- Toxic workplaces: Indian norm or sign of larger workplace issues?
- How will #Canada's Indian diaspora be affected by immigration cuts?
- How will #Canada's Indian diaspora be affected by immigration cuts?
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00:00And in general, you know, has brought the focus on long work hours that we see in corporates.
00:07Now, how should firms look to rebalance this work culture and perhaps have something that is more centered on employees?
00:16Thank you for having me, Nupur. Very interesting question and I've been following the story since yesterday.
00:24And like the report said, you know, if this letter hadn't come out, probably we wouldn't have known, you know, what all is actually happening at the workplace.
00:35But having been in HR, one is definitely aware about long hours, about stress at work, what it is doing mentally to employees.
00:47The kind of, you know, I mean, we know that depression today is a disease which you can't see on the surface.
00:56But a lot of youngsters are actually facing that day in, day out.
01:01It is very, very important to really realize this right at the top of any company.
01:07I mean, I wouldn't really pick up Big Four for this particularly. I think it really cuts across every corporate.
01:13The kind of culture that you build, it comes right from the top.
01:18HR is an enabler, is a facilitator in the entire process.
01:23And I will also take it down to the reporting managers who are working very, very closely with such youngsters who are there to build their careers.
01:33So they look up to their reporting managers on how they are being dealt and cared and how they are being integrated into the work culture.
01:43I think the saddest thing that I really read in this whole story was that nobody was there to attend Anna's funeral.
01:51Now, that definitely is very, very heartbreaking.
01:55That was definitely avoidable on behalf of EY.
02:00I think that has to be a huge wake up call that really signifies or indicates, you know, the sensitivity involved in an employee passing away and nobody really showing up in her last moments when she is part of the funeral.
02:17I mean, the whole family being there and there's nobody from the workplace.
02:21This can be very, very heartbreaking.
02:24And this, I'm sure, is a wake up call for the leadership at EY, for everybody involved there, right from HR to the managers across the partners and the senior directors.
02:36So I think this definitely the letter has been has been a wake up call for everybody.
02:43Absolutely. And, you know, the light that they made off the long working hours, as the letter reveals, and I'm talking only according to the letter, is obviously something that sort of seems to reward these long working hours.
02:54Jiten, coming to you now. Jiten, you know, Anna's mother's letter actually also focuses on the perils of a work culture that rewards these long working hours.
03:05And of late, we have seen debates about how India needs to adopt these 70 hour work weeks.
03:11Do you think that the focus essentially will now need to shift from quantity to quality?
03:26I'm afraid we can't hear you, Jiten. We're going to fix that audio connection with you.
03:30Oh, wait, wait, wait. Oh, sorry. No worries. Please do carry on.
03:34Great. So I was saying that having, I started, I did my MBA from FMS Delhi and I started off like a youngster.
03:43I was very young. I started when I was 21 and a half years of age and grew to become area manager with a big multinational company.
03:49And one year later, I was like, I want to change. And I shifted to brand management, work with a large media group.
03:56And if I look back and a lot of our discussions also. So, yes, I would say toxicity existed across levels.
04:04It has it has generally it has become better. But of course, when I talk of consulting companies and I have a lot of students, it is CAs, MBAs from top institutions, lawyers who are joining in.
04:16So generally, this is equal. And a number of the turnover is really high for freshers who are joining in.
04:22So if I was if I was a big consulting company, I would have woken up earlier.
04:27I mean, what I like you are consulting with law organizations, government, but what is happening inside?
04:32So this is very, very sad. What has happened? I know students who have come and shared they have been getting ulcers.
04:40They have not been able to eat properly. Sleeplessness, you know, sleep disorders have increased through and through.
04:47So this is something which is which is really, really sad, which has happened.
04:51And toxicity, you know, exists, but the seniors manage the toxicity.
04:56If I'm a fresher, I'm entering in. So I'm reporting to somebody. There's another person who's on top of that.
05:04So these are the people who make it easy for a newcomer to come in, will provide ways and means that, hey, this is the way to relax in between.
05:12This is the way to take out, vent out your frustration, reach out to us and so on.
05:18So how can it happen that a young person is joined in and is being is being, I would say, pulled here and there because of culture, because of seniors.
05:28And finally, and finally, it results in a person committing suicide, which is which is very, very sad.
05:36So so a lot of time there is lack of control in the kind of job design, which if I have joined it, I don't sometimes I don't even know that this is the kind of job I'll be doing.
05:48And I might be opted for it. Yeah. So these are the big challenges which are there.
05:52Sometimes it might be unsafe. I have people who have to travel to places where they didn't imagine they will ever travel to.
05:59Yeah. So, again, all these in a structured manner and having mental health resources available for for at least the new joinees or people who are two, three years in the organization is important, is relevant.
06:14And that has to happen. All right, Rajneesh, you know, as pointed out by Jithin, it appears that, you know, there was no mentorship program or enough support for a new young employee who had, you know, for who it was perhaps the first job.
06:28So what can companies do to ensure, you know, say, for instance, a buddy system or something like that to make it easier for these youngsters to join the workplace and then, you know, learn the ethos of the workplace and perhaps be able to differentiate between what is all right and what isn't.
06:51Absolutely, Nupur. You're spot on. I think it's very important that organizations definitely put in place certain processes. And how do you really, after you've really decided to onboard somebody, the whole story starts from how the onboarding happened.
07:09You know, what kind of communication happened, how the whole job description was really shared about the working hours, how you take breaks, for example. I think those are little, little things. But like you correctly mentioned, and which is what we also work with a lot of clients, is to also ensure that we just don't stop at onboarding, which perhaps the HR is driving.
07:30But you also got to build in a set of buddies in the system who are there in the organization for quite some time, are still young, and they have seen the way the things get worked in the company. I think those are the people who should be integrating these youngsters into the company. That's one.
07:49And the next layer is, of course, having mentors who are fairly mid-level senior people who've been in the system for a longish time, and who can be like a friend, philosopher, guide, and really onboard these youngsters into the system and ensure that the person is really settling in and really enjoying being at the workplace and enjoying really coming to work on a daily basis.
08:14These are all in the hands of folks who are there in the system. I think if we want to create that support system, of course, we can do it.
08:23Absolutely. Jiten, now, you know, for youngsters who are on to their first jobs, what should they keep in mind while dealing with a work culture that's completely alien to them? And how do they learn to say no? How do they learn to perhaps put themselves in the center of this role that they've just got?
08:44So, two or three things. First, create a network even before you're going to join. So, today, when students go for studies or even for jobs, we keep on guiding people to use LinkedIn extensively. So, create your own network of people. You should be talking, chatting to people, understanding everything in detail.
09:05Second, understanding where there are leeways. You know, a lot of young people are very smart and they will know that, hey, this is the way I can model things. This is the way I can play out. Third, don't be too serious and sensitive about things. I mean, people get so sensitive about it and so much into it. Hey, it's fine. Obviously, you are accepted in a big organization because you are also very good.
09:28So, hold on to your own ground and fine. Maybe it doesn't work out in an organization, you have another one. You might do your own startup, which a lot of people might not think immediately, but then that is feasible. And then, clear-cut boundaries that this is how I'm going to operate. This is what is acceptable to me.
09:51I have a very close friend who for almost nine years, she has worked and she comes from a lower middle class background. But even when she'd be cooking at her house and there was a need that while working also, she was cooking for our family. Our parents were there. At 9, 9.30 in the evening, her laptop would be open. I remember we met somewhere and at the restaurant, her laptop was still open.
10:16So, imagine. So, this girl had a severe case of spondylitis and back issues. And finally, we all used to be after her. Hey, why didn't you leave it? But for a person who would come from a certain socioeconomic group, it was so difficult for her. So, that is one.
10:33Second thing is, second thing is reaching out to mental health professionals. See, obviously, our society is something which is like a drastic step. So, before that, let's seek help. So, today there are organizations like your those which do online counseling and they reach out, they have tied up with a lot of organizations also.
10:55So, a lot of large corporates utilize their services, even institutions also. So, wherein they tie up and anybody who needs counseling service at day time, night time, they reach out. So, there are a lot of such organizations or individual psychologists who cater to people who are working with corporates.
11:13And a lot of people who are approaching also are people who are pretty young and they're just into the corporate and they've started learning the ropes and they are undergoing various upheavals in their own daily life. People shift places. I might come from a small city. I'm trying to adapt to a big city. Food might be an issue. Staying might be an issue and so on and so forth.
11:33So, reaching out to professionals, psychologists, talking to people online if it is not possible that you can't go and visit somewhere. I think that can be again a great step for young people to adapt and to sustain and then be successful in their careers.
11:52All right, Rajneesh. One final question. Now, balancing targets and prioritizing the well-being of employees is tricky. How can companies build more empathetic organization setups where everything can converge onto the same ambitious goal?
12:11I think that boils down to the amount of communication that is happening. And when I really talk about communication, it could be a very broad format of having a town hall, all hands meet. But at a very granular level, even having these very basic conversations with these youngsters matter a lot.
12:31And those conversations need to be absolutely genuine. And the youngster should feel that you are interested to know how am I doing. I think those are little, little things that need to be prioritized. I think like you correctly mentioned, profitability is important. Productivity is important. Every organization is out there. It's a business.
12:54But at the same time, I think if you're not taking care of people and if there is not a fine balancing act between profit and people, definitely the profit at the end will start getting affected if people are getting affected.
13:06So I think that's something that from a priority standpoint, I think people well-being, their wellness, their health, how are things on the family front. I think those are things that need to be definitely talked a lot rather than every time and all the time, the focus just remains on work and profit.
13:26So I think there's a balancing act that needs to be struck. At the same time, I think for the employees also, the youngsters, it's very, very important. If you are getting into a workplace, do get prepared that it is a tough place out there. It's not easy to survive. The whole thing that we talk about rat race hits you up front.
13:48And I think amongst the youngsters also, the whole culture of competitiveness is at a different level altogether. So there's this constant comparison that is happening and that starts also building pressure. So it's not only about the work, but also the whole pressure that is also building up at different relationships in somebody's life.
14:09So I think it's a very, very fine balancing act that organizations as well as the employees need to strike between how much of work I'm doing and how much of really life I'm leading that I should be really enjoying and really spending time towards both in equal measure.
14:26As both of you seem to suggest, you know, even employees need to understand that they need to strike the right life-work balance or work-life balance, as it's often called. And that may be, you know, what employees have to focus on, even as companies evolve more strategies to deal with work pressures and stresses. Thank you, Rajneesh, for joining us.
14:47And I'm going to ask you to stay back because our next big story is on Canada.
14:52Well, Canada has begun its crackdown on temporary residency. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced that they will be granting 35% fewer international student permits this year.
15:05Now, along with the international students, the government will also reduce work permits to foreigners. This move is bound to affect the Indian diaspora as it accounts for most number of immigrations to Canada.
15:17Now, the three questions that we are asking this evening are, how will Canada's new rules impact Indian students?
15:26Will dreams of Indian students be crushed by protectionist policies we are now seeing the world over? And what are the options in front of Indian students who wish to go abroad?
15:42In fact, before we go across to our panelists, let's go across to a report that was filed by NDTV's Vishal Vivek on Canada's latest immigration crackdown.
16:12Canada has revealed plans to substantially reduce international student permits for the coming year.
16:41And implement stricter regulation for foreign workers. The move is part of a broader strategy to manage the country's rapidly growing temporary resident population.
16:52These are the latest reports and also the fact that the Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau himself has gone on to Twitter and said that the country is granting 35% fewer international student permits this year.
17:07And next year, that number will be going down by another 10%. And as far as the facts are concerned, about 5,40,000 students go to Canada to study each year.
17:19So that would be brought down to about 4,30,000. This is what the latest reports are saying and the Canadian government also.
17:28So we can look at this from a broader perspective as in countries such as Australia and New Zealand, they have also adopted similar measures to curtail immigration and also the United Kingdom government.
17:43All right. Now to discuss this further, we are joined by Aditya Bhatti. He's a licensed immigration advisor and founder, director of AB's Visa Advisors.
17:53Praneet Mungali, he's an educational student consultant and trustee at the Sanskriti group of schools.
17:58And of course, we do have Jitin who is continuing to stay with us on this one.
18:04Good evening to all of you. And if I could go to Aditya first. Now, Aditya, obviously, these new policy decisions from Canada come on expected lines as we are seeing a large number of countries clamp down on immigration.
18:20What sort of an impact do you see on Indian students particularly?
18:27Quite honestly, this has been ongoing for nearly the beginning of this year onwards. So the impact is already there for everybody to see and numbers have gone down.
18:37There are reports which say that currently there is a 47 percent drop. Some other numbers are closer to about the 50 percent figure.
18:46So numbers have already dropped to a large extent. And in a way, it is good and in a way it is bad.
18:53Good in the sense that the genuine students who are bona fide students who intend to actually go to study to get a good academic qualification from countries like Canada,
19:03will still continue to consider Canada as an option and look at high quality education providers to pursue those programs from.
19:10They'll be mindful of the skill shortage requirements in the country and they will choose programs accordingly.
19:15Bad in the sense there's obviously a lot of bad mouthing that happens. A lot of negative rumors come up in the market.
19:23And that basically kind of sends out a message into the market wrongly that the country is not welcoming Indian students at all, international students at all, which is not really the truth.
19:35The truth is they want students. They want bona fide students. They don't want people who want to enter the country at the garb of a student visa,
19:43but actually intending to work while they're there to earn money. That's basically what it is. It's going to continue like this.
19:51And these measures are actually being employed by a lot of other countries.
19:56We heard that Canada is looking at about a cap of 470,000 students. Australia has announced the figure of about 270,000 students.
20:06So Canada is still by far a very, very big number compared to that Australia number.
20:11So students will continue to go. They just have to be mindful about picking the right program and the right provider.
20:16Right now, Praneeth Bengali, you know, we are seeing more of these protectionist sort of policies from around the world.
20:23You know, we've seen it from UK, Australia, Canada, even Poland. You know, they seem to be turning more inwards.
20:30Now, do you see these as pivotal shifts or do you think that they are likely to be perhaps more short term in nature?
20:39No, but specifically in Canada's case, these protectionist policies, which are borderline populist,
20:45are driven by the fact that the existing Canadian prime minister's approval ratings are really low.
20:51So there is pressure on him to give a slew of populist measures because it's the broader question is not just the reduction in numbers of the students and the temporary residents,
21:02but the ripple on effect on the cost of living, the cost of homes, the affordability, job employment, etc.
21:10So to that degree, it's protectionist and populist factored upon in actions.
21:16In other parts of the world as well, you cited UK as an example. The economic growth has substantially slowed down and UK has been facing turbulence post the Brexit.
21:28And, you know, there's pressure from all sections of politicians as well as society to reserve jobs for people who are a part of the UK.
21:38Having said that, and in continuation to the point the other panelists made earlier, whilst this obviously presents a risk in some sense,
21:48it's an opportunity for Indian universities and high quality Indian educational institutions to absorb these students who are otherwise looking to go outside.
21:59And this shift has to be seen in light of what are the regulatory changes that the Indian government is trying to facilitate to make it easier and friendlier
22:09for foreign universities to set up campuses in collaboration with Indian universities or other places.
22:16Because eventually, I think what is most important for us as a nation without worrying about what any other country is doing with their immigration policy is to upskill the quality of our manpower.
22:26And we have examples in our country of high quality institutions in collaboration with foreign universities like ISB Hyderabad and a couple of others which can be set up.
22:36There are many other players as well which are providing very high quality education and this demand supply realignment also offers opportunities for high quality Indian universities to come up.
22:48Absolutely. And let me put this question to Jiten now. Jiten, we have been seeing this since quite some while.
22:55In fact, from the beginning of the year, we are seeing these shifts in policies coming in from various Western governments.
23:01You, of course, do consult with a large number of students. Are they now looking elsewhere?
23:08Or are some of them at least hoping to be able to find that quality of universities back home?
23:16Because that has been a major concern that our education system has still not evolved that much to be able to attract a lot of these youngsters who look outwards for higher education.
23:30So in the last few years, I mean, the numbers has only increased.
23:35So somehow people who decide that I'm going to look at study outside India, wait after 12th grade or after graduation, or in some cases, you'll be surprised, after 10th grade also.
23:47Every year, me and my team are helping three, four students go to schools also after 10th grade, which was not a phenomenon, say, five, six years back.
23:57So it has increased. So that is one. Second thing is, see, there are countries who have gone forward and they've utilized, they understand that Indian students are smart students, they're hardworking.
24:11So which countries and where are people going and where would the exodus increase? So I'm trying to project this here.
24:19So French government signed an agreement called Classes Internationaux. So Jan 26, when the French premier was there.
24:26So our prime minister and agreement was signed between their president. And it was April 19th, a French embassy data program where they launched this program in front of about 60 principals from top schools all over.
24:40So Classes Internationaux is a program which is only for Indian students, where I as an Indian student, even without knowing French, I can go. One year I learn French and next three years I will do my course.
24:53Like it can be tech, it can be management, whatever. Of course, in French language, the cost is approximately 3.7 lakh distribution fees, 3.7 lakh to 5.5 lakh per annum, which is a significantly reduced cost compared to, say, if I talk of UBC in Canada, which is at least, I would say, six to 15 times higher.
25:19Or if I look at US, it's even more higher. Similarly, Germany. So Germany still, I mean, Germany has jobs, though Germany, again, language is an issue.
25:29Okay.
25:30But a lot of our students go to Germany. Japan is opening up in a big way.
25:34Okay.
25:35Finland, we keep on sharing that Finland is the next Canada. Finland, you get a PR. You stay there for four years, you get a PR.
25:42So Jiten, what you're seeming to suggest is that, you know, the focus for Indian students is shifting elsewhere. But Aditya, I wanted to ask you about, you know, rules for foreign workers also now being tightened.
25:52As the minister in Canada seemed to suggest that we need businesses to invest in Canadian workers. Now, is this a shift that we are seeing in other countries and are they likely to follow suit?
26:06See, it keeps on changing. As I think Praneet was saying, there's a lot of politics behind it. So that comes into role play.
26:16Having said that, of course, there is going to be regular demand on the politicians from the local citizens that there should be some support and some impetus to make sure that the employment opportunities are first being given to the citizens before they are being offered to international workers.
26:35So, yes, that's going to be there in all the countries. The degree varies and that degree keeps on changing as per whether there is enough local manpower to meet the skill shortage requirements of the country.
26:46The fact is, most of these countries have opened up their doors for us because they don't have adequate educated young manpower to meet their labour market requirements.
26:58And that is why they are looking to recruit international students and workers.
27:04So you think that this is going to be less temporary? Praneet, any final thoughts before we wrap up the show?
27:10I think just to accentuate everything that we've said that this provides us with risks as well as opportunities for lots of good Indian universities to try to absorb the students who are trying to go abroad and maybe to encourage entrepreneurs in India to try to cater to the demands or needs of students who are either trying to get specialised courses abroad which are not available here earlier.
27:36So there is less of a brain drain. The demographic dividend of our country continues to benefit us and it adds to the India growth story.
27:44So there is a lot of scope in India and perhaps we need to seize that. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us on The Big Story this evening.
27:55Well, with that, it is a wrap on The Big Story. Thank you for tuning in. But do stay with us as we bring you more on NDTV Profit.