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00:00How did a 22-year-old from Dibrugarh, Assam, and his partner manage to rip off Rs 2,200
00:13crore from investors and get away with it for three years?
00:18The answer in one word is greed.
00:22Shocking details are emerging now on how over 600 investors were duped into parting with
00:28their money.
00:29First, let's meet the masterminds.
00:3222-year-old Bishal Phukan, who calls himself an industrialist, and he is the key mastermind
00:40of the scam hailing from Dibrugarh.
00:43Bishal led a flashy, luxurious lifestyle and was well-networked with the Assamese film
00:48industry.
00:49The second partner, of course, is Swapnaneel Das, also known as the entrepreneur.
00:56He claimed to be the CEO of an online broking platform called Trader.Sapnaneel.
01:03He even ran a training centre in Guwahati teaching people how to trade online.
01:09Now here is how they actually lured people, the modus operandi.
01:14It starts with a promise of giving 30% return on investments within 60 days.
01:20Like every Ponzi scheme, investors got some of their money back with 30-50% gains.
01:26Once they had some confidence in this scheme, they were asked for more money.
01:31Some investors even took out loans of 10-15 lakh rupees to invest in the app that the
01:36two masterminds floated.
01:38To lure investors, Phukan and Das then started putting out social media posts of their lavish
01:44lifestyles, pictures from foreign locations, and rides in high-end cars.
01:50Enough people believed they were making money and wanted to ride on the same gravy train.
01:56The scam got exposed only when some investors finally filed complaints a year after the
02:0160-day deadline had passed.
02:03The entire investigation blew the lid of a scam that has seen at least 38 arrests so
02:08far and the state CID now taking charge.
02:20Police sources have told NDTV that in Guwahati city alone, there were at least 600 financial
02:47fraud cases registered in the past one year that are linked to online frauds and stock
02:53trading scams.
02:55But this isn't just a story about Assam.
03:00The fact is that these kind of scams are a symptom of a bull run.
03:05As markets zoom, so do the number of scamsters out there.
03:09In fact, SEBI has been working to curb some of this menace, whether it is by barring telegram
03:15channels or tightening the screws on unscrupulous finfluencers.
03:19In fact, let's go across to my colleague Charu, who has more on this.
03:23Yes, Tamanna, so as we talk about the financial or investment related frauds that take place
03:31because of online entities and online entities showing a flamboyant lifestyle and saying
03:37that they are going to double the returns that are invested in their schemes and dupe
03:43people out of their money.
03:44In such cases, the Security and Exchange Board of India, the market regulator, has already
03:48come up with a lot of advisories and consultation papers and regulations as well.
03:53As we all know, for a very long time, SEBI was coming down very heavily on the financial
03:58influencers, also known as the finfluencers, who give financial advice without being registered
04:04as an advisor.
04:05So SEBI had earlier proposed some draft regulations and then tweaked its own rules to add some
04:12provisions to tackle issues related to them and had said that none of the regulated entities
04:17or their agents are allowed to mingle with these finfluencers or these advisors who are
04:22not registered in any capacity whatsoever.
04:25However, these financial frauds are not just limited to the posts and flamboyant lifestyle
04:33and false promises shown online by finfluencers.
04:38These are also related to SME stocks, the small and medium enterprises and stocks which
04:44show that their operations are going very lucratively and very positively.
04:48However, in reality, the picture is completely different, which again leads to a lot of losses
04:53to the people who have invested in them because after showing a very flamboyant picture, what
04:58happens here is that their holders offload their holdings and then it leads to losses
05:05subsequently to the people who have invested.
05:07So SEBI has time and again said not to trust online posts, not to believe anything that
05:14comes on the internet or belief influencers or social media posts.
05:18However, this is something which keeps on happening in different arenas in the market
05:24almost too frequently.
05:27I'm now joined by Sunil Subramaniam, market veteran and Chitij Mahajan, managing partner
05:32and CEO of Complete Circle Wealth.
05:34The reason I've got both of you in and welcome to this special show, Sunil and Chitij, is
05:39because I truly believe this is not about some vulnerable people who don't understand
05:45what's going on and are not financially savvy.
05:47There are more than enough people right now who are constantly hunting for stock tips
05:54and ideas and promises of quick money.
05:57First, let me come to Sunil Subramaniam.
06:00How do you see this entire case and do you think it's symbolic of what we're seeing in
06:06the market right now?
06:07We see this in every bull run, don't we?
06:11I'm not sure that you can entirely correlate this to bull run.
06:14This I would correlate it to get rich quick syndrome.
06:19People want to, you know, there's no bull run in the market.
06:22You see people in other scams who say I'll double your money in X number of days and
06:27people lend them money.
06:28There are people who promise 30-40% return, they jump in.
06:31So Ponzi schemes, which though it originated, I think, probably somewhere in Italy, right?
06:36The name Ponzi actually refers to this and it's very simple.
06:40It's a link to the gambling instinct of the Aam Aadmi, right?
06:46You take whether it's Teen Patti on Diwali night, you take whether it's the horse racing,
06:50you take the kind of numbers that Dream 11 on those kind of a...
06:54Sunil, I agree.
06:55I agree.
06:56But the only place I would differentiate is, you're right, Ponzi schemes in India are as
07:01old as, you know, perhaps as old as the nation is.
07:06But this time around, the Ponzi schemes are riding on what is happening in the markets.
07:12So people are being told, invest in my app, I will invest in stocks and give you this
07:18kind of return.
07:20And they're believing it.
07:21They're believing you can get 30% in two months because there are stocks that have run up
07:24that much.
07:25So that's the only distinction I would make.
07:27Why this time around it's different and it has to do with the bull market.
07:30Yes, I think that's the mechanics.
07:33The fact that there's a bull market and stock prices have actually doubled similarly is
07:37making it easy to sell.
07:38But I'm saying it's nothing to the people that are absolutely ignorant of the stock
07:42markets.
07:43All they want is they want to get rich quick.
07:45See, that gambling instinct, right, is inherent.
07:49And that's why you see the F&Os, what's happening in the F&O trading, 90% of people have lost
07:53their money.
07:54You take into margin trading that people are borrowing money, personal loans, and investing
07:59it on the pen influence-based.
08:00It's a larger malaise.
08:02And these people have found a gullible way.
08:05And that's where your bull market comes in.
08:06Because the very gullible of saying that actually, there are people making this money, here is
08:10my path to do it, and I'll do it.
08:12And what they do is they return the capital, take X person's capital, pay it back to Y,
08:18so that that comes as a return to this guy.
08:20And then they go to Z and take his money and give back.
08:22So it lasts for a few months, while you keep giving back one person's money to another.
08:27But ultimately, it catches up with you, right?
08:29But ultimately, it's a gullibility of the people, plus the fact that the bull market
08:34is showing to normal people, ki aisa kuch ho sakta hai.
08:39So it's like, basically, you know, saying, why not I put my money in gamble and do it?
08:43The problem is people are borrowing money to do it, problem is people are putting their
08:46life savings into it, and that's a larger malaise.
08:49If somebody is putting 5% of their money into a gambling kind of a thing, I mean, that's
08:54his risk-based decision that he takes.
08:56So I think it's a larger malaise.
08:59This is even worse.
09:01People have borrowed from the bank, people have taken loans of 10 to 15 lakhs to put
09:07it in this app.
09:08Shruthi Mahajan, you know, my question is, of course, now, we've diagnosed the problem,
09:12this is on one hand greed, and I would say also seeing enough evidence, it's easy to
09:18fool people right now.
09:19You post enough pictures, you have enough people coming and saying, hey, I made money
09:22in this scheme.
09:23I don't have people who will believe.
09:25Unfair to call them all gullible, because it's easy to fool anyone right now on social
09:29media.
09:30My point is that how is this going to be controlled?
09:33You have the Assam Chief Minister saying, okay, I've got the CID looking into this,
09:37but that's one state, one case.
09:39What about everything else that's happening?
09:42Shruti Mahajan, I think the way you presented the entire story, it's made things much easier.
09:48But you know, one is there are these financial influencers, there are a few goons, there
09:53are a few people with that mindset that they want to fool people.
09:56But you need to understand that there are a set of people who are ready to believe it
10:00also.
10:01So I think education is the only way and my only worry is last four years in an organized
10:07structure, equity market is also misleading.
10:09If you ask me, everybody's asking for, I was doing a review for a client portfolio.
10:14He's saying this is 23 or 24% only, why can't we look at something which is giving 30%?
10:20So imagine that we have changed the benchmarks also.
10:25So I think what you are saying, if you ask me, I think the three things which one should
10:30do.
10:31First thing, we should spread the right word and which I think your channel has done a
10:37lot number of times, more people will come into the foray and they have to spread a right
10:41word that, you know, you need to understand the bonding happens over a period of time.
10:46This is not, you know, this is not a magic wand where you invest and start looking at
10:51your returns.
10:52Second, just go through organized channels, go through organized channel and let's say
10:57Assam chief minister has done something, something has to be done centrally, very strict.
11:01These things will happen again and we'll be talking about these things in future also.
11:04But then you have to, you need to have an education going right in the mind of people.
11:08These are the same people, the money you'll be surprised.
11:10They would have never invested in equity market before this.
11:13They've been on the fixed deposit side, but somebody has walked up to them, said that
11:16there is a 50% return, 60% return and that guy has 10 lakh followers.
11:20That's why everybody was lewd to that guy.
11:23And this is something which is, which we need to put across that country like us getting
11:27five, 10 lakh followers is not a big thing.
11:29We are 140 crore.
11:30We are 140 crore.
11:31It's not a big thing.
11:32But then there's a lot of education.
11:33And you can buy followers, you can buy followers.
11:37You can buy followers and you really don't have to visit different countries.
11:42You can just have the pictures in there, which shows that you are visiting all these countries
11:46and making a pool of, so we need to understand that people, they don't take risks when markets
11:51are good.
11:52And I agree with you.
11:53When market is this, they don't want to put in market.
11:55They want to put in a cash class, which is giving 30% in two months.
11:59So why these businesses are running so many big companies who are working day in and day
12:03out generating 17, 18% earning growth with so much Maramari.
12:06And now we are expecting that we should get these type of returns.
12:09I think a lot more to be done on the education side for people, a lot more to be done on
12:13the, on the, uh, uh, you know, on curbing or let's say on putting strict restriction
12:18on this financial influencer, how they can operate, like what government has done on
12:22the lending side of many of the online platforms.
12:25They have to do something about this because right now everything is looking good.
12:28Very few of the people are doing the right job also, but I know a lot of platforms on
12:32a telegram and many other channel stations, which are not regularized, but they have followers
12:38because they're giving some X, Y, Z tips and which is creating a lot of problems for people.
12:42Yeah.
12:43So this, this, this point about social media as the new weapon and you know, Sunil Subramaniam,
12:49you are a veteran of this market, so you must've seen many versions of the same scam, but this
12:57time round, you have a megaphone.
13:01Any scamster has a megaphone called social media and the ability to make the message
13:06sound very, very sweet.
13:08Now, how does someone distinguish, you know, there, there are, I would say very experienced
13:13investors who've also gotten sucked into this.
13:15It's not that everyone who gets sucked in is a fool.
13:19So I think the, the, partly with what he said, I think in addition to the financial literacy
13:25education, I think government has to weaponize social media, see government by ignoring the
13:30social media and allowing it to be a playground.
13:32I think government has to actively, SEBI, RBI, everybody must actively post on social
13:38media, you know, to counter this.
13:41And they have to parade these people in public, the punishment has to be severe, they are,
13:46they are like, you know, in the old days, they used to put up these outlaws posters
13:49in the wild west on every police station and every post office, like that in every social
13:54media, you should not be able to access without saying, do you know this fraudster, do you
13:58know this fraudster?
13:59I think you have to weaponize, you have to use social media aggressively as a weapon,
14:03you can't ignore it.
14:04I mean, you banned one TikTok, China has banned WhatsApp, you shouldn't go down the drain
14:08of saying, ban all social media.
14:10So I think government should shut up, I mean, SEBI has a very good artificial intelligence
14:14engine working with lots of high quality engineers, I think you should use also that they put
14:19up their own social media link website, they actively post and that should be used to publicize
14:26all of these fraudsters, right, give them public, inundate them with, the only way is
14:31to hit them with that.
14:32So you can't, you know, hide away from it, you got to join it, and you have to control
14:37it by joining it.
14:39So I think the IT department of the government, SEBI, RBI, all of them, I think you have to
14:44use social media to counter this, that's the only way forward.
14:47Because that's the only medium through which these people are communicating, and unless
14:52you're communicating in the same medium, you're going to lose the battle, right, that's one.
14:56Second is, Damana also wanted to say is that, see, we have this huge army of distributors,
15:02right, mutual fund distributors, who exist and are part of this advisor-distributor
15:07community, but they are the ones whose clients, brother, sister, father, mother is going
15:13into this scam.
15:15So I think that we have to use them also as powerful influencers to keep guiding, because
15:20see, under that, while social media exists, the personal touch, the trust to tell them
15:25this is what your beta has done, this is what company has done, do that, they have to use
15:28them also as a very powerful guiding force.
15:30No, no, but just to the point of that, Sunil, you know, I guess that this conversation would
15:35come around to the question of, okay, when put money in mutual funds, you're safer off,
15:39you know, you won't be cheated, etc., etc., and then the distributors also come in.
15:44The reason that people want to invest themselves is they feel that they can be more nimble,
15:48they can make more money, they don't have to pay any fees to the distributor and then
15:52the mutual fund, etc.
15:54And that is also a valid question in people's minds, if I have an option, why shouldn't
15:59I take it?
16:02See, there's so much hype about these fees and this and that, I'm telling you, the maximum
16:06fees anybody can pay is one, one and a half percent, you're talking about 30%, 60%.
16:10Yeah, but you see the returns, now people, look at how this is being sold.
16:14If you invest directly, you can make massive returns, versus you look at what the mutual
16:20fund returns are also very good, but, you know, they're languishing in front of the
16:24returns which are being promised.
16:25That is the challenge.
16:28See, but I'm telling you, you're shying away from the word gullibility.
16:32I think Siddhi is also referred to it.
16:34See, we are talking about the people who are exploiting the gullibility.
16:38If you start addressing the gullibility, such people will keep coming up.
16:43So you have to address the thing at the bottom of the thing that people have to be told that
16:48there is no get rich quick scheme.
16:51You plant a seed, water it, it grows into a tree, then gives you fruits for you to eat.
16:57That has to be told and you have to start young, by the way, in schools, unfortunately,
17:01there is no financial related literacy or planning related education at all.
17:06You've got to get these minds when they're young and influence them.
17:09It's a larger thing on which the country needs to invest a huge amount of money.
17:14Especially, remember, why are people like this?
17:17Because we are an agrarian economy, which is dependent on the bakeries of the monsoon.
17:21We are a nation which has been repeatedly invaded by various types of foreigners.
17:25And we are the persons who don't have a social security scheme for the government
17:29to take care of our future.
17:31So everybody is worried, worried, worried.
17:33And so when such a tempting scheme comes, and like I said, before the foreign bull market,
17:38there were companies in Chennai and all I know,
17:40which were promising similar returns without having a bull market.
17:44There's one company called Ramesh Kaur's used cars finance,
17:47which was promising obscene returns.
17:49And people went and gave hundreds of, I think it was crores of money to them.
17:53So ultimately, I think, Sitesh, I agree fully,
17:57this problem cannot be wished away without educating people
18:01that money will grow consistently, but slowly.
18:06There is no such thing as get rich quick overnight.
18:09Money will grow slowly and definitely not on trees.
18:12Sitesh wanted to come in. Yes, Sitesh.
18:14I was saying on a lighter note, we don't even recommend defence funds to clients.
18:19We are talking about defensive portfolios when markets are all time high.
18:23I'm saying look at the difference.
18:25And I don't mind that where people are looking at a better set of returns.
18:28But we need to understand that when they're talking about better set of returns
18:33or some numbers, they need to understand with whom they are contacting.
18:37It's not because some star is born and that's why you just go along with that star
18:41because he or she is going to do the right thing.
18:43Point comes that that's a problem.
18:46In this country, you have 11 crore crypto users.
18:48You have 15 crore people on DreamIPL.
18:50And irrespective of whatever we are saying, mutual funds are right.
18:53We have only 4 crore 40 lakh unique users.
18:56You'd be surprised at this.
18:58We have 10 crore unique Demat account holders
19:00because still people feel that while investing into stock,
19:03you can double your money much faster.
19:05But you'd be surprised, Samarna, there are 11 mutual funds
19:08whose NAB is more than 1000.
19:10That means there are 11 hundred bagger mutual funds present in the country
19:14where the history of the mutual fund is not more than 28-30 years old.
19:17So from where I'm coming, what I'm trying to tell you here is that
19:20we need to have a better set of education system coming our way.
19:24What I said and what Sunil sir has said, I don't echo that.
19:26Whether it's an optional subject, but it should be there on the education side.
19:31Because people need to understand that you can't just create money
19:34like the way people are promising each other.
19:39You can't just create money.
19:41You need to understand how money works, how money grows.
19:44Some clients are asking about making some money double in,
19:49let's say, one year's time.
19:51The current frenzy of IPOs are there.
19:53You can make that.
19:54But you and I are part of this entire investment journey for the last 15-20 years.
19:59We understand how it works.
20:01In many of the shows with you and Neeraj,
20:03I keep on saying maybe 13-14% compounding is what we can expect on the portfolio.
20:07And here we are talking about 30% in two months.
20:10So I think it's a little scary.
20:12You spoke about DMAT accounts and some data which has come out
20:17and I just want to tell our viewers about it.
20:18So in just in August, 42.3 lakh new DMAT accounts were opened.
20:26The total number of DMAT accounts in India now has crossed 17 crores.
20:30So this is a record.
20:32We're at an all-time high.
20:34Now look at this.
20:36Just the number of DMAT account holders in India exceeds the population
20:40of the nations of Russia, Mexico and Japan.
20:42So now are you telling me
20:44that all of these 17 crore DMAT account holders know everything about investing?
20:51That they have come into this market and opened a DMAT account
20:55with the kind of financial literacy that we're talking about here
20:58and some social media posts from SEBI etc. are going to help it.
21:02Let's get realistic.
21:04I'm going to come to Sunil Subramaniam on this.
21:06So SEBI bans some influencers, shuts some telegram accounts.
21:09Sunil, it's like a Hydra-headed monster.
21:11You shut 5, 10 are going to open.
21:13No, I know.
21:15But Tamannaah, can I request one thing?
21:17Can you stop using the word investing, investing, listing, repeating?
21:20This is speculation.
21:22Let's differentiate between investing and speculation.
21:25This is absolute speculation.
21:27They have no investment thoughts in their mind.
21:29They are speculators.
21:31Secondly, they are gamblers.
21:33Now the point is that you mentioned that
21:35we can't use social media to make money.
21:36I'm saying, how do you get through to these people?
21:39They are only on social media.
21:41See, I'll tell you, all this started with COVID.
21:43You take any of this data pre-COVID.
21:45What did they do with COVID?
21:47COVID, everybody, one, they had idle time at home.
21:50They had to work from home.
21:52They got money and they had lots of time.
21:54They opened.
21:56They started using the stock market like a satta bazaar
21:58and they started trading.
22:00But okay, just one quick counter, Sunil.
22:02We are also happy.
22:03We say, look at the depth of the domestic market.
22:05We don't care if foreign investors are coming.
22:07DII figure is like pushing us along.
22:09There's the flip side of it as well.
22:11But that's DII,
22:13which means there is a mutual fund
22:15or insurance or pension funds,
22:17not your Demat account, guys.
22:19Just to add to what Sunil sir is saying,
22:21just to add to what Sunil sir is saying,
22:23just to add to what Sunil sir is saying,
22:2580% plus of your Demat account,
22:2780% plus of your Demat account,
22:29you have to pay a deposit.
22:31You have to pay a deposit.
22:33And the Demat account,
22:35what you're talking about,
22:37has less than 10,000 rupees of total holdings.
22:39That's also there.
22:41So the DII frenzy,
22:43or let's say you can say that
22:45domestic money is coming,
22:47but you ask me the much more money
22:49is coming through mutual fund road,
22:51which is a serious money.
22:53No, it's like I'm sitting in a car.
22:55I don't know where I have to go.
22:57Eventually, if I'm double my money also,
22:59I'll just move out.
23:01But if I have a goal,
23:03which is not happening with stocks,
23:05stocks are just people are thinking
23:07I'll make my money.
23:09I'll double it.
23:10I'll just move on.
23:12But in mutual fund,
23:14every scheme you're just aligning
23:16and all thanks to channels like you,
23:18which is working in the right spirit of investing.
23:20We are talking about linking your investment with goal.
23:22You'll not move on unless and until you achieve your goal.
23:24So that is why longevity mutual fund
23:26is much more vis-a-vis direct stocks.
23:28Okay.
23:30So be sensible.
23:31But be sensible.
23:33I think some of the solutions
23:35that we've talked about in the show today,
23:37I'm going to recap them
23:39because what is the point
23:41if you don't have a clear takeaway?
23:43Some is that you start financial literacy
23:45from the school level.
23:47Perhaps there should be some kind of,
23:49you know, a test that people should do
23:51before they open a Demat account.
23:53Do they even understand what is happening?
23:55And of course,
23:57scamsters need to be cracked down
23:59with no mercy.
24:00I mean, 2,200 crore rupees gone.
24:02Some of those investors
24:04get some of their money back.
24:06We'll have to wait and see how that case unfolds.
24:08But thank you so much,
24:10for speaking with us today on this special show.

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