True Crime Masters Tell All | Variety & Rolling Stone Truth Seekers Summit
Variety & Rolling Stone Truth Seekers Summit presented by Paramount+, explores the art of documentary and investigative storytelling. Exclusive keynote conversations and panel discussions with leading documentary filmmakers, journalists, and cultural trendsetters making an impact and effecting change.
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00:00So first things first, why don't you guys introduce yourselves to the audience and tell
00:03me a little bit about how you guys got started in this genre. Amara, do you want to go first?
00:09Hello, my name is Amara Khofer. I am the host and creator of Black Girl Gone, a true crime podcast
00:15about missing and murdered black women in America. I got started with my podcast just I was a fan of
00:21the true crime genre, but I noticed that there was not a lot of these stories being told. And
00:28as a black woman, I felt like it was important to try to bring these stories to the forefront
00:32and bring more awareness to the fact that there are a number of missing black women and girls,
00:38and a lot of unsolved murders of black women and girls. And so that's why I started my platform
00:42to try to bring attention to these stories. My name is Brian Knappenberger. The project that
00:51I've done that's most relevant to this is a series for Netflix called The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez.
00:56And I don't really think of it as true crime. It's a little bit, I feel it's almost a little
01:00sleight of hand, but it does start with the death of an eight-year-old boy in Santa Clarita,
01:06California at the hands of his parents. And we follow a death penalty trial through the main
01:13part of the series. And what it actually is, is a kind of investigation of the foster care system
01:20in Los Angeles and some real failings on the part of LA County officials that led to his death.
01:28And it's a case in which the social workers that were put in charge of this young boy, Gabriel
01:36Fernandez, they were also put on trial as well. It's the first time that's ever happened. So we
01:40follow those trials, but it looks like true crime probably from the outside, but it's really an
01:45investigation into the foster care system in Los Angeles. My name is Christian Hansen. I produced
01:53a documentary called The Octopus Murders, which is a murder mystery spy thriller documentary that
02:01centers on the story of a journalist named Danny Casolaro who died under mysterious circumstances
02:06in 1991. I came across the project or the story of Danny just kind of out of left field. It's
02:15kind of a long and almost irrelevant story because I stumbled upon it and I became completely
02:21obsessed with the story. And with the help of my good friend Zach, who's here, we figured out how
02:27to make it into a documentary series. My name is Geeta Gunbir and I have two series that I worked
02:34on that I show ran and directed that I think fall similarly, I think fall into this genre, but one
02:41is Black and Missing for HBO, which is closely related to the work that Amara does. And then I
02:47also did a series called Bored in Synanon, which is about the cult of Synanon. So those are
02:55the two that sort of fit into the genre. Hi, my name is Muta Ali. The latest film I've done
03:03related to crime is called Movie Pass, Movie Crash. And thank you so much. I'm so delightful to hear
03:10that. So that I would say is related to financial crime and the trial is set for next year. So I
03:19can't make too many accusations, but that's floating around in the plot. And prior to that,
03:26that's on HBO right now. And also prior to that, I did a different project that's on HBO called
03:32Yusuf Hawkins Storm Over Brooklyn. So that wasn't financial crime. That was the murder of a young
03:37kid named Yusuf Hawkins in 1989. And it surrounds the murder and the family and the community. So
03:46that's why I'm here. Andrew Jarecki, I made various films, but the thing we're here to
03:53talk about or maybe talk about is called The Jinx, which is something I started working on
04:00oddly like 20 years ago. Luckily, I've done other things in the meantime.
04:07But yeah, that was an unusual situation. I started working on a narrative film about Robert Durst
04:15because I knew he had this unusual story. And for years, people had been talking about him in
04:19association with three different murders. His wife had disappeared in 1982. And then 18 years later,
04:28the district attorney in Westchester County identified a witness they had never spoken to.
04:33They go out to try to talk to her. She's found murdered. So there's a second murder 18 years
04:39later. They don't really pin this on Bob Durst at all, even though arguably he had potentially
04:46killed this person because she knew something about the murder of his wife back in 1982.
04:52And then he was floating around for a while, also sort of unaccused of that crime.
04:57And about nine months later, this body washes up on the beach in Galveston, Texas,
05:02and it's the dismembered corpse of an elderly drifter. Turns out that was a friend of Robert
05:08Durst's. And Robert Durst was at the time living in Galveston, disguised as a mute woman.
05:14So all these things led me to think that this might be something that was worth
05:18throwing away, spending 20 years of my life on. No, but the truth is, it was a very unusual
05:26journey and hugely valuable and taught me a lot about human beings. And that's sort of the nature
05:32of crime stories for me. We're really not that interested in the crime. We're interested in
05:38the human beings that get wrapped up into these things for reasons they don't always plan or
05:44expect. Yeah, that's a perfect way to start. I also love being on a panel. We're
05:48half of the people are convinced that their projects aren't actually true crime. So with that
05:52in mind, I do think that's an important thing to talk about. I mean, true crime as a phenomenon
05:58has kind of become this buzzy word in the media landscape. And it can cover a wide range of
06:03projects, a wide range of crimes. And for you guys specifically, where do you think the cultural
06:09connotations of the genre exists right now? And does that inform the way that you all package
06:14your projects? I know after my show came out, I got some messages from people who watched it
06:22and liked it. And one of the messages that really stuck out to me was, I just love murder. I just
06:28love murder so much. I hate murder. I really do. But I don't know. I think that's sort of
06:36emblematic of something, obsession with death and destruction. I think I would say too, there's a
06:45long history. Like if you think about, you know, you work in podcasts, but there were like always,
06:50crime has always captivated large audiences since time began. There used to be radio dramas,
06:56right, where people would listen to, you know, stories recreated and just the headlines, you
07:01know, crime always kind of takes or is front and center in the spotlight in the news. And I think
07:07it's true that a lot of like when I honestly was, we were in the back room like, what's true crime?
07:11Like, what are we talking about? We had to Google it. Yeah. Yeah. We had to Google it just to figure
07:15out the genres. Cause I do think there's sort of what people think of as procedurals, you know,
07:20sort of a procedural, this, a singular person was murdered and we twist and turn to find like
07:26Agatha Christie-ish type work. And then there's greater, you know, stories that are much greater
07:32about a whole community, right. That is possibly devastated. So I think there's I too, I'm one of
07:38those people who wasn't sure. Like, I think like a bunch of us were like, is this true crime what
07:42we do? But I think because sometimes there's that veneer of it that is put out into the world,
07:49right. But then on the inside, there's much, much more. Yeah. And I think Brian, we talked about
07:53this earlier, the idea of, it might be harder to convince people to watch eight hours of
07:59investigation to the foster care system. So for you specifically, what did the packaging look like
08:04for your project? Well, I yeah, I feel like I'm using, you know, I'm almost manipulating the
08:11expectations of the audience a little bit and using those expectations and tropes to kind of
08:15like make it look like one thing. And then once you're kind of there and engaged in the story,
08:20I mean, we're, we're compelled by human stories. That's what we, that's, that's what draws us in.
08:25And so, so yeah, I, we were, we were looking at investigating the system. And then the story
08:32broke about Gabriel and we started looking into it. And the story itself had a kind of momentum
08:36and caused a lot of the, the, the subsequent police action and stuff and the trials and all
08:43of that stuff. So, you know, I guess, I guess I'm sort of always looking for, you know, these,
08:48these sort of two things, big, big picture, interesting kind of cultural things that feel
08:53relevant and insightful, but then, you know, some immediate kind of story that kind of gets you and
08:58grabs you and gets you, gets you into it. And I think that's, that's kind of what it is. But,
09:03but it did feel a little bit like, you know, we're telling the story of Gabriel, whose
09:07story I genuinely believe needed to be told for a kid who was forgotten during his life
09:15and, and ignored, criminally kind of ignored. And, you know, I thought he should be, you know,
09:21number one series on Netflix, you know, or, you know, or at least put on that platform. So,
09:28the, yeah, I feel like I'm, in that project in particular, I'm saying, look, you know,
09:35here's a, here's a crime story. Here's a story that's engaging, that's, that, that people aren't
09:41drawn into, but, but really you're taking it somewhere very, very different. And you're,
09:45you're looking for an off ramp to these bigger pictures, kinds of issues.
09:48And I think I really appreciate, and a lot of people appreciate about the projects that
09:52all of you have worked on. It's kind of the idea of the person first, right? This isn't just a
09:58crime. The source is also important. So maybe Andrew, we'll start with you. Building trust
10:02and rapport is something that plays a huge role in the outcome of projects, especially when there
10:06are sources who are being reached out to by multiple people. Multiple people are saying,
10:10I want to tell the story and you have to convince someone, not only will they be willing to talk,
10:15but you want to talk to me. How do you go about that process?
10:20I think the most important thing is that you are just genuinely interested and you are interested
10:26in what they have to say, right? That you're not coming into it with like a deck that says,
10:31here's what's my documentary premise and this is how I'm going to go about it. And here's a list
10:36of people I'm going to talk to. But that somebody for some reason has really compelled you with
10:41their story. In this case, I was writing a feature film about Robert Durst's relationship
10:49with his first wife, because it was strangely this like origin story of this love affair between
10:54these two young people. And everything I read about it was about how Bob Durst, this incredibly
11:00quirky, wealthy, very quotable person, had done all these crazy things. But what interested me
11:09at that point was this beautiful girl who he had gotten together with. She was 19 when they met.
11:17She was extremely smart. She was from a totally different walk of life, right? She had no money.
11:23She was from a very modest family. And he fell in love with her and vice versa.
11:28And then terrible things happened, as often did when people got in touch with Bob Durst.
11:35And she ended up disappearing. She really interested me. And so when we were making
11:41that feature film, I went out and interviewed dozens of people who had known them. And the
11:47most important people I interviewed were her family. And so I went out and met Jim McCormick,
11:52who was Kathy McCormick's brother, who had spent, you know, the last 30 years just trying to find
11:59out what happened to his sister and trying to hold somebody accountable. In this case,
12:03he knew that it was Bob Durst. So to me, he was somebody who was not talking widely. And he said
12:09to me, well, when you emailed me, you said you wanted to tell the story about Kathy. And when
12:14you have a guy like Bob Durst in the room, who's so eminently, hysterically, bizarrely, tragically
12:21terrible, he's going to be the star. And you guys really cared about what had happened. And that's
12:27why I spoke to you. So I think it always just comes from a place of genuine interest. You can't
12:31really fake that. Yeah. And Gita, maybe you can speak to a little bit to what it is like when
12:35you're not talking to just one source, but multiple sources who might have a community incentive to
12:40stay silent. Who might have a community incentive to stay silent? Like the idea of when we're
12:47talking about Synanon, the idea that these are, especially for the older generation who have been
12:51in this community for a long time, feel like it's in their best interest to stay silent. And that
12:56if they speak to you, there might be repercussions societally, in their own community.
13:01Sure. Sure. So now I think that's, again, there's a long term, there's a long process,
13:07I think. And unfortunately, sometimes with the schedules we have, we don't always have that
13:11much time anymore. But I think there is a process of sitting with folks, again, letting them,
13:17being transparent about your intentions for the piece and making it clear to them that you were
13:24also doing, for films that have a community where there's multiple perspectives, to be honest
13:29and transparent from the beginning that you were doing a 360. I think this is something that I was
13:35very, in working with, particularly if it's a community, just making it clear to them that
13:42we will be talking to people who will likely say these things, who have a different perspective.
13:48And this is an opportunity for you to share what it was for you. Because if you don't address it,
13:53that ends up in there, too. The silence. Silence also speaks volumes. We all know this.
13:59So I think the, but I think just staying true to the intention from the beginning to the end,
14:06and also staying close, like keeping people informed and abreast of what you are doing.
14:13And there is a lot now, I think it's very different than when we all maybe started,
14:17but there's a lot about how working with, as we used to say, like participants, we now refer
14:24to the folks, they are participants. So you also, they are part of the process of sort of
14:31shaping the storytelling and giving them some of that agency by what they reveal and letting them
14:36know that is super important. Can I add one small thing? Absolutely. Sometimes you do have sources
14:44that are putting themselves in danger by talking to you occasionally when, you know, whistleblowers
14:49and other things. And so part of that process is understanding the means by which you communicate
14:54with them and how secure that is. And that's part of the feeling comfortable and feeling,
15:01you know, in a space where people can actually talk to you. Sometimes people are revealing
15:05things that will have real effects on their lives. And that's kind of your responsibility
15:09as a filmmaker to make sure that doesn't happen. Yeah. I love the idea of talking about responsibility
15:15because I know Amara specifically, you've talked a lot about how you started in true crime and
15:20specifically in the genre, it's often viewed as, you know, not only just a white space, but a space
15:26where oftentimes the stories of people of color are continuously overlooked. So for you, how have
15:31you used your platform to kind of counter that narrative or change it? So yeah, I, like you said,
15:38it's a space that is, you know, kind of people think is dominated by these certain types of
15:42stories and it is. And that's why I started. But what I've tried to do is tell these stories in
15:49the same exact way. Why do you, why are people listening to true crime? What is it? Is it the
15:53storytelling? Is it the, you know, you want to know about this, the victim, if you want to know about
15:58the crime, I come at it from that. So when you're listening to these stories about these missing and
16:03murdered black women or girls, it's, you know, the podcast is called Black Girl Gone. There's stories
16:08about missing and murdered black women, but I want you to be able to close your eyes. If you never
16:11saw this woman, how would her story resonate with you? Can you relate to her story? Because there's
16:16this notion that the stories of black victims are not relatable to masses or everybody, but people
16:23can't relate to these stories. And what I found is that's absolutely not true because their stories
16:27are relatable. Their mothers, their daughters, their sisters, their students, you know, they had
16:33dreams, they had aspirations, they had all the things that, you know, we all have. And if we
16:36elevate these stories and tell them in a real way and not just make it about, you know, the
16:40sensationalism of what happened to them or they were shot or they were, you know, all of these,
16:45you know, details that people sometimes, you know, want. If you don't just focus on that and focus on
16:50the whole story, the whole picture of who this person was, the families that they left behind,
16:55that's also a really important part of what I do is making sure that if a family member is
17:00listening or they hear this story, they, you know, it's not this sensationalized story of all these
17:07terrible things that have happened, but it's nostalgia for them in this way. They're like,
17:12oh, somebody is talking about her like a real person. They're talking about, you know, when
17:16she graduated from high school and how she wanted to go to college. So, you know, I use my platform
17:20to just try to elevate these stories and humanize these women in spaces where their stories are not
17:26being heard and give their families that, you know, that outlet. Yeah. I mean, that sounds
17:32really beautiful and also a very important part about kind of true crime. The best stories often
17:37have a 360 narrative, you know, like you said. So, Muta Ali, just for you specifically, and then
17:42maybe we can expand this to the rest of the panel. How do you process working on a story where the
17:47justice is still ongoing? I mean, earlier you said, you know, there's a court case still in
17:50place. And for you, especially when we're talking about crime, how do you keep the story fresh
17:55when the end product might come out and new news has developed? I mean, that's a good question.
18:01And I didn't consider that you'd ask me that, but at the same time, I think that's something
18:07that happens later. How do we keep this story fresh? The beginning of the process really is
18:10really a lot of analysis for me. And the first step is I speak with the people who are at the
18:15center of the story. So, in the case of MoviePass, I spoke with Stacey Spikes and Hamae Watt, the
18:19founders of MoviePass, and had an understanding of their experience and what they felt happened
18:24to them. And so, the details of any sort of criminal activity, the details of all of that,
18:31it was secondary. And I don't set out to really investigate a crime as much as to investigate
18:39and put on a platform the human experience, right? And then once you do that, you can hang on it
18:43like ornaments. They say these facts and these details. Keeping it fresh, though, I think is
18:50making sure you get some moments from the people on camera. I think my personality is such that I
18:56always, no matter what, my interviews will have some sort of like gravity to them because I'm like
19:01really want to know what you're thinking and feeling and all that. And so, that comes through.
19:05And in some ways, that can keep the story fresh and interesting, even if you're speaking about
19:10something that could otherwise be received as mundane, right? And so, I think how we interview
19:15helps. And then just having a good editor, you know, basic stuff like that, that could help
19:22things become fresh. But I do want to second what Amara is saying. I think culturally, when people
19:26are looking at true crime, there are wins when we see that a story is being told that needed to be
19:35told and it never was told. And so, I think that as part of the true crime culture, just deciding
19:42in the MoviePass story to center Stacey and Hamae, the two black founders of this tech company,
19:51made a difference. You could tell the story of the rise and fall of the MoviePass without Stacey
19:55and Hamae. And people were in the middle of trying to do that, not the people I was
20:00working with. And I think so, making sure that you center the right people and making sure that you
20:06have these genuine conversations, that'll keep it fresh no matter what you're talking about.
20:10Yeah. Does anyone else want to speak to that? No? All right. Next question.
20:14Do you really need an ending? That was perfect. I feel like we should clap maybe. I don't know.
20:20Oh, wow. Thanks, guys. I do actually want to point to that because I feel like that is a very
20:25interesting point, the idea of narrative being so important. And also, you guys are working with
20:30these people. You're convincing them to talk to you. You're being one-on-one. You're being open.
20:35So, I'm interested in how you all as creatives, how do you navigate not becoming part of the story
20:42itself? And what do you do when it happens? When do you say, full send? I'm in this now. Let's
20:47tell it the best way we can. Anyone can take that if they'd like. Well, I'll just say, as a podcaster,
20:54I'm obviously behind the microphone, which helps. My filmmakers have a little different things going
21:01on. But for me, one of the things that I was always afraid of was like, I don't want people
21:06to make this podcast about me. That was always my biggest fear. My husband was like, you should put
21:12yourself on camera. You should do this. And I'm always like, I don't want to make this about me
21:16because I don't want people to focus on me as the storyteller. I just want them to listen to
21:21the story. So, as a podcaster, I've found it a lot easier just because of the nature of what I do
21:28to not center my... And it's still hard because once you grow a fan base, then people do want to
21:33know more about you and they feel like they're connected to you. And so, you want to find a
21:38balance between letting people kind of know you without centering yourself in what you're doing.
21:45It's definitely a balance.
21:48I mean, in our case, Bob Durst had called me and I was making a feature film about him
21:55and suddenly he was on the phone. And so, the conversation between me and Bob Durst became
22:01part of the experience. And then as the jinx started to evolve and we started to see what
22:07we were doing, it was clear that the audience was going to need to understand why a guy
22:13who had been accused of three murders had decided to come out of the shadows or decided to
22:21leave his life where he was essentially completely free. He had never been convicted of murder.
22:28Many people had tried to go after him. Why would he have called me? And so, the dialogue between
22:34me and Bob Durst became a central part of the thing. So, there was no really getting around it.
22:40I definitely didn't set out to try to be part of that story. But if I had not been part of the
22:44story, it just wouldn't have worked. Did you ever make the scripted series?
22:49Did you ever make the film? Yeah. Our film, All Good Things, is a very
22:52interesting film. Brian Gosling plays Bob Durst and Kirsten Dunst plays his wife and
22:57Franklin Jella plays his father. Everyone's going to open their letterbox in five minutes.
23:04I'm doc focused. I'm clearly documentary focused.
23:08That's actually a very good thing because I do think the idea of you want the story to be the
23:12best it can. I feel like there are some points where, like I said, you have to full send. You
23:16have to be a part of the story in order to give your audiences a fuller view. Now, one of the
23:21things that we've talked about a lot in True Crime, people call it this idea of a global phenomenon.
23:27As it's something that is both considered news and entertainment, the criticism it's received
23:32pretty strongly is that it can sometimes be exploitative of both victims and families,
23:37people who are surrounding it. Have you guys ever encountered that critique in sharing your work?
23:44Does it inform your process at all? Yeah. We were just talking about that earlier.
23:47We were just talking about this in the group. On a flat level, my father says,
23:52all right, you're exploiting these people. He just likes to play with words because technically,
23:59you are creating a product about these people's story. I think you got to accept that that is part
24:05of it, but you're doing a service. Every documentary that I've done over the last
24:12seven years hasn't been my idea. I've been a resource. I'm grateful that people consider me
24:21such. They come to me and say, can you help me tell this story? After that, like I said,
24:26I'll speak to the people who are involved. With Yusuf Hawkins' Storm Over Brooklyn,
24:31we didn't have any funding at first. We did it independent for a while. Then HBO was the network
24:37that understood the power of the story and the necessity, the need to tell it. Before that,
24:42we interviewed a few people just on our own dollar. Once we interviewed Yusuf's mother,
24:47I'm sitting there across from her and I'm asking her to tell this story.
24:51I had to tell it. I had to tell it for her. They had for 30 plus years not had the chance
24:58to get it off their chest, to have their opinions be expressed. They had some time
25:03to process it. It's a give and take, I think. Technically, you could check the box that
25:10there's money being made. It is a product, but there are benefits to it all around,
25:17to the audience, to the community, to the family, everywhere. I'll eat that if that's
25:23a criticism. I was just talking to Zan Parker, who I met very first time when I went to visit
25:30Al Maisels because I was looking for his advice about this project that later became Capturing
25:35the Freedmen. I remember Al just saying, I said, I want to make sure that I don't exploit
25:42these people. They've been through a lot, people on both sides of the story.
25:46He said, nobody wants to die without telling their story. You're doing something very good
25:52for them. It doesn't mean, if you trick them or you are mean to them or you don't respect them,
25:58obviously, it's like anything else, then that's a negative. Most of the time,
26:03they want to tell their story. If you're really going to listen, you're not going to rush them
26:07through the interview, but you're going to give it the time that it requires. They feel very
26:12relieved. Then especially later, every once in a while, somebody says, you edited the good parts
26:18and you didn't let me talk about how much I hated my mother. David Friedman said that to me once.
26:26For the most part, they feel heard as long as you care about it.
26:31I would say that the difference in whether it's exploitation is the intent behind why you're
26:36doing what you're doing. If you're intending to exploit people, then it's going to be exploitation.
26:41If you're coming at this from an angle where this is a story that I want to tell and you're
26:48genuine about it and your intention in how you tell the story, the reception, not only from the
26:54people that you're trying to get the story from, but the audience. I think the audience can see
26:57through people who are not genuinely caring about the projects that they're working on,
27:01that you're coming from this as a money grab or this is a shock value or whatever.
27:07That to me, that's the difference, is why you're doing what you're doing. I do what I do because I
27:12want to tell these stories, not because I want to exploit victims. I just want to say too,
27:16I had an interesting experience where I actually got the reverse, where I got Forborn and Synanon,
27:23which was again about a cult and a lot of members of folks who had been in this cult opened up.
27:31And obviously, they had done things that they weren't proud of in their participation in the
27:37cult. But similarly, I think you're 100% right. What you said about they felt like they needed
27:43their story to be safe with someone they believed would tell the truth of it, wouldn't just use it
27:49to exploit. Both the good and the bad. They wanted to own up to some of what they felt
27:54they had done, what had gone wrong. They knew that was part of it and we were clear from the
27:59beginning, to tell this story, we're not going to leave out the demise. We're going to tell the
28:04whole story, not just the first part. But what was interesting is that I did get, there was a review
28:10that I was extremely bitter about, but that said that I had not been hard enough on them. That it
28:17was both by being empathetic towards them, or showing empathy to the folks who had joined the
28:23cult, that it was almost too kind to them. And I was like, but that's what we do. I think as
28:33filmmakers, and particularly as documentary filmmakers, and with your podcast, it's our job
28:38to show the 360 of what it means to be human also. And I think in a lot of our films, it's also
28:44like, you know, there but for, you know, whatever, you know, for luck, and maybe, you know, just
28:51chance, go I, right? Like there, it could be, I think the job is to put people in everyone's shoes,
28:57right? You could be, we could be any of those folks. Maybe not Robert Durst.
29:02It's important. It's important. It's important to stay connected to these people. Because you,
29:08you do, in some ways, enhance their lives, and you also disrupt their lives. And it is true
29:13that suddenly they go from obscurity to be sitting at some giant film festival, or to be
29:19interviewed, or whatever, and then that can end. And I remember another Al Maisel's moment. I was
29:25seeing, you know, Al and another very well-known documentary filmmaker in the same week. We were
29:31both having lunch, and I had lunch with Al. And he said, this is after capturing the Freedmen's,
29:35and he said, isn't it wonderful? And I said, what? And he said, well, now you've spent all
29:40these time with these people, and they're going to be in your life forever. You're just going to
29:45be in this relationship with them. And I said, yeah, that's kind of a beautiful thing. And then
29:49I had lunch with this other filmmaker three days later, and she's also brilliant, and she said to
29:54me, isn't it amazing? And I said, what? And she goes, you spent years with these people, and
29:58you're never going to talk to them again. Which one was it?
30:06For me, it's always been the first. I mean, Jesse Freedman and I talk all the time. I talk to
30:12everybody in the Durst story. I talk to all these people that you just say, you know, how could you
30:17not? You're in a real relationship with them. It's going to feel terrible to everybody if you don't
30:22stay connected. And also, you've spent so much time learning their story, you kind of want to
30:27see where it's going, and you want to help them in whatever way you can. So we've, you know,
30:31in Capturing the Freedman's, we worked on their legal case for 15 years after that, you know, and
30:37working on a film right now, I know these people are going to be in my life for a long time.
30:40There's going to be ongoing challenges and problems for them, and you have to do what you can to help.
30:47Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, and if the film, I think, is going to be really good,
30:53you know, the filmmaker has to really like the subject. And I loved all the people as
31:01complicated as some of them were in the show. And yeah, I expect that they'd be in my life for,
31:08you know, for as long as I, you know, can think. So with a genre that's so life-changing, both
31:14for you guys as creatives, and for the people you follow, how do you maintain a good project
31:21when the world around true crime is changing, right? We could talk for another 45 minutes
31:25about how the mediums are changing, how newsrooms are shrinking, and you're more likely to see a
31:31successful true crime project on TikTok than you might on, you know, HBO Max or Max in, you know,
31:38five years. So for you specifically, how did you guys handle this kind of push for streaming with
31:43your projects? How does it affect what you produce? And what are you guys looking at
31:47towards the future of true crime? I know that was very, that was four questions at once.
31:55So maybe we can say, Christian, how did the kind of push for streaming impact how you started your
32:03project and how you're getting your project sold? Oh, I sold the project in the, I think,
32:11like, the crest of the wave of crime series documentaries in 2019. It just took, like,
32:19a really long time for the show to come out. And it seemed, I don't know, I mean, I did,
32:27this is my first film, so I've only done something in the streaming era. I don't
32:33fully understand the push for streaming part of the question. But no, I don't know what it's like
32:40now. And I'm actually really anxious about it, because I've got a bunch of ideas, and I'm really
32:44excited to get started on them. But I'm, you know, nervous, and I don't know what it's going to be
32:49like. I think there's a lot of possibility for this, for the platforms and new platforms that
32:53are, and we're in a moment where journalism has taken quite a hit. You know, that basically the
32:59financial underpinnings of journalism have been decimated. And newsrooms across the country have
33:04been shut down since Facebook, Twitter, Reddit started in 2005, 6, 7. You know, we have a third
33:13of the national newspapers we did at that point. So, you know, this is a platform where we can
33:19bring that. It's kind of up to us as filmmakers. It's kind of up to us as the people who create
33:24this stuff. What's the intent? What's the perspective? Who are you fighting for? What
33:30are you doing? What's your story about? You get to make some of those choices, and that shows up
33:34in the kind of stories that you pick, that you follow, that you pitch. You know, it's not all
33:40up to them. You know, we're creative folks in this panel, in this room, and, you know, we get to sort
33:46of decide some of that direction. And if we sort of maintain that, I think that's just a rich
33:54area to keep kind of moving towards. I just want to point out, I agree with that. I just want to
33:59point out that we can't undervalue the curation that you get in a place like HBO. Like, I've
34:08made almost all my films with, in some context, with HBO. I don't think that it's, that's a minor
34:14fact of my life. I think that's a giant part of what we do, because they bring a kind of audience
34:21that I don't think is just showing up on TikTok. They position the film in a different way. They
34:26work with you to craft the film in the best way. And ultimately, they bring a level of legitimacy
34:33because their curation has been good, because people know that when they turn it on,
34:39they're probably going to find something thoughtful. It just is very different than
34:43saying, well, because there's a channel to get something into the world, you know, that exists.
34:48And also, the uniqueness of just the way that streaming, you know, streaming's not all one
34:54thing. Like, HBO can be streamed, and Netflix, obviously, a streaming platform. But for us,
35:00the decision to have the jinx, the first jinx come out one week at a time, it really built the
35:07audience. People started learning about them, and then they started thinking about it, and then
35:10little sinister things started happening. They knew something was coming. The whole HBO marketing
35:15effort was built around week-by-week water cooler conversation. That still exists, and it's still
35:21important. And I think if we forget about that, and we just say, well, anybody that can stream
35:25something, those are all equal, we're missing that bringing this stuff to the audience is hard to do.
35:33It's not something you just do on your phone, you know?
35:36Yeah, and I think one of the really important things, one, about this panel and other
35:40conversations like it is that we've brought all of you together who are so successful
35:44in such different mediums and such different projects. So maybe, I know we're wrapping up,
35:49but maybe we could each talk about, for you, what excites you about your next project,
35:56and what are you looking to make? I guess I'll start. So I just have the Black Girl Gone podcast
36:04right now, but the next thing I want to do is be able to tell more of these stories. I'm huge fans
36:10of my fellow panelists, and moving into the documentaries and bringing life to these stories
36:18in a different way into different audiences. I mean, podcasting, podcasts are growing,
36:23and the medium is growing, a lot of people, but not everybody is listening to podcasts.
36:27And so to continue my mission and my purpose of making sure that people know about these stories,
36:32and that these conversations around missing and murdered Black women are part of the mainstream
36:37conversation when we talk about true crime, that's what I really want to continue to do.
36:42And I am excited because I see that there is an audience for it. I can feel the momentum building
36:48from what we've been able to create from Black Girl Gone, and I know that maybe not today,
36:54but very soon in the future, you'll be able to see more of these documentaries and more of these
36:59series that are surrounded around the stories of the missing and murdered Black women and girls.
37:05I'm in the throes of a very intense historical documentary right now, which I can't talk about.
37:12But you know what excites me is just the basic intent of what we do as documentary filmmakers.
37:20And for me, that's speaking truth to power. That's putting yourself on the side of the
37:26average person, the average user of technology, the average citizen in the United States,
37:30and understanding what powerful forces might be acting badly. As they say, comforting the
37:38afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. What's the point of your story? What's the point of what
37:44we're doing? And for me, it's not so much getting something on a big streamer or something. It's
37:50literally telling relevant stories and keeping that kind of heartbeat alive.
37:59I also can't talk about stuff and...
38:01Just a lot of NDAs in the room.
38:03Not even that, but just early days. But what I love to do about... What I love is
38:11investigating things and reading and picking up scraps of recent history that are totally forgotten,
38:19but have resonance now and affect our understanding of where we've been, really,
38:29so that we can better understand where we're going into the future. And, yeah, more spies
38:36and more liars and more mind-blowing stuff in the future, hopefully.
38:41Kira?
38:43So I'm equally boring in that I have a bunch of NDAs, but I also have... No, but I will say a
38:49couple of things. I'm really interested in the... I feel like a lot of us who have done social
38:54justice-oriented films, we've always been dealing with crime. When you're talking about
39:01systemic issues, you're talking about crime. But if we're interested in that, I think it's just
39:07about looking at a new angle into the same things that have always interested me and I think a lot
39:15of my fellows in doc film. And it's fun. I had a conversation with a streamer executive recently
39:24who I love, who said, okay, think New York Post on the front, New York Times on the back.
39:29And I was like, oh, okay, great. But I think that's just sort of... We're all trying to still... I
39:35think we're united, including... Again, I've had amazing partnership with HBO and also with Susan
39:41Zurinsky at Paramount. But there was... I feel like those... We're all united in that. It's just,
39:46again, figuring out how to get it made. We have to be creative, so...
39:50Mudali?
39:51Oh, yeah. I can't talk about what I'm doing next to you.
39:53Another NDA.
39:54We're all working together.
39:57Wouldn't that be a shock?
39:59You know what? I'm on a journey right now and I'm appreciating the journey. But I think what I'm
40:05looking forward to is being able to enjoy what I'm doing, because 99% of the time, it's just
40:12gut-wrenching agony and angst. I think someone... If you ask me, do I... Do you want to be a
40:20filmmaker? Do you want to make films? I want to have made films and talk about them. But the
40:27filmmaking process is one that I've learned and evolved to finally maybe feel like not so
40:35frightened. And so I'm excited about what I'll be creating now that I've reached that stage.
40:43Andrew, I think we'll hear from you last. Do you want to...
40:45I'm definitely not going to talk about what I'm working on now. But
40:48I will say just in this moment that I think we have to ask ourselves sometimes, what is it that's
40:54driving people to true crime? And sometimes it's sort of perplexing and sometimes kind of
41:02disturbing. And sometimes you think, well, people just like to see murder or mayhem or whatever.
41:07But I actually think often now I'm seeing just the number of people that are staying up late.
41:14I'm not talking about my wife who's sitting here. This has nothing to do with you. I'm talking
41:18never walked into the bedroom and seen you at midnight asleep. And on the screen, it's just,
41:23and then he walked up behind her and he took the night. But there is a thing about intimate
41:29relationships and how you open yourself up to an intimate relationship. And your greatest fear
41:36is that that person might use that or kill you or betray you. And so to some extent,
41:45and a lot of bad true crime, why does bad true crime work? Because we've all seen this. There's
41:51terrible true crime on television constantly with recreations that are like... And shadows
41:57and all that stuff. And I think a big part of it is just that people are just so gripped by the
42:04fear that if their husband was going to kill them, how would he get away with it? And I guess
42:13I would just say all of us on this stage here... I mean, I would never in any of those pedestrian
42:22ways that you see, I would have a far more creative... All right, let's not admit to any
42:25crimes on a film situation. I guess my point is just everybody on this panel, it's kind of up to
42:33us to try to elevate the genre and to try to figure out whether we can say things about human beings
42:38that are not just about how we're going to kill each other. That's fantastic.
42:43Were you ever afraid of Durst?
42:44Was I ever afraid of Bob Durst? Not really, but there was a moment when it was clear that he knew
42:51that I knew and had this evidence, and then he had started to go on the run, and then I knew that he
42:58was very angry at me. And so there was a little period there where I had...
43:01That is fascinating. You guys might be able to talk about it after this. I do have to get off,
43:05or I'll lose my job. So thank you guys so much. Give a hand to our lovely panelists.