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00:00Well, for more on the story, I'm joined here in the studio by Richard Verly, a Franco-Swiss
00:05journalist, correspondent for the Swiss Daily BNIC.
00:07Richard, thanks so much for being with us.
00:10Prior to the invasion of Ukraine, it seemed like Europe thought it had seen the end of
00:13ground wars.
00:14How much has the Russian invasion really changed the security landscape here on the continent?
00:18Well, it has changed everything, I would say.
00:21It has changed the perception, first of all, and that is true for Switzerland as well.
00:27that war is again on European territory and war is possible.
00:32And again, it's valid also for Switzerland.
00:33So perception is very important.
00:35And then it has changed clearly the game in terms of military budget, military expenses,
00:42because all governments now know they need to purchase new material, missiles, tanks,
00:48whatsoever to defend themselves against a possible threat.
00:51And that is true also for Switzerland, a country that is known for being very much
00:55armed with a very prominent defense force.
00:58But still, you need to purchase more advanced weapons.
01:02And when it comes to purchasing more weapons, you need to cooperate, because there is this
01:06organization, NATO, this military alliance, and if you are a European Western democracy,
01:12you just cannot avoid it.
01:13How significant do you think this potential policy shift is for Swiss politics itself?
01:21Do you think that the recommendations will be adopted and what will it mean for domestic
01:24politics there?
01:25I doubt that in the coming month, I would say on short term, Switzerland will make a
01:31significant move towards NATO and especially towards NATO membership.
01:36It is still out of sight, but concretely speaking, Switzerland realized that it needs to partner
01:44more with NATO and especially NATO countries.
01:47It needs kind of a protection, a buffer.
01:51So I don't see Switzerland leaving its neutrality status, because that status gives Switzerland
01:57a certain role in the world today.
01:59But I clearly see the country inclining more to a Western approach of security against
02:06possible threat.
02:07Now, I read a survey earlier this year showing more than 90% of the Swiss population in fact
02:14approve of maintaining neutrality.
02:17How do you think the latest news is likely to go over with public opinion there?
02:20How do they feel about the war?
02:21Well, it looks like a contradiction, and I can understand, viewed from outside of Switzerland.
02:27But when you are in Switzerland, you've got to realize that people do have a kind of cultural
02:35route into neutrality.
02:36They want the country to remain neutral on the one hand.
02:40And there is even a popular initiative, a referendum coming on to reaffirm Switzerland
02:46neutrality and to put it in the constitution, because it's not completely written in the
02:51constitution.
02:52That is on the one hand.
02:54But on the other hand, people do realize what I said.
02:57They do realize that Switzerland is not an island, that Switzerland is not protected
03:01by its mountain like it was the case before, because the Alps, the mountain, do not protect
03:06you against drones, do not protect you against cyber threat, and so on.
03:11So they realize that you need more cooperation.
03:13So what I see is a kind of step further to the side of NATO, like these small fishes
03:20by the well.
03:21They go alongside the well.
03:22That is, I believe, how Switzerland is seeing itself, going alongside NATO without being
03:28a member.
03:29Now, you mentioned this earlier, that Switzerland actually has a very well-developed arms industry,
03:34for one thing.
03:36How well-equipped is the country to join an alliance like this?
03:42How ready is it on its own already?
03:44How feasible would it be to even abandon neutrality?
03:46Well, you know, there is a joke in Switzerland.
03:48We have the most powerful army per capita, but we did not fight a battle for six centuries
03:55ago.
03:56So this is an army made for peace.
03:59This is an army tailored to be a buffer rather than a fighting army.
04:06Now the question is, you have to take the possibility of a fight into consideration.
04:10You cannot avoid it.
04:12So what I think is needed is to review the needs of the Swiss army in terms of air defense,
04:17patriot missiles.
04:18Switzerland has ordered more patriot missile defense to the U.S.
04:24Jets.
04:25Switzerland has recently ordered about 30 jets from the U.S. as well.
04:30And all the kind of especially sophisticated equipment that you need to defend a modern
04:36country.
04:37So I would say, yes, Switzerland is still a country in arms.
04:40You know that every citizen goes to the army one time per year until the age of 35.
04:47So it will remain, but the reality is that you have to move to some kind of professional
04:54army within the army, more professional unit within the army.
04:59And a last thing, as far as defense industry is concerned, to have a defense industry,
05:03you also need clients.
05:05Because Switzerland industry cannot rely only on Swiss army orders.
05:10And if you want clients, you have to sell your equipment to your neighboring countries.
05:14And your neighboring countries want you maybe to remain neutral, but to be alongside them,
05:20not to oppose what they are doing in Ukraine.
05:22Indeed, Switzerland has in fact, it seems if I'm correct, correct me if I'm wrong, but
05:27it has in fact opposed the transfer of weapons that it has sold to its neighbors to be then
05:32sent on to Ukraine.
05:33Do you think that policy will be changing?
05:36I don't think it will change, but it is clearly affecting the defense industry.
05:42Because what we are seeing is the German group Rheinmetall, who has some factory and some
05:47production unit in Switzerland, is moving them from Switzerland to other country like
05:52to Germany or Poland.
05:53Why?
05:54Precisely to avoid what you just said.
05:56So Switzerland has clearly to redefine its contract with its neighboring allies, maybe
06:03not allowing export of arms, but probably as far as component or part of arms, I think
06:10things will change.