Chuck Grassley & Ron Johnson Hold Roundtable To Examine DHS’ ‘Failure’ To Collect DNA At Border
On Tuesday, Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) and Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) held a roundtable discussion entitled "Reckless Disregard: How DHS' Failure to Collect DNA at the Border Endangers Americans.”
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00Johnson is going to be here at about 10 after the hour, but I want to thank Senator Johnson for co-leading this roundtable, and he was also involved in the one that we had a couple weeks ago.
00:00:13I hope the public understands that Republicans are in the minority, so we can't hold formal committee hearings because only chairmen of committees, which are Democrats, call those hearings.
00:00:30So these oversight roundtables are an important part of the investigation that we do through our respective offices.
00:00:40And Senator Johnson and I have a great deal of working cooperation for a lot of our investigations.
00:00:50And also for you people that have taken time out of your busy schedule to be here as panelists, I want to thank you for doing that.
00:01:02Three of our witnesses today are what we classify in an official way as whistleblowers.
00:01:11They happen to be Mark Jones, Mike Taylor, and Fred Wynn.
00:01:16They're patriots, and as I often have said about whistleblowers, too often by our bureaucracy, whether it's these three people or other people, because I've been dealing with this for decades,
00:01:32bureaucracy tends to treat whistleblowers like skunks at a picnic.
00:01:39Today, we're going to discuss issues of very significant importance.
00:01:46Public safety is a connection.
00:01:49First, the government, thank you, Senator Johnson.
00:01:53I just told him you weren't going to get here until 410.
00:01:55You're pretty fast.
00:01:57Okay.
00:01:58Yeah.
00:01:59First, the government's failure to follow the law.
00:02:04And second, retaliation against whistleblowers who alerted the government to those failures.
00:02:12DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005 requires a federal law enforcement people and their agencies to do several things.
00:02:25Law enforcement agencies are required to collect DNA from individuals who are arrested, facing criminal charges, or are convicted, and from certain detained non-citizens at our border.
00:02:44These DNA samples are sent to the FBI database to assist and develop criminal investigations and leads for law enforcement.
00:02:57For many years, the Department of Homeland Security and Customs and Border Protection have failed to follow the law.
00:03:07According to recent protected disclosures by these brave whistleblowers with us today, in fiscal year 2023, DHS and Border Patrol only collected DNA from 30 to 40 percent of the three and two-tenths million individuals at the southern border.
00:03:30Even more concerning, according to protected disclosures, there are locations at our southern border in which the required DNA collection isn't even happening.
00:03:45Now my oversight of these issues goes back at least six years.
00:03:50In November 2018, I wrote a letter to DHS regarding that department's failure to collect DNA as required by law.
00:04:03In 2020, the Trump administration made regulatory changes and required DNA collection take place as the law demands.
00:04:15However, according to protected disclosures, federal bureaucrats put up roadblocks at each turn.
00:04:26Then the Biden-Harris administration assumed power.
00:04:31They simply stopped pushing the full compliance and failed to follow the law.
00:04:38Their non-compliance continues today.
00:04:42In 2023, after receiving new whistleblower disclosures, I wrote a letter to the same Department of Homeland Security.
00:04:55My letter included very precise internal government data that clearly showed the Biden-Harris administration's failure to follow the law.
00:05:09The records also included FBI records that showed examples of illegal migrants who were connected to criminal cold cases after obtaining their DNA.
00:05:24The crimes included homicide, burglary, assault on federal officials, and sexual assault of minors.
00:05:34Those records illustrate the importance, very importance, of obtaining DNA at the border.
00:05:42The Biden-Harris administration, Department of Homeland Security, has failed to respond to my letter.
00:05:53On February 26 this year, I wrote to DHS highlighting the department's failure to respond to my November 2023 letter and requested an immediate response.
00:06:09My letter again made public brand new whistleblower disclosures regarding Border Patrol's alarmingly low percentage of DNA samples at our border.
00:06:22Again, I asked questions related to the department's DNA collection practices.
00:06:29Now, to date, which should be no surprise, the Biden-Harris administration's Department of Homeland Security has again failed to respond.
00:06:42The failure to collect DNA has real-life implications.
00:06:48We need to know who's coming to the United States.
00:06:51We need to know whether they're connected to any crimes.
00:06:55In other words, are they dangerous to our community?
00:07:01This is not a free-for-all.
00:07:04The Office of Special Counsel even performed a review of these whistleblowers' protected disclosures.
00:07:15That review said in part, quote,
00:07:21CBP has failed to fulfill its responsibilities under the law and in so doing has compromised public safety.
00:07:32The failure to collect DNA clearly inhibits law enforcement's ability to solve cold cases and to bring violent criminals to justice.
00:07:45End of that quote.
00:07:47But I want to further quote the Office of Special Counsel.
00:07:51This office said, quote,
00:07:54the agency's non-compliance with the law
00:07:58has allowed subjects subsequently accused of violent crimes,
00:08:04including homicide and sexual assault,
00:08:07to elude detection even when detained multiple times by Customs and Border Protection
00:08:16or Immigration and Custom Enforcement.
00:08:20This is an unacceptable dereliction of the agency's law enforcement mandate.
00:08:26End of quote.
00:08:29Well,
00:08:31take a look and study that.
00:08:33An independent third party substantiates
00:08:37these allegations.
00:08:40After making their protected disclosures, all three whistleblowers
00:08:45were retaliated against.
00:08:48Retaliation that's been extensive and long enduring.
00:08:54From February 2018 through the present,
00:08:59DHS officials have subjected
00:09:02these whistleblowers to significant changes in duties,
00:09:07responsibilities,
00:09:08and working conditions.
00:09:10They suffered an overall reduction in pay,
00:09:14and they have been
00:09:16removed from their
00:09:17supervisory positions.
00:09:20These illegal actions
00:09:23by the government have negatively impacted promotional opportunities.
00:09:28For example, the Office of Special Counsel identified an intentional non-promotion
00:09:34for Mr. Jones.
00:09:38Additionally, in 2022, the Biden and
00:09:42Harris Administration
00:09:44Border Patrol removed credentials,
00:09:47law enforcement authorities,
00:09:49and firearms from Mr. Taylor and Mr. Jones.
00:09:53This resulted in Mr. Taylor losing his law enforcement retirement benefits
00:09:59after 30 years
00:10:01of federal service.
00:10:03The removal of one's firearm
00:10:07and credentials is the ultimate act of personal and career retaliation.
00:10:14The way DHS
00:10:16has treated these three courageous men
00:10:19is an absolute scandal.
00:10:21The Office of Special Counsel said its investigation supports a conclusion
00:10:27that the government's actions against these three whistleblowers constituted
00:10:33prohibited
00:10:34personnel practices.
00:10:37More recently, Mr. Jones was subject
00:10:40to continued retaliation by the Biden Administration.
00:10:45Specifically, Mr. Jones and others within his office
00:10:49were asked to move to a different workplace.
00:10:52When Mr. Jones arrived at his new workstation,
00:10:56he was the only employee without connectivity,
00:11:00power, or phone access at his workstation, which lasted for over three weeks.
00:11:07Secretary Mayorkas has failed to cure
00:11:11the illegal actions against these three
00:11:15whistleblowers.
00:11:18And
00:11:21and for me to put this as plainly as I can,
00:11:25the government has violated federal law,
00:11:29retaliated against three brave whistleblowers,
00:11:32and continued
00:11:34to refuse to take corrective action.
00:11:38It's a complete disgrace.
00:11:41The supervisors need to be held accountable.
00:11:44This senator won't stop fighting for these whistleblowers.
00:11:49My investigative efforts in this matter will continue.
00:11:53Now I turn to my
00:11:56friend,
00:11:57Senator Johnson.
00:11:59Thank you, Senator Grassley. And again, I want to thank you and your staff's dedication over many, many years
00:12:05of
00:12:06championing
00:12:07whistleblower protections and actually protecting whistleblowers. And the result of that,
00:12:12just so the public understands, is whistleblowers feel very
00:12:15comfortable coming to Senator Grassley's office, and the public is made aware of things that the public deserves to know
00:12:21because of his efforts. Yeah, I certainly want to thank the whistleblowers
00:12:25testifying here today.
00:12:29A couple weeks ago, we held a roundtable with additional whistleblowers
00:12:35that described
00:12:37how
00:12:39the federal government, HHS, knowingly
00:12:44is rushing,
00:12:47passing, and transferring unaccompanied children to supposedly sponsors
00:12:53who are undocumented,
00:12:55who the government knows full well,
00:12:58are probably, in many cases, part of a transnational criminal organization that traffics humans,
00:13:04sex trafficking.
00:13:06And they're doing that
00:13:08because
00:13:09one of the whistleblowers was reported saying is
00:13:11the federal government doesn't get sued by traffickers. They just get sued
00:13:15if they hold on to these children too long because the floor is settlement.
00:13:20So today's roundtable is talking about
00:13:25how the federal government is not following the law in terms of collecting DNA samples on people coming to this country illegally. Now,
00:13:32there's a couple reasons that we would want to do that.
00:13:36And the obvious ones are we want to try and catch criminals if we know about them to prevent crime.
00:13:43It certainly helps us solve crimes because we have these
00:13:46fabulous databases. Now, once you get the DNA sample, you can match that with other DNA
00:13:51taking part of the crime, again, to
00:13:53catch that criminal, to solve the crime so it doesn't create more crimes.
00:13:58My involvement as chairman of Homeland Security in terms of DNA testing involved more
00:14:05of what has sparked all these
00:14:08crises now at our border. There's this flood of people and
00:14:12I just want to quick tell the story if you can indulge me a little bit because most people don't understand
00:14:17why we have these crises. It really all began, the catalyst was the Deferred Action on Childhood Arrivals.
00:14:23That
00:14:25was the improper use of prosecutorial discretion deciding not to
00:14:29prosecute
00:14:31hundreds of thousands of people came to this country illegally.
00:14:35Children.
00:14:36The result of that is the
00:14:38human traffickers
00:14:40were able to communicate in Central America and elsewhere around the world that American immigration law has changed and
00:14:46if you get into America now, you're going to be handed a white slip. They called it permiso.
00:14:50That's not what it was. It was a notice to appear.
00:14:54The reality of the situation is people started flooding this country and I think it's 2014, President Obama declared a humanitarian crisis
00:15:03when we were encountering 2,000 people a day.
00:15:06Jay Johnson said it was a really bad day for CBP. It was a thousand day. Well under the Biden administration,
00:15:10we've had December 10,000 a day average.
00:15:14One day 14,000.
00:15:17But to get back to my story,
00:15:20President Obama with his humanitarian crisis started detaining families with their children.
00:15:27He was sued
00:15:29and there was a
00:15:31court decision that reinterpreted the Flores decision, the Flores settlement that required DHS to
00:15:40turn over, find a sponsor, no longer detain unaccompanied children after 20 days.
00:15:46And the reinterpretation that said that included children accompanied by their parents.
00:15:52And so the Obama administration was put in a very untenable position of saying, well,
00:15:57if we want to detain the parents who've come to this country illegally,
00:16:00we still have to
00:16:02turn the children over to foster kids, start separating families, which the Obama
00:16:07administration understandably and justifiably didn't want to do.
00:16:12So what that resulted in
00:16:14is fake families.
00:16:17We had testimony in this, in the committee room, the Homeland Security Committee room in June of 2019 that they were selling children
00:16:25when a 51-year-old illegal immigrant
00:16:27confessed that he actually bought a infant boy for $84
00:16:35to have a fake family
00:16:37so he could exploit our asylum laws under that Flores reinterpretation.
00:16:43So that
00:16:44now you come in with a child,
00:16:46the family, the family units were allowed in this country.
00:16:49And that is what has sparked these massive ways of illegal immigration.
00:16:54And so the fact that
00:16:57DHS just refuses, and here's the real question I'm going to have, is why
00:17:03do career DHS personnel refuse to do
00:17:09what Eric Holder said was going to do after a year of just getting their act together
00:17:14to do DNA testing to make sure
00:17:17that these actually are family units
00:17:19and not trafficked children.
00:17:21Again, it just boggles my mind. So again,
00:17:24I'll end now. I've rambled on for really far too long. But again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your dogged
00:17:32determination to first of all protect whistleblowers, but also do the oversight
00:17:37in these areas that just lead to
00:17:40untold human depredation,
00:17:42untold human suffering that our federal government is turning a blind's eye towards.
00:17:46So again, I just commend you Senator Grassley and the whistleblowers for coming forward.
00:17:51The American public needs to understand this so that we can stop it.
00:17:57Because there's just all kinds of horrible things, inhumane things happen to human beings because
00:18:02our federal government refuses to acknowledge the truth. So thanks Senator Grassley. Thank you Senator Johnson.
00:18:08We cooperate on so many things and this is just a small part of our cooperation.
00:18:14Now I'm going to introduce our witnesses. Fred Winn
00:18:18is a federal employee
00:18:20for 25 years.
00:18:22He currently works for U.S. Customs and Border Protection,
00:18:26has been a part of the Department of Homeland Security for 13 years.
00:18:30He previously served as an operations manager in the Weapons of Mass Destruction Division.
00:18:37Prior to joining
00:18:39CBP,
00:18:41Mr. Winn spent 12 years
00:18:44at the Department of Education.
00:18:47Mike Taylor
00:18:49is a federal employee with 31 years of federal service.
00:18:53He currently works at U.S. Customs and Border Protection
00:18:58and has worked the Department of Homeland Security 21 years
00:19:02since the inception
00:19:04of the department going back to March 2003.
00:19:08He previously served as Deputy Director of Weapons of Mass Destruction Division
00:19:14in Border Patrol.
00:19:16Prior to his start at DHS,
00:19:19Mr. Taylor worked at the U.S. Customs Service,
00:19:23which became Customs and Border Patrol.
00:19:27Mark Jones is a federal employee with 20 years of federal service.
00:19:32He currently works at the U.S. Customs and Border Protection,
00:19:36has been part of the Department of Homeland Security for 12 years.
00:19:41He previously served as the acting director and branch chief
00:19:46of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Division
00:19:49at Customs Border Protection. He also served the Office of Anti-Terrorism
00:19:56at CBP.
00:19:58Prior to joining CBP, Mr. Jones served eight years with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
00:20:06Kumar Kimball
00:20:09is a former federal employee with the Department of Homeland Security.
00:20:14He previously served as Deputy Assistant Secretary
00:20:18and Deputy Director of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
00:20:22Mr. Kibbe is a West Point graduate
00:20:25and served with the 82nd Airborne Division. I thank all of you for beginning and
00:20:32we'll go from
00:20:34my left to my right. So would you start out please, sir?
00:20:40Senator Grassley and Senator Johnson,
00:20:42thank you for the opportunity to sit before you and your colleagues to answer questions
00:20:46regarding my experience as a whistleblower,
00:20:49the critical importance of the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005,
00:20:52and the requirement for DHS to comply fully with this law.
00:20:57Senator Grassley,
00:20:59I want to thank you and your oversight unit for nearly six years of work to uncover and make public the
00:21:04retaliation against myself and my colleagues,
00:21:07as well as your efforts to hold DHS and CBP accountable for their duty to follow the law and keep Americans safe.
00:21:14My name is Fred Nguyen, and I'm joined by my colleagues Mark Jones and Mike Taylor.
00:21:19Mark, Mike, and I were all part of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Division that was housed within CBP's Office of Intelligence.
00:21:26Based on our experience,
00:21:28expertise, and success in assisting the Department of Defense with running latent fingerprints on improvised explosive devices against
00:21:36CBP's fingerprint database,
00:21:38we were asked to develop and implement a DNA collection pilot program.
00:21:43During this process, we identified the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005,
00:21:48which requires DNA to be taken from all subjects arrested by federal agencies.
00:21:53Our pilot program was to bring CBP into compliance with the law and submit DNA samples to the FBI's Combined Indexed DNA System Database.
00:22:03Significantly,
00:22:04collection of DNA at and between U.S. ports of entry allows our law enforcement community to develop
00:22:11investigative leads and solve cold cases throughout the United States.
00:22:15The low percentage of DNA collection that we see today allows criminals to commit further crimes, including forcible sex offenses,
00:22:23murders,
00:22:24trafficking, drug smuggling, and other acts perpetrated on U.S. citizens and residents.
00:22:30Given the enormous potential of DNA collection to solve cold cases and assist criminal investigations nationwide,
00:22:37we took our job seriously to bring CBP into full compliance with the law.
00:22:41We found that the career bureaucrats tasked with implementing this law were failing to make even minimal DNA collections.
00:22:49In May of 2017,
00:22:51DHS Secretary John Kelly issued a memorandum
00:22:55directing DHS components to enhance biometric collection practices in support of DHS's screening and vetting activities.
00:23:04CBP made no effort to begin DNA collection in response to this memorandum.
00:23:08In February of 2018,
00:23:10after DHS leadership became aware of the non-compliance with the law, a series of retaliatory actions,
00:23:17which Mr. Jones will outline, began.
00:23:21Full compliance with the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005 is a crucial component of our nation's security efforts.
00:23:28The continued failure to implement the law must cease.
00:23:38Senator Grassley and Senator Johnson,
00:23:41thank you for the opportunity to come before this roundtable and answer questions regarding the DNA Fingerprint Act
00:23:47and the retaliation that has been taken against me and my colleagues.
00:23:51Senator Grassley, I specifically would like to thank you for the work that you and your oversight unit have done on this issue.
00:23:59My name is Michael Taylor. I am an employee at CBP and was part of the WMD division with Mark
00:24:06and Fred, as Mr. Nguyen just noted.
00:24:11I would like to take a few minutes to discuss what I have witnessed from 2017
00:24:16until the present as it relates to CBP's non-conformity with the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005.
00:24:23As Mr. Nguyen has just mentioned,
00:24:26we were directed to develop a DNA collection program that would ensure CBP's 100 percent compliance
00:24:32with the DNA Fingerprint Act.
00:24:36In 2018, as we were developing and close to implementing the DNA collection pilot program,
00:24:42we began to see that federal bureaucrats in charge of implementing the DNA Fingerprint Act
00:24:47were actively obstructing the law.
00:24:50Although I cannot speak to their motives, it became clear that certain senior officials
00:24:56were hell-bent on slow-rolling any process or pilot program
00:25:01that enabled DNA collection.
00:25:04While CBP ostensibly supported our development of a collection program,
00:25:09we were excoriated when the White House and the Department of Justice were made aware
00:25:15of CBP's and DHS's ongoing failure to comply with the law.
00:25:21CBP officials became further enraged with us when the White House and the DOJ were informed of CBP's
00:25:28and DHS's intentions to never comply with the DNA Fingerprint Act.
00:25:34CBP has maintained this defiant posture to this day.
00:25:40CBP and DHS
00:25:42sophistically asserted that a 2010 exemption absolved them of any obligation to collect DNA for nearly a decade.
00:25:50In a letter to President Trump, the Office of Special Counsel refuted CBP's fabricated assertion
00:25:57and chastised the agency for its misconduct and inexcusable failure to implement the DNA Fingerprint Act.
00:26:05The Trump administration published a final rule in March 2020
00:26:09in the Federal Register that restored the Attorney General's plenary legal authority to authorize
00:26:16and direct
00:26:18all federal agencies,
00:26:20including the Department of Homeland Security,
00:26:22to collect DNA samples from non-United States persons who are detained under the authority of the United States.
00:26:31Any contrived notion of the existence of a waiver for DHS was ended on that day.
00:26:39Despite DHS and CBP internal directives and correspondence
00:26:44going back to 2020
00:26:46and ordering compliance with the DNA Fingerprint Act,
00:26:50the FBI reported that CBP had a DNA collection rate of 38.7% in fiscal year 2023.
00:26:59That means out of approximately 3.2 million nationwide encounters,
00:27:05almost 2 million individuals did not have their DNA collected.
00:27:10The DNA samples that DHS and CBP did collect in fiscal year 2023
00:27:14led to
00:27:171,037 matches in the FBI's DNA. I'm sorry, FBI's combined DNA index system.
00:27:24Since these results are believed to be statistically linear,
00:27:28DHS potentially missed well over 1,600 criminals in fiscal year 2023 alone.
00:27:37It has been over four years since any perceived or imagined
00:27:41ambiguity has been removed from the federal government's law enforcement DNA collection requirements.
00:27:48Collecting DNA as required by the law is clearly not a priority for the current administration.
00:27:55Instead of taking the necessary steps to fully comply with the DNA Fingerprint Act,
00:28:00current DHS and CBP management seem more interested in focusing their efforts on continually retaliating
00:28:08against my colleagues and me for disclosing what can now only be described as their chronic malfeasance.
00:28:16Thank you. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have.
00:28:25Senator Grassley and Senator Johnson,
00:28:27thank you for the opportunity to come before this roundtable.
00:28:31Senator Grassley, I would like to echo my colleagues
00:28:34have said about your oversight.
00:28:36Thank you for the work you are doing and to right the wrongs.
00:28:40My name is Mark Jones, former acting director of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Division.
00:28:46I had the honor of leading the WMD division and working on the DNA collection pilot program with Mike and Fred.
00:28:53I plan to speak to you today about the ongoing retaliation against me,
00:28:58Mike and Fred, as a result of our protected disclosures
00:29:02of the failures that Mr. Taylor just laid out.
00:29:06It's important to note that the Office of Special Counsel has corroborated our claims of retaliation
00:29:12and DHS's failure to comply with the law.
00:29:16In February of 2018, our team was in communication with a staff member of the DHS secretary's office
00:29:23regarding the roadblocks that career bureaucrats at CBP were putting in our way,
00:29:28slowing our progress towards the pilot and ultimately compliance with the law.
00:29:33At the time, the Trump administration, White House, and DOJ were pressuring DHS
00:29:38on full compliance with the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005.
00:29:44As a result of our protected disclosures, the retaliation against me and my team by CBP leadership began.
00:29:51These bureaucrats immediately shut down the DNA collection pilot program and disbanded the WMD division.
00:29:58Further, during a conference call in April of 2018,
00:30:02senior officials stated that they did not want to comply with the law,
00:30:07despite being pressured by the secretary of DHS and the Department of Justice.
00:30:13This is what led me and my colleagues to make protected disclosures to the Office of Special Counsel
00:30:19about DHS and CBP's failure to comply with the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005.
00:30:25I continually raised a non-compliance with the law to the attention of my supervisors.
00:30:31They told me to keep my mouth shut and things would go easier for me.
00:30:36Since 2018, we have been left with no meaningful tasks or work,
00:30:40effectively ending our professional careers.
00:30:43Under the current administration, the retaliation due to our protected disclosures to OSC
00:30:49and Congress
00:30:50intensified and continues today.
00:30:53For example, Mr. Wynn was pressured to take a job well below his expertise and has been subject to significant reputational harm.
00:31:01One of the most overt and egregious actions taken against Mr. Taylor and myself occurred just over a year ago.
00:31:07We were stripped of our law enforcement authorities, credentials, and firearms.
00:31:12As a result, Mr. Taylor was also stripped of his law enforcement retirement benefits.
00:31:17This administration, DHS, and CBP leadership is aware of the continued retaliation.
00:31:24I do not believe that they will willingly take corrective actions necessary to right these wrongs.
00:31:30As the Office of Special Counsel wrote in a December 2021 memo, and I quote,
00:31:35the agency's treatment of the complainants is particularly
00:31:39pernicious
00:31:40because it has a potential chilling effect on other agency employees
00:31:44and it sends the clear message that whistleblowing will derail one's career.
00:31:51DHS and CBP's attitude toward us can be summed up in a recent quote from a current official.
00:31:57The agency wants to bankrupt us, make us quit,
00:32:02die,
00:32:03kill ourselves, or preferably all of the above.
00:32:07This is the treatment we receive for coming forward as whistleblowers simply wanting our government to follow this critical law Congress enacted.
00:32:15Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions.
00:32:21Senator Grassley, Senator Johnson, thank you very much for inviting me here today.
00:32:26My name is Kumar Kibble and I retired from ICE after more than 24 years
00:32:31of federal law enforcement service, including as the agency's deputy director.
00:32:36Following my retirement, I worked for a company that pioneered rapid DNA technology and I led efforts in collaboration with DHS
00:32:45to demonstrate how rapid DNA enables more secure borders,
00:32:48including determining kinship to identify fraudulent family units and to also catch human traffickers.
00:32:55To be clear, I stopped working at that company more than four years ago, and I have no financial interest or affiliation with it today.
00:33:04With today's roundtable, I think you've zeroed in on a border security issue that can actually be fixed.
00:33:09It can address one of our most significant challenges,
00:33:12stopping more people from coming into our country who represent known true threats.
00:33:19I'm looking forward to your questions, but I want to briefly put into plain English the issue that we're discussing here.
00:33:25Today, as you know,
00:33:26personnel along the border collect DNA samples from individuals in custody,
00:33:31stick the samples in a pouch, and mail them to the FBI's lab in Quantico.
00:33:36Those samples have piled up into a gigantic backlog and by the time they're processed,
00:33:42the people from whom they're collected are long gone.
00:33:46And if those people pose a threat,
00:33:48the opportunity to further detain or return them is passed.
00:33:52It doesn't have to be like this.
00:33:54I mean, instead, proven technology and processes exist that enable rapid processing of DNA samples within 90 minutes.
00:34:02And these samples can be processed in the field,
00:34:05very close to where they're collected at the border.
00:34:08We can and we should be getting DNA profile results while individuals are still in custody.
00:34:15By implementing rapid DNA testing,
00:34:17we provide our border officials with the necessary information to make informed decisions,
00:34:22ensuring that those who pose a threat are apprehended and those in genuine need of asylum are protected.
00:34:29Senator Johnson, you referenced the case of the 51-year-old male.
00:34:32I was there during the pilot in April 2019, if it's the same case, where we identified that and that was based on rapid DNA.
00:34:40Waiting for months for results to come back that would help us establish whether this is a fraudulent family unit would just not be effective.
00:34:48So the money you're spending today on DNA analysis
00:34:51would still be spent, but it would be spent in a way that achieves border security missions much more effectively and prevents backlogs.
00:34:59I'm a firm believer in this technology. I've witnessed its effectiveness.
00:35:04I know that if we implement it across the border, our personnel will stop far more individuals presenting human trafficking,
00:35:11child exploitation, national security, and public safety threats than we currently are able to stop today.
00:35:18In my expert opinion,
00:35:19this is a non-controversial
00:35:22border security imperative that simply accelerates the current slow and ineffective DNA collection and analysis process
00:35:29that's currently in place.
00:35:34I'll
00:35:35do my questions and Senator Johnson will do his.
00:35:38We expect Rick Scott of Florida to come
00:35:43at a later date to ask questions as well.
00:35:47The three of you made protected disclosures regarding DHS and Border Patrol failures to obtain DNA from illegal
00:35:57immigrants at the southern border as required by the law and based on your opening statements,
00:36:03the Biden-Harris administration has failed to comply with the DNA Fingerprint Act.
00:36:09Mr. Jones, I'd like to start with a threshold question.
00:36:14Threshold question.
00:36:16How do DNA profiles help DHS, CBP,
00:36:21and other law enforcement agencies protect our
00:36:25communities and at the same time secure our border?
00:36:30Senator Johnson, the DNA profiles that are generated by the collection at the border
00:36:36allows law enforcement to then log those DNA profiles in the CODIS database.
00:36:42If there is a latent or a crime scene DNA sample that is in that database,
00:36:48then it gives law enforcement an actual lead or investigative track
00:36:53to be able to reopen or open a cold case.
00:36:57The majority of the cases in that database, 45 to 50 percent, are sexual assault and rape
00:37:04followed closely by homicide.
00:37:06In our experience with since 2020,
00:37:10we have seen
00:37:12very interesting and promising results that come from these DNA profiles being loaded.
00:37:18The oldest case that was reopened, sir, was from 1972,
00:37:23which was actually a sexual assault. So the value to law enforcement is immeasurable.
00:37:30It's in addition to fingerprints and photographs and it gives our state, local, and tribal authorities the ability to follow up on cases
00:37:39it gives victims and their families a level of closure
00:37:44and it can also exonerate those that have been possibly wrongly accused.
00:37:50If the Biden-Harris administration followed the law instead of flouting it,
00:37:56how would that
00:37:58have played a role in preventing the murder of Rachel
00:38:04Moran?
00:38:06For you, Mr. Jones.
00:38:09Sir,
00:38:10as we look at the
00:38:12failures and successes, even at the 37 percent threshold that we're seeing today,
00:38:18in focusing on the case you referenced,
00:38:20we know that the subject was encountered by CBP and DHS at least three times.
00:38:27His DNA was never collected.
00:38:29On his fourth trip across the border, he's said to be a gotaway.
00:38:34He avoided DHS and CBP border patrol
00:38:37and was able to get into the United States.
00:38:40He ended up in California
00:38:42and in March of last year, he was involved, according to law enforcement, in a home invasion
00:38:49and sexual assault of a mother and her nine-year-old child.
00:38:54In that encounter, law enforcement was able to collect DNA samples and sent them to CODIS.
00:39:01Unfortunately, there was no match because we did not collect his DNA as we should have.
00:39:07From
00:39:08March
00:39:09and until August,
00:39:11there was no
00:39:13investigative lead that would have led us to the subject.
00:39:17Do we know if we had that investigative lead and had identified the subject? We could have located him,
00:39:24possibly. We know that there would have been an NCIC record placed into
00:39:30the federal law enforcement system that said if any state, local, or federal agency encountered this subject,
00:39:37he would have popped as a person of interest in the original home invasion and sexual assault of a mother and a child.
00:39:45He could have been apprehended.
00:39:47We could have had a person to look for.
00:39:50Do we know if we could have absolutely prevented Rachel Morin's
00:39:54rape and murder?
00:39:56We don't know that, sir, but we do know that if we were able to identify this subject earlier,
00:40:01he would have been on law enforcement's radar and potentially apprehended.
00:40:07Also for you, the administration's DHS and CBP
00:40:12aren't collecting DNA at some locations at the southern border.
00:40:16Where, why, and what's the impact on our national security?
00:40:23Sir, Senator, a recent or a colleague of ours was visiting
00:40:30sites along the southern border
00:40:32and they went to
00:40:34approximately 12 sites
00:40:36and neither
00:40:38Border Patrol nor Office of Field Operations were collecting DNA at any of those sites while they were present.
00:40:45They asked the officer and agents why they weren't doing it and the response our person told us was they're just not doing it.
00:40:54The impact is, again, we are allowing investigative leads
00:40:59to get past us and we're frankly violating the very law that was passed
00:41:05by Congress in 2006 and implemented by the Department of Justice law enforcement entities in 2009.
00:41:14So the impact is clear.
00:41:17Mr. Taylor, regarding the ongoing Whistleblower Court case with your colleagues, has the
00:41:24administration,
00:41:25DHS, and CBP
00:41:28made false or misleading statements internally or explained or publicly
00:41:34about it? If so, please explain.
00:41:41Yes, Senator Grassley,
00:41:43when the Office of Special Counsel began investigating our allegations of whistleblower reprisal,
00:41:50this started back in 2018, I'm sorry, CBP told the Office of Special Counsel that we were poor performers and were about to be fired.
00:41:58When the OSC pointed out
00:42:00that we'd received significant awards and public recognition for our outstanding work six weeks before the dismantling of our group,
00:42:08CBP then stated that we weren't a good fit in our current organizational location.
00:42:13When the OSC told CBP that we were reprised against and should be restored to our previous position,
00:42:20CBP told the OSC that the funding was no longer available.
00:42:24When the OSC pointed out that CBP's recently submitted budget
00:42:29included expanding the number of personnel in our WMD division by 500% over the next five years,
00:42:38CBP said that that money was re-appropriated.
00:42:42The seemingly innocuous email sent by me to CBP's finance center confirmed that the WMD funding was indeed available
00:42:49and currently being utilized elsewhere by CBP.
00:42:54As it is today.
00:42:57In fact, one of our salaries, as Mr. Jones has articulated, that had articulated earlier,
00:43:03has been paid out of the WMD budget for the last six plus year, six plus years,
00:43:08proving our point that the Office of Special Counsel has been perpetually lied to by CBP.
00:43:16Numerous individuals
00:43:18in multiple offices in CBP have made known false statements to the OSC,
00:43:23the Merit Systems and the Merit Systems Protection Board. They've also made known false statements to Congressional Oversight Groups.
00:43:31CBP's table of offenses
00:43:33clearly articulates that the penalty for knowingly making a false statement in an official inquiry is removal.
00:43:41There are no mitigating factors
00:43:44and yet no one has been disciplined.
00:43:47On September 23rd, Senator, as you are aware, you wrote to Secretary Mayorkas and Acting Commissioner Troy Miller
00:43:55about CBP making false statements to the press.
00:43:58Your staff had confirmed with the Office of Special Counsel twice
00:44:02that the Office of Special Counsel had sought corrective action on our behalf.
00:44:07CBP made public statements to the New York Post stating,
00:44:11the Office of Special Counsel terminated its investigation into these claims without issuing a prohibitive personnel practice report
00:44:19or seeking corrective action.
00:44:21That is clearly a lie.
00:44:23Rather than issue of retraction, CBP stated that,
00:44:27this is a mischaracterization of this issue based on incomplete records
00:44:33and we are unable to comment further based on open litigation regarding these cases.
00:44:38Lie, deflect, and lie some more has been a winning strategy for CBP since 2018.
00:44:45They are lawless and proving to be accountable to no one.
00:44:49As we've mentioned to the various oversight groups we've spoken to, Senator,
00:44:53CBP is the equivalent of a multi-billion dollar corporation.
00:44:58They have their own press corps and they can make statements to the press
00:45:03regardless of how dishonest
00:45:06or untruthful they are.
00:45:08And they're given the benefit of the doubt that the average
00:45:11citizen would not believe that a statement that an agency would openly make a public statement that was so patently untrue.
00:45:18As you are aware and your staff called CBP out
00:45:22on this
00:45:23factual and known misstatement,
00:45:25they continue to do so and operate in all these facets with impunity.
00:45:31Okay, I'll stop and let you
00:45:34go ahead. Are you done, sir?
00:45:38Yes, Senator. Thank you. Go ahead. Thanks, Senator Grassley.
00:45:43Mr. Nguyen, who retaliated against you and are they still serving in government?
00:45:50Thank you, Senator.
00:45:52There were multiple managers and staff within CBP's Office of Intelligence that retaliated against
00:45:57myself and us collectively. The first act of retaliation
00:46:01was to dismantle the WMD division within CBP's Office of Intelligence.
00:46:08This retaliatory act had the effect of leaving us sitting idle with absolutely no work all day.
00:46:14I'll just add that being iced with nothing to do is one of the most effective punishments I can think of
00:46:19if you want to retaliate against an employee.
00:46:22These acts were taken with the full knowledge of the management chain of CBP's Office of Intelligence.
00:46:30Okay.
00:46:32So you have specific names. I can see where you don't want to
00:46:37you know
00:46:38state them publicly, but we can be made aware of those names and then I'm assuming they're still serving in
00:46:44DHS and within the agencies in government.
00:46:47Sir, we can certainly provide you with all the names. At least two of those individuals
00:46:51are no longer employed by the federal government, but we can provide you with that information.
00:46:56Okay.
00:46:57So under the Trump administration, their Office of Special Counsel were looking into this
00:47:01at the start of the Biden administration that their
00:47:04investigation of the retaliation just stopped?
00:47:08You mean after the Office of Special Counsel looked into the issue? The retaliatory acts did continue.
00:47:16They did continue? They did continue, yes. But did you have an advocate inside the Biden administration, Office of Special Counsel?
00:47:24No, Senator, we did not.
00:47:26Okay, so
00:47:28that speaks volumes.
00:47:30Mr. Taylor, in your testimony you said, although I cannot speak to their motives, again what boggles my mind
00:47:35is you have bureaucrats within DHS.
00:47:39Their job is to secure this homeland, secure our border,
00:47:44and yet they won't follow the law.
00:47:46So I'm asking you, I'll ask Mr. Taylor next too, because you said the bureaucratics immediately shut down DNA. Why?
00:47:53Why would they do it?
00:47:56Now again, I do understand early on with Eric Holder,
00:47:59there was a year where they did not have the capability, they wanted to
00:48:03obtain the capability, get the funding to establish it, but that was supposed to be a one-year
00:48:08exemption period, right? That was back in
00:48:112010?
00:48:14Senator, that is correct. It defies,
00:48:17it's not lost on
00:48:19anyone here that this is the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005. It was passed 19 years ago.
00:48:26If my memory serves me correctly, this legislation passed the House 416 to 4
00:48:34and passed the Senate unanimously.
00:48:37Not that I follow all the litigation that's up, I'm sorry the legislation that's up here, but that's pretty unanimous and pretty nonpartisan.
00:48:45It was passed in 2005, not in
00:48:48reaction to what was happening on the border. This is just good law that if you're going to arrest somebody,
00:48:53we have this marvelous technology, DNA, we ought to take DNA samples, correct?
00:48:59And then all of a sudden when we had the explosion on our border, sparked by DACA, now you had another
00:49:05purpose, another use for it, is trying to prevent the depredations of the exploitation of our asylum law, correct?
00:49:12That's certainly reasonable inference, sir. So again, Mr. Taylor, why?
00:49:18Why would bureaucrats in DHS simply refuse to follow the law,
00:49:22and
00:49:23a law that could prevent crimes, help solve crimes, and prevent human depredations of
00:49:30the invasion in this country?
00:49:34Senator, I wish I could answer that. I'm asking Mr. Jones, I'm sorry.
00:49:41Senator Johnson,
00:49:43we have been asked that question by so many individuals.
00:49:48There has never been anyone that has overtly said to us, we don't want to do this because.
00:49:54I will tell you that in April of 2018, after we had been shut down,
00:49:58the three of us were included on a conference call with the then acting commissioner and his staff,
00:50:04senior leaders from Border Patrol, OFO, Field Operations, and our Chief Counsel office.
00:50:10The person who was the special assistant for then the acting commissioner came into the room
00:50:15on the conference call and said,
00:50:18the commissioner does not want to do this right now. He's being pressured by the secretary and by the attorney general.
00:50:26If we have to have a plan and DOJ pulls the nuclear card, which was then to
00:50:31remove any idea of the ability to not participate,
00:50:37there has to be a plan in place. That person left the room.
00:50:40We were on a phone call listening,
00:50:42and the first thing that came out of our Chief Counsel person's mouth was, if we have to do this,
00:50:47we will only do what's legally sufficient.
00:50:51One of our Border Patrol folks and OFO folks chimed in
00:50:54with, we can tell management it won't work. They will believe us.
00:50:59We can make any pilot or
00:51:03exercise in this fail.
00:51:05The real over the top for us was at the end of that banter back and forth, one of the individuals said,
00:51:12if we have to, we will get the press to film us
00:51:16forcibly taking DNA from an 89-year-old woman to garner public outrage.
00:51:22So I saw that in your longer testimony,
00:51:25but it still begs the question, why?
00:51:28It defies logic, sir. We're the largest law enforcement agency in the federal government,
00:51:34and we're thwarting one of the greatest tools that have been provided to us.
00:51:38You mentioned that the DNA
00:51:40Fingerprint Act of 2005
00:51:43was passed when it was just a
00:51:45the right idea. It was done in connection with the Adam Walsh Act at the same time.
00:51:50This was at a time we were focusing on tools that allowed us to be more efficient and effective in our law enforcement.
00:51:57So one question or one reason I could think of is it was just inordinately expensive and they simply didn't have it in their budget.
00:52:04So that leads me to question you, Mr. Kibble. You're expert in this. What does a rapid
00:52:11DNA test cost?
00:52:14Senator, at the
00:52:16back in that time period, it was roughly
00:52:19$200 a test.
00:52:22And that time period would be 2010? No, no.
00:52:25Around the 2000,
00:52:27well, between 2010,
00:52:302018, 19.
00:52:32Recent innovations have brought that down to, like at scale, if you were deploying it
00:52:37fully along the border, it would drop down probably to about $100 a test.
00:52:43So discuss that technology. I mean, is it a nasal swab?
00:52:49Like a PCR test?
00:52:52Sir, it's a buccal swab. It's a cheek swab.
00:52:56It would be incorporated into just the basic procedures that OFO and Border Patrol follow currently.
00:53:03It's just that instead of taking the swab and dropping it in an envelope and mailing it
00:53:09to join the 15-month backlog at the FBI laboratory,
00:53:13you would process it on-site or nearby and within 90 minutes
00:53:17you'd have what's called a short, an STRID, a short tandem repeat ID,
00:53:21which is nothing more than basically like a hyper-accurate fingerprint. Doesn't contain medical information or anything.
00:53:27And you're able to then make an instant,
00:53:29you know, bounce it against national and international databases to see if you have any derogatory information on this.
00:53:35So why do we have, with this technology that exists, why do we have such an enormous backlog at FBI?
00:53:40They just haven't updated their technology?
00:53:43I can't answer that, Senator. I'm not sure. I do, you know, with the Rapid DNA Act of 2017,
00:53:48the FBI established procedures to be able to ingest Rapid DNA, STRIDs, from booking stations throughout the country, state and local agencies.
00:53:57I do know they have considered Rapid DNA as a way to augment their capacity at the laboratory.
00:54:03I think they also are pursuing robotics to try to process about 120,000 samples a month.
00:54:09But the issue with all of that is
00:54:12you want to test it where you're collecting the DNA so the
00:54:15officer or the agent can make an informed decision right here and now before you let them into the country.
00:54:19And again, you could have the results in 90 minutes with today's technology
00:54:23in terms of computerization. We could
00:54:26run a match on that and have the results in
00:54:29very short order, correct? Very short order. And again, to the issue that you addressed before,
00:54:35you've got to do it locally, I mean, to get the familiar, if you're going to determine whether it's a fraudulent family unit. And
00:54:41DNA testing, whether it's Rapid or not, is agnostic.
00:54:44It can determine that there is a child trafficking situation going on here, or this is an authentic family unit.
00:54:50Okay, well again, thank you. I want to thank
00:54:53again, the whistleblowers for coming forward,
00:54:55and again, Senator Grassley for being a champion for you.
00:55:01I'm going to go to Mr. Kimmel
00:55:05and ask you similar
00:55:07to what Senator Johnson did,
00:55:10but give you an opportunity to maybe give us some more information.
00:55:14Could Rapid DNA technology be employed across our entire southern and northern border?
00:55:21And then
00:55:22in conjunction with the $100 you talked about cost, do you have any idea of what it would cost on an annual basis?
00:55:31Senator, I don't have the annual numbers,
00:55:34but you could basically project what are the candidate pool in terms of the encounters, the two million plus
00:55:40folks that are being encountered along the border, and you could extrapolate based on the $100 test cost.
00:55:47What would it look like? We could deploy it across the entire southern border.
00:55:51You could do it in phases depending on what the budget allows. You could have a mobile capability that allows you to take
00:56:00a group of machines or instruments to where there are high flow areas, and you can augment, you can shift,
00:56:06you can be very agile in your response with the Rapid DNA technology.
00:56:10So it doesn't have to be deployed everywhere at once,
00:56:13but you could strategically deploy that capability at or near the border
00:56:17in order to get the immediate results that we need before we release these folks within 72 hours.
00:56:25Thank you for that. I want to, there was a follow-up that I wanted to do with
00:56:31Mr.
00:56:33No, this would be for each of you three people,
00:56:36and I think I know the answer, but I want to hear it from you, and it's probably just a yes or no answer.
00:56:42Your treatment as whistleblowers, in your opinion, has Senator Mayorkas failed to comply with the whistleblower protection laws?
00:56:51Mr. Nguyen.
00:56:52Yes, Senator, I believe he has. He has either ignored
00:56:56the whistleblower protection laws or his staff has shielded him from any unpleasant facts about CBP's retaliation.
00:57:03So that suggests an unacceptable level of either malice or dysfunction.
00:57:09Mr. Taylor.
00:57:12Senator, I would have to agree with that. We do know that the
00:57:18current Inspector General for DHS has been aware of this for, we believe, at least five years.
00:57:24We've reached out no less than a half dozen
00:57:27opportunities, or I'm sorry, no less than a half dozen times to him,
00:57:31and
00:57:34through the work of your staff, your committee, if you go and google CBP
00:57:40DNA whistleblower, I believe that we own the first four or five pages of results.
00:57:46We're recently on the front page of Government Executive. This is not a secret what's going on with us or what's going on at CBP.
00:57:54And Mr. Jones.
00:57:57In short, yes, sir. I do believe that the Secretary has not protected us and followed through on the Whistleblower Protection Act.
00:58:05Have each of you continued to be retaliated on beyond what I said in my opening statement?
00:58:16Senator, at
00:58:18approximately the end of 2018,
00:58:20I reached the limits of my ability to tolerate being iced and I sought a separate position within Customs and Border Protection.
00:58:27So I can say that the retaliation against me has ceased. However, I am on a
00:58:32drastically different career path than I would have been.
00:58:39Senator, since the removal of
00:58:42my law enforcement retirement, my firearm, my law enforcement credentials,
00:58:47the position description change,
00:58:50short of terminating me, there's no basically more reprisal that can be done.
00:58:55Just by the change of my status as a non-law enforcement officer employee,
00:59:00has likely precluded me from participating in some of the
00:59:04committees and groups that we have because you're required to be a sworn law enforcement officer.
00:59:09So,
00:59:10again, was there any retaliation as of recently? Again, the only further steps that could take with me
00:59:16besides sticking me in a broom closet or terminating me have already been done.
00:59:22Thank you. Senator Grassley, I was demoted three levels. My career progression
00:59:27was removed. My reason for leaving the FBI was to come to Customs and Border Protection
00:59:34to help them build a counter weapons of mass destruction program.
00:59:38That vocation was clearly taken from me. As Mike stated, my firearm,
00:59:44my authorities,
00:59:46my credentials also stripped from me. It was
00:59:50in one act the final, I'll call it coup de grace, of
00:59:54my position and career within CBP. Looking into the future,
01:00:01I have no place to go. We have been with six years with no valid employee appraisals. We get NAs for
01:00:09all of our categories. So even attempting to go within government,
01:00:14we're being retaliated against because we can't go anywhere because any agency will ask for your last
01:00:19employee appraisal as a gauge on whether you are an acceptable employee or not.
01:00:28So it does continue. I had someone recently say to me that they equated our existence to
01:00:34career terrorism, where we don't know what CBP is going to do to us next. And as Mike said, short of
01:00:42actual termination,
01:00:44we've been about as diminished as we can be and sit idle today.
01:00:50Is it fair for me to assume for each of you three whistleblowers that there's never been any
01:00:58corrective action taken
01:01:00against the officials who engaged in this retaliation against you,
01:01:06Mr. Wynn? Senator, that's correct. We are not aware of any such action that's been taken. Mr. Taylor?
01:01:13Senator Grassley, to the contrary
01:01:15of these individuals, minus the two that have been retired, they're no longer with the agency.
01:01:21One individual was promoted to the senior executive service. Another individual was promoted to the
01:01:27position of assistant commissioner.
01:01:29The third manager was temporarily promoted to an acting deputy executive director position.
01:01:35Other individuals, as Mr. Wynn had mentioned earlier, have been permitted to retire
01:01:40or lateral to other offices or other DHS components
01:01:44with no encumbrances, despite the Office of Special Counsel
01:01:48highlighting many of these individuals' specific acts of retaliation.
01:01:54They were not investigated. None of them have been investigated. When you're under investigation, you have what's called a red book.
01:02:01And that allegation must be either substantiated or cleared before it normally, under normal circumstances,
01:02:08you're allowed to leave a position or go to another office
01:02:11because these people have not been
01:02:14investigated in any way, shape, or form. They're allowed to move about freely on their own career path or
01:02:20wherever they choose.
01:02:22And Mr. Jones?
01:02:24Yes, sir. Senator Grassley, it should not go unrecognized that from the outset
01:02:29our CBP leadership has had little interest in addressing any of the malfeasance
01:02:33with respect to the failures of the agency leadership, implementing the DNA Fingerprint Act law, the obstruction of the pilot,
01:02:40or those who have continued to actually retaliate against us.
01:02:43The CBP Office of Professional Responsibility was initially tasked by OSC
01:02:48to investigate our disclosure.
01:02:50At the conclusion of the OSC investigation, the Special Counsel stated in his letter to the President and Oversight Bodies on August 21st, 2019,
01:03:00I write this letter to inform both the President and Congressional Oversight Committees of this misconduct.
01:03:07And it is my hope that further action can be taken to bring CBP into compliance with the law.
01:03:13I strongly urge Congress to continue its robust oversight efforts in this area
01:03:17with a particular focus on accountability
01:03:20for DHS and CBP officials who have known for years
01:03:25that this situation existed but chose not to act.
01:03:29I note that a number of CBP officials central to the agencies in action
01:03:35were identified by the whistleblowers, but never interviewed by in the investigation because CBP
01:03:41dismissed the extent of their involvement. The only ones so far that have been in any way punished has been us.
01:03:50Let me check on the status of Senator Scott. Is he still coming? Yes, he is.
01:03:56I have to go at four o'clock and it's our understanding that Mr. Scott will be here soon. Yes, sir. Ten minutes.
01:04:03So maybe you haven't been informed of this, so I may be informing you, but can you just stay there and be
01:04:13take a rest. Thank you all very much. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you, Senator.
01:04:33So
01:05:03So
01:05:33So
01:06:03So
01:06:33So
01:07:03So
01:07:33So
01:08:03So
01:08:33So
01:08:40Doing well, sir
01:08:58Thank each of you for your service and thank you for being here today
01:09:03We clearly have a crisis at our southern border. It is a complete failure. I don't think anybody can deny that
01:09:10America is a more dangerous place because President Biden, Bordasar, Vice President Kamala Harris and Secretary of Mayorkas have allowed criminals
01:09:17drugs, terrorists,
01:09:19and other dangerous people into our communities all across our great country.
01:09:24There are real consequences to the failure to secure the border and each victim has a name.
01:09:29Lincoln Riley, Rachel Morin, Jocelyn Nogari,
01:09:33Lizbeth Gutierrez Salazar, and her two sons, ten-year-old Juan and seven-year-old Julian.
01:09:40These are just a few of the many Americans killed by illegal immigrants that were released into our country by Joe Biden.
01:09:46Real Americans, average citizens,
01:09:49the ones that live a normal life, are being killed.
01:09:52Real American families are being torn apart by vicious crimes and deadly drugs because we have a wide open southern border
01:09:59intentionally done by President Biden.
01:10:02As President Biden's Bordasar, Vice President Harris, utter failures
01:10:07to secure our southern border have allowed historic illegal immigration
01:10:10and tons of deadly fentanyl to pour into our communities and kill thousands of our fellow Americans.
01:10:16We also know that the federal government is an expert at wasting our taxpayer dollars.
01:10:21I want to thank each of you for being here today for your courage to speak up in an effort to improve our federal government.
01:10:27I introduced the Stop Human Trafficking of Unaccompanied Migrant Children Act,
01:10:31which addresses the unbelievable reports of unaccompanied migrant children being
01:10:35released to sponsors
01:10:37under this administration who have not received proper screening from the Department of Health and Human Services. You can't imagine they're doing this.
01:10:45This bill will ensure extensive vetting by DHS and HHS before a vulnerable unaccompanied child is placed with a sponsor.
01:10:52A 2020 report from the New York Times,
01:10:54which is not known for being unfriendly to the Biden administration, stated that during the first two years of Biden's presidency,
01:11:01his administration could not reach more than 85,000 children.
01:11:06That's unacceptable.
01:11:09Mr. Jones and Mr. Taylor, I have a few questions for each of you.
01:11:12Do you believe DNA tests of illegal aliens should be administered before pre-release
01:11:18and as part of the process when HHS places an unaccompanied migrant child with a prospective relative sponsor?
01:11:26Senator Scott, the DNA tool is invaluable, especially when establishing the family units. So the short answer is yes, sir.
01:11:35Mr. Taylor?
01:11:37I concur, absolutely, Senator.
01:11:40Can you please talk about the importance for testing the DNA of illegal aliens and criminals at our borders
01:11:45as it refers to matching it with prior crimes committed in the U.S.? Any of you?
01:11:54Senator Scott, the DNA Fingerprint Act is a valuable tool that was enacted back in 2006,
01:12:01and it allows us to look at the latent or crimes that are currently unsolved, cold cases,
01:12:08and match them against known identities. So when we're collecting at the border and adding those
01:12:14known identities and then immediately matching them to open criminality,
01:12:18it's an outstanding tool for law enforcement. One of the things we found since 2020
01:12:25is that in the matches that we have actually seen, and in 2023, sir, there were
01:12:311,037 matches due to the DHS
01:12:33collection, even at 37%.
01:12:39We actually found a cold case and reopened it from 1972, sir.
01:12:45The ability to give closure
01:12:48to families,
01:12:50reassurance to victims,
01:12:52and to actually exonerate those who are wrongly accused
01:12:56is something that the DNA Fingerprint Act gives us the ability to do.
01:13:00And by only 37%
01:13:03compliance,
01:13:04there is some progress, but we believe it's linear.
01:13:08So if that's the case, we likely missed over 1,600 violent criminals in 2023 alone.
01:13:15Mr. Taylor?
01:13:18Yes, Senator, to Mr. Jones' point, he is correct.
01:13:22In fact,
01:13:26we believe these statistics are linear. At a 37% compliance rate last year, there were still,
01:13:32not including the Gottaways and the other unknowns, which we do not know, there were still almost 2 million people
01:13:37that we did not collect their DNA from, that we processed at the border.
01:13:43Though this is slowly an improvement, in 2017, CBP, ICE, and DHS, we were collecting DNA from about 3%
01:13:50of, you know, people that we encountered.
01:13:54There were a lot of reasons,
01:13:58misinformation reporting up. The thought for that low level at the time was CBP argued
01:14:02that DNA was being collected downstream and they're being turned over to U.S. Marshals or possibly other law enforcement entities. That was not the case.
01:14:10But
01:14:11to just answer, the short answer to your question is absolutely.
01:14:14It's inarguable.
01:14:16One thing helped me out, if I'm going to speak here,
01:14:19I believe at even a 37% compliance rate, CBP is responsible for about 40%,
01:14:2642%
01:14:28of the annual cases that are being solved through the entire FBI CODIS
01:14:32index.
01:14:33So, for one law enforcement agency, granted CBP is
01:14:37one of the largest law enforcement agencies or the largest in the country, but one agency's solving 40%,
01:14:43or
01:14:45presumptively solving or opening 40% of the cases resident out of the X millions in the FBI CODIS DNA,
01:14:53you know, FBI CODIS index.
01:14:56Right along those lines, too, what's even more interesting is I believe CODIS was first operational in 1997,
01:15:02and we've just started effectively
01:15:05giving them a fair amount of samples less than four years ago.
01:15:08So, if we're solving almost 40% of the annual cases that are being presumptively clued in every year,
01:15:15imagine what we would be doing,
01:15:17you know, at a 90% or 95% rate.
01:15:21Mr. Nguyen?
01:15:24Senator, if I can just kind of put some numbers behind what Mike and Mark have just said,
01:15:28I want to share some numbers with you that apply to simply
01:15:32CODIS hits on DNA samples that were collected just by Customs and Border Protection
01:15:38in FY24.
01:15:39So, just from October
01:15:422023 to
01:15:44June 2024,
01:15:47DNA samples submitted to CODIS by Customs and Border Protection have hit on 10 homicides,
01:15:54145 forcible sex offenses,
01:15:5697 instances of larceny, burglary, robbery,
01:16:00or embezzlement, and 10 assaults.
01:16:03So, that is just a sample at
01:16:06at
01:16:06less than 100% compliance.
01:16:08So, I just ask you to imagine if we were at full compliance the number of cold cases and crimes that we would be helping to
01:16:14solve.
01:16:16Why aren't they doing it?
01:16:22Senator, we've speculated on that question
01:16:25numerous occasions,
01:16:27and I can't give you an answer that I would call definitive. I can speculate, but to me and to us,
01:16:32it's a no-brainer. We should be putting more effort into getting us closer to 100% compliance every day.
01:16:38So, do you think it's a directive
01:16:41from senior leadership?
01:16:46Again, I could only speculate. Anybody else?
01:16:50Senator,
01:16:53as was articulated earlier, there were some
01:16:56CBP employees that recently went down to the southern border,
01:17:00and they visited approximately 12 different stations or offices that were processing migrants,
01:17:07and
01:17:08they noted that DNA was not being collected at any of those facilities.
01:17:13So, you ask the question, is this being directed by
01:17:15executive management?
01:17:17For something that's a requirement from law that's part of the booking process, that sort of thing, I cannot believe,
01:17:23I don't think a reasonable person would believe
01:17:25that that has not been okayed somewhere up the food chain. It would almost be akin to
01:17:32continually question someone after you arrest them to not reading their Miranda rights or
01:17:37not taking their fingerprints. You know, it's
01:17:39part of the booking process now. It's codified in the law,
01:17:43particularly from the clarification that then-Attorney General Barr did in early 2020, that DHS will
01:17:51collect DNA from those
01:17:53non-U.S. persons detained under United States law.
01:17:57This is not a you may or you can't if you would like,
01:18:03but it's a requirement.
01:18:06This isn't a you may or you can't if you would like, it's a you shall, and the fact that it's not being done with
01:18:15clearly no repercussions
01:18:18could lead one to reasonably deduce that this non-compliance is sanctioned at a high level.
01:18:26Could DNA testing at the border have prevented any of the horrific murders by the illegal aliens we have witnessed under the Biden administration?
01:18:35Senator, obviously, we cannot say so with certainty, but at a minimum, every collection of DNA represents a potential new
01:18:43investigative lead that could lead to the solving of many of the outstanding crimes.
01:18:50If DNA would have been collected from illegal aliens
01:18:54entering our country, would it have prevented potential attacks like the attempted breach of the Marine Corps Base
01:18:58Quantico by Jordanian nationals in the U.S.
01:19:01illegally?
01:19:04Senator Scott, that is another one that's hard to say because unless there was a open case
01:19:10of DNA, latent DNA, that would have been matched to that subject,
01:19:14those individuals would have had their profiles logged, but they would have not come up as an active or an open situation.
01:19:21If I may step back, you asked about, you'd mentioned the Morin case earlier.
01:19:27What we do know about that case is that we as CBP and the U.S.
01:19:32had the immigrant in custody three times. He never collected his DNA.
01:19:37He became, on his fourth entry, a gotaway and got past
01:19:41CBP and Border Patrol.
01:19:43We know that in March of last year, he was involved in a home invasion and a rape of a mother and her nine-year-old child.
01:19:51DNA was taken
01:19:53at that crime scene and submitted to CODIS. There was no match because we did not take that DNA.
01:19:58Between March and August,
01:20:00this individual was free to roam about the United States when Rachel Morin was
01:20:06raped and murdered. Do we know that if we had had that initial hit that we should have gotten,
01:20:12we could have stopped him? We don't, but we do know that law enforcement would have had a name,
01:20:18a photograph, and fingerprints of who to look for. And over that period from March to August,
01:20:24if he had been stopped by state and local, if he had been encountered by other federal officials,
01:20:30that record would have been in NCIC,
01:20:33and he would have been detained as a person of interest in that home invasion and rape of the mother and child.
01:20:40So it works, sir. Is it going to stop things?
01:20:44Logically, we think so. We believe so.
01:20:47We can't tell you for sure, but I would bet my paycheck that they will
01:20:51most certainly prevent other criminality when we're able to identify someone who has already committed criminal acts.
01:20:59So,
01:21:01we all have families, right?
01:21:03So what do you think the purpose is that they want to
01:21:08open the borders and not make sure criminals aren't coming across?
01:21:11I mean, they have to have, the people who are making these decisions have to have families, too.
01:21:15Why do you think they don't care?
01:21:18Senator, you actually have us at a loss for words, also. We can't figure it out.
01:21:23We have families, as you said. When we first got involved in this project, when it was originally assigned to us by our then commissioner,
01:21:30we started the research, and we worked with the FBI and the Bureau of Prisons, and started looking at what the success stories were.
01:21:37And they motivated us,
01:21:39because it was individualized, and it was a group of people, and it was a group of people who were
01:21:44And they motivated us,
01:21:46because it was individuals that we had encountered multiple times, and had never taken their DNA, and they went to do
01:21:54horrible acts, rapes and murders.
01:21:57And each time we had a success story, it motivated us. It was
01:22:01we were able to now detect this person who is in our country
01:22:06that is
01:22:07and has committed criminal acts, and we're now able to interdict them because of this
01:22:13law and this process. So,
01:22:15why? No, sir. I have no idea why.
01:22:20Well, first of all, thank you for being willing to speak up,
01:22:23and
01:22:25I hope you're being treated fairly.
01:22:27So,
01:22:29I don't know if you want to talk about that.
01:22:34Senator Scott, Senator Grassley has been a champion for us in the whistleblower
01:22:38retaliation piece. Our retaliation started in earnest in February of 2018,
01:22:45when the three of us were removed from our positions in one day.
01:22:49I was removed as a director of the WMD division. Mr. Taylor was my deputy, and Fred was part of our team.
01:22:56The division was disbanded,
01:22:58and since then,
01:22:59we have sat without a counter-WMD division within Customs and Border Protection.
01:23:05That, to me, is also another vulnerability that has been created because
01:23:10we've been retaliated against for coming forward and bringing this to the attention of our leadership.
01:23:18I just don't get it. I just don't understand why people don't want to secure our country.
01:23:25It doesn't make sense. Yes, sir.
01:23:27Senator Scott, if
01:23:30the initial attorney that wrote the initial disclosure about CBP's non-compliance with collecting DNA,
01:23:38very, very sharp gentleman. Unfortunately, he has left federal service,
01:23:44but it took us an hour and a half to explain to him,
01:23:47because he couldn't, when we were first explaining our disclosure, because it was absolutely not plausible to him.
01:23:54He just kept saying,
01:23:55this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. This absolutely does not make sense.
01:24:01And as we started showing,
01:24:03we provided him all the background information for the law. We provided
01:24:10statistics from the FBI. We provided statistics from CBP's own website.
01:24:14This is how many encounters we had. We had 600,000 encounters. The whole agency sent in 304
01:24:21DNA samples, and we presume most of those came from our JTTF task force guys that were working with the Bureau.
01:24:29We've heard theories of this non-compliance, of the fact that Attorney General Barr changed the law in March
01:24:362020 and gave the Attorney General the absolute authority to order DHS to do so.
01:24:42There's been
01:24:43speculation that they're not bigger than us.
01:24:45Nobody's going to tell us what to do. That does not explain what had transpired in the decade beforehand.
01:24:51But to your point, and I wish
01:24:54it was, I think one of the greatest impressions we made on the individual, the investigator,
01:24:59the Office of Special Counsel that wrote the original disclosure report, was he could not get over
01:25:04just,
01:25:06he said there was no, he could put no logic to it. He was quite an analytical individual, and he just said this.
01:25:12It did not make sense when he explained it to then Special Counsel Henry Kerner either. To your point,
01:25:18this is an absolute no-brainer
01:25:21that the technology we were going to speak to earlier did not come down to.
01:25:26The FBI has streamlined the process. It adds about 30 seconds to the booking process
01:25:31to swab DNA, to tie that particular swab to the,
01:25:36with a barcode, you can shoot with a gun that's automatically tied to the prints in the person's profile.
01:25:41The backlog according to the FBI, according to last week, has been, is all but non-existent anymore.
01:25:47And even if they don't get results for two to five days,
01:25:51to Mark's previous point, if this person is already out of custody, at least their DNA profile
01:25:58is linked to their arrest profile, their interdiction profile, just like their fingerprints are, just like their photograph is.
01:26:04And a great example that came up before, the recent New York machete case,
01:26:09where the individual, the gentleman's name was Christian Ingenlonghi,
01:26:14it was, this was a case in New York City, you may be familiar, he tied up the young,
01:26:18the young man and the young lady and raped the young girl.
01:26:22He committed this crime on, on June 13th in 2024.
01:26:29DNA was collected from the young lady through the, through the victim kit.
01:26:34He was identified immediately because he gave, a DNA sample was taken by immigration officials
01:26:42three years prior to that. He was on the lam. The gentleman was arrested five days later.
01:26:47And when they caught him, it was in the news, apparently he was hiding under a vehicle.
01:26:51So there was an example of, in a very short period of time, we know who this guy is.
01:26:58We know he's here in New York and we're going to find him.
01:27:02So again, it's, it's, we understand there are a lot of political things I'd mentioned before
01:27:09your arrival here today, that this passed the house 416 to four and passed unanimously in
01:27:15the Senate. This is probably one of the least partisan pieces of legislation in the last
01:27:20hundred years. I'll follow all that, but it's, we, we seldom see such agreement that this is
01:27:27really a good idea and somehow we're not doing it. And to your point, it is absolutely inexplicable.
01:27:35All right. Well, thanks for what each of you are doing and you're right. Senator Grassley
01:27:39does a great job working with whistleblowers and taking tough issues and trying to make
01:27:44something good happen. He does, he does a great job. So thank you for being here.
01:27:48Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
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