From June 14, 2024, Malala joins the show to discuss her foundation’s announcement of another $1.5 million pledged to keep girls’ education alive in Afghanistan. Ofir Amir is an October 7th survivor and helped produce an exhibition that aims to take viewers through what happened that day at the Nova Music Festival. A.J. Jacobs on his new book “The Year of Living Constitutionally.”
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Porn Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:08We refuse to let the Taliban deprive girls of their future.
00:13A call to action after a thousand days since the Taliban banned Afghan girls from going
00:19to school.
00:20I speak to Nobel Laureate Malala Yousafzai and...
00:23When terrorists are shooting at you, you just leave everything behind.
00:28Remembering Nova, founder of the music festival Ophir Amir, tells me about surviving Hamas's
00:33attack and his new exhibit documenting that day.
00:37Then...
00:38It was a shockingly different time.
00:40The past is a foreign country.
00:43The year of living constitutionally.
00:45Hari Sreenivasan talks to author A.J. Jacobs, who spent 12 months living like it's the 1700s.
00:58Amman Porn Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood and
01:17Leslie Williams, Candice King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark
01:24J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum,
01:33Kou and Patricia Ewen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:40Hope Zuckerberg, additional support provided by these funders, and by contributions to
01:47your PBS station from viewers like you.
01:52Welcome to the program, everyone.
01:53I'm Bianna Goldriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
01:57A grim milestone in Afghanistan this week, as the country marks a thousand days since
02:02girls were banned from attending secondary school.
02:06This has the Taliban continue to tighten their grip on the country, despite promising moderation
02:11after taking power in August of 2021.
02:14It is now once more a desperate place for women, who for public parks, to jobs, find
02:19themselves fading away.
02:21And it's a reality Malala Yousafzai calls gender apartheid, a term she calls on world
02:27leaders to recognize as a crime against humanity.
02:30Malala, of course, is a survivor of that violence against girls, shot by a Pakistani Taliban,
02:36by the Pakistani Taliban on her way home from school, when she was just 15 years old.
02:41She has since become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize winner and a fierce advocate for
02:45the rights of girls and women around the world.
02:48Today, her foundation, the Malala Fund, is announcing another one and a half million
02:52dollars to keep girls education alive in Afghanistan.
02:57And she joins me now from New York.
02:59Malala Yousafzai, thank you so much for joining us on this program, on this really grim milestone
03:06marking 1,000 days since girls in Afghanistan have been deprived of what should be something
03:14every child is entitled to.
03:16And that obviously is an education.
03:19Just talk to us personally about what this moment means for you.
03:26It has been three years that Afghan girls have not seen their classrooms.
03:31It has been more than 1,000 days that Afghan girls have not seen the opportunity to learn.
03:38And that is making girlhood illegal in Afghanistan.
03:43The Taliban are denying women and girls their human rights.
03:47And this should shock us.
03:49This should put us into action.
03:52That's why I think it's so important for us to call it a systematic oppression imposed
03:58by the Taliban on the women of Afghanistan, which is limiting them from education, from
04:03learning, from work, and from a public life.
04:06And that is why Afghan women activists are calling it a gender apartheid, which means
04:11it is a systematic oppression by those who are in power, who are meant to actually protect
04:16them.
04:17There is no place for Afghan women to go to.
04:20They have currently no future.
04:24Are you satisfied?
04:26And I would assume the answer is no.
04:28With the attention and focus this specific issue is getting from around the world, and
04:34the pressure being put on the Taliban to bring this up time and time again, the real
04:40abuse, emotional, mental, psychological, and even physical, that women have had to endure
04:48since they came back into power.
04:51I have been doing this activism since the fall of Kabul in 2021.
04:56And I remember at the time the outrage that Afghan women and girls were showing that we
05:01cannot trust the Taliban.
05:03That some people said that we need to give them a bit more time, and we need to trust
05:06the Taliban on their promises.
05:08But the women, the Afghan women knew it.
05:11Now it has been more than three years.
05:13What is the excuse now?
05:15It is so important that those who are negotiating and talking to the Taliban prioritize women's
05:20rights and girls' education, that women's rights and girls' education is a non-negotiable
05:26condition on the table.
05:28And those women have to be in those rooms where decisions about their future are made
05:33And there are meetings happening the end of this month as well, so I do push leaders,
05:36I do push the U.N. officials as well, that they have to ensure that there is no compromise
05:42on the rights of women and girls.
05:44We cannot live in a society where we all claim, our leaders claim, that we care about gender
05:49equity and equality, while we are putting all of that at risk in Afghanistan.
05:55We are not even reacting that girls' education right now is banned, is prohibited for girls.
06:02A reminder of the false promises made and perhaps the naive trust or hope that was given
06:10to this new Taliban, as they called it, 2.0, when they came back to power.
06:16This has been an issue that we have focused a lot of time on here at CNN, Christiane Amanpour
06:21specifically, as you know.
06:24And she brought this question up with the deputy leader of the Taliban at the time in
06:292022 and asked him about girls' rights.
06:32Here's what he had to say.
06:36What I am saying is that the international community is raising the issue of women's
06:42rights a lot.
06:44Here in Afghanistan, there are Islamic, national, cultural and traditional principles.
06:57Within the limit of those principles, we are working to provide them with opportunities
07:03to work, and that is our goal.
07:06Malala, how do you respond to that?
07:08What are these, quote-unquote, opportunities within the limits of the parameters, he said?
07:14There are a dozen of Muslim countries in the world.
07:18And in none of those Muslim countries do you see girls prohibited from education or women
07:22prohibited from work.
07:23It's not a crime for girls to have rights in those countries.
07:27At the same time, we know that culture and religion are often used as an excuse by the
07:32Taliban and by other extremists as well to limit women, to protect their misogyny.
07:38There is no solid basis for that at all.
07:41Islam actually encourages education for all children, for everybody.
07:45And in Islam, it is your responsibility to get education.
07:49I don't know what sort of system, what sort of ideology they are talking about.
07:55But the culture that I come from and the religion that I know, it encourages education.
08:00And I think the Taliban need to – we also – like, at this point, I would say we need
08:04more Muslim leaders and more Muslim countries to step forward.
08:08And actually challenge the Taliban to say that, in Islam, there is no justification
08:12for a ban on girls' education and for preventing women from work in the Islamic context.
08:18We should note that this isn't just a human right that's being deprived of women.
08:21It's a right that's really hurting the Afghan economy as well, where so many women
08:26are just not allowed to contribute.
08:29You are, though, contributing, though, through your fund, $1.5 million, as we noted.
08:34Explain to us how you and your fund, through this money, are able to help in any way you
08:40can specifically.
08:42What are you doing?
08:43When I think about the future of Afghanistan, it's still the women and girls who give
08:47me hope.
08:48They are protesting on the streets every day for their right to an education, to work,
08:53to political representation, and to a public life.
08:56That's why we are supporting Afghan activists on the ground.
08:59The Malala Fund is announcing $1.5 million additional funding to organizations, 13 organizations
09:05in Afghanistan who are working on the front line to advocate for girls' right to an education.
09:11And we're also, at the same time, supporting the campaign and the movement led by Afghan
09:15women to end — to recognize gender apartheid and to end it, and to hold the Taliban to
09:21account for committing these crimes, and to push leaders and to hold them account as well
09:27to ensure that they also take steps.
09:29It was in 2013, some 11 years ago, when you were 16, that you spoke before the U.N.
09:36And here's what you said.
09:37You said, peace is necessary for education.
09:39You say there's way too much suffering and war happening right now as we speak.
09:44There are two big hot wars in Ukraine and in Gaza there.
09:49And I know that you have recently announced a new graduate program and scholarship for
09:54Palestinians at Oxford University.
09:57Just talk to us about this mission for you and the hope that you would like to give Palestinian
10:06women, children, in terms of their efforts to go to school, to go back to school, because,
10:12obviously, that can't happen right now.
10:15First of all, I think we need to remind all of us that what is happening in Gaza to Palestinian
10:21people, to Palestinian children, is horrifying.
10:24More than 80 percent of the schools have been damaged.
10:27Almost all universities have been bombed in this bombing by Israel.
10:31So, when I think about any war, any crisis in the world, I think about children.
10:36These wars take away their dreams, their future.
10:39I want girls to be in a classroom.
10:41I want children to be studying, to be dreaming about their future, to be playing outside
10:46on their streets.
10:47War and conflicts and oppression takes all of that away from children.
10:52We are seeing that happening in Afghanistan.
10:54We are seeing these things happening in Sudan and in Gaza.
10:58This has to stop.
10:59And, again, I want our leaders to think about the children, to think about humanity, and
11:03to take a brave step towards peace.
11:07And the same I'm hoping for Afghanistan as well, that it has been 1,000 days.
11:12I cannot imagine that it's 2,000 days, 3,000 days.
11:16We cannot keep Afghan girls waiting.
11:19And I want to reiterate that it's so important for us to stand with Afghan women and girls.
11:23They are at the forefront of this campaign.
11:26So, I'm here to share my empathy and to share my solidarity with them, to all the activists
11:31in the world who are speaking about peace, of justice.
11:34Yes.
11:35Malala, I can't think of a better spokesperson for this issue and your bravery and your continued
11:40fight for this very, very important mission, educating women, educating girls, giving them
11:46the rights that they deserve.
11:47Malala Yousafzai, thank you so much for joining the program today.
11:53And freedom remains also elusive for the many hostages still held in Gaza by Hamas.
11:58Some of them are from the Nova Music Festival, where an event dedicated to peace and love
12:03became the scene of a massacre by Hamas militants on October 7.
12:07Now, an exhibition in New York aims to take viewers through what happened that day, presenting
12:12them with remains salvaged from the festival grounds.
12:16Ofer Amir is a survivor of that attack.
12:19He is also one of the founders of the festival and has helped produce this exhibition.
12:24In the wake of protests this week outside the exhibit, including people calling for
12:27intifada, Ofer gave me a tour and explained the importance of remembering.
12:34One of the most powerful parts of this exhibit are just the belongings that no one came to
12:39claim, from hats and bags, as you see here, soccer balls, water bottles, to clothing items,
12:52and then ultimately the shoes.
12:54I think for so many people it's very reminiscent of what they see at the Holocaust Museum,
13:01and just it gives you a sense of the scope of what was lost that day.
13:09How did this come about?
13:11Well, you know, everything that you see here, from all the belongings, and the tents, and
13:19the chairs, and with the help of the police, we managed to gather all of these belongings.
13:27And when you see the shoes, it's clear, it's reminding us exactly of what happened to us
13:37a hundred years ago at the Holocaust, and people were running away and left everything
13:46behind, even their shoes, and I was one of the last people to leave the festival area.
13:52And we saw the tents broken, and we saw all their belongings and bags, and I was asked
13:57myself, how could someone run away without their bag?
14:01But when terrorists are shooting at you, you just leave everything behind.
14:06How many of the survivors have been here?
14:09We had, I'd say, over 50 of the survivors coming here and being part of the team and
14:15telling their story.
14:16And you've really encompassed a multi-sensory feeling and exhibit here.
14:23This is exactly the feeling that we wanted to give everyone that goes through this journey,
14:28the feel, the smell.
14:30And we also explain to everyone that is entering this exhibition, it's not like a museum where
14:36you cannot touch anything.
14:38You want people to touch the tents and the belongings to get the sense of what we went
14:44through.
14:45And this is the wall honoring all the victims?
14:49Yeah.
14:50How many in total?
14:52Three hundred and...
14:53Four hundred and one.
14:54Four hundred and one.
14:55Including the police and the security guards, and too many, I know too many faces here.
15:04This was a really good friend of mine, Nathan.
15:12And I know where was he, I just saw him.
15:15This is a real hero.
15:17Nathaniel, he's a hero.
15:19His parents were also here in the first two weeks.
15:23How are you feeling today?
15:25Physically?
15:27Well, physically it's getting better every day.
15:32I've been working really hard on recovering.
15:36I was shot in both of my legs and my right leg was paralyzed for a few weeks.
15:42My mission was always to get better as fast as I can because my daughter was born four
15:47weeks after.
15:48You were one of the founders of the Nova Festival.
15:51You were there on October 7th, where sadly over 350 partygoers, concertgoers, music attendees
15:59lost their lives, were slaughtered.
16:02You're one of the lucky ones to be alive.
16:04Your wife was nine months pregnant, so she wasn't there with you.
16:07Walk us through that day.
16:09Well, 6-29 is when the work had started, and I remember the first moment we were looking
16:17at the sky, and it was like hundreds of rockets.
16:25The first feeling was, okay, I was standing next to me, another producer was standing
16:30next to me, and we were looking at each other, and you don't want to believe that it's happening.
16:37There's like this feeling of hope that, okay, we have the Iron Dome, unfortunately when
16:41you live in Israel, you know rockets.
16:46And I'm telling him, we have Iron Dome, know that they will not shut us down.
16:51You wanted the concert to still go.
16:52You didn't understand the scope and the magnitude of the attack.
16:56We had no idea.
16:57We had no idea.
16:59And at around 8 o'clock in the morning, this is when, yeah, this is when the first time
17:06we understood, okay, it's real.
17:08We saw them coming with their pickup trucks, like four pickup trucks.
17:12The Hamas heiress, yeah.
17:14We understand that they're surrounding us, and they came with their pickup trucks and
17:17heavy machine guns, and then they start shooting into the crowd.
17:22The bullets are hitting next to us, and you can hear them.
17:26You can feel them going next to your head.
17:29And so this is the first moment when we understand, okay, this is real.
17:34How long after the rocket started were you shot?
17:38How many hours later?
17:40I was shot at around, a little bit before 10 o'clock in the morning, so it's about three
17:45and a half hours.
17:46And how long until you were rescued?
17:49Another four hours.
17:50After I got shot, we managed to, I don't know how, but we managed to escape the terrorists
17:56three times, because they shot us, and then they shot us again.
18:00And this exhibit now, which has extended its stay twice in New York City, was initially
18:08literally a lost and found for those survivors, for those family members of the loved ones
18:15to come and claim their clothing, their belongings.
18:20How did that evolve into what it is today?
18:23We recreated the festival, the main stage of the festival in Tel Aviv.
18:29And so the idea was for the memorial, and it evolved to, again, for the memorial.
18:36And once we opened the doors in Tel Aviv, we understood after a few days that it's not
18:42only for the memorial.
18:44We have such a strong tool in our hand to show the world what happened.
18:48There's so much denial on social media and so much hate.
18:52Did that denial and hate for music lovers who were simply coming to a peaceful concert,
19:00did that surprise you?
19:02Yes.
19:03Yes.
19:04Yes, it surprises me, because a music festival, the dance floor, it's supposed to be the safest
19:11place on earth.
19:13It's the place with so much joy, and everyone who comes there can be whoever they want to
19:18be.
19:19It's a place of love and freedom and peace.
19:22And we were disappointed that we didn't get the support of the music industry, of even
19:28the — we are part of the global trans music community.
19:33And even from the — some — the major trans music festivals, they didn't support us.
19:39And it's disappointing, because this exhibition, this festival, it has nothing to do with religion
19:44or politics or — because we believe that, no matter where you — when you're on the
19:50dance floor and we listen to the same music, we are the same.
19:53Why do you think that silence exists, that lack of support?
19:58I wish I could answer this.
20:01I wish I had an answer for this.
20:04Earlier this week, there were mass protests right outside this exhibit here on Wall Street.
20:09Some of just the unadulterated anti-Semitism, what was quite shocking.
20:14People were chanting, long live the intifada, Israel, go to hell.
20:19In one video, a man declares, I wish Hitler was still here.
20:22He would have wiped you, Jewish people, all out.
20:27Something a lot of people have spoken out against.
20:29The mayor of New York City called it despicable.
20:33What was going through your minds when you heard those chants outside?
20:37Well, I'm not surprised they came here to demonstrate, because I've been here in New
20:44York for the past two months, and I hear in the news and see these demonstrations at colleges
20:49and what's going on all over the United States.
20:54There's so much lack of education.
21:00And sometimes I feel sorry for them, because when you ask them one question, where is Israel,
21:07they don't even know where Israel is.
21:09Because we've been talking to some protesters before, there were a group of five or a group
21:13of two in the last weeks, and we approached them and told them, listen, come and look
21:18for yourself.
21:19Come look inside what you're protesting against.
21:23And there's no interest of communication from their side.
21:28And well, in some kind of way, it breaks my heart that there's so much hate out there,
21:37because we are exactly the opposite.
21:39I say we, the festival producers and the NOVA founders, but also as an Israeli and as a
21:46Jew, we don't hate.
21:47We don't want this hate.
21:48We don't hate back.
21:52We're now over eight months into this horrific war.
21:56There's been so much tragedy and innocent life lost, obviously, in Israel and subsequently
22:03in Gaza amongst civilians there.
22:05I'm just wondering for you, as someone who embraces peace, how have the past eight months
22:13been for you?
22:15Well, we're dealing with so much in the last eight months since October 7.
22:23I almost got murdered.
22:25We focus on the good.
22:26We focus on the light.
22:27It's not easy to live in Israel.
22:28It's not easy that you hear in the news every few days more soldiers that have been killed
22:34or Palestinians that died out of the consequences.
22:39And this is not what we want.
22:43And, well, we are not politicians or anything, but it's easy.
22:49Give back the hostages and it will be over.
22:52Four of them, as you know, were thankfully rescued alive this past weekend.
22:59But even, and they were NOVA music fans, they were attending the NOVA music festival.
23:07And yet you also hear from top military officials that there's no way they can replicate these
23:14types of hostage rescues.
23:17How important is it for you that an end to this war come, that a ceasefire deal be reached?
23:24I can tell you, last Saturday, when we got the news of the four hostages, well, I was
23:30surprised at the feeling that went through my body.
23:34And I was, like the whole country was crying and so emotional and so happy that they came
23:40back.
23:41And then you have these thoughts, what they've been through in the last eight months.
23:45It's unthinkable.
23:47And, of course, we want the war and the ceasefire to happen as fast and as soon as possible.
23:55It helps no one, this war.
23:57Can't put to words the emotions you feel when you walk through this.
24:00You really replicate it that night at the festival.
24:04It's really breathtaking in some of the most horrific ways imaginable.
24:09And finally, you end up here in what you called the healing room.
24:13Why was it important for you to end this tour on a positive note?
24:18It's because this is part of our journey.
24:21And the exhibition is telling our story.
24:24It's from the light to the darkness and then to the light again.
24:28And this is what this healing room is all about.
24:31And the day after, like I mentioned, we opened our healing facility.
24:35And since then, we opened a foundation that is dealing with the survivors, with the families
24:42of the victims.
24:44And this became our purpose in life right now.
24:48And we are doing everything in our power to heal our community.
24:54And this sentence, we will dance again, I promise you that we will dance again.
24:59And we should note the exhibition has now been extended until June 22nd in New York
25:04and is going to Los Angeles next.
25:06Well, we turn to India now, where Prime Minister Narendra Modi is coming to terms with his
25:11shock election result, having lost his majority in Parliament.
25:16Unrivaled for a decade, he's now been forced into a coalition with regional parties who
25:20are opposed to the caste system, a notorious social hierarchy that has for centuries allowed
25:25for rampant discrimination.
25:27Dalits, once known as untouchables, the very lowest and most oppressed, decided Modi had
25:33not done enough to ease their poverty-stricken lives.
25:37To understand just how bad things are for them, we turn to Krishnayan's report from
25:4025 years ago, when the seeds of this political awakening were sown.
25:46And a warning, some of this report is extremely difficult to watch.
25:49Sometimes, the smallest detail can reveal the whole picture.
25:55These untouchable villagers are taking their shoes off, not because they want to, but because
26:01they have to.
26:03They're about to pass their upper caste neighbors, sitting here in the shade.
26:08It's a daily ritual of petty humiliation.
26:12The untouchables can only wear their shoes again when they reach their own part of town.
26:18Why are you guys always taking off your shoes and putting them back on again?
26:22If we don't take our shoes off, we'll be fired from our jobs.
26:27We'd like to stand up to them, but we know we don't have a chance.
26:31Have you ever been punished for anything here?
26:34They've punished us several times.
26:38We have to fall at their feet two or three times.
26:42They have to fall at their feet?
26:46We have to lie on the ground and beg forgiveness.
26:48Oh my goodness.
26:52And the discrimination continues at prayer.
26:56Untouchables aren't allowed to enter the Hindu temple in this village, so the priest blesses
27:01them outside.
27:05In tea houses all over India, untouchables have to drink from separate glasses.
27:13And they have to wait until someone comes to serve them outside.
27:19Even access to clean water is determined according to caste.
27:24Untouchables can't use this public well, because even their touch would pollute the water,
27:29says this upper caste villager.
27:33These customs have been practiced forever.
27:35And if the government passed new laws against it, nothing would change.
27:39And I personally don't believe it should.
27:42This is where Rangamma, an untouchable woman, was forced to get her water, a muddy pond
27:49polluted by animal faeces.
27:52Rangamma's encounter with a pig proves just how dirty this water is.
27:58Did a lot of people get sick from drinking the bad water?
28:00Yes.
28:01And when our children became sick, the doctors blamed us, saying you people are unclean.
28:12After enduring years of this kind of discrimination, Rangamma and her friends took up the fight.
28:18It began with a small act of defiance.
28:21One day, they decided to take clean water from the public well.
28:26But they were stopped by infuriated upper caste villagers.
28:30And even worse, their own husbands were too afraid to support their cause.
28:34All the women in the village, we decided that if our men didn't help us get clean water,
28:41we wouldn't cook for them.
28:42And so, four days later, they joined our fight.
28:47Rangamma and her friends created such an uproar that eventually, the upper caste in this village
28:53were forced to back down.
28:57Now we have clean water, and water is life.
29:11The caste system is as old as the stones that built this temple.
29:21India's segregation is cemented in nearly 3,000 years of religion, not law.
29:28It's one of the most complicated, sophisticated systems of social hierarchy and oppression
29:34that the world has ever, that human beings have ever devised.
29:37Professor Sunil Kilnani teaches politics at the University of London.
29:42He's the author of an acclaimed book on contemporary India and the complex legacy of the caste
29:48system.
29:50It's a system that ranks every Hindu from the highest to the lowest according to the
29:55work they and their caste perform.
29:58Purity is an extremely important facet of religious observance.
30:06For example, the use of fire, which is very common in Hindu rituals, or the use of water.
30:11There's a very strong sense of certain objects, certain things being taboo, that you don't
30:18come into contact with them.
30:21For instance, the dead.
30:23Traditionally, it's the untouchables who prepare the corpses for cremation.
30:28They were those castes who performed the work that no one else in the society would do,
30:33such as dealing with the bodies of the dead, etc.
30:38This was seen as work that somehow was profaning, that was impure.
30:48The untouchables are considered so unclean that traditionally not even their shadows
30:53were supposed to defile these temples, and today they are still relegated to the very
30:58worst that life has to offer.
31:02Like Narayanama, she's been using her bare hands to clean public toilets for the past
31:0819 years.
31:10They look down at me, and it hurts my soul.
31:16Narayanama's family has been assigned this filthy job for generations, and for generations
31:22it's made them physically ill.
31:25In big cities, they may escape the abuses they endured in the small villages, but often
31:30their only choice will be to settle in slums, where no one else would even think of living.
31:37Henry Tiffine is a local human rights worker.
31:40Oh, good lord.
31:42Is this the toilet river?
31:44You see the man walking across it?
31:46He's walking basically through an open sewer.
31:48Open sewer, it's all open sewer.
31:50Kids are playing in this sewer.
31:52That's normal.
31:54That's normal.
31:56That's normal for an untouchable.
31:58And these are the sanitary workers of the town.
32:00The sanitary workers of the town?
32:02What, the people who clean the latrines?
32:04Who clean the latrines, who clean the streets.
32:06Now that, that is truly disgusting, the latrine business.
32:10I mean, how people can accept to clean public toilets with their hands is beyond me.
32:19And increasingly, India's 200 million untouchables are resisting, through the power of the ballot
32:27and political protest.
32:29And it's changing the face of India.
32:31Caste as a form of social imprisonment is beginning to break down, I think.
32:40It's beginning to break down.
32:42People are beginning to assert their rights.
32:44They are beginning to say, well look, constitutionally, this is illegitimate.
32:48These are my rights as an Indian citizen.
32:51They are rights that were enshrined in India's constitution,
32:55which banned discrimination against untouchables.
32:58Progress has been difficult, but now, for the first time in history,
33:03an untouchable has managed, through his own efforts,
33:06to become president of India, though the office is largely symbolic.
33:12But it's the local untouchable leaders, like Dr. Krishna Swamy,
33:17But it's the local untouchable leaders, like Dr. Krishna Swamy,
33:21who are really shaking up the system,
33:23by building a political movement on centuries of pent-up anger.
33:28Is India a democracy for all?
33:30No, it is a fake democracy.
33:33We are fighting for our self-respect.
33:36Some local officials have been killed. Are you not afraid?
33:40There are thousands and thousands of people ready for this fight.
33:45Almost every time untouchables assert their rights,
33:49it provokes violence in the cities,
33:53and especially in the countryside,
33:56where upper-caste landlords still reign over their untouchable labourers.
34:03That's what happened in the village of Bhate one night.
34:08More than 200 upper-caste men, armed with guns and knives,
34:12attacked this village.
34:14They went from hut to hut, killing anyone they could find, even children.
34:19And all these villagers had been asking for was what they considered a fair wage,
34:23one dollar's worth of rice a day, for their work in the fields.
34:28This is what they got for their trouble. Unspeakable horror.
34:33The bodies of 58 villagers haphazardly sprawled where their killers found them.
34:39Whole families were murdered, including Parwati Devi's son and his wife.
34:44Only her grandson survived, hidden in his dead mother's dress.
34:50There was no reason to kill my son. He never argued with anyone.
34:55Like all of us, he just worked in the fields for his daily wage.
35:01A pittance of a wage, paid by the landlords who own these fields,
35:05and who now are accused of leading the slaughter.
35:09Mohan Chaudhary is the upper-caste village priest.
35:15We never start the violence. It's the untouchables who pick the fight.
35:20And the landlords just retaliate.
35:25So in this part of India, untouchables are arming themselves.
35:29Only women are allowed in this militia.
35:33They're being trained to shoot, because they are most at risk.
35:40Nobody else will protect us. That's why I carry my own gun.
35:45Recently, a young girl was kidnapped and raped by the landlords.
35:50There's more violence every day, and the police don't help us.
35:56Sister Sudha is trying to help, but she uses the law.
36:01She's an attorney, and a Catholic nun, who chooses to live with,
36:05and defend the very lowest castes.
36:09When you see untouchables, men or women, cleaning human excrement with their hands,
36:15being forced to drink from separate cups in tea rooms,
36:19having to take off their shoes when they walk past an upper caste,
36:24is there a sense of outrage?
36:27Oh, sure. It's really a curse on humanity, the whole caste system.
36:33Is there any escape?
36:35Impossible.
36:37See, in India, everyone knows his caste.
36:42So no matter how well you do in life,
36:45you will always be considered an untouchable.
36:49Yes.
36:50Unclean.
36:51Yes.
36:52And less than human.
36:53Right.
36:54The untouchables' burden has been carried from generation to generation.
37:00Now, Narayanama, the toilet cleaner, pleads that it not be passed on any further.
37:08All I'm begging for is that my children don't inherit this job.
37:13It should end with me.
37:15It should end with me, an important reflection back there from Christiane.
37:20Well, now, decades later, still fighting for self-respect,
37:23the Dalit vote helped change the fate of India.
37:28Turning to our next story,
37:29how would you feel about reverting back to a lifestyle of the late 18th century?
37:34Well, that's exactly what our next guest, A.J. Jacobs, did,
37:37as he documents in his new book, The Year of Living Constitutionally,
37:41one man's humble quest to follow the Constitution's original meaning.
37:45And he joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss what he learned from his experience.
37:50A.J. Jacobs, thanks so much for joining us.
37:52Your new book is called The Year of Living Constitutionally,
37:56one man's humble quest to follow the Constitution's original meaning.
38:01Why do this?
38:02Why now?
38:04Well, first, thanks for having me and good morrow.
38:07I decided to do this because I wanted to explore what the Constitution actually says
38:15and how should we interpret it.
38:17And as you probably know, in the last couple of years,
38:20the Supreme Court, the conservative majority,
38:22has embraced something called originalism,
38:25which says the most important thing when interpreting the Constitution
38:29is what did it mean when it was written 230 years ago.
38:33Okay, so how does an author get themselves into the mindset
38:36of the writers of the Constitution in the 1700s?
38:40Well, I did everything to express my Second Amendment rights.
38:45I bore a musket around New York City, an 18th century musket,
38:49and I got some strange looks.
38:52Is that legal, by the way?
38:53Wasn't there a law that actually went out to the courts
38:57on whether or not it's legal for you to be carrying a firearm?
39:00It's a gray area.
39:01It's a bit of a gray area.
39:02Yeah, luckily, I wasn't arrested.
39:04In addition to the musket, I wanted to express my First Amendment rights.
39:10So I got off social media and I wrote pamphlets with a quill pen.
39:14So the idea was to go back to the origins
39:17and express my rights the way that they were written,
39:21using the technology and mindset of the Founding Fathers.
39:25And it was fascinating.
39:26It was an entertaining and fascinating year,
39:28but I hope it had some serious points as well.
39:31Tell me, were you kind of a constitutional nerd before this?
39:36Were you trying to kind of lay out and prove a point in the first place?
39:40Well, I was actually embarrassingly ignorant of the Constitution.
39:46I learned that 60% of Americans have never read the Constitution
39:51from start to finish, and I was one of those 60%.
39:55But it has such a massive impact on how we live our lives
40:00with the Supreme Court ruling on women's rights and gay rights and gun policy.
40:07I thought, I need to understand this Constitution.
40:11So I talked to dozens of actual constitutional nerds
40:15and law scholars from all over the political spectrum,
40:19but I also wanted to live it.
40:21That's what I did for a previous book that you and I talked about
40:25a long time ago called The Year of Living Biblically.
40:28I find that walking the walk and talking the talk
40:31and wearing the tricorn hat and eating the mutton
40:34really helps me to understand and get in the mindset.
40:37So that was part of the goal as well.
40:40Okay, so what were, I guess, the parts of the Constitution
40:44that leapt out at you in terms of how much they have changed
40:51in how we live with them today versus how the authors
40:56intended them to be at the time?
40:59Such a great question, and that's sort of the heart of the book.
41:02And it was a shockingly different time.
41:05The past is a foreign country.
41:07And I'll give you just two quick examples,
41:09the First and the Second Amendment.
41:11So the First Amendment back then was much more constrained.
41:15I love the First Amendment. Free speech, I'm a big fan.
41:18But I'm a fan of modern free speech.
41:21Back at the founding, it wasn't quite Stalinist Russia,
41:25but there were laws against obscenity, against blasphemy.
41:30Sedition was much more cracked down upon.
41:33And we don't want to go back to that original meaning
41:37of the First Amendment, neither conservatives nor progressives,
41:41because the First Amendment would not allow
41:43for political contributions,
41:45unlimited political contributions to candidates.
41:48So that's an example of one that's very different.
41:51And the Second Amendment, the technology was so vastly different.
41:55I mean, I went and I shot a musket,
41:58and it is 15 steps to shoot a musket.
42:01It is, you got to take out the ramrod, pour in the gunpowder,
42:05put back the ramrod.
42:07It's like building a desk from IKEA.
42:10It takes a while.
42:12So it is a vastly different machine.
42:14And the question is, should there be regulations
42:17that are different because it is so different?
42:20And it's not something...
42:22A musket would be very hard to do a mass shooting with a musket
42:26because it takes so long to load.
42:28You know, this idea of updating with the times,
42:31we see that tension being played out pretty much every time
42:35there's a verdict from the Supreme Court.
42:37We have people arguing on the losing side,
42:40this is not what the Constitution was for.
42:42Right, and it continues to be at the heart of the controversy.
42:48And the question is, how much should you update?
42:52Even originalists would say, for instance,
42:55that the rule against unreasonable searches and seizures,
43:01originally that meant the constable banging down the door
43:04to search your papers.
43:06But now they say, yes, it does apply to the internet and iPhones.
43:10But it's inconsistent.
43:13When do you update and when do you not?
43:15So a hardcore originalist like Clarence Thomas would say
43:19that the 14th Amendment,
43:21which guarantees equal protection and due process,
43:24when that was written after the Civil War,
43:26it did not apply to gay people or gay marriage.
43:29So he would argue that does not cover the constitutional right.
43:33Whereas those who are on the other side,
43:35often called living constitutionalists or pragmatists,
43:39would say, no, you have to update the morals as well.
43:43With the times, the morals change
43:46and gay people should be protected by the 14th Amendment.
43:50One of the concerns that you have with the side that says,
43:53go ahead and interpret this document and keep evolving it,
43:56is where does that slide stop?
44:00The experts that you've spoken to,
44:02how do they figure out how to modify that level of change
44:08so it's still consistent to what should be the values of our country?
44:12Right. That is a huge issue and a tough one.
44:16And I don't have a simple answer.
44:19One idea is that the founders would be shocked
44:24that these Supreme Court justices have so much power.
44:28That was not their vision.
44:30Most of them, they thought that the Supreme Court
44:32should weigh in on judicial review,
44:35but not what's called judicial supremacy,
44:38where they have the final word.
44:40In the past, the president and Congress
44:44would also weigh in on what is constitutional.
44:47So in that case, you wouldn't have this extreme power
44:52with just these nine unelected justices.
44:55And I like that.
44:57Another issue is that it's so hard to change the Constitution.
45:03The founders did not anticipate it would be this hard to change.
45:07They wanted it hard to change,
45:09but they didn't see this static two-party system coming
45:13when it is impossible to get 60% or 66% of the Congress
45:18to agree on the color of the sky.
45:20The key is pluralism, which is a very Founding Fathers idea.
45:25So you balance the original meaning with the consequences,
45:29with the legitimacy of the Supreme Court and their reputation.
45:33You have all these factors when you make a decision.
45:37One of the things that you did in your constitutional year of life,
45:41you've exercised your right to redress, to petition.
45:45What were you petitioning for?
45:47Well, this was interesting, yes.
45:49Petitions, first of all, First Amendment right,
45:51they're often overlooked.
45:53And I thought I need to do it the old way.
45:55I'm not going to do it the slacktivism way on the Internet.
45:59So I got out a big roll of paper
46:03and had people sign with a quill pen.
46:06Now, my petition was because I'm concerned about the president.
46:11Both Democrat and Republican presidents have way too much power.
46:15The founders would be shocked by the war powers and trade powers.
46:19So I went back to an idea from the Founding Fathers
46:23during the Constitutional Convention.
46:26When someone brought up the idea of a single president,
46:29several of the delegates said,
46:31Are you jesting? That's a terrible idea.
46:34We just fought to get rid of a king.
46:36Why would we want a single president?
46:38Let's have three presidents, three co-presidents.
46:40Let's have 12 presidents.
46:42Ben Franklin wanted a council of 12 presidents.
46:45And I thought this is an interesting idea.
46:47So I brought a petition to Congress,
46:50to Senator Ron Wyden in Washington.
46:53I was wearing my tricorn hat, my regimental coat,
46:56buckled shoes, the whole thing.
46:58But he said he would consider it,
47:00which I think he meant he would consider it for five seconds.
47:03But he did agree with my general thesis,
47:06which is the president is too powerful.
47:09And we have in the future possible presidents
47:14who are going to be more authoritarian.
47:16So we do need to constrain the president.
47:19I don't actually think three presidents.
47:22I don't know if Biden, Trump, and RFK Jr.
47:25co-working in the Oval Office is a great idea.
47:28But there are ways to constrain the president
47:30that we need to look into
47:32and give power back to the Congress,
47:34which is what the founders wanted.
47:36You know, you did take a couple of opportunities here
47:40to try and make this exploration a little positive and fun.
47:45Tell us about election cakes.
47:48Well, this was my favorite part of the book.
47:50And it's a through line of the book.
47:52We don't want to go back to the 18th century voting, of course.
47:56It was sexist and racist.
47:59But there are elements of 18th century life
48:02that are worth looking at again.
48:04And one of them is the idea that elections
48:07for the privileged few who were allowed to vote were festive.
48:11They were this new right that was awe-inspiring.
48:15So there were parades, there was music,
48:19there was a lot of rum punch.
48:21It wasn't quite Coachella or Burning Man,
48:24but it was exciting this election day.
48:26And it reminded people of the awesome power of democracy.
48:31So I thought, this is lovely.
48:34Let's try to restart this appreciation of election day
48:40as something festive.
48:41And one of the traditions was election cake.
48:44People would bake election cakes, sometimes huge.
48:47One recipe calls for 14 pounds of butter
48:51and 10 pounds of sugar.
48:52So I didn't do that, but I made a big election cake
48:55and I went on Facebook, which I know is not 18th century,
48:59although it is one of the older platforms,
49:01and I got people from all over America
49:05to bake election cakes and bring them to the polls
49:09and give them out to remind people,
49:11our catchphrase was, democracy is sweet.
49:14And I love that because it's such an unrelentingly negative time
49:19in politics to have this one positive moment.
49:22And there is evidence,
49:24there are studies that say having a festive election day
49:28increases voter turnout.
49:31Australia has something called the democracy sausage
49:35where they have big barbecues.
49:37So I love the election cake.
49:41It's not the end.
49:42We also have to fix gerrymandering
49:45and voter suppression.
49:48But let's start with election cakes
49:51and get people excited again about the right to vote.
49:54And I'm doing it again in November.
49:56What did this project teach you about yourself?
49:59Especially, we have had so many different conversations
50:02on this program about digital detoxing and slowing down.
50:06And I imagine that has to do something to your brain
50:10when you are writing in such a slow format
50:13with a quill and ink.
50:15Exactly, that was one of my favorite parts
50:17is I wrote much of the book with a quill.
50:20And what I found is it changed the way I thought,
50:25which was fascinating because there were no pings and dings
50:29or temptations from the internet.
50:32And I could actually focus.
50:35And I think that,
50:38I don't think everyone needs to go back to quills,
50:41but I think writing and thinking offline is so crucial.
50:45And it allowed me to, I think,
50:48see the world in a more subtle way.
50:51And one of the big, the other big takeaway for me
50:55was that it allowed me to see the other side a little more.
51:01I think we are nowadays so stuck in our opinions,
51:06so intransigent and unwilling to look at the evidence
51:10and see the other side.
51:13And this is not a patriotic way of looking at the world.
51:17The founders were very cognitively flexible.
51:21Ben Franklin said that the older he gets,
51:24the less certain he is of his opinions.
51:26And what's the ripple effect on the people around you,
51:30your family that has to live with a guy who's,
51:34I don't know, writing with a quill and doing things
51:37by candlelight and waking up early in the morning,
51:39trying to be back in the 1700s.
51:41So how do your kids feel about that?
51:43They are split.
51:46One of them actually likes it.
51:48The other two are so embarrassed.
51:50They walk 40 feet in front of me.
51:52My wife, parts of it she likes.
51:55She loves history.
51:56She did not like the smell of beef tallow candles,
52:00which smelled like rotten meatloaf, in her opinion.
52:03Also, there are some very awkward,
52:06if you're following 18th century law, it's very sexist.
52:09So married women, for instance,
52:11were not allowed to sign contracts.
52:13And my wife owns an event business
52:15where she signs several contracts a day.
52:17And I said, well, while I'm doing this experiment,
52:20maybe I should take over the sign.
52:22At first she said, great, I hate signing these contracts.
52:25I was so bad at it, she fired me after an hour.
52:29So that did not work out for either of us.
52:32You point out that this is the oldest constitution
52:35that's around.
52:36So I wonder what should we be thinking about
52:39in terms of, I guess, just surveying the landscape
52:43and seeing what's out there, what could be better,
52:47what we do right, what could we improve on 2.0, 3.0?
52:51Right, well, I love that.
52:53And I think it's fascinating
52:55because ours was the first modern constitution
52:59and we didn't have a lot of data of what works and what doesn't.
53:03And I think some Americans think
53:07that it's almost unpatriotic to look at other democracies
53:10and how they have structured it
53:12and what works for them and what doesn't.
53:14Others like Justice Breyer, who retired,
53:16he was very interested in how foreign democracies worked.
53:21And I think I agree with Justice Breyer.
53:25Let's look at what is working and what is not.
53:28One thing that I don't think is working for us
53:30is the two-party system.
53:33And I don't think the founders wanted a two-party system,
53:36but you look at many European democracies
53:39and they have six or eight parties.
53:41There seems to be a Goldilocks zone of about,
53:44I think it's about four to eight parties is the best,
53:47because, yes, now we have such polarization
53:51that it's so hard to get anything passed.
53:54We were the first and we can be proud of that,
53:56but we also were at a disadvantage
53:58because we didn't know,
54:00we didn't have data on what works and what doesn't.
54:02Are you concerned for our democracy in 2024 today,
54:08as we're having this conversation,
54:10after you have engaged in this year-long experiment
54:14of living constitutionally?
54:16Well, yes, but I'm more optimistic than I was when I started.
54:20Part of the whole project was to figure out,
54:24can we save democracy?
54:26Because it does seem endangered around the world.
54:29And several things gave me hope.
54:31I'll just give you two of them.
54:32One is, just reading about the history,
54:35the founders faced unbelievable odds
54:39that they were going against the strongest army in the world,
54:42the British,
54:43and that they somehow were able to make a break
54:47and be independent.
54:49That's astounding.
54:50So we have terrible odds against us now, huge problems,
54:53but they're not insurmountable.
54:56The second part is that we have made progress.
54:59If you look at the constitution itself,
55:01you can see the progress in the amendments.
55:05So Black people got the vote.
55:08Women got the vote.
55:09Indigenous people got the vote.
55:1118-year-olds got the vote.
55:12So we are, the arc does point towards justice,
55:16and there is backsliding and there's,
55:19it's not a straight line,
55:21but I do believe that if we roll up our sleeves,
55:25democracy won't save itself,
55:27but I do believe if we roll up our sleeves
55:29and make some of these reforms,
55:30that democracy can continue to thrive.
55:34A.J. Jacobs, thanks so much for joining us.
55:36Thank you, it was a delight.
55:38And that is it for now.
55:39Thank you so much for watching,
55:40and goodbye from New York.