• 3 months ago
In a recent piece for The Atlantic — “Hillbilly Women Will Get No Help from J.D. Vance” — Cassie Chambers Armstrong makes the point that, despite the Republican vice-presidential candidate’s claim on his family’s Appalachian values, his stated positions show a failure to recognize women’s reality. Senator Armstrong joins the show to discuss ways in which rural women could be better supported.

NOTE: Due to a copyright claim for some scenes, watch it on Dailymotion on the link: https://dai.ly/x94q088.

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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Foreign Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:10I can say that the state of Israel will not let this pass in silence.
00:14We will not overlook this.
00:16A vow of retaliation after a rocket attack killed 12 children in the Israeli-occupied
00:21Golan Heights.
00:23Israel blames Hezbollah and Lebanon braces.
00:26Is the region on the brink?
00:28I'll ask Israel's former Prime Minister, Naftali Bennett.
00:32Then...
00:33We have serious concerns that the result announced does not reflect the will or the votes of
00:39the Venezuelan people.
00:40Nicolas Maduro is claiming victory in Venezuela's presidential vote.
00:45In a highly disputed election, what now for the struggling nation?
00:49Plus, Iowa's six-week abortion ban takes effect today.
00:53We'll look at the implications with abortion law expert, Mary Ziegler.
00:57And...
00:58The J.D. Vance has suggested that women should remain in abusive marriages.
01:02Kentucky State Senator Cassie Chambers Armstrong tells Michelle Martin why she believes hillbilly
01:08women will get no help from J.D. Vance.
01:29Amanpour & Co. is made possible by Jim Atwood and Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, the
01:37Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poita Programming Endowment to Fight Antisemitism, the Family Foundation
01:44of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark J. Bleschner, the Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton
01:51J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Gantz CUNY Fund, Charles Rosenblum, Ku and
01:59Patricia Ewen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara Hope
02:05Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz, and Beth Rogers, and by contributions to your PBS station from
02:11viewers like you.
02:14Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:16I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
02:20Well, it's been over nine months since the horrors of October 7th.
02:24Nine months of war in Gaza.
02:26Nine months of pain for thousands of families.
02:29And now, more than ever, it's clear that children are paying the highest price.
02:33In the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, 12 children were killed Saturday in a rocket
02:36attack that hit a soccer field where they were playing.
02:40And at the same time in Gaza, children were killed in Israeli attacks that left at least
02:4419 people dead.
02:46Israel has blamed Hezbollah for the rocket attack in the Golan Heights and has vowed
02:49that the militant group will pay a price.
02:52Hezbollah has firmly denied that it was behind the strike.
02:55The rocket hit the village of Majdal Shams, with Prime Minister Netanyahu visiting the
03:00site this afternoon.
03:01He was met with jeers amid protesters there and protests from residents.
03:06One sign reads, down to those who are killing kids.
03:10With fears of a full-blown war in the region once again at dangerous levels, foreign leaders
03:14are scrambling to de-escalate tensions.
03:17Several European countries have called for their citizens to urgently leave Lebanon.
03:22And that's where we find our correspondent, Ben Wiedemann, who is joining us from Beirut
03:26now.
03:27So, Ben, just to recap, 12 children killed in the attack, 44 injured, after approximately
03:3230 projectiles crossed into the Golan Heights.
03:36As we noted, Hezbollah has denied the attack.
03:38Israel says it is Hezbollah, has even identified the rocket made by Iran and publicized the
03:43name of the local Hezbollah commander responsible for the strike.
03:47U.S. Secretary of State said there's every indication the rocket was from Hezbollah.
03:51A lot has happened over the last 24 hours.
03:55Walk us through where things stand right now.
03:58BEN WIEDEMANN, U.S. Secretary of State for International Affairs and Foreign Affairs
04:00Well, right now, really, the region is on the brink, the brink of perhaps a regional
04:05war, if things get out of control.
04:08Now, Prime Minister Netanyahu has said that Israel's response will be, in his words, severe.
04:15Hezbollah has said that it will meet escalation with escalation.
04:19Now, the hope is that Israel's response will be limited, limited to targets related to
04:28Hezbollah.
04:29The worry is that, of course, if it goes beyond that, you could get all sorts of other players
04:35involved.
04:36The Iranians have made it clear that they will stand behind Lebanon, behind Hezbollah
04:42if there is a major Israeli attack.
04:45And the worry is that other allies of Iran, other allies of Hezbollah in Syria, in Iraq,
04:53in Yemen will also join the fray, and, therefore, the situation is, at this point, very worrying.
05:00We know that, for instance, Germany and Italy have told their nationals to leave Lebanon
05:05as soon as possible.
05:07Other countries have reiterated longstanding advisories for people to leave.
05:13Also, the U.S. government, in the form of the U.S. assistant secretary of state for
05:19consular affairs, put out a message on X, or what was known as Twitter, telling Americans
05:27in Lebanon to leave before the crisis begins, are the words she used.
05:32And she said that those Americans who decide to stay in Lebanon, regardless of the situation,
05:38they should be prepared to shelter in place for a very long time.
05:43Other airlines, for instance, Air France and Lufthansa, have suspended flights for the
05:49time being.
05:50Other airlines as well, no longer flying to Lebanon.
05:53So the situation, certainly, we are really on the brink of what could be something very,
05:59very serious.
06:00Liana?
06:01And the victims of this heinous attack, as we noted, are children.
06:04They're also Druze, which are part of a small but significant portion, not only Israel,
06:10but they have a community in Lebanon and Syria as well.
06:14You spoke with the Lebanese foreign minister about some of the implications and concerns
06:20following this attack.
06:21Tell us exactly what he said to you.
06:23Well, I spoke to him several times, actually.
06:28Today he told me that he had, through diplomatic contacts, Lebanon had been told that the Israeli
06:36response would be, in his words, limited, limited.
06:40Their interpretation of that is limited in terms of Hezbollah targets, that Beirut, the
06:46airport, will not be struck.
06:49But, beyond that, he was very concerned that Lebanon could be drawn into a war that has
06:58danger of going much more broad, basically becoming a regional war.
07:04This is what he said.
07:05I'm going to ask you the same question everybody here in Beirut asks me.
07:09Is there going to be war?
07:11We don't want war.
07:12We don't want what's going on now.
07:14We want peace, really.
07:15We really are people of peace, and we'd like to have a ceasefire as soon as possible.
07:20And we're waiting for Gaza to have a ceasefire in Gaza, and, therefore, automatically here.
07:27We don't think this is Hezbollah did it, but I don't know, because a war against Lebanon
07:33is a regional war.
07:35It's not going to be Hezbollah against Israel.
07:39And Hezbollah is not Hamas also.
07:41It's more than Hamas.
07:42And by that, of course, he means that Hezbollah possesses military capabilities far in excess
07:49of that of Hamas.
07:51What we have seen since October is that they have used weaponry that no one was even aware
07:59they had.
08:00They've been very skillful at knocking out Israeli surveillance equipment along the border.
08:07They have been able to shoot down state-of-the-art Israeli drones.
08:11We've seen, for instance, multiple times they've published drone videos shot by Hezbollah
08:18drones of very sensitive Israeli military and infrastructure positions.
08:25So they are in a position, should they become involved in a full-scale war with Israel,
08:33to inflict significant pain on Israel, at the same time that Israel, of course, will
08:38inflict significant pain on Lebanon.
08:41Liana?
08:42And we all remember that significant pain from both sides.
08:47In 2006, Hassan Nasrallah was said to have underestimated, perhaps, Israel's response
08:55then.
08:56And, of course, everyone's on pins and needles here, concerned that things could quickly
08:59escalate now.
09:01Ben Wiedemann in Beirut for us.
09:02Thank you so much.
09:04Well, Israeli leaders across the political spectrum are vowing to retaliate forcefully
09:08to this attack.
09:09So the question is, what will that look like?
09:12Let's bring in former prime minister and leader of right-wing party The New Right, Naftali
09:16Bennett.
09:17He joins us now from Israel.
09:18Mr. Prime Minister, thank you so much.
09:19I don't know if you were able to hear the comments made to Ben Wiedemann from the Lebanese
09:25foreign minister.
09:26If you were, I'm curious your response.
09:30Well, first, I'd like to point out two corrections.
09:34The first one is, it's not Israel that's claiming that Hezbollah shot this rocket and murdered
09:40the 12 children.
09:42That's a fact that's been confirmed also by the United States in an official memorandum,
09:48confirming that this is a Hezbollah rocket made in Iran, used by Hezbollah.
09:53And they, Hezbollah and Nasrallah, murdered the 12 boys and girls.
09:58And now, like any coward, he's trying to hide that and deny it, but that's a fact.
10:03Secondly, the Golan Heights is no longer an occupied territory.
10:08The United States of America recognized the Golan Heights as part and parcel of Israel.
10:13So it's an integral part of Israel.
10:16As to your question, what we've had here is a war that has no premise, no basis for it.
10:26This is not a two-sided war.
10:29Hezbollah began attacking Israel on October 8th, has shot hundreds of rockets on Israeli
10:36kibbutzim and towns, killed dozens of Israelis, and now, a couple of days ago, murdered 12
10:43children.
10:44So when one says the word escalation, we are already at full-blown escalation that has
10:52been produced by Lebanon.
10:56It is clear that such a severe attack cannot pass without a harsh response from the Israeli
11:01defense forces.
11:02But a senior Israeli defense official is quoted as saying Israel wants to hurt Hezbollah,
11:07but does not want to drag the region into an all-out war.
11:11In your view, what should that response then be, if the ultimate goal is reestablishing
11:16deterrence but not a full-scale regional conflict or war?
11:22Well, I beg to differ.
11:26I think we are already at a full-scale regional war.
11:30What do you call it when Houthis from Yemen shoot rockets and kill an Israeli in Tel Aviv?
11:36When Iranian proxies in Gaza, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, kill hundreds of Israelis?
11:42When Hezbollah is shooting hundreds of rockets?
11:45When Iraqi militias and when Iran itself shoots hundreds of missiles from Iran onto Israel?
11:51So we're already facing a regional war.
11:56The key is to identify the source of the enemy, and the source of the enemy is Iran.
12:02The Islamic Republic of Iran is at the basis of all of this.
12:07It's sort of like the head of the octopus.
12:09And I've been advocating for a few years that we ultimately need to topple this regime for
12:16our sake, for the sake of the region, for the sake of the Iranian people.
12:20I think now that's clear to everyone.
12:23They are at the basis of everything.
12:25Does that mean you're in favor of a full-scale war against not just Hezbollah?
12:30And when I say war, obviously I mean of the scale that we saw in 2006, not what we've
12:35been seeing in the north since October 8th.
12:39But you seem to be taking it one step further, saying Israel should go to war with Iran now.
12:46I'd say Israel is already at war with Iran.
12:49Iran has been shooting thousands of rockets through Gaza, through Lebanon, through Iraq,
12:55from Iran itself, from Yemen on Israel.
12:59But they are not paying any price.
13:02Now I'm not suggesting a specific action.
13:05I'm not going to delineate precisely what we need to do.
13:08We need to understand that the head of the octopus of terror in the whole region, most
13:13of the terror in the Middle East, its source is the Islamic Republic of Iran.
13:19Those mullahs who have a very clear ideology, it's an incompetent and corrupt regime.
13:26It will topple at some point, but I think America and Israel and the West need to accelerate
13:33that, especially economic sanctions, but not only.
13:37You said over the weekend on CNN, quote, what we saw happen on Saturday is the result of
13:42a feeble, weak policy of many words and speeches, but not enough action.
13:46The only way to stop this and deter enemies is to fight back.
13:49So in a sense, aside from Hezbollah, are you also pointing the finger of blame at the current
13:55Israeli government?
13:56Well, it's no secret.
13:59I think Israel has lost a lot of its deterrence due to poor leadership.
14:06I think that's clear to everyone.
14:08When something is not working well, you ultimately look for the leadership.
14:12We're going to have to fix that as well.
14:15But right now, we stand united on the goal of fighting and ultimately weakening and toppling
14:22the octopus of terror, the head of the octopus, which is Iran.
14:25This is not something that happens in hours or days, but it's something that needs to
14:29begin happening.
14:32But you acknowledge that it is something Israel can't do unilaterally.
14:37And I'm not saying American boots on the ground, but I mean without U.S. support, whether
14:42it's providing more ammunitions.
14:43And it comes at a time where, as you know, there has been conflict between the two countries
14:49in terms of the time frame that the United States has been providing certain weapons.
14:55Do you think the U.S. right now, as we're approaching an election, has an appetite for
15:00opening yet another front in the region right now?
15:04I think the way to prevent a full-blown war, let's call it a kinetic war, with Iran is
15:14precisely by using the softer measures of economic sanctions and diplomatic sanctions
15:20and other elements, and certainly not allowing billions of dollars to flow into this apparatus
15:26of terror.
15:28It's something that we're going to need to do, certainly with the current administration,
15:32whichever next president is elected in the United States.
15:36Because if we don't do it, the entire Middle East will go along the lines of radical Iran.
15:44And that ultimately will hit all of the world, including the United States.
15:48If you don't cut the terrorist's blood, you're going to meet it on the streets of New York
15:55and Washington.
15:56You know, I was living in New York during 9-11.
15:59I remember that very day.
16:00I remember tens of thousands of people running away from those towers.
16:05Because when you don't nip terror at its worst, it will come and haunt you.
16:11Mr. Prime Minister, with all eyes on the North now, there are a lot of concerns about what
16:16this means, the status of a hostage deal and a ceasefire.
16:21As of a few days ago, it appeared that one was perhaps imminent.
16:25Now there are real concerns about the likelihood there.
16:29And I've just been looking over the past few months.
16:31I don't know if you've ever publicly stated how you feel about this specific deal.
16:36Do you agree with it?
16:37Is it something that the prime minister should have signed off on long ago?
16:42Or do you support how many view his process of delaying it?
16:48No, I neither.
16:51What I believe is that we're not reaching a deal because the pressure on Hamas is not
16:56strong enough.
16:57The war is being prosecuted at a very low intensity, let's call it 5-10% intensity.
17:05And you don't win wars when you're fighting at 5-10% intensity.
17:10When you have, let's say, a boxing match and your rival just got hit in his head, you have
17:15to go box him and hit him until you get the knockout.
17:20But what we're doing is keep on turning it on and off, on and off.
17:24And that's not how you achieve victory.
17:25You have to have the systematic consistency.
17:29And that's why we're not getting a deal, because we're not applying pressure on Yigit
17:33Sinoir.
17:34But I do believe a good deal is attainable by applying that pressure.
17:39But this specific deal, or you think they should start from scratch?
17:42Because I know that you have spent a lot of time with hostage families.
17:47I would perhaps argue even more time than the current prime minister has.
17:50And you know how the majority of them feel, and that is that they want their loved ones
17:54home now.
17:56Do you think whatever plan you're proposing would bring them home any sooner than the
18:00one that's already on the table?
18:02Well, I think what I would do in this sort of situation is simplify things for the military
18:09and for the whole issue.
18:11I would say to Hamas, there's one deal.
18:14And the deal is that you raise a white flag, release all of the hostages and surrender.
18:19And in return, we won't kill you, but rather we'll put you on a boat and ship you out of
18:24here, like we did to the PLO in Beirut in 1982.
18:29That is what I would do.
18:30And then turn to the military, to the IDF, and say, you go ahead, don't stop until we
18:36achieve this.
18:37But you know what the IDF-
18:38When you're hovering between two-
18:40You know, finally, and we're just pressed for time, I'm just curious, because I haven't
18:43heard much from you on this specific angle.
18:45You know what the IDF and the military brass has been saying with regards to this deal,
18:50and that they think that Hamas has been weakened enough that a deal can be established, at
18:54least the first phase of it.
18:56And there's a real opportunity that the prime minister's not seizing on right now to bring
19:01home at least some of the hostages who are suffering, as you know.
19:07Look, I'm not going to criticize the prime minister or the military for any deal, because
19:14it's so sensitive, and there's so many dimensions in such a deal that it's not a smart thing
19:23to stand on the sidelines and give criticism.
19:27I'll back whatever the government does.
19:30All I'm saying is that we need to press much harder in order to achieve the deal that has
19:36been sort of running away from us for the past four months.
19:41Okay.
19:42Former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, thank you so much for the time.
19:46Hope you can come back and join us.
19:50Well, we turn to Venezuela now, where Nicolas Maduro has been declared winner of the country's
19:55presidential election by the government-controlled electoral authority.
19:59Rivals in several governments around the world immediately challenged the results.
20:04Maduro has led Venezuela into a crippling economic crisis and repressive state with
20:08no place for political opponents.
20:11Let's get straight into this.
20:12Alexandra Winkler served as deputy mayor of El Jatio, part of the capital of Caracas,
20:18and is now at the Center for Strategic International Studies.
20:21She joins us from Washington.
20:23Thank you, Alexandra, for joining us.
20:25I wish we could say that this was a shock in terms of the results from the government
20:32right now.
20:33And Maduro already claiming victory, saying, what a beautiful day we've lived.
20:37Thanks for giving me this victory that the people so deserve.
20:40It's a triumph of the ideals of equality.
20:42The only problem in that, of course, as we all know, is that the opposition was leading
20:46in all the polls that had been followed globally for 30 percent, if not more.
20:53What do you make of what we've seen and what happens now?
20:56Yes.
20:57The most important thing about yesterday is that Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia won by a landslide.
21:02And Maduro decided not to recognize his win, nor to respect the will of the people, violating
21:07all types of electoral norms.
21:10Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia won 70 percent of the votes.
21:13Maduro won 30 percent of the votes, which means it's the largest margin of presidential
21:18elections in history of modern Venezuela.
21:21So yesterday's election was epic.
21:23There was a massive turnout.
21:26Calculations are around 12 million people.
21:28And Edmundo just won across all strata, all sectors, all 23 states, and even the capital
21:34city.
21:35So we're excited about that.
21:36What is your source on those figures that you just laid out?
21:40Because, as you know, it's very difficult to get anything out of this government.
21:44Yes.
21:45I mean, yesterday, Maricorina Machado and Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia reported on these
21:49results.
21:50As you would imagine, in any authoritarian regime or, you know, brutal dictatorship,
21:54such as the Maduro regime, you have to have alternative information reporting mechanisms
21:59in place in order to get quick counts, exit polls, and electoral results.
22:04And that was established yesterday.
22:06At least five or six independent firms were hoping to track those results or were helping
22:10to track those results, being Edison Research, one of the most popular ones, which yesterday,
22:15around 4.30 p.m., was already predicting that Edmundo Gonzalez had won with 64 percent of
22:20the votes.
22:21So all those mechanisms were in place.
22:22What are you hearing from people in terms of what they saw at the polling stations and
22:27booths?
22:28Did they have...
22:29Massive turnout.
22:30Massive turnout.
22:31Massive turnout.
22:32People were excited.
22:34People were enthusiastic to be able to actually, you know, have their voices heard at the ballot
22:38box.
22:39I think it's important to understand that this election in particular was different
22:43because it means the reunification of Venezuelan families.
22:46It means you're going to the ballot box, you're voting for change because you want to bring
22:49your brothers, your sisters, your parents, your children back to your country.
22:53So people were excited about that, but towards the end of the night, when people were closing
22:58at the polling stations, things got a little bit rough.
23:01The regime started to bring out irregular groups, or what they call the colectivos,
23:05to create turmoil, to create violence.
23:07They weren't allowing witnesses, and they weren't allowing monitors and citizens to
23:12actually monitor the final closeout of those polling stations.
23:16According to different articles of the Constitution, even Article 337, people have the right to
23:20see what that polling station ended up with its final result.
23:24And the Maduro regime was already creating obstacles towards that nature.
23:28The opposition has said that they will soon announce how they plan to challenge these
23:32results.
23:33Let's hear from the opposition candidate Edmundo Gonzalez and his response.
23:40What happened during today's polling day was a violation of all the rules, to the point
23:45that the majority of electoral registers have still not been handed over.
23:50Our message of reconciliation and peaceful change still stands.
23:53We are convinced most Venezuelans also want this.
23:57Our struggle continues, and we won't rest until the will of the people of Venezuela
24:01is respected.
24:04How do you expect the opposition to respond here?
24:08Because obviously, while they want the voices to be heard, they also don't want to see scenes
24:14that we have seen in the past.
24:16Even if they're peaceful demonstrations on the streets, they clearly don't want to see
24:23people injured or killed.
24:25Yes.
24:26I mean, Venezuelans have went out yesterday to vote peacefully.
24:30And Venezuelans now want a peaceful and orderly transition.
24:33And that's what the opposition, Maria Corina and Edmundo, are working towards.
24:37Right now, the focus is on gathering all the data, gathering all the evidence and gathering
24:41all the information that is needed in order to show that, effectively, Edmundo Gonzalez
24:46has won with 70 percent of the votes.
24:48That data exists.
24:49There's evidence to back it.
24:51And now we're also expecting the international community to also step it up.
24:55Venezuelans yesterday said they want a change.
24:57A lot of international organizations and different countries around the world, Argentina, Paraguay,
25:02Chile, Peru, Latin America, European Union, were saying that they did not believe the
25:07results of the national electoral power.
25:09So now it's the time for the international community to also support Venezuelans in order
25:13to make sure that we'll start a peaceful transition very soon.
25:16Yes.
25:17Left and right-leaning governments in Latin America, we should know, spoke out in outrage
25:22to these quote-unquote results that we saw.
25:27Notable that Javier Mele posted, get out Maduro, calling him a dictator.
25:31Also notable is who congratulated Maduro, and that is the leader of China and Russia.
25:37Is this not a knock on the United States itself, which had at least dangled the prospect of
25:44easing some sanctions if these had been free and fair elections?
25:48Clearly, that wasn't enough to entice Maduro.
25:51So what more can the U.S. government do now, especially given that we're on the precipice
25:56of a presidential election here ourselves?
25:59Yes.
26:00So the good thing about the Venezuelan freedom and the search for Venezuelan freedom is that
26:06this is a bipartisan issue in the United States.
26:08And even though the Biden administration has taken more of a dialogue negotiation approach,
26:13we're hoping that they have all their back channels in place with the Maduro government
26:16to actually allow for a peaceful and orderly transition.
26:19That's the most important priority at the moment, to pressure the Maduro regime to actually
26:22show their results and to show their prefabricated numbers and make sure that they create the
26:27incentives in order for Maduro and a lot of his cronies to leave the country as soon as
26:31possible.
26:32So we've seen Secretary of State Anthony Blinken already saying that he was deeply concerned
26:38about these results.
26:39We saw Vice President Kamala Harris obviously talking about the elections as well.
26:43But we're also expecting the administration and President Biden to also speak on behalf
26:48of the Venezuelan people and to support El Mundo Gonzalez Urrutia, because I think today
26:52the narrative has to be to recognize him and to support him in order for the transition
26:57to start as soon as possible.
26:58We should note the Carter Center of the U.S. and the U.N. are calling on Venezuela for
27:03the commission to publicize their results.
27:08I'm sure most people aren't waiting with bated breath that they will do so.
27:12But what, if anything, can be done to put more pressure on just that?
27:17Yeah, we'll have to see their results.
27:19I think you probably saw over the weekend how different international and political
27:23actors around the world, ex-presidents from Bolivia, from Panama, from Mexico, from Colombia,
27:29they were all trying to travel to Venezuela to actually support the observancy, the international
27:34observancy of the elections.
27:35And they were deported.
27:37Senators from Colombia, senators from Springfield were deported from Venezuela, or they did
27:40not allow their planes to actually lift off to the air to go to Venezuela.
27:44So I think Maduro was doing everything in his power to not allow people to see that
27:50he was going to lose.
27:51And that's why he effectively rigged the elections afterwards.
27:54One of the guests I spoke with in the last hour and also a guest we spoke with last week
27:59ahead of these elections says the consequence of not, of having a rigged election is that
28:04we would see even more Venezuelans try to flee the country.
28:10And that would only exacerbate the migrant crisis that the region is facing.
28:15And the United States, as you know, it is one of the most pertinent issues and top issues
28:21here for voters going into this election.
28:25Talk about what we can expect to see in the next few weeks and months following this.
28:31If Maduro stays in power, people will continue to flee.
28:35And we've seen this trend every time there's an election or a big important political aspect
28:40within the country and Maduro stays in power, people get their bags and start to leave the
28:45country.
28:46And that will mean probably a much bigger influx on the southern border.
28:49We already have 8 million Venezuelans across the world.
28:53There's an 8 million population of diaspora, which by the way, yesterday was not allowed
28:57to vote.
28:58Of those 8 million people, 4.5, almost 5 million people would be able to vote.
29:04But the Maduro regime created so many obstacles in place to impede that as well, because those
29:08people who already fled, they voted with their feet.
29:10So he did not want those votes to come in at any time.
29:13So I think it's important to understand that if Maduro stays in power, migration will continue
29:17without a doubt.
29:19We'll continue to follow this story closely.
29:21It's an important one.
29:22Alexandra Winkler, thank you for joining us.
29:25Well, back to the states.
29:27Two years after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, the fallout over abortion rights
29:31continues.
29:32Today, a new law banning most abortions after six weeks went into effect in Iowa, likely
29:37pushing many to seek out-of-state care.
29:40It's a top issue in this election.
29:42Democrats are seizing the moment to blame Donald Trump's Supreme Court appointments
29:46for dismantling protections for women.
29:49And Kamala Harris just put out this video.
29:51Hey everybody.
29:52So today, Iowa put in place a Trump abortion ban, which makes Iowa the 22nd state in our
29:59country to have a Trump abortion ban.
30:01And this ban is going to take effect before many women even know they're pregnant.
30:06And what this means is that one in three women of reproductive age in America lives
30:11in a state with a Trump abortion ban.
30:14But Trump maintains that abortion laws should be left to the states, and now Iowa has made
30:18its decision clear.
30:20To help make sense of the implications nationwide, I'm joined by Mary Ziegler, a leading abortion
30:24law expert.
30:25She joins us from California.
30:27Mary, welcome back to the program.
30:29We've had many conversations as to how consequential these laws are and the impact it can have
30:36nationally, given other states following suit.
30:40Here we have Iowa and its ban after six weeks, exceptions for rape, incest, as long as they've
30:47been reported, plus the life of the mother are included.
30:51Put this law into context relative to the other strict abortion laws in other states.
30:59This law is kind of a piece of what we're seeing in a lot of states.
31:02So in most states with bans, there are either prohibitions in place from fertilization,
31:08so in other words, throughout pregnancy, or six weeks, which is not so dissimilar.
31:14If you have irregular periods, you may not know you're pregnant at six weeks.
31:19Even if you do, you have to then get together the money, time, and even make a decision
31:24that might be a difficult decision very quickly, and then find a clinic in a state where there
31:29are very few.
31:30So for some people in Iowa, this will feel like an absolute prohibition.
31:34So this is among the more extreme measures we're seeing, although in the 22 states that
31:39Vice President Harris mentioned, we're seeing quite similar prohibitions on the books throughout.
31:45And we know that abortion has been a main issue on the campaign trail since overturning
31:51Grovey Way, though this will be the first time we've seen it in a presidential election.
31:55Obviously, we saw the impact that it had in the midterms two years ago.
32:00But what do you make of the fact that this is the first time we're actually seeing the
32:05consequences of this law being overturned, and voters really having an opportunity to
32:13say their piece about this issue, if it's an important one for them?
32:18Absolutely.
32:20And I think the other thing that's new about this presidential election is that who is
32:23in the White House can make an unprecedented difference to what happens next.
32:27So not just in the sense that the next president will nominate judges who could, for example,
32:32revisit the decision to reverse Roe v. Wade or entrench it, but also because conservatives
32:37as part of Project 2025 have argued that federal law might already prohibit abortion.
32:43In other words, that states that want to permit abortion may not be able to do so, regardless
32:48of what Congress does because of the Comstock Act and 19th century law that Project 2025
32:53features prominently.
32:54So we're at a point not only where voters can register that they were unhappy with what
33:00happened when Roe v. Wade was overturned, but where voters will also have a say in what
33:04happens next.
33:05It's not just a question of whether we're going to stay with the status quo, with the
33:09nation divided between states that permit and do not permit abortion.
33:13We're going to see abortion opponents push even further to try to get something at the
33:16federal level, likely through executive action rather than through Congress.
33:20We have people, candidates, former candidate to Biden, current president Biden, and now
33:27Kamala Harris saying that they will codify abortion rights if elected nationwide.
33:33I'm curious the likelihood, in your view, even if they do win, of that happening?
33:41I think a great first step and maybe a more realistic first step, given how close this
33:47election is going to be and how narrow a Democratic majority would be possible if there
33:51is any Democratic majority possible at all, I think we'd be more likely to see something
33:55like getting rid of bad old zombie laws like the Comstock Act.
33:59I think passing strong protections for abortion rights will be hard given that Congress will
34:03likely be very, very divided if Democrats are able to gain majorities at all.
34:10At the same time, I think it's really important for Vice President Harris to lay out what
34:14the goal is, what are we aspiring to if you're a Democrat or an abortion rights supporter.
34:19In other words, sometimes you have to be hopeful about the future, even if the future is going
34:25to be a little bit far away from the standpoint of people who support abortion rights.
34:30It's interesting that Donald Trump seems very uncomfortable with this subject.
34:35On the one hand, he takes credit and boasts about putting the Supreme Court justices on
34:41the bench that ultimately overturned Roe v. Wade.
34:44But then he seems to think of this as a case closed, the perfect solution is just leaving
34:48it up to the states.
34:50As we know, that's only led to more confusion.
34:53And not only that, the person he's put on the ticket as his running mate, at least at
34:57one point, was advocating for a national ban.
35:00And we know a significant portion of the Republican Party advocates for that as well.
35:04Jason Point, listen to the former President Donald Trump speaking at a conservative Christian
35:11event on this issue over the weekend.
35:13Like Ronald Reagan, I strongly believe in exceptions for life of the mother, rape and
35:19incest.
35:20I think it's very important.
35:21Don't forget, we have to, you have to go, you have to go with your heart, but you also
35:27have to win elections.
35:29How do you read his position on this and what we could see in a second Trump term?
35:36Well, I think the most important thing that the former president said is you have to win
35:40elections.
35:41I think we really don't know what he would do.
35:44So on the one hand, he said he thinks that abortion should be left to the states.
35:48On the other hand, you have J.D. Vance saying that there either needs to be a new national
35:51ban or again, that this zombie law, the Comstock Act already is a national ban.
35:56When asked himself, Donald Trump's kind of punted, right?
35:59So in a Time Magazine interview, Trump would not answer whether he would veto a national
36:04ban, whether he would enforce the Comstock Act as a ban.
36:07He's just never answered the question.
36:09So we really have no idea what we would get from a second Trump administration.
36:14What we do know is that certain things are possible in a second Trump administration
36:18that would never have been possible before.
36:20So I think voters need to take into account the fact that they may not have any certainty
36:23about what a second Trump administration would mean, but they do know what it could
36:27mean.
36:28And that would be prohibitions that would have effects, not just in states that already
36:33prohibit abortion, but in places that have passed ballot initiatives and states that
36:37are progressive and states that are battlegrounds.
36:41All of that is possible.
36:42Whether it's a guarantee, we have no idea because the former president has been sending
36:45contradictory messages.
36:47It's safe to say, though, that we could see a lot of this once again mired in courtrooms
36:51across the country, ultimately headed back once again to the Supreme Court.
36:57Mary Ziegler, as always, great to have you on.
37:00Thanks for having me.
37:01Well, now, as we've heard, restrictive abortion policies are hurting women across the country,
37:06particularly those in rural Appalachian communities that are subject to Kentucky's statewide
37:11abortion ban.
37:12In her recent Atlantic piece, Hillbilly Women Will Get No Help From J.D. Vance, Cassie
37:17Chambers Armstrong highlights that despite the Republican vice presidential candidate
37:21claiming his family's Appalachian values, his stance on women shows his failure to recognize
37:27the challenges they actually face.
37:30And the state senator joins Michelle Martin to share how rural women can be better supported.
37:37Thanks Bianna.
37:38Cassie Chambers Armstrong, thank you so much for speaking with us.
37:42Thanks for having me.
37:43So, you know, you wear a number of hats.
37:45You are a lawyer.
37:46You are a state senator.
37:47You're an author.
37:49But I wanted to talk to you about a piece that you wrote for The Atlantic titled Hillbilly
37:53Women Will Get No Help From J.D. Vance.
37:56You wrote a book called Hill Women and you identify as one, at least members of your
38:01family do.
38:02Would you just tell us a little bit about your story?
38:04Sure.
38:05In many ways, the arc of my life looks similar to that of J.D. Vance's.
38:09I was born into extreme poverty in eastern Kentucky.
38:13I eventually had the opportunity to go and earn Ivy League degrees.
38:17So that looks like J.D. Vance's story.
38:19But the things I took away from the story are very different than things he took away,
38:23whereas he sort of told this bootstraps narrative, focused on himself and focused on overcoming
38:28Appalachia.
38:29My story, when I think about it, I think about the women and I try to center the women in
38:33Appalachia that created the opportunities for me.
38:36So my family is from Owsley County, Kentucky.
38:39It is one of the poorest counties in America by household income.
38:43And it really took three generations of women in my family working really hard to create
38:48those opportunities for me.
38:49That doesn't fit as nicely into a movie or into sort of that uplifting narrative.
38:55I don't think I really knew that I had a story worth telling, honestly, until I read Hillbilly
39:00Elegy.
39:01At first, I was really excited to read the book.
39:03It was written based in a county, one county over from where I grew up.
39:07I never thought that I would write a book.
39:09And then I had some women say, you know, if you disagree with what he's saying about
39:13Appalachia and women like those that raised you, you should respond.
39:18And so a couple of years later, Hill Women came out.
39:21Tell me about what are the things that you think that people who think about Appalachia
39:25get right?
39:26And what are some of the things you think that they get wrong, at least from your experience?
39:32It's always hard for me to know what parts of Appalachia to talk about to the outside
39:36world, because there are certainly very severe problems.
39:39There's a lot of poverty.
39:41There are problems like access to medical care, transportation challenges.
39:45It is a place that struggles.
39:47But I don't like just stopping there, just saying it is a place that has challenges,
39:52because it also has so much possibility and potential.
39:55And so I'd like to tell the stories primarily of women who have always had this quiet leadership
40:00role in Appalachia, women like my granny who had an elementary education, but pushed her
40:06children to be able to get an education.
40:08My aunt Ruth, who was the hardest farm worker and the best farm worker in Owsley County,
40:13Kentucky, even though she was a woman, and she saved up her money working on farms to
40:17be able to help her little sister go to college.
40:20People like Eula, who started a health care system just because she decided someone needed
40:25to do it.
40:26And that health care system grew to serve 200,000 people in the Appalachian Mountains.
40:31And so there is so much leadership there.
40:33There's so much potential there.
40:35We don't need outsiders to come in and save Appalachia.
40:38We need folks to give us the resources to be able to solve our problems ourselves.
40:41Well, you know, a lot of people thought that that's what J.D. Vance was going to do.
40:45I mean, when he kind of first burst on the scene, you know, a lot of people felt that
40:52it was almost like he was speaking to give people dignity and to kind of round out the
40:57picture of Appalachia.
40:59But what I'm hearing you say is you think he's kind of flattened it out.
41:04I'll be honest.
41:05I've always had a problem with J.D. Vance speaking for Appalachia.
41:08I always thought it was a little tenuous to take the connection that he had to eastern
41:12Kentucky and claim to speak for the people there.
41:15But I was a little hopeful that maybe he would use it to elevate issues and things that I
41:19care about.
41:20Maybe he would use it to solve the very real challenges in eastern Kentucky.
41:26Whenever he ran for U.S. Senate and all of a sudden all of this hillbilly rhetoric, you
41:30know, he went from saying, I'm a hillbilly at heart, making a lot of money from selling
41:35that story to launching a campaign page that there was no mention of Appalachia, eastern
41:40Kentucky, anything hillbilly anywhere on that page.
41:44And so what you saw was he just abandoned that identity when it no longer served him.
41:49Rubbed me the wrong way.
41:50And quite frankly, I think it rubbed a lot of people in eastern Kentucky the wrong way.
41:54It's not just the way he talks about his upbringing that kind of sticks in your craw.
41:59You really feel that the policies that he is now espousing are really harmful to the
42:05people that he says that he cares about and wants to uplift.
42:09So could you just be more specific and say what is it about at least the policies that
42:13he now embraces that you feel are so that are so disturbing?
42:18After I graduated from law school, I started practicing in rural Kentucky, providing free
42:23legal services to domestic violence survivors that live there.
42:27And so being connected to that community, I can see the way that the policies that J.D.
42:32Vance champions really are going to impact that community.
42:36It bothers me that J.D. Vance has suggested that women should remain in abusive marriages.
42:41I've seen firsthand in my clients the impact that staying in a violent marriage can have
42:45and the way that it hurts people, hurts their kids.
42:48I know that there is some survivor of violence out there that when they hear J.D. Vance say,
42:54well, what's wrong with American culture is that people are too quick to leave abusive
42:59and violent marriages.
43:00There's someone who is about to leave an abusive marriage who's going to say, well, maybe I
43:04should stay a little bit longer.
43:05Maybe I should wait it out.
43:06Let me hold on just one second.
43:07Let me just hold it because I think some people might argue that he's being misinterpreted.
43:13The full quote is, this is one of the great tricks that I think the sexual revolution
43:16pulled on the American populace, which is the idea that like, well, OK, these marriages
43:21were fundamentally, you know, they were maybe even violent, but certainly they were unhappy.
43:26And so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses like they changed
43:30their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long term.
43:33And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads, though I'm skeptical, but it really didn't
43:37work out for the kids of those marriages.
43:39So you really you really think that he's saying you should stay in an abusive marriage or
43:43you think that it's the idea that he even surfaces this idea kind of leads to that conclusion?
43:49I think what matters is that people who are impacted, people who are in those abusive
43:53marriages hear it as a critique of them for trying to leave those marriages.
43:57And I know that from conversations that I've had with survivors of violence who when they
44:02hear those words to them, it sounds like you're saying that you're hurting your kids by leaving
44:08a violent and abusive marriage.
44:10And based on my experience representing women throughout rural Kentucky, the opposite is
44:15true.
44:16Having a violent and abusive relationship is one of the best things you can do to keep
44:19yourself safe and to keep your children safe.
44:22Are there specific challenges that may be in rural environments that maybe people who
44:25live in cities don't really know about?
44:28There are.
44:29And I saw this firsthand when I was practicing as a legal aid attorney, and now I actually
44:32study these challenges.
44:34I look at domestic violence protective orders and how much more difficult it is for people
44:39in rural areas like Appalachia to access court systems to be able to get relief.
44:44So if you are someone who is in a domestic violence situation in Appalachia, you're less
44:50likely to be able to get an attorney.
44:52You are likely to live further away from a legal aid organization where you could get
44:56that type of help.
44:58You're less likely to have access to other sorts of supportive services and information
45:02about them.
45:03You're more likely to have your case heard in an open courtroom with everyone else in
45:08town sitting there instead of in sort of a private proceeding with just you and the judge.
45:13From what I've seen, all of those things impact people's likelihood of being able to see through
45:18the legal process.
45:19The other thing that Vance has criticized is subsidized daycare.
45:22You know, he says that he feels like this is kind of a sop to elites, you know, because
45:29for to sort of support their lifestyle choices.
45:32What about that?
45:33What do you have to say about that?
45:34Yeah, I think it's really out of touch with the issues that are impacting working families
45:40throughout America, particularly in rural Kentucky, particularly in Appalachia.
45:45I was sworn into elected office when my youngest child was six weeks old.
45:49As you can imagine, I've thought a lot about daycare policy, in part because when I called
45:53and said, could I get a daycare spot, they said, sure, the waiting list is only two years.
45:58And I know a lot of families are in that situation.
46:00I'm lucky that I now live in a more urban area where there are good, high quality, affordable
46:05child care centers.
46:06A lot of our rural areas, those just don't exist.
46:10And what I'm proud of in Kentucky is we've built a bipartisan coalition to do this kind
46:14of work.
46:15We actually passed a law this past legislative session that was championed by a rural Republican
46:20around making sure that local governments had more tools to bring child care centers
46:25in.
46:26When we look at the impact of women in particular, but also families, the economic impact of
46:31not having access to quality and affordable child care, it's a it's a huge hit for those
46:37families economically.
46:38It's a huge hit for communities.
46:40It's one of the most important investments that we could be making right now.
46:43You also have done research that suggests that people in rural areas are 55 percent
46:50more likely to face eviction judgments compared to their urban counterparts.
46:56Why is that?
46:57And what effect do you think that this has on women in particular?
47:01Yeah.
47:02So I really try to put numbers to the things that I saw as a legal aid attorney.
47:07That's why I now look into rural courts.
47:09And honestly, not a lot of people are researching rural court systems because they are further
47:15away from academic institutions.
47:17They don't have as many nonprofits.
47:19And every time I look into it, I find that the numbers support my experience that there
47:24are disparities.
47:25And so with eviction, if we hold all other things equal, people in rural areas are 55
47:31percent more likely to have their eviction case proceed to judgment.
47:36And so we don't exactly know why.
47:38I have some theories.
47:39People in rural areas are less likely to have attorneys.
47:41We have a lot of legal deserts.
47:44There are fewer nonprofits to sort of swoop in and be able to help support people.
47:49Court systems have fewer nonprofits coming in to set up these early interventions.
47:55But at the end of the day, it means that we have a lot of folks in rural communities experiencing
47:58housing instability and we don't see it.
48:01It's one of those things that we don't talk about enough.
48:04So I think my hope is that people see these numbers and they realize there are problems.
48:09Housing instability does exist in rural areas and we need to do something about it.
48:13J.D. Vance, as a senator, has espoused highly restrictive abortion policies.
48:19But I'm just interested to ask you how you think these restrictions affect rural women
48:25in particular.
48:27So I now serve in the legislature of a state that has one of the most extreme abortion
48:31bans in the entire country.
48:34And I see every single day the impact that that has on people in rural communities, particularly
48:39we know women in rural communities struggle to access health care in general.
48:43And abortion care is another piece of that.
48:45It is harder for them to be able to travel out of state if they have a non-viable pregnancy,
48:50if they wish to receive abortion care.
48:52There's actually been a Kentucky woman who has been leading nationally at the forefront
48:56of this, Hadley Duvall.
48:58And she has shared her story of becoming pregnant after her stepfather raped her when she was
49:0312 years old.
49:05And she's spoken really powerfully about what it meant for her in that moment to have options.
49:09And now under Kentucky law, she has no options.
49:12And J.D. Vance wants to take away options from women and girls all across America.
49:19That's wrong.
49:20And I think a majority of Americans agree that's wrong.
49:22I want to go back to how we started our conversation, which is that in a way you've kind of been
49:27in dialogue with J.D. Vance for a while now.
49:31Like once his story kind of burst onto the scene, it kind of helped you reflect on your
49:36own story.
49:38And I'm just wondering why you think it is that you and he have come to such different
49:43conclusions about what the problems are and what should be done about those problems.
49:50I think it's a great question.
49:52And I really believe that a lot of it is the way that we talk about what we often call
49:56progress, this sort of poverty to prosperity story.
50:00I take issue with the idea that leaving a rural community or leaving an impoverished
50:04community is always just progress.
50:07I think you lose things when you leave the community that you're from.
50:11But I think the way that Vance talks about that narrative is very focused on him.
50:15And it's very focused on this idea that Appalachia is a place that you have to overcome.
50:19It is a place that in his view is hopeless, that is broken.
50:25And he needs it to be that.
50:26He needs it to be that because he wants us to be invested in him escaping it and in him
50:31overcoming it.
50:33And I think that that's a really reductionist view.
50:35This bootstraps narrative that we tell so often is very easy, but it doesn't get at
50:40the complexity.
50:41But how do you also account for the fact that, you know, some of Donald Trump's strongest
50:47supporters in recent years in his public life have been white evangelicals, people
50:54in rural areas.
50:57Why is that?
50:58So Kentucky is a really interesting place to be, because in up until 2016, our state
51:04house was actually under Democratic control, our House of Representatives, and that surprises
51:09a lot of people.
51:10But Kentucky, like a lot of communities in Appalachia, is deeply rooted in the labor
51:16movement and in workers rights and in a lot of kitchen table issues.
51:21It's interesting.
51:22Kentucky has a Democratic governor in Appalachia.
51:25We still elect a lot of Democratic local officials.
51:29And so I still believe that the Democratic Party can connect in Appalachia and does connect
51:34in Appalachia.
51:35It's based a lot on this idea that people need to know that you understand where they're
51:39from, you understand their problems.
51:42And so I like to try to complicate the picture of Appalachia.
51:45It's not sort of this monolith where everybody believes the same thing or believes the same
51:50thing for the same reasons.
51:51It's actually a really complicated political landscape right now.
51:54OK, but you still aren't financing my question, which is, why is it that some of his strongest
51:59supporters are people who share some of the life experiences of the people in Appalachia?
52:05I look at people in eastern Kentucky, and they understand that their community is marginalized
52:11and that it's not getting the sorts of investments that it needs.
52:15And I think there's a little distrust of outsiders of the federal government in general,
52:21because people of both political parties for a long time have come and promised to make
52:24things better.
52:26And people are still living in poverty.
52:28And I think it frustrates a lot of people.
52:30And so I think what was appealing about Donald Trump initially was this idea that he was
52:35saying that he was going to basically remake government, that he was going to get rid of
52:40the institutions and fight the institutions that were really posing challenges for people
52:46in their day-to-day lives.
52:48And that was appealing, this idea that, well, this is a system that people of both parties
52:53have said for a long time is going to help me, and it isn't.
52:55Let's just get rid of it and start over.
52:57And so I think that was the message that initially broke through to folks.
53:01So before we let you go, do you think that people are listening to you?
53:09I mean, to your recollection of Appalachia, the people you grew up with, the way you see
53:15them, I mean, Hillbilly Elegy was a big bestseller.
53:19A movie was made out of it by one of the country's most popular directors, Ron Howard.
53:25You've got a different story to tell.
53:27And I just wonder if you think people are listening to you.
53:28I don't think it's just about me.
53:30I have been really heartened to see a lot of different people raising their voices and
53:35telling their Appalachian story about what their journey is like and what their experience
53:40is like.
53:41And none of us individually might have the platform that Vance does, but I do believe
53:46the more that you put those voices out there and complicate people's understanding of Appalachia
53:51and push back, that's really how change begins to happen.
53:56One of the things that I was most proud of is when Hill Women launched, I did it in a
54:01central Kentucky bookstore.
54:05It was a rainy weeknight, wasn't really expecting a lot of people to be there.
54:09When I showed up, there was a line of women waiting to get in and I was talking to them.
54:13And a lot of them were women from Appalachia who had driven there, some of them with their
54:16daughters because they wanted to meet me and they wanted their daughters to meet me.
54:22And they wanted to tell me that this was a book that reflected more of their experience
54:25and that they were proud to read this and that made them feel proud of where they were
54:29from.
54:30And to me, that's a win.
54:31If there is anyone out there that feels like this has made them feel proud to be an Appalachian,
54:37that it's pushing back on a narrative that they thought was harmful, that's why I wrote
54:40it.
54:41Cassie Chambers Armstrong, state senator, the author of Hill Women.
54:45Thank you so much for speaking with us.
54:47Thanks for having me.
54:49And finally, as the world watches China and Great Britain rack up diving medals in Paris,
54:55Bosnia-Herzegovina hosted a diving spectacle of its own.
54:59Divers braved the heat to cheer divers from around the country and abroad as they plunged
55:04into the river below in the historic city of Mostar.
55:08But the 458-year-old tradition wasn't always possible.
55:12The old bridge, as it is known, was destroyed in the Bosnian War in 1993.
55:18Yesterday's event marked the 20th anniversary of this reconstructed bridge, celebrating
55:23its journey from wartime ruin to a UNESCO World Heritage Site and a symbol of reconciliation,
55:31leaving the show with a bit of hope and cheers.
55:35And that's it for our program tonight.
55:36If you want to find out what's coming up on the show each night, sign up for our newsletter
55:40at PBS.org slash Amanpour.
55:43Thank you for watching Amanpour & Company on PBS.
55:45Join us again tomorrow night.

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