, I think
16:13this is real. It looks like she's on track to maybe be the highest, like, 24 hours on Act Blue
16:19in history. So not only just in this campaign as, you know, as we're not even through 24 hours, I
16:24think, at this point. So, you know, I think that is hugely notable. And what fundraising is, right,
16:32in the sense of, yes, her campaign needs the resources because we all live in a system
16:39where money is very influential in political contests. But money is also not just for
16:46buying campaign ads and funding your campaign staff. Fundraising metrics also are indicators
16:53of support. And so especially in this 24 hours, her being able to generate not only high dollars,
17:00but also high numbers of donors. These are a lot of small donors. When you invest in a campaign
17:06financially, you are much more likely to show up on election day. Even if you gave 25 bucks,
17:12you know, that you have invested enough, you took the time, you're enthusiastic enough that you also
17:18probably will make the effort to mail in that ballot or show up on election day. You might even
17:24be more willing to volunteer in other ways on the campaign. So part of what this fundraising,
17:29I think, why it's even more important than the actual dollar amount is it's showing that that
17:36support for Kamala is not at all wavering. I think there were some, certainly within the Democratic
17:41Party, who felt like, oh, there's no way she wins over either the Biden stalwarts or, you know,
17:48the more progressive wing of the party. Well, she's winning over a lot of people in a short
17:52amount of time. And so I think it is a rebuttal from the campaign through those metrics, at least
17:58to start with. When you talk about the number of people that the fundraising indicates, I want to
18:04ask you, I know it's so early still, it's we keep saying we're less than 24 hours into this news.
18:10But do you have any predictions for what this means for the down ballot races across the country?
18:15Look, I mean, at the basic level, enthusiasm for the top of the ticket helps down ballot. Again,
18:24because if what was the real concern, and I think it's still a concern, by the way,
18:30problems have not evaporated for Democrats overnight. Democratic concern is really this
18:37cycle about turnout. Will Democrats turn out? And this is across different communities,
18:42progressives, young people, voters of color, right? Will they come out to support the Democrats
18:49because they are so essential to the outcome of the race. And so that enthusiasm and turnout at
18:57the top of the ticket is going to generate turnout and enthusiasm for down ballot races. So if people
19:04weren't going to come out for Biden, those folks in vulnerable down ballot races, as we saw,
19:09were very concerned because folks just know less about those races. They may be less enthusiastic
19:16just simply because they don't know enough. They don't realize it's a vulnerable race that gets
19:21less media attention, especially in this media environment. So absolutely, these first indicators,
19:27if you're somebody in a vulnerable congressional race or even state legislative race, and you're a
19:32Democrat, you're feeling at least better in this last 24 hours. Obviously, there's a lot to come,
19:40and there'll be much greater scrutiny of Kamala if she becomes the nominee, and all of that
19:45could equally hurt. But I think for now, you're feeling better than you were last week.
19:51I think we have 106 days to go, and I think we will feel every one of them. But when you talk
19:56about the populations that have to be engaged, you mentioned young people. And I know Gen Z and
20:01their enthusiasm for these candidates on both parties has been a concern because up until 24
20:07hours ago, you had upper 70s, lower 80s ages for these candidates. Can you talk about what we've
20:15seen out of Gen Z? And I'll just I'll tee this up for you. We had the singer Charli XCX tweeting
20:20Kamala is brat in a reference to brat summer and in Gen Z Twitter seemed to explode as a result.
20:27So what's your take on on Millennials and Gen Z who are now perhaps coalescing around Kamala
20:35Harris? Yeah, this had absolutely generationally been if you looked at any polls, the lack of
20:41enthusiasm, the folks saying like, I just might not turn out at all, right? There was a real
20:46concern amongst younger generations, because they were looking at these two old men, they didn't
20:53feel any connection with them. And then on the issues, right, there were concerns about Joe Biden
20:58and was he progressive enough, obviously, the issue of Israel and Palestine, right, is a big
21:03issue that will continue to be an issue for Kamala Harris that does not go away, especially with
21:08these young generations. But I think anytime you can see a kind of engagement with the more pop
21:15culture aspect of this generation, as you're seeing with the Charli XCX piece, then you have
21:22a whole swath of young voters who now start paying attention. And that's an endorsement in and of
21:28itself from a very different kind of part of the world that could really benefit Kamala Harris in
21:35just generating enthusiasm. Again, I want to give some credit to young generations of voters,
21:40especially Gen Z voters are critical, and they're thoughtful, and they're engaged. They're some of
21:46the most active in politics outside of kind of voting, right? Like, they've been protesting for
21:51a long time. So they're not going to just accept that and vote for Kamala Harris because a famous
21:57singer, you know, tweeted, but they may pay more attention, right? They may start to say like, well,
22:03maybe I should give her a second look. And I think that's where that's an upsell for a younger
22:09candidate, a more diverse candidate. And absolutely, in this case, I think it also is related to being a
22:14woman candidate. Absolutely. Some of the attacks she's already seen, in my opinion, feel very
22:21gendered and racialized. We've seen some critiques about how she laughs. And we've also seen some
22:28critiques that she is just a stepmom and has not given birth herself. What have you made of the
22:35early attacks against Vice President Harris? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I absolutely again, a lot of these
22:42attacks have been filtering, not only through the internet, but through the RNC, and through the
22:49Trump campaign, for, like I said, many years. And so attacks on the laugh, right, this is something
22:57Donald Trump has attacked women's looks and voices. Historically, that's a trope, right? It is saying
23:04like, we don't want to listen to women, they're so jarring. And it's a contrast to what is actually
23:11like the power of women's voices, right? And so if you critique the actual tenor of the voice instead
23:18of the substance, right, you try to diminish the seriousness of that candidate. So I think we're
23:24definitely seeing that in a sort of gendered way that has been used, it was used against Clinton,
23:28it will be used against many other women in powerful positions to say, I just can't listen
23:33to that voice, right? And so the laugh is part of that. We've seen attacks on her qualifications,
23:39that's playing absolutely into perceptions. We know that people assume credentials for men,
23:45they assume white men are particularly qualified for any position of leadership, because they've
23:49seen them in those positions of leadership. They tend to question and seek out credentials for
23:56women, and question whether or not they actually have the skills and expertise necessary for the
24:02job. So if you are somebody running against a woman, you're going to start to try to put holes
24:08in those credentials. You're going to use sexualized tropes like she slept her way to the
24:12top. We're seeing that happen to Kamala Harris. This is not new. But so what that means for the
24:18campaign and her advocates is they're going to have to talk more about her credentials to push back.
24:22She has plenty, so it shouldn't be that hard, but that's absolutely a tactic. And then you mentioned,
24:29you know, the motherhood piece, and I would add to that in terms of race, folks saying she's not
24:34black enough, she's not mom enough, right? And so this piece on identity is really complex
24:42in that we have purity standards sometimes for these identities. And she's going to push against
24:49them. She's multiracial, right? And so to the extent that she has already and will continue
24:57to push back against these purity kind of standards for any identity, I also think there
25:02are big swaths of the population who will actually relate to that, right? There are a lot
25:07of stepmothers or bonus moms who are going like, wait a second, hold on, right? And maybe I can
25:14identify with her in a unique way. Or multiracial populations, which are absolutely growing across
25:19the United States. So I think there's our, you absolutely think she's going to face, but at the
25:24same point, there are ways for her to leverage these identities and these questions as well
25:29into discussion and advantages. Maybe not her directly. I think she'll probably try to stick
25:33to the campaign issues, but certainly those who are around her and who will speak on her behalf
25:39and advocate for her. I just want to end on the issues because we've talked about reproductive
25:44rights. We've talked about the war in Gaza. We've talked about immigration a little bit.
25:49Obviously, inflation is a concern for so many consumers and Americans and really people around
25:54the world. If you were Kamala Harris, what would you make your issue focus? I know you said she
26:00won't deviate from the campaign too much. She's been on the ticket. We're so close to the general.
26:05So you implied she won't reinvent the wheel, but will she become the inflation candidate? Will she
26:12become the abortion candidate? If you had to make a guess, what do you think she'll do?
26:18Look, I think she'll look, if you look at the polls and you look at what people care about,
26:22it's always economy first. But I think the message is going to be less about the global
26:28economy or even inflation, more to can you afford to pay your bills? Can you afford to feed your
26:34family? Do you have a job? Are student loans killing you? All of those, what we would sometimes
26:40talk about as kitchen table economic issues, well-being issues, I think she'll lean in on
26:46as Democrats will across the country to say, hey, we've made gains and we've made it better.
26:52We're going to continue to do this work. I think that finish the job argument that Biden had been
26:57putting out will be part of what she's saying when it comes to the economy. We've recovered,
27:02but we have more work to do. That'll be top of mind. Absolutely, I think she'll also talk about
27:08the fragility of our democracy. When she's prosecuting the case, because she will use
27:14this language against Donald Trump, she's going to talk about his actual criminal violations,
27:21his overt attempts to undermine democracy when it comes to voting, when it comes to January 6th,
27:28the way he's talked about these issues. I think preserving democracy when you look at any polls
27:33is a big concern, especially to Democratic voters, and you're going to see her speak to that.
27:38Then I think the issue of abortion, because it's mobilizing, not because it's the top issue,
27:43but it is a mobilizing issue. It is exemplary of attacks on rights that she will probably also
27:51continue to put in the forefront of attacks on the other side, on the other candidate and his party.
27:58Kelly Dittmar, thank you so much for coming on and explaining all of this. We so appreciate
28:02your time and we hope to have you back as the campaign continues to unfold.