24 Hours in Police Custody S00E12 Cold to the Touch.Part.2
Original air date - (4th January 2022)
The investigation into the death of 11-week-old Baby Teddy concludes. With both mother and her partner under suspicion, a 999 call leads to a dramatic turn in the pursuit of justice for the infant
Original air date - (4th January 2022)
The investigation into the death of 11-week-old Baby Teddy concludes. With both mother and her partner under suspicion, a 999 call leads to a dramatic turn in the pursuit of justice for the infant
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CreativityTranscript
00:00This is part of the old audit. How old is the patient?
00:09Is it old? I just want to find out.
00:13Baby Teddy Thomas Mitchell was in cardiac arrest.
00:18He wasn't conscious and he wasn't breathing.
00:22An 11-week-old baby boy, they don't get skull fractures.
00:27No, well, they don't move.
00:30Baby Teddy died today.
00:42Can you just state your name for the tape, please?
00:44Lucy Smith.
00:45Kane Mitchell.
00:58Hurry up! Hurry up!
01:01They're really volatile, lots and lots of swearing,
01:04lots of swearing at the kids.
01:06Neighbours often calling social care.
01:09We'll need to carry out a forensic post-mortem.
01:13Ribs, spine, both clavicles.
01:17Is this all broken? This is all broken.
01:19The spinal is that.
01:22This is akin to baby P-type injuries.
01:26What we need in order for the CPS to be able to charge
01:29is clear medical evidence.
01:31Baby Teddy died from an inflicted injury.
01:34But it takes time.
01:45It just makes you so angry.
01:56Police! Get on the floor!
01:59This is your opportunity to talk to me.
02:02They have lifted prints. Are they going to be yours?
02:05Every minute that's taken away is evidence you're losing.
02:21Police emergency, how can I help?
02:23Hi, my neighbours are really fighting
02:26and I think you've got Audible, can you hear us?
02:29And I heard him shout, like, the F word,
02:33and then I, like, looked up at the kitchen window
02:35and that's when I saw him just grab her by, like,
02:38the two, like, round the neck and push her against the wall.
02:42And then I could hear her do this awful noise
02:45as if he was, like, strangling her.
02:48This is ridiculous. They shouldn't be around each other.
02:53Makes me nervous.
03:00Hello. Hello, mate, you all right?
03:02You all right? Come in.
03:05Yeah.
03:06What do you want?
03:07I'm not here. I'm nowhere.
03:09It's been domestic or some sort of...
03:11Setting up the internet. Is this a joke?
03:13Beauty. No, I'm sick of...
03:15I'm honestly sick of you looking around here now.
03:17We get calls...
03:18Fucking deafening, mate. My kid's just fucking died.
03:21I'm answering the bell tomorrow
03:22and I've got you two knocking on my fucking door.
03:24Are we all right to speak to you?
03:25Are you all right to speak to my colleague
03:26whilst I speak to her? Is that all right?
03:28About what?
03:29OK, well, we just need to speak to her.
03:31You can get out if you like. You ain't got a warrant.
03:33You can also get out.
03:34I don't need a warrant.
03:35I've told you what I'm doing.
03:36I'm sick of this shit.
03:39Are we all right to just pop in there for two seconds?
03:41Yeah?
03:46Just what's happened, mate? You've told me what's happened.
03:49I'm sick to the fucking death of this. I really am, mate.
03:52I can appreciate your frustration, but we've got a job to do
03:55and when a call comes in, we have to respond to it.
03:59And I appreciate your frustration with it.
04:02Has anything happened?
04:04No.
04:07OK.
04:09I can see some marks round your neck.
04:11Is that anything to do with why we've been called here today?
04:16On this side, I can see some.
04:19Stop around there.
04:20Well, he hasn't even touched me.
04:22Literally, we've been out all day.
04:23Right, OK.
04:24Gas man came this morning.
04:25Yep.
04:26He didn't get out of bed until he went, which was about 12 o'clock.
04:29Right.
04:30And then he went to town, went to the Royal Mail place,
04:33came back here and I'm trying to set that piece of shit up
04:35and that is it.
04:36Right.
04:37There will be no argument here.
04:39OK.
04:40So, that's the end of that.
04:41OK, thanks.
04:42Yeah, if they carry on reporting, because I know it's them,
04:44if they carry on, I'm going to get them...
04:46Well, I'm already getting something sorted out to me,
04:48because I'm actually fucking sick of them reporting.
04:50Right.
04:53If you want to make a complaint, you need to call up on 101.
04:56No, you need to call 101 unless it's an emergency and then it's 999.
05:00I'm not here to take a report for a complaint you wish to make
05:02about your neighbours.
05:03You need to call...
05:11Call 101 if you have a complaint.
05:18Cheers.
05:19I'd say the same, but...
05:30Banging from down there, was there?
05:31Yeah.
05:32OK.
05:34Door kept on banging that lot.
05:38Have you heard anything?
05:41Oh, do you?
05:43Right.
05:44Yeah, no bother.
05:47Yeah.
05:50Yeah.
05:52OK.
06:02Yeah.
06:11KNOCK AT DOOR
06:17KNOCK AT DOOR
06:22KNOCK AT DOOR
06:25Hello.
06:26Come back in.
06:27Why?
06:28Just for a few minutes, just need to talk to you.
06:29What for?
06:35What now?
06:36Huh?
06:37What now?
06:40What now?
06:43Hey, Doug.
06:44Huh?
06:46Why?
06:47You're not arresting him.
06:48Huh?
06:49You're not arresting him.
06:51You're not arresting him.
06:52Why?
06:53What have I done now?
06:54You're not arresting him, are you?
06:56I'm not staying here on my own tonight before bail.
06:59I'll explain to you in a second.
07:00You're not arresting him.
07:01OK, you're under arrest.
07:02What?
07:03No!
07:04That makes sense.
07:07The rest of you might have come on yourself.
07:09He hasn't done anything.
07:10Just listen, just listen.
07:11What?
07:12Oh, my...
07:13Do not say anything to the man on the fence.
07:15Do not mention when questioned.
07:16Is this a joke?
07:18You're not taking him anywhere.
07:20He says if you arrest him...
07:21What's your name, then?
07:22What am I?
07:23Come and have a look at me out here.
07:25Excuse me.
07:26Look, this is my man.
07:27I haven't done nothing.
07:28No, you're not taking him anywhere until...
07:30No!
07:31You're not taking him...
07:32No!
07:34We've got no proof.
07:35No!
07:36What's going on?
07:37I haven't done my role.
07:38No!
07:41I haven't done my role.
07:42I haven't got my marks on me arm.
07:45This is ridiculous.
07:47Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
07:49Yeah, mate.
07:51There's nothing on me.
07:52There's nothing on you.
07:53There's not a fucking mark on you.
07:54If anything, I've got marks on me, mate.
07:56Not from me.
08:00Did you just find an arresting note?
08:04Nothing on me, mate.
08:05There are marks on you.
08:06Let's have a check.
08:07Oh, yeah, yeah.
08:09Fucking...
08:11This is fucking ridiculous.
08:13Right, calm down.
08:14Calm down.
08:15This is fucking ridiculous.
08:16Calm down.
08:17Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
08:18I'm not going to help.
08:19I'm not going to help.
08:20Calm down.
08:21Calm down.
08:22Calm fucking down.
08:23What are you doing?
08:38Things have changed.
08:39Yeah.
08:40Kay Mitchell was supposed to be answering bail to you today
08:43at 12, along with Lucy Smith.
08:45He'll not be able to attend as he was charged with
08:47common assault on Lucy tonight and has been refused bail.
08:49He'll be going to Huntington Magistrate Court later.
08:52You're joking.
08:53I knew this would happen.
08:55What the fuck?
08:56On her?
08:57Yes.
08:58Hang on.
08:59Hang on.
09:00So Lucy's assaulted her, is he?
09:03Well, you knew that was coming, didn't you?
09:05Kay's assaulted Lucy.
09:06Do you know what we were saying?
09:07I knew today wasn't going to be that smooth.
09:10Right, I found the common assault.
09:12Let's have a read.
09:13Lucy entered the kitchen where the suspect was.
09:15The suspect lunged towards her and grabbed her by the throat,
09:18strangling her.
09:19While Cain was strangling her, he was shouting at her.
09:22Cain then left the flat building and returned approximately
09:26five minutes later where the pair continue to argue.
09:30Victim not engaging.
09:31Suspect arrested.
09:32Victim not engaging.
09:33She's obviously seen that through a window then.
09:35Victim displayed traits of repeat DV victims.
09:41Lucy, we have good, strong evidence to show that she's a victim
09:46of abuse from Cain, but she's not taking any of the opportunities
09:50to acknowledge that she's a victim of abuse.
09:54It would be quite unusual for us to say,
09:56you are a victim, we know that you are a victim.
09:59We can suggest that, but if somebody's in denial,
10:02they won't see it, they won't accept that.
10:06We're obviously aware of what happened yesterday.
10:08We've come in this morning and found out.
10:10Are you all right?
10:12Yeah?
10:13I don't know what's happening with Cain.
10:16We'll have to just find out, but I don't know what's going to happen at court.
10:22She's been charged with a common assault.
10:28Yeah, I don't know anything about it.
10:30Yeah, well, basically, there's two options.
10:32If he goes to court today, then there's two options.
10:34One, they'll keep him, or two, they'll let him go.
10:39And if they let him go, then he still needs to come down to Parkside
10:42and answer his bail.
10:44All right, no worries, see you in a bit.
10:46Bye.
10:49That was good.
10:50That's interesting.
10:51Yeah.
10:52He's been charged, he didn't do anything.
10:54Yeah, he didn't do anything.
10:55I'm fine, no problem.
10:56No.
10:57She's not coming over from that point of view.
10:59No.
11:00Yesterday hasn't changed anything.
11:02No.
11:27No.
11:34Throughout the investigation, I've ruled out accidental cause.
11:39I've ruled out, as best as I can, any medical cause.
11:45He didn't have an illness that would have caused those injuries.
11:49And the evidence of significant friends,
11:52the phone evidence showed that Lucy and Cain
11:55were the only people who had care of Teddy
11:58through the material timeframes.
12:00Couldn't have been anybody else.
12:03And that's why this job is so difficult,
12:05because you have Teddy's two primary caregivers,
12:08either of whom are culpable.
12:12Cain Mitchell has an appropriate adult
12:14who will be present throughout his interview
12:16to ensure he understands the questions asked.
12:19Is everyone ready for me to start?
12:21Yeah.
12:30OK, this interview is being electronically recorded onto DVD,
12:33both audio and video.
12:35So, I must remind you, you are still under caution.
12:38That is, you do not have to say anything,
12:40but it may harm your defence if you do not mention
12:42when questioned something which you later rely on in court.
12:45Anything you do so may be given in evidence.
12:47Prior to the interview, we did give some pre-interview briefings
12:50and that is, since the start of the investigation,
12:53a significant amount of enquiries have been conducted
12:56in an effort to establish how Teddy not only died
12:59as a result of a head injury,
13:01but also how he came to have sustained so many other injuries.
13:04Witness statements have been taken from family members,
13:07relatives, neighbours of both of you
13:09in order to provide an insight into the relationship and lifestyle.
13:12Information has been gathered as a result of speaking to witnesses
13:15suggests that the relationship between you and Lucy
13:18is not as consistent to how you both have portrayed it
13:22during your interviews.
13:24It is alleged that you have been involved
13:27in a number of incidents of domestic violence
13:29which have not only been witnessed,
13:31but have come to the attention of the police.
13:33So, you know, in your interviews,
13:35you said that your relationship was solid,
13:37the best you've ever been in.
13:39Yeah, I love her more than any other woman I've ever been with.
13:42But we are verbal. We are verbal.
13:44Very verbal. Clearly, the neighbours have all told you.
13:47Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
13:49You've said that it's more raised voices.
13:51Yeah, I'll say, oh, fuck off, and then I'll go out the door,
13:54but I'll go in a fucking pub, fuck this, you know what I mean?
13:57And she'll be like, no, don't you fucking dare,
13:59shouting out the window, you come back here or we're over.
14:02Yeah, that sort of thing.
14:04It's very verbal, should I say.
14:06All right. You know what I mean?
14:08But I'll go and have a pint, I'll come back,
14:10and she'll be like, love you, we love you, bang, end of.
14:13I don't like having a row or an argument
14:16and then sitting down and being like, right, so what about this?
14:19Yeah, and you've done this and you've done that.
14:21I need five minutes or ten minutes.
14:23What, calm down? Calm down.
14:25Not necessarily calm down, just to reflect and, do you know what I mean,
14:29just to get out and diffuse the situation
14:31so it doesn't escalate from her point of view or mine.
14:34Know what I mean? And by that I mean by her over-lunging for me,
14:37do you know what I mean, and me having to lunge back or something.
14:40I just diffuse it there and then,
14:42which means taking me out of the equation.
14:44The reason we're going over this, Cain, about the relationship is,
14:48it is slightly worse than you've portrayed.
14:51There is a lot more aggression,
14:54and other people are saying violence, now you're saying there's not much,
14:58but, I mean, you have... Both parts, yeah.
15:00..conceded a bit of pushing on both parts.
15:04This is not an environment for children to be growing up in,
15:08especially if you're flipping just like that.
15:10That's your opinion, and I don't just flip like that, either.
15:14That's your personal opinion. I don't flip like that at all.
15:17Them kids never wanted for nothing, do you know what I mean?
15:22It is a violent, volatile relationship.
15:24It was more serious than you're making it up.
15:26I'm saying... No, sorry to cut you off.
15:28And something... There's been an argument and something's triggered
15:32and either you or Lucy have flipped,
15:34and that is what has led to Teddy's head injury.
15:37How dare you? No.
15:41OK, we've got to ask these questions,
15:43because we've got to understand what was going on on this day.
15:46No way.
15:48Nor is it now.
15:50No.
16:08As you're aware, OK, we've got your phone.
16:10And we've been through that. Mm-hm.
16:12And we're a bit confused as to when your relationship with Lucy started.
16:17Oh, yeah. OK?
16:19Officially or unofficially?
16:21We wouldn't text each other because she was seeing Liam
16:23and I was seeing Michelle.
16:25The messages on your phone... Mm.
16:28..start in March between you and Lucy. Yeah.
16:31Yeah? Yeah. But we were meeting up in Cahoots, specifically.
16:34OK. Yeah. Right, OK. Yeah.
16:37The tone of the messages starts to gradually change,
16:39with both of you becoming very jealous of each other,
16:42questioning who you both were with.
16:45She had insecurities and would be like,
16:47Oh, I bet you don't want me.
16:48I bet you're going to see someone else.
16:50But I think a lot of that was the basis how we started on.
16:52We started sneakily.
16:54I mean, your messages, they go from being loving to nasty
16:57to loving to nasty.
16:59And then on one occasion, Lucy's gone to the park
17:02with one of the children's friends and his dad,
17:04and the messages from you get worse and worse.
17:08Yeah, I know. You are demanding to know,
17:10and why are you there, huh, chatting away to the other kid's dad?
17:13Are you a cunt?
17:15Mm-hm. Yeah, or according to Lucy, yeah.
17:17Yeah, at least it's told you his name.
17:19Even though their kids are friends.
17:21Why should she be down in the park?
17:23And, I mean, you're that angry, you say,
17:25Fucking off out, you dirty tramp.
17:27Leaving Teddy here. Don't give a fuck.
17:29Answer me. You don't understand.
17:31That was that. Yeah, that was that.
17:33I think I... Oh, yeah, I was with...
17:35Oh, that just made sense. The last question.
17:37I threatened to leave Teddy there
17:39so she'd come back and she'd come straight back.
17:42OK.
17:43I would have never left him on his own,
17:45but I went, all right, then I'll leave Teddy here, shall I?
17:48And bang, she was back in five minutes.
17:50Four or five minutes.
17:51Answer me. You don't understand, you spastic.
17:53I've swore on my mother's ashes
17:55that unless you tell me Ross's second name
17:57before you're home, I'm beating you, you simple.
18:00Unless you tell me, I promise you,
18:03I'm going to have to take you in the bedroom and do you in.
18:06Please listen to me. I'm actually going to have to do it.
18:09I'm going to... If you don't tell me his name.
18:11So you're... Unless she tells you his name...
18:16..you're going to beat her up and you're blaming her for that reason.
18:19Did you beat her up? No, I never beat her up.
18:21And it was just a threat. Yes, it was threatening.
18:24It was a threat, but she told me his surname straight away.
18:27Never, ever touched her.
18:29I said, I'll leave Teddy here, if you like.
18:31If you don't come back, she'll come straight back.
18:34It was all just to coax her back into our territory.
18:37You knew it'd work. I knew it'd work.
18:39And you can understand why that has raised our concern...
18:42It has, yes.
18:43..because it is a violent, volatile relationship on the face of it...
18:47Yeah. ..where children are present,
18:50where a child has sadly suffered fatal head injury
18:56and has been amongst this type of relationship.
18:59So can you understand why it's caused us some concern?
19:02Yes. Yeah?
19:04And Teddy was ever caught in the crossfire of any of these arguments.
19:08No.
19:09Which has led to, sadly, his head injury.
19:13No way. No way. OK. All right.
19:16The last bit we want to talk to you about, OK...
19:21Yes. ..is about who Teddy's biological father is.
19:27Mm-hm. OK?
19:29You've stated, Lucy's stated, that you are Teddy's biological father.
19:33Yes, always told me where I am,
19:36but the dates that we worked out that she gave me,
19:38she told me that I was, and I believe I am...
19:41OK. ..his father.
19:43I mean, we've got statements from people.
19:46Some of them, you know, they are hearsay.
19:49We appreciate that.
19:53We have had some DNA profiling back, OK?
19:56Yes. OK.
19:58And the profiling has come back that you are not Teddy's father.
20:05Do you need a break, then?
20:07Just some time. It's all right.
20:09We are sorry to have to say this.
20:22Can you have a right to know?
20:26Can we talk about it? Of course.
20:35Do you want to...?
20:39OK, we'll complete the interview.
20:41It's 14.40.
20:46DOORBELL RINGS
20:48I'm so sick!
20:50We're going to get you out. We're going to get you out.
20:52OK.
20:54It's a start on.
21:04MUSIC PLAYS
21:06MUSIC CONTINUES
21:31I think denial has got an answer for everything, really.
21:35Any emotion from him when you put...?
21:38Oh, loads. Oh, my God.
21:40He went through boxes of tissues, boxes of tissues.
21:43When he found out about the DNA profiling,
21:46we had to stop the interview at that point, completely stop it.
21:50You had to be very careful how you interviewed him
21:53because he was on a knife-edge job... Yeah.
21:56..of just exploding.
21:59So we've got to keep moving forward.
22:02I'm really comfortable that the job's going in the right direction.
22:05What we need to do is put pressure on the experts
22:08because what I'm worried about is...
22:11Lucy's still completely entrenched with Cain.
22:16She cannot see that he causes her any trouble at all,
22:21causes her any threat.
22:23The next bit, then, is obviously the re-interviews of Lucy
22:26because we've only done that first stage with her,
22:29so it's all been softly, softly.
22:37I mean, she's had so many opportunities now
22:40that I wonder how, you know, there has to come to a point
22:43where we have given her all of the opportunities
22:46and that actually we then...
22:48Because we've given her all of those opportunities
22:50in order to explain her true situation,
22:52does she then become culpable?
22:54And it's that real fine balance.
22:58I need to give her an opportunity to disclose
23:02that she is a victim of domestic abuse in interview.
23:06If she does disclose that,
23:09it gives me an opportunity to consider her,
23:12is she actually a witness in this case rather than a suspect?
23:16Because, actually, are her actions as a consequence
23:19of being as much a victim of Cain as Teddy, actually?
23:25But if she chooses not to make those disclosures,
23:30if she chooses not to accept
23:32that she's a victim of domestic abuse,
23:34then my options are very limited around that
23:37because her explanation is that she isn't a victim.
23:41She doesn't know how Teddy got his injuries.
23:44Cain didn't cause the injuries.
23:47It just doesn't stand up to any analysis,
23:52so I have to continue down the route
23:54that she is my prime suspect, along with Cain.
24:13OK, so I must remind you that you are still under caution
24:16and that is you do not have to say anything,
24:18but it may harm your defence
24:20if you do not mention when questioned something
24:22which you relate or rely on in court.
24:24Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
24:27OK, now, as you're aware, there has been a post-mortem.
24:34The post-mortem said that the provisional cause of death
24:37was the head injury,
24:39but the additional comments as part of this
24:41is that on the basis of the naked eye examination,
24:44there is no evidence of any natural disease
24:47or contributed to the death.
24:50The presence of a skull fracture
24:52and a brain injury diagnosed in life,
24:55together with the finding of retinal hemorrhages,
24:58so hemorrhages behind the eyes,
25:00is evidence of a head injury of either a shaking or impact type,
25:05OK, so that it's inflicted.
25:07There's also evidence of rib fractures,
25:10potentially of different ages,
25:12and evidence of lumbar spinal fractures and pubic fracturing,
25:16and these would be consistent with compression or an impact,
25:19so, again, inflicted.
25:21Is there anything you want to say in relation to that post-mortem result?
25:26Have you got any explanation as to how Teddy sustained any of those injuries?
25:30Whether it be an accident, whether it's on your part?
25:34No idea. No idea.
25:38Or whether you're coverings for somebody else?
25:41No.
25:42Is there anyone that you're scared of
25:44and the reason, because you're scared, you are covering for them?
25:48No.
25:50OK.
25:51There's nothing at all?
25:52If there was, I would say, cos that's my son at the end of the day,
25:55and he means more to me than anybody.
25:57The next bit we're going to look at is your relationship.
26:00OK, so in your interviews,
26:02you said that your relationship with Cain was good.
26:05There are the usual ups and downs.
26:07You don't really argue.
26:10We have looked at your phones.
26:12The messages on the phones do not reflect that relationship at all
26:18and what other people are saying.
26:20Now, the first few months or a month or so,
26:24it did seem like the honeymoon period.
26:27It's not long before these messages start turning nasty.
26:32Every couple of hours.
26:34They're more than just a row.
26:36They are pretty horrific towards each other.
26:39OK.
26:40I'm going to go through some of the statements that we've gathered.
26:44Mm-hm.
26:45Again, these are people that are saying that your relationship was volatile,
26:49that they heard lots of arguments,
26:51that they've had to call the police and social services.
26:54Again, this is at odds to the way you've described your relationship.
26:58Obviously, when we argue, we argue quite badly.
27:03Yeah. OK.
27:05So the first is from your neighbour.
27:07She heard lots of arguments.
27:09As a result, she called the police and social services
27:12because she was concerned about your welfare and the children's welfare.
27:16She could hear you screaming and one of your daughters crying.
27:20She's asked, did he hurt you?
27:22You said, no, hun, just pushed me out of the way.
27:25Yeah, probably cos he wanted to get out the door,
27:27whereas I wanted to sit there and talk it out
27:29and he'd want to go out and call off, probably.
27:32And when you say pushed you out of the way...
27:34Just, like, pushed me cos I was standing there saying,
27:37stand here and talk to me about it or whatever.
27:39Don't even know that it was over. OK.
27:41Again, your neighbour, he described your relationship as being volatile,
27:46that the arguments sounded like blue murder.
27:49He said that you were always hysterical when screaming and crying.
27:53It sounded like someone being murdered
27:55by the way they scream and shout at each other.
27:57He said he could hear scuffling and banging from the flat,
28:00like things were being thrown.
28:02He felt that the male where he came was drunk when this was happening,
28:06as his speech was slurred.
28:08That's a lie. OK.
28:10Painting me out to be an absolute arsehole.
28:14You then got a statement from your dad
28:16and he said that whilst you were staying,
28:18he did get the impression that things weren't quite right.
28:22He said that Cain was quite controlling.
28:25Again, you've just laughed.
28:27Is that not a good... Is that not right in relation to him?
28:30Controlling. No?
28:32You wouldn't describe Cain at all being controlling your relationship?
28:35Were there any incidents then while you were down,
28:37staying with your dad?
28:39No, he threw a bowl of chips at me in Wellington Pier
28:42and then he walked out and then I walked out after him, crying.
28:45Being dramatic. OK.
28:48Do you have anything you want to add in relation to that?
28:50Well, where do I start?
28:53We've got numerous witnesses now...
28:57..who've come forward,
29:00put pen to paper, signed statements,
29:03showing full well that if they lie,
29:05and prove that they've lied,
29:07they can be in trouble.
29:12Even your own father states that you've told him that Cain's hit you.
29:17We've got people who have seen injuries on you,
29:20stating they've seen injuries on you.
29:22We've got people stating they've seen Cain grab you around the neck.
29:28And each time these have been put to you, Lucy,
29:31you deny it and you're portraying Cain to be...
29:34He grabs me around the neck. Yes, he's an arsehole, I know that.
29:37But he has never grabbed me around the neck.
29:43We've had a few little slaps here and there,
29:46but he's never done anything like that.
29:50And I know he's been violent in the past as well.
29:54These people are telling us that there were more arguments,
29:58there was more violence.
30:01You've even just added in just there,
30:04yes, he is an arsehole, and a few slaps.
30:07Where have these few slaps come from, Lucy?
30:09Because I just don't really see why it matters.
30:12It does matter. And we're trying to explain...
30:14But just because he's going to do something like that
30:16doesn't mean he's going to do anything to Teddy.
30:18We appreciate that.
30:19But you've got to be honest with us about what sort of person Cain is.
30:26Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah.
30:29All I ask is you to be up front with us
30:32about your relationship with Cain.
30:35And I'm going to ask you a straight question, look at me,
30:37straight in the eye. Mm-hm.
30:39Cain has assaulted you on a number of occasions.
30:42What do you think happened?
30:56Cain can be violent, can't he?
30:58Yeah, and I know that because I've seen all of his past history.
31:01Yeah, but he's been violent to you.
31:04And he can lose it, can't he?
31:07With me, maybe, or an adult, but he wouldn't do it to a child.
31:11He's got a temper. A bit of a temper.
31:14But it doesn't mean he'd do anything to my children.
31:16Well, somebody did.
31:19Well, I know it wasn't me, then.
31:21I know he wouldn't do that. He loved that baby.
31:24He honestly loved that baby.
31:28Why have you not told us about this before, Lucy?
31:31Just don't... I don't know. Don't see why it matters.
31:35Like you say, it does, honestly.
31:37Can you see why it does, though? Yeah.
31:41And that then opens up the questions to us.
31:43Was Teddy caught in any crossfire?
31:45No, never. 100% he wasn't.
31:48Was Teddy the...? I've put my life on that, that he wasn't.
31:51At all? Never.
31:53But we've got police reports that show that the police
31:56have been called out, it's that bad,
31:58and the children have been there.
32:00Never. He's never hit anyone, the kids.
32:03And where have they been when...?
32:05Probably in the room playing or in the living room.
32:07But they're in the house.
32:08Whether it be in the kitchen or... You don't know.
32:11So they could walk in at any point?
32:13They could see the results?
32:15They could see if he'd had injuries or anything?
32:17Yeah, but they've never seen anything like that.
32:20OK.
32:22Is there one thing, in relation to Teddy, where Kate Kane's concerned,
32:27that causes him any resentment?
32:30Towards that baby?
32:34Other than the small percentage of him not being a dad,
32:37but I doubt he'd...
32:39Small percentage? Small percentage.
32:41OK. We have done DNA profiling.
32:44Really? Yeah.
32:46We've had to, and it's important.
32:48Why have you had to, though?
32:49Because we need to see if there's any brittle bones in the family.
32:52Yeah. Anything like that.
32:54Yeah. Yeah?
32:56That's why it's important to us,
32:58and we have done the DNA profiling,
33:01and it has come back, and that Kane isn't Teddy's...
33:05Are you joking? ..father.
33:21That's going to be the end of the interview.
33:28BEEP
33:33Both suspects are given bail,
33:35while detectives wait for reports on the medical evidence to be completed.
33:41Bail conditions are that they have no further contact with each other,
33:45and Kane Mitchell must wear an electronic tag to monitor his movements.
33:50She's got over the first bit of telling us there was domestic abuse,
33:55and more than she's letting on.
33:57She just can't... And you could see that you could,
34:01but she just can't get over...
34:03I know it doesn't look good. Yeah.
34:05I know it doesn't look good. She's said that several times.
34:07But why would he?
34:09She's been given every opportunity to tell us what a horrible bloke he is,
34:13that, you know, she was in fear of him,
34:15all of that stuff.
34:16She hasn't taken that opportunity.
34:19We're going to have to develop our file
34:23and present it to the Crown Prosecution Service
34:25that she's guilty of the Section 5 offence and he for murder.
34:33With a Section 5 offence,
34:34it's causing or allowing the death or serious injury to a child,
34:38and you don't have to prove that you've done it.
34:43And you don't have to prove that they killed the child,
34:46that they physically injured the child.
34:49It's just that they were aware
34:51that the child was likely to be injured or harmed
34:54because of the circumstances of that relationship
34:57and within the make-up of that household.
35:04I have to go with where the evidence takes me,
35:07and the evidence takes me to the fact that she's highly likely
35:11to have been a victim of controlling and coercive behaviour
35:16and domestic abuse,
35:18but I can't force her to acknowledge that.
35:20And I'm still left with the fact that her son
35:25has a large number of severe fractures
35:29and a catastrophic head injury,
35:31and she has no reasonable explanation for that.
35:35Police interview one of Lucy Smith's older children,
35:38who lived with her and Cain Mitchell.
35:44Ugly Cain.
35:46Ugly Cain?
35:48I call him ugly because he hits me, he punches me in the arm.
35:56OK, and you said he threw you in your room.
35:58And how did he throw you in your room?
36:01He basically got hold of my leg and dragged me in there.
36:06And my head was on the floor.
36:08He was holding my thumb and really...
36:11and clenching it really hard.
36:15And also, Cain punched Mummy's mirror
36:18and then his hand was bleeding.
36:20So Mummy ran into our room and shut the door so he couldn't hurt us.
36:25What was he doing that was threatening you?
36:29He was trying to punch us.
36:31How did all that make you feel?
36:33Sad, cos the glass was on the floor and Mummy stepped on it.
36:38OK.
36:58SIREN BLARES
37:00SIREN BLARES
37:25Apparently there's been mucking around here.
37:27It's allegedly said...
37:29It's had ideations of committing suicide.
37:31That's Cain's brother. Cain has a tag on.
37:36Van driver.
37:38There's quite a serious clump to the side of the van.
37:44It's quite... I mean, I know it's a glance down,
37:47but that wing mirror's going to have caused...
37:49Yeah.
37:51That would have killed me, but...
37:57Ambulance are still working with this gentleman,
37:59so we are still waiting for further update,
38:01but I suspect he's going to have some reasonable injuries off the back of this.
38:08They are inspecting roadside as we speak.
38:11Life-threatening, life-threatening.
38:13We'll let you know.
38:24The pedestrian suffered serious injuries
38:26in a crash on the A10 in Hertfordshire last night.
38:29The man was in collision with a white van just before 8.30
38:32on the Southbound carriageway between Hertford and Ware.
38:35Police are appealing for witnesses.
38:39So, Cain Mitchell tried to kill himself last night...
38:42..by throwing himself in front of a van on the A10
38:47that was travelling at 70 miles an hour.
38:49And God knows how, but he's actually survived.
38:53So...
38:55He's got fractured pelvis...
38:59..fractured elbow, fractured ribs and a head injury.
39:03And the last report I had was that he was sitting up in bed.
39:07I mean, the main point is that he made a concerted effort
39:11to kill himself. This wasn't a call for help.
39:14Half-hearted.
39:16What we need to do today is just make sure
39:18that we've got all of our plans in the right place.
39:21OK.
39:22And what I don't want to happen is that justice isn't done.
39:32You'll never guess what.
39:35Yes? Mm-hm.
39:37I wasn't expecting it at all.
39:39So, Sara's phoned me.
39:41Given what he's done, they have changed their mind
39:45and they will charge on a threshold.
39:47Oh, my goodness.
39:48And they'll charge him with murder and her with Section 5.
39:53Yeah, absolutely. I'm absolutely gobsmacked.
39:56So... I'm so pleased.
39:58Whoa. Yeah.
40:00Cos all I want is for it to be heard properly in court.
40:06That's all I want.
40:08And then the court can make their mind up.
40:28Apparently he's going to kick off. Huh?
40:30Apparently he'll kick off as soon as he sees police.
40:32Oh, really? Why?
40:34Has he indicated that to staff? Yeah.
40:36Oh, great. Oh, great.
40:56OK, can you come and sit down?
40:58OK, can you come and sit down?
41:09We're obviously aware of your condition, all right?
41:12What's happened to you? Has he got a bedside?
41:17I hope you're not putting the mother of my son through this.
41:22Oh! What a steady on, lads.
41:26Oh, we're here. Perfectly arrested. Lucy Smith.
41:34Hiya. Is that Lucy? Yeah.
41:36Hi, Lucy. I'm Sergeant Mark Devine.
41:38We need to come to the police station this evening.
41:40We need to have a word with you.
41:42Well, we'll explain that to you when we get there.
41:44I'm waiting for my sister. I ain't going anywhere till she's here.
41:47Till she's here? No, till she's here, yeah.
41:49What do you mean? She's coming here? Yeah.
41:51Right, OK. Well, if that's the case,
41:53then I'll have to arrest you and take you to the police station.
41:59Hey, guys.
42:01I'll meet that mother up there. Yeah?
42:07Is that Teddy?
42:09He's about Teddy, yeah.
42:15I can't get in the back of the bloody van on a metal box.
42:18That's why I'm just asking you.
42:20I'm trying to do it best for you.
42:22I'm going to have to sit in a comfy chair.
42:24Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm asking you, van or car?
42:27Probably preferably a car.
42:29Right, OK. Well, car, then. It can be. No problem.
42:32It'll be easier to sit in.
42:34I have encountered lots of people like Cain before
42:36throughout my career and personal life.
42:38When I first met him at Hinchinbrook Hospital on the first night,
42:42he presented as you would expect a grieving father.
42:45And he was perfectly pleasant to the investigation team.
42:49He has changed and shown the ability to change that persona at will,
42:53depending on the circumstances that he's in.
42:56And he has become more self-centred and self-serving
43:01as the investigation has progressed.
43:04Right.
43:06That one in my crutch, please.
43:08I can't walk without it. Yeah, we'll give you a crutch.
43:10That's the law, I'm afraid.
43:14That should also be assisted up, but you're not qualified, are you?
43:19I must have missed that course, but I'll help you any way that I can.
43:22Technically, no. Actually, I know my rights.
43:25I want a qualified person to help me.
43:27And I know my rights and my law and my legislation.
43:30You're walking a very short distance to the car here,
43:33which we're accommodating you with a seat as far forward as we can, all right?
43:37OK, I understand everything. Take your time, by all means.
43:40He isn't completely devoid of any remorse
43:44or real empathy for Teddy.
43:49And that's the thing that I find really, really hard,
43:52is it's all about Cain and not about what Teddy's been through.
44:07Hello, you all right? I'm the custody sergeant, so I'm going to book you in.
44:11OK, so I'm going to authorise your detention here at the police station
44:14so that we can charge. OK, Lucy.
44:16But, of course, you do have to say a thing or two that may harm your defence,
44:19and without mention now, something which is out of line, of course.
44:26Two hours late on my tablet, whipped straight out the hospital.
44:29No physio notes, apparently.
44:32Let me see.
44:34No physio notes in my property.
44:37OK, there's one charge which I need to inform you of.
44:40I know what it is. I've already been informed, thank you.
44:42Well, I'm going to tell you anyway. Well, you can do, but...
44:44And that's between the 1st of November 2019...
44:47Yeah, apparently me or Lucy killed our son.
44:51When I get a verdict, if it's a guilty verdict,
44:54particularly in a case like this, I am always...
44:57I always have very, very mixed feelings.
45:00There is a sense of satisfaction for my team
45:04and for the hard work that they've done
45:07and that we have found out what happened for the child.
45:14But it's always tinged with great sadness
45:16because it will never bring the child back.
45:19And that always feels really hard.
45:43He'd walk in the room and just look at him.
45:45He'd always be smiling.
45:47Just a massive, massive beaming smile on his face.
45:52So cute.
45:54Literally the cutest.
45:57All I've got is that picture of him in my head.
46:00He's in the bath and he's just got a massive, massive grin on his face.
46:04Literally the cutest smile I've ever seen.
46:07All I've got is that picture of him in my head.
46:09He's in the bath and he's just got a massive, massive grin on his face.
46:13Literally ear to ear.
46:15It's amazing.
46:38Support information for the issues raised
46:41can be found online at channel4.com.
46:44Now, Channel 4 this Sunday, how a 19-year-old from Chester
46:48made international headlines a quarter of a century on from her acquittal.
46:52The killer nanny, did she do it? starts at nine.
47:07.